Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 6 December 2017

324 contributions from 45 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance. And the first question, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the implications of the UK Government's Trade Bill for Welsh Government procurement policy? OAQ51398

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Trade Bill includes a proposed agreement on Government procurement, known as a plurilateral agreement within the World Trade Organization framework. The Bill provides Welsh Ministers with regulation-making powers when implementing such an agreement in devolved areas.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. You may recall we had quite a lot of discussion, pre referendum, on the issue of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and external trade agreements, and the implications for Welsh procurement, the Welsh national health service, and so on. And it appears that, although the red rag was being proposed that, if we didn't leave the European Union, we'd be presented with an EU TTIP, it looks that the Trade Bill now has the implications of imposing a UK TTIP on Wales, with very little scrutiny, using the royal prerogative, with only a certain level of governmental scrutiny on it. Do you agree with me that the Bill, as it's drawn at the moment, is not something we can give legislative consent to, and do you also share some of the concerns I have about the way this Bill can abuse some of the policies that we are supporting within Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the fundamental objection to the Trade Bill, from a constitutional perspective, is the one that Mick Antoniw has just outlined, which is that it continues to allow Ministers of the Crown an ability to reach over into devolved areas and to impose solutions without seeking the consent of Welsh Ministers. And, in that sense, the things that are wrong with the Trade Bill are the things that are wrong with the withdrawal Bill, which is why it is so important that we manage to get the withdrawal Bill properly amended.

My reading of the Trade Bill itself is that it's main aim is to preserve the status quo into the short and medium term, bringing 40 plus free trade agreements that already exist with the EU into UK law. What will be absolutely unacceptable to the Welsh Government would be if future trade policy was conducted on the basis that protections that are currently available in the field of the environment, in the field of wages, in the field of other standards, that the Trade Bill was used to undermine those, in the way that the Member has suggested.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, obviously, public procurement more generally is an important lever that you as a Government have of stimulating localised economies. The previous Welsh Government brought forward the national public procurement framework, which was to allow smaller businesses, obviously, to get a greater share of the public procurement pie. I've received many representations that businesses have found this procurement network very cumbersome, and I think Government Ministers have indicated that it hasn't been the success that, obviously, it was desired to be. What assessment have you made of that framework, and what improvements are you minded to make, to allow a greater share of the public procurement pot to arrive back to small and medium-sized businesses?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I have announced a review of the national procurement service, partly to make sure that some of the things that were aimed for when it was established can be better delivered, but also to make sure that our approach to procurement is aligned with some opportunities that there may be the other side of the European Union. This is one of the few areas where there may be some new opportunities for us, when we are able to write our own rule book to a certain extent, rather than being bound by EU procurement policies. We've asked for that review to be undertaken. A very important part of that will be to make sure that our procurement policies in the future are even better aligned than they have been in the past, with opportunities for Welsh businesses to be able to take advantage of Welsh public expenditure.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Can the Cabinet Secretary tell us at the moment, unless we see changes to the published Bill—that's the Trade Bill—whether the Welsh Government will refuse to give legislative consent through a legislative consent motion? Now, the Cabinet Secretary for trade in London said that they had introduced some changes to the Bill since the draft was published in October, having had discussions with the Welsh and Scottish Governments. Can he tell us what changes were made, and, as the WTO arrangement that he referred to sets out different sections at different levels of Government—for example, for devolved Governments—would the Welsh Government expect to have a veto in designating the content of the specific sections relating to Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

What I can say, Llywydd, is that, under the withdrawal Bill, we have already stated that we can’t bring an LCM to the floor of the Assembly and ask Members to support that. What we can’t agree on in the withdrawal Bill is the same, in my view, as what we see in the Bill that currently in question.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I don't want to over-anticipate the Welsh Government's position on it, Llywydd, because that needs to be properly thought through, but it does seem to me unlikely that, without some of the changes that have been suggested that the UK Government is open to considering, we would be in a position to propose a legislative consent motion that we could support on this Bill for the same reasons as in the previous Bill. Does that amount to a veto in the way that Adam Price has suggested? Well, probably not quite.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's proposed new taxes? OAQ51405

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Suzy Davies for that question. Work continues on the short list of potential tax proposals for Wales, as set out on 3 October. It remains my—

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. Oh, sorry, not concentrating. [Laughter.]

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Simply to say that it remains my intention to test the new Wales Act 2014 powers during 2018.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Okay. Well, thank you for that answer as well, because it gives me a bit of a steer on timing there. Last month, following a debate on potential tourism tax in Bridgend council, the Labour cabinet member for regeneration there said,

'As the cabinet portfolio holder for tourism, I would say that this is the least likely of the Welsh Government options for a new tax to find favour across Wales.'

And then went on to say,

'I think most people would strongly support the alternative proposal of a tax on disposable plastics.'

The Labour leader of Swansea council has today said he favours a social care tax. When Labour leaders in my region are already dismissing the tourism tax as an idea, would it not be a good idea to actually save some money by not developing that idea and concentrating on the other three options?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I'm very glad to see individuals around Wales taking an interest in this debate, and it's interesting to see that there are a variety of views out there, and that is exactly what we had hoped would happen by bringing forward the debate in the way that we have. It would have been very easy for the Welsh Government to have acted as the UK Government does in fiscal matters by keeping everything entirely to itself and attempting to spring a surprise on everyone else after a decision has been made. I have been very keen to go about our fiscal responsibilities in an entirely different way, to be far more open, to be far more engaged with people who have views. I listen very carefully to what people in all parties say about the four different ideas that we have brought forward. The leader of Swansea would be correct to say that, in terms of public reaction, there has been more support for a plastics tax than any of the other items that we put on our list, but that is not to say that there isn't interest in all of them or that the debate should not continue.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I welcome the fact that the Government has done exactly what the Cabinet Secretary has set out—has held an open debate on these new powers, and I welcome the fact that these powers are to be brought to us. Could the Cabinet Secretary confirm the timetable because in the past he’s told the Finance Committee and the Chamber that he will make a decision on the tax that will progress in the new year? Is he in a position to be more specific on what the new year means—are we talking about January, or does the new year extend to Easter, as it can from time to time within Government?

And secondly, to return to the fundamental point, may I echo Plaid Cymru's support for a plastics tax? We're not saying that there aren’t merits to some of the other ideas, but we do believe that this is a more comprehensive idea, which has been developed with public support and relates to a very clear pollution problem that is at the forefront of many people's mind. Of course, it doesn’t tax people for Government, but it taxes people in terms of behavioural change which, in my view, is an important principle for new taxation.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Simon Thomas. I can confirm that we are still working on the timetable. I want to move forward early in the new year, but I’m not willing to move forward without having undertaken the work. One of the things that has changed over the past few months is what the Chancellor said back in the budget in November, because the UK Government is now showing an interest in the area of plastics. So, we would like to have further information from the UK Government in order to see if there is something in the ideas that they’re considering that could have an impact on the possibilities that we are taking forward here in Wales.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

It is, of course, as Simon Thomas says, a very important area and the one, as I said to Suzy Davies, that has had the greatest interest from members of the public, and Simon Thomas is quite right to point out that different taxes have different policy objectives behind them. A plastics Act is about influencing people's behaviour, other taxes are more interested in raising revenue. Not all taxes have the same motivation behind them and that's part of what we will need to weigh up when we come to make a final selection of the tax—that we will test out the machinery of the Wales Act by sending into that new machinery.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Cabinet Secretary, I was very excited to hear in the draft budget that you were considering a vacant land tax. This is a real issue in my constituency, often with small pieces of land being hoarded for decades, usually the sites of former chapels or workingmen's halls, for example, and the cost to local authorities of trying to take action being prohibitive. As well as the economic loss of land not being brought into productive use, vacant land is often kept in an unsightly and anti-social condition, and this can have an impact on the well-being of communities that is often difficult to quantify. So, how will you take this into account when you look to develop the vacant land tax idea as a workable proposition?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Vikki Howells for that really interesting and important question. That now means, Llywydd, we've mentioned all four taxes that were on the shortlist this afternoon. I was fortunate enough to have a very useful meeting in Dublin just over a week ago as a result of co-operation with the Government in the Republic, where they made available a series of very senior officials in their Government to talk about the way in which their vacant land tax has been developed. It was both a very instructive meeting and a very encouraging one as well. They made it clear to me the purpose of their vacant land levy is not to raise money; it is to support the planning system and to make sure that, where hard work has gone into identifying pieces of land, making them fit for development, giving them the necessary permissions and so on, that those pieces of land do not then sit idle doing nothing. And they feel it's been a very successful piece of legislation in doing exactly that and, therefore, doing exactly the sort of things that Vikki Howells has outlined this afternoon.

A vacant land tax set and structured fairly could, I believe, help spur development in the Valleys, and housing, of course, is one of the five priority areas in our 'Prosperity for All' publication. This area too, though, Llywydd, has been slightly complicated by the budget on 22 November, because in it the Chancellor announced that he had asked Sir Oliver Letwin to chair an urgent review of the gap between planning permissions and housing starts in England. In what he said, the Chancellor said that he too was willing to consider 'direct interventions' if those were needed in order to make planning permissions that were extant turn into actual activity on the ground. So, here again, we are working to make sure that we have understood the work that will go on in England to see if it has any alignments to the ideas that we have discussed here in Wales. And a vacant land tax, I think, fits very well into that set of policy possibilities that are being opened up not just in Wales, but, clearly, across our border as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, yesterday was Welsh budget day. Can I ask you, with regard to that budget, and the effect of it on—[Interruption.] I thought you'd like that, Simon Thomas. The effect of the budget on businesses and small businesses in Wales: can you tell us how you feel that the budget has been good for small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales and, when you take into account the fact that the Federation of Small Businesses have estimated that, for every £1 spent by a participating local authority with local SMEs it generates an additional 63p to benefit its local economy, compared to just 40p generated by larger local firms, how are you ensuring that the Welsh Government's procurement processes are aligned to get the best bang for the Welsh buck and that we're going to make sure that we are procuring locally and procuring from smaller firms, not just larger firms?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Nick Ramsay for that. Well, Llywydd, I believe that the budget we discussed yesterday is aligned with the needs of Welsh businesses in very many ways. It has in it the finance that will be necessary to instigate our new permanent small business rate relief scheme, which provides over £100 million every year directly to support businesses in Wales. Businesses in Wales benefit absolutely directly from all the investments that we make in infrastructure—that's how their customers travel to their businesses. They benefit from everything we do in terms of skills and education—that's how the people they employ get the skills that they need to make businesses successful. They benefit from everything we do in the national health service—that's how people who work in Welsh businesses are able to make sure that they are fit and well to carry out the duties for which they are employed. Our budget supports business in a whole range of ways.

Specifically in relation to the National Procurement Service, as I said in an earlier answer, back in September I announced that I wanted to have a review of the NPS and Value Wales to make sure that it is able to do the job that we want it to do, and key to that is the question that Nick Ramsay has raised. I am very committed to the programme that my predecessor began in this area of making sure that more of the spend that is made though the public purse in Wales ends up being spent with Welsh suppliers and that that money spent with Welsh suppliers then goes on to generate jobs and to safeguard jobs here in Wales.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I'm glad you mentioned the National Procurement Service. I did raise this with you yesterday in the budget debate. I know that Andrew R.T. Davies mentioned it earlier. It is of key importance in terms of improving procurement procedures in Wales. The Wales Audit Office report into the NPS showed that there were weaknesses in the development of the business case for the NPS, which had not fully complied with the Welsh Government's usual procedures. That same report also highlighted that public bodies are not using the service frameworks as much as anticipated, resulting in concerns over its funding. In answer to Andrew Davies, you did say earlier that you are reviewing this. Can you give some timescales for when you think this review will be complete and you can bring its findings to this Chamber?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you, Llywydd. Yes, I have asked for that review. I expect it to report in 2018. It will use the report of the Auditor General for Wales as one of the core documents that it will apply in the work that it will do.

Nick Ramsay is quite right to say that NPS has not delivered everything that we had hoped for it. Part of that is because it is a member organisation and some of its members have not used its services to the extent that was originally anticipated. So, what I am keen to learn from the review is: is it a service that those members really want? The auditor general's report says that they say that it is. If they really want the service, then what are the barriers that are preventing them from using the service in the way that they have told us that they would wish to do? Because, if we can't provide a service that customers want to use, then it's always going to struggle to deliver the benefits that we believe were there to be harvested in the first place.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You've had a fair few questions now, today, on procurement. If I can use my final question to ask you about land transaction tax, but not in terms of the residential LTT, which you mentioned yesterday and the changes there, but in terms of commercial LTT, am I right in thinking that, from April, businesses greater than £1 million will be faced with rates of 6 per cent compared with, I believe, 5 per cent across the border—certainly, lower rates in other parts of the United Kingdom? And what assessment have you made of the effect that that will have on commercial business transactions within Wales, and are you confident that it won't be creating an uneven playing field, where businesses here will find it harder to compete than those across the border?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Nick Ramsay for that. He is right to say that the proposals we have brought forward in non-domestic LTT mean that businesses with premises below £1 million will have less to pay in Wales than anywhere else in the United Kingdom, and that is paid for by businesses at the very top end of the market having to pay a little more. Ninety per cent of businesses in Wales will pay less in Wales than they have in the past or pay no more. I've always heard it said in this Chamber that small and medium-sized enterprises are the lifeblood of the Welsh economy. That's where jobs are created, that's where the businesses of the future are created, and a reduction in costs for those businesses matters more to them, in the period in which they are establishing themselves and seeking to expand, I believe, than the marginal increase that there will be for transactions of very high value indeed. Now, I'm not saying that there isn't an impact, because costs go up and that is an impact. Do I think that the marginal additional sum in LTT will be the determining factor in business deals of many, many millions of pounds, with many, many far bigger issues at stake? No, I don't. The analysis that we've carried out, and Bangor's independent scrutiny of that analysis, bears that out. We think there will be more transactions in Wales as a result of the changes that we have introduced, and that that will be good for the Welsh economy.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Steffan Lewis.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. A great part of the omni-uncertainty that we're facing as a consequence of our separation from the European Union is our future relationship with the European Investment Bank. I understand, a few weeks ago, the British Government had a position of wanting to maintain some sort of relationship with the bank post separation, but are a bit light on detail, shall we say. I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary could update us on what he understands to be the British Government's aim in terms of the future relationship with the European Investment Bank, especially considering the fact that Wales has benefited, I understand it, to the tune of some £2 billion from investment from that bank.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Welsh Government's position is clear, that we believe we should remain a subscribing partner of the European Investment Bank. The UK was one of the founding members of the bank, and supplies a significant part of the bank's capital. Wales has been an enormous beneficiary of the European Investment Bank and we want to find a way of that continuing. When I raised this directly with the Chancellor of the Exchequer during a meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee, he said that he too believed that it would be in the UK's interest to have an ongoing relationship with the EIB. He was open to exploring different ways in which that relationship could be brought about, and he said that, if it wasn't possible to continue to have a relationship with the EIB of the sort we have, it would be necessary to re-create an EIB in the domestic context. I've always struggled to understand why anybody would think that it would be more worth while to have to re-create a whole institution of our own when we have an institution that works, and works very well for Wales, and with which we should surely be looking to secure an ongoing relationship the other side of Brexit.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Well, I'm sure that the British Government will change its mind by this time next week on that point and many others, Cabinet Secretary. You talk about exploring the options available post separation. I wonder whether one of those options that you've explored as a Government includes a relationship for Wales and the Welsh Government directly with the EIB. It is unprecedented, of course, but we are in unprecedented times, and also there's the other option, of course, of the Council of Europe Development Bank, of which the UK has never been a member, but has aims and objectives that fit very closely with the needs and aspirations of this country. Has there been an undertaking by Welsh Government to look at and to explore the options of having a bilateral relationship between Welsh Government and such institutions post separation, and whether or not they would require sponsorship from the UK Government, and so on?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I've had very recent correspondence with the EIB on behalf of some important Welsh interests that we are looking to continue to take forward. We've always had a very close relationship with the EIB. Adam Price and I both met with Jonathan Taylor, senior vice-president of the EIB, when he was in Wales in the last 12 months. I think it's just fair to say, Llywydd, that, from the EIB's perspective, they remain focused on their relationship with the member state rather than with Wales as a separate constitutional entity. That doesn't mean to say that we don't pursue Welsh interests with them. I have to admit that I was not myself much aware of the Council of Europe Development Bank, but I'm very happy to say that we will take a look at it as a Government to see whether there are new possibilities there for us in the Brexit context.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. I note the answer he gave to a previous question about not wanting to create new institutions when existing institutions work well for us, and I agree with that. However, perhaps some contingency planning needs to take place, because the loss of access to the European Investment Bank would be bad news for Wales and for the Welsh economy. In which case, given the recent UK budget, where fiscal transactions capital has become ever more fashionable—Wales has received £650 million in financial transactions capital, Scotland £1.1 billion, Northern Ireland £375 million—given the nature of those consequentials, could they form the basis for devolved Governments to come together to create a kind of Celtic development fund of our own, with the intention, perhaps, for the future of looking to develop into a Celtic development bank that could try to mitigate the loss of access to the EIB? We could look, of course, to examples in Scandinavia, where the Nordic Investment Bank is a mixture of devolved and sovereign Governments coming together, pooling resources for shared fiscal and economic goals. I wonder if that's something the Welsh Government might be interested to look at, so that we are as best prepared as possible for the impending separation with the European Union.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, it is very interesting that Steffan Lewis raises that possibility. Back in 2016, at a meeting with finance Ministers from the UK Treasury, Scotland and, at that time, the Northern Ireland Executive, the Northern Ireland finance Minister specifically put forward a proposal for what he called, I think, a Celtic investment fund. He did so because he explained some of the real challenges that Northern Ireland was facing in using financial transaction capital.

Now, our ambition has always been to make the very best use of anything that comes to Wales, but there are challenges in using financial transaction capital, and the idea was to put it all together in a single fund that could then be used more flexibly and maybe for some larger investment purposes. To be fair, the UK Government said that they were willing to consider that further and to be part of a discussion about it, because I think that they too have an interest in making sure that best possible use is made of the funds that are available here.

Very soon after that meeting the Northern Ireland Executive ceased to exist, and it's been more difficult to pick up those discussions since because they were pretty much led by some work that had gone on in Northern Ireland. But, when there is an opportunity to pick that up, I'm sure there will be a shared interest, certainly from Wales and Scotland. But, as I say, I think there was a genuine enough appetite in the Treasury to have a discussion about most effective use of the funds that are available.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will agree with me that, for the foreseeable future, the resources available to the Welsh Government depend crucially upon the health of the UK economy and economic growth, and we need to increase the national UK growth rate. He said to me in a debate in this Chamber a few weeks ago that there's no evidence in general that lower taxes boost growth. But, since then, the US Senate has passed a tax Bill to reduce corporate taxes from 35 per cent to 20 per cent. President Macron in France has announced plans to cut the corporate tax rate from 33 per cent to 25 per cent. Italy is going to cut its corporate taxes from 27 per cent to 24 per cent, Spain from 30 per cent to 25 per cent. Hungary has introduced a corporate flat tax rate of 9 per cent, down from 19 per cent, and in Geneva, because it's cantonally based in Switzerland, they're bringing corporate taxes down to 10 per cent.

John McDonnell has recently been talking about taking £36 billion out of companies' balance sheets by blocking certain unannounced tax breaks, and he even floated the idea of adding 2.5 per cent to the current corporation tax rate to pay for scrapping tuition fees. Does he not accept that the Labour Party is going in the opposite direction to the rest of the world and, if we are to compete with economies abroad, we have to have a competitive business tax regime?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, what I hear the Member describe is a competitive race to the bottom in which everybody thinks that the only way to get a competitive advantage over somebody else is to take even less tax away from business in order to pay for public services. I'm grateful to him for setting out that dismal league table, because it demonstrates exactly why I don't think that that is a sensible way for us to go.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I'm sorry that the Cabinet Secretary doesn't seem to think that the reality of what's going on in the rest of the world is something that should be at the forefront of his mind when he's designing a tax system for the United Kingdom or for Wales, because the way to end up at the bottom is certainly to carry on thinking along those lines.

To revert to the experimental tax case that Suzy Davies mentioned earlier on in relation to a tourist tax, has he not seen that Ian Edwards, the chief executive of the Celtic Manor, has recently said,

'Along with everybody else in our industry, I was stunned by news of a proposed new tourism tax for Wales being considered'

by the Welsh Government? He said that

'A tourism tax would seriously jeopardise our ability to continue our rapid recent growth as a resort and carry on making this valuable contribution to the Welsh economy.'

In the same sentence that the Cabinet Secretary uttered to me, in that debate that I referred to a moment ago, that there was no evidence that lower tax boosts growth, he also said that badly designed taxes can hamper growth. The Cabinet Secretary has certainly announced a number of ideas for hampering growth in the Welsh economy. I hope he will reject these ideas.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, there's little for me to add to what I said earlier on this whole matter. We're having a debate about different possibilities that exist for Wales. The views of anybody who has a view are welcome, whatever they may be, and we will take them into account when we come to make our decision. We will take the views of Celtic Manor into account. The Welsh Government is a very significant investor in Celtic Manor. It has received many millions of pounds in direct aid from the Welsh taxpayer. We will take its views into account, alongside anybody else's. That's the point of having a debate.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary has an open mind and he's not in a position today to announce any final decisions, because that's the whole point of the consultation process, and I appreciate that having put £22.5 million into Celtic Manor he should want to get a good return on that investment. Therefore, I hope that that's going to inform his decision taking in this respect as well, because Ian Edwards said further in the article that I'm quoting that

'Adding extra cost to staying in Wales would have just as damaging an effect on attracting business events as it would on attracting leisure visitors. Securing large conferences and association meetings is a very competitive sector and an additional tax on the thousands of delegates who attend these events would be a significant deterrent to those considering Wales as a venue.'

So, clearly, this is a vitally important issue for the whole of the hospitality sector in Wales, and the sooner we announce that we're not going to go ahead with a tourist tax, the easier it will be for them to relax and sleep easy in their beds.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I hear the case that the Member has made. He will be aware that others make a very different set of propositions. Other people would say that taking a very small amount of money from people who are clearly not short of money—they're coming to stay in the Celtic Manor—that a very small addition to their nightly stay would create a pool of money that could be further invested in enterprises like the Celtic Manor and other tourism possibilities that would attract more people into Wales in the future, and that investment of that sort, delivered by people who, after all, are enjoying the benefits of all the investment that the public purse has made in that sector—that that is not an unfair thing to ask of them, and actually creates a benign cycle in which small amounts of individual contributions are aggregated and allow significant new investments, that benefit the industry, to be made.

Now, I am not saying that the Welsh Government has come down on either side of this argument. All I'm saying is that in this area, as in all others, there are many competing analyses of what would work best, and the point of having a debate is to allow all those arguments to come out into the open, and then to be properly weighed up.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

3. What additional funding will the Cabinet Secretary allocate to the local government portfolio to tackle the recent floods on Anglesey? OAQ51411

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you to Rhun ap Iorwerth for the question. Welsh Government officials are in contact with Anglesey council on this matter, and a meeting is planned with the council to establish the cost implications associated with the flood damage. We will continue to explore ways to support the council where possible.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I’m grateful for that response, and I’m pleased that those discussions are ongoing. I’m also grateful for the positive indications given by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport a week ago on the possibility of assistance on the A545 between Menai Bridge and Beaumaris. There will be financial implications beyond road maintenance, of course, and I would appreciate any support when that arrives. But in more general terms, austerity, of course, and the pressure that there has been on local government funding through the Welsh Government, makes it more difficult for councils to build the kinds of reserves that they would desire to have in order to respond to urgent issues such as floods or other occurrences. So, is there any intention within Welsh Government to look at the possibility of creating some sort of new contingency fund that would respond specifically to the difficulties faced by councils now in building the kind of reserves necessary?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, we do have a system in place already and, on the whole, I think that the system does work. When things like this happen. Councils can come to the Government and we do have a meeting within the diary for that to take place. We do keep money in these reserves in order to be able to assist when things like this do take place. As I said, as a Government we are eager to see if there are things that we can do to help in the context of Ynys Môn at present. We can do so under the current situation and arrangements that we have, and we’re eager to do so.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact of the UK Government's financial austerity policies on Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ51421

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, Welsh Government research demonstrates that the changes to benefits and tax credits alone are removing over £900 million each year from the least well-off households in Wales. Residents of Merthyr and Rhymney are amongst those worst affected.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. I'm sure you will recall that in 2011, the then Tory Chancellor said that his budget was

'about doing what we can to help families with the cost of living'.

He added:

'we have already asked the British people for what is needed, and today we do not need to ask for more'.

Well, six years later, many people in our communities are still paying the price of those austerity politics, and on many occasions, Cabinet Secretary, you've stressed your concerns at the impact of austerity. So, can you confirm that, unlike the policies of the Tory Government in Westminster, the policies and investments made by this Welsh Labour Government will continue to support people living in areas like my own constituency of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, I think, has made a very important contribution on the floor of the Assembly over many months now, when she has made the case for investment in what she has called the social fabric of our communities—ways in which we can try to help to keep the safety net on which those families that I described so much depend.

Let me give just two examples of what the Welsh Government is trying to do to assist people in the Merthyr and Rhymney areas. We have maintained our council tax reduction scheme here in Wales. That means that those families that are having their benefits frozen or cut and their tax credits reduced in Wales don't find themselves at the same time having to put their hands in their pockets to pay the council tax. That's costing £224 million across the whole of Wales, but it puts £5.7 million directly into the pockets of those families in Merthyr, and it puts £13.6 million directly into the household incomes of the poorest households in Caerphilly.

At the same time, 1,592 children in Merthyr and 2,925 children in Caerphilly have benefited from our Flying Start programmes last year. These are just two practical examples of the way in which the social fabric of our communities is being defended and advanced by the Welsh Government, even at a time when the assaults on their well-being and their incomes are so severe from the UK Government.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact of the UK Government's industrial strategy on the Swansea bay city deal? OAQ51425

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for the question. The emerging thinking about the UK Government's industrial strategy has been taken into account by those developing the Swansea bay city deal over recent months. Now that the industrial strategy itself has been published, I look forward to discussing it with city deal representatives over the coming weeks.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. The UK Government's industrial strategy places a renewed focus on growing a data-driven economy and expanding research and development into artificial intelligence. The Swansea bay city region board are also focusing on the digital economy, and should be ideally placed to leverage the additional investment in future technologies. The biggest barrier facing the region will be finding sufficient numbers of people with the required skills to develop these new technologies. What plans does your Government have to increase investment in developing the necessary skills base within my region?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Caroline Jones for that important set of points. She's quite right to say that there are a number of ways in which the priorities identified in the industrial strategy also emerge in the 11 projects approved as part of the Swansea city deal; the life sciences are another example where there is a good deal of overlap between the two sets of possibilities.

Integral to the Swansea city deal is a strand that cuts through all 11 projects, which is about providing the skills that are necessary for the jobs of the future in the Swansea bay city region. One of the things that those responsible for the deal will now want to do is to make sure that in developing that strand within the city deal we take advantage of the possibilities that the industrial strategy may also provide. I know that those who are responsible for the deal are very alert to the need to make sure that they are designing that skills strand in a way that maximises all of the possibilities that there are for the residents of this part of Wales.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on whether the progressive principles proposed for the land transaction tax will inform his tax policy more generally as further tax powers are devolved? OAQ51423

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the five principles for Welsh tax policy were set out in June. They include the principle that taxation should contribute directly to the aim of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, creating a more equal Wales.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

The Cabinet Secretary's response to Nick Ramsay's third question earlier, about making the rich pay more, seemed to go rather more to what he may be doing with income tax, when he has powers over that, than land transaction tax. Does he not recognise that large commercial properties are more often than not let to multiple smaller tenants, whether they are retail, industrial or commercial, and that those who are deciding whether to develop a big commercial development will decide whether they want to do that in Cardiff or, instead, in Birmingham, Reading or Bristol? Does he not recognise the risk he is putting to cutting off that development by charging this premium rate of 6 per cent?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, all policies need to be assessed for risks that they may incur. My judgment is that the marginal additional sum of money that people in that position will pay through land transaction tax in Wales will not be the consideration that determines whether or not to make such an investment. There are many, many other reasons why bodies decide to come and establish themselves in Wales. I'm always trying to argue that the only thing that brings anybody to Wales is because we are cheap is not a way of attracting people to be part of our future economy.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 7—John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government preparation for the use of its forthcoming powers of taxation? OAQ51416

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank John Griffiths for that. Work continues to ensure that the Welsh Revenue Authority is well prepared for the responsibilities it will discharge from 1 April next year. Partial devolution of income tax from April 2019 will also require new services from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, the book The Spirit Level and much other evidence show that we all have much to gain from a more equal society in every way. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation this week stated that 400,000 more children and 300,000 more pensioners are living in poverty in the UK now than in 2012-13. The Social Mobility Commission have resigned en masse in protest, in part at least, at the gap between the rhetoric and the actual action and practice of the UK Government. While we wait for a UK Labour Government to create a more equal United Kingdom, are you able to tell us today what steps Welsh Government will take, when it has its new fiscal powers, to introduce a more progressive element to taxation in Wales and a more equal country?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank John Griffiths for that. The Rowntree figures, Llywydd, are authentically shocking in showing that the burden of austerity in our country is being carried by those least able to bear it, including—and I think it is genuinely shocking—the number of children in Wales and the United Kingdom who will find themselves living in poverty in the future as a direct result of those policies. That conclusion is not just the conclusion of the Rowntree foundation, it's borne out by Resolution Foundation, by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and by others in the way that John Griffiths said.

More equal societies bring with them a huge number of advantages. They enjoy better health, they have less crime, they have less fear of crime and maybe most importantly of all—and this is why the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank both, these days, publish documents calling for more equal societies—they do better economically as well. That's why the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 has the creation of a more equal Wales at its heart. We took a very modest step on that road this year with the way in which we are using our land transaction tax possibilities. Both can make getting on the property ladder easier in Wales for people on modest incomes and to support businesses at the small and medium-sized end of the spectrum. It was a small but symbolically important step and I'm very glad that we were able to take it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Leader of the House and Chief Whip (in respect of her portfolio responsibilities)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next questions are to the Leader of the House and Chief Whip. The first question is from Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

1. Will the Leader of the House provide an update on the Travelling To Better Health guidance in relation to Gypsies and Travellers? OAQ51433

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Health boards are expected to consider and monitor the health and well-being of specific vulnerable groups as part of the NHS delivery framework. 'Travelling to Better Health' provides guidance to assist health boards when planning and delivering services for Gypsy and Traveller communities.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I know that the Welsh Government has worked hard to produce these guidelines. However, when I visited Pembrokeshire last week with the cross-party group, a great deal of concern was expressed by the Gypsies and Travellers who attended the meeting about health provision and, in particular, getting access to general practitioners, and the loss, actually, of a dedicated health visitor who used to be employed by the Unity Project, to visit sites specifically. So, it was a general concern about health, so I wondered how far these guidelines were actually effective.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I was aware that the Unity into the Community project had been a fantastic resource for the community there, and it's very disappointing that it was not able to attract the funding it needed to continue. Nevertheless, we do expect Hywel Dda health board to be working with partners through the primary care clusters to understand the local health needs of all of those communities and to ensure equality of access and outcomes. 'Travelling to Better Health' makes it clear that restricting access to GPs or other health services is not acceptable and provides guidance about how to improve the GP registration for Gypsies and Travellers. The NHS Centre for Equality and Human Rights has developed a specific e-learning package relating to the health needs of Gypsies and Travellers, which will be rolled out for all healthcare practitioners by March 2018, and I will be working with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services to consider any further action required to ensure the principles of equality of access and health outcomes included in 'Travelling to Better Health' are being progressed and will make sure that the Member is updated and, if she wants to be, involved in making sure that those outcomes are effective.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch Llywydd. A pregnant pause; I was a little bit worried there, but thank you very much indeed.

I've been contacted by the Travelling Ahead service, which is supporting the residents association of the Back Bangor Lane Gypsy and Traveller site in Conwy, expressing concern that residents are experiencing physical and psychological ill effects from the level of noise from the adjacent A55. I understand that, although technical reports have identified that resurfacing of the A55 would help relieve this, the Welsh Government has responded only that this section of road will be considered for maintenance as part of the annual prioritisation programme for work. Are you able through your responsibilities and your brief to have a look at this regarding the general desperation that the community is feeling and the impact that this is having on their health and, they believe, on their rights also?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, indeed, I've had a number of communications from the community there and, indeed, from a number of other interested parties. I will be arranging to go up and visit the site as soon as I possibly can and to talk to the council about what they can do to alleviate the situation, which is clearly a difficult one all round. I'm happy to make the Member aware as soon as I've made those arrangements.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2 [OAQ51432] was withdrawn.

Question 3—Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that appropriate digital infrastructure is available for businesses? OAQ51392

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Through the Superfast Cymru scheme, we've connected businesses across Wales to superfast broadband, and our ultrafast connectivity voucher scheme is providing up to £10,000 for businesses to acquire an ultrafast connection. The Airband project has also connected around 2,000 premises on industrial estates across Wales.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm very grateful for your response, Cabinet Secretary and leader of the house. I'm also grateful for the fact that you're going to be visiting my constituency to talk about the Superfast Cymru roll-out in rural Denbighshire in particular, where, as you will be aware, the current statistics suggest that it's lagging behind significantly in terms of progress when compared to the rest of Wales, with just 84 per cent of premises actually connected versus 92.5 per cent across the rest of the country. That does have an impact on rural businesses in particular, many of whom already face difficulties because of rurality in getting their goods and services out to the marketplace. I appreciate that we've got the ultrafast voucher scheme in place, but many suppliers of alternative services are simply not able to supply either in those localities, so what are you doing to work with the industry to come up with something that is more commercially viable in order to extend the opportunities that superfast and ultrafast broadband speeds can provide to businesses in these situations in my own constituency?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

So, the issue with the industry is really complex, but basically the industry assures me—and I've asked for that assurance on a number of occasions—that business products are available everywhere in Wales. However, a large number of businesses can't afford to buy the ethernet connection that's being talked about there. We've put the ultrafast connectivity voucher in place in order to reduce the cost for businesses and, actually, it's more generous in Wales than anywhere else because of the proportions that we pay. There are issues, though, about market failure and the issue around the cost of some of the ethernet services. I've been on to Ofcom for some time about what they want to do about that. I'm happy to write again if the Member wants to give me specific businesses that are experiencing that issue and, of course, I will be in the constituency tomorrow to hear them for myself.

Obviously, the superfast roll-out is nearly complete at the end of this year. It isn't equal across Wales, as the Member will know—the contract is let on an all-Wales basis and it will be complete by the end of this year. We will then be putting in place the Superfast 2 project, and one of the things I'm very much looking forward to discussing in the Member's constituency tomorrow is what that community particularly wants to see in terms of the superfast project, and what we can do to make up for some of those shortfalls. It will be an interesting discussion, I'm sure. But if the Member wants me to write to Ofcom again about specific businesses or in general about his patch, I'm more than happy to do so.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Leader of the house, I have raised the question of car washes a number of times in this Chamber, but I make no apologies for raising it yet again. As long as people are being exploited in this way and the Welsh Government buries its head in the sand on this issue, I shall continue to press for action. So, will the leader of the house outline any actions the Government is taking to end this scourge in our society?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I assume the Member is referring to people being paid less than the minimum wage, and I share his concern that people should be paid the minimum wage in all business places. In my role as chair of the fair work board's phase 1, I've had a meeting with the enforcement authority, which is a UK-based enforcement authority, around the enforcement of the minimum wage, and we are looking at ways to ensure that the minimum wage enforcement provisions in Wales can be made better in order to—I completely agree—end the scourge of people being paid less than the minimum wage in any industry, anywhere in the country.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Well, I welcome that small amount of intervention, Minister, but I have to say, Dawn Frazer of the Car Wash Advisory Service said that everything bad you can think of for the British labour force is present in car washes—slavery, low wages, debt bondage, tax evasion and even sex exploitation of young women. So, just looking at that one aspect of low wages can hardly be said to be addressing this problem in the way that it should be addressed.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, if the Member has any specific details that he'd like to draw to my attention, I'd be most grateful to receive them, because that is quite a series of accusations. And I'd be very happy to look into any aspect of that that he's able to provide details of.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Quite frankly, it's out there in the media all the time. And I'm not quoting; I know you've called into question my statistics on this in the past, but it's out there with such things as the BBC, The Guardian, the Office for National Statistics, the New Statesman and The Independent. All of them have written about this and castigated the situation on a number of occasions, so the statistics and everything else are out there in the public domain.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you for that. I will have another look at it. We have a number of preventative programmes around several of the issues that you've raised, including modern slavery, prevention of sexual harassment in the workforce and the minimum wage provisions, as I've suggested already. I'm more than happy to have another look at it, but if the Member has any specifics he'd like to actually direct my attention to, that would be most helpful.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Members of your Government have described the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 as legislation that breaks new ground. Now, do you think that that is a fair description of how that Act is being implemented?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I've only just got to grips with this part of my portfolio, the Member will be aware, and I've yet to have a series of meetings with the officials who work in this area. I've not yet got a full grasp of that, but I'd be very happy to discuss this issue with the Member. I do, myself, have some concerns about the speed of implementation, but I'm not yet in a position to be able to detail them, and I apologise for that.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

We’ve seen a report by committee that has expressed great concern about the implementation of the Act—that it is sluggish, or some parts haven’t been implemented at all. This week, I received an update on the situation and these are the facts for you: there is no action plan over a year since the strategy was published; it appears that no guidance related to local strategies has been published as of yet; the expert group on healthy relationships hasn’t published its recommendations—and those were to be issued in the autumn; it appears that no work was done on the guidance for higher education institutions; no national indicators were published to show progress towards the objectives of the Act; the statutory commissioning guidance, which was to be published in July of this year, hasn’t been published; the national adviser has resigned, and no replacement has been appointed. Would you agree that the only thing that breaks new ground here is the incredible scale of lack of action in the two years since this institution passed this legislation?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, as I say, I'm not in a position to comment on the situation before I took control of this portfolio. Since I've been in post, which is only a month, I've had a number of meetings around, for example, the progress of the healthy relationships guidance, which I understand will be ready in the new year. We are in the process of appointing the new national advisor, and I've been involved in some parts of that—again, in the very early stages of my taking control of the portfolio. We launched the 'ask and act' guidance only last week, and I was able to do that at a meeting that had been prearranged with a number of people who'd been interested in that guidance, and we'd had a preliminary discussion about that. I absolutely see the Member's commitment and worry in this instance, and I can assure you that one of my priorities in taking this portfolio will be to ensure that the Act is indeed the groundbreaking Act that we would all like to see it being.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you. And I truly hope that we will see this progress as a matter of urgency now. And I thank you for your commitment, and I hope we will be in a far better position in a few months’ time.

And any legislation needs to be backed up by funding, of course, in order to truly achieve its potential. But, once again, I do have some concerns here, and Women’s Aid Wales have warned that further cuts to services such as refuges will lead to detrimental impacts for survivors of abuse, which could lead to loss of life. Can you now ensure that there will be no cuts to services such as women’s refuges and places for children? Under the circumstances, that’s the least the Government could do.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, I've had a number of discussions already about how we do the commissioning guidance, and what we're doing in terms of the national advisors going out. I've also had one preliminary discussion with my colleague here on my right about the financial arrangements for this. I'm not yet in a position to be able to make any pledges about where we are with that until I've got a better grip. But, I can tell you that I'm completely committed to making sure that this Act works, and that we do fund it, so that the people who need those refuges so badly do get them.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Modern slavery, clearly, affects or impacts across Wales, but there's a particular west-east issue in north Wales, where human trafficking through Holyhead port is a huge issue. North Wales lost its anti-slavery co-ordinator after three years of funding expired, when a charity was established—Haven of Light—to liaise with statutory partners, the voluntary sector, North Wales Police, local authorities, their lead officer in Anglesey on human trafficking, and so on. They've identified that the situation is getting worse. There's no safe house, reception centre facilities in north Wales, and the lack of an anti-slavery co-ordinator on a regional basis has created a gap, clearly, which they're filling. How will you engage, not only nationally, but directly with the north Wales network of bodies now working actively in this area, to tackle what is, worryingly, a growing problem?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

The Member raises a very important point. We've established the Wales anti-slavery leadership group to provide strategic leadership and guidance on how to tackle slavery in Wales, and also to provide the best possible support for survivors. The membership of that group includes the National Crime Agency, the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, Cymru Wales Safeguarding, and other UK Government departments, academia, BAWSO, and a number of other third sector organisations. We're sharing the learning from across Wales with other partners, including the UK Government departments, and the UK Independent Anti-slavery Commissioner, and we're starting to gain quite a lot of recognition for that work. But the Member will appreciate that slavery is a very complex crime to investigate and prosecute, and it's very complex to get the range of measures in force and properly resourced.

The Member raised a very specific issue, which I'm afraid I'm not across at the moment, since I'm new in the portfolio. I'd be more than happy to look at the specifics of that, if he wants to write to me about it.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you very much. One of the other concerns they raised with me was that the manifests used on the ferries are inaccurate, with names being made up by traffickers, and, of course, there's issues around access to ports in the context of Brexit, and so on. But, nonetheless, this is leading to people being able to exploit the system.

North Wales Police have produced a report and a systematic assessment of the risk and issues concerning modern-day slavery and human trafficking in north Wales, identifying particular organised crime groups working from outside north Wales, trafficking victims through Holyhead, and employing potential victims in nail bars and pop-up brothels. And there are also groups based in north Wales, linked by familial bonds, who are targeting vulnerable males for manual labour and canvassing. So, again, you refer to the all-Wales engagement you're having, and the UK engagement, but given that this is also a west-east issue in north Wales, with particular sensitivities, and the Holyhead port issue at the core, will you engage directly with them also?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Absolutely. I'm very much looking forward to going around the various organisations in Wales to talk about both how the national strategy works locally, and also to pick up the local issues which are around co-ordination, as the Member rightly identifies, and where the overlap of powers between devolved and UK Government responsibilities lies, so that we can make the most of those powers in tackling some of the really very terrible practices that he's highlighted. So, I'm more than happy to do that, and if the Member wants to invite me to see anything very specific, I'm very happy to take him up on that as well.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. And, finally, on this theme, in fact, the Haven of Light organised a conference in St Asaph cathedral, which I took part in on 28 October, with police representation, local authorities, voluntary sector and others presenting. The Salvation Army told us that seventh out of the 94 nationalities they worked with were British victims, people who originated within the United Kingdom and its constituent nations, who

'had been tricked and then trapped'.

So, both on an all-Wales basis, and in this case, a regional basis, what consideration are you giving not only to those people being trafficked from outside Wales and the UK, but those within the UK and Wales who are being tricked and trapped into exploitation and slavery?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, and that's a very important point, and we have a large range of Government initiatives that are designed to make sure that people have the right information to ensure that they don't enter into arrangements that they find themselves slowly sucked into, into situations where really they can't get back out. The Member has highlighted a number of issues. I'm aware of some that have arisen in my own constituency as well.

We will be working very hard to put a range of things in, first of all, to ensure that enforcement agencies understand what they're looking for and how to make sure that the people who are involved in those awful arrangements have the right information to extract themselves and the right advice; secondly, to put some programmes in place to make sure that people understand what they're being sucked into, and can put a stop to it early on; and, thirdly, to put the right support around the agencies that are involved to make sure that they recognise the signs of that starting to happen and can take appropriate preventative action. But, again, I make the same offer: if the Member has very specific things he'd like to me to look at, I'd be more than happy to do that.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

4. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on community cohesion in Mid and West Wales? OAQ51422

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. There is a strong sense of respect and tolerance in Mid and West Wales, with low levels of hate crime, and a very good community response to the Syrian resettlement programme. Where tensions do exist, we are working closely with partners, including the police, local authorities and communities, to reduce them as much as possible.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the leader of the house for that reply, and as this is the first opportunity I've had to do so, I congratulate her on her promotion, which I think, for what it's worth, was well deserved.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you very much.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thought her zeal and her courtesy in her previous incarnation was much appreciated, and I wish her well in her new position.

She may remember that I raised recently with the First Minister the case of Amazon in Jersey Marine advertising for workers through the Central European Recruitment and Contract Services Ltd. The company had contacted one of my constituents to say that they wanted to rent rooms so that these workers could occupy those rooms on an eight-hour shift basis, so three workers in one day. Would the leader of the house agree with me that this does nothing for promoting social cohesion because it creates resentment, certainly amongst low-paid people, because these are not well-paid jobs that are being advertised? The Swansea travel-to-work area, of course, extends well into Carmarthenshire. And as Amazon, which is, I'm sure, a perfectly good employer, received grants from the Welsh Government to persuade them to come to Jersey Marine five or six years ago, the Welsh Government ought to discourage Amazon from using companies of this kind, because that does breed resentment amongst ordinary people, and we all want to discourage that kind of resentment and promote community cohesion.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

If the Member would like to provide me with any specific evidence he has, I would be more than happy to receive it. I have a large number of my own constituents who work at Amazon and I've had a number of correspondence occasions with them over the past about some of their employment practices. I'd be more than happy to write to them with my new hat on if the Member can provide me with the evidence on which I could base such a letter.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Leader of the house, one way to develop community cohesion is to tackle loneliness in rural communities. You'll no doubt be aware of the Campaign to End Loneliness, which sadly shows that nine in 10 people in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire believe loneliness in older age is now more likely than ever. In light of this very serious statistic, what specific funding has the Welsh Government made available to communities to specifically combat loneliness and develop community cohesion? Will you commit to publishing a breakdown of where that funding has been allocated?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, we've a whole series of regional community cohesion co-ordinators, who have a range of duties amongst them, and one of their main duties is actually to make sure that all of the other agencies collaborate properly and come together with this agenda.

So, one of the things that I'll be doing is looking to see how those co-ordinators have worked in the past, to make sure that all of the funding that's available for a number of issues around community cohesion—loneliness is certainly one of them, isolation of older women, for example, in communities is a huge issue—to make sure that we make the very best of the combined set of programmes that we have across a range of portfolios in the Government, to make sure that we tackle some of those.

In terms of some of my own responsibilities, some of the issues that the Member has raised with me over the years have been around broadband and so on. Actually there is a big role to play in getting older people to be included digitally to make sure that they have things such as the ability to Skype grandchildren and so on, which although not any substitute for personal interaction, nevertheless, can assist greatly in terms of isolation from family. Inclusion in day-to-day activity can make a real difference to the way that somebody interacts with their family even if they're further away. So, we have taken that into account very much in designing some of those programmes. But I will be working with the co-ordinators to make sure that they are across all of those areas of cohesion.

In terms of the budget, I am not in a position to make any promises around the budget at this point, because I've yet to review all of the aspects of my portfolio that impacts on that, but I'm more than happy to report back once I've done so.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

5. Will the Leader of the House provide an update on Welsh Government support for migrant workers in Wales in preparation for Brexit? OAQ51408

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Workers from overseas contribute hugely to Wales's economy and society. Our paper, 'Brexit and Fair Movement of People', outlines a framework for future migration that meets Wales's needs and supports vigorous enforcement of non-devolved employment legislation. This approach is underpinned by our anti-exploitation code of practice for ethical employment in the supply chain.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Can I thank the leader of the house for that answer? Irrespective of our views on the merits of Brexit, there are thousands of migrant workers in Wales, including in my own constituency, who do important work and deserve total clarity as we negotiate our future arrangements with the EU. Would the leader of the house agree that while the UK Government has published a technical document for those EU citizens applying for settled status, which is suggesting a grace period of two years following Brexit, there remains a lack of clarity, particularly in relation to families, which is a worry for those people from Wales who work in the EU, as well as EU citizens working in the UK? Would you further agree that this is an unnecessary economic risk to the well-being of our country?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Indeed. I think the ongoing uncertainty is completely unnecessary. Welsh Government has been calling for confirmation of EU citizens' rights ever since the referendum. We're very aware that Brexit arrangements are causing many migrant communities anxiety across Wales and we're attempting to contact as many of the migrant community groups, social organisations and other support mechanisms in order to make sure that we can actively engage with communities to make sure they feel as settled as possible. Of course, we continue to engage with the UK Government to ensure the process for applying for settled status for EU citizens in the UK, as well as citizens from Wales who work in the EU, will be fair and proportionate. It's having a disproportionate effect in some other areas of real importance to the economic stability of Wales as well, including very important and world-class research, which I'm very concerned is being impacted by the lack of settled status for EU migrants.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can the leader of the house inform me whether discussions have taken place between the Welsh Government and the UK Government with regard to seasonal working permits following Brexit, and, of course, in looking at future arrangements?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, that's one of the things that we've been discussing in our Brexit preparedness arrangements, and our papers, I'm sure the Member knows, all reference the issue around seasonal migrant workers and other, very important elements of our society. We don't agree with quota arrangements, but if such an arrangement were put in place, then we would, of course, be pressing to have the very best quota arrangements for Wales to ensure that all of the communities that rely on very important migrant workers are actually able to continue to provide the valuable services across the Welsh economy that we know they provide.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

6. Will the Leader of the House provide an update on the implementation of the Welsh Government's response to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report on refugees and asylum seekers? OAQ51402

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. The Welsh Government is working closely with the stakeholders, including local government, health services and the Welsh Refugee Coalition, as well as refugees and asylum seekers themselves, to develop a new delivery plan. This is being done with close reference to the committee's report 'I used to be someone'.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. There is considerable interest in the committee's report in Newport, which, obviously, is one of the more ethnically diverse cities and areas in Wales, but also there are other areas in Wales that are similarly so. So, there is considerable interest out there and it's good to know that Welsh Government is working with refugees and asylum seekers.

I wonder if you could say any more about how the issues identified in the committee's report are being addressed, and likely to be addressed, and, in terms of that asylum seekers and refugees delivery plan, when the revised plan is likely to be published.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. A draft of the plan will be brought to the refugee and asylum seeker operations board on 16 January and subsequently presented at the refugee and asylum seeker taskforce meeting in mid March, in terms of the timing.

In the meantime, we've been working very hard to ensure that we take the committee's full, and very good report if I might say, into account in our completely new approach to how we look at some of these services. The Member shares with me a constituency that has a very large amount of asylum-seeker and refugee families in it, and I share his concern.

A number of good projects are under way. In my own constituency—and I'm going to do a shameless plug here, Llywydd, so I would like to alert people to it—a number of books, produced by the refugee community poetry association in Swansea, one of which is entitled My Heart Loves in My Language and which I defy anybody to read without being in floods of tears by page 3, which explains some of the isolation and desperation that people feel when they cannot express themselves anymore in the language of their birth. I am absolutely determined that we are going to make sure that those people's lives are happier, healthier and much better now that they've found their way safely to Wales than they were before.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Leader of the house, many asylum seekers and refugees may have skills that would prove valuable to the Welsh economy, but they are hindered by their inability, or limited ability, to speak English. The Welsh Government, in its response to the committee's report, acknowledged the importance of English for speakers of other languages courses . So, can I ask what progress has been made in updating the ESOL policy for Wales by March 2018 to ensure that the provision of these courses is sufficient to meet the demand in Wales, and especially south-east Wales?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

English for speakers of other languages, as the Member rightly identifies, is a fundamental part of being able to settle properly in a new country and actually for that new country to take proper account of your skills and your ability to contribute. As such, we have, as part of the Welsh Government's skills provision, protected ESOL funding for several years through various budgets. We also work very hard with the UK Syrian resettlement programme, for example, to make sure that English for speakers of other languages is properly distributed. But there are problems with that, and the differing levels of support for differing classes of refugees is not really helping.

We are making a lot of recommendations and are lobbying to the UK Government to make them understand the real problems that the resettlement programme sometimes has for people being disrupted in terms of their language learning. There's a whole issue as well with people who arrive in Wales who are speakers of minority languages in their own country. So, for example, if Britain were to have the misfortune of being a war zone and we were all escaping, then those of us who speak Welsh as a first language would struggle even more to acquire the language of the country that we arrived in than those of us who speak English. Those things are really important to take into account, when we design these programmes.

We also have a huge problem where we don't have a tapering provision, and so those people who have a basic grasp of English are often in the same class as people who don't have any grasp of English, and those people who might be heading towards employment are also in that class, and also no provision for people coming in at the bottom either, as there's nowhere for people to to proceed to. So, a large amount of work needs to be done here. A large amount of funding also needs to be attracted by that, and we will be lobbying heavily the UK Government to step up to the mark in terms of funding some of those resettlement programmes.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

7. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on the progress of accommodation assessments for Gypsies and Travellers under the Housing Act (Wales) 2014? OAQ51418

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. Earlier this year the Welsh Government approved the Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments undertaken by Welsh local authorities, which identified a need for 237 residential and 33 transit pitches across Wales. A total of £26.4 million has been allocated between 2017 and 2021 to address this need, and I expect local authorities to deliver against the need.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, we still have a problem with occupation of illegal sites, which causes great distress to neighbours around those sites, because they're not provided with the necessary facilities and infrastructure. There is still, obviously, a fairly slow identification of official sites that are appropriate to attract Gypsies and Travellers in places that they would want to settle for a while. So, can you give us any further information on how you're assessing these responses that you're having from local authorities on how they're going to implement this Act?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. We have an annual review of how the local authorities are progressing. All 22 local authorities have responded to the request, and the findings of the first review show that good progress is being made in almost every area across Wales. A formal review of the Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessment guidance will be undertaken in 2018, which will inform thinking about the next round of assessments after that. I'm aware of a number of issues that have been highlighted in various local authorities around Wales. I'm currently aware of 10 areas that have highlighted specific issue. I will be doing a tour of all of those areas to make sure I thoroughly understand the issues identified and that we can work with the councils in question to make sure that people's needs are met. When people are camping on unsatisfactory and not specific sites, then clearly that's not in the best interests of the people in the camps, and nor is it in the best interest of any of the people providing services or living around them.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

8. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on the progress of Superfast Cymru broadband roll-out in Pontypridd and Taff Ely? OAQ51396

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, 48,266 premises within Rhondda Cynon Taf can now access fast fibre broadband with an average download speed of over 64 Mbps, thanks to Superfast Cymru. That equates to around 95 per cent of eligible premises, and just over £13,144,000 of public funding has been invested in the project in Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer, and also thank you for the fact that we've achieved 94 per cent coverage in Pontypridd. However, that 6 per cent non-coverage is really significant for a number of small businesses, and attempts to resolve it have been incredibly stubborn and difficult to resolve. I wondered what sort of steps are being taken and what priority can be given to ensure that the remaining 6 per cent actually becomes resolved.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

That will be very much part of how we construct the successor project to Superfast Cymru, and I believe the Member has a number of specific issues in industrial estates, and he will have heard the answer I gave to Darren Millar earlier about some of the things we're doing for business in industrial estates. One of the industrial estates in the Member's area in Treforest has a number of servers. I had a meeting with BT only this morning, which is why I'm able to give the Member such a significant amount of detail suddenly. We understand that there's a bit of a problem about how the three overlap, so, with his permission, I will be asking BT to contact him direct to look at some of those issues. In terms of the 6 per cent generally in Wales, the whole point of the £80 million successor programme, superfast 2, will be to look at how we can address those people left out of the first programme and what's the best way of ensuring that we get the maximum coverage for our money.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I listened carefully to your answer, leader of the house, and congratulations on your appointment. Across the whole of the South Wales Central area, of which obviously Pontypridd is one of the key towns, there are these pockets of difficulty, shall we say, identified in Pontypridd at 6 per cent, but that could be anywhere across the South Wales Central region. I hear you've had an update meeting with BT, but it is increasingly really frustrating, as you can appreciate and I've heard you say time and time again, for the businesses and individuals that are in those pockets. What sort of timescale is the Welsh Government working on, along with BT, to try and have some of these solutions that you've alluded to in place so that that 6 per cent can be squeezed as tightly as possible down to a smaller percentage of the population that are unable to make those contacts? And, ultimately, what we'd all like to see is 100 per cent connectivity.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, absolutely. So, we're designing the second stage now. We're going to go to procurement as early in the new year as we can manage it so that we have a back-to-back roll-out arrangement with BT as they ramp down from the first one. I'm not saying for one minute that BT will win the second phase, but clearly we want to have a programme that's as smooth as possible. One of the ways that we're looking to do that is to design very specific local solutions in local areas. So, solutions in urban south-east Wales will be very different from solutions in very rural or semi-rural areas in mid and north Wales, for example.

There are some complications in south-east Wales around where the intervention area is for superfast. The Member will appreciate that this is a state-aid intervention, so it's a market intervention, and, for every intervention, we have to prove that the market has failed. So, if it wasn't included in the open market review that we did in the summer for superfast 2, then we will experience some difficulty in including it.

If the Member's aware of anywhere that's experiencing difficulty that's currently labelled as commercial, I'd be very grateful to hear about it so that we can incorporate that as soon as possible.

There will be a trade-off between getting as much speed to as many people as possible and getting true ultrafast speeds to some businesses that we can also discuss as part of the design of phase 2. In particular, the Member will have heard what I said to Darren Millar, his colleague, earlier around business connectivity. We've also employed a number of business exploitation experts for Superfast Cymru, and they're able to explain to businesses what their best commercial advantage might be. We have several examples across Wales of businesses that have waited patiently for superfast to get to them, and they've received superfast only to discover that it's nothing like adequate for what they need and they could have just upgraded with an ultrafast connectivity voucher years before if only they'd realised. So, we have a number of business experts who tour the country talking to businesses to make sure that that business understands what the connection they might actually want is, and assists them to get the best deal.

I've done a number of roadshows in various constituencies, and I'm more than happy to do one if the Member would like me to in his area. We can get the exploitation programme to do that as well. You can hear that I'm very anxious for businesses to understand what their best advantage is and not to wait for the programme only to discover that they could have upgraded, because we're very anxious that businesses in Wales get the full benefit of the internet, and all of the services and expansion and so on that that can bring, as early as possible. So, the business exploitation advisers are very good at making sure that businesses understand a business plan to get the right connectivity, and what they might get for their money in terms of money that they might contribute to it. So, I'd be very anxious to understand exactly what the detail of it is and to engage with the Member as much as possible.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

9. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on the Welsh Government's efforts to ensure the fair representation of women in elected roles? OAQ51434

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

The Welsh Government is committed to improving the diversity of decision makers in Wales. The diversity and democracy programme closed in March and we'll undertake a full evaluation of it with a view to learning from it and taking the diversity agenda further forward in the light of the evaluation.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you. Less than a third of all candidates in the 2017 local government elections were women, and only 27 per cent of those who were elected were women. The Government has consulted recently on electoral reform in the area of local government in Wales, but they were very disappointed to see that there was no mention at all in the consultation paper about the Government’s attempts to ensure fair representation for women in elected roles upon councils in Wales. Of course, political parties have a responsibility to ensure that there is fair representation of women and minority groups on councils within our internal processes of selecting candidates, but do you agree that the Government has missed an opportunity to lead here by not including this as part of the consultation process that was recently held?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, no, I think it's up to all of us to encourage the skilled women we all know to stand for election, and actually to make sure that our own political parties step up to the mark in encouraging as many women as possible to be involved at grass-roots level in terms of activism, and then leading them on through leadership programmes or whatever into proper democratically elected or democratic roles in that process.

You will know that my party has long had a very good record of having all-women shortlists, for example. I myself was elected off an all-woman shortlist. Positive action of that sort is necessary if we're to make any real inroads into what's been very slow progress on women accessing serious leadership roles.

As a result of the diversity in democracy programme, we did have 51 individuals from underrepresented groups participating. Sixteen of them stood as candidates in the local government elections, and four—all of whom were women—were successfully elected. So, there was a very positive outcome from that. Also, the number of female leaders in local authorities in Wales doubled following the local election in May, with four councils now being led by women. I'd certainly like to see that grow in the future. I'm very delighted that the leader of the WLGA is female—an excellent role model in this regard. We will be looking at an evaluation of the programme, though, because we want to be able to understand what we could have done to have got more people to come forward, and what we can do to improve political life—public life, actually—for women.

Far too often, the roles of women cross against the roles in public life. So, for example, provision for elder care, child care, support for family care and so on is absolutely essential to enable a woman, who is very often the carer—let's face it, it hasn't moved very much in my lifetime, that's for sure—is very often the primary carer, to make sure that they can be supported both in their caring roles and in their public role, whatever that might be—elected public role or voluntary public role or whatever. I'm very committed to making sure that that happens so that we can address the inequality that's lasted for so many centuries.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Neil McEvoy is not in attendance to ask question 10 [OAQ51407]. Question 11—Steffan Lewis.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

11. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on the action the Welsh Government is taking to tackle slavery in Wales? OAQ51412

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes. We are determined to do all we can with our partners to tackle slavery in Wales. We continue to raise awareness, provide multi-agency training, support victims, and assist in bringing perpetrators to justice of this heinous crime.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the leader of the house for that answer. She'll be aware, of course, of some heartbreaking and high-profile cases across the country in recent years, including in the Gwent Police force area. I ask, given the complex nature of modern slavery and the fact that a number of agencies are involved in tackling it and preventing it—some devolved, others non-devolved—what sort of co-ordination role is the Welsh Government able to provide to public bodies in order to ensure that we're all going in the same direction and this heinous crime can be eradicated from our country?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, indeed. The Member's quite right to describe it so. We're the first country in the UK to appoint an anti-slavery co-ordinator. We've established the Wales anti-slavery leadership group, as I was saying earlier in response to questions, to provide strategic leadership and guidance on how to tackle slavery in Wales, and also to provide the best possible support for survivors, which I think is a very important point as well. The leadership group does include a very large number of agencies, many of which are UK Government agencies, but also includes academia, a number of third sector organisations that are active in this area, and so on. The idea is to share the learning from Wales with other partners, including a range of UK Government departments, and we're starting to get some recognition for our work there, but it's a very complex crime to investigate and prosecute.

We need to do a lot more work with partners to develop joint training provision for senior investigating officers and Crown prosecutors, because a large part of this is (a) finding the people who are trapped in these things, and then getting a case together to actually prosecute—and then publicising the prosecution, because we do need to make sure that people who are engaged in this actually know that they will be caught and prosecuted. It's a very large part of that piece of deterrence.

We've delivered a consistent standard of anti-slavery training—that's actually quite hard to say, anti-slavery training—to 5,500 people across Wales, and there's an estimated 5,000 people benefiting again this year on that. And, of course, we've got the ethical employment in supply chains code of practice, which very much talks about all of our partners in public procurement, making sure that they ensure that their supply chains are free from these crimes. That will go a long way as well to driving some good practice into the supply chains to make sure that people are aware of how many of these things can actually be happening without them really realising. So, it will be very important for us to develop all of that learning in years to come, and I'll certainly be ensuring that we do so.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, amongst the vulnerable people who are entrapped in these despicable practices are often people with learning difficulties. I think it's very important that people that have services like your roof being fixed, your drive being done, your car being washed, keep an eye on those people that do not seem to be flourishing in that practice, seem to be very marginalised, shy and reluctant to engage, because they could well be people trapped in this way.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, absolutely. David Melding will have heard me talking about some of the work we've been doing as part of the Fair Work Board to look at enforcement procedures that could be brought to Wales and used by local authorities. At the moment, there's a UK enforcement authority, which is in the north of England, that covers the whole of the UK. I'm very keen to ensure that we work with that UK Government department to get a few pilot authorities here in Wales to see what we can do with local enforcement to actually—because I personally believe that there's a lot to be said for having some visible trials and punishments of people who are engaged in that, as a very serious deterrent to those who think that they can get away with it. Also, you heard me talking about the extensive training that we're undergoing. I agree with him that a public awareness campaign of that sort would also be very beneficial.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 12, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

12. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on the development of 5G technology? OAQ51413

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I'll be consulting on a new—. Sorry, it would helpful if I found the right question, wouldn't it, really.

We're doing quite a lot in 5G technology in Wales. We've been looking quite a lot through the city deals at developing some good test-bed pilots for 5G technology and also in the new park, the automotive park, that we've talked about. We're also using it as an adjunct to fibre broadband to see what we can do with combination technologies, and a very large part of this will be what the UK Government does with the spectrum sales. So, we'll be making a lot of representations to the UK that they shouldn't regard 5G as a cash cow, but should actually think about what part of infrastructure it might play in public roll-out of some of the new artificial intelligence technologies, particularly autonomous vehicles and so on. So, there's a lot of work to be done in ensuring that we get the right exploitative benefit, and that the UK Government actually steps up to the mark and perceives 5G, as I say, not as a cash cow, but as a very serious public infrastructure resource.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Absolutely, and I wouldn't disagree there. Others have congratulated you on your appointment to Cabinet today. We've already been working together in my role as business manager and you as leader of the house. I congratulate you on bringing digital connectivity from the ministerial benches to the frontbench. I have a kind offer to make to you to mark your new role in the Cabinet, and that is to use the Isle of Anglesey as a test bed for the development of 5G technology. People who know far more than me about digital connectivity tell me that, actually, in terms of geography, in terms of military presence—[Interruption.]—well, the fact that it's relatively flat, plus with the mountains nearby, actually, Anglesey would be a very good place to develop 5G technology. There's some good work going on at Bangor University as well in this field. I would be more than happy to facilitate in any way I can to make presentations to Government on how this could happen, but I would welcome, at this stage at least, a nod from Government that they are keen to look at test-bed areas in Wales that could include, and should, indeed, include, the Isle of Anglesey.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

We're very keen to support the development of 5G test beds right across Wales, and certainly I'm very happy to come and look, with the Member, at the possibilities on Anglesey. We are currently looking at a couple of test beds already. We've appointed Innovation Point to advise, stimulate and co-ordinate activity on 5G in Wales, including opportunities to secure funding from the test bed and trials fund. So, we'll be looking into that very shortly.

I mentioned Ebbw Vale and the automotive technology park already; also the digital infrastructure proposal in Swansea bay city region also focuses on investment in 5G technology and how applications through the city deal could support projects within the area. The Cardiff city deal is also looking at it. I would emphasise that it is important that the UK Government actually develops the proposal in the right way. We're not expecting to roll out 5G networks anywhere in the world until around 2020, so we have some time to make sure that happens. It is imperative, however, that the Government doesn't do anything that's counterindicitive to it being a really good public infrastructure resource.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Assembly Commission, but no questions were tabled.

4. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That brings us to the topical questions, and the first topical question is from Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

1. Following the latest in a long line of local bank closure announcements, what action is the Welsh Government taking to introduce a public bank in accordance with the research conducted by the Public Policy Institute for Wales? 81

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Ministers have consistently called on commercial banks to maintain a strong branch network presence in Wales. The issue considered by the Public Policy Institute for Wales was the establishment of a public bank that prioritised economic development. The Development Bank of Wales will now take that report forward.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Well, the Cabinet Secretary will, of course, be aware of the announcements that a number of banks have made about branch closures throughout Wales, including in my constituency. With these latest announcements, the number of branches that will have closed since 2011 in Wales now extends to 186 branches, and five of the 10 areas that have faced the greatest number of branch closures are in Wales, including Carmarthenshire. So, it is a crisis. I have read the report, which was commissioned by the Government, of course. It was published by the Cabinet Secretary for the economy as a result of a short debate held by Plaid Cymru on banking. That report—it's not entirely correct to say that it only refers to economic development, because it also mentions models such as the Hampshire community bank, which relates to community banking. Therefore, may I ask, please, Cabinet Secretary, what you are going to do in terms of this crisis regarding community banking for the citizens of Wales, who are now in a situation where, in many parts of Wales, there is no financial service available for them at all?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I am aware of the figures and the pattern that have emerged here in Wales.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

It is true to say that the report looked at a range of different models, but the weight of its consideration was quite clearly on how a public bank for Wales might be used to plug gaps in the wider economy, rather than looking at examples of how alternatives to high-street banking for customers coming in off the street might be developed. It does make a reference to the Hampshire model, although the last time that I asked for some information on the practical implementation of the Hampshire model, it wasn't looking as though it had made the progress that was hoped for by its originators.

The Public Policy Institute for Wales report says that the introduction of any model would be 'very challenging and complex' here in Wales. So, I think that the answer to the developments that the Member rightly points to may not be in the public bank debate that is very healthily going on in Wales, but in other things that we might be able to do: making sure that the Post Office is well placed to take on a wider range of banking activities, using the support that the Welsh Government provides to the post office network in Wales, making sure that credit union membership is available right across Wales, using the nearly £0.5 million of additional investment that we're providing for credit unions this year—I've this week discussed with some credit union interests whether financial transaction capital might be useful to them in facing some of the challenges that they have to get over—and, by that community-level activity, to do what we can to make sure that the services on the high street that people have used hitherto in banking, but are, we have to recognise, using less and less—that we still have high-street access for people who need it.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Cabinet Secretary, the figures I have are that 152 banks have closed between 2011 and 2016, with 20 more to close in 2018—there are yet another two in my constituency, in Treforest and Talbot Green. The most worrying aspect to this is the total lack of any social or community responsibility from the banks, even in terms of the most basic consultation with those particular communities. I've met consistently with banks every time a closure has been announced. These are corporate decisions that are taken—there is no engagement, no consultation. When you ask about other banks, because one bank will say, 'Well, we're closing Pontyclun because you can now use Talbot Green', the next one is that Talbot Green closes, and they say, 'Ah, well, you can now use Treforest', and then they close Treforest. So, every time we discuss these matters with the banks, not only have they broken all of the promises they made—they did at one stage have an agreement that there would be no bank that would be the last bank, they agreed it with the trade unions, and that's been broken. It seems to me that there is a total contempt, almost, for the concept of customer service in favour of product sales from centralised and online banking.

What I'd ask for—. I welcome what you say about the Post Office and credit unions, because it seems to me that those are things that we have to look at, but it does seem to me that we do have to press—I understand that this is undoubtedly a UK Government matter—for a statutory basis to consultation with banking services. Banks are all too happy to take public money when they get into a mess and they require support from public funds. It seems to me that it is not unreasonable, as the Labour opposition in Westminster has asked for, for there to be a statutory obligation on banks to provide a public service and at least to have a meaningful statutory consultation process.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that very useful contribution. I'm sure every single one of us here, at constituency level, are dealing with the consequences of bank closures in urban and in rural Wales. I recognise what the Member says about the nature of consultation, which often does seem to be carried out simply to confirm a commercial decision that the bank has already taken. A statutory basis for consultation would strengthen the rights of individuals and their representatives to make sure that proper arguments about access and equity—and the needs of different populations and groups within populations—could be properly put to banks, at least with some confidence that those views were being properly articulated and heard.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can I agree with the contribution from Mick Antoniw? I would say there's not one Member in this Chamber who's successfully been able to change a bank's mind once they've taken their decision. I have previously raised in this Chamber the idea of the Government facilitating discussions between the bank and the Financial Conduct Authority and other partners to explore a community banking model that would see banks share services. Now, I've heard what you've said about post offices and credit unions, but when I've raised this proposal before with your colleagues in Government, in the Chamber here, I've always had a positive response. The First Minister gave me a positive response earlier this year, saying that he would consider that proposal. But, can I ask what developments there have been? I don't really want to hear one word saying it's a good idea; what I want to hear is an update. Have you met with the banks? Have your colleagues met with the banks? Have you had discussions with the Financial Conduct Authority? Can we make progress on Government facilitating discussions with the banks to take this forward?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, as the Member will know, this is primarily the responsibility of my colleague Ken Skates in taking forward the suggestions that he has made. The note that I have is that, as a result of a previous question that he raised, Welsh Government officials have had discussions with regional leads in the banking industry to look at ways in which bank premises in rural locations, for example, could be repurposed to help deliver wider community services, and that those discussions have also touched on the community facilities programme that we have as a Welsh Government to see whether existing facilities that are being adapted with community facilities and activities programme funding could include a banking purpose in the way that services from those premises are provided in future. I'll make sure that my colleague knows of the question you've raised this afternoon. I think you can be assured that it has been more than just words, that actual meetings have taken place and a potential agenda for action is being developed as a result of those meetings.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

To give a flavour of the scale and pace of change in this industry, about 16 years ago as a Member of Parliament, I remember opening the first cashpoint in Llandysul—I get all the glamourous jobs. Sixteen years ago, I opened the first cashpoint in Llandysul. I took out the first £10 from the first cashpoint in Llandysul. At that stage, there were four high-street banks in Llandysul, 16 years ago. Now there are none whatsoever. The last one is going. It's a market town left with no banking whatsoever. You've got to go 10 miles down to Newcastle Emlyn, at the very least, to get to a bank. That shows the pace of change that's happened in the industry. Technology has taken over. Yes, people are doing online banking, but my particular concern today is that small and medium-sized businesses cannot often access that, and we still have a real need, in rural areas, for cash banking for our businesses and that's not being provided.

Yes, there's an opportunity to strengthen the post office network, and I would very much urge that we use that while that network is still there to a certain extent and put some spine into that. But is it also not the time to start to consider, with your colleagues in Westminster, that banking needs some kind of statutory obligation around it? It is no longer possible to be a member of modern society without access to modern banking accounts—and it's certainly not possible to be a business in that way—and yet, we're in danger of ripping out economic development from parts of our rural areas precisely because of this reason. We don't let it happen for broadband—we ensure that there are statutory reasons why you must provide broadband to parts of rural areas. We must be looking at a statutory obligation for banking, and access to banking, for our businesses, our customers and our citizens in rural areas.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Simon Thomas for those points. My party had exactly that policy in our manifesto at elections this year, and, I think, in 2015. It's based on the 1976 community banking Act that's been there in the United States of America ever since that time. Where a bank retreats from a high street, it has a legal obligation to ensure that there are replacement facilities for those, where a need can be demonstrated, and to provide the funding that creates those facilities.

Where there are rural communities, as in Llandysul, where no banking facilities exist—or, even, in urban communities. I could've replicated his account for the high street in Llandaff in my constituency. Now, you could say, 'Well, Llandaff is in an urban area and you could find another bank not that far away.' But actually, for certain groups in the population who are not used to online banking, and for whom mobility can be a difficulty, the need for a face-to-face place where you can go and transact business is very real.

It's just those sorts of identified needs that the 1976 banking Act in the United States was designed to address, and I think it lends strength to the argument the Member has made about a statutory framework to ensure that individuals and areas are not abandoned from essential services in this area in the future.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

I think we're all singing from pretty much the same hymn sheet in relation to this question, Cabinet Secretary. The last couple of weeks have seen NatWest announce another swathe of closures across Wales—one in Chepstow in my constituency. The last swathe of banking closures was bad enough out in rural areas, but those cutbacks now seem to be extending to larger towns as well, which I think is deeply worrying for our constituents. I think if I would have one criticism of this question, it's trying to do a bit too much, I think, which isn't really a criticism at all, because, obviously, you've conflated two concerns: on the one hand retail banking, but then also the development bank and the role that that has to play.

I think, Cabinet Secretary, you were quite right in saying that, yes, the Welsh Government should be—and, we believe, certainly reforming Finance Wales—setting up a development bank of some type. But that is no substitute for private retail banking out there that's public facing. So, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of, on the one hand, the development bank, will you give an assurance that, when that is finalised, it will, very much as our 'Invest Wales' policy had a few years ago, propose a public-facing high street presence as much as possible so it's accessible to business out there when they need it? And secondly, on the issue of retail banking, yes, it probably does need to have a far stronger statutory footing. I found myself agreeing, maybe worryingly, with Mick Antoniw on this matter. I think he made some excellent points.

Is it possible to have—I appreciate this is not totally within the remit of the Welsh Government—but is it possible to have some sort of forum? We obviously all agree here on the need to retain that retail banking out in our towns and rural areas. Is it possible to have some sort of forum where the banks know full well how we feel about these closures, that they are made to have a far more effective consultation, and that when they say that this is the last round of closures for so long, that when we, as AMs, listen to that, and they convey that to our constituents, that then they have to stick with that, and we don't see a situation, as we have at the moment, where more closures are happening? And all of us—our postbags are full of concerns from people who really do feel that, without internet banking, they're not going to have any access to banking at all.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, Nick Ramsay makes a number of important points. I don't think the banks are in any doubt about the strength of feeling that their actions engender in local communities and on behalf of people who represent those communities. Their answer to you would be that they are commercial organisations and they are acting commercially. Our answer, in return, has to be that even commercial organisations have certain obligations to the communities that they serve, because their ability to be successful commercial organisations depends, very often, on the public infrastructure that surrounds them and allows them to do business.

So, I agree with him about the need to make sure that there is no ambiguity in the messages that we give to the retail banking sector about those obligations. I agree with other contributors this afternoon that more could be done to place a statutory framework around that in terms of consultation and in terms of replacement services. The Welsh Government plays its part in that, albeit always having to recognise that most of these responsibilities are ones that do not lie in our hands.

In relation to the first point that Nick Ramsay made about an accessible service from the Development Bank of Wales, that is exactly what our ambition would be. The best way to achieve that is something that we will want to continue to work on, but the principle of making sure that the Development Bank of Wales will be readily accessible to those who will want to use it is one with which we would have no disagreement.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, I agree with most of the sentiment that has been expressed in this Chamber; you can't dispute that. One of the points that has been made about the assurances Members have received from the banks about neighbouring banks taking up the slack, as it were, is one of the most frustrating arguments that has been put time and time again. In Llantwit Major, when NatWest shut their branch there, Cowbridge was pointed to as the neighbouring branch that would take up the slack. You queue out the door some days in NatWest in Cowbridge to use the facilities there and yet on 4 June that bank, next year, is due to close. So, it's the inconsistencies with the information that banks are providing.

I hear what you say about the commercial nature—and I agree; banking is a commercial business. But what assessment has the Welsh Government made in relation to the gaps that will now appear in the ability for small businesses in particular to use banks in the traditional way of seeking advice about loans and financial facilities, but also to do their business banking? I had a meeting earlier in the year with the investment bank for Wales, and the chairman made this point: that there is evidence there that shows that commercial banks are withdrawing from certain parts of Wales and withdrawing their lending facilities, which will have a detrimental impact on businesses. So, has the Welsh Government made any assessment of the wider context that these closures have, not just for the individuals who have got accounts with the banks, but also businesses who depend on a source of finance and also to do their day-to-day banking?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, let me begin by agreeing with what Andrew R.T. Davies has said about the inconsistencies in some of the arguments that we hear from the banking industry and how some of the undertakings that it has previously given, as Mick Antoniw said, never to be the final bank to close—that's a promise that they have failed to live up to, we know, in many instances. From the public's point of view, it is often quite difficult to understand the link between their own experience of a bank that is always busy when they visit it, which seems to be working flat out, when the bank says to them that it is closing because its services are no longer needed.

What I will do is make sure that the points that have been made this afternoon, particularly in relation to access to banking services by businesses in those parts of Wales where the banking coverage is now skeletal or non-existent—I'll make sure that Ken Skates has heard those points clearly and that he is able to take them up in the plans that he will be developing to make sure that businesses in Wales are not frustrated in their ability to conduct their own affairs or to grow because there aren't services for them that they are able to access.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary. The next question—Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide assurances that Pinewood remains fully committed to continue operating its current studio in Wales in light of the lack of information provided by the Welsh Government in response to a series of written questions on this matter? 84

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Diolch Suzy. I'm replying on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary. Pinewood remains committed to operating the studio in Wentloog and continuing to promote Wales internationally as a destination for high-end tv and film production.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

That's an encouraging response, Minister. I just want to make it plain that this question is not raised as an attack on the growing film industry in Wales, despite comments from Welsh Government to that effect. I'm raising it in an attempt to break through the lack of transparency surrounding how some decisions were made and whether representations made by Welsh Government about the positive outcomes we should expect from Pinewood in particular are proving justified.

So, first of all, last month, Welsh Government's decision log confirmed that Welsh Government had signed off a new management agreement for the Pinewood Studio facility in Wentloog. Considering that the Government spent £5 million to buy that facility in 2014, but, due to rent structure, it didn't see any rent return on that for the first two years, you can understand, perhaps, why I would like to know why that agreement needs restructuring. How much rent, and other income, are you expecting to be paid, and by when, from that restructured arrangement?

Secondly, the productions of the studios—Journey's End, for example, has recouped just £80,000 of the £850,000 received from Welsh Government. And Take Down, or Billionaire Ransom, as it's rather ironically known in the US, has recovered less than a third of its £3.1 million investment. Now, I understand that the income-generation end of film production is at the end of its cycle, and I know that supply chains have benefited from these investments. But if Welsh Government is going to take risks—and we do approve of that—then the processes for managing those risks need to be open to scrutiny, partly so that we can find out when you're expecting returns, and how much, by a particular date, and also on potential conflicts of interest. Because the gatekeeper of the media investment budget is another branch of Pinewood—one of these films is a Pinewood production—and it, of course, has been filmed at Pinewood Studios. In keeping Pinewood committed to Wales, can you also commit that your department will answer my questions, which go to the heart of this lack of transparency, including the one that I've asked today?

And then, finally, you announced very recently that Pinewood will no longer be the gatekeeper of the media investment board, which suggests that maybe their bonds with Wales aren't quite as strong as we might have hoped. Can you tell me whether that was at Welsh Government's request, or their request, and whether the decision was influenced in any way by questions raised in the House of Keys, in the Isle of Man, where there's a similar arrangement?

You can see where my concerns are coming from. We've got three issues there, which kind of raise questions about Pinewood's commitment, and I'm really looking forward to some meat on the bone to the reassurance that you gave me a little earlier. Thank you.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, I don't know about meat on the bone, because I'm not a very good butcher. However, I would like to emphasise that the commitment to Pinewood remains, and that that commitment will mean the operation of the studio under a new agreement. Aspects of that agreement remain commercial in confidence, but I am very happy to offer you a meeting, where I would be able to discuss in greater detail how these arrangements have been arrived at. I can say that, whereas this does indicate that Pinewood is no longer concentrating on film investment, and the assessment of film investment, in the previous way of agreement, I can tell her that the work that Pinewood has helped to undertake to elevate Wales as a premier production location has given us already global advantages. The situation in the Isle of Man, I have to tell her, is also changing, as far as how Pinewood is operating.

I will apologise to her for any delay in replying to the questions that she has asked. I welcome her detailed scrutiny. She did ask questions going back to 2011, but I can assure her that the amount of time that has been used to respond to those questions has been to ensure the quality of the information.

I can also say to her that there is a very important element of supply chain in that studio, including essential supply chain companies, such as Andy Dixon Facilities, Real SFX, and Lubas Medical, and you must be aware of that. And that is an indication of the way in which the creative industry sector has shown significant growth in the last few years.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Would the Minister accept that part of the broader context to some of the questions that Suzy Davies has been asking, over a period of some years now, and part of the challenge for the Government, is to be clear as to the policy intention in terms of the investment in the film industry? Is it to attract international companies to produce more here in Wales, or is it, from an economic development perspective, to invest in Welsh companies, or is there a cultural objective, that is to have content—stories from Wales, if you wish—on the silver screen? I think, from his background in the days of Sgrîn, perhaps he would be aware of that tension that can exist. And can we have, from the new Minister, a little more clarity on the policy intentions of Government, so that we then, in scrutinising this, can assess to what extent the Government is reaching its aims and objectives?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much for that series of questions. I would expect no less from the Member. But my answer, very clearly, is that the three objectives that he has set out are interlinked and all relevant to the film industry, of any kind. And what has happened here, of course, is that commercial changes have taken place in the ownership of Pinewood and that that has led to new priorities for the company in the way that it works, and the Welsh Government has been working very closely with Pinewood on that situation.

In addition to the international investments and the attempt to attract international companies to produce in Wales, and bring jobs to Wales, we as a Government have also, through the arts council, invested in Ffilm Cymru Wales—and I look forward to working with them—which has a greater cultural emphasis, in the usual meaning of the word there, although I personally consider all film production, certainly, as part of our culture—it has more of an artistic value in that regard, and that work will continue. And as I have extended an invitation to Suzy, I’ll also extend it to you to have an intelligent conversation as to the Government’s aims to this end.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister. The next question, David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

3. Will the First Minister make a statement on the postponement of new energy powers under the Wales Act 2017? 86

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

My objective is to provide a smooth transition for the development industry and communities. The relevant UK Government department, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, initially agreed to delay commencement. However, at the insistence of the Wales Office, the planning provisions will now be commenced prematurely, placing Wales at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the UK.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I'm not sure I understand that answer. These powers relate to fracking and the electricity generation stations with 350 MW or less, and they're now being delayed until October 2018 and April 2019—as far as I can work out because the Welsh Government does not consider that it has the capacity to take on those new powers at the moment. And I think that's what you've got to answer, given that we've known these powers are coming; it's been a long process. And if there is a problem with present capacity, how can we be sure that Welsh Government will be capable of exercising these powers in October 2018 and April 2019, or will we have a further postponement?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think I perhaps need to put some facts out here. I think there's a bit of mischief making by the Wales Office. I don't want people to think we've been sitting around doing nothing. You made reference to capacity. So, we've been working with the industry, we've been working with developers, we've been working with planning consultants, we've been working with Natural Resource Wales, to ensure that we can scope what's required. There was an agreement between BEIS and Welsh Government that those powers could be delayed. The Wales Office then got involved and that is now no longer the case. And, as I said, we've now been placed, I think, at a disadvantage. I know people have asked me why Scotland are able to do things quicker than us, for instance, and I should say that the case in Wales is very different to Scotland. Scotland was transferred directly to a fit-for-purpose consenting process that did not require transitional arrangements. We were not in that position, and because we'd been placed into inferior regimes, for instance, we needed to have a transitional arrangement, and that was agreed between ourselves and with BEIS.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm still uncertain as to what's happened here. Can you, Cabinet Secretary, just confirm that you did ask for these powers to be postponed, and for the implementation to be postponed? The only thing we've heard as an Assembly, officially to date, has been that all these powers come into force on 1 April next year. And last week, or it might have been the week before—apologies—I asked both the First Minister and the Counsel General about the implementation of fracking powers, which are the petroleum powers that we're talking about, and neither of them told me there was any delay to these powers coming in. Both of them accepted my question on the premise of these powers being available in April 2018.

So, is it now the case that they're not coming in, as I understand it, until October 2018, and the further powers on electricity generating stations, so the 350 MW powers—I take it those are not until April 2019. Can you just confirm that's the position, and also confirm that this is at your request, and also then confirm what you're going to do as a Government to provide the security and assurance that we need that you're capable of exercising these powers?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can confirm those two dates: the October 2018 and the 2019. And, yes, we have requested that, because Welsh Government and BEIS officials, and it was back in 2017—during the passage of the Wales Bill, agreement was gained that the new executive powers would not commence in April of next year. So, as I say, that was the agreement reached between Welsh Government and with BEIS until the Wales Office intervened.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

As a result of this delay in the transfer of powers, is it the case that the UK Government could impose fracking on Wales, even though this could be against the wishes of the population?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

No, it's not.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

5. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the 90-second statements—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Llywydd, last Thursday, I attended a ceremony in Alexandra Gardens in Cathays Park to re-dedicate the Gift of Life stone in memory of all organ and tissue donors. This memorial stone was places in the park 10 years ago with the support of Kidney Wales and families whose loved ones had donated their organs and tissues. Two families were from Barry: Colin and Bet Burgess and Gaynor Taylor. Louise Burgess and Richard Taylor carried donor cards when they tragically lost their young lives. Colin Burgess wrote the epitaph on the Gift of Life stone: 'They cared for those they helped, and those they helped, remember'. Both families support the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013 to give deemed consent for organ and tissue donation and they welcome the lead Wales has taken in the UK.

Two years on since the Act, there's been continued and increased public support for the new organ donation system in Wales and it's good to see the Welsh public embracing the changes that are designed to save lives. Colin, Bet and Gaynor continue to speak up for organ donation as a precious gift so others might live and I thank them for their courage and inspiration.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Llywydd, Friday, 1 December marked the seventy-fifth anniversary of the publication of the Beveridge report on 'Social Insurance and Allied Services'. This had been commissioned during the second world war by a committee responsible to Arthur Greenwood, then Minister with responsibility for post-conflict reconstruction. It's task was twofold: first, it aimed to carry out a survey of existing social insurance schemes; second, it was to make recommendations for the future, and it is in this regard that the report, when published in 1942, had its most far-reaching consequences.

Drafted by liberal economist, William Beveridge, the final document proposed a range of reforms to the existing system. At its heart were proposals to slay what Beveridge termed the five 'giant evils' in society: squalor, ignorance, want, idleness and disease. Instead, government should take steps to provide citizens with adequate income, healthcare, education, housing and employment. It was largely left to the 1945 Clement Attlee Government, having won the general election on a platform that committed Labour to addressing the 'giant evils', and, of course, to the role of Aneurin Bevan, to enact politics outlining the welfare state that we still recognise in this present day.

There have been changes in the intervening years. Nicholas Timmins, biographer of the welfare state, notes some of these would be approved by Beveridge, others would be totally unrecognisable. But it is in its basic commitment to a shared set of values and services that we can best commemorate the report today.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

On Monday, 11 December we will be commemorating Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, or Llywelyn ein Llyw Olaf, Llywelyn the Last. Llywelyn was the first, of course, to be acknowledged Prince of Wales, and through the Treaty of Montgomery in 1267 the King of England, Henry III, had to accept terms and acknowledge that he was the leader of Wales and that Wales was an independent country, to all intents and purposes. Llywelyn introduced a civil service and a taxation system to administer Wales under his leadership. But this order was not acceptable to Edward I, of course, and he forced Llywelyn to surrender land and return to his stronghold in Gwynedd, having lost ground.

In March 1282 a rebellion began as Welshmen attacked Hawarden castle in Flintshire in order to regain lost lands. But the rebellion came to an end six months later, with Llywelyn having been separated from his 7,000-strong army, and killed in Cilmeri by Stephen de Frankton, one of Edward I’s soldiers. His head was sent to the king in London and was paraded through the streets of London to be shown to the people of the city, before being left upon an iron post outside the Tower of London.

Within months, Gwynedd lost all its royal insignia and Wales lost its status for the time. I will be wearing ivy on Monday and I would suggest that you should all do so in memory and commemoration of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, and to demonstrate that the independent spirit of Llywelyn the Last Prince of Wales is still alive.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, and I call on David Melding to move the motion.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Llywydd, we've lost all sense of excitement about democracy. It has become the insipid background to our daily life rather than the force that actually makes our lifestyles possible. One should not become maudlin; open, democratic societies are capable of remarkable renewal, as we have seen in the last 25 years on questions of, for example, sexuality. Yet in the political and economic fields, things look far more jaded and this can only undermine democratic culture generally.

Greater citizen participation is needed because the work of democracy cannot be merely sub-contracted to Assemblies and Parliaments. The digital age creates both a strong demand for greater participation and the technological means to achieve it, but we have been slow to respond to this demand for citizen participation. One consequence is that political elites have been viewed more as a gentry class than the appointed officers of the people. We need a new partnership that closes the stark divide we often see between politicians and citizens.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

A rough definition of a participative democracy would be one where citizens take on greater responsibility for decision making. This would not reduce the need for representative institutions, far less central Government—we are not heading back to Athens—but it would mean that public participation amounts to a lot more than periodic elections. When observing the public mood on polling day, most are struck by the solemn tone; it is not a time of carnival. It is this reservoir of purpose that we need to tap: active participation and active citizenship renewing our democratic institutions.

In Wales, we might go further and constitute a citizens' chamber of this Assembly. This would not require 60 members of the public to serve full-time for five years—that would be a burden and not an act of citizen service. [Laughter.] Citizen service should be a general obligation that is occasionally called upon, as jury service is now. The citizens' chamber could be a pool of 600 or even 6,000 citizens, called on occasionally. Each citizen would be allocated specific tasks that interest them and concentrate on a particular part of governmental activity and then, when that area's discussed, they would meet as part of the Assembly.

The citizens’ chamber could also lead the way in developing a digital democracy. Through online surveys and other mechanisms, a wider range of public participation would be possible, perhaps providing material for the citizens’ chamber to deliberate and develop in more detail. Such work would need to be transparent and the main outcomes evidence based and properly recorded. Draft laws, or ideas for laws, could then be fed into the National Assembly, which would become, in a very modern guise, a bicameral institution. Forget the House of Lords; we could do something really marvellous with citizens as our members. There are, of course, other models for citizens’ assemblies, but what is clear is the need for this wide engagement, if we are to forge a new democratic bond between citizen and politician.

Democracy also needs to go deep and draw on the strength that we have in the roots of communities. Again, the digital revolution offers opportunities for local networks of participation, discussion and decision making. Town and community councils are well placed to develop their role as the voice of the community. Larger town councils might consider establishing the office of an elected mayor. The councils themselves could be made up of directly elected councillors and randomly selected citizens, serving a term as part of their public service obligation. Invigorating the most local level of democracy would also help to refresh municipal government in general. Other public agencies, like NHS trusts, could also use this source of public participation.

Deputy Presiding Officer, representational democracy thrived on the excitement of electing society’s leaders; it was an incredible transformation away from aristocratic Government in the nineteenth century, but it also made the people sovereign only for a day and limited the opportunities for deeper participation. A desire to take back control could indicate that citizens are ready to carry greater responsibility for decision making.

This does not mean that most people want to become part-time politicians, but it does mean that we can explore the concept of citizen service on the basis that jury service underpins our legal system. We should not exaggerate the time commitment involved in service. It would range from full-time for a short time—a citizens’ jury on the development of a local amenity, for instance—to part-time for a longer time—a day a month for two years or so in the citizens’ assembly, perhaps.

We will only live in a participatory democracy when citizen engagement focuses on decision making as much as the gathering of public opinion through traditional consultation processes. In Wales, we have an opportunity to lead the way. We enjoy the benefits of both a new and a small democracy. If we are able to innovate, then the power of the parliamentary tradition that we have inherited could be magnified by the force of active citizenship. Alongside the Welsh Government’s legislative programme, we could see published a gwerin’s programme to be discussed in the citizens’ chamber of the National Assembly.

Deputy Presiding Officer, democracy is not sick and feeble, but it does need rejuvenating. Today, the greatest act of political leadership would be to enhance the energy of citizenship. This is the purpose of my Bill.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you very much for introducing these ideas. I think there's a lot of merit to them. Would you agree that the health service, above all, does need to have much better citizen participation? Just because the health service is free at the point of need doesn't mean that we should be getting people going to the doctor because they've got a sore throat. We really do need to get people to choose well, like the Government campaign says. We need people to take some responsibility for their own health. So, I think prudent healthcare summarises that and I think, without prudent healthcare, we will find, increasingly, that the health service cannot meet the more complex needs of citizens who have serious illnesses. So, I think this is something that it would be useful to pursue.

But I also wanted to just ask you whether you think that we also need to do something to reverse the suppression of voter participation that's gone on over the last few years. The way in which it's been made more difficult for people to register to vote means that there are many thousands—indeed, across the country in the UK, many millions of people—who are not registered to vote. Either because of literacy issues or other reasons, they are unable to grasp this simple process. Would you therefore consider including in your Bill making it an obligation on public services that, when they are transacting business with the citizen, whether it's on council tax, housing benefit, child benefit, DVLA, or changing a licence, automatically that public service would be able to register them to vote? This isn't an obligation to vote, but this is enabling them to register to vote. So, I would be interested to know whether you think that would be part of your Bill.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I'd just like to record my support for these legislative proposals. The concept of a national citizens' service has long been Welsh Conservative policy, but, of course, it's one that transcends all party divides and there are, as David said, different models to consider here. But I particularly welcome this, as any contribution to ideas for a participatory democracy that offer an alternative to referenda are certainly something to be welcomed.

I support this because, essentially, at the heart of this, we're talking about an acknowledgement and even a celebration of both the individual and the collective, and if I could speak to my socialist colleagues here, that sense of community, a call on untapped social capital to contribute to social cohesion, enhance public services in the way that David has mentioned, and absolutely to build that confident, proactive and politically engaged citizenry.

I remember one of my early disappointments when I became an Assembly Member was in a question to the First Minister, when I put to him the question whether he'd be prepared to consider some sort of national citizen service at that point, and he said that Wales didn't need one, because it was already promoting volunteering to younger people. I think he was talking, at that time, about GwirVol, which no longer exists, unfortunately, and which did reach some young people, and was, I've no doubt, valuable in terms of them and their development as individuals, but it didn't really offer much at a strategic level with a clear, population-level societal purpose.

With colleagues, I visited Israel a few months ago, and there, of course, military national service is compulsory for non-Arab citizens and some other exempt categories, lasting somewhere between two and three years. Clearly, I'm not advocating any kind of replication of that, but I was very struck by some of the lasting effects of that experience on virtually every Jewish Israeli person that we spoke to, regardless of how long ago they had had that experience. The first was the sense of unity and responsibility for each other, regardless of socioeconomic background. Of course, I will accept that the ever-present security threat there is bound to concentrate minds to a certain extent, but even so, it was clear that we were meeting people who had learnt to be confident about making decisions, acting upon those decisions, and trusting each other to do the same—and not just for themselves, but in a sense of common cause. Mistakes were considered inevitable, as was the dusting down and starting again when people did make mistakes.

The second thing that struck me was how this translated into their attitude towards the economy and its growth: people of all ages and backgrounds being bold, very can-do, taking calculated risks, not always succeeding but being very comfortable in co-operating with each other, even in a competitive environment. And some told us that it was their experience of service alongside others that had given them this approach to progress—a progress that they saw as providing benefits extending beyond themselves. [Interruption.]

Oh, is it? It's only three minutes I've got, is it? Oh, I'm really sorry about that.

Effectively, all I wanted to say is that if we're serious about co-production and, particularly, the imperative embodied in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, then we really have to do something now to encourage the population at large to be confident enough to be participants in that co-productive Wales.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks to David Melding for today's Member's legislative proposal. I'm intrigued by these ideas of increasing citizen participation. Of course, the aim is laudable, but I'm not sure how easily it will be achieved in practical terms. In short, I'm not certain that this scheme, innovative though it is, is actually a workable one.

The difference between us in this Chamber and the general public is that we are, believe it or not, professional politicians. I know that seems far-fetched at times, when we're all shouting across the Chamber at one another, but we are actually the professionals. That is, we are paid to be here most weeks. We sit on committees, we listen to evidence, we have paid staff to help us to research things. Now, that isn't to say that we have any innate ability to do politics any better than the general public, but we do this job week in, week out, within a structure that does allow us a certain amount of expertise—I stress, 'a certain amount'.

The problem with engaging the general public with the democratic process is that many people are not that interested in politics. Others are interested in politics up to a point, but only in relatively small doses. The idea of actually participating in organised debates, in committee scrutiny and so on, may not be that attractive, even to the semi-engaged section of the electorate who actually follow politics a little bit. Of course, we can give it a go, these are interesting ideas, but I do bridle a bit at the element of compulsion, at the idea of people being called up for citizen service, and I wonder if that prospect might turn many, even of the semi-engaged people, completely against politics.

Perhaps we need to consult some available statistics to note the enthusiasm of the Welsh public for the Assembly. Turnout in Assembly elections: about 45 per cent. That is a statistic that is widely known and readily accessible. There are other figures we could examine. For instance, what are the average viewing figures for BBC Wales's coverage of FMQs? What are the relevant figures for Senedd.tv in its broadcasts of Chamber business and Assembly committees? I think these broadcasts are a valuable public service, but I fear the take-up among the public of Wales is probably fairly low. When I look up at the gallery here and in the committee rooms, most of the time they're almost empty.

Some people do get engaged from time to time, usually when their local areas are perceived to be under some kind of threat. At these moments, campaigns begin and petitions get under way, and this is all good stuff; we are all for local campaigns in UKIP. Indeed, for some time our policy has been to allow legally binding local referenda on major planning issues affecting a particular area. This is where political engagement may effectively be nurtured, in demonstrating that legislators will take account of the wishes of the local residents. But the idea of the citizenry forming a separate Chamber in an enlarged Assembly—I must confess, I find the notion a little far-fetched and I fear that, far from enthusing more people, it may actually backfire and turn more people against politics.

So, although I think these are very interesting ideas, I think we have to be very careful in how we go forward in trying to apply them in a practical way. So, I think we need to tread carefully here.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I now call the leader of the house, Julie James?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Welsh Government is strongly in favour of increasing citizen participation in policy making in Wales, and we certainly share the aspiration as set out by David Melding in his really quite exciting proposal to close the gap between politicians and the public, both to engage the people of Wales in decisions that affect them and to keep us rooted in the communities that we serve. I'm not sure I quite share the pessimism he expressed about some of the aspects of that, but nevertheless I understand the sentiment.

The proposal that David Melding has made for citizen service, including a second Chamber for this Assembly, would certainly be an interesting approach to this, and I'm sure he's aware that there are a number of models of citizen service, including models of engagement for all young people, both as a learning and as a work experience tool in performing a wide range of socially useful tasks. I believe the Institute of Welsh Affairs set out one such model a few years back, which I was certainly very interested in pursuing in my previous role.

Also, there are a number of examples of citizens' assemblies, mainly set up by parliaments around the world: for instance, in the Republic of Ireland, Canada, the Netherlands and Poland. They've all deliberated on very specific issues rather than acting as second chambers of legislatures in general. A citizen's assembly or second chamber of this legislature is of course a matter for the Assembly Commission and not the Welsh Government. But David Melding has certainly set out a lot of food for thought, especially for me, on the digital possibilities of some of those aspects of it.

But I think that I would like to suggest that, if there was interest amongst Members in establishing such a body, there would be a number of issues to consider. Some of those issues were mentioned already, but such as would we need to ensure that participants would be representative of the wider public. If people are voluntarily coming forward, that's unlikely to be the case; they'd be self-selecting. Would we be looking for experts in particular fields? Conversely, would it be acceptable to make participation at some level compulsory? How would we enforce that? Indeed, how would we pay for it, as a very large number of people, particularly self-employed people or people running small businesses, already have severe disadvantages if they're called for jury service? Indeed, David Melding, I know, is aware of some of the difficulties of getting juries together for long, complex fraud trials, and so on, and how that's had to adapt over time.

And what issues would they be invited to consider? Who would decide what issues they were invited to consider, including whether to focus on a few topics or, indeed, to look in a bicameral way at decisions, for example on legislation, that the house is making, in the way that the House of Lords does, for example? Would people require training for their role? Would they require ongoing support for their deliberations? How would the deliberations feed back into the Assembly's own deliberations? Would their work relate to the work of the Welsh youth parliament, for example? And a number of other issues—all of which, of course, are completely surmountable but would need to be thought through and costed and so on.

In terms of policy, the Welsh Government is committed to continuing to develop its own methods for engaging people in the decisions that affect them. Again, as David Melding and Suzy Davies and a number of other people pointed out, there are a huge number of ways to involve people in decisions. No one size fits all, and new approaches are always being constantly developed. I, for example, have been privileged to be a part of the Valleys taskforce action and delivery plan group, based on the extensive feedback from people living and working in the south Wales Valleys, and the 2018-19 budget includes a participatory budget pilot for that group. It's been extremely interesting to see what the engagement has been across those communities—what has worked, what hasn't worked, what has fired people up and what has perhaps not fired them up. It has to be said that it hasn't always been the things that we anticipated would do so. Some of the responses back have been very uplifting, and some have been deeply not uplifting, but all have been unique and interesting in a way that I hadn't entirely anticipated personally.

We're very conscious of the need to develop better ways of involving people in our representative democracy—absolutely. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 requires us to take account of the involvement of citizens in the development and delivery of our objectives as part of the sustainable development principle, and provides a comprehensive framework covering public bodies across Wales, providing for regular reporting and audit. I wonder whether such a system might be put in place if we were to look at participation in democracy.

We are very keen on increasing citizen participation in the policy-making part of what we do here in this legislature. We welcome ideas on how best to promote increased participation and constructive scrutiny of the progress we make in doing so. I think the Assembly Commission will have a lot of food for thought in the Member's legislative proposal. Diolch.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I now call David Melding to reply to the debate?

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank everyone for taking part and raising such thoughtful questions and really getting involved in this debate? Can I start with Jenny? You actually talked about the NHS requiring prudent healthcare and patients also being responsible enough to look after themselves as far as possible. And, do you know, I think that's a general model for what we need to do with democracy. Democracy cannot flourish if there isn't active citizen participation. I suppose what I'm saying is there's not enough at the moment for it fully to flourish in the twenty-first century. It's not on its knees, but we need, really, to have the sort of ambition that our ancestors had when they were making these extraordinary changes in the nineteenth century.

The difficulty on voter registration does concern me deeply. I think we need to have the highest standards of scrutiny of any system for registration, and, if there are problems with the current arrangements, I think they need to be investigated fully. We need a system that is secure, but, as soon as we can establish that a person is a citizen and has a right to vote, there should be the minimum fuss then about registering them, and there should be many methods to do that. And voting over the weekend and at local supermarkets—all these things may be possible.

Suzy said that much of what I talked about would be an alternative to referendums. I don't ban referendums altogether from this model, but I do agree that what we want is to get people to deliberate. What are the challenges? How do you trade them and prioritise? This is very important. I think, in terms of citizen service, we are probably going to see the need for a radical reform, perhaps even something along the lines of universal income, with more work-sharing also in the future. One thing we could do in that model is to emphasise the obligation we all have for citizen service. That might be a way of opening up some of these issues.

Gareth talked about the workability. Well, you know, it is used in the legal system. It's absolutely at the heart. Clearly, people would have to be supported. Our own staff would be involved in that, the research facilities, for instance, the clerking teams—it would be part of the model. Would people be interested? Well, I think, if you look around the world where it's succeeded, and the Minister made reference to this, in Iceland, in Ireland, it's been transformative in getting to discuss some of the most basic questions. And look at the new democracies that have used this in a whole host of methods, including truth commissions—they've really got to the heart of some of these things by using a citizen-based approach.

So, I'm very optimistic. The Minister said she's open to these ideas and I think that was reflected in her contribution. We need to close the gap between citizens and politicians. There are still essential things that institutions need to do and full-time politicians need to do, but we can enhance the digital possibilities and see a real chance for a new form of democracy, participative democracy, that is conducted on a much fuller and equal basis. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. The question is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, that motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. Thank you.

7. Debate on the 'Port Talbot Community Against the Super Prison' Petition

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 7, which is a debate on the 'Port Talbot Community against the Super Prison' petition, and I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion—David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd. Can I say that I'm extremely pleased to open this debate on behalf of the Petitions Committee? This the second debate that has been held since the Petitions Committee agreed to consider referring any petition that gathers more than 5,000 signatures for a debate in the Plenary. The petitioners, led by Victoria Griffiths, are seeking to oppose the development of a new, so-called superprison on land owned by the Welsh Government in Baglan, Port Talbot.

I would like to begin by thanking the petitioners for bringing this petition forward and to congratulate them on running a passionate and eye-catching campaign. I remember it was certainly a vibrant occasion when the petitioners came to the Senedd to hand the petition over to the committee back in October. I know that the petitioners have also worked closely with their local Assembly Members on this issue, and I'm sure that a number of Members will be seeking to contribute during the debate this afternoon.

The petition in front of us collected 8,791 signatures using a combination of the Assembly's website and a local paper petition. This and the turnout at the Senedd indicate that there is a significant degree of local opposition to the possibility of a prison in Port Talbot, and I'm sure that this is not news to anyone here today. The petitioners have told the committee that they have a number of concerns with the Ministry of Justice's proposal to build a prison on the site, and, before I outline these, it is perhaps worth covering a bit of background about the proposals and their current status.

In March 2017, the UK Government announced that four potential sites for new prisons in England and Wales had been identified by the Ministry of Justice. We understand that, prior to this, the Welsh Government had provided a list of 20 possible sites in Wales to the Ministry of Justice. The Ministry of Justice has stated that it undertook a comprehensive evaluation of the 20 sites, and that Port Talbot was selected as the best potential site for a new category C prison build in Wales. As a result, Port Talbot was the only site in Wales chosen to proceed to a planning application. In the same announcement in March 2017, the then Secretary of State for Justice indicated that considerations over value for money and affordability would be part of the Ministry of Justice's final decision over whether to proceed with a new prison on the site.

In answers given at Westminster on this subject in September, the prisons Minister indicated that Port Talbot was chosen for a number of reasons. These include the capacity of local infrastructure to support the prison and the potential for benefits to the local community. It is clear from the petition that large parts of the community dispute both of these statements. Media reports have stated that the proposed category C prison would have a capacity of 1,600 prisoners when it is fully operational, though I understand that this has not been confirmed by the Ministry of Justice. The UK Government has also stated that there are currently insufficient prison places available and, specifically, that there are not enough category C prison places in south Wales.

In their response to the committee's initial correspondence about the petition, the Welsh Government confirmed that they received an approach from the Ministry of Justice and provided a list of 20 possible sites in response. The Government also reiterated that the decision over whether to proceed is a matter for the Ministry of Justice and that any planning applications would be considered locally by Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council. However, as I previously stated, the petition calls on the Welsh Government—which owns the land involved—not to sell to the Ministry of Justice for the purposes of development. During a previous discussion on this subject in Plenary in September, the then Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children stated that no agreement has been made with the UK Government regarding the sale of the land, and no discussions over its value have taken place.

Given that justice is not a devolved subject area, and that a decision whether or not to proceed with the development of a prison will be taken by the UK Government, it is the issue of the sale of the land that the Petitions Committee will primarily be considering going forward. However, we have written to the prisons Minister to make him aware of this petition and the debate today. I am sure that local Members will wish to outline the views of the local community in more detail during their contributions, so I will limit my further comments to the concerns raised directly with the Petitions Committee.

The petitioners have outlined a number of concerns, most of which relate to the capacity of Port Talbot and the surrounding areas to accommodate a prison. These include the availability of health services and the capacity of local roads both during the construction of the prison and once it is operational. The petitioners have also questioned the impact it could have on local employment levels and the prospects for local people looking for jobs. This is due to the potential for the prison to operate as a rehabilitation centre, with inmates potentially allowed limited day release for training placements for work experience, which the petitioners fear will take opportunities away from local people. They have also raised concerns over local housing availability, which could be put under increased pressure if inmates choose to stay in the area following their release. Finally, the petitioners have highlighted that the land identified is an enterprise zone and is, apparently, subject to a covenant on its use. Schedules to this covenant have been quoted that state that the land should be used for the purpose of an industrial park and not for other purposes.

Due to a recognition that it was important to proceed with this debate in a timely manner, the committee has not had time to investigate any of these concerns or claims in detail at this stage. We will return to consider the petition again at a future committee meeting. In doing so, I hope we will be able to also consider the reaction of the petitioners to the points raised today and the answers provided. As a result, the committee is presenting this petition to the Assembly without drawing conclusions or making recommendations in any particular direction at this stage. However, we feel that this is an important debate to have, and we hope that it will provide everyone who signed the petition with further information and answers to the concerns that they hold.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Before I move on to the substance of this discussion, I just wanted to express huge praise for the campaign group from my constituency, which is totally community led, for the work they have done to date to bring this petition to the Chamber. I know their dedication will continue beyond today to make sure that Port Talbot has a good way forward, and some of the members are in the gallery this afternoon.

The petition being discussed this afternoon calls on the Welsh Government to reject the Ministry of Justice's proposals to release the land for the development of the superprison. David Rowlands, as Chair of the Petitions Committee, highlighted that as the main focus, but can I also highlight that the public services that are being impacted upon are also devolved to the Welsh Government, so there's actually a second issue that you may want to consider?

Many of the arguments that will be raised this afternoon were raised during the Plaid Cymru debate on 20 September, and I'm not going to apologise for repeating any of those, as they are core to the reasons for rejecting this proposal. However, since that date, further evidence has been uncovered that supports our calls in this petition. There are two aspects that need to be addressed in this debate: (1) the appropriateness of the site for a superprison, and (2) the penal policy of the UK Government and the role the Welsh Government plays in its delivery.

With regard to the first point, there are numerous reasons as to why this site is inappropriate. First, it's on a C1 flood zone, as has already been mentioned, which was a C2 flood zone when the site was identified by the Welsh Government and given to the MOJ as one on the list, even though the criteria from the MOJ actually said, for suitable sites, 'Good ground conditions which do not have a high possibility of flooding'. Now, Cabinet Secretary, I did ask about this before, and I asked why it was included in the criteria. I was given the answer, 'It's not for the Welsh Government to determine that—it's for the developers'. I'm sorry, but that's simply abdicating the responsibility of the Welsh Government. The site should never have been included in any list the Welsh Government gave, and even now should be withdrawn on that basis, particularly as the conditions on the site haven't changed.

Secondly, the site is in the enterprise zone—Port Talbot Waterfront enterprise zone—as has already been mentioned. That should be used for economic growth of existing businesses and attraction of inward investment that would bring further economic benefits to the community. I know the claims of the MOJ are that a prison will deliver economic benefits, but research has shown that claims that the development of a superprison will win economic benefits—including the creation of jobs—fail to take account of the broader social costs of incarcerating a large number of inmates, and that simple job numbers are not an accurate measure of economic growth.

Also, the identified employment it would create does not necessarily benefit the local community immediately around the area—undeniably true in this case, because it's known that Swansea and Cardiff are up for closing. If they close, the direct employment of those will be transferred to this new site and all the supply-chain employment that feeds in. That is reality; those are the views of the UK Government about Victorian prisons. Additionally, the research shows that there can be economic downturns on investment for communities that become known as prison towns. We are experiencing that, with one business preparing to leave the town if it is given the go-ahead. So, the claim that the prison will be a vehicle for economic growth in Port Talbot is totally false.

Thirdly, there's the issue of the covenant on the land, and another criteria specified by the MOJ when they asked for the sites was that it should not have a covenant. Others may have more time to explore this matter, but I'm sure you're aware that we've already explored it with the Counsel General and the First Minister and I can assure you that will not go away.

I wish to spend a little bit more time now on the second consideration, because we must give it to any new superprison proposal—the ability of the penal policy to reduce reoffending, improve rehabilitation, and the impact upon the services delivered by the Welsh Government to support that ambition. Again, numerous reports and research show that the creation of a superprison fails to deliver on that ambition. In fact, they do the opposite. Cabinet Secretary, building crime-free lives is about a more equal society. It's about poverty, healthcare, housing and education. It's about prisons that seek to build long-lasting change and not a prison industrial complex, which assumes that profound change will come through stuffing a building to capacity with humans, like they are bottles of wine that will mature over time when they're shut away in the cold and the dark. Let's not support an agenda that is financially driven by the MOJ. Let's rather deliver one that will address the needs of society.

Cabinet Secretary, considering the role the Welsh Government has in delivering services to prisoners, is it now time for penal policy to be devolved to Wales? Perhaps you should be pushing that agenda forward. I agree with the comments that were made in the Plaid Cymru debate—I've turned around, I've come around to your way of thinking—that perhaps penal policy should now be devolved. But if it was, would the Welsh Government consider superprisons a good model, let alone build one in the heart of a community on such flimsy evidence? I very much hope not.

Llywydd, I'll conclude with the following because I see my time is up—I've got a lot more to say but I see my time is up. This afternoon, we'll be asked to vote to note the petition, but I actually want more than that. I want the Welsh Government to listen to the people who signed the petition and act on their behalf. I said in September that there is clearly no justice coming to Port Talbot from the Ministry of Justice, and I called on Welsh Government to deliver that by setting our economy as the priority and not the MOJ's decision to save money. Cabinet Secretary, it's quite simple: when the MOJ comes asking for that land to be developed on, just say 'no'. Listen to the petitioners: Port Talbot can do better and deserves much more.