Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 9 May 2018

363 contributions from 46 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And the first item on this afternoon's agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on how planning policy considers the local market in permitting housing developments? OAQ52146

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. Local planning authorities need to have a clear understanding of the factors influencing housing requirements in their area. Their latest local housing market assessment should form a key piece of their local development plans evidence base and cover the whole housing market by considering the requirement for both market and affordable housing.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

We are facing a shortage of housing, but, simultaneously, there are parts of Wales, including my constituency, where a substantial number of homes are second homes or holiday homes. The figure is one in 10 of all homes on the whole of Anglesey, and over 40 per cent of the homes in Rhosneigr, for example, are vacant or are holiday homes. I can refer you to a recent development, which would have been described as affordable housing, where a local councillor tells me that five of the six homes have been sold as holiday homes; there’s only one that has a full-time resident. I was also shown a former council house that is now a holiday home. So, what hope is there in such circumstances for our young people?

In St Ives in Cornwall, a decision was taken some years ago to introduce a planning system to place restrictions on the sale of new homes to people who could prove that that would be their main residence, and 83 per cent of people in a referendum supported the change. Now, there are measures under the new local development plan for Gwynedd and Anglesey that emulate that partly, but, whilst the premium on the land transaction tax on second homes and the higher level of council tax represent efforts to respond to this pressure on the housing market, how far are you, as Minister, willing to go in order to see us try and create a planning system that truly protects the interests of our communities in order to meet the real housing needs on a local level?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

That's not something I have considered in my discussions with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance around the LTT. I'm very aware of the Gwynedd and Anglesey LDP, which was obviously prepared in accordance with all the statutory procedures. It's something that I will certainly have a look at. You mentioned, I think, Cornwall, and I'd be very interested to have a look at what they've done.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

In 2015, despite the fact that 79 per cent of local authorities in Wales resisted amendments to TAN 1, your Government pursued a policy that fundamentally skews the way in which housing land supply and availability is calculated from past build rates to a residual method. This is having a profound effect across Wales. In Aberconwy, for instance, what was an 8.5-year supply has now diminished to 3.1 years. Yet, there is no corresponding population or demographic change to support this. As a result, our planning officers and, indeed, our elected members, find it extremely difficult to meet the obligations of these targets, therein allowing free reign for developers to submit applications on sites outside of the LDP and happy then to go on to appeal with your planning inspectorate. This policy will destroy our communities and makes an absolute mockery of the years and expense that local authorities have put into providing this Government with their copy LDP. Will you accept the implications of this guidance that you have implemented, and will you please reverse this policy at the first opportunity as part of your revision of planning policy going forward?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Member will be aware that I'm out to consultation on 'Planning Policy Wales' at the moment. It finishes a week on Friday, on the eighteenth. Aside of that, I have said that I will look at TAN 1, and I do expect to be making an announcement in the very near future. I hear your criticisms, and I've heard many criticisms of the methodology we use around TAN 1, but I'm still convinced that issues associated with non-delivery do lie in the plan-making process. So, I don't want to say anything today, but I am expecting advice from my officials, certainly this month, and I will be making an announcement.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

2. Will the Minister provide an update on the actions the Welsh Government is taking to improve air quality in South Wales West? OAQ52125

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I recently announced a range of measures to improve our air quality, including the development of a clean air plan for Wales, which will define actions to reduce air pollution in Wales, and a consultation on a clean air zone framework for Wales, and a new air quality in Wales website.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister. As you are no doubt aware, Port Talbot, in my region, is the most polluted town or city in the whole of the UK, with levels much higher than the next most polluted cities—nearly twice that of London. Unfortunately, one of the major sources of pollution is also the area's biggest employer. Minister, what can your Government do to ensure that the heavy industry we rely on for economic well-being does not put our health and well-being at risk?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I thank the Member for her question. Yes, Port Talbot did make the headlines last week, after the World Health Organization produced their findings. But, since publishing these findings, the WHO have actually reviewed the air pollution figures and accepted that a mistake has been made in the data it used, and it has apologised to Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council as well. And the WHO director of public health issued a statement apologising for the error, blaming an oversight, and immediate steps were taken by the WHO to rectify the figures on their website.

However, the Member does make very good points. We know that Port Talbot is an area—there's a combination of, or a mixture, of the industrial element and also nitrogen dioxide emissions from the M4. That's why, two weeks ago, we announced the measures we're bringing in to extend the 50 mph zone between junctions 41 and 42. But, you raised a really important point that it is a key employer not just to Port Talbot, but to the region as well. So, I announced in the statement two weeks ago that I will be updating the action plan for Port Talbot, for the steelworks, working with Tata, the council and National Resources Wales, to make sure that we take the steps necessary to tackle where those emissions are taking place, and make sure that we are in the best place to tackle them.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Minister, in response to that, I very much appreciate that you corrected the WHO's recommendation and the fact they got it wrong. But it still indicates that Port Talbot is still one of the worst in the UK. We still have problems with air pollution and air quality; we've had it for many years and it's going to be ongoing. And Caroline Jones is quite right to point out that heavy industry has an impact upon it. But, clearly, Welsh Government has actions it can take. It can work with industry to look at how we can reduce the levels of emissions, but also you have NRW being able to undertake some tasks to ensure that it therefore meets its requirements. How are you going to ensure NRW actually does its job properly, to ensure that it does measure the levels and it does take action against anyone who is actually breaching those levels?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Can I thank the Member for his question? Absolutely right that Natural Resources Wales regulates the Port Talbot steelworks, in accordance with the permit issued under the environmental permitting regime. You'll be aware that that permit imposes conditions on the operator. But actually, in terms of looking, when we update the action plan, at how we can make sure we best monitor and enforce these requirements, I think one of the things going forward, in terms of recognising the role that it has in job creation, the economic value of the steelworks as well, is looking at actually how our economic action plan and the economic contract can actually work with employers in terms of reducing emissions and tackling that in a way that doesn't undermine the economic value of the contribution but actually helps the health and well-being of people living near to the steelworks.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, you partly anticipated my question there, Cabinet Secretary, because one of the key projects of the Swansea bay city deal, of course, is the new steel science innovation centre, which is linked to Port Talbot and Tata. There's no need for me to repeat how much of an importance steel has, certainly in our local economy, but it's production, as you say, does remain connected, if you like, in the minds of people with the poor air quality there. So, have you had any early conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy, or even actually with people within the city deal board, about what part they might be able to play in helping improve air quality, whilst of course maintaining and hopefully improving upon those thousands of jobs as we go into the journey into the next generation of steel production?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

The Member makes a really important point there, in terms of actually how this—and I've raised this before, in talking about how we tackle air quality—is a priority across Government, which is why I am working with the economy Secretary—sorry I can't get my words out—to look at actually how we use those levers at our disposal, to not only support the economic future, the sustainability of our steel sector, which we know is so important, not just in terms of Port Talbot, but the other sites across Wales as well, and in terms of the supply chain, but to make sure that it's not to the detriment of the health and well-being of people who work there and live in the vicinity as well. I think, actually, that's why we need to look at, like I said before, the whole suite of issues there in terms of transport emissions and the supply chain to the steelworks too, to make sure that, working with NRW, with the council and other stakeholders, we monitor and see where exceedance is taking place and what is the best possible way to intervene at an early stage to make sure that that doesn't happen.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Following the Cabinet Secretary's forward-looking statement yesterday about life after Brexit and an agricultural policy tailor-made for Wales, I'd like to ask her whether she will continue to be open minded on the question of introducing a ban on the live export of animals. I know she's said this in the past, but, if there were to be such a ban, it would not extend to Northern Ireland, because we can't have agricultural policy making trade more difficult with other parts of the United Kingdom.

In this context, I don't know whether she's seen the latest edition of Y Tir, the publication of the Farmers Union of Wales, which is headlined 'Live exports ban would be short-sighted in the context of other uncertainties around Brexit'. Only 140 tonnes by weight of animals were exported live from Wales, as I understand, last year. So, it's a small problem and therefore not likely to cause any great difficulty for farmers. But the fact that the trade is small is not in itself an argument against introducing such a ban if it proves to be justifiable in the context of all the other considerations that would have to be borne in mind, and therefore, it wouldn't, on that ground, be ruled out by the Welsh Government.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you for the question. Certainly, I would prefer animals to be slaughtered as close as practical to their point of production, and I consider a trade in meat and meat products to be preferable to long-distance transport to slaughter. It's something that I'm looking at, along with DEFRA, and I have seen the article. We'll have to get that balance, but, obviously, animal health and welfare is very important to us too.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Of course, the interests of producers have to be given due weight in this argument, but short of introducing an outright ban, there are things that we could do to improve the current legislative regime once we're no longer confined within the carapace of EU regulation. We could make alterations to the length of time permitted to be in transit for animals, we could make alterations to the frequency of rest stops, and we could also reduce the number of animals in transit. So, these are all options that might be a halfway house but which would certainly improve the current situation, and illustrate that a greater flexibility in agricultural policy is one of the benefits that Brexit brings.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, as you know, the UK Government did a call for evidence and we'll have a look at what the responses are. I would do nothing without consultation. So, we'd then go out to consultation. I think it's really important that, along with DEFRA, we're very fully engaged in all the next steps so that we can determine our position. I absolutely agree with you about flexibility; it is one of the big opportunities of Brexit to be able to have that very Welsh-specific policy.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thirdly, I'd like to ask whether the Cabinet Secretary will consider improving public awareness of the meat that members of the public consume by improving accurate labelling of products, clearly stating country of origin, rearing conditions and, most importantly, methods of slaughter, because although we must respect different religious views on ritual slaughter, the public at large often have no idea that they're eating halal meat, for example, and they may not wish to if they had a free choice. In fast-food chains, and so on, this is not currently pointed out, and whilst I believe there should be a freedom on the part of people of different religious persuasions to eat according to their religious tenets, nevertheless, public awareness could reduce public concern if it were to be increased in this way.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think the labelling of food is becoming increasingly important because I think people are becoming much more interested in the subjects that you referred to, and, again, it's a conversation and a discussion that we're having not just at official level, but also at ministerial level in our quadrilaterals, and, again, it's another opportunity with Brexit to make sure that we get that right. I'm very keen to have the Welsh dragon and brand Wales on any food that originates from Wales, so I think, again, there's a lot more that we can do. I think the public are becoming more aware, and certainly when you go to the agricultural shows, or to any food missions and fairs, people certainly want to be aware of what they are purchasing.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. May I ask the Minister—? I was part of the visit of the Climate Change, Energy and Rural Affairs Committee to Westminster last week, and had the opportunity to ask Michael Gove directly about the new environmental body that the UK Government has promised to establish to maintain EU and other environmental standards if we leave the EU. So, what discussions have you had with Michael Gove about this proposed body and what guarantees can you give the Assembly that it will uphold our high environmental standards here, including, of course, those passed recently in our own environment Act?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

The Member makes a very important point in terms of upholding our strong environmental principles in Wales. This has been the subject of a number of deep dives and quadrilaterals amongst Ministers, the Cabinet Secretary and officials. We have repeatedly made the case for new institutional arrangements and agreed frameworks to ensure that the UK can function effectively after our exit from the EU.

I think the point that you make that's really important in terms of the framework is that we already have a number of legislative tools in place with our environment Act and also the well-being of future generations Act, which other administrations may not have at this point. So, we are working with Whitehall and the Scottish Government to identify where common agreed UK approaches will be useful and to explore how such frameworks would operate, and we will be considering the analysis carefully as part of this.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Minister for what she's explained so far, but the difficulty is, of course, that the Welsh Government has signed away its rights to protect the Welsh environment in the inter-governmental deal. You talk of UK frameworks—[Interruption.] It's not this Assembly, it's not the Welsh Government, it's Michael Gove who will be deciding what EU regulations will be transferred or not in the UK framework, and the UK Parliament can change EU standards here in Wales whether we like it or not, whether we consent or not.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

You really don't understand it, do you?

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

You don't understand it and you used to be an environment Minister, and you haven't a clue what's being done to Wales. Haven't a clue. So, let me ask the current Minister, rather than the previous one who made such a success of Natural Resources Wales, whether she is comfortable that Michael Gove has this power. What written assurances does she have that the UK Government will not use the EU withdrawal Bill to rewrite Welsh legislation on the environment?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I'm glad you've finished having an argument with the former Minister and have turned your question to me now. It will not surprise you to hear me say that I fundamentally disagree with the assertions you just made there. However, we do have a quadrilateral coming up on Monday, which the Cabinet Secretary and myself will be attending, and this is something that will be high on the agenda at that meeting.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

What written assurances have you had?

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I didn't hear any mention of a written assurance. Today is Europe Day. We're still in the European Union and we still have this access to environmental justice while we remain in the European Union. I understand that the Minister and the Welsh Government don't agree with Plaid Cymru or other people's analysis—because it's not just Plaid Cymru saying this—I understand that. But I asked you what written assurances you had that this would not take place. That's what I'm asking for here. Because when we tried to change the continuity Bill with amendments to write in the European legislation into our own legislation, your leader of the house told us that both the future generations Act and the environment Act are

'part of the important overarching framework for environmental protection in Wales.'

So, now, the Institute for Government has recommended that any new environmental watchdog would be more robust if it was given a four-nation remit designed and owned jointly by the four nations, and, in turn, co-funded by the four legislatures rather than just the UK Parliament. So, I ask again: what assurances have you had from Michael Gove that the work of the new environmental body will not trespass on Welsh environmental legislation, and, in particular, that it will not interfere with the work of the future generations commissioner? And are you, indeed, seeking to co-own and co-fund this new environmental body?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Can I thank the Member for his final question? We have an inter-governmental agreement in place on this, and this is something that we will be further pressing the case on, in terms of protecting the legislation that we have in place and that we are proud to have led the way on and have in place in Wales, in our quadrilateral on Monday.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, last October, the Welsh Government announced its refreshed bovine tuberculosis eradication programme. Given that it's been seven months since that launch, can you provide an update on the progress made in making Wales a TB-free country and on the effectiveness of the Welsh Government's policy? Can you also tell us how many infected badgers have been removed since the start of the programme?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You'll remember, Paul Davies, that when I came to the Chamber regarding the refreshed TB eradication programme I said I would give an annual statement on progress, and I will be doing that at the appropriate time later this year. I can't give you the number of infected badgers that have been removed, but I can write to you on that matter.FootnoteLink

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

When you first made that announcement back in October, one of the Welsh Government's longer term goals, according to the Wales TB eradication programme delivery plan, was the development of an informed purchasing scheme. At the time, you made it absolutely clear that this was something the Welsh Government was very keen to press ahead with. Therefore, can you confirm if this is still on the Welsh Government's agenda? If so, could you tell us exactly what work your officials have undertaken to develop a compulsory scheme and when that scheme is likely to be introduced?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, it is certainly something that we are bringing forward and that officials are working on. You'll be aware that I gave funding to ensure that we could bring in a voluntary scheme whilst we were working to have a compulsory scheme, and again, I will be able to inform Members on this when I do the annual statement.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Now, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, the UK's departure from the European Union could present significant challenges for Wales's agricultural industry, and it's crucial that the Welsh Government is tackling bovine TB in Welsh cattle, given the implications that this could have on trading with other countries post Brexit. Therefore, can you tell us what discussions the Welsh Government has already had with its European counterparts regarding post-Brexit trade and can you provide cast-iron guarantees to cattle farmers today that their businesses will not be adversely affected, post Brexit, by the Welsh Government's approach to actually tackling bovine TB?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can certainly give that assurance. Over the last few years, we've made real progress towards eradicating TB in Wales. You know the number of new incidents has fallen by over 40 per cent since it was at its peak back in 2009, and we now have 95 per cent of herds in Wales TB free. So, I don't want people to think this is something that's got worse; it really hasn't. We've made huge progress in eradicating TB.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the development of agricultural land in South Wales West? OAQ52142

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I am currently consulting on a revised version of 'Planning Policy Wales'. Consultation on this important national land-use policy document continues until 18 May. The revised version of 'Planning Policy Wales' continues to state that agricultural land of grades 1, 2 and 3a are the best and most versatile and should be conserved as a finite resources for the future.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much. That's an interesting answer. You said in your statement yesterday that you want to see land managers kept on the land and that food production remains vital to the Welsh economy, but when I wrote to you asking for you to rule out adopting a Welsh version of Labour's proposed English sovereign land trust, which proposed granting powers to Government to compulsorily purchase agricultural land for housing at potentially reduced prices, you refused to rule that out. So, do you stand by your statement in that response that this land-grab proposal is a tool for the redistribution of land value, as you wrote in March, or will you now rule out those plans, bearing in mind your ambitions that you expressed in yesterday's statement?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I know I sent the Member a detailed response on this issue, and I don't have anything further to add to that. One of the things I have done—I launched it at the winter fair back in November—is our new agricultural maps, because I think it's very important that, when plans go before local authorities, they're aware of where the best agricultural land is. So I'm very pleased that those maps are now available—we're the only country in the UK that has them—to assist local authorities in that way.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on progress towards making the Swansea Bay city region an energy self-sufficient area? OAQ52123

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Our green growth and local energy services have supported the public sector and community enterprises to develop energy efficiency and renewable energy schemes in the Swansea bay city region. I support this work and the valuable contribution it will provide to the aims of the city region deal.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response? Last week I attended an event run by the Institute of Welsh Affairs regarding the harnessing of renewable energy in the Swansea bay city region. I want to stress again the importance of the tidal lagoon to the region, and ask what support the Welsh Government is giving to improving battery storage, because that really is the answer when we're generating electricity at times when there's not the need for it, and then we haven't got it available when there is the need for it. If we are going to get renewables to work, we need to ensure that both energy generated by the tidal lagoon, and, more specifically, energy generated by solar and by wind turbines, can be stored in such a way that it becomes available perhaps several months later when it's needed. But that needs improved battery technology. So, the question, again, is: what is the Welsh Government doing to support improved battery technology?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you for that question. Obviously, as I have responsibility for planning and marine licensing, I can't comment on the specific project, but storage is a matter for the developer of any commercial energy project to consider. We know that we're going to need storage of all types to manage more distributed and decarbonised energy systems. Time shifting electricity to match generation with demand is also very important. We also know that battery technology is quite expensive, so we do expect to see a reduction in price in future, but obviously, looking at the cost of installing enough storage to provide a continuous electricity supply could add significantly to the capital cost of a project. I am aware of the event that you attended last week, and I'm looking forward very much to seeing the results of the other work packages that were discussed there, and the delivery plan.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Obviously, the delivery of the tidal lagoon is clearly an important element in this whole jigsaw, and we still want to see that. I suppose we won't even mind if the thing is called 'Prince of Wales tidal lagoon', as long as we get a tidal lagoon. By the way, equally important—[Interruption.] Equally important are the smaller energy projects, so in terms of ownership with the smaller energy projects, to what extent are you investigating the potential for Welsh Government and local authority ownership models for future projects? And do you agree that residents within the region should gain financially from the huge natural resource that exists in south-west Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Dai Lloyd will know that the Welsh Government is very supportive, in principle, of the economic benefits of tidal lagoons, and the opportunities that I think we have for a growing, vibrant, marine industry. We are still awaiting a response from the UK Government. I think the last person to write from the Welsh Government was the First Minister, and we're still awaiting a response. I met with Claire Perry, the Minister of State in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, a couple of months ago, and pressed her also on the need to have a response as soon as possible.

I think you raise a really important point about smaller energy projects. Last week, I was in Pennal, and I visited a farm where there was a hydro scheme, and I think I mentioned it yesterday in my statement. It was one of the best projects I've seen, and I think it's really important that we do work with communities. We do have community energy projects, and you'll be aware the Welsh Government has put significant funding into these projects. I think, since I've been in post, for two years, we've had about 14 come to fruition.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, I'm more than happy to call it the 'Lesley Griffiths lagoon', particularly in this year of 100 years since partial suffrage, as long as we get the thing. I just want to go back to Mike's question about batteries because, of course, a big, big chunk of the city deal is the 'houses as power stations' programme. Mike mentioned solar panels and wind turbines, but I don't think we can overlook, as well, things like ground heat pumps and air heat pumps, which actually can be quite easily retrofitted to properties in a way that, perhaps, some of the stuff that we've got at the moment can't.

I wonder if you can tell me whether programmes such as Nest and Arbed have actually contributed to a growth in the number of ground and air pumps, and whether—and we're talking about the 'homes as power stations' idea—they could be included a bit more visibly, perhaps, in the pitch for that. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you, Suzy Davies. I'm sure my mother would agree with you on your first point.

I can't give you an exact number, but I'm happy to write to you.FootnoteLink You'll be aware that we're just procuring the next stage of Arbed, which has been very successful in improving energy efficiency in some of our worst homes. So, I’d be very happy to write on the issue of ground heat pumps and the number we’ve used.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 5 is withdrawn. Question 6—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government investment in coastal defences and flood alleviation schemes in the Vale of Glamorgan? OAQ52132

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Over the life of this Government, we have invested over £5.7 million in flood and coastal works in the Vale of Glamorgan. In addition, over £4.5 million has been allocated in this year's programme to complete works at Boverton and Coldbrook and progress the Llanmaes, Cadoxton and Corntown schemes.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Minister. It is important to acknowledge the Welsh Government funding—substantial Welsh Government funding—for vital flood defences in Boverton and Llantwit Major. Following flooding of this community as recently as 2016, affecting homes and businesses, can you confirm the timelines for the urgent works to be carried out in Llanmaes village and Cadoxton in Barry, funded by the Welsh Government and managed by the Vale of Glamorgan Council?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I thank the Member for her follow-up question. In terms of the Llanmaes flood alleviation scheme, design work is continuing and expected to be completed later this year, with construction to commence shortly after. Improvements to drainage in the village to increase capacity and a series of small flood storage areas above the village—. Property-level protection is offered to properties at risk, and nine have taken up this offer, and that will be installed shortly. A large flood storage area will also be constructed downstream of the village of Cadoxton. So, there are two schemes in Cadoxton: the tidal work scheme and the flood alleviation scheme. The tidal work scheme is expected to be complete by the end of the year, and in the flood alleviation scheme, Natural Resources Wales are currently investigating several options, which have been assessed to reduce flood risk to properties in the village of Dinas Powys both now and in the future. This could include upstream storage, natural flood management and the installation of floodwalls and relief culverts in the town. But I’m happy to write to the Member with further details if she so wishes.FootnoteLink

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, obviously bringing together flood alleviation schemes relies on agencies working very closely together—local authorities and NRW, in particular, who are, obviously, the advisers on many of these projects. You’ll be aware that staff surveys have indicated a certain amount of unrest in NRW. Since you've become Minister, what is your assessment of the ability of NRW to work with partners in the Vale of Glamorgan to develop flood alleviation schemes that meet the community's concerns that have been outstanding for some considerable time?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I thank the Member for his question. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on the staff survey; that’s a matter for NRW. We've had a new chief executive who has come into place recently, and I've had regular meetings with NRW. In terms of working with the local community and stakeholders, I have had meetings previously with NRW when we have discussed communication and the need to engage and work closely within communities and communicate, particularly on issues around flood risk, which can be quite a bit complicated, to get that message across, and on how things are evidenced and analysed. So, I encourage NRW to maintain that effective and ongoing engagement with the local community, and it's something that is an outstanding item in terms of my regular meetings with both the chief executive and the chair of NRW.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

7. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of how developments in artificial intelligence can help rural Wales? OAQ52114

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Technological change, including artificial intelligence, can enable shared prosperity across Wales, building inclusive communities, and support our plans for regional economic development. The Welsh Government has recently launched a review into digital innovation, which will take a broad assessment of advancements in automation, robotics, artificial intelligence, the internet of things and big data.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you very much. I'd be grateful if you could confirm whether precision agriculture would specifically fall within the remit of that review. The Assembly's economy committee this morning has been holding hearings on the subject, and has heard how precision agriculture is already helping improve productivity on farms, as well as reducing environmental impacts. We were told very clearly that data is now seen as an agricultural product. But the support available from the Welsh Government is fragmented and inflexible. Farming Connect, for example, can only be used to fund 10 soil tests, which isn't enough, and is only available to fund basic GPS. It's been some time now since the National Assembly voted to ask the Welsh Government to develop a strategy for precision agriculture, so that we see this not just as a farming issue, but as an issue for Wales's resilience, to create an industry—so, rather than importing the robots from China and the software from America and exporting our data, seeing how we can harness this for the good of Wales. I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could outline a timeline of when we can expect that strategy to be developed.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think it's really important that precision farming isn't considered in isolation. It does need to be part of a broader agriculture and land use strategy post Brexit, and it's certainly something that I want to see when I go out to consultation on the future of land management, following my statement yesterday. I think precision agriculture needs to be embedded in every aspect of farming, and that's through use of better genetics, targeting inputs use, and gathering and using data.

You will be aware that, across the Government, particularly in innovation and information and communications technology leads, we're working with academic institutions—and my colleague Julie James is leading on that—because we are looking at further work that's going to be relevant to precision agriculture. We're also promoting it, as you say, through Farming Connect initiatives, and that is another area that we can look at to expand the schemes that we have in it. I'm also looking at part funding of technology through the farm business grant. But, again, when we look at the funding that we have post Brexit, we can see if there are other schemes that we can bring forward also.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, in response to an individual Members' debate on this issue in November 2016, you said, and I quote:

'The Welsh Government is working closely with our stakeholders and delivery bodies to maximise agri-tech research income into Wales.'

In light of these comments, can you tell us how successful the Welsh Government has been to date, and can you also give us an indication of how much agri-tech research income Wales has received to date?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can't give the Member that figure at the present time, but, again, I would be very happy to write to you with that figure.FootnoteLink

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the implementation of the Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2014? OAQ52135

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The regulations introduce stricter criteria for licensed breeders and have helped enforce our commitment to ensuring high welfare standards. We work with local authorities to monitor implementation of the regulations, and last year completed a data capture exercise on the enforcement of the staff-to-job ratio element.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. Concerns are raised with me very frequently about the extent to which brazen and discriminatory puppy breeding is still ongoing in Wales. The regulations provide a means for responsible breeders to be registered, and for prosecutions to be undertaken against those who do not comply and risk the welfare of the animals in their care. In the recent prosecution of a lady from the Vale of Glamorgan—she claimed to be selling a particular breed but was, in fact, acting as a front for puppy farming. Of course, social media is a very useful vehicle for this industry to flourish. In this instance, she was selling more than 100 puppies, having advertised 266. The general health and animal welfare problems experienced by these dogs and puppies is absolute cruelty, yet only 38 prosecutions took place across Wales in 2015-16 under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. Cabinet Secretary, what steps can you take to highlight this issue? More importantly, will you somehow look to ban this cruel and ruthless money making at the expense of these vulnerable animals?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. This is an area where I'm working very closely with the RSPCA to ensure that the number of prosecutions is as high as possible when these cases are found. I am looking to bring forward a statement on animal welfare before the summer recess, so I will be able to say more on that issue then.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

As has been exemplified by my colleague Simon Thomas earlier, the Welsh Government recently announced that it would allow Westminster powers to legislate in a number of areas returning from Brussels, one of which was certain powers relating to animal welfare. So, I was wondering whether you could clarify how you think that could impact upon planned legislation. I was wondering if you could plan speeding up any work that you're doing currently on animal abuse, cruelty and protection legislation, so that there is no uncertainty about what your capacity is in the future. Although I understand that the task and finish group on the animal abuse register is set to report in the coming months, I would not want it to be as long-winded as the constant delays to the wild animals in circuses. So, I would put an appeal out that we see progress on this before any legislative changes come about by other forces.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. As we don't agree with your view on the issue, it won't have any impact on legislation or policy. I think we tweeted one another around the animal abuse register, and it will be reporting to me in July.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

9. What consideration has been given by the Cabinet Secretary to the call for an environmental impact assessment for the Barry biomass incinerator? OAQ52131

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I want to ensure our actions as a Government uphold our international obligations in respect of environmental impact assessments. Officials are giving careful consideration to compliance with the EIA directive, taking account of the representations of the developer and those of the Docks Incinerator Action Group and others.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Minister. You will be aware, of course, of the widespread public and political concern regarding the opening of the Barry incinerator, which had adverse impacts on the local population during its pre-commissioning phase. We also await the review of permitting by the future generations commissioner as well. It is important that we have a timeline on your decision, and would you agree with me that it's inappropriate that the company should be claiming that the biomass incinerator will be opening by the end of this year when we still haven't had your decision about the environmental impact assessment?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I thank the Member for her question. I know it's something that she's raised over a number of years, and regularly with me since coming into post. I fully understand the frustration of both the Member and the residents of Barry with the time it's taken to reach a final decision on whether an EIA is required for the Biomass UK No. 2 project. The time is unfortunately necessary as matters raised by interested parties are complex, and we need to be sure that the final decision complies with the law and ensures that the environment is properly protected.

Just to add in terms of—. Whilst I can comment on the intention of the developer to start operating the plant by the end of the year, enforcement is a matter for the local planning authority. But such matters could come before Welsh Ministers on appeal. Obviously, the Vale of Glamorgan planning department are aware that the Welsh Ministers are considering the potential need for an EIA in respect of the latest planning application, and have indicated to officials that they will not determine the application until a final decision is made.

Just briefly, you raised the future generations commissioner's look at the review of permitting, and I can say that the project's progressing well. There have been a number of meetings, both with Natural Resources Wales and Welsh Government officials, and I look forward to any recommendations about how we apply the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to the development of complex and technical policy areas such as environmental permitting.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, you are most probably aware that the Vale of Glamorgan Council at full council in February supported a motion proposed by Councillor Vincent Bailey to make sure that there was an environmental impact assessment undertaken. And I do declare an interest in that that councillor does work for me—[Laughter.]—just to put it on the record. But it is a statement of fact that parties from across the chamber in the Vale of Glamorgan Council voted for this action to be taken. You in previous questioning sessions have indicated that you are minded to have an environmental impact assessment. The constituency Member indicated that some timeline and understanding of when that decision might be taken would be greatly appreciated by all concerned in this matter. Can you at least give us a timeline that you are working to as a Minister to make that decision? I appreciate you have to take consultations and views on board from a broad spectrum of stakeholders here, but you must now, at this stage in the process, have an idea when you will be in a position to make that decision.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I thank the Member for his contribution there. I'd refer back to what I said to the constituency Member in terms of time frame. I do understand why this is causing so much concern and frustration, both for representatives and for people in the local community. But we are actively currently considering the representation made, and we do not intend to set a deadline for the final decision on EIA to be made, because the decision requires careful and full consideration of all the issues to withstand legal challenge. The case raises complex issues about how the need for EIA to accompany applications to amend conditions, which are taking some time to work through. By taking this time to fully work through the issues, I believe we will be issuing clearer guidance on EIA procedures that will benefit all those working with the planning system. So, it's essential to ensure that the decision complies with the law, so that it is fair to the developer, but more importantly, ensures the environment and the local community are properly protected.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

There are real lessons for all of Wales in what's happened in Barry. It is frankly astonishing that such a major project in such a built-up area with such potential health effects could have got a go-ahead, or got so far, without an environmental impact assessment being done. I'm grateful for the letter I received from you this morning around this, which, more or less, repeats what you've just told the Chamber. Well, that's fine, but what I do want to understand, because there are lots of concerns in other parts of Wales that are facing similar biomass plant applications at the moment, is if it does transpire that this whole process should have had environmental impact assessment work done a lot earlier, will you ensure that that is done, even though the process has gone a considerable way along the route? And bearing in mind here what does sometimes happen in planning terms, in that people can do retrospective planning applications or they can disallow what should have happened because they say things have gone too far, if it does turn out, under the EU directive—which we still have, of course—that this project, with all the additions and changes that have been done to it, should have been done under the directive that requires environmental impact assessments, will that happen regardless of the fact that the project has got, as Jane Hutt mentioned, to a stage where the developers are already giving dates for it to begin?

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

I thank the Member and I'm glad that you received the letter following your question in business questions in Plenary last week and I hope that helped update you on where we are.

As I said to the Member previously, I'm unable to comment on the intention of the developer to start operating the plant by the end of the year, but the Vale of Glamorgan planning department are aware that we are considering the need for an EIA in respect of the application and I've indicated to officials that they will not determine the application until a final decision is made. I'm well aware that a number of wider issues have been raised, not just within this instance, but in terms of how we operate EIA and environmental permitting. So, I am very keen to work closely with officials, with NRW and with the future generations commissioner to see how we can identify how we can apply in the future, particularly within the context of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, to these, what are often complex and technical policy areas and ensure that they meet our environmental obligations.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister and Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next questions are for the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, and the first question is from Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on outsourcing services in the public sector? OAQ52116

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The Welsh Government believes public services are best delivered by engaged and supported public servants who are fairly paid for the essential work that they do. The Government also recognises the important role of the third sector and businesses in supporting public service delivery to secure the best outcomes for citizens.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response, because an increasing number of local authorities in Wales have outsourced services to the private sector—look at the way in which the environmental enforcement service has been outsourced in many parts of Wales. Kingdom is the most prominent company in north Wales, and programmes such as Panorama and Y Byd ar Bedwar have outlined how the internal targets of that company drive their efforts to generate the greatest possible profit at the expense of the residents of Wales. Now, bearing in mind that the First Minister told us here in January that he and his Government are entirely opposed to privatisation, and that you yourself have stood up in the Labour conference some months ago, saying that there was no privatisation in Wales, are you comfortable with the growth that we’re seeing in private providers within the public sector across Wales? And, if you’re not, then what are you doing to encourage and support local authorities to develop alternative solutions?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Llywydd, I believe that everybody is very pleased that the Member for North Wales remembers the address I gave to the Labour Party conference in Brighton. I was clear there, and I will be clear here today, too, that the way we deliver our services here is by ensuring the best deal for citizens, and also, of course, for the public workers themselves. It is a matter for the authorities themselves how they set about delivering those services, but I would ensure that—. We have a code of practice on workforce matters, the two-tier code, and he is aware that the officials carry out a national assessment across Wales on an annual basis to ensure that public workers and their rights are protected. I’d be very happy to publish the outcome, the results of those assessments, if the Member is not aware of them.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I'd like to thank Llyr Gruffydd for raising this again in the Senedd, because I was actually one of the first constituencies that saw hundreds of my constituents, particularly the more elderly in our population, targeted in this way by these private enforcers. I'm not against outsourcing to the private sector where local authorities can actually make savings and the service delivery is of a high quality. However, in this instance, we have got severe problems. Ten thousand have taken to signing a social media page. There is a huge campaign against this. I know of MPs and other AMs across north Wales where this is a huge issue.

I take a problem, Cabinet Secretary, with your response. You keep saying it's up to each local authority how they do things. I know that in other parts of the United Kingdom, if there were such schemes in place that were penalising people in the way that this is happening, their national Governments would get involved and actually send some guidance across the line. I would ask you if you would be so kind as to write to local authorities and just point out, where they are outsourcing to the private sector, that you as the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services expect due diligence, transparency, financial probity and absolute accountability with those services that are provided. It is unfair if our residents, our visitors, our elderly, if they are being penalised in some way because local authorities are outsourcing simply because they can't make ends meet given your financial settlement.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, the Member was doing quite well up until that last sentence. She represents a political party, of course, that is almost removing the rate support grant from all local authorities in England, and in the last seven years has seen the spending power of local authorities in England fall by 49 per cent. So, I suspect she's on very, very thin ice there. However, let us take her at her word. We all welcome a sinner that repents. I join her in welcoming the fact that wholesale privatisation is not the way for local or public services to be delivered. I'm glad she's come and joined us in supporting that.

But, let me say this, where there are issues with the delivery of services, they are rightly taken up by Members and others with the local authority concerned. It is not right or proper that we seek to sustain and support local democracy whilst at the same time seeking to instruct local authorities how they should be carrying out their duties and how they should be delivering those services. That's not the way that you strengthen and empower local authorities. The Conservatives put their case to the people of England last week, and I think in most cases they were roundly defeated.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I share the concerns about outsourcing to the private sector, but would the Cabinet Secretary agree that there is sometimes a case for public services to be delivered in the voluntary sector? For example, in children's services, the voluntary sector is often able to get much closer to families than staff in the public services. So, would he agree that there is a case for some services to be outsourced to the voluntary sector?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I will, very much so. I think the Member for Cardiff North is absolutely right in the basis of her question and the assumptions that she makes. I do welcome the different expertise that the voluntary sector can offer and the benefits that can be accrued from working in such an open way. I would also say to her that, as a member of the Co-operative Party myself, I would like to see co-operative solutions reviewed and delivered wherever that is possible as well. The key issue here is that public services should remain and should be delivered within the public ethos, with an ethos of public service, of high quality, and recognising and valuing the workforce that delivers those services. All of those matters are hugely important to all of us, and the democratic control of those services should underpin how we take forward different models of public service delivery.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2 [OAQ52127] was withdrawn. Question 3, David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

3. How does the Cabinet Secretary intend to assess whether a meaningful discussion on justice policy has been held with the UK Government, following the written statement on 6 April 2018? OAQ52140

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, I have had some conversations with justice Ministers in the UK Government on their vision for justice services. I've also taken time to ask my officials to continue to have those conversations with officials in the Ministry of Justice.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I think I can thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer. [Laughter.]

Cabinet Secretary, the residents of Aberavon welcomed the statement from the Welsh Government on 6 April, which stated the clear position that any new prison development, including that at Baglan Moors, was effectively put on hold until meaningful discussions take place. I also welcome the intent to seek a criminal justice system for Wales that works for Wales and Welsh citizens, particularly as we have seen a complete meltdown of the justice system and the penal system in England and across the UK totally.

However, being put on hold does not remove the possibility of the proposal returning and a prison being built on that land, as meaningful discussions could occur at any time—and, as you've already said, you've had some discussions. What my constituents seek is something that will give them reassurance for their future, and returns their confidence in the political system. All they want from the Welsh Government is a simple answer to a simple question: will the Welsh Government give assurances that the land at Baglan Moors will not be used for the development of a new prison, irrespective of the outcome of these meaningful discussions?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The Member's written to me on these matters and I've replied to him. I am absolutely clear, and I hope I was clear when I met you to discuss these matters at the end of last month, that as far as this Government is concerned, we will not be giving consent for that land to be sold to construct a superprison on Baglan Moors. We've been very, very clear on that, and I repeat that clarity this afternoon. What I want to see is a wholly different approach to justice, and I hope that both the Secretary of State and Ministers in the Ministry of Justice in the United Kingdom Government will engage with us in a more meaningful way to ensure that we can have a holistic approach to the criminal justice system in Wales, where Governments can work together for the benefit of people in Wales, and we can move away from the current structures that are not fit for purpose. The settlement we have, in my view, for the devolution of criminal justice is not one that is either fit for purpose or works, or that delivers the criminal justice system that we wish to have in Wales.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for the answers you've given. I just wanted to clarify whether you meant that Baglan Moors would be taken off any list that you do have. I think that's where the confusion lies. Regardless of meaningful discussion, can you just confirm for the record that even if, for example—not that I'd be happy with it—you did put up a list that would suggest that other areas of south Wales should be considered, that you would not then include Baglan Moors on that list? I understand you met with an AM, David Rees, and other councillors from Port Talbot, where you did say in that meeting, as I understand it, although I wasn't present to be able to quote from it, that you would therefore take Baglan Moors off that list. But in the subsequent letter to said councillor, you didn't put that into writing. So, if you weren't able to do it there, can you do it here today, just so we have clarity of purpose as to where we take the campaign, if nothing else?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I understand the point that the Member seeks to make and her wish for clarity. I'd hoped that I'd given that clarity. This Government will not be taking forward the development that has been proposed. Well, we haven't actually received a proposal from the Ministry of Justice on it, I'm aware of that, for Baglan Moors. We do not support the development of a superprison in Baglan Moors or anywhere else in south Wales, or north Wales, or mid Wales, or west Wales. What we want to see is a different sort of justice policy. I had anticipated some support from benches opposite for an approach to criminal justice that is rooted in locality, in family, in rehabilitation, in training, in support, in community. And I would have hoped that all politicians, whatever their colours in this Chamber, would support us in seeking to take forward such an approach to criminal justice policy.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, you went around the whole of Wales saying that the Government, as currently constructed, certainly will not be giving permissions for any—well, you said superprisons, but I assume you're talking about any form of prisons. [Interruption.] That isn't the case? So, can you clarify exactly what permissions or what engagement you will have over what would be built in Wales? Because, as I understood your previous answer to the Member for Plaid Cymru, you indicated that you would not give permission for prisons across Wales. And you yourself talked of other regions in Wales other than Baglan. So, can you be crystal clear as to what the Welsh Government will and will not support when it comes to proposals around the new prisons estate?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

We were very, very clear in my—[Interruption.] I have here—. I'm going to read—[Interruption.] I'm going to read—[Interruption.] I'm going to read—. I'm going to read the written statement I made in April. Let me say this: what I said then, and what I'll say again this afternoon, is that it is in the interests of neither the Welsh Government nor the people of Wales to see further prison development in Wales until we have a policy, a criminal justice policy, which is agreed with the Ministry of Justice. I am not going to stand here and say that we do not want to see any development of secure accommodation in this country. That is simply not the case. And it would be wrong for me to either say that this afternoon or to make any commitments on that, because what we want to see is the removal of prisons—[Interruption.] Well, perhaps the Member doesn't wish to listen; perhaps that's why she's confused. We do not want to see—[Interruption.] We do not want to see—[Interruption.] We do not want to see people in the old Victorian prisons. We want a development of the prison and the secure estate in Wales. We want to develop specific facilities for female offenders. We want specific facilities for youth offenders. We want to see an investment in rehabilitation. We want to see an investment in community support. We want to see investment in education. We want to see investment in how we rehabilitate young offenders. So, we want to see a great deal of investment in the secure estate in Wales. What we don't want to see are superprisons imposed upon this country without a holistic criminal justice policy that underpins our ambitions and our vision for this area of policy. And I contend that most people would want to see that as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Sayed.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm tempted to go on this again, but, no, I won't; I'll just annoy people here. [Laughter.] It's now two years since the establishment of the Valleys taskforce to tackle poverty in the Valleys. Can you give us an example, a clear example, as to what one thing, as part of these discussions, has changed Government policy since this Valleys taskforce has come into being?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I've made a series of announcements over the last year. I will be making a further announcement before the summer recess on the work that's been completed as part of the delivery plan we published in November last year. The Member asks for a single example. I would point to the seven strategic hub developments that we've announced across and throughout the Valleys region.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer, but isn't the reality of the situation that this is another Welsh Government scheme to kick the can down the road so you don't have to deal with the consequences of your inaction on poverty and inequality? You have a smaller budget and no control over welfare, and this Government seems to have no willpower whatsoever to even try and get various devolution of welfare, despite a Labour-controlled Chair of the equalities committee saying that we should have some powers over the administration of welfare. A serious Government, with a real appetite for solving inequality and poverty, would jump at the chance to have some influence over welfare, but not this Welsh Government it seems. Isn't the truth that the Valleys taskforce has become another method for you to look at the issues and talk about the issues as opposed to delivering on these particular matters?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I think many of us who represent Valleys seats would hope that Plaid Cymru would engage in this process rather than simply search for sound bites and press releases. Let me say this: in terms of the investment—[Interruption.] In terms of the investment—[Interruption.] In terms of the investment that we are making throughout the communities of the Valleys of south Wales, we have set out—. We have set out an ambitious programme for investment in the people and the communities of the Valleys of south Wales. We published a delivery plan, which has clear targets and objectives in it and timescales. We will be held to account by the people for the delivery of those ambitions. And let me say this finally to the Member for South Wales West: the plan that we published in November wasn't a plan that was written in Cardiff Bay or Cathays Park. It wasn't written by civil servants or even by Ministers. It was written by the people of the Valleys, in communities that we met, we discussed, we debated with week after week, month after month, throughout the time that we have been delivering in this way. And what we've done is to deliver a plan that isn't for the Valleys, but from the Valleys.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for the answer, but let's take a look at the record for a few minutes, shall we? Communities First—scrapped, with no replacement scheme, so the budget can be funnelled into bottomless pits in the revenue support grant or go into other areas that are currently struggling for funding, such as health boards. The child poverty strategy—scrapped, so you can avoid having to take any responsibility for failing to achieve the goals. We've even seen school uniform grants scrapped and moved, which could seriously undermine the Supporting People grant. The Independent, in March, branded Wales 'poverty stricken', with 700,000 people in relative poverty. It is a scandal. This Government was criticised last year, again, by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee for rejecting poverty targets, as you said that poverty was for all departments. Yet we don't seem to have much action from individual departments on this issue. If poverty is an issue that crosses across all departments, then surely it needs a detailed and targeted strategy to tie all of these things together. The truth is that tackling poverty has dropped off this Government's agenda—there is no appetite to tackle the ingrained structural barriers that have entrenched poverty in many places, and you're instead hoping that taskforces and poorly funded third sector initiatives are enough to make it look like something is being done. This is not something to put into a press release, but something to be taken seriously. Considering the fundamental flaws of Communities First, I would have hoped that you would have learnt from that.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I would very gently suggest that the Member, rather than read pre-prepared questions, listens to my answers, and engages on that basis. My suggestion to—[Interruption.] My suggestion to the Member for South Wales West would be to read the delivery plan, read the commitments we've made, read the ambitions we've described, read the objectives we've set for ourselves, and then question us on whether we achieve those ambitions or not. You asked for a strategy—we published one last November; my suggestion to the Member is that she reads it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Well, it's essential that the Welsh Government should be supporting voluntary sector providers delivering key front-line early intervention and prevention services, which I know you agree support thousands of lives and save millions for statutory services. But, equally, it's essential that, when the Welsh Government provide financial funding, due diligence is in place regarding financial and HR controls. Given your responsibility for the voluntary sector in Wales, and the fact that Mind Cymru received almost £1.6 million of Welsh Government funding over the last three years, what action have you taken since BBC Wales published last month claims from former workers at Mind Cymru of bullying, systemic bullying, often involving staff being isolated and undermined—a vicious circle of a drop in confidence had detrimental effects on performance, leading to further criticism; subtle bullying—it felt as if an employer was playing mind games; being made to feel isolated and worthless after reporting feeling stressed to an employer; and many more people from local Mind offices contacting BBC Wales since, reporting and echoing concerns about the culture that they claim was damaging and unsupportive?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I did see those reports, and, like the Member for North Wales, I was very disturbed by what I read and what I saw. The issues are, of course, a matter for Mind Cymru to resolve, rather than for this Government. And if they're unable to resolve those matters, then clearly it would be a matter for the Charity Commission to take those matters up. The Welsh Government is not a regulator of charities in Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, I fully appreciate that, but you'll be as aware as I am, from your time in this Assembly, of the number of occasions when Welsh Government has supported third sector bodies financially that have suffered similar allegations, and ultimately the Welsh Government has been held to account for its failure to intervene. Given the financial commitment that the Welsh Government is making, I hope you will confirm that you should at least be making some enquiries not only from the charity but from the alleged victims to establish what is actually happening with your money. Because I'm told that one of the triggers for the alleged bullying is when staff at Mind Cymru or local Mind offices across Wales talk publicly or talk to the likes of us about where the funding raised for Mind in Wales actually ends up. I'm told that of the £41.3 million going to national—that's UK—Mind to March 2017, only £1.2 million was directly spent on the network of 130 local Minds across England and Wales, delivering projects at the coalface in their communities, and that, having obtained moneys from grant providers like the Welsh Government and others in direct competition with local Minds, they're then top-slicing management fees, creating posts for people in offices and then only offering work to a handful of local Minds for not very much money when the local Minds that provide services are struggling for funding.

As I emphasise, and they've asked me to—or certain people have asked me to—emphasise, Mind Cymru is an office of UK Mind, and the money that's being raised in Wales from organisations like the Welsh Government—nearly £1.6 million over three years—is being used to compete with local Mind projects, such as peer support groups, putting the whole network at risk.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The Member's raised a number of different issues. Clearly, the delivery of those services is a matter for my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for health who is in his place and will have heard the questions and will have taken note of those matters. I will repeat to the Member that, although he raises some very serious issues and I don't wish in any way for him to believe that we don't take these matters very seriously, these are matters that are properly the responsibility of, in the first instance, the charity itself and then the regulator of that charity, the Charity Commission. If he has concerns about specific issues where public funding in Wales is being misspent or has been mis-allocated in any way, then clearly he should raise those matters with the Welsh Government and provide the supporting evidence for that. I'm sure, were he to do so, then the relevant Minister would be very interested in seeing that information.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, clearly, I am using this opportunity to raise these matters with the Welsh Government. For confidentiality reasons, I can't disclose what further action might be taken and what information might be within that further action that I'm privy to. I am sharing the information I'm authorised to share at this point in time. Again, what action, given that you're responsible for the voluntary sector in Wales, do you take to ensure that moneys raised in Wales to support local charities actually stay in Wales for spending by those local charities? I'm told that people don't realise that all the local fundraising by Mind Cymru goes initially to their UK body, not to their local Minds, that the fundraising events advertised as raising money for Mind produce income that all goes to Mind national, which are unrestricted funds that Mind then decides how to spend, and they say they can't commit a direct benefit to local Minds in Wales. In fact, out of their total budget, last year's Mind expenditure on the network totalled just £4.3 million, or 20 per cent of their charitable expenditure. And, as I said at the beginning, only £1.2 million of that went directly to local Minds.

You are the Cabinet Secretary responsible for the voluntary sector. We have a brilliant network of 20 local Minds across Wales struggling to survive because the money being given for good reasons by people in Wales to support them is leaving Wales and only a fraction of it's coming back to deliver those services locally. Surely, Cabinet Secretary—and I hope you'll agree—this is a matter of concern for you as well as your wider Cabinet colleagues.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to the Member for raising these matters in the way that he has done. Can I say this to him? The way that Mind organises its business is a matter for that organisation, not a matter for this Government. Each funding stream will have a series of grant conditions attached to it, and I have no information available to me that Mind is not meeting the obligations that it has undertaken on behalf of Welsh Government. I will say, Presiding Officer, if the Member does have any issues that are causing him significant concern—he clearly does have—then it may be useful for him to put that in writing so that we can understand what those issues are and we can understand what action may potentially be taken in order to address those matters.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. You made a statement last week on low-cost housing in Wales—low-cost home ownership, I should say, it was specifically—and we had an interesting discussion, I felt, after that and several issues were raised. One of them was the possibility that rents in the social housing sector in Wales are in some cases going up quicker than those in the private rented sector. So, I wondered if you saw that as a particular problem at the moment.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you very much for that question, and I can confirm that rent within the social housing sector is one of those specific issues that we've asked the review of social housing to look into. As far as setting rent levels for next year is concerned, Welsh Government has asked Heriot-Watt University to undertake a piece of research in order to advise us, and I specifically asked the university to consider affordability amongst the work they're doing there and to hold round-tables of tenants in both north Wales and south Wales in order to get an understanding from social housing tenants as to the issues that they're facing with regard to affordability of rent.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks for that answer. I think that's a good initiative, and particularly the consultation with the tenants, so I look forward to the outcome of that. Another issue that we did touch on last week—you actually raised an example of good practice that was going on with a particular housing association, Melin Homes in Newport, and you particularly cited the use of apprenticeships. Now, there have been concerns raised by the construction sector that not enough young people are being trained to go into house building and that does sometimes impede the progress of house building in Wales, as in the UK as a whole. Now, do you see that your department has a role in replicating the good practice of Melin Homes, particularly in terms of their use of apprenticeships across Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for that question. We're very keen to replicate the success of Melin Homes and to provide RSLs with the opportunity in order to undertake the kind of work that Melin Homes has been doing. This is one of the reasons why passing our registered social landlords Bill yesterday in the Assembly was so important, because it does allow RSLs to continue their work, which isn't just about building homes, actually; it is about creating jobs and opportunities within communities as well. I was interested in the Federation of Small Businesses's recent research, which they circulated to Assembly Members, which demonstrated the kind of wages that young people can be earning if they do enter the construction sector and work within that sector, starting off as an apprentice potentially, and, actually, those kind of wages were really attractive, and I think that it would be quite an eye-opener for young people to consider the kinds of careers within construction. I'm also keen to see what we can do to support more young women to consider a career in construction, and this is something that the Welsh Government has been working on as part of its STEM subject work.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, I think it's correct that a lot of people can actually earn more money, potentially, by going into things like construction rather than, perhaps, going down the route of university education, because there is a limited financial advantage of having a degree today when so many people actually possess university degrees. So, given what you've just said—and I tend to agree with the general thrust of what you said—how far are you liaising with the education Minister, and also perhaps Eluned Morgan, the skills Minister, in co-ordinating an approach so that perhaps more youngsters are encouraged to go into things like construction going forward?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for that question. I would say that there is always value in learning and the experience of university, but we do need to be doing more to ensure that there is parity of esteem between academic and more practical skills as well. So, there's certainly work to do there in terms of perceptions about careers in construction and other areas, and I can confirm that I have been working closely with Eluned Morgan in her employability role in order to ensure that housing does provide a platform for young people to have the opportunity to enter the housing and construction industry, and actually do so in a way that offers them progression and good job opportunities and prospects for the future.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on feedback received from local government following the publication of the Strengthening Local Government, Delivering for People green paper? OAQ52115

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Local authorities clearly have their own views on the future of local government, and it is for their leaders to raise these in our ongoing discussions and debate, and through formal response to the Green Paper consultation on strengthening local government in Wales.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. To say that local authorities clearly have their own views on this process is probably one of the biggest understatements I've heard in this Chamber to date. But I agree with you on that.

We recently held a debate that you participated in—many AMs did—on the proposals within the Green Paper, specifically the concerns surrounding the proposed mergers of local authorities. Have you had time to reconsider the proposals in the light of that debate and in the light of feedback received from local governments across Wales? And do you think it would be an opportune time to go back to the drawing board to come forward with proposals that local authorities themselves can have some buy-in to, maybe looking at the prospect of an ever closer local government union, stronger collaboration, and to put voluntary mergers back on the agenda, as some local authorities were looking forward to going down that line?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

To answer his final question, of course, option 1 was voluntary mergers. So, the Green Paper does clearly say that. And, certainly, I've said on many occasions that it is my point and purpose to seek agreement wherever that is possible rather than to impose.

I've outlined to this place and elsewhere a vision of a stronger, more empowered local government with greater powers and greater ability to shape the future of the communities that it seeks to represent. I do not wish to diminish local government in any way. My purpose is to strengthen local government, and the Government here has consistently over the last few years protected local government funding, has worked with local government in order to protect public service workers and to protect public services and the delivery of those services. What we seek to do is to seek a consensus, or to seek an agreement, on how we move forward to do that in the future.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Will the Cabinet Secretary join with me in congratulating Welsh local government on the way they have coped with reducing Welsh Government support year on year and the quality of provision that they are providing despite those reductions? And will he commit to working collaboratively with Welsh local government in the manner of his predecessor?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I would always seek to work in collaboration with local government, and I think the Welsh Government has an excellent record of doing so—let me say this. But I will also say that Welsh Government has protected local government from the worst excesses of an austerity approach taken across the border in England. I know that the Member for Swansea East takes a great interest in these matters, and he will be aware that no local authority in Wales has suffered the same level of cuts as has been seen across the border in England, and we need to recognise that. But, of course, we want to work with local authority leaders. But what I would like to be able to do is to work collaboratively to deliver the highest possible vision and not the lowest possible common denominator.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in praising the stalwart work of Welsh councils up and down the country, like Islwyn's own Caerphilly County Borough Council, who are continuing every day to provide strong public services in the face of dramatic cuts to their budgets, thanks to the UK Tory Government? Real cuts year on year to Wales since 2010. And with this in mind, what assurances will the Cabinet Secretary give so that the experienced voices of local government leaders, like Caerphilly's own council leader, Dave Poole, are listened to and respected in their management of service delivery, especially in such austere times, despite Welsh Government protection for local government? And will he continue to work with the leadership of the WLGA under its first ever woman, Debbie Wilcox, to continue to provide for Wales?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Absolutely. I met Debbie last week for a conversation about our vision of a future-empowered and strengthened local government, and I'm meeting her again tomorrow at the partnership council in order to continue those conversations.

I've also had some very positive, and enjoyable, can I say, conversations with Councillor Poole, the leader of Caerphilly. I think it's fair to say that he agrees with a great deal of our vision for the future and that he recognises that the current structures are not sustainable. I think most local authority leaders understand that the current structures we have of local government are simply not sustainable into the future, whatever the issues with the financial envelope available to us.

What I seek to do now is to pursue a conversation that is about how we will strengthen local government in the future. This whole Green Paper process and debate and the conversation that we're having isn't about diminishing and reducing the role of local government, but about strengthening the role of local government to be more powerful in the future than it has been in the past.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the delivery of the wellbeing goals through public services? OAQ52138

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Public bodies are currently preparing their first annual reports under the Act. These reports will set out how public bodies are meeting the objectives they have set, and I look forward to working with them to make further progress towards our shared well-being goals.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer, because delivering well-being in all our policies is clearly a major challenge that's going to be facing our public services. It's going to require a set of outcome measures for our public services that, in turn, will help to provide them with a clear focus on community well-being.

Public services, as you will appreciate, have a huge collective responsibility in terms of providing homes, in promoting mental health and well-being and in ensuring that the NHS continues to transform into a well-being service and not just an ill-health service. Do you agree, therefore, particularly in these times of austerity, that personal and community well-being has to be supported not just as an abstract notion, but as a key economic driver in our communities and that we should place much more emphasis on delivering a set of outcome measures for public services that provide them with a clear focus on community well-being that will improve people's lives now and into the future?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, can I say how much I agree with the premise of the question and the principles underpinning that question? I think, in many ways, public services are the bedrock of our civilisation. How we deal with people and how we provide services for, sometimes, the most vulnerable people in our communities speaks to us of who we are as a country and who we are as a people.

I absolutely agree and I agree with the imperatives underpinning the well-being of future generations Act to deliver a more holistic approach to understanding how we deliver improvements in our communities. I would like to see how we do bring together economic, social and environmental indicators to deliver a far richer view of how we understand our communities in the future, and I'm looking forward to seeing and reading the well-being goals and the well-being policies that are being developed at the moment, and how far local authorities and others are able to come in delivering on that vision and that ambition.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

One of the well-being goals is to create a healthier Wales. According to Diabetes UK Cymru, Wales faces a diabetes epidemic whilst the latest National Child Measurement Programme's annual report shows that more than a quarter of children in Wales are overweight or obese. Will the Cabinet Secretary comment on the role of public services in tackling obesity and diabetes, thereby helping to achieve the goal of a healthier Wales in the future? Thank you.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I do believe that we have a collective responsibility to improve the health of our communities. Members will, I hope, be delighted to hear that I've just signed up to a daily mile in a school in my own community, addressing some of these issues—it might take me more than a day to complete it, but it's certainly my ambition. I believe that we do have a collective responsibility to address these issues.

And, let me say this: speaking, perhaps, as a Member for Blaenau Gwent, when I first stood for election in the constituency, I felt that the economy was the beginning and the end of the issues facing us as a community. If I was standing for the first time again, I would focus on public health and focus on some of the real public health challenges that we have in the community that I represent and in many communities across Wales. I think addressing those fundamental issues of public health is a key determinant of whether the national well-being goals, indicators and milestones are a success in reality for our communities.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

You yourself are a public body under the well-being of future generations Act, and, under the duties of this Act, in order to achieve the well-being goals, you have to deal with your functions in a way that promotes sustainable development in all aspects. That’s incorporated into the Act and also in the Wales Act, as amended by the former Act. Now, we may not agree on the impact of the European Union withdrawal Bill and the inter-governmental agreement, but, under that particular agreement, you have to come to an agreement on frameworks across the UK—I’m sure we can agree on that. Therefore, can you explain how you will ensure that sustainable development is retained in any frameworks across the UK, as that is now part of the work that you agree to do with the Westminster Government? Specifically, will we as an Assembly have the right to vote on the content of these frameworks as you proceed to negotiate them in respect of the well-being goals?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The contributions of Welsh Ministers to each one of the discussions that we have with the United Kingdom Ministers are always based on the policy approach of this Government. That in itself is rooted in the principles of the Act that you have described. And so, every part of our policies and the various approaches through which we will realise our ambitions for our country will be part of, and derived from, the same commitment to the Act and the principles underpinning that. So, Welsh Ministers in every case, not solely when dealing with the United Kingdom, but at every opportunity, will realise our vision and ensure that that is an integral part of it.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

6. What plans does the Welsh Government have to seek the devolution of welfare administration? OAQ52145

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government does not support the devolution of welfare benefits or their administration to Wales. As a matter of principle, we should all be entitled to an equal claim from our welfare state. The needs of citizens within the UK, wherever they live, should be equally met.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

At the same time as the Department for Work and Pensions is closing local offices, universal credit is taking hold in Wales. By 2022, 400,000 households in Wales will rely on universal credit. This Labour Government has previously, and again today, shunned the opportunity to devolve welfare administration, and you have claimed that it would be too costly. The £266 million figure quoted by Ministers as the cost of devolving welfare is grossly misleading, because that figure is based on costs paid to the Scottish Government by Westminster to administer all new powers given to them under the Scotland Act 2016, not just welfare. So, let's be clear: cost is not a barrier here. We have heard this afternoon how your Government is claiming to be mitigating the worst effects of austerity, but you're not. Will the Minister therefore finally join Plaid Cymru in calling for the devolution of welfare administration so that we can actually mitigate some of the worst effects of Westminster's cruel welfare policies?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I think this speaks, really, to a fundamental disagreement between ourselves and between our parties about the place of Wales within the UK, because this is, of course, a United Kingdom that allows us to pool the risks and to share the benefits. And it is the case that the approach to the devolution of welfare benefits in Scotland has transferred that risk associated with the demand of welfare benefits to Scotland, and the risk there demonstrates that benefit requirements within Scotland are moving faster than they are in England. So, for Wales, this would provide us with a very significant risk. And the costs, I'm afraid, for administrating the welfare system would take away resources from the delivery of front-line services. Those figures are correct. For Scotland, it's £66 million for administration and a one-off payment of £200 million for the implementation of all of those newly devolved welfare powers—[Interruption.] But it's not, because they're all related to welfare powers, and those resources really should be spent on the front line.

Actually, let's be clear about what the Scottish Government is doing: the Scottish Government does not administer payments for universal credit. They're administered by the Department for Work and Pensions. The Scotland Act 2016 does give powers to the Scottish Government to offer flexible options for claimants, and these include the direct payment of housing cost elements to social landlords and payments twice a month after that first payment has been made. None of these things are not available to people on universal credit in Wales. What we're doing is trying to ensure that these opportunities are offered proactively to people in receipt of universal credit.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's work to safeguard post office services in Arfon? OAQ52136

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Post offices provide access to a range of important services our communities need. However, matters relating to post offices are not devolved.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

The post office in Upper Bangor was closed without warning a few weeks ago, meaning that businesses, students and local residents had to rely on a mobile service in a car park, which is only available for an hour a week. That is entirely unacceptable. It is crucial that the post office in Upper Bangor has a permanent home in the future. I accept that it’s not a devolved matter, but there is a duty on the Government here to ensure that the Post Office does provide appropriate services to citizens across Wales. I’m sure you’d agree with that.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I am aware of the situation in Upper Bangor, and I can tell the Member for Arfon that this is a matter that is being dealt with currently. The Post Office is at present dealing with it. It's a contractual matter; I cannot say more than that. I am aware that alternative services have been made available, but that they are not adequate for the needs of the community, as it’s only a mobile service available for one hour on Wednesday. However, we have spoken to the Post Office, and we do understand that the Post Office cannot take any further action until the current investigation is completed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 8 [OAQ52148] has been withdrawn. Finally, therefore, question 9—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on local government reform in west Wales? OAQ52113

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I set out our vision for strengthening local government in an oral statement on 20 March, in the Green Paper published for consultation, and during the debate on 25 April.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you will know full well that I'm against merging Pembrokeshire back into an old Dyfed model, given that I believe it will take the 'local' away from local government. I listened very carefully to your earlier answers on this matter, and as part of your Government's consultation plans, I do sincerely hope that you are engaging with councillors, not just local authority leaders, given the enormous impact your proposals would have on their communities. Can you therefore provide an update on the specific discussions you have had with councillors affected by the west Wales proposals? And what further engagement are you planning to ensure that, as a Government, you are truly talking to the people that will be affected by these proposals?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm very happy to provide all Members with a review, if you like, or an analysis of all our engagement during this process, when this process is complete. I'm very happy to provide Members with that information, but I will go further than perhaps the Member asking the question. I believe this is a matter for us as a country, as a people, and as communities. I do not believe that it is simply a matter for either council leaders or councillors. I believe it's a matter for all of us as a community, in order to have these conversations and to have a debate about how we want to see our services structured and taken forward. So, yes, we will be talking to councillors as well as council leaders, but we will also be talking to people throughout the community across the whole of our country.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the topical questions. There are two, and the first is from Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement following Virgin Media's decision to close its call centre in Swansea resulting in the loss of over 700 jobs? 166

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I issued an update on this matter to Members on Friday. This is deeply disappointing news, and my sympathies go to those who are affected by the company's decision. I've asked my officials to establish a taskforce to ensure the best possible outcome for the workers affected by this corporate decision.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for your answer and, of course, for your letter. I think we were all pleased to see that. As you know, Virgin Media has announced plans to completely exit its Swansea site, which is pretty serious; we are talking about the best part of 800 jobs here, after all. But the reason for that is that they're merging from eight sites down to four sites. Of course, two of those sites are in the Philippines and India, so the offers for relocation to these places are pretty laughable. Even those to Glasgow and Manchester are a bit ambitious, shall we say.

I just wanted to ask you—. I've got three or four questions here. The first one is: I'm not particularly clear what support Welsh Government has offered to Virgin Media in the past. I know there were injections, shall we say, into the local economy in 2013 and 2015, but I'd be grateful if you could clarify whether there was any direct Welsh Government support and whether any of that is recoverable, bearing in mind that it's 2018 now. They haven't been there as long as perhaps you might have wanted them to be.

Obviously, you'll have heard the news that some staff found out about this happening through the press. I’d be very keen to know when you, yourself, found out. I know that Dai Lloyd mentioned yesterday that when this happened with Tesco in Cardiff, the Welsh Government didn’t know about it. So, that would help, particularly as, in the past, we've been very keen to hear from you, with both Tata and Ford, what kind of conversations you’ve had.

I see, from your letter, mention of a taskforce, and you’ve just repeated it, but I’m not clear whether you or perhaps even the First Minister have spoken directly to management. If either of you have, I’d be particularly keen to hear what they say, bearing in mind—. I’m just going to quote them here, with your indulgence, Presiding Officer. It says, specifically about the Swansea call centre—and these are Virgin Media's own words here:

'Solving problems like Sherlock, our 850 legends are so good at fault management and technical support that Swansea is Virgin Media’s official centre of excellence for those areas. We’re not the only ones who reckon it’s great. Swansea has won a whole heap of awards, including Welsh Contact Centre of the Year 2012. We’re gonna need a bigger display cabinet.'

So, my obvious question is: why isn’t one of these four hubs in Swansea? And I hope you’ve asked that question. If you haven’t, I'd like you to ask it pretty quickly.

Then, finally, I think we all will welcome First Priority's indication that they will be offering some jobs to those who are losing their spaces at Virgin Media. With the taskforce, who do you think the key stakeholders are likely to be? I don’t know if you’ve made a decision yet. Because bearing in mind—and I don’t know this for certain myself, obviously—the likely age profile and experience of the people working in their media centre, it's not going to be particularly clear to me who those key stakeholders would be. So, if you can give us any steer on that, I’d be very grateful—and particularly if you're able to give us any steer, as well, on any specific new attempts you’re making to promote investment into the area and perhaps secure a suitable employer for the site. I appreciate you’ve not had long to do that. Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions, and can I thank Members across the Chamber for their keen concern regarding this dreadful news for very loyal and dedicated workers? All of our efforts within Government, and with stakeholders, now turn to supporting the award-winning workforce employed at the site who face a period of uncertainty over their future employment. I think we should also say—and Suzy Davies has alluded to it—that the decision by Virgin Media in no way reflects on the workforce, with their excellence in delivering customer services of the highest order, long recognised and regularly held up as best practice. Indeed, as Suzy Davies has said, it's award-winning best practice. It does appear as though Virgin Media have reached a decision based on the lowest cost options for consolidation.

Our assessment of future job trends within this particular sector is such that we believe that Wales is well placed to retain a significant proportion of people employed in contact centres. It's the lowest level of operations that will face the greatest threat from automation and artificial intelligence generally. Those lowest levels of operations have already been offshored outside of Britain. So, it could well be, in the future, that we see a return of employment opportunities to the higher levels of operations at tier 1 and tier 2, and Wales is actually well placed to capture a good chunk of that work.

Meanwhile, what we need to do, and what we have immediately begun, is assess employment opportunities in other established businesses and to assess what the pipeline of opportunities—the pipeline of inward investment—means for the existing workforce. There is already a significant interest in the workforce at Virgin Media by other businesses in the area, including Virgin Atlantic, who may be part of the same Virgin group but operate in an autonomous way. There are other businesses within the contact centre sector who are keen to look at employing and taking on those who will be affected by this decision, unless the decision is reversed.

The Welsh Contact Centre Forum, like us, were notified on the day of the announcement, and I’m also aware of employees learning about the announcement through the media, which I believe is unacceptable. It's not fair and it's not right, and I'd like Virgin Media to reflect on the way that some of their employees were notified about the decision.

We are liaising with the company. I am also, as the Member has outlined, putting together a taskforce that will include Careers Wales, the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, the Department for Work and Pensions, Public Health Wales, trades unions and also Welsh Government officials. I'm hoping that Virgin Media will also form part of that taskforce. The work of the taskforce will replicate what we did with regard to Tesco last year. Members will be pleased to know that the vast majority of people who were affected by that particular decision were helped into work elsewhere within the local economy. We hope the same will happen to Virgin Media staff. We are, indeed, very confident that there will be significant opportunities for the people who today face uncertainty. We are determined to work for them and with them to ensure that they have every opportunity to get work secured as soon as possible.

The human cost to this, of course, can be considerable, and for that reason Public Health Wales will be part of the taskforce, offering signposting services to employees who may face anxiety, depression or other mental health issues—to the right support. I'm also keen to ensure that any opportunity for relocation available to staff is taken up if they so wish. However, it must be said that we expect very few employees to relocate to Manchester or Scotland, and we do not anticipate seeing any employees relocating to Manila. I will endeavour to update Members on a regular basis on the progress that we are making in regard to this particular announcement. As I say, I am confident that the vast majority of people who wish to remain in employment will be able to be supported into alternative jobs within the local area, given the immediate interest that we have been able to ascertain in the days following the announcement.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

As someone who was made redundant by British Steel in the 1980s, I have huge sympathy and huge empathy with those who have been affected, many of whom are my constituents, and some of whom I actually know and will meet over the next week or so. I thank the Cabinet Secretary for the action that he has taken. I don't think that we could ask for any more. I'm very pleased about the taskforce, and I hope that all those people who are currently there and who wish to continue in employment will be able to do so. But we will lose 800 job opportunities in the Swansea area. We're not that well off for jobs that losing 800 job opportunities will not have an effect on the local economy. So, what is the Welsh Government able to do in order to try and bring more employment into the area?

One of the reasons that has been given—I don't know whether officially or unofficially—is that Manchester has such good connections to London, including the expected high speed 2 line, and we can't even get electrification to Swansea. Will the Cabinet Secretary continue to press the Government in Westminster on the importance of electrification to Swansea? It's the signal that it sends out and, as I have said on more than one occasion, it's the importance of saying, 'This is somewhere worth going to, worth creating employment in, because we put electrification there.' Of course, the converse is also true.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, the Member is absolutely right that good connectivity, principally with London, given the size of the economy of London, particularly with regard to financial and professional services, creative industries and the services sector as a whole—. It's essential that we are better connected to that particular city. Many investors identify a two-hour time limit in terms of where they wish to invest. It is particularly the case, for example, within the creative industries. So, upgrading the south Wales main line between Cardiff and Swansea, following the cancellation of the electrification of that particular piece of infrastructure, is absolutely vital, and we expect that work to be carried out at pace, as I said yesterday.

I can assure the Member, as I said to Suzy Davies, that all options for alternative employment are being explored at the moment. I can't go into any details regarding the companies that have already expressed an interest in taking on people who will be affected by this announcement, but we are aware of at least five to date—major companies that are looking at taking on significant numbers. I've already identified Virgin Atlantic, and I wouldn't wish to go into any detail about the other companies. But in addition to this, we are also looking at bringing forward a number of investment opportunities. There is a very strong pipeline of investments in the regulated contact centre sector, and many of these opportunities are due to be landed in the Swansea area.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

It's fair to say it's been a huge, devastating blow to Swansea—772 jobs, or 800 in round figures, lost, and a knock-on effect on dozens of families locally. My first question is: where can we signpost individual workers who are getting in touch with us as Assembly Members expecting us to have some details to hand with regard to what they do know? I'd be grateful for some practical advice like that to start off with, and I'd be grateful, Cabinet Secretary, for assistance in directing these people, who are in a distressed state now, to the right sort of advice.

I won't rehearse the arguments that others have brought forward, but in terms of proactivity from Welsh Government in these situations, we're aware, obviously, that large amounts of the Welsh economy are based on call centres—call centres largely run by large private businesses. I was just wondering how, as Welsh Government, you are developing relationships with those same big businesses so that there's some sort of empathy, or some sort of working behind the scenes, before we have these huge announcements that, all of a sudden, 800 jobs are going and nobody knows about it—least of all you to know about it. You discovered it the same time that the rest of us did, or as some of our workers did in Swansea—they discovered it from the media.

I would hope there would be some proactivity behind the scenes. It's not without warning. We had the Tesco call centre losing 1,000 jobs from Cardiff last year. We all discovered it at the same time, when it was announced in the media. We were asking then: what about some proactivity? What's the role of Government here in supporting people, or at least working things out before the large balloon goes up and then we have to sort it out there and then? So, in terms of just some more detail on how you're developing those relationships with these large private companies so that we can do something proactively to help our people—. And in terms of alternative jobs, I would press again that we do need alternative jobs, as Mike Hedges has alluded to, in the Swansea area in particular. We've talked a lot about the tidal lagoon, but it's desperately, seriously required now— quality jobs in Swansea bay because we are losing jobs like this all of the time. Diolch yn fawr.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Dai Lloyd is right to point to the Swansea bay tidal lagoon as a project that could offer, and should be offering, high-quality jobs. The whole point of the economic action plan is to drive up the creation of higher quality, better-paid, more secure employment opportunities. And I think the announcement by Virgin Media demonstrates why we (a) need to supercharge the industries of the future, but also make sure that existing employers within Wales are futureproofed. That's why we've commenced work, the study, on digitisation and automation within the Welsh economy. It's why one of the calls to action concerns futureproofing of businesses, and so we're absolutely determined to make sure that existing jobs are retained, that businesses are futureproofed for the change that is inevitable and will come within the next decade, but also that we're focusing new job creation in those areas of economic activity that are sustainable in the long term.

I think Dai raises the important question of relations, not just between Government and some businesses, but also between trade unions and some businesses, and also stakeholder groups and some businesses. The fact that this particular business is non-unionised and that the Welsh Contact Centre Forum were not made aware of the decision demonstrates that this was a decision that the business reached and wished to keep for sensitive commercial reasons within its own ranks until the point at which the media were informed. But as I said in response to Suzy Davies, I do not think that that's a fair way to treat their own employees.

There are 772 people who have demonstrated great loyalty to the business. Two hundred and twenty are subcontracted to Sitel. Now, I wouldn't wish to raise hopes too high at this stage, but I've asked my officials to explore the potential of Sitel to remain in Swansea. We are hoping that Virgin Media will be supportive of this and will perhaps continue with the existing accommodation, as an interim offer would be particularly helpful in trying to secure as many of those jobs as possible. Notwithstanding this, we will be offering signposting services, primarily to the DWP and Careers Wales—they're certainly the two agencies that I would suggest the Member refers his constituents to in the first instance. But I am also hopeful that Virgin Media will allow on-site workshops to take place involving those partners who will form the taskforce. It's what Tesco allowed on-site when they made the decision last year and it made a huge difference in terms of making sure that people could segue from employment in Tesco to another job, and it also made a very significant difference in minimising the emotional damage of redundancies. So, I'm hopeful that Virgin Media will accept the request from us to allow taskforce partners to go on-site and to offer those people who are going to be affected by this decision valuable workshops in how to get into employment and how to make sure that their well-being is safeguarded in the interim period.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, I make no apology for repeating a lot of the things that have already been said, but as these 800 people are within my region, it's important to emphasise that my thoughts are with these people who've lost their jobs and wanting to know exactly what we are trying to do and what we are going to do to find alternative employment for these people. Swansea has become something of a specialist in the call-centre sector, and everything must be done to enhance its position by providing a skilled workforce, a low tax environment and world-class infrastructure, and possibly the tidal lagoon, as has already been said by Dai Lloyd. So, Cabinet Secretary, what more can be done than has already been said to make Swansea an attractive place for entrepreneurs and large businesses alike? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her questions? Swansea has a fantastic future ahead of it. The progress that's been made locally in ensuring that it's a more attractive place in which to live, in which to learn and in which to invest should be admired by all. Indeed, I think Swansea sets the template for many other towns, cities and regions in Wales and the UK when it comes to place building and ensuring that the quality of place is at the centre of any economic development strategy.

In terms of what else we can do, I'm absolutely determined that employment opportunities existing elsewhere, or which are going to be created elsewhere, are brought to those people who are affected by this decision within house, so that we can not only offer within Virgin Media employment workshops, but also ensure that we are taking information about alternative employment into the workplace, so that people don't have to scramble around searching for jobs, worrying whether they're going to be able to make ends meet when Virgin Media finally close their doors. So, again, I would call on Virgin Media to accept our request for those workshops and for those stakeholders that will form the taskforce to be able to have access to their premises.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

The second topical question this afternoon is by Hefin David and it's to be answered by the Minister for Housing and Regeneration. Hefin David.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

2. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding the proposed centralisation of existing Department of Work and Pensions jobs at Treforest industrial estate? 169

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you. The leader of the house, as the Welsh Government lead Minister for Better Jobs Closer to Home, has made repeated representations to the UK Government, and in particular the Minister for employment, both in writing and in person, setting out the Welsh Government's serious concerns about this proposal.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I'm grateful for that, and I'll stand with my colleagues—Julie Morgan, Lynne Neagle, John Griffiths, Jayne Bryant and Dawn Bowden—who have raised concerns about the impact in their constituencies, and I also thank the work of the Public and Commercial Services Union who have worked very hard in ensuring that we have full knowledge of what is going on here. There was a letter from the Department for Work and Pensions, which was not as full in its explanation as we might like it to be. In Caerphilly, we've got 225 staff who are employed at the Caerphilly benefits centre. A number of my constituents work at other DWP sites in my colleagues' constituencies, and I'm quite sure that other Members will want to raise concerns—those I've not mentioned today. The closure of the DWP office on Castle Street in particular will have a detrimental effect on employment and footfall in Caerphilly town centre. It will take jobs away from an area close to residential premises, close to shops, at a time when we're boosting the Caerphilly town centre. This flies in the face of a very positive announcement today about tourism at Caerphilly castle, and no consideration has been given to the impact on how residents in Caerphilly will reach this site by car.

In the letter from the Department for Work and Pensions, they said that they want to maximise the retention of DWP colleagues—maximise retention of colleagues. It's clear, therefore, that they're actually anticipating losing some people who will not be able to get to the new location. So, we're actually going to see some new recruits at this new location, but they will categorically not be new jobs. It will make it much harder for people in Caerphilly to get there, and therefore, it is something of a misleading statement to even suggest that any of these would be new jobs.

Those that don't agree to the new premises will have to travel to work, as I've said, by car, and congestion in the Caerphilly basin is already a problem. I'd be very concerned to see issues added to that. It also flies in the face of our own stated ambition to bring better jobs closer to home, and what particularly concerned me was that the DWP letter talked about working with the 'Our Valleys, Our Future' strategy. It categorically does not do that. In fact, it does completely the opposite to that. And I was struck by the fact that the first letter I received from the DWP, from the UK Government, was addressed to David Hefin AM, which suggests that they know very little about the workings of this Assembly, and adds further outrage to the fact that they try to tie this announcement to a strategy that they likely know nothing about.

What can the Welsh Government therefore do to ensure that well-paid sustainable jobs remain in our Valleys towns, but, also, to dig deeper into what is really going on here, and the issues that I'm sure my colleagues would want to raise as part of this question?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for those questions and I couldn't agree more about the importance of having these kinds of jobs in our town centres, in terms of footfall in town centres and ensuring that we do have vibrant town centres. So, this news has come as a great disappointment. I completely agree with your comments about Better Jobs Closer to Home, and it's actually something that Julie James brought to the attention of the DWP in one of her earlier letters, where she says,

'These decisions go completely against the Welsh Government's policy for Better Jobs Closer to Home and will impact on some of our most deprived communities. We're working cross-Government to support people into employment in these areas and we also provide strategic investment to attract good jobs with clear career pathways for employees in our most disadvantaged areas. Therefore, the relocation of the DWP staff based in Cwmbran and the other offices earmarked for closure is a significant shift of good jobs in direct contradiction to this policy.'

So, Welsh Government is completely in accord with your assessment of the situation, in terms of it being very much opposed to what we are trying to achieve for the Valleys.

You're quite right, David Hefin, that the Tories just don't understand the Valleys, and for this reason Julie James actually got a map of the Valleys out in order to demonstrate to Damian Hinds in a meeting that transport in the south Wales Valleys isn't perhaps as straightforward as you'd imagine it would be. But these arguments about how difficult it is for staff to be able to get the Treforest site just clearly didn't ring true to him, so they didn't have any impact on the decision that was made.

In terms of any potential job losses, I would just give the Welsh Government's commitment that we would work proactively with individuals through our ReAct programme, and other programmes, in order to support people into new employment, but clearly this isn't where we would like to be.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I would like to reinforce, Minister, that it does seem as if the UK Government is seeking political cover for the decision that they've made by trying to explain it, at least partly, in terms of aligning with Welsh Government policy on the location of jobs and relocation of jobs to the Valleys, because, as well as Better Jobs, Closer to Home moving in the opposite direction to that alleged rationale, we also have, of course, Welsh Government policy to regenerate town and city centres. In Newport, for example, some 370 jobs are located in Sovereign House in the city centre, in the benefits office, which would be relocated. So, that would then go against a policy of trying to find use for these city centre premises, and also take spend out of the local economy. So, it would be entirely opposed to a major strand of Welsh Government policy, and have a major impact on that local Newport city centre economy.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much, and, again, completely agree that we need people living and working in our town centres to ensure that they are very much vibrant places. So, again, I completely agree with those comments and concerns that you have raised, about the impact that losing so many jobs from a town centre location could have on the ability of small businesses, for example, in the area to remain sustainable.

It also flies in the face of our Valleys taskforce working. Because, again, Julie James said to Damian Hinds that the DWP offices are in some of our most deprived communities in Wales. The Welsh Government established a ministerial taskforce in September 2016 to work with communities in the south Wales Valleys over the course of this Assembly term, with a focus on creating good-quality jobs in the Valleys, and the skills people need to access those jobs has been identified as an early priority. And she was extremely clear in saying,

'The action that you are proposing undermines this policy approach in Wales, which is about ensuring a share of the growth seen south of the M4 corridor is brought into the Valleys, and I urge you to reconsider your proposals to safeguard the jobs in these communities.'

So, your assessment that the UK Government is trying to seek some kind of cover behind Welsh Government policy is again correct, whereas we've been very clear with them throughout that what they're suggesting actually flies in the face of Welsh Government policy.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, the decision to open a new base for the Department for Work and Pensions at Treforest has been welcomed by the Labour leader of Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, coming as it does after announcements that Transport for Wales, Health Education and Improvement Wales, and the new Welsh Revenue Authority will all have their headquarters situated there—more likely the more employment and more traffic and more everything, development will go in that area, which is welcome news.

Will the First Minister welcome the department's assurance that it will look at alternative roles for those who currently work in Cardiff, Newport, Merthyr Tydfil, Cwmbran and Caerphilly who are unable to relocate to Treforest? And will she undertake to discuss with her colleagues measures to alleviate any potential job losses, such as public transport, to soften the impact on those communities, particularly in and around the south-east Valleys? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think that finding alternative roles for people who have found that their jobs have been moved to a place that is just completely impractical for them to get to would be the very least that a responsible employer could offer. There are going to be certain transport challenges, no doubt, in terms of people getting to the new site in Treforest, which is one of the reasons why Julie James was so clear in terms of providing the map to the UK Government Minister. We have had some confirmation, just in the past week, about the fact that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions says that the DWP will offer support with travel costs for a period of three years, for costs over and above existing costs. But, again, that is very little comfort for people who are facing their jobs being moved to somewhere that is beyond their own networks, and where they perhaps will be finding that their caring commitments will be interfered with, and so on.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I think the DWP's intentions for this relocation have been well known for some time, but it was due to a leak that we knew about the proposed site—it's only now just been confirmed. It's clear that, under this proposal, in my constituency alone, we're going to be losing more than 250—260 jobs, in fact—from Merthyr, to Treforest. And I'd reiterate exactly what Hefin and John have already said about that. Because, although most of these jobs are not being lost to the organisation, they are being relocated, and the towns that they are being relocated from will be hit economically, without any shadow of a doubt. You cannot take 260 jobs out of a town like Merthyr and expect there to be no impact at all.

Even though relocation is being offered to staff, for many, that's not going to be an option, because of the additional travelling times and costs involved in the move, and the difficulties that that's going to present for those with caring responsibilities, for example. And I've already had representations from constituents, saying that they're not going to be able to move for those reasons. And, indeed, the DWP themselves have identified to the Public and Commercial Services Union that at least 600 of those staff are going to be what they call 'outside mobility'; in other words, those are the ones that are not going to be able to be redeployed—600 staff are not going to be able to be redeployed. So, we would obviously be interested to know what's going to happen to them.

Like Hefin, I was also astounded to see the letter from the DWP to AMs whose constituencies are affected—they did get my name right, at least—saying that the move supports 'Our Valleys, Our Future', and that these would be bringing jobs to the Valleys. I've written back to the DWP to advise them—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can you come to a question, please?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

—what our strategy actually needs, so that they know that it's not relocating existing jobs, but it is actually putting them in more accessible places.

The questions I wanted to ask were, firstly, whether the DWP has actually discussed with Welsh Government the plans for the relocation, which appear to be predicated on a private finance initiative project, or PFI-funded project, which, as we know, in the long term is going to be a huge drain on the public purse. And finally, if you could just repeat—. I think you were talking earlier on about some of the methods of assistance that might be available—the ReAct programme, and so on. What can be used for those people—those 600 people—who clearly are going to be displaced and not relocated as a result of this move?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for those questions and, actually, one of the deep ironies of this is the fact that some of the places where jobs will be moving from are actually strategic hubs within our Valleys taskforce. So, it is just a completely nonsensical argument that the UK Government is in any way trying to support what we're trying to achieve for our Valleys communities.

You're right as well that the news first surfaced as a leak. Welsh Government had no notice of it, so the leader of the house was very clear that she was extremely disappointed that the UK Government didn't consult with the Welsh Government to seek alternative solutions prior to making decisions. And at every point she's been very clear that she's keen that her officials work with the UK Government to explore alternative solutions, including, for example, co-location where feasible with the Welsh Government. But, again, these offers to help and work collaboratively have not been taken up.

The transport issues are very real in terms of people being able to move from your community to Treforest to take up their job. We've just had the statement on the decision of Virgin to close their Swansea plant, and offer some people jobs in Manila. Well, Treforest might as well be Manila for some people who are in this situation, because it's just completely unfeasible.

I know that Julie James has offered to have some discussions looking at things like community transport options, and so on, but again these are just small efforts that we can make to try and make the situation better. But, at every stage, we have opposed this move.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

I'd like to thank Hefin David for raising this today and, as has been said, there's no doubt that this goes against the Welsh Government's plans for jobs closer to home. It will mean relocating 365 jobs from the heart of Newport, which will have a knock-on effect on the local economy and the footfall in the city centre. The staff at Sovereign House deserve better, and so do all the staff in other offices that are closing down in Wales.

The jobs moving to Treforest are not new jobs. This decision seems to have been drawn up by the UK Government with no understanding at all of the staff that they currently employ's commuting times, or the geography of Wales. Adding at least an extra hour each way on travel by train from Newport could put a huge pressure on parents and grandparents, and people with caring responsibilities. For those travelling by car, I understand that the planning application in Treforest only has 450 parking spaces, which seems totally inadequate for the 1,700 people who will work there.

The UK Government have also failed to recognise the extra financial burden these workers will face because of further travel, although I hear what you've said today about it for a temporary time. But there's no doubt in my mind that this is a betrayal of all the experienced and loyal workforce in Newport. Is the Minister aware of any equality impact assessment by the UK Government, and what more can the Welsh Government do to support the workers and families who will bear the brunt of this terrible decision?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for that question. I'm not aware of any equality impact assessment that has been undertaken by the UK Government, but I'm sure that this is something that the leader of the house will be pursuing with them now that the news has finally become formal regarding the proposed closures and the move of jobs. I just give you a guarantee that we'll work across Government to see what more we can do to support the communities that have been affected and particularly the individuals for whom moving to Treforest just isn't going to be a viable option.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Seven hundred and fourteen staff are affected from the Gabalfa site in my constituency of Cardiff North, and there are a high number of those staff who do have disabilities and do have caring responsibilities, so there is huge concern about how they're actually going to cope with this move. Can the Minister find out why a consultation hasn't already started with the staff? Because, as we know, this has been mooted for some time, and the staff do need maximum preparation for this move, so I'd be grateful if she could undertake to ask why this consultation hasn't already started with my constituents and all the other 1,700 people who are suffering in this way.

The other issue, of course, is the loss of expertise. I understand from talking to the PCS union that the staff are already under stress in terms of dealing with the welfare benefits changes that they are undertaking. So, what can we do to ensure that we do retain the expertise, because we are bound to lose a lot of people when this move takes place? And could she confirm that, in the costings from the DWP, all the costs of this move have been fully taken into account? Because there's going to be voluntary redundancy costs, potential compulsory redundancy costs, recruitment of replacement staff, new staff training costs, benefits costs for anyone who cannot find alternative work, and then, also, the impact on the local communities of losing those jobs in those areas, because it's going to have a huge impact on those areas.

It just seems an absolutely crazy policy to move jobs from places that are already struggling and suffering, and really to say that it's to be in line with the Valleys taskforce I think is absolutely disgraceful. So, I'd be grateful if the Minister could take up these issues and also the issue that Dawn raised about is this building being built by a PFI contract.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for those questions. I will certainly give you an undertaking to explore, alongside the issue of the impact assessment that Jayne Bryant mentioned, the other impact assessments that you have suggested and also the costs of the move. Certainly, I'll work with Julie James in order to get the kind of information that we now require, and either I or Julie will write to Members with the result of those investigations.

I agree that it's completely unfair of the UK Government to be keeping the staff in the dark about this and also to give them essentially a period now, looking towards 2021, of uncertainty. I think it's not the UK Government's intention to start consulting with staff until much closer to the time. I also understand that they're looking towards a phased movement, but, again, once we have more detail and more information about this, I'd be more than happy to share it with Members.

There is one aspect that will be interesting to Julie Morgan particularly, and this is in correspondence last week from Esther McVey, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, to the First Minister. She states that there will be capacity for 100 DWP staff to relocate to the Government hub that is currently being constructed in Cardiff, in Central Square. So, that might be of particular interest to Julie.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you.

4. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 4 is 90-second statements, and the first this week is from Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Saturday 5 May marked the start of the 2018 Dystonia Awareness Week. Dystonia affects all ages. It is a very painful, debilitating and disabling disorder. Faulty signals from the brain will cause muscles to spasm and pull on the body incorrectly. The body is forced into twisting, repetitive movements or abnormal postures. It may affect one part of the body or, indeed, multiple areas. In the overwhelming number of cases, there is no cure for dystonia—rather, it is a lifetime condition that must be managed. Dystonia is the third most common neurological condition in Wales. However, it still lacks awareness among the general public and even among some medical professionals. Dystonia Awareness Week aims to change this. The Dystonia Society have arranged for a number of events and activities around their theme, 'Go green and be seen'. The cross-party group on neurological conditions, chaired by Mark Isherwood, has played an excellent role in ensuring the voices of people affected by dystonia are heard here. I also want to thank the health Secretary, Vaughan Gething, for meeting with people with dystonia in my constituency office in Aberdare, and also for acting on a meeting held with the south Wales support group of the Dystonia Society. Since being elected, I have met many people who live with dystonia and still have incredibly full lives. I pay tribute to their courage and their fortitude.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

The sixtieth anniversary of the Life Peerages Act 1958 was commemorated last week. One of those instrumental in campaigning for equality in both Houses of Parliament was Margaret Mackworth, Lady Rhondda. A suffragette and a lifelong campaigner for equality of women, she died in 1958, months after the Life Peerages Act was passed, and five years before the Peerage Act 1963 allowed women like herself to sit in the House of Lords. Raised in Newport, she took over as secretary of the local branch of the Women's Social and Political Union—the suffragettes—in 1908. A plaque now marks where she set off a home-made bomb in a post box in 1913, which she was sent to prison for. Although the post box is still standing today, she certainly made her point. During the first world war, she was appointed chief controller of women's recruitment at the Ministry of National Service. After the war, she founded the Time and Tide paper with its all-female board. Against the odds, she gained respect in the male-dominated world of business and became the first female president of the Institute of Directors. Lady Rhondda was a pioneer: she described women's suffrage as 'a draught of fresh air' and gained the nickname 'the Persistent Peeress' in her quest for equality. As her biographer, Angela John, says, in many different ways, and over decades, Lady Rhondda sought to turn the tide of public opinion in twentieth-century Britain. For that, we all owe her a debt of gratitude.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you.

5. Debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report: Apprenticeships in Wales

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The next item is the debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report on apprenticeships in Wales. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion. Over the last 15 months or so, the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee has been somewhat obsessed with apprenticeships. In addition to the report we're debating today, we've also reported on the introduction of the UK Government's apprenticeship levy, and just last month we scrutinised the Minister again, assessing the impact of that levy one year on. We have dedicated so much of the committee's time to apprenticeships because we think they are important. Apprenticeships matter: they offer a great way for people to earn as they learn and for employers to invest in the skills their businesses need. Whilst we've badged this piece of work an 'inquiry into apprenticeships', the terms of reference were fairly wide-ranging and allowed us to look at issues including careers advice and aspects of vocational training in general. I'm sure today's debate will be equally wide-ranging.

In my contribution today, I do want to focus on the key appeal that the committee has issued. In our evidence, we heard from providers, apprentices and young people who hadn't gone down that route, and we heard a number of times that economic barriers—the cost of travel, the cost of buying a suit for an interview, et cetera—can prevent young people from taking up opportunities, and our response to this was to question the Government on what they can do, and we made two recommendations in that regard. Our recommendation 6 was that the Welsh Government should create a competitive hardship fund for apprentices on the lowest pay levels, or create other concessions, such as concessionary bus or rail cards, as exist for other students.

Our recommendation 7 was that the Welsh Government should establish a universal grant to cover living costs for all apprentices, as is due to be available for Welsh university students from 2018-19. At the heart of this debate, I think, at the heart of this question, is fairness. And I think there's probably widespread agreement across this Chamber that we consider academic and vocational learning equal—that there is parity between the two routes. But what we haven't yet achieved is parity of support for students going down both routes. So, I think there is a strong and compelling moral case for the Welsh Government to apply similar levels of support to apprentices as would be available to their peers in full-time higher education.

In adverts to promote its new package of measures for university students, the Welsh Government has declared it to be the most generous student support package in the UK and level of support that young people heading off to university can expect. I'll say it again: the most generous support package in the UK. So, today, I want to use this opportunity in this debate to call for Wales's apprentices to have an equally generous support package.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Will you take an intervention?

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Yes.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you. I think this parity point is particularly important, and I'm thinking of young adult carers who, at the moment, have financial disincentives for not going into higher education or, indeed, apprenticeships. When Welsh Government is listening and thinking how to respond to this report, would you agree with me that they should be considering ways to help young adult carers into apprenticeships, but also make it easier for businesses to take on young adult carers with a slightly less consistent ability to attend?

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Suzy. I don't think we had that precise evidence in the inquiry, but I think what you said is in line with the committee's thinking as well, and I suppose very much it feeds into our recommendations 6 and 7, which, I was about to go on to say, the Government has accepted, actually, in principle, pending the completion of ongoing consultation. I think I'm accepting of that; I accept that point as a sensible step. But I do trust that any delay will be short and that action will follow swiftly.

Providing parity of support, I think, is important in itself, but it also reinforces the message that both routes are equally important and valid. That message is an important one, as one of our findings was that perceptions of apprenticeships can lag behind the reality in the minds of parents and teachers. As a committee, we felt that there was more that the Welsh Government could do to support employers in raising awareness among a wider range of young people of the benefits of apprenticeships. The Government has rejected this recommendation on the grounds that it already provides extensive information. But I do have to say that's a shame, as it was clear to us that, whatever information is available, it hasn't reached everyone who needs it, and many young people still feel their teachers and parents aren't giving enough support and encouragement to vocational routes.

The Welsh Government's latest figures show a 60/40 gender split among all apprentices, with women in the majority. But, on digging further, there remains a stubborn gender difference in particular sectors. So, the committee recommended that there should be no let-up in the support to tackling the wider prejudices and conventions regarding gender and careers and that the widest opportunity is available to all. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation.

The Welsh Government also accepted our call for more action to be put to the under-representation of disabled people. Written evidence from Remploy highlighted that only 2.7 per cent of learners in work-based learning provision, and 1.3 per cent of apprenticeships in Wales, are disabled. This compares to 9 per cent in England. So, I do look forward to some progress being made in that area.

Both in this inquiry and in our recent review of the apprenticeship levy, there was a growing concern that Wales has fallen behind England in the roll-out of degree apprenticeships. There are around 10,000 degree apprenticeships in England this academic year, compared to none in Wales. So, the committee recommended that the Welsh Government sets a deadline for the teaching of degree apprenticeships, but that has been rejected. The Minister has said that the money is available and that it is up to universities, as autonomous bodies, to determine when they start. But who is at fault is not really of concern to me or the committee; the issue is a growing perception in Wales that Wales is lagging behind. I would urge the Minister for skills and, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary for Education to bring their influence to bear so that Wales picks up the pace when it comes to degree apprenticeships.

Our final recommendation was that Estyn should consider how best to include in its inspections the availability and quality of careers advice on vocational courses and training, including apprenticeships in schools. While Estyn do look at careers advice, it's not often a priority area, and we wanted to move it up the agenda. Schoolteachers—most of them—who themselves followed an academic pathway will naturally think that that route is suitable for other young people. And the funding regime, of course, is also all about retaining young people in a school's own sixth form, because of the positive impact that that has on school funding. So, there's a built-in incentive there to showcase that route.

So, Deputy Presiding Officer, at the very least, I hope that this debate and the publicity around it will encourage young people and the teachers and parents they lean on for advice to look at apprenticeships as a positive life option and the opportunities that they offer. I look forward to the debate this afternoon.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Can I thank the committee for their very detailed report on the work that they did from their inquiry? I want to take the opportunity to talk more widely about apprenticeships, before making some comments that I think are probably relevant to recommendations 6 and 7 around apprentice pay.

It's clear to me that well-structured training can deliver the skilled workforces that we require, and that remains vital to the future health of the economy in communities across Wales, especially for improving opportunities in our Valleys communities. Apprenticeship opportunities are key for many local economies and I know the value of them in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. Companies like General Dynamics Land Systems UK in Pentrebach have a strong and successful record on apprenticeships, working closely with Merthyr college to deliver the skills that are needed in order to deliver its cutting-edge Ajax family of vehicles to the British army. In south Wales, General Dynamics Land Systems UK currently delivers two four-year apprenticeships in mechanical manufacturing and engineering technical support. Its current 12 apprentices—a number that is growing year on year—will receive an NVQ level 3 and higher national certificate in their fields, and the company is also branching out to provide apprenticeships in non-engineering fields such as quality and facilities. This shows a clear commitment from the company to the constituency, to its employees, and, particularly, to young people, and that is the good news about apprenticeships.

In contrast, however, the apprenticeship pay survey 2016, which was undertaken by the UK Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, points to a number of issues that should concern us, and this links directly with recommendations 6 and 7 around pay levels and the cost of living for apprentices. I was particularly interested in the data around compliance with the national minimum wage and the national living wage. While acknowledging methodology issues and changes in the rates applicable, the survey identifies that, in 14 per cent of cases in Wales, apprentices at levels 2 and 3 were paid below the appropriate minimum wage or national living wage, and that has to be a worry. Furthermore, the survey highlighted that the proportion of apprentices with non-compliant pay increased among those aged 19 to 20 in the second year of their apprenticeship—a further cause for worry.

Of course, the responsibility to make sure that apprentices are treated fairly rests with the employer, but businesses clearly need to understand those responsibilities. Research from the Learning and Work Institute Cymru found that a fifth of employers hadn't heard about the apprentice minimum wage and that more than 40 per cent didn't know that off-the-job training needed to be paid. But, most importantly for me, the survey highlights the importance of the UK Government ensuring compliance with such important legislation, and while I'm supportive of the proposals for additional support to apprentices that are set out in the report, we must look to the UK Government to more rigorously uphold the minimum wage and the living wage as that, in turn, secures fairness for everyone, including apprentices.

Usefully, the Learning and Work Institute recommended action in three crucial areas: firstly, around raising employer awareness so that all employers are aware of the rules; secondly, clear information setting out minimum wage entitlements at the start of an apprenticeship and more responsibility on training providers to ensure that this happens; and thirdly, better enforcement and support for apprentices when there is a problem. I would add here that I think there is also a responsibility on trade unions to prioritise organising and support for apprentices.

Because we all know that apprenticeships can be an exciting pathway to a successful job and career, and we also know that this Welsh Government is committed to a fair work agenda. So, I hope that the Minister would agree that a new fair work commission should take a look at the findings of the survey that I've been quoting from and that it should also be looked at when implementing the new economic contract. I hope that Welsh Government consider how, going forward, the research can also help to further shape our apprenticeship programme in Wales to ensure that those taking up apprenticeships are fairly treated. Finally, I hope that the Minister will be able to write to the UK Government pressing the case for more rigorous enforcement of apprenticeship wages. These are hard-fought-for rights that no Government should allow to be flouted on their watch.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Our inquiry into apprenticeships in Wales exposed concerns that the number of disabled apprentices in Wales is far below the rate achieved in England, that economic barriers are preventing young people from taking up opportunities, that a stubborn gender segregation remained and that a lack of providers may be preventing young people from undertaking apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh.

In accepting our recommendation on gender and careers, the Welsh Government noted that although 60 per cent of learners pursuing an apprenticeship were female, this—quote—

'masks gender disparity in some sectors.'

In accepting our recommendation that they should produce a clear, disabled-person-specific action plan to address the under-representation of disabled people in apprenticeships, after 19 years in power, the Welsh Government said that they are—quote—

'committed to improving our approach'.

They state that they have been working with Remploy to match those who are participating in the Work Choice programme into apprenticeship opportunities and have introduced a case worker approach with the aid of designated Remploy apprenticeship co-ordinators. Well, last month, I visited Remploy Wrexham to discuss the launch of the UK Government employment support programme, Work and Health Programme Wales, and to sit in on a training session with customers. The Welsh Government must therefore provide assurance that its new employability programme adds to rather than replicates this, and this should be included in the annual progress report on implementation of its employability plan, which it pledges to provide to the committee in response to our recommendation 11.

In stating that it is in the process of setting up an inclusive apprenticeship working group comprising of representatives from disability organisations across Wales, which—quote—

'will produce an Apprenticeships Disability Action Plan',

we'll need assurance that it will act on the explanation by Disability Arts Cymru that the difference between disability equality training and disability awareness training is that disability awareness training is often led by non-disabled people who are professionals in the medical or caring professions. This training has a medical focus, it informs participants about disabled people's impairments and ways of overcoming disability, whereas disability equality training is always led by trainers who are disabled people. The focus is on disabled and non-disabled people working together to overcome the disabling barriers in society. This training has a holistic focus, recognising that removing the physical, financial and attitudinal barriers will create a more inclusive, accessible society. That is core. That is key.

In rejecting our recommendation that they should provide more support to employers in raising awareness among a wider range of young people of the benefits of apprenticeships, the Welsh Government then provides a list of the information it already provides. However, this neither addresses the written evidence from Remploy, highlighting that only 2.7 per cent of learners in work-based learning provision and 1.3 per cent of apprentices in Wales are disabled, compared to 9 per cent in England, nor Remploy's suggestion that one of the reasons for this is a lack of awareness of apprenticeships by parents, employers and learners.

The young people we met at the Prince's Trust detailed the financial barriers that prevent young people from taking up apprenticeships. In only accepting in principle that it should create a competitive hardship fund for apprenticeships on the lowest pay levels, or create other concessions such as concessionary bus or rail cards, as exist for other students, the Welsh Government states that this would need to be considered—quote—

'against the outcome of the Discounted Bus Travel for Young Persons in Wales consultation.'

However, this closed four months ago. While the Welsh Government states that it responds to most consultations in 12 weeks, ITV Wales reported on Monday that the Welsh Government has failed to respond to nearly a third of its consultations launched since the election two years ago. Let's hope this is not another one. And although it states that subsidising travel costs is likely to be classified as a UK taxable benefit, NUS Wales point out that local authorities in Sheffield, Liverpool and the west midlands have already introduced similar plans.

Their acceptance in principle only of our recommendation that they should provide the committee with an annual update covering all protected characteristics and access from low-income communities is not acceptable. The committee is clear that apprentices in Wales are not yet fully representative of the wider society they're drawn from. Reform's recent report on the apprenticeship programme in England concluded that if the necessary changes they describe were made, then apprentices, taxpayers and employers across the country stand to benefit for many years to come.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can you wind up, please?

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

It is noted that there has not been an equivalent progress report on the apprenticeship programme in Wales.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

I'd like to thank the Members of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee for producing this report—thank you—on apprenticeships in Wales. It is clear that qualitative apprenticeships play an essential role in our economic success, as well as in building a stronger, fairer and more equal Wales. I'm proud of the Welsh Government's commitment to create 100,000 apprenticeships by the time of the next Assembly elections. These are qualitative apprenticeships, meaningful and targeted, as identified by the OECD interest in our wider economic action plan. There is much for us to be proud of, but of course this report identifies there is more that can be done.

I am glad that the Welsh Government has accepted the report's recommendation to do more to tackle gender prejudice and wider access to apprenticeships. As has been said, although 60 per cent of those pursuing an apprenticeship are female, they are too often guided towards lower-paid sectors and, despite many educational initiatives, are noticeably absent from STEM subjects. It is vital that we tackle such gender disparities if we are to build a fairer and more equal Wales, and so I very much welcome the Welsh Government's platform of wider initiatives on STEM and its response pledging to do more to get women into these priority sectors, including the clear expectation on progression pathways needed to close the gender pay gap, and the fair work commission agenda.

Indeed, just this morning, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee was hearing about the role of apprenticeships in tackling the gender pay gap through getting more women into predominantly male employment sectors such as engineering. It is right, and it is an expectation in Wales, that employers and apprentice providers adhere to the equality toolkit, which includes modules on gender identity, stereotyping and unconscious bias. This importance attached to ending the inequality and the gender pay gap is critical to the Welsh Government's calls for action, the economic action plan, and the economic contract, which the OECD and the World Economic Forum are exemplifying in Wales.

I also welcome the report's recommendation to do more to tackle the under-representation of disabled people in apprenticeships. The establishment of an inclusive apprenticeships working group, which will publish an apprenticeships disability action plan, is also a welcome development, and it is vital that we reduce the barriers currently preventing disabled people from accessing apprenticeships.

In an era of enforced austerity from the UK Tory Government, some barriers to accessing apprenticeships are also very much financial, including the report’s finding that transport to and from training or learning centres takes up to 20 per cent of apprentices' wages. Again, it is right that the Welsh Government has accepted in principle the committee’s recommendation to create a hardship fund for the apprentices on the lowest pay, or create other concessionary travel rates. I understand consultations are currently being reviewed on these issues, and that there are concerns that concessions to apprenticeships could amount to a taxable benefit. As such, I would like to ask if the Welsh Government has yet spoken to local authorities in Liverpool, Sheffield and the west midlands who have introduced similar schemes.

So, to conclude, I wish to commend the stance that Wales has taken in the provision of qualitative and targeted apprenticeships in Wales, and will continue to enhance them, I believe, for the future workforce and the future productivity of a fair Wales.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

I want to look at three particular areas—and I'm looking forward to hear the Minister’s comments on these three areas—starting with recommendation 1, relating to prejudice on the grounds of gender. Of course, unfortunately, some of the conclusions in the report aren't new to us, and certainly, in autumn of 2012, the Enterprise and Business Committee raised the importance of tackling these issues in order to expand access. A recommendation was accepted that the Welsh Government should monitor differences between genders in apprenticeships, the reasons for those differences, and to consider the possibility of setting targets for improving recruitment rates for women in apprenticeships in the priority sectors for the economy.

Accepted also, back in 2012, was the recommendation that training should be provided on gender equality for professionals in the field of careers and educating to correct any stereotyping in the advice that they give to young people. But, unfortunately, of course, over five years after publishing that report and accepting those recommendations, only 1.6 per cent of construction apprenticeships and 3.1 per cent of engineering apprenticeships are held by women, as opposed to 96 per cent of childcare and teaching and development apprenticeships and 91 per cent of hairdressing apprenticeships that are held by women. So, this does raise questions about the steps that have been taken by your Government over the past five years to get to grips with this issue, and it raises a question also about whether you will be genuinely taking action on the recommendations that have been made by this committee.

We discussed this morning, in the equality committee, the role that the economic contract can play in being used to try to get rid of some of these stereotypes. Even though this committee hasn’t considered this issue, I wonder what your comments would be. Could this contract be used with regard to apprenticeships as well to try to tackle some of the stereotypes on the basis of gender?

Secondly, I want to look at the aspect of the Welsh language and apprenticeships through the medium of the Welsh language. Again, the gap in the likely demand for apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh and the ability to meet that demand—. That isn’t unexpected either. The number of apprenticeships offered through the medium of Welsh has been extremely low for years. In 2014-15, only 0.3 per cent, or 140 apprenticeships, were completed through the medium of Welsh, out of well over 48,000 apprenticeships. The Welsh Government’s response to criticism of the situation was to change the way that the statistics are gathered, by publishing a figure for the number of apprenticeships with some element of bilingual teaching—and that could mean as little as introducing one bilingual resource to the students. Clearly, we need to get to grips with the situation in order to reach 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, and also to fill the gaps in skills in areas such as social care, where there is a need for Welsh speakers to provide services for Welsh speakers.

The decision to extend the responsibilities of the coleg Cymraeg to include further education colleges and workplace learning is to be welcomed, but we need a sufficient budget for that work and in order to increase the proportion of apprenticeships that are completed through the medium of Welsh.

Finally, and very quickly: even though the committee doesn't mention the apprenticeships levy from the point of view of the police—please forgive me for wandering into this field—it is a cause for concern because a year after the apprenticeships levy was introduced, it's still unclear who has the responsibility for the levy. My colleague the Member of Parliament for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Liz Saville Roberts, has received contradictory information—information from you that it's a matter that is reserved on a UK level, and information from the Minister for police also, which states that they're not responsible for police training. So, nobody's taking responsibility for training police, and nobody's taking responsibility for the apprenticeships, which would be very beneficial, of course, in this area. So, I would like to use this opportunity just to ask the Welsh Government to explain what's happening with apprenticeships for the police and the levy in that regard. Thank you.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I'm delighted to have this opportunity to speak in this debate today. I want to take this opportunity to thank the committee and all its members for this very important report. Despite not being a member of this committee, Members will know that I take a great interest in apprenticeships, having been an apprentice myself before entering the Assembly. With that in mind, I could spend great time today speaking about this issue, but in the interests of time, I want to focus my contribution on three main issues: one, apprentice trainers; two, automation; and, finally, emotional intelligence.

At age 17, at the start of the fourth Assembly—for Members who are interested—I started my apprenticeship at a local firm on Deeside industrial estate. That apprenticeship gave me the opportunity to work, learn and earn, and I am delighted that the Welsh Government has a commitment to creating a minimum of 100,000 high-quality apprenticeships in Wales over this Assembly term. With that said, I hope the Government looks seriously at the issue of trainers. We know that once an apprentice has served his or her time, it takes a few years to get the relevant experience as a fully served and skilled tradesperson. I want to take this point now to pay tribute to John Steele, who recently retired from my workplace—the workplace where I was fortunate to do my apprenticeship. He was my mentor, my friend, and his retirement raises so many serious questions about how we ensure firms across Wales have the people with relevant experiences and skills to train the next generation of apprentices.

Automation is another big issue that will impact on the type of apprenticeships that we will need in the future. Members will be aware of the recent statistics that were recently raised on this matter. They revealed that the proportion of jobs at risk of automation by the early 2030s in Wales varies from 26 per cent to over 36 per cent. My constituency in Alyn and Deeside was highlighted as the constituency that had the highest percentage of jobs at risk through automation, with 36 per cent. Now, I agree completely with the future generations of Wales commissioner when she says that, instead of asking what automation will take away from us, we should be asking how automation can help us improve our public services and the well-being of our lives and communities. We should be embracing automation as a huge economic opportunity, but at the same time ensure that we have a strategy for dealing with the risks of these technologies.

At this point now, it is important to recognise and highlight the importance of emotional intelligence. Now, we've all been here and we've all been there: you're ordering tickets to an event online, you're almost done, but that annoying screen pops up and makes you type some blurry letters and some numbers, right at the end, into a box. Now, this is a step, as most people know, to ensure that you are just a person buying a ticket to your favourite concert or football match, and you are not a computer programme deployed to grab a bunch of seats. Now, it's that level of emotional intelligence that will ensure the next generation of workers does not lose out as a result of automation. We urgently need to identify those who are most likely to be hardest hit by automation, and to develop targeted measures to help those people. That must include financial and psychological support, as well as the upskilling of the workforce.

Finally, in closing, I welcome the publication of this report and look forward to working with Members from across the Chamber as well as the Welsh Government in ensuring that we have high-skilled, well-paid, quality apprenticeships for our future generations in Wales. Diolch.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

We welcome the Welsh Government's generally good response to our report, though of course we are disappointed that it chose to reject some of our recommendations. The Enterprise, Innovation and Skills Committee's inquiry into apprenticeship delivery in Wales showed that there is now a consensus across both industry and the education sectors that apprenticeships have, for far too long, been a neglected element of our skills enhancement process. We are of course now reaping the results of this neglect in the emergence of a dearth of suitably qualified personnel required at all levels in both our business and public sectors. It is gratifying to note, however, that the education providers, both at further education and higher education levels, are now embracing this vital part of our economic base, and there really does appear to be a sea-change emphasis on making qualifications more applicable to business needs.

In order to alleviate this imbalance between the needs of the business and public sector and a suitably skilled workforce, there must be a greater emphasis on work-based skills enhancement, and an expansion of technical facilities in our colleges that are more aligned to the needs of the workplace. The evidence the committee gathered does suggest there is a strong apprenticeship base in Wales, but there are glaring deficiencies in some areas, particularly with regard to apprenticeships for the disabled, which figures show are much worse in Wales than in England. This must be an area of high priority for all those involved in the delivery of apprenticeships. We also found that Welsh-language based apprenticeships are not adequately provided for, where it appears that there is a distinct lack of suitably qualified teaching staff in Welsh-language apprenticeship frameworks.

One vitally important area where our inquiry has indicated deficiencies was in the provision of adequate information and pathways in our schools with regard to apprenticeship opportunities. It is now incumbent on all agencies, schools, colleagues and FE establishments to promote the pathways to vocational skills as an alternative to academic qualifications. Allied to this must be a greater involvement of business with the educational sector. Our inquiry did indicate the Welsh Government is putting policies in place to address these issues.

In order to ensure that we had the relevant numbers taking the apprenticeship route, it is absolutely vital that all agencies involved embark on a strategy to ensure that there is an equality of esteem between vocational and academic achievement. However, as the National Union of Students point out, there can be no equality of esteem between vocational and academic qualifications without equality of funding. This must be addressed as a priority by the Welsh Government.

In conclusion, the partnership between education and business is crucial to make sure we have the correct skills base to drive the Welsh economy forward in the twenty-first century.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I'll keep my contribution short, given that we're so pressed for time. I wanted to make the case for higher level apprenticeships and the fact that development of degree apprenticeships in Wales is at level 6. I think there are universities that are ready to provide degree-level apprenticeships at Master's level. I think that's a significant way forward that will, certainly from the evidence in England, suggest that degree-level apprenticeships will be taken up in STEM subjects by women who want to study those subjects, as well as amongst learners from areas of traditionally low participation in higher education. Therefore, a Master's progression is quite important.

I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted recommendations 9 and 10 regarding the need for clarity and security when it comes to the funding of degree apprenticeships. But I also think—. I'm concerned about the rejection of recommendation 12, which says that the universities are autonomously responsible for the design and delivery of their courses, but I would like an opportunity to scrutinise, in this Chamber or in committee, the roll-out of degree apprenticeships across Wales. I fear that if it is just left only to universities, they will do a good job, but the democratic accountability may well be missing. So, I think that's quite important.

I'd also like to pick up on a point made by Siân Gwenllian. I spoke to my predecessor yesterday, Jeff Cuthbert, my predecessor as an Assembly Member for Caerphilly—I'd say to the Chamber I've no plans to ever become a police and crime commissioner, but he is currently the police and crime commissioner for my region—and he raised that concern about the £2.8 million in apprenticeship levy that goes to the UK and the police service is unable to draw on it. It's a massively significant issue that doesn't happen in England and it is a controversial one. It is bizarre that the Treasury then expects the Welsh Government to fund vocational training in the police force and, therefore, I would urge the Minister and the Government to raise this with their counterparts in the UK. And, with that, I think I will draw my comments short, perhaps to give someone else the time to contribute.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

I welcome the committee report, which addresses issues regarding one of the greatest challenges facing the Welsh Government: how to address the skill gap in Wales. The British Chamber of Commerce's quarterly economic survey for the final quarter of 2017 indicates that skill shortages are reaching critical levels. Firms in the services and manufacturing sectors report difficulties in recruitment. They claim that the survey results emphasise the need to kick-start the economy by addressing the barriers to growth, in particular the growing skills gap that is hindering the ability of companies to find the workers that they need to develop. Commenting on results, the director general of the British Chamber of Commerce said:

'Labour and skills shortages are set to be the biggest potential drag anchor on business in 2018, since ultimately it is people that make businesses work.'

Having skills can greatly add to a worker's potential earning in Wales because skilled workers are in such short supply here. I am concerned that the Welsh Government is failing to promote the benefits that apprenticeships can bring to students at early stages. Career information in schools about apprenticeships is vital if we are to increase the supply of trained workers that our economy desperately needs. The committee notes issues with the quality and availability of careers advice, including the lack of trained careers advisers, and the lack of knowledge of apprenticeships and vocational training among school staff. Schools also exhibit a tendency of encouraging pupils towards the study of A-levels. Further education and work-based learning organisations need greater access to schools to broaden the range of advice that young people receive about their future prospects. By doing so, I am confident that this will go some way to tackling the worrying gender imbalance and under-representation of disabled people that we currently see in apprenticeships in Wales.

Having encouraged young people to take up an apprenticeship, we must now look at the level of support we provide them with. There is substantial evidence that financial barriers, such as transport costs, are discouraging and, in some cases, preventing young people from taking up apprenticeships. The committee calls on Welsh Government to create a competitive hardship fund for apprentices on the lowest pay level or to create other concessions, such as concessionary bus or rail cards as already exist for some students in other parts of the United Kingdom. In October last year, the Welsh Conservatives pledged to give free bus travel and a third off the cost of rail tickets to all 16 to 24-year-olds in Wales. Last month, Jeremy Corbyn announced plans to give under-25s in England free bus travel. So, it would be ironic indeed if we in Wales, the only nation in the United Kingdom where Labour is in power, denied our young people the support they need to access the skills needed to build our future economy.

I would like to say a few words about digital skills in Wales also. Nearly half of all small businesses in Wales lack the business digital skills that could help them to improve productivity and save costs. One of the barriers holding Welsh firms back from doing more online is a lack of staff with digital skills. Deputy Presiding Officer, I believe the recommendation in this report represents a potential major step forward in boosting the number of apprenticeships and providing Wales with the skilled workforce that is needed now and in the future.

In Wales, Deputy Presiding Officer, I have learned to fly, and I know people 20 years ago used to go for vocational training to get their pilot licence. I'm pretty sure a number of world airlines must be employing those pilots, those who are actually not doing other things—they became pilots and serve their nations. If the Conservatives come into power, there are a couple of areas we shall certainly do: gender, age and NEETs—not in education, training or employment. These people, we'll make sure they will learn for their full potential in life according to their aptitude test. We must have some sort of system in the education department to make sure that our children grow and achieve their full potential in life, according to their aptitude and ability in life, no matter whether able, disabled, man, woman, young or old. They will all be equal in the eyes of the Conservative Party. Thank you.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

As a member of the committee, I was very pleased to take part in this inquiry, and I'll keep my contribution short and focus on a few recommendations. Firstly, recommendation 6, which calls for a competitive hardship fund for apprentices, and also for the extension of concessions such as travel schemes to apprentices too. That, I feel, links in with recommendation 7, which calls for the establishment of a universal grant to cover living costs for all apprentices.

I think they cover different aspects of a single challenge, and that is ensuring parity between apprentices and students, between the vocational and the academic. The evidence that we took from witnesses on this was very clear. The Construction Industry Training Board, the south west and mid Wales regional skills partnership and the Federation of Small Businesses all agreed that much more work needed to be done in this area. The FSB noted that support for university students was predicated on equivalency with the living wage, but that that is currently not the case for apprenticeship funding.

Clearly, financial hardships are a barrier preventing people from more disadvantaged backgrounds from taking up apprenticeships. So, there is a need to make provision so that economic barriers are not the sole factor dissuading potential applicants. Moreover, there is the need, as others have said, to promote parity of esteem between study in higher education and apprenticeships. Countries like Germany do this so well and if we could have that shift in this country, it would be a wonderful thing.

I know that the Welsh Government has accepted both of these recommendations in principle and that work is ongoing. I look forward to future updates from Ministers so we can ensure that our apprentices do get a fair deal and do get parity of esteem.

I'd like to finally briefly consider recommendation 3. This sets out our finding that more support should be provided to employers so that they can raise awareness about the benefits of apprenticeships amongst a wider cross-section of young people. I feel personally it's unfortunate that the Welsh Government has rejected this recommendation. I note the range of mechanisms by which they currently make available information on the benefits of apprenticeships and the various engagement devices outlined in the Welsh Government’s response to recommendation 14 too.

However, from my background in secondary education, I know that far too often our young people are really not fully aware of the range of apprenticeships that are out there, or the benefits that they can bring to their career development. Often, responsibility for conveying this message falls onto teachers. With so many pressures already on the school timetable, it is not always possible for teachers to gain the expertise they need to understand and therefore adequately promote the benefits of modern apprenticeships. Employers who take on apprentices, who may be former apprentices themselves, are surely better placed to champion the opportunities in this career path; to explain the benefits and challenges inherent in choosing a non-university pathway; and also to note the possibilities of success in that area too, just like our colleague Jack Sargeant. So, I would hope that more work could be done in this area. Thank you.