Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 25 April 2018

348 contributions from 46 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and the first question is from Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

1. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary held regarding plans for a new site for Ysgol Dewi Sant in Llanelli? OAQ52045

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Diolch yn fawr, Simon. I have had no direct discussions. It is local authorities, in this case Carmarthenshire County Council, who identify the preferred sites for their school building projects.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary for that initial response. She will be aware, however, that three Estyn reports have now said that the current condition of the school is having an effect on learning in that school, and that the pupils of ysgol Dewi Sant deserve the best possible education, and that’s the purpose of the twenty-first century schools programme that her department is responsible for. Today, as it happens, the planning application was formally submitted for the new school. There have been some delays because there have been complaints that the school will replace what they call a greenfield site. It’s important to underline that the planning application includes public access to the school playing fields and therefore retains a community element, as everyone, I’m sure, would welcome. If delays arising from this local disagreement were to hold up the project, would the Government be in a position to ensure that the capital funding would still be available for this school, given that the pupils, who should be our focus in this context, deserve a new school, and deserve a school of the quality that she and her programme put forward?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Simon. You'll be aware that the Welsh Government considered the outline business case for the project in April 2017 and that I gave my approval to the local authority to move forward with the business case. I am aware of the delays, but, because of the rules around planning applications, it would not be right for me or, indeed, any other Welsh Minister to comment on those plans. I am pleased that there is community access—that's an important part of all the projects that come forward. Indeed, it's one of the core elements of the twenty-first century schools programme that we provide not only fantastic educational facilities, but that those facilities are available for wider public use. The allocations to Carmarthenshire stand at many, many millions of pounds, addressing many schools throughout that area, and my officials will be keeping in close contact with Carmarthenshire about the ability to deliver on those plans and, indeed, their applications for investment under band B of the programme.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

I strongly support the call for the money to still be available to build a new school. There's no doubt that the pupils of ysgol Dewi Sant desperately need a new school, but I'm afraid that Carmarthenshire County Council have let them down badly in the way they've gone through a process. If you read the business case sent in to the Welsh Government, it's a masterclass in retrospective rationality. It's quite clear that council officials have decided this would be an easy site to build on and worked backward from that assumption. This is green land in a deprived part of Llanelli, and there are alternative sites available, most notably the Heol Goffa site, which is now going to be vacated, with a new school being built in Delta Lakes for the special school. So, I will be asking the planning Minister to call in this application if the village green application is not successful, because this is not the right place to build a school. But a new school is essential, and I hope the Welsh Government gives clear assurances that funding will be available.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Lee, I can confirm that all education department approvals for business cases that are submitted by local education authorities, across Wales, are not to prejudice any processes—statutory processes—that are needed. Schools in Carmarthenshire will have seen investment of £87 million in the band A programme, and a further £130 million will be invested as a result of the band B programme. And, as I said in my answer to Simon Thomas, my officials keep in very close touch with all local authorities to ensure that their programmes are delivered in the best possible way for the benefits of the children who attend those schools.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

2. What is the Welsh Government doing to support adult community learning? OAQ52029

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Mohammad. Our adult learning in Wales policy statement was published in July and set out our priorities for adult learning. I will shortly be consulting on proposals to restructure the delivery and funding of adult learning, with the aim of providing a sustainable and secure future for this important provision.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much for the reply, Minister. Community learning has a significant impact in helping people gain the skills needed to achieve sustainable employment in the future. However, Welsh Government figures show that the number of community learners in Wales has fallen by more than half in the last five years. Arad research has described the sector has described the sector as being under severe pressure, and they state that,

'it is essential that there is sufficient support for adult community learning to ensure high quality delivery across Wales that is consistent and accessible.'

Will the Cabinet Secretary commit to properly funding community learning for the benefit of our communities and social care in Wales please?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

There's no doubt that in terms of what we'd like to do, we'd like to have put a lot more money into adult community learning, but that's been really difficult when we've seen a £1.4 billion cut from the UK Tory Government. So, that's been the problem for us. But let me be clear that, in deciding then what our priorities should be, we have concentrated on the importance of training people up for employment. We've concentrated on basic skills in particular, on core skills to encourage people to learn English, for those who have it as a second language, and really making sure that we have those essential skills that allow people to access the workplace.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, I wanted to ask you about individual learning accounts. What are your plans in terms of the launch of pilots, and will you ensure, and how will you ensure, that the lessons to be learnt from previous versions of the ILAs properly inform the new version?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. I think this is quite an exciting opportunity for us, and one of the first things I did when I was appointed as Minister was to go and listen to what a lot of the think tanks had to say. And this was an area where they said, 'Actually, there's a real opportunity.' Now, it's true in the past that the individual learning accounts had a bad name. In Wales, there wasn't a problem, but there was a degree of problems in England in relation to money exchanging. Now, I think we're in a different place because we now have the opportunity to do things digitally, so money won't change hands. We have now gathered, last week, a group of people who are experts in this field to shape what that pilot should look like, to look at what the pitfalls might be. So, progress is being made, and I would hope that we would be able to launch something in about September.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

The reality is, of course, that some of these education services are moving further and further away from communities across Wales. You will be aware, for example, that the college in Denbigh is now going to close in the summer. I’ve spoken to some of the students and they are concerned that they won’t be able to juggle their studies and the part-time work that they have because they will have to travel further to access that education in Rhos-on-Sea or in Rhyl. So, may I ask what the Government is doing to ensure that these services will remain in our communities and that post-16 education is accessible to all?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I do understand that there’s been quite a lot of response to what happened in Denbigh. What is important, I think, is that we respect the independence of the colleges—they make the decisions. But, of course, we have to ensure that we enable people in every community to have access now to further education. So, we will have to look, I think, at ensuring that we find ways of ensuring that people from those communities can get to those centres where the teaching exists. Of course, cuts have had an impact on the sector, but what’s important is that we have the experts to teach people in the best way possible.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, will you tell us when you'll be in a position to publish the new school organisation code?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Darren. My intention is to publish the code before the summer recess. Subject to approval by this National Assembly for Wales, I would expect the new code to be in operation for the new academic year.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm very pleased to hear that, Cabinet Secretary, because, as you will know, I share your aspiration to make sure that the code is balanced and that it doesn't disfavour or do a disservice to rural schools in particular, many of which, of course, as you will appreciate, are small, Welsh-medium schools. Given that concerns have been raised by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg and many others about the fact that some local authorities appear to be pressing forward with school reorganisation in the interim, because there is no change in the code at present, what is your message to those local authorities who might be attempting to get one under the barrier, as it were, before the door closes in terms of the changes in the school reorganisation code?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Darren. All 22 local authorities have had the opportunity to respond to the consultation. It is fair to say that some have responded more positively than others regarding my proposal to establish a list of rural schools and to ensure that there is a presumption against closure, as a starting point for local authorities. What I would say to local authorities that are considering this matter at the moment is that I have been very clear about my direction of travel and my policy intention, and I would urge them to take the spirit of that into consideration between now and any formal publication of the new organisation code.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

They are very warm words, and I'm sure that the spirit of the code is something that responsible local authorities will, of course, adopt, but the reality is that we have local authorities in Wales—Ynys Môn, Denbighshire and others—that are progressing with school closures in rural communities, and by and large Welsh-medium schools, as a result of the code not being sufficient at present. Can you give absolute assurances, Minister, that you will look carefully at the impact of your changes and make sure that they are measured against the proposals in your new code and not the provisions in the old code, which you said you'd sort out a long time ago?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Darren, whilst I recognise that the new code cannot be applied retrospectively, as I have said quite clearly, my expectation is that local authorities should be working with the grain of the new code. They are well aware of my intentions and my policy intentions. Any application that is submitted by a local authority, under either the existing code or the future code, is looked at extremely, extremely carefully because I recognise that, for many of those involved in that process, they need the code there to ensure that any consultation and any proposals are tested to the very highest of standards. As I said, I expect the code to be published this term. Subject to the approval of this Assembly, that code will be available for implementation from the new academic year in September.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. In 2016, there were two reports about school closures. One said that, in the previous 10 years, there'd been 157 school closures across Wales—three out of five of those closures being rural schools. The other said that there were a further 50 schools earmarked for closure. At the same time, local authorities are trying to encourage families to move into villages, and yet some schools in those villages are in danger of being closed or are already closed. What more can you do to reassure parents in Wales that their local school will not be closed in the near future?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I would refer you to the answer that I just gave Darren Millar. I have made it absolutely clear that my intention is to revise the current school organisation code to create a list of named rural schools and to establish a presumption against closure of those schools. Importantly, as well, with regard to rural education, we cannot just rest on our laurels by keeping institutions open. Those institutions need to provide rural children with a first-class educational opportunity. Buildings alone are not enough; it is the quality that goes on in those buildings that is absolutely crucial to me and that's why we've introduced a small schools grant to be able to support local authorities to improve standards in small, rural schools that have particular challenges when it comes to delivering the curriculum.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. My question wasn't really specifically about rural schools. I possibly fogged the issue a little bit by mentioning rural schools. My question was actually about local schools, as in schools that children can walk to every day. Children who travel to school by car are exposed to an increase in pollution of 40 per cent for that journey, compared with those who walk. Increased school runs also lead to increased pollution generally and in the vicinity of the schools. Do you agree with me that allowing school closures to go ahead is at odds with that, necessitating children to stop walking to school and be put in their parents' car or somebody else's car to be driven to school? It's at odds with the Welsh Government's claims to be serious about fighting pollution, as an increasing number of children don't live within walking distance of their nearest school.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I would encourage all parents everywhere, if they do indeed live within walking distance of their schools, to ensure that their children use active travel measures to attend local schools. Welsh Government supports that by providing a safe routes to schools grant—it's not my grant, it is my Cabinet Secretary colleague who has resources for that—which enables—. I know in my own constituency, for instance, in Presteigne, we have been able to put in new pavements and new crossings to encourage parents to do just that, to actually walk their children to school. Of course, in many rural areas, that is simply an impossibility. My own children attend a school some 25 miles away from home and I think even I would be asking too much of them if I expected them to walk. But, where it is possible, I would encourage parents and local authorities to work together to create an environment where people make that choice to actively travel to their school, whether that be on foot or on bike.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Well, do you not—? You've just given me a lecture about walking to school and safe routes to school, but you didn't actually answer the question, because I wasn't talking about children who can walk or travel in some way under their own steam, taking exercise to school. I was talking about children who have to be put into vehicular transport to be taken to school. Don't you think it's a contradiction that on the one hand you're forcing parents to put their children into a car to be driven to school and at the same time hectoring people to stay out of their cars and make fewer journeys?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The Member will be aware that rules regarding access to school transport are defined under the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. All children who live two miles from a primary school are entitled to local authority transport. All children attending secondary school who are three miles away from a secondary school are entitled to local authority transport.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. These are questions to the Minister for the Welsh language. Yesterday, my colleague the Member of Parliament for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Liz Saville Roberts, appeared on the Daily Politics programme defending our language following the latest attack on our language by Rod Liddle. Unfortunately, we live in an age where such attacks are seen increasingly acceptable. Attacking the Welsh language, and therefore attacking Welsh speakers—you, me and a number of us here—that, in reality, is a hate crime. But, the law does not reflect that. The European Union has been supportive of minority languages in the UK and the rest of the EU and has acted in order to safeguard the Welsh language and other minority languages. So, what is the Welsh Government going to do to safeguard Welsh speakers from terrible attacks following the period after we leave the European Union?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. I do think it’s important that we condemn any attack on people who speak any language that is a minority language. I do think that the kerfuffle that’s been created hasn’t helped things particularly. The question is: how should we respond? I do think it’s important that we underline how complex it would be to do something in legislative terms in this area. But, I also think it's important that we understand that it isn't acceptable for journalists or anyone else to insult our language in that way.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Complex or not, it’s clear that there’s a need to look in detail at the situation following losing some of the safeguards that we have at the moment through being a member of the European Union.

Ensuring rights to users to receive services through the medium of Welsh is the basis of the 2011 Act and the standards that have followed that. The standards in health are deficient—they don’t provide anything in terms of the need for a service though the medium of Welsh in our hospitals and they don’t, either, place standards on a number of primary care providers, who are the main link between users and the health service.

Despite these deficient standards, it’s important that the Government moves on with safeguarding these rights through medical contracts, as has been promised. Also, it’s important to introduce all of the other standards that have been on the Minister’s desk, and that of your predecessor, and his predecessor, for a number of years. We’re still waiting for the standards relating to the housing sector, water, postal services, buses, trains a railways, gas and electricity, and telecommunications. Is it a lack of political will that’s behind this? Are you dragging your feet intentionally on this?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

No. May I just say that it was important for me that I was in the House of Lords on Monday, protecting the charter of fundamental rights for languages? I do think and believe that that will be carried over and that that will provide some safeguards for us—legal safeguards that may otherwise have been removed.

In terms of your question on standards, you will be aware that the negotiations on what should happen in primary care are ongoing. Medical contracts—a great deal of work has been done on those already. One other thing we’re doing, of course, is that we’ve established a pilot with Working Welsh in order to ensure that we’re aware of what the problems are in terms of introducing these changes in primary care, just so that we can see how easy it would be, or otherwise, and how much support would be required in that area.

In terms of other standards, you will be aware that we intend to bring a new Welsh language Bill forward, and what’s important is that we do have some sort of assurance that what we have on the table will comply with any changes that we introduce. So, I don’t think it makes sense, at the moment, for us to bring new standards forward until we have far more clarity on what the future holds.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

That is my concern, of course. The feeling is that the new legislation, whenever that is going to see the light of day, is holding things back substantially at the moment, and is, therefore, holding back the rights of Welsh speakers.

I mentioned that perhaps it’s political goodwill that’s behind this. Perhaps it’s a lack of staffing that's the problem in introducing the standards. I’m still awaiting an answer to a written question that I sent in January asking how many staff have been located specifically in the Welsh language unit, namely the staff that are responsible for preparing the regulations regarding the standards. When I asked you this in committee, you said that there were a number of people working on them—'loads', you said. When will I have a proper answer? I think that there aren’t loads working on the standards specifically in your Government at all, and that you’re ashamed to announce that there is only one—two, perhaps, at the most—doing this important and vital work. You look surprised, but I haven’t had an answer, so I can only speculate.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Fair enough, but I think what’s important—. You have received a response from me. You'll be aware that staffing issues are issues for the Permanent Secretary, and I will push her to respond to you on your question. I do think it’s important that we now focus. If our target is to reach a million Welsh speakers, then I do think it’s crucially important that we emphasise the importance of promoting the language. And one thing that I do hope to see in future is that we change the emphasis; that we shift it from legislation to ensuring that people are able to use the Welsh language and that we promote the use of the Welsh language. That’s what’s important. You can’t force people to speak a language. We have to convince them that that’s the way forward, and that’s what I want to see happening in the future.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the teaching of modern foreign languages? OAQ52033

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, David. The teaching of languages is highly valued in our schools, which is why the 'Global futures' plan was published in 2015. Three years into this plan, there is continued commitment and ambition across the education system to improve the teaching and learning experiences of modern foreign languages for all of our learners.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer, but as you well know, there's been an incredible decline in the teaching of modern foreign languages in Wales, as was demonstrated by the British Council. It is sadly also the case in other parts of the UK, but here in Wales between 2002 and 2016 the number of pupils studying a foreign language to GCSE standard declined by 48 per cent, and at A-level declined by 44 per cent. So, the actual absolute numbers now are embarrassingly small, and various reasons have been attributed to this, including the predominance of compulsory subjects and even the operation of the Welsh baccalaureate. So, how is the 'Global futures' project going to deliver any substantive change? Because I understand the trend is still downwards.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, David. I would agree with you that there is still more work that we can do to ensure that more children take the opportunity of studying modern foreign languages at GCSE level. One of the projects that is proving particularly successful in achieving that aim, which the Welsh Government funds, is the student mentoring project run in conjunction with Cardiff, Swansea, Bangor and Aberystwyth universities, and this will run for a fourth year this year. The project offers targeted intervention to improve MFL take-up at GCSE in schools through improving pupil engagement with the university student mentor. In 2016-17, 50 per cent of all pupils mentored continued their learning into GCSE compared to a national average of under 20 per cent, so that project we know is making a real difference.

What I can say, though—and I would like to take this opportunity, Presiding Officer, to congratulate the high standards that are being achieved by those students that do go on to take this subject. Now, I don't particularly like making comparisons across the border, but it is fair to say that GCSE results last year showed that Wales had a higher A* performance and a higher A* to C performance in Spanish, French and German than students across the border in England. So, where students do take these subjects, they are excelling.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 4, Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Cabinet Secretary, you recently wrote to schools in Islwyn to inform them of the Welsh Government's—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to ask the question on the order paper.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

That's the question that I have in front of me.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to help disadvantaged learners in Islwyn? OAQ52048

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

That is indeed the question.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

I got there.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Through the regional pupil development grant, we continue to invest unprecedented amounts of funding—in this case, £187 million over the next two years—to support schools across Wales to improve outcomes for our disadvantaged learners. Islwyn are benefiting from the regional allocation to the Education Achievement Service of more than £19 million per annum over this period.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Okay. Thank you. The pupil deprivation grant for the youngest learners—pupils aged three to four—has increased from £600 to £700, building on last year's doubling of financial support from £300 to £600 per learner in the early years, a stark contrast to the UK Tory decimation of support for poorer learners. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline, then, what difference the continued investment in the pupil deprivation grant will have in Islwyn schools, and the impact the Welsh Government believes it will have on disadvantaged learners in Islwyn communities?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

It's now called the pupil development grant, because we want to focus on the primary purpose of this grant, and that is to develop the opportunities for some of our most disadvantaged learners. What we do know, Rhianon, is that by targeting investing in our early years, with our very youngest learners, we can address the effects of deprivation on their educational outcomes even more quickly. I have huge confidence in the pupil development grant. If you talk to teachers, which I'm sure you do in your own constituency, they are quite clear about the difference that this money is making. We're increasingly seeing a number of our primary schools that have pupils who are entitled to a free school meal—they're performing at a level on a par with those better-off counterparts, and, indeed, in some primary schools, we even see children on free school meals outperforming their better-off counterparts.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Parents of children disadvantaged by poverty in Islwyn will have heard with dismay of the Welsh Government's decision to scrap the school uniform grant for poor families. Last week, the First Minister failed to give assurances regarding funding and eligibility of your planned replacement scheme. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you confirm that there'll be no reduction in the amount of funding provided for school uniforms under your new scheme and that all year 7 pupils in receipt of free school meals will continue to be eligible for the school uniform grant also?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Oscar, for that question. I am very keen to address the impact of disadvantage on children's education in a variety of ways, and for some families, assistance with school uniform is really important. But as we heard yesterday, in a question to the First Minister from Julie Morgan, there are other ways in which more deprived communities cannot take advantage of the full range of opportunities that may be available to them, and that can have a direct impact on that learner's capabilities to progress. That's why I and officials are currently working on a replacement grant for what was previously called the school uniform grant. It will include access to support for school uniforms, but I'm also wanting that grant to be able to provide greater flexibility for parents, for instance, who may not have the financial ability to allow their child to go on a school trip or to allow their child to participate in extra-curricular activity, which could affect their outcomes. So, yes, grants for uniforms will continue, but I'm looking to expand that grant to cover a wider variety of opportunities that, potentially, pupils from deprived backgrounds can't participate in.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the role of education in combating problem gambling? OAQ52020

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Mick. Education is just one of the means to address problem gambling. One recommendation in the Chief Medical Officer for Wales’s report was to provide those responsible for the health and well-being of children and vulnerable people with further information on the potential harm that gambling can bring.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer. I wonder if you'd perhaps go a bit further. What we know, from the Gambling Commission, is that about 0.5 million pupils across England and Wales, between 11 and 15, are now gambling on a weekly basis. That would correlate to around 25,000 children in Wales between the ages of 11 and 15 gambling on a weekly basis, a number of those now being problem gamblers. In the light of the chief medical officer's report, I wonder if you will be meeting with the chief medical officer to actually develop, as part of the overall public health strategy, a strategy dealing with what is a growing gambling problem for the future amongst our children, who are working and living in an environment where, through things like sport, gambling is almost being normalised in our society and presents us, I think, with real challenges for the future.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I understand your concerns, Mick. You'll be aware that the leader of the house and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services recently agreed to write to the Advertising Standards Authority with regard to that specific point about the prevalence of gambling adverts. Gambling sponsorship is an issue because many, many children are getting to see those. I am very pleased to let you know that questions on gambling were included in health behaviour in school-aged children's research network survey for the 2017-2018 survey, so that we can get a better understanding from children themselves about the effect that gambling may have on them as individuals, and that gives us baseline data that we can really take action from.

I think it's really important that we use our opportunities via the personal and social education part of our existing curriculum to be able to explore the dangers of gambling with our children and young people, and you'll be aware, as we develop our new curriculum, that there are opportunities in the new health and well-being area of learning and experience for schools to address these issues but also via our numeracy AoLE, where I would expect schools to be talking about financial literacy and how to make positive choices about how you utilise your money.

Via our healthy schools network as well as our adverse childhood experiences hub we're also better equipping schools to deal with issues around problem gambling if they become aware of that within their school community. I believe that in the cross-Government approach, whether that be health and social care or planning, there are many things that we can do to address this agenda head-on.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I share the concerns that have been expressed by Mick Antoniw and agree with him wholeheartedly that we need to take more action in our schools to address problem gambling. One of the concerns that has been raised with me is that, in the Welsh baccalaureate, there is a task that has been assigned to some pupils in Wales that asks them to imagine what it's like to win the lottery and then to spend that money. Now, it seems to me to be wholly inappropriate in terms of encouraging people to imagine that sort of task and it's at odds with the public health messages that we want to send as a nation to our young people. So, what action are you going to take to work with the WJEC, Qualifications Wales and others to make sure that all of our examinations, all of our textbooks, have gambling eradicated from them in terms of promoting it in this way and that the only message they see about gambling is one that is negative?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Darren, for that. I would expect all examination questions and Welsh baccalaureate tasks to be written in an appropriate way. Can I be absolutely clear that what we're talking about here is problem gambling and recognising that as a health issue, an addiction issue, just in the way that there are other addictions? I think we need to be slightly careful when we equate playing the lottery with problem gambling. I think we need to be slightly careful about that, but I would expect all questions in all examination papers to be written in a way that is appropriate for children reading them and using those resources.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Further to those comments—and I agree with all the comments thus far—Mick Antoniw would know that a recent University of South Wales study showed that a quarter of gamblers do not consider themselves to be gamblers, and that applies to children as well. So, pushing further on this issue of education in schools, obviously my colleague Bethan Sayed previously has raised the principles of financial education, which would incorporate this sort of education, but really we need to be highlighting this strongly, as has been mentioned because of the insidious nature of the gambling industry inculcating itself into every form of life and trying to normalise the issue. It is not normal to be a gambler, and I'd value your support on the issue.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Dai, you're absolutely right: we need to look at these issues beyond simply the health and well-being AoLE. Financial education will be a key element within the new curriculum, offering robust provision to help learners develop their financial skills, including the management of their money. I was very fortunate recently to attend a pioneer school in your own region, Olchfa, a year 8 maths class, where they were indeed talking about the tax system and how you would manage your money and work out your tax liabilities. So, we already see on the ground lessons in this regard happening in our schools at the moment and, of course, as we move towards a statutory take-up of the curriculum, I would expect to see more of that going on. It was absolutely fantastic to see relatively young learners in their secondary education career having the ability to develop their numeracy skills but at the same time learning and understanding about how tax works and actually having a very moral debate about whether people should be taxed more or less.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the 21st Century Schools programme in Cardiff? OAQ52036

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Julie. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an up—. Oh, sorry, that's your bit. [Laughter.] I am the Cabinet Secretary. [Laughter.] For a minute, I forgot myself and I was back over there, Presiding Officer. I've just done a Rhianon Passmore. [Interruption.] You never know. You never know.

Julie, I am delighted to say—[Laughter.]—that band A of the twenty-first century schools and education programme will see an investment of over £164 million in schools in Cardiff over the five years ending in 2019—which might postdate when I'm going to end here. [Laughter.] A funding envelope of a further £284 million has been approved in principle for the band B programme, which will start in 2019.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I was very pleased to visit last week the new site for the schools of Gabalfa primary and Ysgol Glan Ceubal in my constituency, Cardiff North, for the topping out ceremony last week. This is one English-medium primary and one Welsh-medium primary, which are co-located, and the building's been designed in such a way that there are joint facilities for lunchtimes and playtimes. I wondered whether there were any other plans for schools in that sort of way throughout Wales, where the Welsh language school and the English language school are co-located on the same site.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I am sure that there are other examples where we have co-locations of facilities like that. What the twenty-first century schools programme is allowing us to do is find new and innovative ways of providing school places, whether that be in a shared location, whether we see the growing number of through schools, where children are educated on the same campus from the age of three right the way through, in some cases, to the age of 18. This unprecedented investment in school buildings, the largest since the 1960s, is giving us the opportunity to provide local authorities the options of a wide variety of ways of providing educational facilities. And one of the ways in which we judge cases that come in, as I said earlier to Simon Thomas, is also on community access to those facilities and, increasingly, as we work together across Government on the childcare offer, the ability to see whether we can combine education and childcare facilities in our new builds also.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, twenty-first century schools has offered the opportunity for local authorities to work with Government in redeveloping their school estate. You may or may not be familiar with the closure plans for a small rural school in the Vale of Glamorgan, Llancarfan school, and relocating to a new site in the village of Rhoose. One of the concerns—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

This is a question about Cardiff.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

South Wales Central area—twenty-first century schools. I thought Cardiff was part of South Wales Central. Sorry, Presiding Officer.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Vale of Glamorgan isn't.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

It is part of South Wales Central.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The question is about Cardiff.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I withdraw the question, then.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 7, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on school funding in Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council? OAQ52032

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Dawn. The gross schools expenditure in Merthyr last year was budgeted to be over £50 million. That's 3 per cent higher than in 2016-2017. Merthyr Tydfil delegated 87 per cent of the funding to schools, giving a delegated budget of over £43 million. That's a 4 per cent increase on the previous year, and I'm pleased to say that's the highest percentage increase that we saw in any local authority in Wales.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Indeed, and I know that the Welsh Government has a long-standing commitment to school funding, in spite of the UK Government's continued austerity programme, and this year's local government settlement, as you've already outlined, has reflected this. However, we also know that local authorities have successfully argued for education funding not to be ring-fenced, and I appreciate that much of that funding now is used for their school budgets. It is a matter entirely for them. Nevertheless, I was concerned to see that Merthyr Tydfil council, despite what you have said, has effectively cut their school budget, with schools being advised that they must make savings of some £400,000 in this financial year, with more to follow. Now, given that Merthyr Tydfil's education service was only brought out of special measures in 2016, can you assure me that you're closely monitoring the needs of schools in Merthyr Tydfil so that we do not allow that situation to slip backwards again?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Dawn. You are correct in saying that local authorities are responsible for school funding, and, indeed, that is set out in current Welsh law. You will also be aware that Estyn, the independent inspectorate, not only has a role in inspecting individual schools, but also has a role in inspecting the performance of individual local education authorities. They have trialled a new inspection framework, the first of which took place in Neath Port Talbot, and that is a very good way in which we can ensure the performance of local education authorities.

I am aware that for some authorities that have recently been in special measures, there is a need to keep a very close eye, and, of course, you'll be aware that one of the reasons why we work in partnership with the middle tier of the regional consortia is to ensure that there is high-quality support for school improvement in that area, rather than dissipated across all the local authorities.

But can I just take this opportunity? I understand that budgets are under pressure across Wales, not just in Merthyr Tydfil, but despite that, individual schools are not letting that hold-back on their ambition for their children. I recently had the opportunity to visit Afon Taf High School, and I was so impressed by the accelerated reading programme that they have introduced in that school, which is seeing the pupils' level of literacy jump immeasurably. And only last week, at the festival—the literacy festival that was held in Merthyr—I had an opportunity to speak to a number of the pupils who were attending the festival. It gave me huge hope to see young boys, who we know are particularly challenging when it comes to reading, speak so eloquently about their love of reading, the literature and the books that they're choosing at the moment, and their passion. And also, not only their passion for the individual book, but their understanding that by practising their reading, using this opportunity, that they were giving them the very best chance for themselves, not just in English but, actually, to access the entire curriculum. I commend schools like that that are not using tight financial times as an excuse not to introduce new and innovative approaches within their schools. They're to be commended.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, you said earlier that all children attending secondary school were entitled to free transport, but that surely doesn't apply to children attending sixth form. And in the case of Merthyr, is it really appropriate, if sixth-form provision is only going to take place for that age group at Merthyr college, for the council to be consulting on making all children of that age group pay for their transport to that one site?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Sorry. I apologise to Mr Reckless if I did not make myself clear in my answer to Michelle Brown. The learner travel Measure provides free school transport for compulsory-school-age children to the age of 16. For post-16 learners, individual local authorities are able to make provision if they see fit, and there is a mixed approach taken by local authorities across Wales.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the Welsh Government's position on school mergers and closures? OAQ52023

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Bethan. Responsibility for the planning of school places rests with local authorities. When proposing substantial changes to schools, local authorities and other proposers must comply with the oft-mentioned schools organisation code and must consider a range of factors—the prime consideration being the interests of learners.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that reply. I have raised this issue with you here before with regard to the proposal to close Cymer Afan Comprehensive School in my region, and I heard you earlier speak about the choice of active travel for learners. But in this instance, if Cymer Afan is closed and they are expected to travel nearly 10 miles to either Cimla or Margam, it may mean that they do not have that particular choice. Clearly, the future generations well-being assessments must take into account sustainable transport, so I'm trying to understand what conversations you've had with the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales to ensure that when there isn't that option of sustainable transport, what actually happens to those children and to their well-being.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I have had no conversations with the commissioner on that particular subject. The organisation code does require local authorities to carry out an impact assessment with regard to the well-being of learners. It also does give indicative timings of what would be regarded as a length of travel time that would not be suitable for children, but it really is for the individual local authority to ensure that, in carrying out its consultation with local people, it does that in line with the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013 and the code.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, I know that the future of small rural and semi-rural schools has been a huge issue in your constituency, and it's Councillor Brigitte Rowlands now, who represents the Mawr ward in Swansea, who's facing the same sort of challenges you've had yourself in the past, because there are two schools there that are earmarked for closure—shall I put it that way? I recognise the awkward position that the local authority is in, but I also recognise that a significant number, across Wales now, of our smaller schools have either already gone or are in the process of going, leaving a much smaller number of small schools that have survived the 90-pupil test, if you like. I heard your answers to earlier questions in this session, but do we need to be looking now at tweaks, shall we say, to the 90-pupil count guidance, in effect, to allow for the fact that, sometimes, it's not surplus places that are the priority argument in keeping schools open and there might be other considerations that are more important?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The primary consideration that all local authorities should have when planning their school places and thinking about school organisation is the interests of the learner and the quality of education that that institution is able to offer young people. You'll be aware of the answers I gave earlier. We are pushing forward with the designation of a list of rural schools and then a presumption against closure. Does that mean that there will never be any changes? I have to be honest and clear with people: no. But what it does mean is that the local authority will have to demonstrate that they have exhausted all other options and they have considered all other options before they take a decision to close a particularly small rural school.

Crucially, as I say, we also need to support the delivery of rural education. There are particular challenges about maintaining high standards, especially in small rural primary schools. So, for instance, you and I will both be aware of schools where, perhaps, the classroom teacher has pupils who are year 4, year 5 and year 6 within a single classroom, and that presents particular challenges in the differentiation of work, for instance. That's why we have made available a small rural schools grant that local authorities have been able to apply for to be able to look at innovative approaches to support the quality of education in our small rural schools, because keeping them open is one thing, but they have to offer excellent opportunities for our young people.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, in your responses to both Suzy Davies and Bethan Jenkins, you talked about the interests of the learner and the well-being of the learner, which I fully support. But, of course, the well-being of the learner also depends on the well-being of the communities the learner lives in and is educated within, and, as has been pointed out, Cymer Afan is actually proposed to be closed with pupils transported and transferred a distance of over 10 miles. The experience they have of getting home post school education—in other words, they often stay behind for after-school activities, and that's an important part of the well-being of the learner, to be able to do that—means that there will be difficulties in that aspect. When you look at this, because it might well come across your desk, will you also consider the well-being of the community and the well-being of the learner beyond just the educational experience inside the school itself? Will you also look at, perhaps, whether there needs to be a consultation under the new school reorganisation guidelines, and not the old ones?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Could I assure David and, indeed, all Members here that any applications to close a school that do find their way onto my desk are scrutinised forensically and are done so in accordance with existing Welsh law and statutory guidance?

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

While holding a surgery in Maesteg, I was asked by parents about school closures in their area. They stated the new super-sized school being built in Port Talbot did not have sufficient children living locally in the area to fill the places and, therefore, children were coming from much further away and expected to fill these places. Their concern was that some children living a distance away would mean that, in one day, they would be on the school bus for almost two hours. Therefore, what discussions have you had with parents raising these concerns and do you not agree with me that that is an unreasonable expectation of both parents and children?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I would encourage all those, and I'm sure they already have—if they have concerns about the statutory notice that has been put out by Neath Port Talbot, then they need to participate in that consultation. As I said earlier, there is some guidance available that talks about notional travel times, what would be regarded as a disproportionate amount of time that one would expect a child to travel to education, but I'm not able to comment any further on any particular proposals, just in case they do arrive at Welsh Government for me to determine.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you. I’m in close contact with campaigners who are very concerned about consultations on the closure of a number of rural schools on Anglesey. I do understand the pressure on the council and I would like you to consider one element of those pressures, namely that one set of your officials, to all intents and purposes, is promoting the closure of rural schools by suggesting that funding from the twenty-first century schools programme won’t be available unless the local authority presents new building proposals that include the closure of existing schools. And on the other hand, you have officials who are completing the work on the new school organisation code, which will set a prejudice in favour of keeping rural schools open. In the current case on Anglesey, we need a new school in Llangefni and the expansion of the school too, but the conclusion that the council has come to is that as part of that, they would have to close other schools—Bodffordd, Henblas and Talwrn are being considered for closure. Are you in a position to tell the council that those two things, namely the availability of funding for a new school and the need to close existing rural schools, do not have to be linked together and that one isn’t dependent on the other?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Rhun, it really is a matter for the local authority in Ynys Môn to plan their school places, but let me be absolutely clear: any application under the twenty-first century schools programme for capital moneys is judged on a criteria, is examined by an external board to Welsh Government, with independent people looking at the value behind that individual application, and I'm not aware of applications being predicated on a need to close schools otherwise. With regard to the availability of the twenty-first century schools programme to build new schools, the programme is available for school refurbishment of an existing site, replacement schools, as well as newly constituted schools, and there are examples across Wales of all three, where the money is being used to refurbish an existing school, to replace an existing school building, or in some cases—and I was in Anglesey opening some of them recently—where there has been an amalgamation of schools, to create an area school with new facilities.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the support available for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller pupils in Torfaen? OAQ52040

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Lynne. 'Education in Wales: Our National Mission' is clear on our commitment to ensure that all learners in Wales are fully supported to reach their potential. Working with partners, we are determined to overcome the particular challenges that face some groups of learners, including Gypsy, Roma and Traveller learners, whose achievements, for instance, at 16 are not where any of us would want them to be.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you. As you're aware, I recently visited the Torfaen Traveller education service based at West Monmouth School, and it was absolutely fantastic to see how well the young people are doing, how they're getting really good qualifications, and some of them are considering going on to university. As you also know, I'm very much behind your efforts to tackle early entry, but one of the issues that was raised with me by the young people is the fact that having the facility of early entry is absolutely vital for Traveller children, because some of them take the summer off to go travelling. What assurances can you offer that changes to early entry will take account of the needs of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community? But also, will you join me in congratulating the Torfaen Traveller education service, and also the staff who work there, for the fantastic work they're doing?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, I would be delighted to recognise the success of that school, building on what Estyn did in 2016, where it recognised that what happens at West Monmouth School provides fantastic opportunities for young people and children from the Gypsy/Traveller community. They are keeping those children in school, and they're going on to achieve really well, and they have focused very much on building really strong links with families and parents in that community. I am aware of the importance of allowing some schools, where there are Gypsy/Traveller children, to have early entry, especially in the autumn series of exams, because we do recognise that that may be the only opportunity that those children have to take a public examination. That's one of the reasons that was at the forefront of my thinking last year when we made our decisions about early entry, and why we did not ban early entry outright, because to do so would have been to deprive those schools, and those children, of the opportunities of sitting their formal examinations. It is perfectly appropriate, in those cases, that children are entered early, and that's why we still allow schools to have that option, where they can allow children to enter exams early when it is in the best interests of the children, and West Monmouth School have shown they certainly have the best interests of these children at heart.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next questions, therefore, to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services. And the first question, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote breastfeeding? OAQ52042

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government recognises the importance of breastfeeding, and is committed to its promotion and increased uptake. Public Health Wales have responsibility for delivering this programme, and are leading national breastfeeding week, from 20 to 26 June. This will include a social media campaign and supporting professionals with local events, and I do hope that AMs across the Chamber will support and promote that week, and breastfeeding more generally.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The benefits of breastfeeding for mothers and babies are well documented. However, it's really important that new mums receive the support that they need. Last year, I was really proud to attend the maternity unit at the Royal Gwent Hospital to see Aneurin Bevan Local Health Board receive the prestigious Baby Friendly award, and to pay tribute to the midwives and support workers for their commitment on this. In addition, progress has been made, with Newport City Council and the health board launching Breastfeeding Welcome. Through displaying a Breastfeeding Welcome logo, organisations show that they'll be friendly and supportive to mothers wanting to breastfeed. How can these initiatives of good practice be supported? And I wonder if you can give us an update on the task and finish group and the progress on that group and indicate when you expect it to report.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the follow-up question. I welcome the steps made by Newport to make it expressly clear—no pun intended—that breastfeeding is welcome across the city. There's a model for other people to follow, because it is about encouraging mothers to breastfeed when they're out of the home, and actually encouraging all of us to be supportive in that environment as well. I did set up a task and finish group to look at improving breastfeeding rates in Wales last year, following a meeting with the Royal College of Midwives. Our breastfeeding rates have improved over the last 10 years—up to 61 per cent at birth—but we know that (a) we want that rate to be higher, but also for breastfeeding to continue. I am expecting the task and finish group to report to me within a month with those recommendations, and I expect to update Members not only on receipt of the report but the Government response to that report and its recommendations.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I will stick to the subject. As a huge supporter of breastfeeding, having four children who were all breastfed, I can see the benefits of that. But, sadly, many new mothers give up after a short period of time and cite a lack of support, or a perceived lack of support, that they might have had from a designated midwife, because of pressure on community and maternity services. Have you, in the time that you've been health Secretary, identified that lack of support in the community, in particular the amount of time that expectant mothers can spend with a dedicated midwife to support them in breastfeeding and allowing them to continue right the way through the child's best part of its life?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise the point made about how people are practically supported to both initiate and then also to continue breastfeeding. There's something about the broader expectation on mothers themselves, through pregnancy, as well as partners, family members, and broader society. And the point made about who is the right healthcare professional to support that mother, to support that family, is part of what I'm expecting the report—the task and finish report—to come back to me on. And if we need to think again about the mix of staff that we have—because it may not need to be a midwife; there are other healthcare professionals, including those who are experienced healthcare professionals who might be coming back in to work, as well, indeed, as volunteers. Because lots of what women say they have found effective are actually peer-to-peer support groups as well. So, there's a broader piece of work that I'm expecting to be done by that task and finish group to understand what we need to do, both employed healthcare staff, volunteers, and the broader changes that we all need to be part of helping to support within our society.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Bowel Screening Wales programme? OAQ52035

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you. We have a well-established national population bowel screening programme in Wales, with nearly 147,000 men and women screened during 2016-17. We continually look for ways to increase uptake, and recently announced the introduction of a better and more user-friendly testing system, which will be rolled out from January 2019.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

The Cabinet Secretary will know that, in the latest year for which figures are available, the uptake of those eligible decreased from 54.4 per cent to 53.4 per cent, so a 1 per cent reduction. I hope this does not become a trend. And, also, at the moment, screening is not offered to anyone over 75. And I have a constituent who's been very anxious about this because he has taken part in the programme. They arrive at their 75th birthday then they cannot get the screening kits, and I do think this aspect of the screening programme should be reviewed.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise the concern. This is part of the difficult choice and challenge in making decisions. We, as every UK nation, are advised by the UK National Screening Committee, and that does recommend routine screening up to the age of 74. The Wales Screening Committee actually recently considered whether to offer bowel screening for those people who self-referred over the age of 74, but their recommendation to us is that the evidence does not support doing that; the position remains unchanged. Part of our challenge, as always, is where we have the greatest impact on health, and that is difficult because individual circumstances will arise where people say, 'I would like a different choice to be made by the whole system.' Our focus is on the successful roll-out of the newer and better test to the population that we currently have, and, actually, on increasing the uptake. The positive news is that pilots of the new test have shown an increased uptake in those pilot areas. So, I look for a significant improvement as we roll out the new test, and, of course, we'll continue to be guided by the best available advice and evidence. And, if that changes, then I'll be happy to consider changing the choice that the Government and the national health service make.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, I also look forward to the uptake being increased, because the new faecal immunochemical test is obviously more sensitive and a better test. But there are two issues. I also look forward to you perhaps looking at the age 50 to 60, because we don't have that age being accepted, but there may be individuals who have a history in families doing that, which you may want to specialise in. But those types of things mean more referrals, and, if you actually you do the FIT test, which is more sensitive than currently being proposed, you will definitely have more referrals and we have a problem with endoscopy and nurses and doctors in that area—we have a problem with diagnostics. What's the Welsh Government going to do to, basically, attack that problem, so that we can ensure that, if we get more referrals, they will be seen as quickly or quicker than they are now?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise the issue that David Rees raises on both points, both about the fact that we don't currently offer the test for people who are in the age bracket between 50 and 59—. And, again, our ambition is clear: we want to be able to do that. But, actually, our challenge is that, when we're seeing a falling level of uptake in the screening for the current population we provide screening for, we need to understand better how to implement that more successfully as we then are ambitious to actually roll out to the younger age group as well, which is in line with the advice we've received. So, we have advice not to roll out for 75-year-olds and above. We do have advice that we need to get the position where, with a successful uptake, we then roll out to people over the age of 50 up to 59.

On your second point about diagnostics, we've actually made significant progress on reducing diagnostic waits more generally, but it is recognised that, with the new test, we'll expect more demand. That's why health boards have been investing in endoscopy services over a number of years, and we're also expecting to see that the endoscopy implementation group will come up with more plans and proposals on improving both the efficiency and the quality and the capacity within those services—it's not just in this area, but on the greater diagnostic capacity.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Last week, we had a meeting of the cross-party group on cancer, where we were looking at the diagnostic workforce in Wales, and the issue that David Rees has brought up came up strongly, about the lack of endoscopy nurses, with a vacancy rate of 11 per cent. And, with evidence given about nurses leaving to go to private companies, I wondered what more the Government could do to try to ensure that we do manage to keep these nurses, who are obviously vital if we're going to develop our screening programme in the way he's described.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, there are two points. One is about what we do to retain our current workforce into the future, and the second is our planning for the future, both in terms of increasing our capacity and actually being able to have training numbers that match that future capacity. And that is the work that Government is already undertaking. I reported on this issue, actually, in a meeting at the start of this week to the Wales Cancer Alliance. They raised concerns they'd raised within the cross-party group, so I recognise the issue that exists, as I said in answer to David Rees. We will need to come forward in the next stage of our planning—and the work of Health Education Improvement Wales is part of this in understanding what we need to do to plan for that future, as well as making sure that the current working environment is one where we'll retain more and more of our staff and, of course, our experience in this area of work.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, England and Scotland publish data regularly on cancelled surgery. Is there any reason why you don’t do that for Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We don't regularly publish—we answer responses to publish operations that are cancelled. I don't have any plans to add to official statistics on this matter unless there is a compelling case to do so. I'm happy to listen to that case as it's made.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

It is something that concerns my constituents. In January, you apologised for cancelled surgery, saying, at that point, that is was the onset of winter, which came from somewhere, that was to blame. But surgery is still being cancelled week on week. I’ve had a number of constituents coming to see me recently to tell me about treatments being cancelled not once, not twice, not three times, but even more than that. There was one man who was starting to see mental health problems emerge in his wife because of the strain of having these treatments cancelled time and time again. The question is: what do we do about this? Is there scope to introduce financial incentives in order for health boards not to cancel? Is there scope to compensate patients even, or why not just ensure that these treatments aren’t cancelled time and time again?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I do recognise that this is an issue that causes significant inconvenience and worry for any patient or their family when an operation is cancelled, whether it's a minor or a more significant one. There's challenge about individual issues, and if he wants to contact me with the particular circumstances that he's mentioned then I'll happily take them up with the health board about the reasons behind that. As well as those times where there are individual issues, there are system-wide challenges that we recognise and actually the majority of operations that are postponed are postponed by the individual in question as opposed to by the health service. Our quest is both to understand why that happens and to avoid those operations being cancelled, whether they're by the citizen or by the service. And, on that, I have to say I'm rather more sceptical about the value of financial incentives or sanctions to do so in terms of the impact that will have on the system, because, when the health service cancels an operation, it is largely because they don't have the capacity to do so and that is often about the overtopping of unscheduled care into the primary care system or is due to unforeseen staff unavailability. I don't think that financial incentives or sanctions would necessarily help that. What I do think, though, is that our ability to plan and deliver across the service is more important. That's why we've brought together regional planning fora in south-east Wales, in mid and west Wales, and it's why we continue to support the health board in north Wales not only to achieve a significant improvement in referral-to-treatment times to the end of the financial year that's just finished, but also they'll continue to receive support for the future.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

You talk about patients cancelling their own operations, and it is something that we hear from you and your Government quite often, that it's often the patient's fault for turning up in hospital when they shouldn't and for being ill perhaps when they shouldn't. I can tell you about stories of people having their operation cancelled when they're on the trolley at the door of the theatre, and not for the first time—for the second, for the third time. We cannot continually blame the patient for taking the wrong course of action. We know that cancellations happen for all sorts of different reasons, and, yes, of course, some patients cancel their own treatments. We know of administrative problems—operations being booked in for when clinicians are on leave. It shouldn’t happen, but, okay, it happens from time to time. We know we have staff shortages. I won't go there today—I'll have plenty of opportunity to come back to that one. But, quite often, at the heart of why an operation is cancelled is that, somewhere in the system, there's a bed missing. We've lost 1,000 beds since 2011, either at district general hospitals or in community hospitals. And, yes, we need to get patients home or to their usual place of residence as quickly as we can, but I am absolutely convinced that the loss of community beds is costing our NHS very, very dearly and it's costing our patients very, very dearly. Will you agree with me that the time has come to reinstate lost community beds? Because otherwise what we will see is patients being trapped in a system and operations, yes, being cancelled time and time again and the detrimental effect that that has on patients, not just in the short-, but in the long-term too.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the follow-up question. I do think it really is unfortunate that you recast my words in a way that have absolutely not been provided. I'm not blaming the patient for being sick or inconvenient to the health service. It is a fact, though, that over half of the operations that are cancelled are cancelled by the patient. We need to understand why that is, to understand how we can help patients to plan what they wish to do and to understand the impact on the service. In addition to that, we need to deal with those matters that are in control of the service as well. I think I'm pretty clear in stating that, both in writing and on each occasion when questions are asked. Part of that is actually the challenge about beds, and not just the numbers but the numbers of staff you need to staff beds, but also the bed mix and where that is, because actually it's about having appropriate beds for step-up and step-down through the hospital system, and that may be about the rehabilitation focus to get people out of an acute hospital.

But we have seen a significant increase in efficiency through the service already. There is a significant increase in day surgery rates within the national health service in Wales. It's why we're able to be more efficient in actually undertaking a greater amount of surgery than ever before. But, in particular, it is about the planning of that activity through the whole year. Part of that challenge, honestly, is that, in the last quarter of each year—from January to March—we plan too much activity. We're not able to frontload that activity through spring and the summer, and that's part of the challenge that I set for the health service again this year: to do even more of that activity that can be planned and delivered in the summer months. Trying to deliver the greatest amount of activity between January and March obviously leaves a risk, and we saw that this year, where there were significant weather events, and that has affected not just the unscheduled care part of the system but the planned care part of it as well. That is absolutely part of our challenge. The health service understands that, I understand that, and I expect to see significant improvement within the first six months of this new financial year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Conservatives' spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. To the Minister, these questions, I think. In July 2016, your predecessor told us that the carers strategy was being refreshed and,

'That will be happening later this year',

which, of course, meant 2016. It's now 2018, and the most recent carers strategy for Wales is still branded 2013, and, in a written statement last year, you still referred to the strategy as being a 2013-16 strategy. I know about your ministerial advisory group, but I think it is a surprise that a change of Minister seems to have comprehensively derailed the publication of a strategy that was, to the naked eye, virtually ready for publication. Can you tell us what's happened, please?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, indeed. Thank you for the question, Suzy. It's not the case, actually, that the strategy refresh and review has been derailed. It is under way, but we're not waiting for that either. We're getting on with a range of matters in respect of carers, and not waiting for the carers ministerial advisory group, either, to do it as well. I refer back to the statement that I made previously here, in the Assembly. So, for example, we only recently launched the toolkit for schools on identification of carers. So, there's some tremendous work going on, and it's focused on identifying, providing the advice and support for those carers, including on respite—and flexible respite as well—but also focus on bringing together the third sector, local authorities and other public bodies that can actually provide that wraparound service for carers. But the critical thing is that we're getting on with it while we also look to refresh and review that strategy. Strategies are fantastic, and we need them refreshed and reviewed. We also need to get on with the actual actions that will deliver the right outcomes for carers as well.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister. I'm always happy to welcome action, as long as that action is both forthcoming and effective, shall we say. I don't think your answer quite explained what's happened in the last 18 months, in terms of what happened to a strategy that was nearly ready. Perhaps I could move on to some of the other points that have been raised with me by carers in meetings, one of which is the variety of understanding of carers' rights that there is between different local authorities, and actually within some departments within local authorities. Can you clarify who is responsible for ensuring consistency of assessment in different councils, and why this is an ongoing problem?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I think you rightly identify an issue that follows on from the approach that we've taken of co-production, which is supported by all Members here, that, in terms of assessing the needs of carers, it should be something on which we work in collaboration with the individual who is looking to see the right care package—the right package of support and advice for them—but they also, of course, have the right to advocacy as well, and they also have the right to make representations when they don't think the right package has been put forward for them. All of those places are not only there in terms of the legislation, but also the codes as well.

Now, if there are specific instances, Suzy, that you want to draw to my intention, I'm more than happy to look at them. There will, of course, be variability in the way that this is done between local authorities, but our expectation, as the Welsh Government, is that the entire focus in every individual circumstance is that this is done with the individual to provide them with the right package of support for them as a carer, and, if they're not satisfied with that, then they have that recourse to advocacy, they have that right to challenge that package that's been put forward. There's tremendous work, I have to say, being done on the ground as well by people such as the Carers Trust, who I meet regularly, and take these issues up on behalf of individuals who aren't happy with the package.

There is the backdrop to this as well, I have to say, which is the context—that in putting the right support and advice package together, including respite support for carers, we do it against the context in which we exist. You will see local authorities in the region that the Member represents as well saying, 'Ideally, we would like to provide something that is more enriched, more deep, wider for that individual. We cannot do it because of the cutbacks in local authorities', and that is the reality of some of the decisions that are made in a co-productive way. It's right to do it in a co-productive way, but when a local authority says, 'Well, because of the financial constraints we're under, which is because of where we are with austerity funding, we cannot provide the entirety of services that we wanted', that has an impact on the individual at the end. It's a tragedy to see, and I saw it when I met recently with young carers in Carmarthen; they liked the approach that we were taking to this, they liked the fact that their voices were being heard now more than ever, but they were frustrated when, with the best will in the world, in their local area they were being told, 'Well, that day club, that evening out, that whatever—it isn't available anymore. We'll have to look at something else'.

So, we have to wrestle with this all the time, about how we put the right package together. But they have advocacy, they have the right to co-determination of this package being put forward, and I think that's the right legislative framework to be put in place.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for the answer. I can't say that I'm particularly happy with your response that co-production might be responsible for the variety in terms of delivery, because of course we all agree that, if this isn't patient centred, then no strategy is going to work. My question was about assessments, and the standard and consistency of those assessments, and I don't think you captured that. I think we're all aware, of course, that when it comes to giving people rights, the delivery against those rights is pretty spasmodic and very, very variable in a range of areas across Wales.

You mentioned the Carmarthenshire young adult carers. You may be aware that I'm supporting the principle that's been captured within that petition, to help young adult carers take better advantage of post-16 education and apprenticeships without unnecessary financial disincentive. I think combined with the Welsh Conservative offer on free or discounted transport, which doesn't depend on renationalisation of any buses, this is a new policy targeted at helping young adult carers find a future alongside or after caring.

You must have had the results of the assessment of the 2013-16 strategy by now. What are the findings for meeting the education and employment needs of young adult carers in that strategy?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I'm more than happy to write to Suzy with the details of the outcomes of that, but also the wider strategies that we are taking forward for employability. But, of course, there is also a wide range of other measures of support that we can put in place for young adult carers as well, and I know that she will join me—and I'm happy to write to her on that specific issue—in welcoming the number of local authorities that are now also providing exemption for carers on their tax as well.

So, I'm happy to write to her on that specific issue to give her an update on that, but also happy as well, and I'm sure she will support the fact, that the ministerial advisory group for carers now will be looking to take forward many of these issues and develop workstreams around them.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, according to the national survey for Wales 2016-17, obesity in Wales is worse than in any other nation in the UK. Fifty-nine per cent of adults are considered overweight, and 26 per cent of children starting primary school are classed as obese or overweight. What steps are the Welsh Government taking to tackle child obesity in Wales, and in particular in the economically deprived regions of Wales, such as my own region, South Wales West?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We have a range of measures in place already, for example the healthy schools network, the 10 steps to a healthy weight, and, indeed, the daily mile introduced by my ministerial colleague Rebecca Evans when she was the public health Minister. There is a range of things we're already doing to undertake both greater physical activity, greater awareness of health behaviour, including diet of course, but we're looking also to the obesity strategy, which this Assembly passed as part of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, and I'm looking forward, before the summer, to reporting back formally to this place on the steps that we're taking to take forward a consultation on the future of that strategy.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Troubling research undertaken by the University of Southampton has shown that only 15 per cent of schools provide two hours of physical exercise each week for seven to 11-year-olds, and it is felt that the Welsh Government should engage with schools, nutritionists and parents to reverse the increase in child obesity and that this engagement is the key to maybe solving the obesity crisis in Wales.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There are a range of measures here and, actually, when we think about the challenges that we face, this is part of the common challenges we face in a range of public health outcomes: smoking, alcohol intake, diet and exercise, and in particular diet and exercise where it refers to obesity but also alcohol as well. As to the role of schools, it isn't just about the children when they're in school of course, but that is a significant part of it, which is why I'm really pleased to be continuing to work with my cabinet colleague, the education Secretary on curriculum reform and the health and well-being domain about behaviour we want children to take on board whilst they're at school.

But there's actually a broader point about the family and the community that children live in, and what are expected behaviours within that family and the choices people make, as well, of course, as encouraging people to alter the way in which they provide food. So, steps that have already been taken, for example to reduce sugar content in drinks, are to be welcomed. There are more steps that I'd like to see food manufacturers undertake. I'm thinking about the fat content and other issues too, but we can't simply see it as one part of it. That's why I see the child in their context, the family in their context, and our obesity strand needs to think carefully about how it addresses each of those, the levers the Government has available to us, and the partners we need to work with to make a real difference for public health now and in the future.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. It's positive to hear that family engagement is a priority for you, and I'd like you to also look at exploring avenues of increasing the range of extra-curricular activities. I appreciate the Welsh Government has been working in this area. Forty-eight per cent of school pupils in years 3 to 11 in Wales are taking part in organised physical activity. I wish to highlight Wales's success in the Commonwealth Games. We must encourage all children to be as active as they can and encourage children who excel at sport at the same time. So, what is the Welsh Government doing to encourage the 52 per cent of children who do not participate in any physical activity, whilst at the same time encouraging and assisting the local sports clubs who are struggling financially along with individuals who have a talent but lack the necessary funding to excel in their sport?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'll try and give three particular points there. On organised sport, whether it's elite sport, and the role it can have as regards role models, not limited in terms of a media profile, but actively going and engaging within their community, and its role linked to community sport—. In work that I did previously with Rebecca Evans when she was a public health Minister—work that I'm looking to repeat and undertake with my ministerial colleague Dafydd Elis-Thomas—I'm looking at the continued contribution of organised sport to broader physical activity, and the role that governing bodies have to play and the role that significant and elite sporting organisations have to play in promoting community engagement are part of what we're doing. That is organised as opposed to incidental. I'm looking forward to more information on that.

In terms of physical activity, and this is, of course, not just about activity within the school, but it is about how people choose to live their lives and how we encourage and enable that and make it easier. That's why active travel is a particularly important policy to normalise walking or cycling to school, and to normalise walking or cycling outside of trips to and from the school. And that is also why we continue to fund activities like the summer holiday enrichment programme—additional activity linked to physical activity, linked to learning within the school, and also, importantly, as I said at the start, linked to proper engagement with the whole of that family, making a real and lasting difference.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the recruitment and retention of staff within the Welsh NHS? OAQ52018

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We are working closely with health boards through our successful national and international marketing campaign ‘Train. Work. Live.’ Health boards are using the campaign to recruit and retain healthcare professionals with positive results.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. You'd be aware of the considerable residential developments that are going on around the city of Cardiff, and in particular I draw your attention to the developments in the west of the city, where surgeries and practices have issued notices to say they are unable to take on more patients because they haven't been allowed any more resources to recruit and, importantly, retain staff to meet the increased demand of new housing. Do you recognise that as a problem in the system of provision of primary medical services, and what discussions have you had with the health board in the Cardiff and Vale area to try and address that resource issue that new developments are creating to the west of the city on GP surgeries?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There are challenges about population growth where it exists, and it's not just within the Cardiff area—though that is the most significant part—but it's also within north-east Wales. We've seen some areas of population growth there also. So, there's a broader challenge about managing that. There's something about the number of staff we have, but also the way in which those staff are organised, and so the way in which we organise local healthcare will matter, the numbers of doctors, but other professionals too.

There are conversations I've had with the local health board, both in my capacity as a constituency Member but also as the Cabinet Secretary, about what the future will look like. The challenge in resourcing, as ever, is that when we put extra resource into one part of the health service, it does not necessarily exist for another. That's also a challenge the Government faces when we are allocating our budget after eight years of reduction in the real-term budget. But we always need to look at how we have a more effective use of the resources we currently have, as well as the continual campaign for greater resources for public services here in Wales.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I'm grateful to my colleague Dai Rees who's going to be bringing forward a short debate later on today about the impact of austerity, which is clearly at the heart of so much that we can and can't do. So, continuing that theme, Cabinet Secretary, even though you've been able to protect nursing bursaries in Wales, which the UK Government in England has cut—and the Royal College of Nursing have made significant comments about that today during a debate—would you agree that the Welsh Government could have done even more for nursing and front-line NHS staff, whether that's in training or recruitment, if we'd not faced over £1 billion of cuts since 2010? And would you further agree that many of us in this Chamber are just getting a little bit tired of hearing Tory benches constantly calling for more investment in health when it's their UK Government in Westminster that have chosen to make such deep cuts in our budgets? [Interruption.]

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Despite the noise of outrage from the Tory benches, what the Member says is factually and undeniably correct. Members on Conservative seats in this place need to recognise that they have been champions of austerity for three successive general elections. For three successive general elections, you have been champions of austerity. You cannot now avoid the unavoidable consequence of that austerity. Despite eight years of Tory austerity, we have record numbers of health service staff, because of choices made by this Welsh Labour Government. Despite eight years of Tory austerity, we have record numbers of registered nurses, because of choices made by this Welsh Labour Government. The Tories will stand up for austerity, they won't stand up for the health service, they won't stand up for a proper funding settlement for Wales, because it is in their interest and because it is their ideological obsession. The Tories will always be the same.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, as has been highlighted before, the cross-party group on cancer last week highlighted some concerns over recruitment of staff. It also highlighted that staff banding in speciality areas is actually lower in Wales than in England. Some are band 6 in Wales, where the equivalent post is a band 7 in England. Staff therefore are either migrating to an equivalent job with better pay in England or actually not even coming into Wales. What's the Welsh Government going to do to ensure an equality of staff banding for equivalent work across the UK?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

These are negotiations that are ongoing with our trade unions, as representatives of the workforce. In England, they imposed a variety of measures into the contract. I am proud of the fact that we listen to and engage with our trade unions as workforce representatives. I look forward to a future conversation about Agenda for Change terms and conditions. If there is to be, finally, more money from the UK Treasury, we can have a conversation here in Wales with our partners about how to allocate that money to our hard-working NHS staff and those areas where we think it will make a particular difference to the service provided and outcomes for people here in Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

4. How is the Welsh Government improving prostate cancer diagnosis rates? OAQ52016

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Health boards are expected to deliver care in line with guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence on referral for suspected cancer and the diagnosis of prostate cancer. Our approach to helping health boards and supporting them is set out in the cancer delivery plan for Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Last month, I called for a Welsh Government statement on multiparametric—or mp—MRI scans for NHS patients for suspected prostate cancer. Subsequently, you wrote to a patient to say that Betsi Cadwaladr university health board does provide mpMRI scans in line with the current NICE guidelines for prostate cancer. The guidelines state that multiparametric MRI should be considered

'for men with a negative transrectal ultrasound 10–12 core biopsy to determine whether another biopsy is needed.'

One of those men you were writing to was one of many men who have contacted me in north Wales who were not offered an mpMRI scan following a negative biopsy, unless they paid around £1,000 to have it carried out at a private hospital. Given that Wrexham Maelor is the only centre in Wales that participated in the England and Wales PROMIS—prostate MRI imaging study—which found that whereas the painful transrectal ultrasound-guided biopsy offered by Betsi Cadwaladr is only 47 per cent accurate, the mpMRI scan is over 90 per cent accurate, how are you ensuring that men in Wales participate in or take advantage of the £75 million research project launched by the UK Prime Minister, which will recruit 40,000 men into trials for better diagnosis and treatments for the disease using mpMRI scans?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The pilot you refer to in England is a London-only pilot, so it's not a national pilot that takes in the whole of England in any event. We have pilots that are being run here in Wales in a variety of health boards. As I say, we will continue to provide a service that is in line with NICE guidance. The NICE guidance is due to be updated in April 2019. If we have the Welsh urology board—again, our clinicians here in Wales—if they reach a clinical consensus in advance of that, we can make different choices right across the service, but at this point, the provision is evidence based. Actually, there is a high satisfaction rate from prostate cancer patients here in Wales. I'm satisfied that health boards are doing what they should do, but, of course, we will always have more to learn from pilots in every part of the country, just as, indeed, pilots in north Wales will have much to teach the rest of the country in a variety of areas; for example, in a different area of the advanced paramedic trial in north Wales, where there'll be learning for the rest of the country to learn from there. It is entirely normal to have pilots to take learning from and then improve the whole service—that is exactly what we are doing with prostate cancer as well.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

What's just been outlined in Betsi is also true of Hywel Dda, and I have a constituent who's also been told to pay £1,000 for a multiparametric MRI scan. The reason for that is that, as you say, the NICE guidelines talk about such a scan following a biopsy, but we have health boards in Wales—Cardiff and the Vale, Cwm Taf and Aneurin Bevan—that offer these scans as a routine diagnostic tool with, as has just been set out, improved pick-up rates of some 93 per cent, and less risk of bleeding, infection and sepsis following the more invasive other tools that have been used for prostate cancer following raised prostate-specific antigen levels.

I don't understand—I did write to you regarding this constituent—why it is we have this postcode lottery on prostate diagnosis in Wales. Yes, the NICE guidelines are there, but they are the minimum requirement. Since we have three health boards in Wales offering more, then surely all of those health boards in Wales should offer more, because, as you say in your letter to me, there is evidence that this is good practice. Well, if it's good practice and it's evidenced, offer it for everyone and offer it for my constituents in Hywel Dda as well.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

As I said in my first answer to Mark Isherwood, there are pilots running in Wales. If there is a new clinical consensus, underpinned by evidence, in Wales, we can make a system-wide shift. That is where we are. There are pilots in the three health boards that you mention. The evidence base for that is gathering and growing, and we will then be able to make a choice on the basis of the evidence and on the basis of the very best clinical advice. Until then, I don't think any health Minister would say that they wish to direct the health service to offer a service that is not underpinned by the very best available clinical evidence and advice.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on cancer services in Wales? OAQ52027

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The cancer delivery plan outlines our vision for cancer services in Wales. It brings stakeholders together to drive improvement in cancer services and outcomes. The plan was updated and re-published in November 2017 and will take us through to 2020.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Earlier this month, my constituent Mr Huw Thomas of Bargoed brought to my attention a new initiative for cancer treatment that is being introduced by NHS England, which is the creation of one-stop shops for cancer diagnosis with all of the necessary tests to diagnose the disease being carried out in one centre. The aim is to speed up the identification of particular types of cancer. I understand that there are two such pilots in Wales—I may be wrong about that, but that's what I was told last week. I'm aware of the Welsh Government's strategic document you made reference to, but it doesn't specifically mention that. So, can the Cabinet Secretary clarify that and give us his thoughts on whether such an initiative would be of benefit in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, and I'm grateful to the Member for raising the issue. It highlights, in some ways, how an announcement made in England will often grab attention and headlines, whereas work we are already doing in advance of England often doesn't reach the same pick-up. In this area, we've actually been looking at what we're calling a vague symptom pathway, which is essentially a one-stop shop, and those pathways are being piloted in both Cwm Taf health board and the Aneurin Bevan health board. It's a two-year pilot. We've already undertaken about a year of that. After a second year, we'll have an evaluation to understand the impact of it. This is part of the cancer implementation group's work for that focus on earlier identification. It comes from work done by Welsh clinicians when they visited Denmark to understand what they had done more successfully on the early identification of cancer. So, it's an area where we're actually ahead of the pilot they're undertaking in England, and I expect to have results earlier than that. Then, of course, I'll be more than happy to report back to this place and the wider public about what we continue to do to improve cancer outcomes here in Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, April is Bowel Cancer Awareness Month. According to a report by Bowel Cancer UK, patients at five out of seven health boards in Wales are waiting too long for tests to diagnose bowel cancer, and less than half of people eligible for screening tests have had them. Given that bowel cancer survival rates in Wales are among the worst in Europe, what action will the Welsh Government take to address the lack of capacity in our hospitals to meet existing demand and increase awareness of the need for screening tests among at-risk groups in Wales? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The points on staff capacity we've discussed in answer to a previous question on work that is already under way, about the fact that our diagnostic capacity is showing an increase, an that there's an improvement in waiting times for people here in Wales. We've also discussed what we're doing to improve outcomes in answer to the question raised by your colleague David Melding. I'm looking to improve bowel testing and screening uptake. And actually, the biggest challenge there is getting the public to undertake the screening test themselves. That's why we're going to introduce a more effective and more sensitive test in January next year.

So, we are already taking steps and, actually, when you look at our rates compared to the rest of the UK, we actually compare pretty well in terms of cancer outcomes. In terms of cancer waits, we could talk at length about the fact that we generally have a better performance on cancer waits in Wales than in England and, actually, our direct survival rates are directly comparable with England. When they have a more advantaged and wealthier population as a whole, you would actually expect their outcomes to be better.

But the real challenge for us is not just to say that we compare well with England and the rest of the UK; the real challenge for us here in Wales is that every nation in the UK is at the wrong end of the survival table across Europe. Our ambition is not to continue to maintain a gap positively with England, but to do much better so that more people survive cancer after one year and five years, and when we're looking at our comparators in Europe, we can be much happier about where we are, and then again reset our sights on the next stage of improvement.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the future of health services in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area? OAQ52043

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Hywel Dda university health board is currently consulting on its proposals to transform community and hospital services in mid and west Wales. I encourage everyone with an interest to engage in and participate in the consultation, and have their say in helping to shape future services for the region.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the answer, and I will of course participate fully, as I'm already doing, in that conversation, but I think the people of west Wales deserve excellent healthcare delivered at a reasonable distance, and this includes the best healthcare possible, including urgent care and teaching hospitals. Bronglais in Aberystwyth looks after the northern part of the Hywel Dda area, and is in all scenarios being kept as it is. The question is: how do we deal with those aims and ambitions in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire?

Now, you know that the options put forward by Hywel Dda involve a new hospital, potentially, in that area. if we're going to have a genuine conversation about really revolutionising our community beds, our mental health and our hospital services in west Wales, then we need to understand that this is a genuine consultation based on understanding that this can happen. That means that, since we have not had major hospital investment in west Wales for the last 30 years, a new hospital is a potential way of delivering excellent healthcare. So, in order to ensure that this consultation is not a sham to hide further cuts, will you commit now that if the outcome of this consultation leads to Hywel Dda recommending a new hospital in the Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire areas, you as Welsh Government will work with Hywel Dda to realise that ambition?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I can't answer all of that question, because otherwise I'm in danger of putting myself into a position of not being able to make a decision at the end of the consultation. What I would say about healthcare in every part of Wales is that every community in Wales deserves excellent healthcare, and I agree with you about every community deserving excellent healthcare. As ever, when we talk about the future of healthcare, in committees we talk about primary and community care needing to do more of our activity and more of our budget in primary community care, and then we spend all of our time arguing about the hospital network. What I would remind Members of is that when, in the Gwent area, they had their clinical futures strategy, it took them some time to build support from stakeholders and it took them time to develop a business case for a new hospital that was part of that. They delivered in a variety of areas and then we were able to get alongside them and deliver the new hospital that is being constructed at this moment in time as the Grange university hospital.

What I would say about every area of Wales, rather than any specific proposals, is that if there are proposals that are designed to deliver and there's clinical support and evidence that they will deliver a better healthcare system, then we will of course get alongside any and every organisation to try and help them do that, bearing in mind the ability of the Government to do so. So, yes, we will think positively about every area of Wales when real and significant proposals are made, but I just can't comment specifically on the potential for proposals in Hywel Dda, because it is entirely possible that I will have to determine those at a point in the not-too-distant future.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, all three options in this consultation will result in the downgrading of Withybush hospital from a general hospital to a community hospital, which is totally unacceptable to the people that I represent. The consultation, as far as the people I represent are concerned, is worthless, given that they have no choice in this matter whatsoever. Surely this cannot be right. In the circumstances, I urge you to intervene in this matter and force the health board to actually bring forward proposals that are actually fair to the people of Pembrokeshire. Will you now intervene—'yes' or 'no'?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I've been very clear that this is a public consultation for members of the public to get involved with. I've also been very clear there's got to be clinical leadership about any other proposals, which is why it was important that clinicians took part not only in a presentation and conversation at board, they've got to be part of the conversation with the public. If I intervene now and if I say that, actually, it does not matter what clinicians themselves have come up with—it does not matter what comes from the public consultation—I will determine that for them, that actually will stop healthcare innovation and progress and reform in every part of the country. It matters that a conversation takes place, it matters that people are focused on delivering better healthcare and it matters that we're in a position as a country to make difficult choices. That is the challenge set for us by the parliamentary review. It tells us on the one hand that there is a good evidence base that some specialist services should be delivered in a smaller number of centres across the country—that will involve, for any community, greater travel—but also that we're able to provide more services within a wider network of community healthcare. Where those proposals come forward, where they're agreed with a clear clinical strategy, the Government will do what it can do to get alongside that. If we are to do that, if we are to meet the challenge set for us, which everybody in theory accepted in the parliamentary review, then we have to be able to have a difficult public consultation and the Government has to play its part as the potential ultimate decision maker.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, I do welcome the fact that we're moving into a consultation period and I did hear what my colleague Simon Thomas was asking, and I might well ask the same in the not-too-distant future, but what concerns me at this stage, at the moment, is that people have been in touch with me saying that the opportunities for them to engage in this process are limited, that they are geographically far apart from where those individuals might live and at times where people might not be able to attend these public events. My question to you today is if you could encourage Hywel Dda health board to widen the scope in terms of time and geographic location of their public consultations at this stage.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm happy to respond positively and say that Hywel Dda should respond positively to requests for further public engagement. It is in everyone's interest to have the maximum level of public engagement, not just with the health board at a leadership level but actually with clinicians in their local communities, whether in general practice or whether in hospital-based services or other community-based services, to make sure there is real clinical engagement with each other and with the wider public. I'm more than happy to say that I would want Hywel Dda to maximise all of those opportunities to engage with the public, including at locations and at times of the day that are properly convenient for everyone to engage and have their say.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline what action is being taken by the Welsh Government to tackle childhood obesity? OAQ52041

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. We will consult on a cross-Government strategy to prevent and reduce levels of obesity later this year. It will outline the actions needed at a Wales and UK level to complement existing measures like the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013, our Healthy Child Wales programme, and, of course, nutritional standards in schools.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you. As the Cabinet Secretary knows, Welsh Government will be receiving some £57 million as part of the new soft drinks levy, and I was concerned to see how little of that money is going to be spent on measures to tackle childhood obesity, which is very different to the approach being taken in the rest of the UK. I know that there are good schemes out there. The Health, Social Care and Sport Committee has taken lots of evidence on things that would make a big difference to children and young people and I know that the Welsh Local Government Association have been talking to officials about an exercise referral scheme for children and young people and also a scheme working with Public Health Wales that would ensure better use of things like third generation sports facilities in Wales. Will the Cabinet Secretary look at that money closely to ensure that we do use a much better proportion of that to tackle what is really a major public health challenge of our time? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise this is a major, significant public health challenge. That's why we've already taken some of the steps we've already taken, but it is about looking at what we do next, and I'd be very interested in the committee's report and its recommendations because we have not yet signed off a consultation on our strategy. Then I will finalise what the strategy should be and how we'll use our resources to make it real, because part of the challenge often is moving from strategy and well-meaning objectives that broadly everyone signs up to into how we persuade and get around certain members of the public to make different choices. That's not just making unhealthy choices more difficult or expensive; it is actually how we make healthier choices easier to undertake as well. So, I will definitely be interested in the evidence from the committee. I'll be interested in what other partners have to say and, yes, we'll engage in a range of—[Inaudible.]—before signing off not just the strategy but the recommendations, the action we'll take and how we'll fund that because, as I say, I do recognise that this is a real and significant public health challenge that has the potential to overtop significant parts of health and social care.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 8, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the availability and funding of treatment for the eye condition Keratoconus? OAQ52039

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. The treatment of kerataconus in adults is currently determined by health board local guidelines, which will include specialty guidelines and college guidelines and other best practice.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Cross-linking treatment was available for Welsh people who had this condition at Bristol Eye Hospital until 2015. Since then, I've had one case of an 18-year-old young woman whose eyesight was deteriorating, and she was advised that the condition was developing quickly. Her mother decided to pay for private treatment because she feared blindness. Since then, Abertawe Bro Morgannwg is providing this treatment once again. But we've experienced a situation where many people have been caught falling between these two time periods where they had no option apart from to go private. Can the Cabinet Secretary look into these cases and look at the anxiety that this caused and the possibility of repaying the costs of my constituent and others?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'd always want to consider how—. I think you recognise that it's a rare and complex condition, and the challenge is how we provide a proper service for people in this position, even if that is commissioning a service at some distance, whether within Wales or outside. I'm actually due to have a review that's been undertaken by both the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee and Health Technology Wales. We expect that to be available in the next month or so and it will be published, which may then help that moving forward into the future, but if you want to discuss the matters around your constituent, it may be more sensible for us to exchange more correspondence, and I'm grateful for the fact that you've written to me previously. But it may be sensible for us to actually have a discussion, and maybe to have a discussion when the report is published, and we can then link that to the position of your constituent to think about their circumstances and the broader picture in this specialist service.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Point of Order

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Point of order. David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Llywydd, I'd like to raise a point of order under Standing Order 6.15 and Standing Order 12.50. Big announcements by the Welsh Government, such as a review of a major public policy, surely need to be made orally to the Assembly. This permits timely scrutiny, and thereafter allows the Assembly to monitor and evaluate performance. In the Chamber yesterday, the leader of the house gave a cursory and unsatisfactory response to my concerns on the announcement of the review of affordable housing supply. She said it was for the Government to decide whether an oral or written statement was appropriate. The Welsh Government's press statement on this matter includes endorsements from Community Housing Cymru and the Chartered Institute of Housing specifically, and I quote:

'If we get this review right, it will be a big step towards solving the housing crisis.'

And, quote:

'We welcome today’s announcement of a review into housing policy in Wales.'

The importance of the review can be clearly inferred from these statements that were sought in advance by the Welsh Government, yet we have had no opportunity to scrutinise its scope or the suitability of those asked to conduct it.

Finally, there was a comprehensive review of housing need in 2015 sponsored by the Welsh Government. This was conducted by the UK's leading authority on housing need. It has not been acted upon. Why a new review? These are obviously vital questions. Llywydd, what powers do you have to require a Minister to make an oral statement in such circumstances?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for the notification of your intention to raise this as a point of order. As I said following a similar issue that was raised in a point of order yesterday, Government business is a matter for Welsh Ministers, not for me. But Ministers are accountable to this Assembly, and it is my expectation that they should not undermine that principle by making major policy announcements outside the Chamber. I expect that major announcements should be made directly to this Assembly so that there is the opportunity that you have sought, David Melding, for Members to scrutinise the Government on issues such as this.

Of course, it's important to remind Members as well—as I'm sure you're all very familiar with—of the various routes available to you to bring issues to the Chamber if the Government does not provide opportunities for examination. Those include emergency and topical questions, oral questions and opposition debates, and in addition, I'd say that Members can make representations about proposed Government business through the Business Committee, and I would hope that the leader of the house would give serious consideration to any such representations made by political parties here.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is topical questions, but no topical questions were selected.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And we move to the 90-second statements. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to congratulate the Baptist Union of Wales on its hundred and fiftieth anniversary. I speak as a member of Seion Newydd, the Welsh Baptist chapel based in Morriston. Yesterday, I attended an event in the Pierhead to celebrate the hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Welsh Baptists, and I'm very pleased that so many Members, including you, Llywydd, were present.

I want to highlight the role that the Welsh Baptists, along with other Welsh nonconformist chapels, played in the continuity of the Welsh language during the early part of the twentieth century. It also played a major role in Welsh politics, and provided many members to the Liberals, Labour and Plaid Cymru. The success of the Baptists' cause can be seen in the villages, towns and cities of Wales where there were in excess of 1,000 Baptist chapels.

Welsh Baptist ministers have played a major role in Welsh politics at hymn writing. Lewis Valentine was a famous hymn writer, whose most famous hymn was Gweddi dros Gymru, but was also an early member of Plaid Cymru and one of the three who in 1936 set a bombing school on fire. Thomas Price was a leading figure in the political and religious life of Victorian Wales, and a minister at Calfaria Baptist Chapel, Aberdare, whose first job was as a pageboy. Joseph Harris, Welsh Baptist minister—who had 'Gomer' as his bardic name—on 1 January 1814 launched the first Welsh language weekly Seren Gomer in Swansea. We, as a nation, owe a great deal of gratitude to the Baptist Union of Wales for what they've achieved for the last 150 years.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

On 1 April 1918, David Lloyd George approved the creation of the Royal Air Force, the world's first entirely separate and independent air force. The RAF would become the most powerful air force in the world, with more than 290,000 personnel and 23,000 aircrafts. Then, at a crucial point in world history, the RAF defended our island against the Nazi onslaught, in what became the most famous air battle in history, the Battle of Britain. But we in Wales are no strangers to the RAF's history and success. The famous bouncing bomb of the dambusters was tested in the Elan valley. Factory workers at Broughton built the Lancaster plane, which still flies today with the Royal Air Force in the Battle of Britain memorial flight. And the idea behind the RAF red arrows was formed in Wales, with the creation of the RAF yellowjacks at RAF Valley, in 1963.

Llywydd, to mark this momentous year in the RAF's history, there will be special events, activities, and other initiatives at local, regional and national levels, which will be running from this month until the end of November. One of the most notable events will be the centenary baton relay, which will see a specially designed baton visit 100 sites associated with the RAF, in 100 days. The baton will be visiting several locations in Wales, from 1 May to 11 May, starting in St Athan, and ending in RAF Valley.

We have so much to be thankful for, as the RAF has valiantly defended our freedom. If I could finish with the words of David Lloyd George, who said,

'The heavens are their battlefield. They are the Cavalry of the Clouds.'

5. Statement by the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee: The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill—the National Assembly's decision in relation to subordinate legislation procedures

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is a statement by the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, and the National Assembly's decision in relation to subordinate legislation procedures. I call on the Chair of the committee, Mick Antoniw, to make his statement.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you, Llywydd. Six weeks ago, on 7 March, this Assembly debated the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee’s report on the 'Scrutiny of regulations made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill'. Our inquiry that preceded that report considered the appropriateness of the scope and nature of delegated powers provided in the Bill to UK and Welsh Ministers, and the procedures that should to be used to scrutinise that delegated legislation. Given the Bill’s passage through the House of Lords, the report focused on amendments that we believed should be made to the Bill, and addressed questions that were raised by the Secretary of State for Wales in a letter to the Llywydd on 16 January.

Our report made seven recommendations, four of which recommended amendments to the EU withdrawal Bill. And for that reason, we believed it important and appropriate to seek the National Assembly’s views on those recommendations, and therefore the motion asking the National Assembly to note the committee report also requested that it endorse recommendations 1, 2, 4 and 7. And, on 7 March, that motion was agreed unanimously—there were no objections.

Consequently, on 22 March, the Llywydd wrote to the Secretary of State for Wales drawing his attention to the recommendations within our report, and that he receive the letter as formal notification of the National Assembly for Wales's position on what amendments should be made to the Bill in respect of procedures for the scrutiny of subordinate legislation made under its provision.

Members may not be aware that, subsequent to the events that I have summarised, the Leader of the House and Chief Whip formally responded to the committee’s report. In addition, the First Minister wrote to the Secretary of State for Wales in relation to both our report on the EU withdrawal Bill and the Bill’s sifting committee provisions. In both pieces of correspondence, the Welsh Government reject recommendation 2 of our report—that the recommendation of the sifting committee should be binding, save where the Assembly resolves otherwise.

On 17 April, I wrote to the First Minister to seek clarification on the reasons for the approach the Welsh Government has adopted. In particular, I have asked whether he could explain why, having advised in a letter to the Secretary of State for Wales on 5 February that matters relating to the sifting committee were for the National Assembly to determine, he subsequently wrote to the Secretary of State on 29 March rejecting a recommendation that had been unanimously endorsed by the National Assembly about the operation of that sifting committee. The First Minister has responded to my letter of 17 April this morning, for which I am grateful, and I note the comments that he has made.

I recognise that, during the Plenary debate, the leader of the house told the National Assembly that the Welsh Government was reserving its position on recommendation 2, pending thorough consideration. However, the leader of the house did not seek to amend the motion to reflect that position, which, as previously stated, was then unanimously endorsed by the whole house.

Without prejudicing the will of the Government—or without prejudicing the will of any Government—the National Assembly for Wales should not find itself in the position where it expresses a formal, all-party position that is then subsequently, or very soon after, called into question within correspondence of which the Assembly as a whole is not aware.

I've made clear to the First Minister in my letter to him that, as a committee, we are concerned generally at the transfer of power from legislatures to executives. The approach the Welsh Government has adopted on these matters undermines the prerogative of the legislature. Equally, it confuses the roles of parliaments and governments and makes proceedings here harder to understand for members of the public, to the detriment of devolution.

To make matters worse, the approach of the Welsh Government and the confusion around roles has now regrettably found its way into a UK Government supplementary memorandum on delegated powers in the EU withdrawal Bill. The memorandum was published on Monday this week, and states,

'The Welsh Government, having sought the views of the National Assembly for Wales, has requested the sifting committee procedure should apply where the Welsh Ministers lay negative instruments under their Schedule 2 powers.'

It would therefore appear that the UK Government has been influenced by the views of the Welsh Government rather than the National Assembly in making decisions on the procedures that should apply to the scrutiny of regulations made by the Welsh Ministers. I therefore welcome the letter I received this morning from the Llywydd, indicating that she shares the committee's concerns and will be giving further consideration to this matter.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Can I thank Mick Antoniw for seeking to defend the prerogatives of this Assembly so strongly? I think it's another example of Executive overreach. We were told at the dawn of devolution that we would do things differently. We would take what was best in the British parliamentary tradition, but we would ensure that we had openness and scrutiny, especially over—irony of irony—secondary legislation. And now we see the Welsh Government commit a deeply hostile act.

They weren't prepared to argue their case in open sight, despite the fact that this is a very long-standing principle that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee has had, in terms of that we should really be setting the procedures for this type of subordinate legislation and other vital matters. But, really, not to argue the case, to allow a motion to proceed and not oppose it, but then, in a calculated way, to petition the UK Government not to act on our recommendation. And, indeed, we don't even know that they told them what our recommendation was because it was a very strange reply we received in terms of the comment that was read out by Mick Antoniw.

As I said, this is part of a general trend by the Welsh Government when it seeks to set and mark its own homework in terms of the procedures that should apply. And, then, the other defence is, 'Well, Ministers are following the Counsel General's guidelines', as if the Counsel General is in charge of what sort of procedures the legislature should apply in its scrutiny of legislation. It really is a remarkable tangle, and now we have it in this most important part of the constitution when we're repatriating so much law that had previously been passed over to Brussels.

I really think it's shabby. Can I just assure Mick Antoniw that in all his efforts, as Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, to take this matter forward and hold the Government to account, he'll have our full support?

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for those comments, and they very much reflect, I think, the views I hope I've expressed, although we've not had the opportunity obviously to have a detailed discussion of what happened. When the report was presented, I actually went off message and made a very specific comment that I thought was important, and that is: it is not for Government to determine the mechanism for its own scrutiny. It is a fundamental part of the legislature. And I think the Government's response at that time was actually supportive of that. It is recognised. It is almost the rule of law of parliaments. So, this statement is not so much to do with the actual issue of the binding nature of the role of a sifting committee; it is actually about the principle whereby Government agrees, we all agree, that it is for the Assembly to determine the scrutiny of Government, and where that has been breached, it is certainly my role as the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, and its members, to actually stand up and draw attention to the fact that this is a matter of principle.

I recognise the points that were made and I recognise the comments that have been made by the First Minister in the letter to me, but time I don't think is a justification for that sort of breach. I note that when the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee was asked to scrutinise, for example, the continuity Bill at very short notice, Members went to considerable lengths to ensure that they were available and put the time in to actually carry out that process. So, this is a matter that I think is very important that it does not happen again.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Can I welcome the statement by the Chair of our committee, the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, Mick Antoniw? I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments expressed and those expressed by David Melding, a fellow member of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee.

This is a serious matter—absolutely serious matter—because, and I won't go over the history again, but obviously there's always a tension between governments and their individual legislatures. We'll hear, doubtless later on this afternoon, of the tension of powers lost between here and Westminster, but this is an issue of powers lost between us and the Government—a power grab internally, if you like, between Welsh Government and the Assembly itself.

Recommendation 2 that was passed unanimously here says that,

'The recommendation made by the sifting committee under recommendation 1 should be binding, save where the National Assembly resolves otherwise. This requirement should be reflected on the face of the Bill.'

I've got to say that that is not the most radical piece of legislation we've ever passed in this place. We've agreed unanimously and it puts the onus firmly on the National Assembly for Wales, where it should properly reside, in terms of the importance of scrutiny in this place. It is difficult enough performing scrutiny to a detailed degree as it is, with the various pressures on us, and obviously only about 40 or so Assembly Members can legitimately take part in that scrutiny process, and then when things are taken away from us, which we thought were previously agreed, that does not stack up.

Also, in correspondence, it has been embarrassing, not just for CLAC, but also, I would contend, for Llywydd here, when the position has been agreed and the Secretary of State then discovers that actually that agreed position of the National Assembly has been overridden by the First Minister here without recourse to this National Assembly for Wales. So, it is a moot point to ask what value we can place on unanimous votes placed and passed in this legislature when the First Minister can subsequently, and without warning, reject one of the main recommendations that had been passed unanimously, as Mick Antoniw has said.

The other important point, as regards the EU withdrawal Bill itself, which doubtless we will be discussing more in the next statement, is that the primacy of Welsh Ministers over the legislature here in the Senedd, as regards the sifting process, has found its way into the UK Government's supplementary memorandum on delegated powers in the EU withdrawal Bill itself. This is totally unacceptable and it undermines the decision-making processes of this Assembly, of which we are all proud members.

I seek reassurance. I note all the communications that have gone back and forth and the apologies, but at the end of the day, this is plainly just not good enough and it's a poor signal of the way the rest of the negotiations are going on as regards the totality of the EU withdrawal Bill, if we cannot get this situation correct.

The Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, we can respond in an emergency. We did that within a day with the continuity Bill, despite David Melding, to be fair, on a policy ground—even though that is not a legitimate concern for CLAC—not being totally involved in that procedure. We managed to turn it around in an urgent situation in a day. So, the First Minister's argument about the urgency of the situation trumping our recommendation does not hold water, and I look forward to further discussions on the matter. Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for those comments. This is a matter of constitutional principles with regard to the separation of powers. We know we have all had serious concerns about the very serious transfers of powers and the way in which powers will have to be exercised as a result of the withdrawal Bill and the developments around Brexit. We have all expressed the very serious concerns and recognised the real challenges and dangers that exist with regard to the exercise of Henry VIII powers.

The reason for bringing this statement today is very simple: this is a significant matter and the danger is if it was not challenged at this stage there would be a precedent established. So, my hope is that that principle of separation of powers is recognised and also that what did happen should not be a precedent in respect of any future matters, particularly when we come to the issue of the exercise of Henry VIII powers.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Chair of the committee.

6. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance: The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make his statement—Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you for agreeing to the making of this statement about developments in respect of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.

As Members will be aware, over recent weeks and months, intensive discussions have taken place aimed at resolving the disagreements between ourselves and the Scottish Government on the one hand and the UK Government on the other about clause 11 of the EU withdrawal Bill.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, UK Government Ministers are today laying amendments to the EU withdrawal Bill in the House of Lords that reflect an inter-governmental agreement that has also been published this morning. Taken together, these are sufficient to enable Welsh Ministers to recommend that the National Assembly gives its legislative consent to the Bill in a motion that we will debate next month. This should also pave the way for the UK Government to withdraw its reference of our Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill to the Supreme Court, and for the Government here to initiate a process to repeal that Bill, which, as Members will recall, was always intended as a backstop in the event that these negotiations did not reach a satisfactory outcome.

I would like to explain why the Government believes that the agreement that we have reached provides sufficient protection for our devolution settlement and allows us to support the UK Bill. In doing so, I want to acknowledge the significant contribution made by the Scottish Brexit Minister, Michael Russell, and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in the work we have carried out together on these matters.

Llywydd, there are a series of ways in which the agreement represents a major advance over the original proposals. Members will recall that, at its most fundamental, the disagreement was about the principle of powers currently exercised through a common European Union rulebook, and whether the UK Government had a unilateral right to decide where those powers should rest the other side of Brexit. The original clause 11 diverted all these powers to Westminster. We argued that powers in devolved areas belong here, in the National Assembly. Today’s amendment reverses the UK Government’s original position. It creates a default position in which powers over devolved policy lie with the National Assembly, as they have done since 1999. Now, we recognise that, without the rulebook provided by EU legislation, there is a need for UK-wide frameworks in specific areas to avoid disruption to the UK’s own internal market. Some of these UK frameworks will be underpinned by legislation and will be subject to a new, temporary, constraint, which simply ensures continuation of current common arrangements. Llywydd, this is clearly much more compatible with the reserved-powers model of devolution.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the second way in which today's agreement represents a significant advance is that it recognises that the Sewel convention will apply to secondary regulation-making powers—the powers that will be used to put in place these new temporary restrictions on competence. The UK Government will not normally put such regulations to Parliament for approval unless the devolved legislatures and administrations have given their consent. Moreover, in the event of a legislature withholding consent, Parliament will be asked to decide if the regulation should be made on the basis of even-handed information. That is to say, legislators will not only have to rely simply on the UK Government's own account, but they will be supplied with information provided independently by both the Welsh and the Scottish Governments.

Thirdly, Llywydd, the UK Government has always claimed that the constraints envisaged would be temporary, but there was nothing in the original Bill to substantiate this. The agreement now guarantees sunset clauses, which the amendments put on the face of the Bill.

Llywydd, the fourth way in which this agreement represents a major advance is, as you will know, that the original clause 11 was constructed such that primary legislation to put in place new UK-wide frameworks, for example, on agricultural support, could be pushed through Parliament without obtaining, or even asking for, the Assembly’s consent. The agreement specifically rules out this possibility.

In a fifth development, a significant concern about the original UK Government approach was that, whereas the current restriction on legislating in contradiction of EU law applies to all legislatures, including Parliament, there was no parallel restriction on Parliament legislating in respect of England to that imposed on the devolved legislatures by the original clause 11. Here too the agreement contains a firm commitment from the UK Government that it will not bring forward such legislation while frameworks are being negotiated.

Penultimately, Llywydd, by spelling out a more collaborative process of inter-governmental working to develop the regulations, the agreement also takes a first significant step towards an equitable approach to inter-governmental working of the sort that we argue should be characteristic of the post European Union United Kingdom.

Finally, in terms of the concurrent powers in clauses 7, 8 and 9 of the Bill for Ministers of the Crown to reach over to make correcting amendments to legislation within devolved competence, the agreement codifies assurances already given by Ministers in Parliament that such powers will not normally be used without the consent of devolved Ministers, providing a further layer of certainty.

Llywydd, the outcome is not perfect, of course. We would have preferred there to be no clause 11 and for each Government to trust each other’s undertakings not to legislate in areas where we agree UK-wide frameworks are needed until such frameworks have been agreed. We have repeatedly been clear we were prepared to give such assurances and to accept similar assurances from the other Governments. Others have sought stronger reassurances that no part of the United Kingdom, including England, could develop its own legislation in relation to these areas where a UK-wide framework is needed until such a framework had been negotiated and agreed, and this agreement provides that reassurance.

Of course, there are those who argue that it is unacceptable, even in extreme circumstances, that Parliament could act to impose constraints on devolved competence. But until a new constitutional settlement for the whole United Kingdom is negotiated—for which this Government has long argued—it is the constitutional reality that Parliament retains that role. This agreement, like the Sewel convention, does no more than recognise that fact while underlining the political imperative of Parliament acting on the basis of consent where devolved issues are at stake.

And, in practical terms, Llywydd, we accept that there has to be a backstop, a way of bringing disputes to a close that cannot be resolved by inter-governmental negotiation. Until and unless we agree an alternative to proceeding by consensus—and I remind Members that we put forward just such a proposal to achieve that way of acting in our 'Brexit and Devolution' paper last year—then that backstop will lie with Parliament.

Now, Llywydd, of course, I had hoped that the inter-governmental agreement could have been agreed by all three Governments, including our Scottish colleagues. We remain strongly committed to working closely with both the Scottish and the UK Governments to take forward further discussions on future frameworks and on the negotiations with the EU 27. I have made it clear that we will continue to work with both Governments right up to the last possible moment to see if any further helpful refinements to the current agreements can be made, and the JMC(EN) will meet again next week to track any such progress.

Llywydd, this deal represents very substantial progress from where all this began, and soundly defends the devolved interests of this National Assembly. It has meant compromise on both sides. That is the art of negotiation, and I believe the outcome is a mature agreement between Governments that is respectful of each other’s interests.

With this matter approaching resolution, we will be able to focus with renewed attention on the wider context of the UK’s future relationship with the European Union. Here too we will be advocating negotiation, realism and compromise. We want an agreement that protects Wales’s and the UK’s vital interests while showing respect and realism towards the interests of our European partners.

I commend the agreement and the amendments related to it to Members and look forward to bringing forward the legislative consent motion in due course.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Unlike the perhaps predictably Pavlovian response from certain quarters, may I start by thanking and congratulating you and David Lidington, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, for the measured, mature and pragmatic way you've conducted negotiations to secure agreement on clause 11—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I do need to hear Mark Isherwood, please. Carry on, Mark.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

—of the EU withdrawal Bill, reversing the current clause 11 so that returning EU powers in otherwise devolved areas will pass to the devolved Governments and legislatures? I also thank you for the inclusive way you've approached this with regard to myself and David Melding, and not only the evidence that you've consistently given to the external affairs committee, which I'm sure my colleagues will refer to, but the way that you've shared information confidentially with us that's helped us to work with you as matters move forward. I think we all hoped and believed that we could reach this point and share, I think, perhaps your, if not delight in all aspects of this, relief that we are now where we are.

We've long recognised that powers and competencies held at a EU level that apply to devolved matters will pass to this place on the point of exit or the date or time of exit, unless there was UK Government intervention, and we recognise that you have now simply agreed not to legislate in areas where UK-wide frameworks are needed until such frameworks have been agreed.

You have stated in the agreement, the inter-governmental agreement, in the EU Bill, on establishment of common frameworks, that there's a duty on UK Ministers to regularly report to the UK Parliament on progress on implementing common frameworks, removing temporary clause 11 regulations and powers, that the UK Minister will formally send such reports to the devolved Governments, which, in turn, will share these with their own legislatures. In what form will that sharing with the legislatures occur? How regularly does 'regularly' mean in terms of UK Ministers? Is that a time-specified regularity or is it something that will be triggered by particular events or circumstances agreed between yourselves?

You've indicated that you will continue to engage with the Scottish and UK Governments. I wonder if you could just expand a little bit more on how, particularly given the Scottish position—and I think, the will, certainly, of ourselves, that Scotland are ultimately also part of this agreement—how that will be progressed other than through the established JMC mechanism, unless that is all that currently exists.

There is a duty on UK Ministers to seek the agreement of the devolved legislatures each time they propose to make regulations to put a policy area into the clause 11 so-called freeze. Will these regulations first be subject to agreement with the Welsh Government prior to their presentation to the devolved legislatures? Or what mechanism will exist to seek to secure that agreement before we're asked to consider them? We understand that this will allow the UK Parliament to approve regulations creating the freeze if a devolved legislature's agreement is refused or not provided within 40 days, subject to UK Ministers making a statement to the UK Parliament explaining why they decided to make regulations despite the absence of a devolved legislature's agreement. What, in your discussions, have you considered with the UK Government to be the likelihood of that situation occurring? Or, more likely, what safety mechanisms have been put in place to minimise the risk of that situation being arrived at?

We're aware now of the sunset or time limit on the regulation-making powers: of two years after exit day if not brought to an end sooner, and, on the temporary clause regulations themselves, of five years after they come into force if not revoked earlier. How will the different approaches that could then challenge agreed frameworks be adjudicated and addressed? Because clearly, at that point, when all the powers come out of the freezer and return to this place, there's a possibility that different approaches might occur. A list of 24 areas has been consistently referred to as being in the so-called deep freeze. We understand it's still 24 areas, although there might still be discussion over a smaller number, possibly in relation to state aid. Again, if you could perhaps give us some indication of the position regarding state aid, because as far as we're concerned, there is logic to state aid being subject to UK framework agreement.

I had—if I can find it—a final question. You stated that this should pave the way for the UK Government to withdraw its reference of the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill, or the continuity Bill, to the Supreme Court, and for the Welsh Government here to initiate a process to repeal that Bill. When I questioned you on this in committee last week, you indicated a number of possible mechanisms that might be applied, but have you had any further thought about how and over what time frame you might seek to repeal that Bill? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for those detailed questions. I'll do my best to answer as many as I can. Mr Isherwood referred to a duty on UK Ministers to report regularly to the UK Parliament on progress in relation to frameworks. I believe that is likely to be on a three-monthly basis. We were keen on that because it puts real pressure into the system to reach agreements quickly on those matters. That report will be shared with the Assembly, as Mark Isherwood said.

I repeat my commitment to continuing to engage with the Scottish Government and the UK Government on outstanding matters, as the Scottish Government sees it, within this agreement. I spoke to Michael Russell, the Scottish Minister, last week and earlier this week. We commit ourselves to continued work on the issues that the Scottish Government has identified, and if anything can be done to improve the agreement in a way that would allow the Scottish Government to sign up to it and is acceptable to other parties, then we will work right up to the last minute to try to bring that about, and that's why we will go to the JMC again next week, with Scotland and the UK Government, to track progress on that.

Mark Isherwood asked me how likely I thought it was that there wouldn't be agreement in relation to the matters that are to be placed in the freezer. I think that is very unlikely, because, as Members will have seen in an annex to the inter-governmental agreement, we set out the 24 areas that all three Governments are agreed are potentially subject to framework agreements, and there are two other matters—state aid and food geographical indications—that remain the subject of continued discussion between the administrations.

On the Supreme Court, as you will see, this is a reciprocal agreement that we have come to. The Attorney-General, if and when a legislative consent motion is passed on the floor of this Assembly, will go to the Supreme Court and seek to withdraw the reference that has been made there. We will then come forward with proposals to the National Assembly that would lead to the proposition being placed on the floor here, but the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill, as it still is, would be repealed. You cannot repeal a Bill that has not yet received the Royal Assent. This Bill is yet to be in that position, and the timings of matters are therefore dependent on that course of action. But we will come forward once the Attorney-General has taken the actions he has committed to taking, and put that proposition before this National Assembly for its determination.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

I apologise, Cabinet Secretary, for missing your opening remarks, but I have read your statement in full.

'A significant achievement', 'A strong statement', 'Let's get on with making the most of the opportunities Brexit brings'. These are the statements from Alun Cairns, Ruth Davidson and Andrew R.T. Davies. Even the Prime Minister was thanking you today. Tories are clamouring over themselves to hail Labour's capitulation and their willingness to hand our Parliament's powers back to Westminster. Now, I believe that, by co-authoring 'Securing Wales' Future' with us and voting to support our continuity Bill, Labour in Wales had understood the threat to Wales and the undermining of our powers that Brexit brings. Our leverage has gone, leadership lost, and Parliament weakened. This is a Labour-Tory stitch-up like no other.

Llywydd, an answer to my letter, received this morning from the Cabinet Secretary, claimed that my tone was inflammatory. When he sells this Parliament and my country's democracy to Westminster, he can excuse my lack of conciliatory tone. The fact that he and all of the rest of you are not as incensed by this idea that this Assembly will be weakened by Westminster, as I am, shows where your priorities lie.

In his oral statement, the Cabinet Secretary said that he would prefer if clause 11 were not included. My first somewhat obvious first question is: why has he therefore made a deal with the Tories that allows for clause 11 to stand? Does the Cabinet Secretary believe, as he has previously said, that this will lead to fewer powers for the National Assembly, or does he agree with the Prime Minister that this deal means more powers for Wales? Can I phrase it in another way? How many, and what powers, are you handing back to Westminster?

Llywydd, I have many more questions, but I have one final crucial question, for now. In his letter to MPs—and as you have outlined in your letter to me, and in your statement today—the UK Parliament retains the authority to legislate over this Parliament if agreement is not reached on issues. Can the Cabinet Secretary explain why he is happy for Westminster to act on devolved issues without, as is stated by David Lidington, the devolved legislature's consent?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, thank you very much for those questions.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I continue to regret some of the language that has been used by the leader of Plaid Cymru. The progress that she describes as capitulation and as a stitch-up was described by the First Minister of Scotland, in her letter to the Prime Minister today, as 'substantial progress having been made'. That is what Michael Russell said to the Scottish Parliament yesterday, when he described the many—the many—advances that have been made as a result of the negotiations. Considering the many steps that we have gained through collaboration with our Scottish colleagues, to call what we have achieved a capitulation and a stitch-up is so far removed from the facts that the Member is a victim of her own hyperbole. I'm afraid, really, it bears no relation to what is in front of this National Assembly.

When clause 11 was inverted in the amendments put forward in the House of Lords earlier in proceedings, we said, Llywydd, that there were four unanswered questions. All of those questions are answered by this agreement. We said, 'How are powers to be placed in the freezer?' to use Mark Isherwood's analogy. Well, now we know that they will be placed in the freezer with the agreement of this National Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. We said, 'What use can be made of the powers while they are there? Because we are prevented from using those powers by legislation.' Now, English Ministers are prevented from using those powers as well. Then we said, 'How will those powers be taken out of the freezer?' And now we know that we have a process for agreeing the frameworks that moves us into an entirely new constitutional space, and I think represents a major step forward in achieving the sort of arrangements that we want to see for the future of the United Kingdom.

Now, of course it is true that this party is a devolutionist party. We therefore recognise that in the constitutional arrangements we currently have, if agreement cannot be secured, there is a need for a backstop arrangement to ensure that arrangements can go forward, and as things stand, that lies with the UK Parliament. We have put forward proposals that would amend that and place all of that on a far more equal footing, but that's because we believe that Wales's future is best secured in the United Kingdom—in a United Kingdom that operates effectively, that operates on the basis of parity, that operates on the basis of equal esteem. If you are a nationalist party, then it is absolutely proper that you are clear with people that you do not share that belief. You are not a devolutionist, you are a separatist. You simply believe that Wales should be entirely responsible for everything that goes on. It's a perfectly respectable position to take, but I think people are entitled not simply to have it respectably, but also to have it openly and in a way that is clear about what people believe. That's why, when the Member asks what powers are being retained at Westminster, I point her to the list agreed with the Scottish Government—the list that is appended to the inter-governmental agreement. It's there for everybody to see.

'What happens if agreement is not reached?' the Member asked. I believe that this agreement puts us clearly in a space where we are dedicated to achieving agreement. If you can't, somebody has to be able to take action to resolve matters that cannot be operated otherwise. Our proposals, and this agreement, take a step on that journey that would make that position resolved by all four component parts of the United Kingdom, coming together for that purpose.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Can I welcome the statement and commend the finance Secretary for the serious, reflective and unmelodramatic approach that he has brought to this negotiation, and, I think, has produced a conclusion that is acceptable to all those in this Assembly who believe in Wales being a part of the United Kingdom? I said at an early stage that the Welsh Government's approach to this by promoting a continuity Bill was not necessarily a position that would be expected for any member of UKIP to go along with, but I was prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a delaying tactic to avoid the consequences of the referendum, and I'm pleased that today's announcement fully justifies the confidence that I had in the Welsh Government in that task. Of course, I realise that those to the left of me on these benches will not agree with what I have to say on this, but I appreciate that it doesn't give Plaid Cymru all that they would like to see, and that there is a certain element of confidence that the UK Government will not resile from the promises of good behaviour—if I can put it that way—which are included as part of this agreement.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I do think that if, in due course, there were to be an attempt on the part of the UK Government to launch a power grab that that would provoke a constitutional crisis of a very serious kind, and in those circumstances even Members of UKIP, who believe in respecting the results of referenda, would be on the side of those who want to preserve the powers of this Assembly. I don't believe, therefore, that any United Kingdom Government would be likely to wander into that territory, even inadvertently.

I must say, I think it's rather bizarre that Plaid Cymru have taken the hyperbolic attitude, as the finance Secretary described it, to this, considering these are all powers at the moment over which we have no control whatsoever because they're vested in Brussels, in the hands of European Union Commissioners who we can't even name, let alone elect or dismiss, an in which institution, through the Council of Ministers, the United Kingdom has only 8.5 per cent of the votes. The European Parliament, which has very limited powers to effect legislation in the EU—in the European Parliament, Wales has only four MEPs out of 750-odd. So, there is a massive enhancement of democracy and prospect here, even if temporarily some of these areas of policy will remain in the hands of the United Kingdom Government rather than being devolved to the Assembly here in Wales.

There are three aspects of this agreement that I think are worth while pinpointing on this point, in particular the sunset clauses that are referred to in paragraph 7 of the inter-governmental agreement, which really establish that these powers are going to be returned to the Assembly in full measure in a relatively short time. Up to seven years is not a tremendously long time in the life of a legislature, even one as young as the National Assembly for Wales. We all accept that to have a working internal market in the United Kingdom there will have to be common frameworks and there will be a process of negotiation that will be ongoing, in which, although we don't ultimately have the power to legislate, the voice of the Welsh Government and the Welsh people will be heard in its negotiations with the United Kingdom Government.

The second point I'd like to draw attention to is in paragraph 8 of the inter-governmental agreement, the last sentence of which says that

'the powers will not be used to enact new policy in devolved areas',

by the United Kingdom Government, but that

'the primary purpose of using such powers will be administrative efficiency.'

So, what we're talking about here is just a working arrangement, the very opposite, actually, of the power grab that is said to be taking place.

The last point I'd like to make on this is on paragraph 9. It says that the National Assembly for Wales of course can amend directly applicable EU legislation in all the areas that are not covered by that part of the agreement that gives the power of legislation to the United Kingdom Government. So, we will be getting powers back, even in this period of seven years when we don't have complete control over these areas. So, this is a great advance in democracy in Wales.

I do hope, though, when we do have complete freedom, ultimately, that the existence of common frameworks will not be too sclerotic and that we will have the capacity to diverge, because I see one of the great advantages of returning powers from Brussels to Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast, as well as to Westminster, is that we can have a certain amount of legislative competition between the various parts of the United Kingdom. There are different ways in which we can work together, and we don't all have to do things in the same way and move together at the same speed. By a process of internal competition, we will discover which is the better process and which is the better form of legislation, and everybody in the United Kingdom, not least the people of Wales, will benefit from that process. So, I congratulate the finance Secretary on his achievement, and I think it bodes well for the future.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, thank you very much for those questions.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I'm just going to reply to a small of number of them. What would happen, the Member asked, if the UK Government were to resile from the inter-governmental agreement that we have reached with them? Well, he is right: it would then be a genuine constitutional crisis. I don't think that will happen, because I think I have to proceed on the basis that if a Minister in another Government, after many weeks and months of patient negotiation, comes to a conclusion on which they have to seek agreement from all of their UK colleagues to turn it into legislation and into that agreement, when they have gone to all of those efforts and it is codified between us, I think we have to assume that they mean what they say and that they will abide by it. There is no other possible basis on which inter-governmental relationships can be conducted.

He pointed to the sunset clause. I think frameworks will be released far faster from the freezer than the seven years that it sets out, and there's an additional reason in this agreement why that should be the case, because this agreement prevents English Ministers from making changes in English policy until those frameworks are agreed. There is every incentive now on all partners equally to come to those arrangements as fast as possible, and I believe we will see rapid progress in that area. Of course, that was the second point that the Member made himself: that the powers cannot be used to enact new policies. It simply preserves the status quo—the status quo in the European Union rule book—the European rule book that many Members in this Chamber took to the people of Wales and tried to persuade them that we should remain in perpetually, which I agreed with. All this does is to say that this position, which was supported, will remain the case—will remain the case and not change. It will remain the case—the position we argued for in the referendum will remain the case until we have an agreed way of change.

Finally, he asked about what happens to the areas that are not being kept in the freezer. Well, he was right on that: they come back here immediately. In the original clause 11, all of them were to be held at Westminster. Now, the bulk of them return here immediately, and we can get on with the business of devising policies and ways of doing things that suit Welsh circumstances.