Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 29 November 2017

396 contributions from 48 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs. The first question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

1. What plans does the Welsh Government have to promote Anglesey's food and drink industry? OAQ51371

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. We are promoting our food and drink industry across the UK, and globally, using growth businesses such as Halen Môn as a brand ambassador, and showcasing Dylan's restaurant's new retail products. This, with support for Anglesey's food festivals, demonstrates a comprehensive promotion of Anglesey's excellent food and drink.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much, Minister. I am aware that you visited Dylan’s prep kitchen in Llangefni at the end of last week. I’m certainly very proud of the economic development that has followed the growth of the Dylan’s business, which has now become a well-known brand across the north-west of Wales over the past few years. That site that you visited is a site that wasn’t built for Dylan’s, but it was a site development that was built on spec, where Dylan’s has actually developed its own business.

Now, I’ve raised with you in the past the need for sites and premises that are appropriate for food production in Anglesey so that other companies on the island can have somewhere where they can go to develop, to grow and to employ more people. I have been given some positive signals from you in the past, but, to date, there have been no developments. Can you confirm that you are still supportive of the principle and give me an update on any steps that the Government is taking, or could take, in order to ensure that premises are available for food production companies on Anglesey so that they can develop and grow?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. You're quite right, I did attend the prep kitchen for Dylan's restaurant in Llangefni. I also went to the restaurant in Menai Bridge and sampled some fantastic local seafood.

I noticed on that site in Llangefni there were also other food companies, but, as you say, it wasn't built specifically for that. And I'm obviously well aware that we met—I think it was probably about this time last year—and you brought forward the suggestion about making Anglesey a hub. I'm still very keen to do that, to have a national food and drink hub to respond to the opportunities, particularly from the major infrastructures we've got across north Wales. And, as you said yourself, Anglesey is renowned for its food and drink, not just for the couple of companies that we've mentioned.

We've obviously got Food Innovation Wales also based in Llangefni. We obviously back them, along with the other two centres across Wales, and they are a key strategic partner. I've also met with the local further education college to discuss what they're doing around food preparation. So, it is something that we're continuing to look at, and if you want to meet with me again for an update, I'd be very happy to do that.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

We've been in correspondence over recent months, on behalf of an Anglesey farmer—a lamb producer—who's highlighted the potential for Welsh lamb exports in, particularly, Saudi Arabia. He's also previously worked for the Meat Hygiene Service. He says the Saudis are far more interested in quality Welsh lamb carcasses than cuts, and, clearly, this will have implications for the importance of extending shelf life. But when he attended a Farming Connect meeting in June, the presentation by Hybu Cig Cymru on exports to Saudi Arabia made no reference to Saudi culture, where they like taking whole lamb carcasses out to the desert to cook.

In one of your replies to me, you said some red meat processors in Wales who export to distant markets are able to achieve a shelf life of 42 days for Welsh lamb products, but when I chased that up, you confirmed that only the Rhug Estate in Corwen is currently able to achieve that 42-day figure. Noting that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has written to me, saying that they're working with the Saudi food and drink authority with a view to gaining market access for UK lamb, what engagement are you having not only in that engagement with DEFRA and the Saudis, but to ensure that Welsh lamb is able to meet the time period and the whole-carcass needs, which will drive access to Saudi Arabia and similar parts of the world?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You raise several important points. Obviously, shelf life is something we're having to look at very carefully, particularly in light of Brexit. You'll be aware that a third of Welsh lamb currently is exported to the EU. So, with all the uncertainty around that, we are having to look at new markets and, obviously, the middle east is one area that we are looking at, and, certainly, my officials too are engaged in relation to that. Carcasses—you're quite right, again; we are looking at the whole of an animal, and I think it's very important that these conversations are held. I was talking with a company at the winter fair on Monday around carcasses also, because, as you say, it is something that the Saudi culture likes to have. So, I just want to assure you that those conversations are ongoing with my officials at the current time.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

2. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with Natural Resources Wales about the tree felling programme at Fforest Fawr in Tongwynlais? OAQ51376

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Responsibility for the Welsh Government woodland estate rests with Natural Resources Wales. I'm aware that larch trees infected by phytophthora ramorum are being felled at Fforest Fawr and Natural Resources Wales is managing this essential work. P.ramorum is the most serious tree disease problem to have affected forests in Wales.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks, Minister, for your response. Fforest Fawr is a well-used local walking area next to Castell Coch. Many locals are worried that NRW doesn't have any plan to replant the area following the culling. There is a campaign, which has been launched, calling for a replanting programme. Could I ask you to consult with NRW to ascertain what more might be done about the replanting?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you for your question. I'm aware that there is a campaign and that a petition has been launched. Natural Resources Wales are monitoring the situation and trying to go for the best option, which is natural regeneration. But, if this doesn't happen, they will look at other ways of restocking the tree population at Fforest Fawr.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I know that a public meeting was held in Tongwynlais, which was well attended, and that NRW did make a convincing case for the natural regeneration of the woodland, and I believe that the people who attended the meeting were satisfied. But I think it's important, as the Minister has said, that if there fails to be natural regeneration, they should reconsider whether any trees should be planted.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you to the Member for Cardiff North for her question. I know that you work very diligently day in, day out on behalf of your constituents, and I am sure you will monitor this situation, as I will be doing too. After the harvesting has taken place, NRW will encourage native species such as beech, oak, birch, wild cherry, rowan and hazel in the forest to naturally regenerate. But it will also monitor the regeneration in the forest before considering if any replanting is necessary and will also keep the local community updated with any developments.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Can I welcome the Minister to her new responsibilities and wish her well with them?

Can I echo what other Members have said? This is such an important site in south Wales. It's so popular, within its own right but also in its close proximity to Castell Coch. I think the key thing is that, after two or three years, there's a proper assessment, and all the people that have been concerned, all the community groups, are given that information, so that they can see it, and then we can all be assured that either natural regeneration has worked, or is working, or it needs to be supplemented, or a new approach has to be taken.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Absolutely, and, as I said to Members in previous questions, Natural Resources Wales will monitor that, and I will expect them to keep us updated, and I expect Members to also do the same as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd.

Cabinet Secretary, one of the biggest challenges facing Welsh farming is the Welsh Government's proposed designations for nitrate vulnerable zones, which, if implemented, could impose huge burdens on farmers and, as a result, force many out of business. Given that the Welsh Government's consultation ended almost a year ago, could you explain why the Welsh Government has yet to come to a decision regarding the proposed NVZ designations, and will you now commit to bringing a statement to the Assembly Chamber before the end of the year on the Welsh Government's position and explain why this decision has taken so long?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I've already given that commitment several times in this Chamber, so I'm very happy to give that commitment that I will certainly bring a statement forward before the end of this term, so within the next two weeks. The reasons why it's taken so long is that we received a large number of responses to the consultations, and we also received a large number of people's views and considerations to do things differently. I saw a presentation just last week—people are still coming forward with ideas—and, as I'm very open to these ideas, I wanted to give considerable time and consideration to these views.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I'm very pleased that the Cabinet Secretary will be bringing forward a statement to this Chamber by the end of the term, and I look forward to that statement.

One of the concerns surrounding these proposals is that adhering to the slurry/manure storage capacity rules could see farm businesses burdened with large capital investments in storage facilities in order to be compliant. Indeed, the National Farmers Union tell us that the average cost of upgrading facilities is almost £80,000. If the Welsh Government presses ahead with these designations, can you tell us what funding will be put aside to help those farmers forced to comply with any new capacity rules, given that the overall funding allocation to your budget has actually been reduced?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think there are a couple of points that we need to consider there. Already I have been having discussions around the capacity of farmers' slurry pits and I think many of them are at a level that exceeds what is required at the moment. So, I've seen that cost of £80,000; I've also seen the cost of £150,000. So, again, I think we need to be realistic and pragmatic about the cost, but I do recognise that we might have to give help in certain areas around investment in the slurry pits. So, again, it's something that I've been discussing with officials to see how we can help with funding, where required.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

You'll be aware that some Welsh farmers have already been taking steps to address the issue of nitrate pollution and to improve water quality. There's evidence of some very good work being done across Wales. For example, the Wales catchment-sensitive farming demonstration project is an example of a very successful voluntary scheme that was well received by farmers. Given that your consultation didn't consider voluntary arrangements and voluntary schemes, can you tell us why the Welsh Government didn't consider implementing a voluntary approach on this matter? Will you now consider working in partnership with farmers and with the agricultural industry to adopt voluntary measures instead?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I've constantly worked in partnership with the agricultural sector and with farmers. So, again, that's been something else that we have been considering over the last year, when we've looked at the vast array of responses that we've received. We did receive over 250 responses, but I've also had many conversations on a one-to-one basis and with groups of farmers over the past years.

I had to do the review; it is a statutory requirement under the nitrates directive. But we've also seen some significant agricultural pollution incidents this year, so I've had to bring everything together, and it's about getting that balance. But, as I said to the Member at the outset, I will be making a statement within the next two weeks.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.

Just carrying on with NVZs, as the Cabinet Secretary knows, this is causing considerable concern amongst those who might be affected by it. I would just like to support the approach that has been taken by our colleague from Preseli. It is open to the Cabinet Secretary, of course, as a consequence of this consultation, to avoid a heavy-handed approach, if she's convinced that we can achieve the objectives of the habitats directives and environmental directives that are concerned here by voluntary means.

I'm sure she's aware of the experiment that has been undertaken in the Cleddau by farmers, which has successfully reduced nitrate levels on their farms to below those that are the limits in EU rules and regulations. They've achieved these outcomes at a fraction of the cost that they would have incurred if they'd had to install massive new vats for the storage of slurry et cetera. So, can she, without wishing in any way to anticipate the results of the inquiry, reassure us today that schemes of this kind will certainly be borne in mind so that we can reduce the cost to farmers of necessary environmental controls?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I've considered many different schemes, and farmers have come to me around what they have done around this issue. As I said in my answer to Paul Davies, I've seen figures of £80,000 and I've seen figures of £150,000. I spoke to a farmer, I think from Monmouthshire, who had done it at a fraction of that cost. So, I do want to reassure Members that I am very open to the suggestions that have come forward and that's why it has taken much longer than I did anticipate in the first place.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I'm sure that everybody wants the right decision to be made at the end of the day, and if a delay results in that, nobody's going to complain. Of course, the precondition is that we get the right decision at the end of the day. But, this particular experiment that I referred to a moment ago in the Cleddau has managed to reduce the nitrate leaches into the soil and the waterways by nearly 90 per cent. So, if that were to be extended countywide into Pembrokeshire, that would be a massive advantage to us. Schemes of this kind, I think, show the benefits of working with the industry to achieve desirable outcomes that will please those for whom environmental concerns are at the top of their agenda, without having to use a stick to force people to do what they don't want to do. This is in the best interests of farmers as well, because the National Farmers Union have developed this blue flag scheme, just like the red tractor, which would be a very useful method of marketing our products as well—that they're produced with environmentally sensitive policy. So, that's good news for farming as well as for the environment.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I absolutely think you have to work with the industry in relation to policy and strategies, and it was just last week that the Minister for Environment and myself had a presentation around the blue flag scheme. So, we are still considering everything that's come before us over the past year. And I reiterate again: I will be making a statement in the next two weeks.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

It is important, of course, that environmental concerns are taken seriously, and, therefore, that the methods employed, if they're not controlled by statute or regulation, are properly audited and therefore the results can be regarded as credible. This particular scheme in the Cleddau is being audited by Natural Resources Wales, so there again, if the regulatory bodies are working hand in glove with the industry, at the end of the day, everybody is happy. And, after all, happiness is what we as politicians want to produce for our constituents. So, I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will, when she announces her result, be able to be the Cabinet Secretary for happiness in the countryside.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, yes, I'd like to think I am the Cabinet Secretary for happiness in the countryside.

I think, at the beginning of that last question, you made a very important point about the balance. I always used to say, at that time, that I was Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, so it was absolutely imperative that I did that balancing. Now, obviously, we've got a Minister for Environment, but that doesn't mean that the environment is any less important to me as Cabinet Secretary.

So, it is absolutely vital that any policy you bring forward is a balanced approach. It's certainly been very helpful having so many responses to the consultation and having so many individual farmers—and then, obviously, the two farmers who came to see me around the blue flag scheme—bringing forward their ideas about how they've managed to reduce the nitrates, et cetera. So, yes, you're right, I will be bringing forward that statement.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I make the Cabinet Secretary very happy by saying I won't ask her about NVZs, but wait for her statement in a couple of weeks' time? But I'll make her less happy, perhaps, by asking her this: why has her department suffered the biggest single cut in the draft Welsh Government budget, and what does that really say about the commitment of the Government to the environment and rural affairs?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, you'll appreciate that we've all had to make some very difficult decisions. I was in front of committee last week, having budget scrutiny, and you'll be aware that there was lots of noise around the fact that my budget had been cut by 5 per cent; it hadn't, because I transferred £35 million of waste funding into the revenue support grant. But still, I have had a cut of 1.5 per cent. I hope, again, I've balanced it. I've got a very broad portfolio, but I hope that no part of the portfolio feels that it's had cuts that aren't proportionate.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Nevertheless, her portfolio has suffered from the same 5 per cent cuts on local government grants, which have been recycled to help social services and health. She has confirmed, implicitly, that, in fact, her department has had the biggest cut of any department within the Welsh Government in this budget. We know that there are difficulties in the budget, but it's singular that this department has been singled out for that largest cut.

Now, the finance Secretary told the Finance Committee last week that £100 million that has been held back in reserves in anticipation of further efficiency cuts can now be made available, as these cuts are not now expected, following the budget last week. So, can I ask her, as the Cabinet Secretary: what is she bidding for out of this £100 million? Last year, with a bit of Plaid Cymru chivvying along, she got a bit of extra money for flood prevention schemes, as I recall. What is she looking to reinstate now to her budget?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

When I go back to my office after this question session, I will be meeting with officials ahead of writing to the finance Minister. I think I was the first to put a bid in, so you'll be pleased to hear that. I have confirmed that my department has had the biggest cut, because it has—it's a fact. So, I'm not going to try and hide behind that, but I think we have managed to balance things so that, as I said, no one part of the portfolio has had a bigger hit. We've tried to share the pain across, if you like. I didn't come into politics to make cuts—nobody did—but we are faced with the reality.

So, as you say, there's this £100 million now. What will I be looking to reinstate? Well, again, one of my priority areas, probably shared by many Members, is around warm homes. We need to be looking at what we are doing in retrofitting our housing stock, particularly to be able to meet the low-carbon budgets that, obviously, we'll be setting. So, that's one area I'm looking at. Flooding, obviously—we had some horrendous flooding last week. When I was up in Llangefni on Thursday, Llangefni suffered incredibly, and the Member for Ynys Môn has already written to me regarding the flooding in Menai Bridge—I think that's where specifically you raised. So, I will be looking, certainly, at flooding, also. But if Plaid Cymru want to come forward with any views, I'll be very happy to do that—obviously, you supported our budget.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

You're quite right, we do have a budget agreement, and I'm very pleased with some of the things that we've got from that. Some of the things you mentioned, Cabinet Secretary, however, are important, but, on the whole, they're capital. You could be using the ability of the new much-talked-about but strange capital that's come to the Welsh Government, this transactional sort of capital, to look at how that could go into warm homes, for example. So, that still leaves you, I think, bidding for this £100 million, and I look forward to seeing the impact of your lobbying on the finance Cabinet Secretary in the final budget.

But, of course, though you have been successful in paying the basic farm payments, and you announced that in the winter show this week, there are wider questions about ongoing funding as we leave the European Union. It seems increasingly clear to me that, in fact, we cannot bank the promises that have been made about ongoing common agricultural policy and farm payments beyond 2020. There's been much talk about 2022, but, in fact, when you look at the guarantees, they are rock solid, perhaps, until 2020, but, after that, they look rather shaky to my mind. So, can I ask her whether she agrees with that analysis from the Westminster perspective and whether she is now in a position to give an unequivocal guarantee, in this Assembly, that at least for this Assembly term—this Assembly term—this Welsh Government will continue the current envelope of farm payments?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, for this Assembly term we will—so, until 2021. I absolutely agree with you around 2020 and 2022. We have had assurance that we will have that funding until the end of the Westminster Parliament in 2022, but then you hear different noises coming around. But, as far as I'm concerned, the Treasury has given assurance to fully fund direct payments until 2022.

I'm very pleased you mentioned the basic payment scheme. I was very pleased to announce at the winter fair on Monday that 91 per cent of our farmers will be getting their payment on Friday. That's the first day possible that they can do that. So, we'll be paying, I think, £201 million to over 14,000 of our farmers, and I would just like to pay tribute to my team who have done that. They're not a very big team, but, again I think when—I haven't seen the other countries, what figures they're bringing forward, but I would imagine we'll be way ahead of the game again.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on air pollution levels in South Wales West? OAQ51348

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Average levels of air pollution across Wales, including in south-west Wales, have improved over recent decades, but we still face significant challenges. We must do more to improve air quality in all regions and I have tabled a debate in December to discuss plans for cross-government action.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Can I thank the Minister for that reply? Further to that, recent data released by the Royal College of Physicians show that two areas in my region, Port Talbot and Swansea, are recognised amongst the worst areas in the UK in terms of air quality and are breaching World Health Organization guidelines at present. With Healthy Air Cymru stating that the Welsh Government needs to lead the way on reducing air pollution in these areas, what assurances can you provide that you recognise the scale of the problem, and do you agree that you need to raise the bar in terms of your collaborative work with local authorities to tackle the air pollution issues within these areas?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

May I thank the Member for his question? You're absolutely right to raise this important issue, and it's something that will be high on my agenda going forward in this portfolio. We know that historically Port Talbot has a high level of PM10 pollution, and this is generally, obviously, attributed to the industrial nature of the area. I know that Welsh Government officials regularly meet with steelworks operators, Natural Resources Wales and Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council to identify potential sources of, and solutions for, the high PM10 levels. As I said, we are tabling a debate next week to discuss this. We will look at, actually, not just what local authorities are doing in terms of the clean air framework, but also what we can do across Government to meet those challenges and to create healthy, better air quality throughout Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Minister for her answers, in particular about Port Talbot, and identifying the actions you're taking. However, it's not just PM10s; it's PM2.5s as well. And knowing the area, it's not just the industry and the steelworks; it's also the motorway, which is caught on that narrow strip, and the roads on the side of it. So, one of the ways you can actually look at it is to actually look at planning, and maybe talk to your Cabinet Secretary colleague about planning regulations. Look at the cumulative impact of any decisions taken upon air pollution, not just the individual project, because the more we see coming in, which creates more pollution, it adds to what's already there, and what's already there is not getting lower. So, please look at the issue so we can ensure that we do start seeing a decrease, not an increase.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, Dai Rees, for your question. You're absolutely right that we need to look at cross-government, cross-departmental working on this, and I'm sure I will speak to my Cabinet Secretary colleague on how we can actually go forward with this, not just across Government in terms of planning, but also transport, health and local government.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Can I congratulate you on your new job as well? Can I begin by saying that scrutiny has been brought to bear and, actually, the dreaded Nowcaster system in Swansea council, with which I appreciate you may not personally be familiar, is now up and running after several years of delay, and advising drivers in real time whether the air quality in that particular part of Swansea is safe enough to drive through. It doesn't tell them when the air quality is good enough, but it does tell them when it's bad. Your department has actually refused a further application for funding for this particular project. I appreciate you may not know much about it yourself, but do you think your department would be more likely to support an application to expand upon the Nowcaster system if the data collected by the machines could more widely inform traffic management in the city—for example, providing evidence for a Swansea bay regional metro, perhaps—or if it could help with the clean air framework in helping create enforceable targets for particulate reduction? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, Suzy. Thank you for your question and thank you for your warm words of congratulations. I have had a brief—I am familiar with the Nowcaster system. You raised some very valid points there, and I think if you want to follow it up now with a letter to me—. And I think, going forward, as I said, I'm really keen to get this high on the agenda and making sure we work across Government and with local authorities and across the board on how we tackle this important issue, not just in south-west Wales, but across Wales.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

I, too, wish to offer my congratulations to you. Cabinet Secretary—sorry; Minister—people living within my region have to contend with some of the worst air pollution in the UK. For a few days this month, children attending school in Margam had to contend with PM10s at twice the safe daily limit. According to Public Health Wales, this is one of the biggest public health challenges facing our nation, killing 2,000 people per year. Of course, the biggest contributor to poor air quality is transport, which is made much worse by the level of congestion we are seeing now on our roads. Minister, how will your Government ensure that new developments do not contribute to this congestion, and how can the planning system be utilised to limit congested road infrastructure?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you again for your congratulations. Just to point out: I am the Minister, not the Cabinet Secretary. I don't want to upset my colleague at this early stage. Children and individuals are particularly susceptible to the effects of air pollution, and so local authorities do need to take a risk-based approach in looking at how we monitor the situation. But absolutely, I think we need to, going forward—. As I've said previously, it is a really important issue, and obviously with respect of planning, it is in the Cabinet Secretary's remit, so I'm sure we will be working together closely on this, going forward.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

4. What action is being taken by the Welsh Government to protect peatlands? OAQ51359

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

The Welsh Government is committed to bringing all peatlands supporting semi-natural habitats into sustainable management by 2020 and has established an integrated programme of delivery to ensure this target is met. The current programme is improving the condition of our peatlands, and we have secured funding for further action.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I just remind you, and perhaps everybody else, that I did congratulate you when you came to committee? So I will add a further congratulations in here, but it has already been done.

What I was going to ask is: what progress has been made towards the target of getting all peatlands in Wales into restoration management by 2020, and do you expect that to be done on a linear basis, or do you expect it exponentially or inverse exponentially?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, and thank you again for joining in with the congratulations.

Can I thank Mike Hedges for his interest in this aspect of Welsh Government work? The Welsh Government is committed to bringing all peatlands support and semi-natural habitats into sustainable management by 2020, and has established an integrated programme of delivery to ensure this target is met. We have strong evidence from our monitoring programme that our integrated approach is having a positive impact, improving the condition and resilience of our peatlands. Our land management scheme, Glastir, is making a significant contribution to this programme, with over 65 per cent of our target area already under Glastir management. And I think our EU funds are playing an important role in supporting us to improve the condition of approximately 690 hectares of our most important peatland sites.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, having previously just now congratulated you, I think I should now switch into attack mode. [Laughter.] Otherwise, you will be given false reassurance about how you will be treated in this Chamber.

I think this is a really important question. Peatlands are the most important terrestrial carbon store in the UK—20 times more carbon stored there than in UK forests. You say that you have secured funding, but a lot of the funding at the moment for the management scheme is through EU LIFE funding. I just wonder what's going to happen to that. Are there any plans for 2020-1? Obviously, restoring these peatlands and then maintaining them—the maintaining bit is going to require ongoing funding.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thanks for the question. I'm under no illusions that I should just make the most of the warm words of congratulations until we move on to real business in the Chamber.

It really is a very important area, and really important that we are able to sustain that going forward. I'm sure the Member appreciates that, being new to the portfolio, I'm still in discussions on how we take that forward after 2020. So, I'm happy to follow that up in writing to you.FootnoteLink

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government’s bovine TB eradication programme in Mid and West Wales? OAQ51366

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Mid and West Wales conjointly encompasses high and intermediate TB areas. Here, we are focusing on developing bespoke action plans for persistent TB breakdowns, which contain measures aimed at clearing up infection. Action plans are agreed in consultation with the farmer, their private vet, and the Animal and Plant Health Agency.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. Will she agree with me that, although there is no easy answer or simple solution to the eradication of TB in cattle, one promising way forward is a greater concentration upon genetics? The Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board has put together a genetic index; it is funded by UK farmers, of course, to undertake research and development on their behalf. This will enable us to target strains of cattle that have a greater propensity to resist TB. Therefore, this must for the future be an important element in the Government's overall strategy to eradicate this terrible disease.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You raise a very important point, and I think you're right: there is no simple solution. Just this morning, I have had a meeting with officials, and that included people who were doing research into this area. You will be aware that, as part of the refresh of the eradication programme, one of the things I promised to bring forward was a target for when I would like to be officially TB free here in Wales, and that is an element of the discussions that we've been having. So, I think it is about bringing many enhanced measures together, but certainly research and development. Going forward, we need to be looking at absolutely everything and learning from other areas and other countries also.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I certainly welcome the new scheme to tackle bovine TB. I think we all want to see this cruel disease eradicated in both the wildlife population and in cattle. My concern is that no additional pressure is put on farmers who, for too long, have suffered the effects of bovine TB.

Now, you've already answered questions and talked about the significant cut to your budget. Can I ask, in relation to that, in relation to the draft budget, where there is a significant cut to your department, how do you feel that is going to affect how you are able to tackle bovine TB?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

There won't be any cut to the funding in relation to eradicating TB. You'll be aware that in the refreshed programme, in part of the programme, one of the things was reducing compensation by 50 per cent, for example, but that's more—. We are looking at—10 per cent, I think it is, of the budget to eradicate TB comes from the EU. So, I could be losing that in the future. So, we need to look at how we can make sure we do have enough funding. But it was one of the questions I was asked last week by the committee in budget scrutiny, but I will just have to find that from the animal health and welfare budget expenditure line. So, I don't think there will be any impact on that at all this year.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

One of the saddest things that one can do as a Member representing this region is to receive correspondence from farmers who are suffering as a result of TB on their farms and seeing what happens to their livestock. I received one such message over the past fortnight, talking about the herd being affected and six cows being destroyed on the farm, and they were about to calve too, and that was heartbreaking for the farmer responsible for those cattle.

But one of the things that was also very saddening for her was the fact that the tests that led to the destroying of those cattle were inconclusive tests. Now, I know that we do have to take steps, but I also know that there are more accurate tests available, which are used, for example, in North America. So, what work are you doing to look into whether now, under the new scheme that you have, we are ready in Wales, as a nation, to move towards different tests for TB that are more accurate as we deal with the disease?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I do not underestimate the distress that having a TB breakdown causes to farmers and their families, and I, too, received, I would imagine, the same correspondence that the Member has done. I met with the chief veterinary officer just this morning to discuss it, because it was indeed very distressing correspondence, and I will be writing directly to the farmer myself.

Again, going forward, we need to look at the very best testing that's possible, and if there are examples in other countries, I would want to obviously consider if they could be brought forward to Wales as part of those enhanced measures I referred to in relation to the refresh of the programme.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Steffan Lewis is not in the Chamber to ask question 6 [OAQ51352]. Question 7—Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

7. What guidance does the Welsh Government issue regarding planning applications for housing developments? OAQ51343

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Welsh Government’s planning policy for housing is set out in 'Planning Policy Wales'. Further guidance is provided in technical advice notes. 'Technical Advice Note 1: Joint Housing Land Availability Studies' provides advice on calculating housing land supply. 'Technical Advice Note 2: Planning and Affordable Housing' provides advice on the delivery of affordable housing.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. Well, commenting in June in our mutual local paper, after the First Minister had approved a planning application in Llay on the basis of a recommendation by an independent inspector, you said that controversial issues such as this will continue until a council adopts a local development plan. I recently, at the request of residents, attended a public inquiry in Penyffordd, Flintshire. I know you can't comment on that, but the concern was expressed to me that, because their local development plan had not been concluded, quote, developers were taking advantage of the situation by citing five years' supply and loopholes in TAN 1 to get the planning through.

In October the leader of Conwy County Borough Council wrote to you saying that the calculation methodology of five-year land supply within TAN 1, revised by the Welsh Government in January 2015, is undermining local development plans across Wales. And in your response, which was actually quite helpful, you said that the lack of a five-year housing land supply may be one of the considerations—one of the considerations—determining a planning application; however, applications that do not meet the relevant policy requirements may be refused by the authority and planning inspector. Could you expand on that? How should a local authority, an applicant, and particularly a planning inspector, interpret that statement in this context?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Presiding Officer, if I could just take the opportunity—the first example Mark Isherwood gave was in my constituency, but obviously this decision was taken by the First Minister, not by me.

In relation to the general point you raise about TAN 1, it is a very difficult situation if the five-year land supply isn't demonstrated, and certainly it's happening not just in north-east Wales, and north Wales, as you referred to, it's happening in other local authorities too. Unfortunately, if a local planning authority hasn't got a five-year housing land supply, they are open to speculative planning applications for housing development. However, all such applications should be assessed against all relevant policy considerations, including the need to increase housing land supply, and the principle of sustainable development. That was the point I was trying to make.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Cabinet Secretary, there have been quite a number of significant housing developments, or proposed developments, in the Taff Ely and Pontypridd area. One of the issues, of course, that arises during that process is the capacity in respect of local public services. In particular, I have in mind general practitioner services. Will they be able to cope with the actual additional housing in that particular capacity?

Now, it seems to me that one of the concerns we've had—and I've heard it expressed by a number of GP practices now—is that they are not statutory consultees in those planning processes. It seems to me, with the scale of housing developments we have, that it's very important that we actually have a review as to who actually are statutory consultees, and that serious consideration should now be given to including bodies like local general practitioner practices to participate within that. It's a directly relevant part of the process and very necessary information to have, but which isn't included as a matter of course at the moment.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Yes, I agree—the capacity of primary care facilities is an important material consideration when considering the planning merits of a proposed development. Obviously, the local health board is responsible for providing primary care services for its local population, so I would expect them to engage in the preparation of any development plans. They know what capacity they've got. It's important that a GP surgery feeds that information through to the local health board.

We are having discussions at the current time as to whether health boards should be statutory consultees for major planning applications.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

8. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the difference between world food prices and EU food prices? OAQ51360

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Food price differences between countries or blocks like the EU and global prices are driven by currency values, supply and demand, trade rules and internal market regulations. The EU Commission monitors European food prices and the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations runs an international food price index of major commodities.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

And that monitoring shows that food prices in the EU are substantially higher than outside the EU. Once we leave the EU, does the Cabinet Secretary agree that it will be for the UK Government to determine the extent to which we apply World Trade Organization tariffs against imports from outside the EU, and it's up to that Government whether to apply those at all or whether to negotiate free trade deals with particular countries? Does she also accept that, in the unlikely event of there being WTO tariffs between the UK and the EU, while that would be very difficult for some sectors of the agricultural economy, notably lamb, other sectors, notably beef and dairy, would potentially have significant opportunities as imports from countries such as the Republic of Ireland were restricted?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think Brexit—it's a massive issue. It's really threatening our industry and I think it's causing a great deal of uncertainty. It is obviously for the UK Government to have those trade discussions and bring forward a trade deal. However, we've made it very clear to the UK Government the shape that we think these negotiations and these discussions need to take.

I think everybody accepts—I'm sure, even on this side of the house—that the political situation we've got at the moment is creating a lot of tension. We are having those ongoing discussions. Obviously, the First Minister, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and I primarily are having discussions around trade, and what tariffs will be imposed. You're quite right: I'm really fearful for the lamb sector, and some of our scenario planning is of great concern. We also know that the British Retail Consortium has suggested that, without a new trade agreement, if the UK and EU imposed WTO tariffs, the average cost of food imported by retailers could increase by 22 per cent.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Unlike Mark Reckless, I'm not looking forward to the world of chlorinated chicken and hormone-fed beef, so I hope that we continue to have the high quality of food standards that we currently enjoy.

The messages coming from the British Ports Authority if we were to leave the customs union are not very optimistic, in the sense that whilst we currently have a free passport of goods to and from Britain, were we to crash out of the European Union this could actually bring all transactions to a horrible halt. And where we're talking about fresh produce, why would anybody bother to import fresh produce if they don't think they're going to be able to get it to market in time? I just wondered what assessment the Government has made of the impact of leaving the customs union, and the impact it would have on the food that we currently import, particularly fresh produce from the European Union.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you for that question. This forms part of our scenario planning, which I mentioned in my answer to Mark Reckless. Parts of this are indeed very, very scary. We are making our views very well known to the UK Government at every level that we should remain in the customs union. We need that free market that we've got right on our doorstep, and I would always hope that we will have a relationship with the EU. But from the discussions I had at the winter fair on Monday, people are very fearful at the uncertainty about the way the current discussions seem to be going, but we are, as a Welsh Government, particularly concerned that Brexit will drive food prices much higher unless we have a really excellent trade deal.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, and the first question is from Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the work of the taskforce for the valleys in Rhondda? OAQ51381

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The taskforce published a detailed delivery plan on 7 November. It identified how we will take forward actions in three priority areas: delivering good quality jobs and the skills to do them; supporting better public services; and strengthening communities. Many and most actions in the plan will positively impact the people living in the Rhondda valleys.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

I thank you for your letter, Cabinet Secretary, which I received this morning, outlining how the recently published Valleys taskforce delivery plan will benefit people in the Rhondda constituency. In your letter, you talk about a number of things that you've just outlined there: improving childcare through a pilot scheme in Ferndale, supporting local builders, and

'improving public service provision through community hubs',

whatever that means. All of this is really vague, Cabinet Secretary, and I can't see how it's going to impact at all on the 33.1 per cent of Rhondda working-age population who are economically inactive. That's a figure that's much higher than the Welsh average of 24.8 per cent, and the UK figure which is 22 per cent. The reasons for this economic inactivity are historic, and the economic problems as a result are chronic. That is why the Rhondda needs specific action from your Government. The results of this plan will be determined by the number of people who end up in good jobs. Can you tell us by how much do you hope to reduce economic inactivity in the Rhondda after you've implemented the Valleys taskforce plan? Can you give us a figure, please?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm sure the Member for the Rhondda will join me in being very grateful for the way that many people from the Rhondda valleys have contributed to shaping our vision for the future. I'm sure that she's read the plan that we've outlined that we published on 7 November, and I'd be surprised if she could describe that plan as being vague. There are many tens of actions there with timescales and targets that outline exactly how we'll be answering the questions that she raises.

But she does raise an important point, of course, because economic inactivity is a fundamental issue facing all communities in the Valleys, including the Rhondda constituency she represents. We have put in our plan a target for creating 7,000 additional jobs over the coming four years in order to ensure that the communities of the Valleys have the same opportunities to access high-quality work as communities elsewhere in Wales. That target is in the plan and the timescales are in the plan. I would advise the Member for the Rhondda to read it.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, in your original speech on your taskforce activities, you identified the natural environment in the Valleys, and in particular the Rhondda valleys, as a good example of that, where large areas of common land exist at the very top of the Valleys, a hugely under-utilised asset that exists across south Wales. I'd be grateful to understand exactly, now some time has lapsed since your original identification of that environmental asset, how the Government is going to make better use of it to encourage greater economic activity within the Valleys, but, above all, a better lifestyle for people living in the Valleys by using that wonderful natural resource of the commons that exist across south Wales.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I would agree very much with the point that the Member for south Wales makes. Not only the common land, but the land across the environment of the Valleys of south Wales is a huge asset not only for those of us who were born in, brought up in, live in and represent the Valleys, but for the whole country. Through creating what we've called at the moment a landscape park in the Valleys, I hope that we will be able to maximise the potential of not only common land, but the environment as a whole, to ensure access for people in the Valleys to access the local environment, but also to protect and enhance that environment, to work with landowners and farmers and others in the area to ensure that we are able to appreciate and value the environment that we have in the Valleys, but also to ensure that we are able to deliver value for the communities that live alongside and within it. I hope that the landscape park is and will be a catalyst for action to enable all the ambitions that the Member has outlined, and which I share, to be met.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on electoral reform in local government in Wales? OAQ51357

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm currently considering the responses to the consultation on electoral reform. I intend to make a statement on the next steps in February.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Thanks. Cabinet Secretary, I recently responded to the consultation. Question 33 stated: do you agree that it should not be permissible to serve both as an Assembly Member and councillor? Aside from that being very leading and unbefitting of a serious consultation, it's the Government's position, I understand, to ban AMs from also being councillors. I'll just point out that you're carrying out two roles: a ministerial role, which says that Ministers must keep separate their roles as Minister and Assembly Member. Effectively, they're two different jobs. Here, there are Members of the House of Lords—both a lord and a baroness—who are serving in your Government; we have a Member of the European Parliament who is unable to be here today; and we are successfully being presided over by an Assembly Member, who is also the Presiding Officer—[Laughter.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Carry on. I'm intrigued as to where you're going with it. [Laughter.]

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

In terms of roles, we also have company directors and people otherwise employed. So, really, to get to the nub of the question—[Laughter.] Thank you. What is it that offends the Government so much about an AM being a councillor? And, really, are you planning to stop AMs from acting as councillors simply to frustrate democracy and do through Government and legislation what you cannot do through the ballot box?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, Councillor McEvoy will hear my conclusions at the same time as anyone else. I will say this to him: I believe it is important that people who are here serve democracy by not having any conflict of interest. It is my view that serving as a local authority member and a Member of this place creates a conflict of interest.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I remind Members how overwhelmingly the alternative vote form of proportional representation was rejected in the referendum, and how the single transferable vote is based on 'guess how many seats you can win'? Will the Welsh Government legislate that a supermajority vote by councillors and councils of two thirds will be necessary if councils want to change their voting system?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, I have already disappointed my good friend from Swansea East with my views on proportional representation; I don't propose to disappoint him again this afternoon. But, I will say to him that when we look at how we reform and deepen our democracy, I believe that we have to be bold and radical, and not conservative, and look and embrace change.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Can I welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his new role? I once named you the Minister Emeritus, you may remember, and it seems you're clearly fitting with that name. [Interruption.] I never called him a boomerang. You said that.

Cabinet Secretary, the history of local government in Wales is one of reorganisation after reorganisation, reform after reform over very many years. I was very pleased when your predecessor kicked into the long grass the idea of local government reorganisation in Wales. Are you planning on revisiting that issue over the next few years? And would you agree with me that whatever you do decide or do not decide to do with local government organisation—and the electoral system that that may entail—that what local government in Wales needs is stability, so that elected officers and councillors in those authorities can get on with the job of delivering local services for local people, which they're elected to do?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Yes, I do agree with that. I believe that we do require stability, but stability that is borne of a robust ability to deliver high-quality services. We heard from the WLGA last week that they do not believe that the current delivery of services is sustainable, and I think that we need to listen to those words. And, certainly, that is the consideration that I will be taking as I move forward with policy in this area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

An opportunity now for the party spokespeople to ask questions. Plaid Cymru's spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to return, if I may, to the Valleys taskforce implementation plan. I think all of us would agree that it contains, at a high level, very, very laudable aims in terms of our communities, and we thank members of the taskforce, and, indeed, all those who took part in the various consultations that occurred across the Valleys areas.

But as the Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure, will concede, the key will be in the detail, of course, of how the plan is delivered. There are 68 action points in the plan as a whole, but you refer to specific targets. Maybe I can help him out here because, actually, the plan itself, on page 46, actually shows that there are only two specific targets. After going through all the well-being indicators, there are only two. And 7,000 additional jobs, 2,000 of which will be created as a result of entrepreneurship activity. Could he say, just for clarity, are those net additional jobs—in the jargon? Are those jobs created rather than jobs created, safeguarded and assisted? Seeing as this is the only target in the plan, what budget has been set aside to create those jobs? Even if we take the standard, the £30,000 or £40,000 per job, which the Welsh Government uses, you're talking of hundreds of millions of additional funds. If, actually, we only achieve the level of job creation that we've seen in the enterprise zones—£90 million-odd in Ebbw Vale and only 170 jobs created in that case—then you're talking of billions, and yet there's no additional money set aside that I can see in the Welsh Government's draft budget.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful for the question. The £90 million in Ebbw Vale, of course, also includes parts of the dualling of the A465 road, which was postponed by Plaid Cymru. In terms of the direct question you asked, whether it's net jobs, the answer is 'Yes, it is net jobs.' And in terms of the funding for that, the funding will be found from within the budgets of the Cabinet Secretaries that will be contributing towards that.

What the taskforce of the Valleys seeks to do is to shape and to drive Government policy to enable us to achieve our ambitions in the Valleys. I know that you share those ambitions, and I'm grateful to you for the points that you've made in the past on that. We're currently leading a programme of seminars in each one of the seven strategic hubs to look at exactly how each hub will contribute, both to the jobs target you've outlined, but also to other targets that are outlined in the overall vision. When we've completed that task—I hope by the end of February—I'll be able to make a further statement on that.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Cabinet Secretary, I suppose you and I kind of represent the arc of the Valleys, the former coalfield area—you representing the eastern Valleys, me representing the west. I was wondering if the geography, really, of this strategy at the moment is out of kilter. As we've heard from the leader of my party, really, there are areas in the Rhondda, Cynon, et cetera, which are not represented at all in the seven strategic hubs, which, to my mind at the moment, seem to have been chosen, if not quite at random, certainly in an ad hoc way, both in their location, but also, possibly, in their sectoral focus. We did have the announcement yesterday about two entrepreneurial tech hubs, which will be in the south-western Valleys and in the eastern Valleys. And there are also the community hubs—an unspecified number of community hubs—that we'll have there as well. But, even if you look at the map, Cabinet Secretary, Ammanford is actually outside the map, and many of the other western Valleys are actually not included within the definition of the Valleys area. So, surely, shouldn't we have actually, in order to underpin the strategy, a strategic development plan looking at the geography of the Valleys, making sure, for example, that these hubs are calibrated, in terms of the new metro stations, with the areas of investment? And who's going to deliver all this? With all these hubs, surely we need a hub of hubs, Cabinet Secretary—an agency or team of people who are going to deliver these 68 action points. And what's the provision currently, and what's the connection with the city deal? Because it seems to me that the Valleys taskforce and the implementation plan are over here, the city deals are over there, and there doesn't seem to be much interconnection between the two at the moment.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Over the years, the Member for east Carmarthenshire has called for more strategic thinking in the Valleys and elsewhere in Wales, and has called for less of a pork-barrel approach to politics—I think you've made a number of different interventions along those lines, and I have always agreed with you on those matters. But, in the last few months, since these strategic hubs have been announced, I've received one letter from the Member for the Rhondda, asking for a strategic hub in the Rhondda, and another from yourself, asking for one in Ammanford. I'm not sure that always outlines the strategic thinking that you've had in mind. [Interruption.] The Member's called for strategic thinking.

What I will say to him is that each one of the seven hubs—I would be happy to consider developing a model, I have to say, but each of the seven strategic hubs is linked to the metro, is linked to public transport, is led both by local authorities, informed by the work being done on the city deals, and also by the Welsh Government. And that is why we're going through a process of seminars at the moment to ensure that we do understand what exactly we're trying to achieve with each one of these hubs.

But I will say to the Member that it is important that we do look across the whole of the Valleys region. The points he makes about the western Valleys are well made, and recognised; I accept those points. And I think we do need to look at how we constantly ensure that we're able to reach people across the whole of the Valleys regions. And I think that is a challenge that we accept, and a challenge I hope we will meet.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I was wondering—if we could step back a little bit as well—if we can ask ourselves a deeper question, which I'm not sure is sufficiently addressed yet in the plan that has been published, which is why the initiatives of the past have failed. Because the most sobering reading of all—. I urge honourable—oh, falling into bad habits there. I urge Members to read the engagement study, which is actually based on surveys with people in the Valleys about how they see things. And it's sobering reading indeed: 45 per cent saying that the state of their town centres were poor; 54 per cent saying that support for businesses was poor; 30 per cent saying that the local health services were poor; 45 per cent, poor transport services. And we have to ask ourselves why are we in this position. And unless we have a sufficient analysis and an honest analysis—and I realise that, for a Government that has been in power for the best part of two decades, that is a difficult question to ask—but, unless we ask it, then we are condemned, are we not, to repeat the failures of the past?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

In many ways, the plan that I published on 7 November is a plan from the Valleys, and not simply a plan for the Valleys. It's about listening to people, talking with people, having conversations with people, about what they want to see in their communities for the future. And many of them do describe their communities in the way that you've illustrated this afternoon. I accept that fully. But what I will say to you is that it's not the role of Government simply to describe the problems; it's the role of Government to act as a catalyst to create solutions, and that is what this Government is seeking to do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. It's now been two years since the innovative homelessness Measure and the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 were introduced, and I think it's won many plaudits for its preventative approach. I think it's been tougher to deal with rough-sleepers already on the streets, or on the verge of going on the streets, and I wonder if I can ask the Minister what the Welsh Government is doing to reduce the number of rough-sleepers in Wales.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for that question. As you'd imagine, tackling the issue of rough-sleeping is a priority for Welsh Government and a personal priority for me, especially at this particular time of year, as we're noticing the weather getting colder and we are actually seeing increased numbers of people sleeping on our streets. So, in 2016, Welsh Government improved the national rough-sleeper count, so that we're able to capture that truer picture of the number of people who are sleeping rough on the streets of our towns and cities and other communities across Wales. And I think that that's important, that we do get a better picture of the number of people involved and the issues facing those people involved, so that we can better target those services. Also, back in 2016, we introduced StreetLink Cymru, and that's a service that enables members of the public to alert authorities when they see an individual who is rough-sleeping, and then some outreach work can be done to reach out to that individual to explore what could be done to find them temporary, and hopefully, eventually, more permanent accommodation as well.

In terms of the budget, we're seeking to increase the amount of money that we put into tackling homelessness more generally, with an additional £4 million for the homelessness prevention grant this particular year in order to prevent people from finding themselves in that particular situation. But it is, as you, I know, appreciate, a very complex picture. People who rough-sleep do have a wide variety of complex issues and life experiences that they're dealing with, so the response really has to be a partnership approach: Welsh Government working with local authorities, providing the resources that they need, but also making sure that we have that network of support locally with all of the organisations who do a fantastic job in terms of outreach and support for rough-sleepers.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Can I say, Llywydd, I agree with the Minister that this is an important matter at this time of year, because we naturally, as Christmas approaches, think in particular of people who are having to sleep on the streets? But it really is a longstanding problem and it occurs all around the year, and it is multifaceted, you're quite right, in terms of why people feel forced to live on the streets. You're right about data collection. It has improved, and this probably accounts for some of the perceived increase, but The Wallich recently carried out a survey and recorded a 21 per cent increase in rough-sleepers in Swansea, a 67 per cent increase in Bridgend, and a 93 per cent increase in Newport. There are some signs of real initiative and hope as well. You may have seen in today's Western Mail the homelessness charity Llamau have announced a new project and they've had a lot of support from the business community in setting up, or seeking to set up, a helpline for, particularly, young people who are on the verge of living, or who may have just gone to live, on the streets. But, because of the multifaceted nature of this challenge, I wonder if the Welsh Government needs to do something really quite decisive—for instance, by declaring that it believes a housing first approach is the main way to combat rough-sleeping.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for that question, and certainly we are expanding our approach to housing first, commissioning new housing first projects to help people into their own tenancies and increasing access to emergency accommodation. The previous Minister did provide some additional funding to improve and increase the capacity of emergency accommodation, particularly in the Cardiff area. But I agree that housing first is the way forward, in terms of ensuring that people do have access to a warm, safe, decent home, because so much more comes from that. I know also that we need to be working particularly with individual groups that are perhaps more vulnerable, so, young people particularly. I think you were at the launch of the Llamau project, which did involve businesses in terms of tackling young rough-sleeping, particularly, and that was also attended by the First Minister, because he's made it clear that youth homelessness is a particular personal priority for him as well.

I'm also keen, building on the work I did in my previous portfolio, to see what more we can do to support ex-service people who also often find themselves on the streets. We're developing a new housing pathway specifically for veterans to try and ensure that they are able to transition well into civilian life and also ways in which we can engage with them, if and when they are rough-sleepers, in a way that's appropriate to them and has a resonance for them.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

There's much I agree with in that response and, piecemeal, we see many, many good initiatives, and it's trying to combine them, and I just wonder if we need to look at traditional models that have not answered the problem to the extent that we would demand. They're basically treatment first models, usually based in hostel environments, rather than in a home that is then supported—you ensure that the person feels secure in their tenancy and in a home-based approach. But, as I said, the traditional models have been treatment first, and that's what you do before you put someone in a home of their own.

Turning this around to a housing first model is a challenge, but already we're seeing remarkable success, for instance, in the project in Anglesey, which has been piloted by The Wallich foundation. We've seen some countries now adopt housing first, like Finland, where it's been remarkably successful. So, is the Welsh Government up to a fundamental review of the old systems—treatment first, generally—and looking at housing first?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm absolutely open to looking at what more we can do to expand housing first. As you do, I completely see the sense and the benefit in terms of ensuring that people have that warm, safe home and that's the building block then around which they can then start to build a life and tackle issues such as substance misuse and so on. Because we know that many people with substance misuse problems do have problems also maintaining a secure tenancy and that just compounds the kind of stresses and pressures on those individuals. I'd be more than happy to enter into some more detailed conversations. I'm very keen to look at the example in Finland and any other examples that there are of housing first and when it works well. But, to me, it makes perfect sense.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his new role.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

[Inaudible.]

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

So, welcome. [Laughter.] It's a bit of a reconfigured—[Interruption.] Sorry. It's a bit of a reconfigured department that you'll be running, in that you have the local government responsibilities that Mark Drakeford used to hold and also the communities portfolio, which has come from a different department. So, it may take us all a little while to get used to what is, essentially, a new portfolio. So, my first question is: how do you think this new department will better deliver on local government and public service issues in Wales?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Can I say how grateful I am to the Member for his very kind remarks—an example to all Members, I would say?

Presiding Officer, the portfolio I now have brings together a number of functions, as has been outlined by the Member. I hope that by bringing together a responsibility for both local government and the delivery of public services across the country we will be able to pursue a programme to sustain and support excellence in all of our public services, protecting and defending the people who deliver them and ensuring that the people that all of us serve, on all sides of the Chamber, have the best possible public services that we can deliver.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

You also bring with you from your previous role the job of delivering the programme of the Valleys taskforce, which we've been hearing about at some length today. I think it's interesting that we have been talking about this a lot because it's possibly a subject that—over the last 18 months, we probably haven't heard enough about the mechanics of how it will work. So, I think we do need to look at it.

One aspect that I'm interested in is the retraining issue. We live, these days, in a fairly fluid labour market. If people leave their jobs for whatever reason, they may quickly need to retrain for another sector or work, and so skills is a key issue, as you've acknowledged in the past. How will the Valleys taskforce improve retraining and upskillng, and what sort of interaction will you have here with the skills Minister, Eluned Morgan?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The former Minister for skills, who is now leader of the house, was and remains a member of the taskforce, and, at our taskforce meeting tomorrow in Pontypool, we will be inviting the new skills Minister to join the taskforce as well. So, we will have structural links across all of those departments.

I do wholly agree with the Member's analysis on the need for skills. I'm a member of the ministerial employability group, and we will be ensuring that exactly the programme that is being developed at the moment will meet the objectives that have been outlined by the Member.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks for that response. I hope that there will be a joined-up approach to this very important issue.

Now, an awful lot of young people these days go to university or college, as I'm sure you're aware. But this may not be the best route for everyone, and, indeed, a significant number of young people may not want to go to college and might prefer exclusively on-the-job training. Does this approach form part of your thinking in relation to the Valleys taskforce and the other relevant parts of your portfolio?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Yes. One of the most important pieces of work that has been driven by the former Minister for skills and now leader of the house, who is in her place today, has been to drive forward an employability programme and an all-age apprenticeship programme that will deliver skills for the twenty-first century, skills that will be required in the future and may not be available in the workforce of today. That will continue to be as important in the Valleys as it is elsewhere. How we deliver that programme in the Valleys, of course, may well be different, depending on local circumstances.

In answer to the questions from the Plaid Cymru spokesperson this afternoon, I tried to outline that we do have a number of different targets that will drive forward the creation of 7,000 new jobs in the Valleys. They will be jobs that will require skill levels that, perhaps, we don't have in the population at the moment, and we will be ensuring that we're able to deliver exactly those skills for the future.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's plans for a national academy of government? OAQ51380

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I am considering the options for taking this forward as part of the two-year budget agreement with Plaid Cymru. Academi Wales provides support to Government and public services in the areas of leadership, governance, improvement and change, and is developing long-term relationships with key academic institutions.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

As the Cabinet Secretary is aware, I believe Professor Gerry Holtham has been promoting the idea for some years that there’s an opportunity here for Wales to develop a centre that would be internationally renowned, to create an école nationale, in the words of Professor Holtham, for leaders and managers within the public sector.

There are many things that you can say about Professor Holtham, but lack of ambition is not one of them. So, why not? Why can’t we not only meet our own needs by creating a new generation of managers and leaders in the public sector, but also create a centre that will be world renowned?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I’m very pleased to say that Academi Wales has been developing a whole host of relationships with institutions and academics in various institutions across Wales and beyond our borders. I am aware of the views of Gerry Holtham and I don’t disagree with him. I know that this is something that you yourself have emphasised for some years and I am more than happy to continue that discussion with you to look at how we can make progress and work with Academi Wales to see whether that is possible for the future.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, we all want high-quality leaders in public service. However, I'm afraid a school for bureaucrats is something that I think is completely unnecessary. We've got some excellent leadership schools already in our high-quality universities here in Wales, and I think we ought to take advantage of the opportunities that they present. Can I ask what sort of budget you have allocated from within your portfolio for this particular project and question you on whether that might be better spent, frankly, in investing in other ways?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I hope that all of us will be generous enough to see and appreciate what others are seeking to achieve, and I think seeking tabloid headlines probably undermines that ambition. I hope that Darren Millar will reflect on his contribution to this question and will reflect also on the ambition that we all share, which is to have the best possible leadership across all of our public services. That is something, actually, I believe everybody should then want to invest in.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the delivery of Our Valleys, Our Future within South Wales West? OAQ51349

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The Valleys delivery plan covers the Valleys in the South Wales West constituency, such as the Dulais and Llynfi valleys. It sets out how the taskforce’s priorities will be delivered, who will be involved, the expected benefits and the timescales for completion.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. Clearly, we all want to see regeneration of the Valleys succeed, but residential development proposals for northern Bridgend, for example, are hardly groundbreaking visions of the future, and then there are areas, such as the Swansea valley, that are not likely to benefit very much at all, as the plan stands at the moment. In essence, many, as we've heard, believe that the delivery plan needs more work and scrutiny. So, when will the Assembly as a whole have an opportunity to scrutinise the delivery plan in detail?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm rather surprised at the question from the Member for South Wales West. He's been a long-standing Member of this place, and he knows that scrutiny is what is actually taking place at the moment. I'm surprised he doesn't recognise that. He can scrutinise me at questions and in committee, at the time of their choosing. I attend all committees whenever I'm invited to do so. I will say to him that perhaps he needs to look harder at the region he represents. I was in Banwen a couple of weeks ago, speaking to members of the community there, and they were fully engaged in designing the sort of improvements they want to see in their community. I would suggest that the Member spends some time with them.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, can I congratulate you on your promotion from the middle benches to the frontbench once again? But, also, you were talking about the Valleys taskforce, and you've highlighted two hubs, actually. You've put the Neath hub in and you've put the Llynfi valley one in now. Of course, the Afan valley is in between those two—

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

And the Rhondda.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

And the Rhondda. Thank you.

There are many of us who actually want it in our own Valleys, but the question that comes is how do you ensure you engage with those Valleys you have not identified will contain hubs and that are not in those particular areas, to ensure that those deprived communities—and they are deprived communities—are able to get benefits from these hubs and that we can see progress going across all the Valleys and not just the ones in which the hubs are located. And you're welcome to come to Cymmer any time, and Croeserw, to see for yourself.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The meeting that was held in that area, I think, was a lively meeting where you had a lot of those views expressed. We are seeking to continue to ensure that we do hold public events across the whole of the Valleys region, to ensure that we are able to listen to and to move forward on the basis of what we hear. One of the issues that we've found through the last year or so of public engagement, as the Member well knows, is that this is a plan from the Valleys and not just for the Valleys. It's something that has been designed for people in the Valleys, across the whole of the Valleys.

But, at the same time, we need to take strategic decisions, and it is simply not possible to have a strategic hub in every single valley, in every single constituency, in every single town and village across the whole of the Valleys region. That is the last thing we need at the moment. We need bold, strategic visions. We need delivery, we need investment and we need to bring people together. This Government needs to act as a leader and a catalyst, and this Government will certainly do that.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Can I offer my congratulations, as well, Cabinet Secretary?

I was slightly more excited to see that the Llynfi valley was included in your plans. But I do presume that you've already spoken to Bridgend County Borough Council about what your expectations of them are going to be, not just in terms of what they're going to do, but what the outcomes are going to be in this. I heard what you said to Dai Lloyd about there being an element of co-production in the design of this, but I think that's yet to be seen. I wonder if you could tell us who is going to be primarily responsible for the delivery of local action plans so that we know where to direct our scrutiny outside this Chamber.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Well, let me say that I am responsible for the delivery of the plan as a whole, and you can scrutinise me on that. But, let me say that Bridgend County Borough Council have been very quick to tell me what their expectations are of me as well. I don't think there was so much a sense of me telling them what I wanted from them; they were certainly very anxious to tell me what they expected of me, and I'm grateful to the Member for Ogmore, who facilitated many of those conversations and who facilitated the meetings that we had to discuss those issues. We had a very, very successful public meeting in Maesteg, where we led a long conversation with people from those valleys about how we want to see the strategic hub in north Bridgend developing into the future. I hope that Members will continue to scrutinise me on the delivery of the Valleys taskforce project and plan. I can see there's a great interest in that this afternoon. We had hoped, of course, to hold a Government debate on this matter earlier in the month, and perhaps that's something I will reschedule for the new year.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

5. What assessment has been made of the impact of automation on the delivery of public services? OAQ51365

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

There are significant opportunities for digital to support service transformation in the public services in Wales. Consideration of digital or automated solutions should be built into the development of new policies or services.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and can I welcome you to your new role? The most recent Public Policy Institute for Wales report for the Welsh Government predicts that a third of Welsh jobs are projected to be impacted by automation, but would the Cabinet Secretary agree that automation isn't something to try and halt; it's something to try and harness? These advances in technology present opportunities for public sector innovation and improvements in service delivery, freeing up people from routine tasks to deliver better public services. But, of course, there are private sector companies trying to tout it as a way of cutting jobs. So, to avoid hard-pressed councils from taking an ad hoc approach, would the Cabinet Secretary agree that a strategic approach is needed? And will he commit to a review of how local authorities can be supported to use automation for the improvement of public services and ensure they are equipped to meet the challenges ahead?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Can I say, Presiding Officer, I'm very happy to do that? I'm very happy to look at how our public services can deliver through digital and ensure that those opportunities are maximised. I'd be very happy to continue the conversation with the Member if he has ideas on how that might be achieved. I know he interviewed the Permanent Secretary on this matter in the Public Accounts Committee last month, and I hope that she was able to assure him, alongside the chief digital officer of the Welsh Government, Caren Fullerton, that the Welsh Government is and has a delivery plan on this matter for public services within our remit. But, clearly, if local authorities and— . Local authorities will be delivering services that they are responsible for, and if the Member wishes to continue the conversation on that matter, I'd be very happy to continue that with the Member concerned.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, it's clear that automation is going to extend to the professional classes as well, such as doctors and many working in the health sector, but also others giving professional advice, and advice through local authorities and the civic sector in general. I think what's important is that much of this will offer a great way to complement those services, basically allowing people to have more time with the professionals they interface with, and for those professionals to put the information—the diagnostic information, for instance—that they're getting from artificial intelligence into a context, and then the follow-up work and ensuring the well-being of that person is foremost in whatever service they're getting. So, I'm not sure it's going to devastate job prospects for everyone, but it will need new protocols and very careful training in how to use this new technology, and that's something, if we want efficient public service, we must be very much aware of.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I very much agree with the Member's observations. I will say that I see digital opportunities as a means of extending, deepening and broadening the opportunities we have to serve the public and to enable the public to access services more easily than is possible at present. I would urge all service providers to look at how they can positively and proactively approach service delivery to ensure that we expand the digital services currently available, but do so in a way that doesn't exclude those who are unable to access such services.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

6. What are the Welsh Government’s priorities for supporting members of the armed forces community and their families in Wales? OAQ51358

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government support for the armed forces and veterans in Wales? OAQ51351

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, I understand that you have given permission for questions 6 and 7 to be grouped. Our priority is to ensure we provide effective services that meet the needs of service families in areas such as health, housing and employment. Examples of these are the housing pathway, Veterans' NHS Wales and the development of an employment pathway for service personnel leaving the forces, as well as veterans.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I'd like to thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer and join others in congratulating you on your new role. RCT council recently received a gold award from the Ministry of Defence for its commitment to its armed forces community. It's the first and, so far, the only council in Wales to do so. Will you offer your congratulations to RCT, and how will you promote this best practice across Wales?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to the Member for her kind remarks, and I'm sure that all of us will join you in congratulating RCT council in their award. I know it's a prestigious award, which recognises the outstanding support that the council has given to our armed forces community. I'm sure that everybody is very proud of the work that RCT does, and I'm sure that we would wish to extend our congratulations.

In terms of extending best practice, I hope that the conversation that we had during the debate on our armed forces last week would be a means of delivering that sort of best practice across the whole of Wales. We do have a strategy and a programme for doing this, and I will speak to my officials to ensure that the best practice we have observed in RCT is included in that, and that others across the country have an opportunity to share in that best practice.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, one of the recommendations in the report that we discussed last week was the suggestion that Wales ought to have an armed forces commissioner in order to identify the sort of best practice that Vikki Howells just referred to, and to ensure that that was shared widely across the country, and that people were held to account for their delivery against the armed forces covenant. I would be grateful to know whether this is something that you, as the Minister responsible for the armed forces, will consider putting in place here in Wales. I think it would give the veteran community and our armed forces family here in Wales some confidence about the continued commitment of your Government to the armed forces.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, in replying to the debate last week, I gave an undertaking that I would consider all of the recommendations of the cross-party group with an open mind. I reiterate that undertaking this afternoon. I have also agreed to attend a meeting of the all-party group on the armed forces, and I reiterate again my commitment to doing that, and to continuing the conversation that we started last week on how we continue to support the armed forces and veterans community in this country.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, may I also welcome you to your role? We owe a huge debt of gratitude to our armed forces. The best way of repaying that debt is to ensure that we look after them and their families. Servicemen and women may need additional help with financial products due to multiple postings. The families of these personnel may require additional mental health care and support. The children of serving personnel may need additional support due to a lack of continuity as a result of moving schools. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, how do you plan to strengthen the armed forces covenant in Wales, to ensure that we support our serving personnel in every possible way, and that they and their families have priority access to public services?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The delivery on the covenant was something that I debated last week, and I'm happy to reiterate the points that I made last week. The covenant isn't simply delivered by a speech or by a gesture or by a debate. It's delivered by public service workers and the whole community, day in, day out. We ensure that we monitor the delivery of all of our commitments—the commitments that we've made in this area—and we will continue to monitor that and ensure that people are able to access exactly the services that the Member has outlined, day in, day out.

I'm grateful to all Members who took part in the debate last week. I'm also grateful for the work of the all-party group, which scrutinises Government in an informal way on this matter but also seeks to identify all the areas where there is a belief or a view that the Government needs to improve its service delivery and has further work to do. Last week, I accepted that I would look at all of the recommendations of that all-party group report with an open mind. I've already reiterated that commitment this afternoon, and I will attend another meeting of that group in order to continue this conversation.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Cabinet Secretary, one of the areas of concern I have about the support that we give relates to that of residential care. I have an ex-serviceman in my constituency who's done numerous tours in Northern Ireland and various parts of the world and significantly suffers from post-traumatic stress, but he's had no success in finding the residential care place that he needs locally, only being offered places in Shropshire and Scotland, and, again, not that those are actually funded. So, I was wondering whether there is a possibility of reviewing the provision of services in order to ensure that every ex-serviceperson who needs residential support can actually have it and get it when they need it locally or, if it's not available locally, there would be some funding mechanism to support it elsewhere.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The Member makes a very good and important point. It's a point that's also been made by the Member for the Cynon Valley. I accept the point that he makes. Current research points to community-based treatment close to an individual's home and community as being the most effective method of treatment. The Member will be aware that, earlier this month, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services announced an additional £100,000 of recurrent funding on top of the nearly £600,000 that the Welsh Government provides annually to fund Veterans' NHS Wales. This provides additional support and care for veterans, with dedicated veteran therapists located in each health board area. They offer a range of evidence-based psychological therapies for a range of common mental health problems to improve the mental health and well-being of veterans in Wales. If the Member is concerned that that isn't currently delivering for the constituent that he is referring to, then I'd be grateful if he could write to me and I'd be happy to take that matter forward.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

I also congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his new post. The thing is, in last week's debate we talked about post-traumatic stress syndrome in veterans, and also you just mentioned that mental health issues for armed forces veterans are pretty common. We have to look after them. I know you have not closed the door on the idea of creating an armed forces commissioner in Wales to co-ordinate and provide the support they need from public sector organisations. So, could I ask you to commit to making a statement on this issue early in the new year, please?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, I've given an undertaking that I'll discuss this matter with the all-party group, and I will certainly make a statement to the National Assembly after I've had an opportunity to have those discussions with the group.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Cabinet Secretary, will you agree with me that there was no greater champion from this Senedd for our armed forces than Carl Sargeant? As Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl last year outlined in the Chamber Welsh Government action to support our armed forces and veterans, such as the innovative housing referral pathway to ensure that former members of the armed forces community are supported to find suitable accommodation and avoid homelessness—a devastating outcome of armed service. Keep Safe Cymru for veterans is a creative and highly valued initiative that allows veterans with specific health needs additional support from emergency services in times of crisis. Cabinet Secretary, what actions, therefore, will the Welsh Government take to build on Carl's passionate work and legacy in this area, to ensure that we continue to value our ongoing duty of care to those who have given their all—our veterans and their families—and continue to play our part in the repayment of a collective debt and duty to them?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, I think Members across the whole Chamber paid tribute to the work of Carl Sergeant during our debate last week, and I was certainly very happy to add my voice to those tributes. Carl, in many ways, led the work of the whole Government on this area, and the fact that Wales is recognised as the leading country in the United Kingdom in terms of providing support to veterans and to service families and the service community is testament to the work that Carl led.

I will say to the Member that we will continue to work with the expert group that was established to ensure that we are able to respond to all the issues that are raised by the service community in this country, whether it's the health issues that have been raised this afternoon or housing issues or employment issues that have been raised on other occasions. We will work with our key partners across the community and throughout public services with newly appointed armed forces liaison officers. We will ensure that we deliver on the armed forces covenant consistently, across the whole country, throughout the whole year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is the topical questions, and the first question is from Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

1. Given the announced 23 per cent overspend on the project to dual the A465 between Abergavenny and Hirwaun, will the Cabinet Secretary confirm where the additional resource to fund this will come from? 73

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The increased expenditure is spread over three financial years between now and the end of construction. Future budget profiles will reflect these increases.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer. We've heard from businesses, of course, who will face financial difficulty due to delays. There are the obvious frustrations and inconvenience to residents. Can I ask: when did you become aware that the project would likely go into an overspend situation? What provisions were made by the Welsh Government to cover the potential cost overruns of the scheme? Also, if the Welsh Government is liable for a proportion of the total cost of the overspend, what is that proportion? If you don't know what that figure is, can I ask why not? How was a procurement contract agreed for a project of this scale without your Government protecting taxpayers from an overspend that they're not responsible for, if that's the case? In addition, I want to ask what independent technical advice was sought by the Welsh Government in relation to many of the complex challenges associated with the scheme, importantly before the tendering specification was drawn up.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'd like to thank the Member for his questions. I've already said to Members previously that I'd welcome any referral of businesses, or indeed individuals or self-employed people, who are suffering as a consequence of the roadworks on this particular stretch to be brought forward to Government with a view to us assisting.

I can say that the moment I was informed of costings problems in delivering this hugely ambitious scheme I ordered an immediate and comprehensive commercial review, which has now reported back. I can confirm as well that officials took specialist, commercial and legal advice on these matters, and the resolution and negotiation of such issues is a confidential and commercially sensitive process. But the contract is absolutely clear: the contractor is currently exposed to a greater level of financial risk from the overspend than Welsh Government. Their financial exposure should motivate them to reduce their level of risk.

I'll outline the process by which we entered into a contract with Costain. This is a hugely significant engineering and construction project, but I don't think there's any hiding my disappointment at the contractor's overspend and programme delay. We used the early contractor involvement process and also industry standards, terms and conditions in order to ensure that Welsh Government's exposure to risk was reduced as much as possible. The ECI approach is intended to bring in at a very early stage a contractor's expertise on buildability, ability to innovate and approach to effective management of risk in order to influence design development.

I think it's fair to say that a complicated scheme such as section 2 of this project is in theory very well suited to an ECI contract. But there was also a hold point in the contract between parts 1 and 2, which enabled either Welsh Government or the contractor to terminate the contract without penalty. It enabled Costain not to enter into the construction contract without penalty should they have felt that, based on all of the information that they held, their projected outturn cost would not be realistic. That said, Costain went ahead regardless, and I am determined that we will do everything we can to protect taxpayers from the additional costs, which we are assessing currently.

I think it's worth saying that we are satisfied that we have exercised the appropriate level of management and supervision on this project. Construction has already seen 2 million tonnes of earth and rock moved, 2.5 km of retaining wall built, 44 service diversions completed, over 6,000 soil nails installed and 4,000 trees planted. And whilst significant, these short-term impacts need to be balanced against the longer term benefits of this incredible project. I would encourage Members as well to attend the public exhibitions that commenced on 27 November, and to take part in site tours, where more questions can be asked and where they will be answered.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, no-one would disagree that this is a very challenging engineering project and that it will be a very fine stretch of road when it's complete, but nonetheless there are concerns across Wales and within this Chamber, but certainly locally with local residents I've met, and I think some of their fears would have been confirmed by the recent revelation about the 23 per cent overspend. For a long time now, there have been complaints made to me about Costain, the contractors, operating within a slacker fiscal regulatory environment than local residents would see fit. So, I think if you could revisit this and your arrangements for Costain—. I hear what you say—that they are more liable to bear more of the risk than the Welsh Government is, and that's to be welcomed if that's the case, but currently, certainly in the local area, there are real concerns that there doesn't seem to be the sort of tight hold on the finances of this project and, indeed, on the deadlines for completing the project that we would all like to see. So, if you could review that, that would be very appreciated.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'd agree with the Member. I've already asked for a lessons learned analysis to be conducted by officials. I think the call for tighter regulatory controls over the costs of this project are fair. And also I'd agree with the Member that this is a particularly fine piece of road; in fact, it's going to have the biggest concrete arch of its kind anywhere on the planet. It will be a project that we can be proud of. I do sympathise with all of those people who are suffering as a consequence of delays, but it will be a major construction project that Wales will be proud of.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

It does seem as if interest in this particular scheme is coming from these benches, given that it's the biggest capital spend that the department has at the moment, and that the cost overrun running into excess somewhere north of £50 million is something that has to be managed. I do welcome the Minister's engagement today, and it is sad that the didn't give an oral statement when this first became a problem. I would ask the Minister if he could confirm whether he is confident that whatever proportion of the overspend will have to be met by his department—and he's indicated that it will be spread over three years—that additional moneys will be secured from Welsh Government reserves rather than the existing budgets having to be hollowed out to make up this overspend, because other projects around Wales—and I look at my own area, South Wales Central, which has a consultation at the moment about improving links to the M4, and also proposals around the Dinas Powys bypass—such projects, if these many millions of pounds have to be spend for the completion of the road, could be called into question.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question, and just remind Members again that this huge undertaking will open up the Heads of the Valleys for further economic development and prosperity? It's our intention, first of all, to minimise exposure to the Welsh Government and therefore to taxpayers as a consequence of the excessive costs, but once the level of Welsh Government's liability has been confirmed, decisions will then be made on how best to fund any shortfall, recognising what the opportunity costs of this increase will be. Future budget profiles will reflect these increases so that the impact can be considered as part of the ongoing delivery of the national transport finance plan.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and the next question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact of the recent floods on Anglesey's road network? 75

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Disruption was caused to the road network over the night of 22-23 November due to flooding. We continue to work hard and invest significant resources to build resilience in the network across north Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much. May I, on behalf of the Assembly, send my sympathy to everyone who was affected by the floods? I have visited most of the areas affected and it is heartbreaking to see the impact on homes, the pain and anxiety caused for people, many of them vulnerable, and businesses have suffered—businesses like Becws Glandwr in Llangefni, for example, who couldn't bake for the first time in 40 years. There are many elements of the floods where I'll need to be in touch with Government and its agencies in terms of flood prevention—I'll be in touch with Natural Resources Wales and so on—but I am pleased to have this opportunity to specifically discuss the damage caused to the A545 between Menai Bridge and Beaumaris, and the long-term impacts of that.

I do want to congratulate the council for responding quickly. I spoke to engineers on Friday, as they carried out emergency works in order to try and reopen that road, and that was on a very steep slope that went directly to the sea. I do very much hope that one lane of the two will be open soon, because at the moment there is no road open for all vehicles to travel to Beaumaris at all. It's possible for cars to use back roads, but I've spoken to businesses who have to travel with vans to meet lorries that deliver goods to them but can't get to Beaumaris at all because of low bridges into the town.

There have been many landslides on this particular road in the past, but they were landslides onto the road from above. This time, it's been a landslide from the road towards the sea. That is far more serious because it threatens the foundations of the road itself, of course. In the past, I've drawn the Government's attention to the fears that works need to be done to strengthen this road substantially to safeguard it for the future, and the costs are going to be significant. So, may I appeal to Government to see what financial support can be provided to the Isle of Anglesey County Council first of all, in order to put right the damage caused by these floods—that's likely to be £0.25 million—but also to do the strengthening work required for the long-term resilience? Beaumaris and the east of Anglesey can't afford to be isolated in this way, and without investment now and support from Government I fear that that is what will happen more and more often in the future.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for the previous question, Presiding Officer, and add my sympathies to those who are affected by the floods, not just the motorists who were largely featured in the media but also the many businesses and home owners who were affected by recent floods?

The Member was right to outline the A545 as the responsibility of the Isle of Anglesey council, but my officials have already met with the local authority to discuss possible ways of improving the road's infrastructure and its resilience, and I've been in correspondence with the local authority with regard to the landslip experienced on the A545. I'm pleased to be able to say that I have already confirmed my willingness to consider a request for financial support to address such problems, and I also understand that the local authority are having discussions with Beaumaris Town Council on a possible improvement that could be partly funded as well by the town council. Between all of us working together, I hope that we will be able to bring greater security to the people of Beaumaris and indeed Anglesey and ensure that future floods do not affect people in the way that these floods recently have done.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The next question is from Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

3. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to commissioning an independent inquiry into allegations of abuse on Caldey Island? 76

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Any allegations of abuse are truly abhorrent, and survivors were not given the response they deserved when they first spoke out. We would advise anyone who suffered abuse to come forward in confidence and report allegations of abuse to the police by ringing 101 or to contact local authorities' social services or indeed the Truth Project on 0800 917 1000.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for that response. Like you and everybody else in this Chamber, we were appalled and shocked at the allegations that have emerged in recent weeks of abuse by a monk on Caldey Island. Eleven women so far have come forward to say that they were abused by Father Thaddeus Kotik when they were children, and of course they are all suffering lifelong consequences as a result of that abuse. In fact, one of those women claims that a second person also abused her on that island. Who that person is and where they are we don't actually know, and we know that other cases may well come to light, and I too would encourage people to report their concerns.

We also know that allegations of abuse, of course, were brought to the attention of the abbot at Caldey Abbey back in 1990 but were not reported to the police at that time, and that since that date, a child sex offender, Paul Ashton, hid on Caldey Island for a period of seven years trying to evade justice. And I have to say, I think the whole thing stinks. It smacks of a deliberate cover-up of abuse by clergy on that island, which is frequently visited by young children, a place that ought to be safe, which hasn't been safe in the past. And I think we need answers. We need answers as to who knew what, when, and why the abbey didn't report things to the police when they ought to have done when things were brought to their attention. We also need to know when Pembrokeshire's social services department knew about these claims and what action they may or may not have taken in the past to protect young children visiting that island.

I'm appalled by this and I think that it would be wise to ask you to organise an independent inquiry into what went on, because we do need to learn lessons and we need to be confident now, particularly given that we don't know who this second person is, that young children are safe visiting that island in the future. School trips are still going on, Cabinet Secretary, and we need to be sure that those children are protected from abuse.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you for those additional comments. Can I say that, in light of the recently emerging allegations and fresh allegations, Dyfed-Powys Police are currently engaged in ongoing investigations into these allegations? As such, I hope you'll understand, Darren, that it's not appropriate for me to comment further at this moment, because of the risk of jeopardising the police investigations and inquiries.

But Members will also note that the children's commissioner has written to Caldey Island abbey themselves to seek assurances, but also that she has said that it is, at this moment, too early to call for an inquiry, not least because of the detail that is still emerging and also because there is a police investigation currently live, under way. It is worth pointing out, however, that in addition to the massively transformed safeguarding environment for children and adults within Wales there is also a national Catholic safeguarding advice service. And as I mentioned, the children's commissioner has written directly to the abbey on Caldey Island seeking assurances that they are following the Catholic Church's national safeguarding policy—their own safeguarding policies as well—and their procedures on child protection.

Darren is absolutely right in saying that we need answers to this. We need to know how this happened, but also—it's often an overused phrase—to learn lessons about how we can avoid this and minimise the risk of it happening again. We have done so much in Wales in improving our safeguarding procedures, but if there are lessons to be learnt from this, both for the Catholic Church and also in terms of wider safeguarding, we will ensure that we learn those lessons. And in that respect, I fully understand the calls for the answers to the questions that have been put. But at this moment, there is a police investigation under way.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I've listened very carefully to what you have said to Darren Millar, however I do have two other points I would like to make. The first is that Dyfed-Powys Police were aware of these allegations themselves in both 2014 and again in 2016. The reason they did not move to prosecution was they said there was little point because the monk in question had since died—he'd passed away. However, there should still have been some form of investigation, because how did they know that he was the only one? How did they know that he didn't have conspirators in terms of a cover-up? How did they know that there may not be other children put at risk? I'm not overly impressed with the actions of Dyfed-Powys Police on this matter, and I would like to ask you, as the Minister, to write to them in the strongest terms for them to actually investigate how they acted and whether or not they took the appropriate action at the time, because I think that they have been found wanting on this matter. They should have looked at it and not just said, 'Well, never mind, the chap's dead, it's an irrelevancy.' And I do not think that they should be allowed off the hook on this.

The second point I'd like to talk about is the fact that I wrote last week to the abbot at Caldey Island and I asked him if he would refer himself or set up a full investigation to be carried out by another independent organisation. I appreciate that you feel that you cannot move forward because of the current police investigation, however I've thought on this further, and, as I'm sure you are aware, the Catholic Church themselves have an ongoing independent inquiry into the sexual abuse and exploitation of children in the Roman Catholic Church. I appreciate that, at the moment, they are looking at the Benedictine congregation, but I wondered whether you, in your capacity as Minister, would write to that inquiry, and ask them whether they would also look at the Cistercian Order on Caldey Island, because they do have a wider remit than just the Benedictine congregation. And I think it's very important that the Catholic Church are struggling with this issue, and that this is yet another example of where, I think, they should be looking at it to ensure that there is not systemic abuse going on within any of these organisations.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, again, for those additional comments and queries. And you're right in that there is a separate review within the Catholic Church itself of its safeguarding arrangements. We also note that the independent inquiry into child sex abuse is considering issues of failures of religious institutions, as part of the UK-wide inquiry. I can confirm that my officials have been in touch with the inquiry about the reported abuse, and we will of course not only keep a close eye on the way that that inquiry proceeds, but also seek to learn lessons from the inquiry's wider findings into religious bodies, into the investigations of religious institutions.

I will certainly consider the points that have been raised about writing further to others, but it is worth pointing out, even at this stage, whilst not saying anything in terms of the current police investigations that are proceeding—and I have to make sure that we do not jeopardise those live investigations—my officials will, under my instruction, request that both CYSUR and the mid and west safeguarding board keep me and the Welsh Government fully updated on progress so far with the investigation, but also on whether there are any current shortfalls in arrangements, and keep me up to date with that. I will certainly also write to the National Catholic Safeguarding Advisory Service to seek their assurances, both on historic matters, and on current issues as well. I will go back and speak to my officials on whether there are additional reassurances that we can give, in light of the points that the Member has raised.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

In addition to the questions that have already been raised, I think it is important to underline that Caldey is a place of pilgrimage and sanctuary, which has been in the Christian tradition for over 1,600 years in Wales and people will continue to go there. And the current monks, although they're not directly involved in this scandal, are the inheritors of the tradition there and are therefore the keepers, quite literally the keepers, of the flame, in terms of the standards that need to be upheld on the island.

What concerns me from what I've heard and read in the press, and your reply today, is that even at the time that the original complaint was made, the rules in place then—even then; you've talked about the improvements since, but even then—meant that that complaint should have been referred to the police. It wasn't, and the then abbot—not the current, but the then abbot—in effect covered it up. That is a pattern of behaviour that we've seen wider, not in the Catholic Church only, but in church institutions—in all institutions, let's be honest; it's an institutional thing.

So, although in reply to other Members you've talked about the children's commissioner writing to ascertain that procedures are in place, what I'd like to hear from you today is that the Welsh Government will do that, and, ideally, that you can give assurances here to the Chamber today that you have either seen or have had assurances about the protection procedures for not just children, but vulnerable adults as well, on Caldey Island, and that these procedures are ones that are not only in place, but are actively followed, and that the right training has been put in place to ensure that the situation would be resolved if anything were to happen today. It's not just historic, it's not that the procedures were bad in the past; they weren't even followed. There was a deliberate cover up, and it's not that long ago, and we must be assured that it can't happen again.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Simon reminds us of the fact that, whilst we cannot ever rule out any eventuality of an instance of abuse—on a child or an adult—we do recognise that it is incumbent upon us as Welsh Government, not only police, not only safeguarding boards, to be active within our determination, not only to deal with the historic issues that have been raised today in the Chamber, but also to ensure that we absolutely minimise the chances of this happening. We have, indeed, across Welsh Government previously taken such action, not only in terms of changing the whole landscape of the safeguarding environment in Wales, both for adults and children with the national safeguarding board, the child and adult safeguarding boards, but also in our response to, for example, the Waterhouse recommendations where right across the piste if there were lessons to be learned and actions to be taken, we took those actions, and the same, I say to you, we will do again now.

And we're not taking a passive role in this. My officials are actively engaged, both with what is currently going on and the allegations emerging, but also what lessons can be learnt from historic allegations as well. We need to make sure that we keep to the absolute minimum the chances of this happening to any individual. He rightly points out the fact that Caldey Island, currently mired within the allegations that have come forward, also, for many people, is a place of religious sanctity. We have to make sure, and it's incumbent upon us as well as those acting on the ground—Dyfed-Powys Police, the safeguarding boards, Pembrokeshire council and others—to make sure that we put in place the safeguards, collectively, so that this cannot happen, and that we learn the lessons. But I'm afraid you have to understand that I don't want to comment further, particularly while there is a live investigation going on, but we will learn what lessons arise from this.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister, and the next question, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the implications for Wales of the UK Government's Brexit impact assessments following their release on Tuesday? 78

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the UK Government's sectoral Brexit reports were sent to the Welsh Government late on Monday. They are now being studied to ascertain what, if any, new insights and implications they contain. We believe that these reports should be in the public domain, but that is a decision that only the UK Government can make.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure that the Brexit impact assessments passed on to you were redacted or incomplete, just as they were for the Brexit select committee at Westminster. The UK Government are in contempt of Parliament, and are showing nothing but contempt for Wales. This is crucial information that needs to be revealed. We need those 58 sectors analysed fully, so that we can prepare Wales for any adverse impacts from leaving the single market or the customs union, and I hope that pressure can be put on them at both ends of the M4 for those assessments to be published in full.

Cabinet Secretary, have you been given sufficient information to conduct Wales-specific sectoral analyses? If not, what can you do as a Government to ensure that enough economic intelligence exists for Wales to be able to provide for Brexit? Can you publish your own economic forecasts for the different Brexit scenarios? And will you provide support to businesses and exporters ahead of, and following, the UK's withdrawal from the European Union?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the leader of Plaid Cymru is absolutely right that the documents sent to us were the heavily edited versions sent to the House of Commons select committee, despite a binding vote in the House of Commons to release the documents in full. Those documents are being studied in the Welsh Government, but I think we can already align ourselves with the conclusions of Michael Russell, from the Scottish Brexit committee, when he said in his letter to David Davis yesterday that whatever else they may contain, it is clear that these reports do not contain any actual impact analysis.

In the Welsh context, the Welsh Government has been able to conduct analysis of that sort. We published a set of annexes to the White Paper that we published jointly with Plaid Cymru in January that did set out the economic analysis that lay behind the conclusions we drew in that White Paper. Our 'Brexit and Fair Movement of People' document included extensive analysis from King's College London and from the university here in Cardiff in relation to migration and its impact sectorally here in Wales. We will publish, as I promised to the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee last week, more detailed sectoral analysis, which is currently being undertaken for us by Cardiff University, and we hope to be able to put that into the public domain in January.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I'm surprised to hear the Cabinet Secretary criticise the UK Government for lack of openness and transparency in this respect, because researchers from my office on 13 October made a similar request to the Welsh Government—to the First Minister—to publish documents relating to the Welsh Government's understanding of the impact of Brexit upon Wales, and the response that we got was this:

'The negotiations on the UK's withdrawal from the EU are ongoing with no clear indication of what the resulting situation will be. The Welsh Government is exploring a range of potential outcomes and implications for Wales and the work is in constant development as negotiations progress and is therefore incomplete. I do not believe that releasing information at this stage would be in the wider public interest.'

So, isn't the Cabinet Secretary's response to the leader of Plaid Cymru hypocrisy of a high order?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

That's just nonsensical, Llywydd, as you can tell. I've already explained that the Welsh Government has put a series of analytical documents into the public domain when they are in the developed state they need to be in order to have a proper influence on the debate.

I was asked originally about documents that the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union had originally described as containing detailed impact assessments across 58 sectors. It then turned out, in his own words, that they were no such thing. But we deserve to be in a position where we can judge that for ourselves and the sooner that they are released in full into the public domain, the better able we will all be to do that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the 90-second statements, but no requests were received for 90-second statements.

5. Motion under Standing Order 17.2 to give instructions to the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That brings us to item 5, namely the motion under Standing Order 17.2, to give instruction to the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister.

I call on Paul Davies to move the motion.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to move the motion, tabled in my name.

The sole purpose of this afternoon's debate is to seek agreement that a special meeting of the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister takes place as soon as possible to investigate the allegations of bullying made by former members and advisers to the Welsh Government, and to get to the truth about these serious allegations.

Members are all aware of the recent allegations made against the Welsh Government and the office of the First Minister and it's absolutely crucial that those allegations are properly investigated in an open and transparent manner. Clarity is now required from the First Minister over his comments in recent weeks, and I believe it's entirely appropriate for that to happen as part of an inquiry undertaken by the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister.

Before I develop my argument and speak specifically to this motion, if I can turn to the Government's amendment, which refers to the First Minister's statement last week on the appointment of an independent adviser to police the ministerial code. Of course, that announcement was made after this debate was tabled and even though this is a step in the right direction, we still believe that these allegations should be subject to the scrutiny of the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister.

Members will be aware of the cross-party motion that was tabled in my name, alongside Aled Roberts and Elin Jones in the previous Assembly in 2014, which specifically called for the appointment of an independent adjudicator in order to improve transparency and thereby increase confidence in those elected to public office. The Welsh Government rejected that motion at that time, but the First Minister has now come to the conclusion that this is the right thing to do. However, I have to say that the timing of this is very suspect and it's quite clear that it is opposition parties that have led on this, while the First Minister and the Welsh Government have followed.

Even though I welcome the First Minister's u-turn, I still believe that it's appropriate for the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister to hold an inquiry into the allegations, because we don't, at this stage, know the terms of reference for the independent adviser's inquiry. At least with the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister, it will be totally transparent and held in public.

The committee process will afford the First Minister the opportunity to categorically spell out the nature of the allegations that his office received and to provide much-needed detail and clarification to some of the remarks made in recent weeks.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Would the Member give way?

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Yes, of course. I give way.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I wonder if the Member would also factor in the fact that whatever the decision of the First Minister to refer himself to an independent adjudicator very late in the day, we have an issue remaining about what the First Minister told this Assembly over several occasions—the inconsistencies between what he told the Assembly on several occasions—and the lack of answers that we've had to date, and we need a parliamentary process to get to the bottom of that.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Absolutely, and that's why it's essential that now this matter is referred to the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister. Whilst I appreciate that there is no precedent for us to follow in this regard, allowing the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister to undertake this inquiry is, to my mind, the most transparent and effective way forward. Now, the First Minister had made it clear that he is open to scrutiny regarding the allegations and how they were dealt with by his office at the time, and I, of course, welcome that. There are several legitimate questions that need to be answered fully so that the people of Wales can be confident that any allegations made are dealt with robustly and documented accordingly.

It's essential that the Assembly accepts the motion before us this afternoon so that the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister can get on with the job of asking those legitimate questions as soon as possible. Therefore, I'm extremely disappointed that the Welsh Government has taken the decision to amend the motion by removing the requirement of an inquiry by the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister. As I mentioned earlier, we don't know the terms of reference for the independent adviser's inquiry and whether evidence to that inquiry will be subject to public scrutiny. It seems to me that if the Government don't want an inquiry by Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister then it suggests that it will only accept scrutiny on this matter as long as it's on its own terms.

Indeed, the First Minister refused to rule out whether he'd even vote on this motion this afternoon when he was questioned yesterday, again sending yet another statement that scrutiny of himself and his office will only happen on the Government's terms. Whilst there is nothing in the current Standing Orders that prohibits the First Minister from voting on this motion, is it morally right for the First Minister to set the agenda regarding his own scrutiny? I would argue that there is a conflict of interest here, and I would hope—I would hope—that the First Minister will use his discretion and not participate in the vote this afternoon. I give way.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I'm very grateful to the Member. We, obviously, all welcome the creation of an independent adjudication process, but, as has already been said, that should never mean that the First Minister then does not subject himself to ordinary parliamentary scrutiny by Members of this place, and I, and probably other Members now, have received written replies back to written questions where the First Minister is refusing to answer those questions because he says they will properly be referred now to the independent adjudication. Well, that can never be acceptable. We're duly elected in this place to hold the First Minister to account, and he should not use the independent investigation as an excuse not to answer questions.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Absolutely, and I very much agree with the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, and that's why this inquiry should go ahead by the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister.

Now, let me remind Members that a key part of this inquiry is the First Minister's response to a written Assembly question from an opposition Member. The First Minister made it abundantly clear in November 2014, in a response to my colleague Darren Millar, that no allegations had been made, and yet, in response to an oral Assembly question, the First Minister has indicated any issues that were brought to his attention at that time were dealt with. Indeed, the committee inquiry would not just consider the First Minister's conduct and that of his office, but also the First Minister's response and attitude to Assembly business. If Ministers can change their answers to Assembly scrutiny, then what does that say about our institution? Therefore, it is entirely appropriate that the First Minister faces questions from an Assembly committee and, of course, the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister is the most suitable committee.

Let me also remind the Welsh Government that their own business manager made it crystal clear in the Business Committee meeting last week that she was happy to see this inquiry brought before the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister as soon as possible. Therefore, it's deeply disappointing that the Welsh Government has chosen to renege on its initial position, and this sends yet another statement to the people of Wales that the Welsh Government only answers questions when it feels like it, on its own terms.

It's my view that the to-ing and fro-ing on this issue has not helped the Assembly's reputation at all, and it's now time for this matter to be dealt with effectively through our own robust scrutiny channels. If the name 'Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister' tells the people of Wales anything, it's that it convenes to scrutinise the First Minister. The remit of the committee, as stated on the Assembly's website, and I quote, is

'to scrutinise the First Minister on any matter relevant to the exercise of the functions of the Welsh Government.'

Unquote. Therefore, this inquiry could not meet the criteria of the remit more adequately. Now, if the Welsh Government amends this motion today by bypassing this scrutiny avenue, then it effectively tells the people of Wales that the committee only scrutinises the First Minister when the First Minister wants it to. And the view—. And the view of an unnamed Labour Assembly Member, in media reports last week, that this process would lead to a 'political bunfight' is absolutely absurd. It shows no respect for the Assembly Members sitting on that committee, which is, frankly, alarming, as every one of those Members is a committee Chair that was democratically elected to their role by this Assembly. The Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister is formed by not only some of our most experienced Assembly Members, but by those who are the front faces of Welsh Government scrutiny. And I can hear mutterings from the Labour benches. If somebody wants to intervene on that point, then I'm quite willing to give way. No.

Now, it's my view that, as part of the inquiry, the committee should take evidence from a range of witnesses. Those witnesses must include not just the First Minister, but also his staff and office at the time, as well as former Members and former special advisers, so that the committee can be confident that the range of evidence received is balanced and comprehensive. I also believe that the committee should prepare a report of its findings to the Assembly by February half term 2018. It's important that a focus and direction is given to the inquiry from the outset.

The remit of the committee's inquiry should also consider the points raised in today's motion. It's absolutely crucial that the allegations are thoroughly examined, as well as any action taken, as a result of bullying complaints. And, as I mentioned earlier, the validity of the answers given by the First Minister to the National Assembly for Wales in relation to such allegations is a vital reason why the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister should undertake this inquiry in the first place. And so, therefore, the First Minister's response to Assembly questions must be given significant attention as part of this inquiry. At the very least, this needs to be clarified so that the people of Wales can have full confidence in the Welsh Government's operations.

The Welsh Government's amendment to this motion simply shows the First Minister's attempt to set his own scrutiny by self appointing an independent adviser to investigate his actions in the last two weeks. There's also no confirmation that that there will be any public scrutiny by the First Minister's adviser, and there is certainly no confirmation in the amendment that the First Minister's own inquiry will consider his responses to questions in recent years. In fact, it merely states that it will consider allegations made in the past two weeks.

Therefore, in closing, Llywydd, there has been talk in recent weeks of delivering natural justice, and an inquiry that is set on the Government's own terms behind closed doors does not set that agenda. A public, transparent forum is one of the vehicles to deliver that, and so it's entirely appropriate that this motion is allowed to pass. Indeed, the Assembly has always prided itself on being an open and transparent forum, and it's crucial that we continue to operate in this manner. No Member should deny this process from happening. Therefore, I urge Members to support this motion and send a message to the people of Wales that the National Assembly for Wales is free to scrutinise the First Minister when the opportunity calls for it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the leader of the house to move formally amendment 1, tabled in her name.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Formally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Formally. Formally. Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to set out Plaid Cymru's position on today's motion and on the Welsh Government amendment. These are difficult circumstances, which make it all the more vital that light is shed on the events that have been raised as a concern.

We're all aware of the allegations made about bullying within the Welsh Government dating to 2014, and the discrepancy over which specific or official allegations were made. To date, attempts to scrutinise the First Minister on this have not got to the bottom of the type of issues that were raised. The answers given by the First Minister in First Minister's questions last week had more detail than the previous week's answers, but still did not answer some basic questions. Those unanswered questions include: what issues were raised, and how were they dealt with? Was a report produced, or was a report provided? Was there civil service involvement at all? Those questions may well have answers, but those answers have not yet been provided.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Would the leader of Plaid Cymru give way?

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Yes.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Could I add further to those questions—because these are the very specific allegations made by Leighton Andrews—was a formal investigation requested of the First Minister in response to the allegations, or the concerns or issues, that he raised with the First Minister?