Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 19 September 2018

268 contributions from 45 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and the first question is from Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government plans to publish new statutory guidance for school uniforms? OAQ52592

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The Welsh Government will undertake a 12-week public consultation this autumn on school uniform and appearance policies. New updated and strengthened statutory guidance will come into force from September 2019.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I note the comments in your recent statement about encouraging the parents and carers of eligible children to apply for pupil deprivation grant access funding for school uniform in particular. But I'm concerned that lots of those eligible for this are missing out. From my own personal experience locally, the way in which this information is communicated to parents is patchy and its effectiveness is variable. So, how is the Welsh Government encouraging councils and schools to promote this fund to students, particularly prior to the start of a new academic year?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Vikki. As you'll be aware, for the first time ever this autumn term, assistance with the cost of school uniform is available not just for children entering into high school at year 7, but also for our youngest pupils beginning their school journey. The grant is also available to cover other costs associated with school, not just school uniform, such as PE kit and other school-day essentials. I will continue to work with local authorities to ensure that parents have the right information so that they can make a positive application to receive this funding, because we want all children who are eligible to have this assistance.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Following on from that, Cabinet Secretary, of course you will be aware of various stories at the beginning of school term of children being punished for not having the correct school uniform. I absolutely buy into the notion that we want all the children to look the same, and it's very important for school discipline and school morale, and so on. But one of the concerns I have is this view that we should punish the child for something that the parent has done. And I'm deeply concerned that—. It runs across not just school uniforms—I know Caroline Jones raised the issue not long ago with you about the child who couldn't go to the prom because she had Asperger's and couldn't get the grades. I've raised with you in the past the child who was punished because they had a chronic ill-health issue so they couldn't attend all the time, but the punishment was meted on the child, rather than the schools looking at the individuals concerned. Will you have another look at this, because of this school uniform issue, and about how we might proportionally represent, or proportionally treat children, and divide between those who don't do things they should do because they just don't feel like it and those who are put in an awkward position because of decisions made by parents and carers, because I think we're giving out the wrong message to these young people about responsibility?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Angela, school uniform policy is ultimately a matter for individual schools and their governing bodies, and it is for headteachers to decide what action to take when pupils infringe a school uniform policy. However, Welsh Government expects that, if the reason for that infringement is because families are in financial difficulties, schools should allow an appropriate amount of time for the required item to be purchased, for there to be some flexibility in the system, and not to be able to penalise that child. The guidance also highlights what financial assistance is available to families to assist in the purchase of school uniforms. A crucial part of any successful school is ongoing dialogue between headteachers, teaching staff, and their parents. But, ultimately, it is a matter for the governance of that school to decide what punishment, if any, is appropriate if there are infringements of that school's rules.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

I welcome the u-turn performed by the Welsh Government earlier this year on its plans to scrap the school uniform grant, because when household budgets remain squeezed, particularly in my constituency of the Rhondda, going ahead with that would have been unthinkable. Now, around the time that these ill-advised plans were announced, I surveyed local schools in my constituency to see what their school uniform policy was, and I found that policy varied from school to school, with some insisting on the purchase of expensive items, with logos, and others being much more flexible. Like the Bevan Foundation, I'd like to see statutory guidance include a requirement for all schools to adopt a uniform that can be more generic and therefore lower cost. With this in mind, will you pay careful attention to the high annual cost of school uniform for families, and seek to provide an alternative solution for all when you issue your statutory guidance?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, as I said in answer to Vikki Howells's initial question, the Government will go out to public consultation for 12 weeks this autumn on a new school uniform and appearance policy. The strengthened statutory guidance, I hope, will come into force for the start of the new academic year, and crucially, as part of that consultation, we will look to address issues of affordability and of giving flexibility to parents. So, for instance, when deciding on a school uniform for a high school, could there be some consideration as to the nature of the colour of some of the primary schools in that area? It doesn't seem necessary that you should have to discard a perfectly good pair of trousers or a school skirt when you transfer to the high school just because you're moving to a different school. So, there are lots of ways in which we can address issues of affordability and that is the purpose of the consultation and my determination to introduce statutory guidance in this area.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Cabinet Secretary, I was really pleased to see the announcement that you're going to be consulting on statutory guidance, because, as you know, the existing policy document is actually very good and places a lot of emphasis on generic uniform. But most schools, I would contend, are not actually following that guidance as they should be, and I'm sure you'll have seen the coverage earlier this month of children being kept in a hall for not being in branded trousers, which is totally unacceptable. So, what assurances can you offer that you are going to take a very robust approach to this? But very importantly, how will you ensure that the voices of children and young people are heard through this consultation?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Lynne, as you've rightly identified, there is existing guidance. That was published in September 2013, but it is not of a statutory nature. The reason why I'm determined to address that issue is so that we can put on a legislative footing our expectations of governing bodies who will have to have due regard to the guidance when developing their own policies. This also gives us the opportunity not just to look at the issue of affordability in school uniform but at some of the issues that were perhaps not discussed in 2013, such as gender-neutral uniforms. This now gives us an opportunity to discuss those issues, and, clearly, the views of the children and young people will be crucial during the public consultation, and we will be ensuring that there are opportunities for young people to feed in so that they can tell us how they feel about the issue of school uniform and the role it plays in their school lives.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2 [OAQ52569] has been withdrawn. Question 3, therefore, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the advice the Welsh Government currently provides to local authorities in relation to rural school closures? OAQ52595

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to protect rural schools? OAQ52599

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Andrew. Presiding Officer, I understand that you have given your permission for question 3 and question 5 to be grouped.

The school organisation code, made under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, imposes requirements on Welsh Ministers, local authorities and governing bodies in respect of school organisation and provides guidance to which they must have regard when considering the closure of any school, including those in a rural setting.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. Just before the summer recess, you issued new guidance in relation to rural schools—something that was welcomed. Obviously, that guidance will come into effect later on in the year. I'd be grateful to understand what weight local authorities should place on that specific guidance that you've put out there, at the moment. As I understand, it hasn't been incorporated into the code, but many authorities—and I think of one in the Vale of Glamorgan—are deciding on school closures as we speak, and it is important that there isn't a rush to shut many vulnerable schools before this new guidance comes into the code. So, could you indicate what weight you, as the Cabinet Secretary, place on the note that you put out just before the summer recess, please?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Andrew, as you've recognised, we are revising the code. The draft code that has been revised to reflect the consultation responses—the consultation that took place last year—was laid before the Assembly on Monday of this week. As is required by the 2013 Act, the code has to be laid for 40 days, following which it may come into force unless the Assembly resolves not to approve it. Therefore, I would expect the new code to come into force on 1 November, colleagues around this Chamber willing. We have been very clear to local authorities about the direction of policy travel in this area and I would expect them to be cognisant of that when they're making any decisions about the future of a rural school that would be listed under the new code.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, I've heard, in relation to the proposed transfer/closure of Llancarfan Primary School, which my colleague has just referred to, that the issue of access to the school building programme requires schools, often, to be built on new sites and schools to be consolidated or expanded. This is a real problem for schools in rural communities, where there may be a constrained site, no alternative available and where money is not available for adaptation—you've just got to go with a comprehensive new build—and this restricts the choices that local authorities have, especially when they want to increase the viability of our smaller, rural schools. Will you look at the building programme?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

First of all, can I say that it is not a requirement of the twenty-first century schools programme, to access that money, to have a completely new build? In fact, I have been to refurbishment projects the length and breadth of this country where twenty-first century schools programme money has been used to refurbish part of a school—in fact, in your new leader's constituency not so long ago. So, this idea that you could only access that money if you build a brand new school from scratch is a fallacy. That is not correct.

Each case that is put forward by our partners in local government is judged on its merits. What I do understand, with regard to the issue that I know was exercising the mind of both Andrew and you, and the Assembly Member for the Vale of Glamorgan, is the case of Llancarfan. The decision that was taken at a meeting, I believe, on Monday of this week, is that the consultation that the Vale has gone out to is now to be referred to their scrutiny committee, and they are to allow the members of that scrutiny committee to look at the proposals that the Vale of Glamorgan Council has come forward with—which I welcome—and it will ultimately be a matter for those who run the Vale of Glamorgan Council to make a decision on the future of that school.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I think my views on supporting rural schools are well known. I sympathise with councils in all parts of Wales that face impossible budgetary scenarios and I do think that the Government has to secure adequate funding to support innovative methods of keeping schools in our communities and providing support to create multi-site area schools, which is something that I support. One element that puts pressure on education budgets, as we’ve heard, is the backlog of maintenance work, and I hear what you say as Cabinet Secretary, but, without doubt, the trend is there in the twenty-first century schools programme towards building new, larger schools, which don’t necessarily work in rural areas. So, can you, as Cabinet Secretary, give a commitment to seek a new package of finance that is substantial and specifically for this purpose, so that the condition of a school building in rural Wales isn’t such a strong driver when it comes to making decisions on the future of schools?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Again, Presiding Officer, I would have to challenge the implication by the Member that twenty-first century schools is only available for new buildings. Again, I have been to schools in the Member's own constituency—to refurbishment projects—where investment has been used to improve facilities at a school.

With regard to additional resources for rural schools, the Member will be aware that we will be making additional resources of some £10 million over this Assembly available through our new small and rural schools grant to encourage innovation and support greater school-to-school working to address issues and some of the practical difficulties of delivering education in a rural area—money that his own council has been made aware of and has applied for and is being utilised.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, I've read the code that was laid on Monday. In it, it has a designation of rural schools for the purpose of presumption against closure, and it uses the Office for National Statistics' rural and urban classification, which I accept, and that's why the list on the back is there. But when you then go and look at the extra, detailed requirements, I ask the question: why aren't they applicable to all schools, because actually, those extra requirements should be applicable to every single school that's being considered for closure? The local authority in my area has designated the closure of Cymer Afan Comprehensive School, but the detailed, conscientious study that is required, particularly around community impact, has to be applied to every single school. Will you look at this and say that it's not just for rural schools and that this should be for every school?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, David, you will be aware that the regulations and the code set out a very stringent set of criteria that local authorities must apply when looking to close any school. It was important to me, and I feel it is important to many rural communities given the nature of rural life, that an added protection is made available to schools that serve a rural community. If we're to have a presumption against the closure of those schools then we have to have a list and we have to have an honest and open, transparent criteria as to how a school gets on the list. We have used, as you stated, the Office for National Statistics urban/rural classification to do that. As a result of the consultation, we have expanded the categories of schools that will be covered by the rural list to include more schools than were initially envisaged by this Government. But when considering the future of any school, the rest of the code applies and my expectation is that any local authority would apply that code rigorously, which looks at the community impact any school closure may have, whether that school closure be in a rural or in a more urban area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you, Llywydd. One of the main action points under the theme 2, 'Increasing the use of Welsh', in your 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy, relates to the central role of the workplace in reaching the target of seeing 20 per cent of the population using the Welsh language on a daily basis. You recognise the crucial role that the Welsh Government has, as an important employer in Wales, in that regard and commit that you as a Government, and I quote, will

ensure that Welsh Government leads by example by promoting and facilitating increased use of Welsh by our own workforce.'

Can you give us an update on that work?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, of course, we do encourage members of staff working for Welsh Government to learn Welsh, and there are many opportunities for them to do so, but there is an internal report that is being further developed looking at how we as a Government will respond to the requirements of 2050. I met with the Permanent Secretary yesterday to discuss that.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. I have a copy of a report that demonstrates that you do have an internal working group of senior civil servants that has been established, as you said, and that was back in the summer of 2016. The report recommends that the Welsh Government civil service should commit to becoming a bilingual organisation, with Welsh and English as official administrative languages by 2036. As part of that, your civil servants have come to the conclusion that a level of what is called courtesy Welsh or basic Welsh should be a requirement for all posts within the Welsh Government as a starting point. Now, we’re in agreement up until that point. There are a number of organisations, including the Assembly Commission, South Wales Police and Carmarthenshire council, that have introduced a courtesy model that is similar, which would require bilingual skills—at a very fundamental level, or a basic level, such as enunciating Welsh words correctly and giving simple greetings such as 'bore da', 'prynhawn da', 'hwyl fawr' and so on and so forth. But, last month, in a letter to me, the Permanent Secretary said that the Welsh Government has no plans to introduce a very basic courtesy level of this kind and to make it mandatory. So, a year and a half since your expert panel recommended that, why hasn’t the Welsh Government been able to commit to implementing these fundamental measures and isn’t it about time that the Government led by example?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thank you very much. As I said, I met with the Permanent Secretary to discuss this exact same matter yesterday. Part of what was recommended in the report involves definitions of exactly what is meant by whichever level of Welsh language proficiency we’re talking about, and I think we need to talk about that further. There are ways of doing that. We must get a better understanding of that. But I do know that she has requested that more work is undertaken on this issue and that will then appertain to the way in which we are going to ensure that our aim of attaining our aim of attaining a million speakers will be an integral part of what we're doing within Welsh Government.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

So, it'll be another year and a half, it seems, until we get a definition of something that is entirely clear and simple, namely exactly what courtesy Welsh is. I've just given examples: things such as saying, 'bore da', 'prynhawn da', and being able to say Welsh words correctly. That's all it is. It's a very basic level of skills, the lowest level of Welsh language skills. So, I can't understand why it's taken quite so long to introduce this. The only thing that I can think is that the will isn't there to make progress here and that that is what is underpinning this and that you as a Government are not willing to show that clear example, which is so necessary.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, we haven't actually received this paper officially as yet, because it hasn't been signed off by the Permanent Secretary as yet. So, we have to wait until that report is issued, and then we will take the political decision as to whether we wish to continue with that system or whether we want to take it further.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. First of all, can I just thank Paul Davies for appointing me to this new position? I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to it. I hope the Cabinet Secretary won't mind if I start with something of personal interest and return to rural schools, bearing in mind the experience of my own family over the last 15 years or so.

I can see that the consultation on these changes, and of course other changes to the code—we mustn't forget that—was held over a year ago, pretty much during the summer holiday period of 2017. How did your department comply with its obligation to give due regard to article 12 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child in the course of the consultation?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Presiding Officer, could I take this opportunity to welcome Suzy Davies to her new role? I look forward to working with her. And I take this opportunity to thank Darren for the working relationship that we have had—[Laughter.]

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

That's the first time that's ever happened. [Laughter.]

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The truth about Darren Millar is that his bark is worse than his bite. While we have exchanged jibes here over the dispatch box, behind the scenes it's quite easy to work together and do business.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

You're too kind—[Interruption.] [Laughter.]

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

You're shattering our illusions.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Come on, you've done enough damage to my reputation. Please move on. [Laughter.]

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I say to Suzy Davies that I know that she and I both share a passion for improving the standards of rural education, recognising that rural schools have an important part to play, not just in the education of rural children but in the wider community. In many rural locations, the school is the last standing public building in that location, and therefore we need to do what we can to support them. With regard to the consultation, I'm satisfied that, in carrying out that consultation last year, Welsh Government was consistent with all requirements that were placed upon them.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, thank you for that answer and for your very kind words, of course. I have to say, though, that the majority of responses that came in on the consultation were from councils, diocesan bodies and unions, and the children's voice was represented solely, it would seem to me anyway, by the children's commissioner, and I'm not quite sure how she managed to get the information or views of young people during that period, bearing in mind that it was their school holidays.

I'd be especially keen to know, actually, how those young people grappled with the national statistics office's urban/rural classification, which David Rees was talking about earlier. Certainly, a third of the adults who responded to the consultation weren't happy with adopting just one of the eight classifications in this method of identifying a rural school. But then it took nine months to report back to them with a longer list of schools, adding in that second classification to aid identification. And the stated audience for that report, released only on 2 July of this year, comprised local authorities, governing bodies, diocesan authorities, Estyn and some others with interest. No clear route to children's views or, indeed, school staff, as it was issued once again shortly before the summer school holiday.

You laid the new code on Monday, so at least that wasn't during the summer break, but the 16 months it has taken this to come into force hasn't given local education authorities a chance to sneak under the wire of a stringent regime; you've given them over a year to accelerate consideration of the very types of closure you rightly hoped to avoid. And I can tell you with my experience of the closure of Cwrt Sart, which isn't a rural school, that local authorities may be cognisant of a direction of travel, but they can be very, very determined to ignore it if they wish. So, can you tell us why it took nine months to report back on just 70 surveys, and why in June 2017 you didn't ask education authorities to pause any closure plans they may have been considering pending these material changes?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Suzy, the purpose of the consultation is to seek as wide a range of views as possible. In the choice that I had as the Minister, I could have ignored the results of the consultation and laid the code earlier or I could have taken on board the comments that were made in the consultation that the list of schools wasn't long enough, and therefore ignore that and just plough on. I took the decision that I would rather delay the implementation of the code so that we could have a longer list of schools, so that we could respond positively to the points that have been made in the consultation. Otherwise, why have the consultation at all if I was determined to plough on ahead with the initial proposals? The reason why the second consultation was a limited one was because I felt it was only fair to those local authorities who, perhaps, had not responded to the first consultation because they felt they weren't affected by it because they had no schools on the list, but they would suddenly find themselves with schools on the list. I thought it was only fair to our partners in local government that they had an opportunity to respond to a policy that would now affect them if they were labouring under the misapprehension that previously the policy didn't affect them. The code has been laid as soon as it can under the proper Standing Orders here at the National Assembly for Wales, and I've been quite clear since I took up this office of my determination to support and protect rural schools as much as possible. But we have to be realistic: even with this code, that does not mean that all rural schools will remain open, but the case for closing them has to be strong, and local authorities in those areas, if they have a school that's on the list, should start on the basis that closure is the last option and they should seek every opportunity through a variety of ways to keep those schools open.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, thank you for that answer. It takes nine months to produce a child; I hoped it would have been a bit quicker to produce a code. The school standards Act and the rights of children and young persons Measure aren't the only pieces of legislation that are relevant to school reorganisation; the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is now in force, and I'm pleased to say that in the course of these changes—and, in fact, you referred to this earlier as well—you have said more than once that the existence of a small school in a community can be material to the sustainability of that community. At what point should an education authority consider the principles of the future generations Act? Is it during the process of deciding whether or not to go ahead and consult on a school closure, or is it during any consultation itself?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, all local authorities are subject to the legislation that was passed here by a previous Assembly. What is really important is that they use the provisions of the future generations Act to inform their actions at the earliest opportunity, and I would argue, under the code that has been laid and hopefully will come into force in November, if nobody prays against it, that that presumption against a closure and the option to seek alternatives to keeping a school open, again, should not be left to the official consultation period, but should be employed by the council before they make any decision to go out to consultation on the future of the school. Because you and I both know that once you start that official consultation process, that can blight an individual educational establishment. So, it's very clear that the local authority should use this code and consider the presumption even before they go to a formal consultation and they should take into their consideration their obligations under the future generations and well-being Act at that point.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. In August, the Children’s Commissioner for Wales, Sally Holland, said she believes change is not happening quickly enough to safeguard children who are educated at home. This comes after two cases in as many years of children having been neglected, one of whom sadly died as a result. Can you tell me what you've been doing to safeguard children who are home schooled?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

First of all, I would just caution the Member to make a direct correlation between the decision for parents to home educate and that, potentially, leading to a child being unsafe. I think that is a point of principle we need to start from: there is not a read-across in that situation. Since I made my statement to the Chamber previously about my intention to go out to consultation on the establishment of a database and enhanced support for parents who choose home education—that consultation will happen in this autumn term.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. On the point of the principle of whether children are safe with their parents, I would completely agree with you—we shouldn't be approaching this from the point of view that children are inherently at risk with their parents. However, Sally Holland has identified a risk. There is obviously a risk because one child who was being home schooled, who was then anonymous to the authorities, ended up dying. Now, I acknowledge that you've announced the establishment of a database to identify children not on the school register, but this falls well short of what the children's commissioner asked for when she said, and I quote:

'I've been calling for the government to act in a stronger way, so have all the directors of education in Wales, all the directors of social services and the government's own independent safeguarding board.'

She went on to say, and, again, I quote:

'For me the pace of change has been too slow and hasn't been strong enough to ensure every child gets the right to an education to be safe and to have their say.'

Is she right?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The commissioner, of course, will have every opportunity to formally comment on the Government's proposals when we go out to consultation. Let me be absolutely clear with the Member: what I am preparing to do is part of our educational reform journey in ensuring that every child is in receipt of suitable education. Any safeguarding issues that arise out of that are incidental and I think it is really, really important for Members to be clear that, even with the establishment of a database, that does not remove the need for all professionals to remain vigilant when dealing with their children, and to remember that that database will only apply to children who are of a compulsory school age, which begins at the age of five. Therefore, if a parent is determined to keep their child away from services, this proposal will only kick in when a child turns five, and I think it is also important to remember that there are limitations—naturally there are limitations—with this proposal if you are looking to ensure that all children are seen at all ages of their lives.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. I am rather surprised that you would think that safeguarding a child would be peripheral to anything, but I'll move slightly on.

Can you tell me if you've had any conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for health over a way that home-schooled children can receive similar or the same medical checks that children schooled in a normal school would be offered?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Actually, only this morning I had a meeting with the chief nursing officer to understand how, as part of our enhanced package of support for those parents who choose to home educate, we can ensure that those children have access to some of the health services that they would normally receive in school. So, for many of us—you'll be aware that, if you have teenage children, they'll have vaccinations whilst at secondary school. So, only this morning, I was discussing with the chief nursing officer the issue of vaccination hubs so that children who are educated at home can have access to those services.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the proposed growth in Welsh-medium education? OAQ52574

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I was pleased that an additional £46 million capital funding was announced this morning to support an array of projects to facilitate the expansion of Welsh-medium education. We were really pleased with the quality of the bids we received, which means that local authorities really have grasped this now and have understood that this is the direction of travel that we'd like to move in.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you for that answer. I wasn't aware of what happened this morning, obviously. But if it is intended to create 1 million Welsh speakers, the route most likely to be successful is to increase the number of children attending Welsh-medium schools. I know from personal experience, as do others in this Chamber, just how difficult it is to learn Welsh as an adult. This would mean approximately a third of children in Wales attending Welsh-medium education—somewhere between 30 and 33 per cent, I would calculate. If the Minister's got a different calculation, I'd like to know it, but that's what I come out with. How is this going to be achieved?

And will the Minister visit two schools in my constituency that I know well—Ysgol Gymraeg Tan-y-Lan, where my granddaughters attend, and Ysgol Gyfun Bryn Tawe, which my daughter used to attend in my constituency, both of which have grown dramatically since they were first opened?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Mike. I think it's really apposite that you've asked this question this afternoon when we are really moving ahead on this agenda. The fact is that, as a result of that announcement today, we're going to see almost 3,000 new places in Welsh schools, and that is the way I think we're going to start to reach this target that we've set out, which is an ambitious target. There are 16 local authorities who have gained money through this initiative, and I think the fact that we've also married this money up with money from my colleague's budget to do with childcare—. So, you need a pipeline—you need to see these children come through the system, and the earlier we can introduce them to Welsh language education the better, and that's why we've combined this money in order to move this agenda.

This morning, I've been to Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw in Torfaen, where they will now be opening a new Welsh language primary. I'm pleased to see that that will be happening. And there will be a new Welsh language primary also in Merthyr, which we're thrilled to see, but also in Monmouth. So, things are moving on in areas where we really want to see that initiative being taken, so we're very pleased with the direction of travel and the fact that local authorities really understand that we are serious about moving forward on this agenda.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

The 14-19 learning pathways—this is for you, Minister—that entitles young people in Wales, as you know, to study the subjects they want, even if it's not in their own school and they can go to a nearby school. However, the funding that previously went from Welsh Government to local authorities to enable that has been combined with other funding grants, which has made it difficult to follow the money. So, I'm hoping that today's very welcome announcement, which is also to be combined with other moneys, isn't going to be difficult to follow, and that we don't end up in a situation where this ends up in local authorities' general capital budgets. How can we be certain that the entitlement created in the 14-19 pathway is being observed in the Welsh-medium sector, where distance between schools can be pretty big? And, obviously, there are financial considerations as well. How will the announcement of this new capital help with the 14-19 pathways delivery? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, just to be clear: this money is very, very clearly earmarked. It's ring-fenced. It is specifically for the growth of Welsh language education, so there's no question about it going into any general pots. This has been very, very clearly targeted. That learning pathway—we've made it clear that we want to see schools working together if they are not able to deliver that locally themselves, and that co-ordination we are helping to develop, in particular in rural areas now. We've got a new pilot we're going to start—[Inaudible.]—where we're starting to do a bit more distance learning. I think that is a very interesting development, particularly, that we're going to be piloting in the Ceredigion and Powys area.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the provision of play facilities in local schools? OAQ52581

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Janet. All children and young people should be able to access a wide choice of play provision in their local environment and community. The Welsh Government is working with local authorities to encourage schools to make their facilities available for wider community use and benefit.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. A number of constituents have approached me recently about a recently announced withdrawal of playground facilities at their own school, without any explanation from the local authority. Now, set this against a background of a 35 per cent real-terms cut in local government expenditure for play and recreational facilities, the £15,000—that's all—repair bill required to actually repair this play facility before autumn half term is unaffordable. Now, the Welsh Government's play policy 2002 states that

'Play is the elemental learning process'.

So, can you explain why school play facilities across Wales are being so lamentably underfunded? And how are you working with your partners in the Welsh Government, in their Cabinet positions, to ensure that money is provided to schools so that our children can literally go out and play?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

If the Member was to write to me about the specifics of that particular school facility, then I will make some enquiries. It is a matter for the governing body to make decisions about access to those facilities outside of the school day, and to maintain the upkeep of those facilities, and rather than—. The Member paints a picture of these facilities being lost. I would remind her: in her own constituency, I opened the new Ysgol Awel y Mynydd school, which included landscaped school grounds, with a sports area and space for pupils to explore and learn in their natural habitat. I opened the refurbishment projects of Ysgol Sŵn y Don and Ysgol Nant y Groes, and that has meant that pupils of both schools have benefited from third generation multi-use games areas and improved areas. So, in her own constituency, she can see the effect of Welsh Government investment on the ground providing those important facilities, but I will make some enquiries about that specific case if the Member were to write to me.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I know the Cabinet Secretary for Education will agree that it's essential that we allow children of all abilities to enjoy the pleasure of play facilities, and we also know that disabled children have fewer opportunities certainly to take part in physical education and sports activities. So, what plans are there for play equipment in schools, or indeed any play equipment, to ensure that it is accessible for children with disabilities?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Julie. Whilst I don't have responsibility for play equipment in general, obviously we would want our schools to be inclusive schools and to have facilities that allowed all of their pupils to have full access to the opportunity for play and recreation, and indeed to be able to deliver the statutory part of the curriculum that means that physical education should be delivered to all pupils aged seven to 16. We want all pupils, regardless of their ability, to be able to access those opportunities, as it's a statutory part. But if the Member has concerns about any specifics, I would make the same offer as I have made to Janet Finch-Saunders: I'm happy to look into any instances where the Member feels that that is not actually happening.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on rates of pay for supply teachers? OAQ52591

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Hefin. School governing bodies and local authorities are responsible for employing, deploying and managing the school workforce. Supply teachers employed directly by schools and local authorities are paid in accordance with nationally agreed pay rates. Teachers employed by private supply agencies are paid according to the terms of their employment contract.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

The Cabinet Secretary visited the Children, Young People and Education Committee on 28 June, and I asked her questions about supply teachers. One of the things she said in the committee was:

'Much of the focus recently has been about low pay for supply teachers. I was recently exposed to the argument about schools that are using supply teachers to cover some of our science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects, where those supply teachers are naming their price, and are talking about, on a basic level, £250 a day to go and teach physics.'

I asked her for the details, and she said:

'we don't necessarily have all that data.'

Well, I would say that I don't think there is significant data on this. The 2018 national education supply teachers survey found that the worst-paid areas were once again Wales and the south-west, with 87 per cent and 93 per cent of respondents respectively being paid less than £125 per day. Indeed, the survey said that three quarters of respondents from Wales receive a daily rate of less than £100. Can I ask her to commit to not using that £250 example again, because I think it doesn't give the full picture, and will she commit to getting a better deal for supply teachers?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I am very anxious that all teachers working in our system are treated fairly and paid appropriately. I am more than aware of the concerns that have been expressed around pay rates associated with those people who are employed by agencies. You will be aware, I hope, that we are working very closely with the MPS Education in preparation for any new tendering process that they will undertake in the spring of this year, so that the framework that they offer is fit for purpose and incorporates the principles endorsed by the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains and fair work principles.

We are also looking to introduce mandatory quality assurance standards for supply agencies so that any commercial agency wishing to supply temporary teachers to maintained schools in Wales would need to meet certain requirements, and standards would support schools and supply teachers, I believe, and drive up quality of teaching and learning opportunities for students. So, we are examining a whole raft of ways in which we can ensure that all teachers who work in our schools on a part-time or on a supply basis are treated fairly and paid appropriately.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, madam Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, campaigners claim that supply teachers in Wales are having to take an extra job to make ends meet, and many are considering leaving the profession altogether. They claim the employment of supply teachers through agencies has led to lower pay and poorer terms and conditions. The Welsh Government has set up an independent taskforce to make recommendations in this regard. Will the Cabinet Secretary advise this Assembly now when she will be in a position to make a proposal based on the taskforce recommendations, please?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Not only is that taskforce engaging with the Fair Deal for Supply Teachers group, officials are also meeting with that group of teachers who are campaigning on this issue. As I said to Hefin David, we are looking at a range of options that will address the concerns that the Member has expressed.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

9. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote emotional well-being in schools? OAQ52601

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Jayne. We are committed to a step change when it comes to mental and emotional well-being in schools, and to achieve this we are convening a ministerial task and finish group, chaired by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services and myself, to consider a whole-school approach.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Emotional well-being, resilience and early intervention must be a national priority and I welcome the recent announcement of a whole-school approach, the need for which was highlighted in the Children, Young People and Education Committee's excellent 'Mind over Matter' report. The committee received evidence from the Samaritans, who've created DEAL—a developing emotional awareness and listening tool for teachers. It will be essential that emotional and mental health awareness is included in initial teacher training qualifications. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the new task and finish group will speak to teachers who use the DEAL tool to see what can be learnt from their experiences?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I thank Jayne for her welcome for the establishment of the task and finish group. Work has already begun. A multi-agency and multiprofession workshop took place on 7 September to explore what a whole-school approach could involve, and to highlight where in current support there are gaps at present. The findings from the workshop will further inform the work of the task and finish group, and I would expect the task and finish group to want to take advice and evidence from a wide range of stakeholders who will have something to say on this important agenda.

'Our national mission' places the well-being of the child at the heart of our education system, and central to this will be new and inclusive school accountability arrangements that are being put in place that acknowledge not only the academic achievements of the school, but also the importance of the learner's health and well-being.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

May I ask the Cabinet Secretary about the work of the task and finish group? What progress is being made to ensure that when people in school, often counsellors, make referrals of particular children to child and adolescent mental health services that those referrals are properly taken back, and are not, as some of the evidence we found as the Children, Young People and Education Committee, being referred back as if the counsellor was not an appropriate person to make that referral?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Mark, the announcement of the group has only recently been made. As I said, the work of that group was kicked off by the multi-agency and multiprofession workshop, because before we can design a service that represents a whole-school approach we need to have an agreement on what the whole-school approach actually looks like, so that we're all working towards the same agenda. We work across portfolio, and officials that worked on the 'Together for Children and Young People' plan are constantly looking at barriers to accessing more intensive and higher level CAMHS services for children, because if a counsellor has seen that child, has a relationship with that child, and feels that more intensive therapy and support is available, then that's almost like a triage system that should ensure a swift referral and a response from CAMHS. We will continue to remove those barriers, if schools counsellors are facing them, so that process can be as quick as it needs to be for that individual child.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Mohammad Asghar.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve services for stroke survivors in south-east Wales? OAQ52582

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Our stroke delivery plan provides a framework for action by health boards and trusts, working with their partners. It sets out the expectations of all stakeholders to prevent, diagnose and treat stroke in people of all ages and to ensure they can return to independence as quickly as possible.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for the answer, Cabinet Secretary. The Stroke Association currently provides a stroke recovery service to stroke survivors across the Aneurin Bevan health board area with the exception of Newport, after the local authority cut funding for the service at the end of 2015. Caerphilly council cut funding for the service earlier this year, with the health board paying the authority's contribution for this financial year only. However, there is a lack of clarity over funding for the next year and beyond. If funding for the service is cut further, then there is a risk that the other areas within the health board will also miss out on this vital service or the service could cease altogether.

Will you commit to work with Aneurin Bevan health board and the local authorities in the region to ensure that adequate funding is available for the stroke recovery service in the area, so that all parts of health boards have equal access to this vital support in south-east Wales, please?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. It does highlight some of the challenges we face in trying to generate both integration and joint services between health and local government partners together with the third sector, but also some of the undeniable challenges we face with continued reductions in public funding.

The good news is, of course, that overall, we're seeing stroke survival rates increase. In Aneurin Bevan, for example, over the last 10 years, we've seen for those people who are 75 years and over a 15 per cent rise in survivorship. That's good news, but the challenge of how we work together across those areas is actually being developed together, between those partners.

I'm optimistic about Aneurin Bevan's ability to do more. They've actually reconfigured their stroke services across the health board area. That's a move supported by the Stroke Association, and that should be helping them provide earlier rehabilitation support as well. It's a matter that I continue to take an interest in and, indeed, discussions around the regional partnership board as well about how they will work together as partners.

I'll look again at the funding issues that he raises, but, as I say, these are about local authorities making their choices as well.FootnoteLink I'm not in a position to direct them about the use of their budgets, but I do think we can have broader agreement between partners on how to provide the right services for citizens regardless of whether that's health or local government.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Cabinet Secretary, throughout the summer recess I've been taking a close look at local healthcare services in my own constituency, and can I say that I appreciated you taking some time out to come up to Merthyr and join me in one of those discussion sessions? In this and other work that I do, I continue to be so impressed by the work of the professions allied to medicine and their key role in rehabilitation and preventative healthcare. So, would you agree that, as we talk about shaping the future off our health services, it's not just about innovation or even necessarily about more money, but it is about strengthening the best practice, such as the early discharge and rehabilitation after a stroke, which is supported by allied health professionals as an effective and cost-efficient way of improving those services?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, you're right to point out the role of allied health professionals and frequently in our debates about health in this place, we talk about doctors, and maybe nurses, and we ignore lots of the other healthcare professionals who are important in making the whole system work. And in this area, early rehabilitation, it is that earlier access to a range of different therapists that makes the biggest difference to getting people back into their own homes and the earliest possible recovery. And actually, Aneurin Bevan have a good record in this area of the improvement they've made.

The latest audit report suggests that they have twice the average of the audit of those people when they have completed their six-month follow-up. So, not just getting people out and mobilised early and back into their own homes, but the follow-up plan for after they've returned to their own homes too. And we have about 70 per cent compliance with the timescale to have their rehab goals agreed within five days, and that's much better than a range of other units across the UK. So, this is a health board that is looking forward, is looking at further improvements being made and is absolutely, as you made the point, thinking about those other allied health professionals and their crucial role in having effective recovery and rehabilitation.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the availability of beds within the Welsh NHS? OAQ52594

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question in your new role on the back benches, figuratively at least. I expect all health boards to plan and provide services that meet the needs of their people. This includes the provision of sufficient numbers of beds in different settings across our healthcare system to meet local and national expected demand. That, of course, must take into account the fluctuations in demand that occur throughout the year.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for your good wishes—I'll take it as a backhanded compliment, Cabinet Secretary. [Laughter.] Cabinet Secretary, we know full well that one of the big issues that arrive in the winter pressure months in particular is access to beds within the Welsh NHS. I'm sure, through the summer recess, you and your officials have been working with health boards the length and breadth of Wales over winter preparedness plans. What confidence can you give people working within the Welsh NHS, and the people of Wales, that you have addressed the crisis in bed availability that exists in some health boards across Wales, so that we will have some respite from some of the backlog that happens in accident and emergency departments because people cannot progress through the hospital through lack of beds within district general hospitals across Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank you for that question. I really do wish you well in your new role in the Chamber. I expect to see you on many occasions in these questions, no doubt.

When you actually look at our bed numbers, last year we had over 400 additional beds throughout the whole system created to deal with winter pressure. So, that's essentially the size of a reasonably sized district general hospital of extra capacity within our system.

We do find even more acute pressure in the winter, as we regularly rehearse, and I'm sure we'll have opportunities to do so in the coming months. That is not just about beds within the hospital part of this; it's actually about getting people into supported social care to get them out of the hospitals. The flow is our biggest problem.

So, in that sense that isn't just about capacity; that's about how we manage demand and manage flows throughout our whole system. That is work that is being done in planning for this winter, with the Government working together with health boards, trusts and partners to try to make sure that we have the best possible response to the extraordinary demands we know our system faces in the winter.

We do still, though, have a higher proportion of beds for the population within Wales compared to England. We still look again at both bed numbers and bed occupancy, and, crucially, at how those numbers are used to make the whole system work and, in particular, the join between health and the social care system.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Following a campaign and a subsequent post on social media, I received numerous distressing e-mails from women who have suffered as a result of inadequate provision of support and suitable hospital beds for women experiencing miscarriage. One woman told me a harrowing story of being admitted to a hospital with a suspected miscarriage, only to be placed on a ward next to the labour unit. During the evening, in extreme pain, she was forced to see one of a pair of miscarried twins on the floor of a toilet. She described this as 'the most horrific, heart-breaking episode of my life', as I'm sure we can all imagine.

Yesterday, the campaign group, Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales, published their report with recommendations for improving miscarriage care. These include ensuring that early pregnancy units provide support services in line with National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines, improved emotional support and establishing recurrent pregnancy-loss clinics. Will you commit, Cabinet Secretary, to working with the campaigners on this important issue and to implement the recommendations in that report?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise the distressing picture that you paint, which spells out people's real experience within our system. We regularly talk about when healthcare goes right—as we should do to celebrate that, as we have done this year—but we recognise that when healthcare goes wrong it can have a significant and continuing impact on people's general health and well-being.

I'll be more than happy to make sure that my officials, including, if it would be appropriate, the chief nurse's department, I think, have a look at the report to see what constructive progress we can make in having a conversation with the campaigners about the current state of affairs within the NHS, and, in particular, about how we make further improvements.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, we all understand that the availability of beds is critical, particularly with winter pressures, and Andrew R.T. Davies has highlighted that very much. In May, my local health board undertook a consultation on what it called service changes, but what, in fact, were bed closures. They recommended that 79 temporarily closed beds would be permanently closed and another 46 would be closed. As a result of my objections, and others objecting to some of that, we had a watered-down version, but I still worry very much that that watered-down version will result in that total of 125 beds being closed.

I ask the question: why aren't you looking at relocating those beds to other services, because there is demand elsewhere? The reason they're closing them is that they say they've improved services—they're getting people through the hospital faster, therefore the beds become less used as people move on. But, there are many other areas in hospitals where beds are being waited for. Will you now go to health boards and say to them, before they close any further beds, they must look at the service provision across their services to see if they can relocate those beds to other clinical needs to ensure that people don't have to wait for a hip operation or other purposes because there isn't a bed for them?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise the point you're making, and we've had several discussions outside the Chamber about issues in ABMU and I know you've been engaged directly with the health board. In terms of the health boards discharging their responsibilities on this issue, they of course need to have a plan about the appropriate number of beds in the appropriate part of the system and the staff to go with them. And, here, the health board said that they had improved services so they didn't need beds in one part of the system so they could appropriately treat and look after people throughout the wider health and care system. I actually think that the biggest limiting step in actually having bed numbers in different parts of our service is about actually having the appropriate staff to deliver the services in them. But I'm clear about the processes the health boards must go through about needing to have evidence of the impact and the benefit to be delivered by changing bed numbers and what that means in terms of the staff and the service provision and, crucially, of course, the quality of care that people are provided. We have lots of good examples in 'A Healthier Wales' of where we do need to see a shift in our system to move people out of hospital care more quickly. That means different capacity within social care as well. So, I will look again at the experience of ABMU, and I'm sure you'll take the opportunity to talk to me about it as well to make sure they do get this right in the future as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, following the July publication of the Welsh Government response to the parliamentary review, I note you indicated that the regional partnership boards are to be responsible for directing change and that you intend to issue guidance. Could you please tell us when will this guidance be forthcoming on the transformational change, and, considering that the progress of the regional boards has been highly inconsistent to date, how can you be confident that progress and transformation will be equitable across all the health boards?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I welcome Angela Burns back following the reshuffle. I look forward to many continuing jousts of varying natures and temperatures.

The guidance you refer to has already been issued. We've already issued guidance about the use of the criteria for the transformation fund. And, more than that, in terms of the second part of your question—the confidence that we'll see real progress—I've made the time, together with the Minister, to make sure that we have met every single one of the regional partnership boards, we've met the health and local government leadership together, to be clear about what we expected in the development of 'A Healthier Wales', and then afterwards to be clear that we expect it now to be delivered. And, in meeting those people, what's been very interesting is that they all have ideas about the joint use of resources, where health and local government are genuine partners rather than one party being the decision maker and somebody else being a mere consultee—but, more than that, the range of projects and bids that we have already. I am hopeful that, within the coming weeks, not months, I'll be able to announce the first areas that will receive additional support from the transformation fund. And I think it will make real some of the discussions we're having now. I'm also confident that those parts of Wales that are not in the first group to have their transformation projects approved will see that as a helpful kick start to make sure they are not left in the slow lane. There is real ambition, I am pleased to say, to make sure that every part of Wales takes part in genuinely transforming services.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

So, given what you've just said about the role that you see the regional boards performing, can you explain then how that ties in to the national transformation board? Will they be the ones who are responsible, ultimately, for the transformation of the national health service? And, as I'm sure you are aware, business process re-engineering is a highly defined skill and it takes a lot of experience to do it successfully, especially in an organisation as large as the NHS—and please accept that, when I refer to the NHS, I refer to NHS and social care, because the two are integral to each other. So, I'd like to understand what additional resources you might be putting in place to support both the national board and the regional partnership boards in terms of people with absolute transformational business process re-engineering skills. And when will you be measuring—or how will you put in place a series of key performance indicators so that we know how well they are doing and what timescales they are doing it to?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for that. I can confirm that the national board has already met, and its role is to have oversight for the progress in delivering 'A Healthier Wales', rather than, effectively, providing a second decision-making course for individual regional partnership boards agreeing on bids they want to make for transformation. That will still be my officials looking at those bids and then giving me advice about whether I should or should not agree to fund the bids that are made. The reason for that is that we've issued guidance already, with the clarity about the criteria for regional partnership boards to meet in actually providing those transformative projects. And the ones that we've highlighted are that they have to be genuinely transformative—so not simply rebadging a current, existing service—and also have the potential to deliver at scale, because I'm looking for a genuine transformation across the system and not for a series of micro projects that are about more local circumstances and ultra-local leadership. I'm looking for genuine scale and scalability in what we have.

I'm looking to measure our success by the process of accountability. We have a fund that is looking at whether we have genuinely transformed where we are, whether we're meeting the headlines and meeting the targets, the 40 different targets, we have in 'A Healthier Wales' over the initial three-year period. And I know that we will be judged on that. There will be scrutiny here, there will be regular opportunities to ask me questions. But part of the challenge is that, for each of those bids to transform the service, I have to be prepared that, even on the best advice and the best service design, with people available within the health and social care field working together, it's possible that they won't all succeed or they won't all succeed in meeting all of the goals and objectives that are set against each bid to come in. It's important that I accept that at the outset, because otherwise we won't see real innovation and we won't see a real transformative approach to re-engineering our services to meet the challenges of the future.

So, for each bid, you'll see what it encompasses, you'll see the basis on which I've made my decision and you'll see something about a timescale to understand whether it's been successful or not.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Actually, I'm really glad to hear you say that you're not going to expect every single bid to be successful, because the key to being able to achieve this recalibration of the NHS is that we've got to be prepared to accept failure, and there will be some failures along the way in all of these projects. But you are talking about the projects—you're talking about the transformation fund and the moneys coming out of it, but, of course, the parliamentary review was about so much more than that, because it actually talked about a cultural transformation within the NHS, about this shift towards a much more staff-focused empowering, enabling person-centred care to really work in its ultimate sense. So, whilst all those projects are going on and you're using the transformation money to fund the 40 or so specific projects, how else is this message being transported throughout the NHS? How else are you getting the buy-in from the rank-and-file staff who've got to be able to cleave to that national vision of: this is where we want our NHS to be in 10 years' time; this is how we want it to focus? The old specialist centres, the silo mentality—it's all got to go. We've got to look at it in a different way, and that affects everyone from the porter all the way through to the most specialised consultant that we currently employ and, of course, through all the management strata.

So, whilst the transformation fund is welcome—and the projects—it can't work in isolation, because you're only going to be fixing little bits of the problem as we go along. You've got to be able to take that entire structure all the way through and that's what I don't see and I don't quite get a feel of: where the people are coming from to enable that, because that's not always a cost element. It's all about cultural change and about re-working how people are doing specific jobs today, and it's not something that necessarily has to go into a project to go and get some money from the Welsh Government to make happen.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I shall remind you of your recognition that we have to accept some projects won't succeed, if that happens. But, look, the cultural change point you make is one that I accept completely. But the transformation fund particularly will help to kick-start new models of care. That will be part of generating cultural change, but it won't do it in itself. If I said the transformation fund was the thing that would generate the cultural change we want to see then I'd be setting that fund up to fail from the outset, because actually it's about much more. If you go back to not just the review but to 'A Healthier Wales' itself, and then accepting the four main pillars of it, a large part of that is about the engagement of the staff in helping to re-engineer and redesign the service. That isn't just a discrete group of managers, leaders and planners. It is about a wider group of staff buying into how they are the most effective agents for change for the service. It's a message that I've regularly given in going out and meeting with staff and listening to them, saying that, actually, they're in a really privileged position, because they're trusted by the public in a way that no politician in this place will be, and they have the opportunity to change the system from their own experience and their own view on where there is waste and inefficiency and opportunity for improvement. Getting right the cultural change is something that they'll understand when we have it, but it's rather more difficult to measure. If we can't, though, generate that cultural change, we won't deliver the sort of shift that I think everyone, regardless of their party in this place, wants to see across our health and social care system.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you. Your Government has run the Betsi Cadwaladr health board for over three years now and we haven’t seen sufficient improvements as of yet, I’m afraid. So, what are the main reasons why you have failed in that regard?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Since the introduction of special measures, we have announced a range of improvement frameworks, a range of actions and support that we have taken. Of course, I'll be dealing with more of this in question 3, but you will have noticed over the summer, for example, the additional £6.8 million of investment we've made within the health board.

The reasons why the health board performance has not improved to a level that we would say is acceptable on all counts are varied. There are challenges about central leadership within the health board and there are challenges about shifting some local culture within the health board as well. We have seen some improvements, for example, in maternity services, which have been removed from special measures. We've seen improvement in some out-of-hours services. But I think I've covered the reasons for and my frustration with the inability to make as rapid a progress on a number of occasions—I'm sure I'll have an opportunity to do so again—including in the last statement I made in this place before summer recess.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Of course, you do report back to the Assembly often that you feel that improvements are being made in several areas, but it’s clear to me that there is a block in the system. I don’t know if it’s a funding block, or a block in terms of management, or if there is a more major problem that needs to be addressed. We are talking about the need to deliver services more and more in the community through GP surgeries and pharmacies and so on, but I fear that we are moving in the other direction in terms of the use of resources, with hospitals, which are under huge pressures, of course, taking more and more of a share of the cake.

I know that changing structures is not child’s play, but I do think that the time has now come to scrap the Betsi Cadwaladr health board. I would propose that what is needed is to split it, not geographically, but in terms of strata—as hospitals and primary care. The budgets for primary care would be safeguarded and the primary care board could create a new model of real integration with social care, whilst the hospitals could focus on their own challenges. Does the Government, like me, have the desire to seek new solutions?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I of course want Betsi Cadwaladr to succeed. I want it to deliver the sort of quality of healthcare that each of us, in every single community, would expect. Your proposal to break up the health board is not one that is supported by the overwhelming majority of staff within the health board—we've been through this in responses from them. And I don't believe that the structural re-engineering that you suggest would deliver a better service. Splitting hospitals and primary care is something that we've tried before in Wales, and it didn't deliver the sort of improvement that we wanted. Splitting hospital trusts away from primary care has not delivered the sort of improvement that everyone would want in England across the whole system either. So, I would caution the Member before he suggests that that sort of re-engineering in north Wales will provide the eventual outcomes that, I think, all of us do wish to see.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

The result of your caution, you see, is that Betsi Cadwaladr has been in special measures now for over three years. I'm clear in my mind that patients in the north of Wales deserve better. And here we have a model that I believe could work for the whole of Wales after being rolled out in the health board with the biggest population and serving the biggest area. People living in the north of Wales can see the problem. And staff, who tell me that they like this idea of doing something different to try to get to grips with the problem in the way that this Government have failed to do so far, are frustrated and they're under pressure. By putting a model in place that protects primary care budgets and keeps people out of secondary care, which allows secondary care to concentrate on its many challenges and provides a new focus on integration—. Well, I think by doing that we might just start heading in the right direction. Isn't it time to say that, with special measures not working, it's time for radical measures instead?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I tried to be polite to the Member in my second answer, to give him an opportunity to reconsider the track he was going down. I have to say that the orders are not just to re-engineer health in north Wales, but your plan—I assume on behalf of your party—to take a wrecking ball to the way we organise and run the national health service in Wales in every single part of the country is not something that I would support at all. The last thing that our health service needs is a major structural reorganisation such as the one that you have just proposed. It would be an additional distraction to delivering healthcare in the most challenging of circumstances, with additional financial pressure, the challenges of Brexit on the horizon, the additional public health challenges that we all know that we face, and an ageing population, and it would an additional barrier to integration within the health service, let alone to delivering the plan 'A Healthier Wales', which has been designed and agreed by health and local government, for the first time together working to deliver a joint health and social care plan with buy-in from the third sector and housing. I think the proposal that you make is foolish. It runs in exactly the opposite direction of every respected commentator and expert across health and social care. Even in England, Simon Stevens recognises they have got it wrong on dividing trusts from primary care. He is now looking at integrated models of care in England. He won't say, 'Look at Scotland or Wales' when he looks at them; he looks further afield. He can hardly say to the Tories in England that he likes the look of integrated healthcare models. Nobody who is serious about the organisation and running of a modern health service is agreeing with the plan that you propose, and I strongly suggest you go back and reconsider your position.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I wanted to ask you some questions today about social prescribing. As you know, social prescribing—sometimes referred to as community referral—is a means of enabling GPs, nurses and other primary care professionals to refer people to a range of local and non-clinical services. So, it does promote a more holistic approach to health matters and, as such, I think it is a welcome development.

Now, it's widely acknowledged that Wales does have a major problem with obesity, with 59 per cent of adults in Wales classified as being obese and, more worryingly still, the figures for children also show that almost a quarter of children are obese. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to encourage the use of social prescribing to tackle the obesity problem?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

This Government has already taken an approach to promoting social prescribing and to developing the evidence base for its impact on physical and mental health. I've made a series of announcements about a range of projects that we are supporting with additional resource. You may have missed them; I'll happily direct you to them again. In addition to that, you may also want to take a look at some excellent examples of large-scale social prescribing, some of which are taking place in north Wales with a broader health board approach, and, of course, the excellent Valleys Steps initiative that has its headquarters in Cynon Valley. So, we recognise the case for more social prescribing. We'll look at more evidence about what we could do with it. It's not just in the field of having a healthier weight but of a range of potential benefits we wish to understand and then properly exploit.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, I think you're right that there is a range of approaches that are needed to tackle the problem, and I'm glad to hear that you are taking social prescribing seriously. Now, I do think that it's a good idea, as I said, to use this method. However, part of the problem with social prescribing providers is that many activities are led by volunteers and the charitable sector, so they may be vulnerable over the longer term to funding changes. Has the Government given any consideration to ring-fencing funding for some of these vital projects in the future?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

As I said in my first answer, I have announced additional funding to support particular social prescribing projects organised by a range of people in the voluntary sector in particular. Part of the challenge about social prescribing is often—these are low-cost or no-cost activities in any event—about encouraging people to make use of them. You may also wish to look at the national exercise referral scheme, which is a scheme that has run for a number of years. A number of Members will be familiar with it in this Chamber, and it has excellent results in terms of helping to improve people's physical and mental health. But, of course, we'll always review the amount of funding available to try and deliver on the objectives that we wish to deliver for the people of Wales. We will continue to do so, of course, in the face of continuing austerity.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, thanks for that answer. I will endeavour to familiarise myself in more detail with the reports that you mentioned. Now, there is one report that I will refer to. There was a recent primary care hub report on social prescribing that indicated that there is a lack of awareness amongst the public about social prescribing. Obviously, for social prescribing to work, we need the public to be well aware of it and also, of course, GPs. What is the Welsh Government currently doing to increase the knowledge of social prescribing among the general public and also among GPs?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm familiar with the primary care hub that sits within Public Health Wales and their report on social prescribing. There's a challenge, I think, for all of us in the way we talk about healthcare issues in this Chamber and with the wider public. I don't expect the public to become more familiar with the term 'social prescribing' in general terms or understand what it is, because there are a variety of things that we would call social prescribing. It's actually about how we renormalise a conversation about different ways to help people to achieve their health and well-being goals across physical and mental health. You don't need to know, I think, if it's suggested, for example, that you join your local ramblers group that that's a course of social prescribing. It's more about how you're helped to achieve different goals to improve your health and well-being, and I think we've regularly used language that excludes the public from a well-informed conversation. Because, actually, if you say, 'If you did this particular activity or if you joined a particular group, that might have a benefit', that's the sort of conversation we need to re-engineer and that is, in many ways, about access to information about what is already available as well as developing an evidence base for the impact on physical and mental well-being.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

3. Pa asesiad y mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi'i wneud o'r cynnydd a wnaed dros y chwe mis diwethaf i ddatrys problemau ym Mwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr? OAQ52607

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

In my regular statements on Betsi Cadwaladr university health board, I have set out the detail of where improvements have been made, such as in maternity services, but I have also been very clear where the health board must take urgent action over the next 18 months. In May this year I published a new improvement framework for Betsi and I announced a range of intensive support, including the additional £6.8 million of investment I mentioned earlier in conversation with Rhun ap Iorwerth, which I've targeted at key areas of performance where I expect to see urgent improvements. Detailed progress reports will be provided against the improvement framework. These will be published in October this year.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. I hope you're familiar with the shocking and distressing case of Reece Yates, the baby who died at Wrexham Maelor Hospital and whose inquest took place yesterday. As you know, this is a hospital run by Betsi Cadwaladr board. The inquest heard that Reece would have had every chance of surviving his complications having been treated elsewhere, and that only a breakdown of communication prevented his transfer to a unit on the Wirral. For the board to admit, albeit through their solicitor, that, and I'm quoting here:

'Reece's chances of survival would have been better if he had been born at an alternative unit.'

It's a shocking admission that failings at the hospital were a factor in this baby's death, although I do believe that the board should be given credit for being honest. So, my question to you, Cabinet Secretary, is: will you hold an inquiry into this case and, if need be, will people finally be sacked for the now fatal failings of the health board that you're in charge of?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I have tremendous sympathy for the family for their loss. I don't want to try and use the position that they find themselves in to either take credit or to score points. I think the important point is that in every incident of this kind there is of course an internal review about what happened and what went wrong. We discussed earlier on another question about the real and lasting impact of where healthcare goes wrong, including the possibility that people will lose their lives. Of course, I expect any and every part of the health service, not just in north Wales, to properly learn from when healthcare does go wrong and to provide the reassurance that I think people will look for. I'm not looking to use a headline opportunity to arbitrarily dismiss people within the health service, but I do expect there to be proper accountability and learning, which is what I think the wider public expect.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. I’m very pleased, of course, that the intensive care department, the SuRNICC, has now opened at Glan Clwyd, and it would be good to be able to congratulate the Government on their vision in that regard. But, of course, the truth is that the Government and the health board, back in 2013, had approved the downgrading of intensive care services for newborn babies in north Wales. At that time, the plan was to move the service to Arrowe Park in the north-west of England. Now, it was only a powerful campaign from residents in north Wales that forced the Government to change direction. Therefore, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate those campaigners on their determination and perseverance. Their campaign changed the minds of the health board and it changed the Government’s mind too, ensuring that a SuRNICC was developed as a centre for intensive care services in north Wales for the babies of the future. So, will you join with me in congratulating those campaigners on their success and to thank them for their untiring efforts?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There was a range of people, of course, who were involved in conversations and campaigns at the time, and the Government did look again and have a review, and the First Minister made a choice on the back of an expert review, which has now led to the SuRNICC being opened. There are people in this Chamber who took part in that campaign, and I see the local Member looking at me, and of course she was one of those who was remarkably forthright not just in public, but in private as well, as I recall, at the time.

The success story is that we chose on the back of that to invest significant additional resource and, actually, when I visited the unit before its formal opening I saw people who had received care and they were remarkably positive about the quality of care they'd received. It was instructive to me that some staff had said that they didn't quite believe it would actually happen, even when the building was taken place, and there's something there about the lack of trust and that we need to continue to rebuild with our staff and the public that decisions that we make will be followed through. But those staff who are working on the ward now recognise they have top-class facilities, they are proud of the care they deliver, and, more importantly, I think people in north Wales can have real confidence and pride in the quality of the service following the investment this Government has made.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the roll-out of Medicines Transcribing and E-discharge across all hospitals in Wales? OAQ52577

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. Five health boards have the medicines transcribing and e-discharge system live within their hospitals. I'll refer to it from now on as the MTeD system; it'll make things easier and quicker. The two remaining health boards have their own local systems with similar functionality to MTeD in providing discharge information to general practitioners.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and I support what you've been saying about electronic discharge and I welcome the progress that's been made in trying to achieve that. I hear what you say about MTeD, but I've also heard recently that a new, more integrated service is also being developed that will or could ultimately replace MTeD. Is this the case? It does seem a little odd, if a new system is being evolved before MTeD has been even rolled out across Wales, that we are going down this line at this point.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think it would be foolish to try and pause MTeD and try to do something different. If you look at what we've done, it's part of the Welsh clinical portal. Practitioners generally are very supportive of it and positive about it—not just practitioners within hospitals and GPs but also within the pharmacy world too—and there's recognition that we are in a better position than England, where they're trying to roll out something with similar functionality, and, in Scotland, whilst they have some tools for electronic discharge, they still have a largely paper-based system. So, I think we need to get on to roll out something that is consistent and then understand how we could develop and improve that in the future, and I have greater ambition still for improving the discharge process from hospital, making greater use of electronic prescribing and sharing of information across our health system and, in particular, to see what more community pharmacy can do to help improve transferring information and people out of hospital to make sure that their medicines are ready for them upon discharge in their own setting.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to address recruitment challenges in the Welsh NHS? OAQ52575

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We continue to work with health boards and, from October of course, Health Education and Improvement Wales on recruitment challenges with short, medium and long-term action. This includes our successful 'Train. Work. Live.' campaign, increasing medical school places and working to ensure that more Welsh students go on to study to become healthcare professionals.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer, health Secretary, but one thing you didn't mention was the quality of accommodation for NHS staff, which is very often provided by health boards. The feedback I've received from north Wales staff in recent months has been that the quality of accommodation is absolutely appalling and does discourage people from coming to try working in that part of the country. So, I was wondering what action you are going to take, Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that there are decent standards of accommodation provided for NHS staff where health boards are responsible for accommodation. We have the Welsh housing quality standard, which applies to registered social landlords in Wales, but it doesn't seem to apply as far as health boards are concerned in terms of the quality of their accommodation. What work will you do to make sure that we raise our game in this regard?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, in north Wales, I'm aware of ongoing conversations about having to improve the quality of their accommodation and whether or not the health service itself needs to provide it. Or there could be a partnership, for example, with registered social landlords, housing associations to help provide investment into a facility and better and more proactive management of it. So, it is an issue that I am very well aware of and I'm looking for further action. And, of course, we recognise that, unlike some parts of the UK, we continue to provide free accommodation for doctors in the foundation 1 phase as well. So, I recognise the challenges. Improving the offer should mean that we're an even more attractive place for people to come and commit their career.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the fact that the numbers of nurses, midwives and health visitors are at a record high here in Wales, and I understand that the extension of the ‘Train. Work. Live.’ campaign to registered nurses has generated a significant amount of interest from qualified nurses considering a career in Wales, and that this has led to some nurses taking up a post alongside those who have been recruited directly by NHS organisations. What's the Welsh Government doing to track the success stories of ‘Train. Work. Live.’ to learn more about what led them to choose a career in Wales, to build on this success?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm happy that you've highlighted the nurse recruitment part of ‘Train. Work. Live.’ and that it isn't just a campaign for GP or specialist doctor recruitment. Actually, the feedback we've already had from people who have come in to Wales as a result of ‘Train. Work. Live.’—a number of whom I met at the Royal College of Nursing congress in Belfast—is that the campaign is visible and high-profile in the nursing world, and we'll be definitely using real stories of nurses who have made choices to come to Wales on the back of that campaign. You can see some of the ongoing success in our approach, because there are UK-wide challenges on a range recruitment issues, but the nurse vacancy rate in NHS Wales is approximately 5 per cent. In England, it's 11.8 per cent. So, we're in a better position, but the challenge is to make sure that we don't lose sight of where we are, and that we continue to improve. I actually think that when you talk to nurses themselves, they'll tell you what other nurses themselves think of their journey, to make sure that's a story they can believe in. So, we will definitely take up the point that you raise in the continuation of our campaign.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, I also welcome the ‘Train. Work. Live.’ scheme, but also the bursary, and I welcome very much the fact that the bursary is still being kept here in Wales while the Tories in England have abolished it. That is critical to seeing more Welsh citizens coming into the profession. And it's not just nursing, of course; it's other allied health professions as well. Can you reassure me that that bursary will continue, and can you expand upon it? Because as you have highlighted, we need more nurses and more other health professionals in our hospitals, in our services, to ensure that we can deliver those services, so we don't close beds.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise the point you make about the bursary, so I've made annual choices to roll forward the bursary. The consultation has now ended. We've had, I think, over 40 different organisations and a number individuals who have responded. So, I'll get a summary of the consultation and I'll then have some decisions to make over the autumn about a longer term arrangement so we don't need to make an annual choice, but I'm determined that we continue to invest in supporting nurses to come and study and to give them the opportunity and expectation to work in NHS Wales afterwards.

We've seen the impact of removing the bursary in England, not just the numbers that are coming off the register, but in particular in specialist areas as well. Learning disability nurses are a good example. It's an area that is often not talked about, but the reality is that learning disability nurses tend to be mature students, more so than other parts of the nursing family, and in England, with the removal of the bursary, there's been a catastrophic fall in the number of people undertaking learning disability nursing qualifications. I know that some providers have closed their courses. Now, that's a problem for England in the here and now, but it's actually a risk for us as well because as we maintain our numbers, there's every chance that learning disability nurses in Wales will be pursued by other parts of our healthcare system. So, you can see the risks, you can see the damage that's being done, and I would urge the Government for England to think again about the course it's taking to support nurses and other healthcare professionals to reintroduce a bursary, and I hope that you and other Members in the Chamber will support the decision I eventually reach on how to continue to support nurses and other therapists and healthcare professionals to study here in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the promotion of physical health among young people? OAQ52589

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We deliver a number of approaches to support physical health. We have targeted programmes such as the daily mile, legislation through delivery of an obesity strategy and minimum unit pricing, service provision such as smoking cessation and weight management, guidelines through nutritional standards in schools and planning through health impact assessments.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you for that response, this was a case of having to word a question very carefully, because if I had asked the question that I wanted to ask on physical activity rather than physical health, the question would have gone to another Minister, but it was directed at you because of course promoting physical activity and exercise is crucial in promoting physical health. As we await the hopefully innovative report from the health committee here at the Assembly, does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me on a matter of principle, namely that we need to look at how we use health budgets to invest in physical activity? Because if we are talking about preventing ill health and making the NHS a health service rather than an illness service, we must ensure that all funding sources are available to create plans and programmes in the long term to promote health and to provide the infrastructure for health that we require in order to make us a healthier nation. Because making the nation healthier will ultimately save money as well.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise the broad points you make and I don't think we'll find ourselves with any disagreement on the principles. I look forward to the committee's report, and you'll hear more from the Government over the course of this autumn. You know that we're committed, not just by legislation, but we've made public commitments about our new healthy weight strategy, available for consultation this autumn as well. The health budget of course has a role to play in the way we deploy resources in promoting physical activity and we are, after all, the largest employer in the country with over 90,000 directly employed staff within the service. So, we should be an exemplar ourselves about the opportunities that we provide and the messages we provide for our staff in their roles as employees, as well as their interaction with the population.

This is partly going back, if you like, to the important point about the broader cultural changes we need to see take place, and to renormalise areas of physical activity. And that does mean that we have to work across the Government with different portfolios, but actually to work with people in communities as well, and actually understand how we make physical activity easier for them to undertake, rather than saying, 'You should do this; it's a good thing for you to do'. We actually need to make it easier for them to do that as well. So, you'll hear more from the Government over the course of the autumn about what we propose to do, and I look forward to scrutiny and suggestions, indeed, about how we might choose to do that and, hopefully, achieve that in the most positive manner.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Outdoor education can play an important role in encouraging our young people to get active and also give them the skills and confidence to do so. I know that you spoke just now about some of the cross-Government work that you are doing, but particularly with your colleague Kirsty, what are you doing there in order to try and promote the benefits of outdoor education?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I know that your previous profession was in the secondary education tier, but actually, when you look at what we, in particular, are trying to do, patterns for life are often set in early years and in primary school, and there's lots of outdoor education in almost all the primary schools that I have seen and visited. It's a consistent part of what they look to achieve. And not only that, but with the daily mile, we have 303 schools at the start of this school year signed up to do the daily mile, and there's something about shifting habits so that it's normal to do those things as opposed to making a special effort to do it. We're seeing more of that coming through, not just with curriculum reform, but the measures that I think we'll see coming through from the Government in what I think we'll be able to agree and then get on with from the autumn onwards. So, I'm optimistic about what we'll do, but the challenge is whether we can persuade the public to make different and continuing choices.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 7 [OAQ52570] is withdrawn. Question 8—David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the availability of services to support children with arthritis in South Wales Central? OAQ52597

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

We are refreshing the service development and commissioning directive for arthritis and chronic musculoskeletal conditions. This sets out Welsh Government's vision for planning and delivering high-quality services and support for people living with these conditions and this includes children and young people with musculoskeletal conditions including arthritis.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, you'll know that Arthritis Care merged with Arthritis Research UK last year and I understand that in Wales, the charity will now be known as Cymru Versus Arthritis. I'm sure we all commend that objective. Regarding provision in south Wales, I am aware that the paediatric rheumatology provision was included in the annual financial plan for the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee and that committee will be developing a potential service specification model for an enhanced paediatric rheumatology service. Can you give us an update on where that work is? It's really essential, because succession action will be needed as soon as possible due to the impending retirement of the rheumatologist who currently undertakes paediatric service, part time—though he's not a specialist specifically in paediatrics, but has extended his work to cover that area with great distinction.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Indeed. I agree entirely. Can I commend the work of the new merged organisation—I'm sure it will do very good work in campaigning and policy development as well—but also, Dr Jeremy Camilleri, who will be moving on at some time in the near future? He's made his intentions clear, but it would be worth saying that, because of the advance notice that we have had, the health board is going to work closely now with the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee and other partners to ensure that we do have the delivery of a sustainable service.

David, you asked me about where we are with progress on the updating of the service development and commissioning directive, first published way back in 2007. Now, this review will consider a range of arthritis and musculoskeletal pain, including juvenile arthritic conditions, and we'll make sure that this refresh takes into account the recommendations that have been made by the British Society for Rheumatology and the National Rheumatoid Arthritis Society report, which was published only at the end of 2016.

So, our aim is—. And I say this as somebody who actually has lived for many years with a condition of ankylosing spondylitis, since I was a young man, so I'm a living, walking, breathing example of somebody who's had the right diagnosis, the right treatment, the right physiotherapy and allied professionals. I challenge anybody to walk up the highest mountain peaks with me now, whereas at one time I could hardly walk down the corridor. But that is the aim: to focus on helping people of all ages, including children and young people, to develop the skills to enable them to manage their conditions, and, where appropriate, increase their ability to stay and work and live the lives they want to live.

So, we've set the steering group up, chaired by Alun Morgan, the deputy director of therapies for Cardiff and Vale university health board. He's overseeing the work. He's brought together clinical experts in various fields, including arthritis and musculoskeletal conditions, as well as third sector bodies and, importantly, like me, patient representatives. So, the outline document has been drafted. Group members are in the process now of populating it with information from their specific areas of expertise. So, we're currently scoping demand for the service. We're carrying out a workshop in October to establish preferred models going forward, and we hope to bring it forward, then, in the autumn, to consider that and present our items for prioritisation. So, the work is well in hand, and I thank him for raising this important matter.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 9—John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

9. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to encourage people to register as bone-marrow donors to support those who are in need of a bone-marrow transplant? OAQ52587

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The Welsh bone marrow donor registry is operated by the Welsh Blood Service. The Welsh Blood Service actively encourages donors from all ethnic backgrounds to join the panel and asks blood donors aged 17 to 30 if they would like to register, as this age group offers transplant patients the best chance of survival.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thanks for that, Cabinet Secretary. Marley Nicholls is a six-year-old boy in Newport East. He has a rare blood condition, aplastic anaemia, where his bone marrow and stem cells do not produce enough blood cells. He needs a bone marrow transplant, but nobody in his family is a match, and, indeed, nobody on the worldwide register is a suitable match either. So, they've launched a campaign to encourage as many people as possible to register as bone marrow donors and to have their bone marrow tested. Obviously, that hopefully will eventually benefit Marley, and, indeed, others waiting for a bone marrow transplant, but there are no guarantees at this stage. Cabinet Secretary, will you add your voice to their campaign to encourage as many people as possible to find out whether they might be a suitable match, and indeed to register as bone marrow donors? Are there any further steps Welsh Government might take in addition to what's already in place to encourage people to register?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm aware of that particular instance, and I know that you've played a part in supporting the family in their awareness-raising campaign, and I wish them every success in finding a donor for their child. I've visited the Welsh Blood Service and I've seen how the registry works, and it is an amazing feat, actually, to have a worldwide register to potentially find donors in different parts of the world. Now, the challenge is that because of the age range where we want donors to come forward, from 17 to 30, traditional channels aren't always successful. So, they are looking again at social media in particular, and interaction there to encourage people to come forward. The fortunate point is that many people in the younger part of their life are quite altruistic and want to do things. So, there are opportunities to look at that and take it forward. It's not just an issue for us in Wales; it's across the UK and more broadly as well, because we do operate as part of the global registry. I'm happy to look at ways in which the Government can support the Welsh Blood Service to undertake that and to make sure that more and more of us are able to help others.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is the topical question—Neil McEvoy.

Neil McEvoy (Independent, South Wales Central)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary support the scientists seeking answers from Magnox Ltd as to the number and extent of cooling pond accidents at Hinkley Point A that could have resulted in significant amounts of uranium and plutonium in the mud being dumped by EDF in Cardiff Bay? 211

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I'm unable to comment on matters relating to the marine licence for the dredging and deposit of material from Hinkley Point C due to an ongoing legal challenge seeking an injunction to suspend the marine licence.

Neil McEvoy (Independent, South Wales Central)

In the 1960s, Hinkley Point A was a nuclear bomb factory. In the financial year of 1968-9, half the nuclear core was removed to provide weapons-grade plutonium. The system was designed to remove only one fifth of the core in any given year. The rush was the result of the international non-proliferation treaty coming into force in 1970. It has been admitted by Magnox Ltd that there were cooling pond accidents. We must find out the extent of these accidents. Given that there could be uranium and plutonium hot particles that would not have been detected by the gamma spectrometry testing carried out, will the Cabinet Secretary request that Natural Resources Wales suspends the dumping licence and carries out alpha spectrometry and mass spectrometry to be able to say for sure exactly what is in the mud—please?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I answered the Member and made it very clear that I'm unable to make a comment at the current time because of the ongoing legal process. What I can reiterate is what I've previously said in this Chamber during a debate last term, and that was that the recent National Assembly Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee report showed that Natural Resources Wales made their determination based on expert advice. It also confirmed that all tests and assessments concluded that the material is within safe limits, poses no radiological risks to human health or the environment, and is safe and suitable to be disposed of at sea.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Andrew R.T.—

Neil McEvoy (Independent, South Wales Central)

Shame on you. Shame.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, I appreciate the constraints that are placed on you with the impending court case, but if I could maybe put two points to you and seek an answer to both points: one thing that's come up time and time again with constituents is why this particular location was chosen to dump this mud, given that, as I understand it, there were various other locations where this mud could have been disposed of. So, it's not an unreasonable assertion to try and find out why this particular area was chosen, given its close proximity to Cardiff. Secondly, given that the original licence was issued in 2014, there have been various changes in the plans around the Hinkley development. Are you confident that the licence that was awarded in 2014 does capture all of those changes and is up to date, and doesn't need a review to make sure that it does capture any of the changes that have happened in the intervening period?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Natural Resources Wales made their determination based on expert advice, and that was in line with all radiological assessments—procedures that have been developed by the International Atomic Energy Agency. I am very happy to continue to have discussions with NRW when I regularly meet them, and keep Members informed.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much. Isn't the protesting that is ongoing—[Interruption.] I will give you a moment.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I will continue in English. Isn't it the case that the protests that we are seeing taking place now, and the very real concerns that are being raised, are proving what I said in this Chamber back in May—that what I said then was quite correct? That was the debate, you will remember, on the report of the Petitions Committee, of which I am a Member, about what is happening to this mud. I had proposed in that committee a few months previous to that that more testing should take place, and what I said in the Plenary debate in May, as we discussed that report, and I'll quote—the quote here is in Welsh so I'll translate—was: if CEFAS themselves offered that there was a more transparent way to make the assessments, to do the testing, as they did in the Petitions Committee, then the opportunity should have been taken advantage of at that time, I think, to look for a way to move forward that happens in the most transparent way possible.

Now, there are also issues that were raised on that day about how waste of any kind, regardless of test results, can be dumped on Welsh land or in Welsh water without any recompense. But this fundamentally is an issue of transparency regarding this mud, and can Welsh Government not see now that your actions in not pushing for that retesting has caused that lack of trust in your actions?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Obviously, this is a live licence, and as such, it is a matter for NRW. You talk about transparency. They have issued a public statement. They've also put a significant range of decision-making documentation on their website so that people can access it. So, I think, from a transparency point of view, NRW have addressed that issue.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware that I raised two questions yesterday on the business statement, and I do appreciate the constraints you face in terms of responding to these as a result of the legal position that you're in at the moment. But I did ask a question on the business statement regarding the lack of an environmental impact assessment on the Hinkley Point mud concerns, and I think that's something that clearly would be helpful if at all possible, to have some kind of clarification on prospects for an environmental impact assessment, but also constituents have raised specific concerns, which I did also raise in the Petitions Committee debate, about inadequate sampling of deeper layers of mud. So, clearly, there is a great deal of public concern, and I am aware that Richard Bramhall of the Low Level Radiation Campaign, a former member of the UK Government's committee examining radiation risks for internal emitters, voiced worries about the test. So, again, this is an opportunity today to put those questions again on the record, and I also would be grateful for any further clarification, within the constraints that you face, that you can give us.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think a key point to note is the non-EIA approach doesn't mean a full and thorough environmental assessment was not undertaken. A radiological assessment was carried out, it was supported by experts, as well as the wider environmental and human health assessments that are needed for the marine licence determination. An EIA was carried out on the Hinkley Point C project overall. The EIA was submitted as part of the supporting information supplied with the application for the marine licence and as such was considered in the determination—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Carry on, Minister. Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. I don't want to add a lot to what the other Members have said—ones who have raised points. We did have a debate on this in May, as Rhun mentioned, and it has to be acknowledged that there is a wide public anxiety about this issue. We spoke about the environmental impact assessment, or the lack of it, in the debate we had in May. I don't really think those issues have been addressed, or at least, at the very least, there is a public perception, certainly, that these issues haven't been addressed. I think that we do need to curb public anxieties, address the issues, and I think we do have to have some greater level of testing before we go ahead with this. So, hopefully you can respond positively to that, Minister.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I think I did. Certainly, when we had the debate last term, I made it very clear that the Welsh Government is very keen to reassure the public and Members, and I think I addressed that in the debate.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you very much. I understand the constraints that the Cabinet Secretary is under, but I wanted to use the opportunity to express the concern there is in my constituency of Cardiff North. A lot of constituents have contacted me and it has been raised in a number of meetings that I've been at. There is concern about the safety in Cardiff, so I feel we should do all we can to explore, to whatever end we can, to, if necessary, reassure people. If it is safe, then we need to be able to do that.

I did speak, raising these issues, in the Petitions Committee on 23 May. And I know that, now, more information is being sought about Hinkley A, which we know has been decommissioned, but that in 2001, Magnox Electric, which then owned the original Hinkley site, was fined £100,000 for breaching nuclear waste disposal and plant maintenance legislation. So, obviously, that is a concern for members of the public to know that that has happened.

I also echo the question about why this particular place was chosen for the dumping to take place when it's only 2 km, I believe, from the shore. And what are the benefits to us in south Wales by having this mud dumped here? What sort of discussions or debates did take place about that decision? So, I'm anxious that any further scientific evidence that could be obtained is obtained, and I know that Professor Barnham has raised particular issues, so I would urge the Cabinet Secretary to do all that she can to address the concerns of the public about the possible dangers.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I mentioned before that, obviously, this is a live licence, so it is a matter for NRW, and concerns can continue to be addressed to them. I do think they have taken the step of making a public statement, making sure a significant range of decision-making documentation has been placed on the website in order to reassure the public. And as I say, I took my position to do that also in the debate that we had last term.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is the 90-second statements, and the first is from Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. Last weekend I was delighted to welcome Chief Chinamhora from Zimbabwe to Monmouthshire, who is responsible for over 280,000 people in his area. The chief, the mayor of Abergavenny and I led the 'march for Africa' at the Abergavenny Food Festival, invited by Martha and David Holman from the Gilwern-based charity Love Zimbabwe.

I've known Martha and David for the past seven years and I've watched the charity grow into a thriving connection between Zimbabwe and Wales. Links have been made with schools, societies, businesses and Government officials. They've established a vibrant educational programme with Lampeter university, taking students to their community centre in Zimbabwe. They now hope to extend this programme to Cardiff University and the University of South Wales.

I am honoured to invite the Chief to the Senedd today. He's in the gallery this afternoon, along with Martha and Dave, to meet my fellow AMs. I understand that he is the only Chief in recent history to come to the UK from Zimbabwe. Love Zimbabwe has recently won grant funding from the Wales for Africa programme to undertake a conservation project on four hectares of new land. On their next visit in April they plan to take books over for the new library building, accompanied by my colleague John Griffiths, among others.

We are delighted to invite Chief Chinamhora to Wales and hope that this is the beginning of an enduring and lasting friendship between our two countries.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Last week, a special service was held at Glan Clwyd school to celebrate the success of a year 8 pupil in an international competition held by Airbus for young people. The challenge was to design a rocket, and out of 900 competitors across the globe, Max Bentley from Prestatyn came first. It was a privilege to join with Max and the rest of year 8 to recognise this international award from Airbus to design a rocket and to help to improve their space programme. It is great praise to him, his family and also the school. Max said:

'It’s been an incredible experience. I’m exceptionally pleased that I won this competition. I hope that I can follow up on this and study STEM subjects, and I look forward to the future. Thank you very much to Airbus for the opportunity.'

So, once again, congratulations Max and Ysgol Glan Clwyd—great stars of the future.

5. Debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee Report: Post Legislative Scrutiny of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report on post-legislative scrutiny of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Nearly five years ago, in November 2013, the Active Travel (Wales) Act became law. The Act was intended to create a generational change, and transform the way we travel on essential journeys, to work and to school, making walking and cycling the norm.

The reasons for doing this I think are clear: active travel promotes better health, reduces pollution and congestion. In fact, the committee has had first-hand experience to add to the wealth of evidence on the subject. We put bike, car and train head to head to launch our report. Setting out from the Welsh Government offices in Cathays park, committee members raced back to the Senedd early one morning in May. And I would like to invite you just to watch the screens, to watch the results of that race.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Well. I even bought a new pair of trainers for the race, and I still lost—but there we are.

Light-hearted though it was, there was of course a serious message behind what we were doing back in May. The cyclists reached their destination first, and the journey of course for them was inexpensive, and provided a great opportunity to exercise. Yet since the Act has become law, rates of active travel have been static in Wales. And, perhaps more disappointingly, the number of children and young people cycling or walking to school has actually decreased.

So, the committee’s post-legislative scrutiny of the active travel Act sought to find out why. So, we spoke to a number of witnesses during the course of our inquiry, including local authorities, planners, engineers. We heard from Sustrans, Living Streets, Public Health Wales. We spoke to disability campaigners and service users. We received formal responses to our consultation, as well as over 2,500 responses to our committee survey. And we held five focus groups across Wales, to hear from groups of people who are not currently walking or cycling.

The evidence was very clear. There are two main barriers to active travel: feeling unsafe and the lack of appropriate infrastructure. Now, interestingly, the First Minister has said himself that he would not feel safe cycling through the city here in Cardiff. Some members of the committee have told me that they do ride in the city and it's very pleasant and they particularly enjoy riding along some of the off-road cycle pathways.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

But in every town in Wales, there are still areas where it’s hard and unpleasant to walk and ride. There are cyclists who share roads with heavy traffic, where potholes are obstacles and create other dangers as well, where cycle pathways are simply too narrow or too short or badly placed, and where pavement parking has made it impossible to walk safely. In a couple of weeks, campaigners from across Wales will be 'Cycling on the Senedd' to draw attention to the fact that spending on active travel in Wales is about half the level it needs to be.

Of course, active travel was never going to change the way we travel overnight, but it was supposed to change the way local authorities, planners and engineers approached their work. The Act required local authorities to produce maps of existing routes and maps of the integrated networks they would like to achieve. Our inquiry found that there was confusion over the purpose of the maps, which proved expensive and time consuming to produce. Members of the public expected to have a map that they could use to plan their route to work or school, but that was not the result. The Minister expected the integrated network maps to be ambitious and aspirational, but engineers told us that they were wary of raising expectations and that no professional would put a plan together without regard to the resources available. As it stands, there is simply not enough funding.

The committee has recommended resource equivalent to £20 per head per annum. That figure is based on best practice in other parts of the UK. It’s not everything we’d want if there was a magic money tree, but it’s a figure that we thought was pragmatic and campaigners gathering here in a couple of weeks agree. The Cabinet Secretary accepted that recommendation in principle, but in doing so he highlighted that even with the additional capital allocation of £60 million, which he announced during the course of the inquiry, total funding for active travel amounts to just under £92 million over three years. But by his own calculation, a budget of £62 million per year is needed to provide the called for funding: a shortfall of over 50 per cent.

I understand, of course, the competing demands for funding. But if the Government is going to bring ambitious legislation to the table then it must also bring the means to deliver that ambition. I'd suggest that we will not persuade large numbers of new people to adopt active travel until the infrastructure is in place and to enable them to feel safe when walking and cycling. And infrastructure will not be delivered without funding, I'd suggest.

Of course, it's not all about funding, I accept that. There are, of course, needs for behavioural change also. The committee heard that since the Act came into force in 2013, the approach to behavioural change has been inconsistent and poorly planned. The committee heard of a cultural barrier that is preventing active travel being placed at the heart of infrastructure design, with a traditional approach to engineering trumping innovation. Witnesses questioned the commitment of local authority leaders at senior level to champion the change, rather than just leaving it to their cycling officer to deliver in isolation.

Living Streets told us that the day before the anniversary of the active travel Act, the Welsh Government stopped funding for Let’s Walk Cymru. They told us that left Wales without any Government-funded walking schemes, apart from the Active Journeys scheme. And Sustrans told us that only 8 per cent of schools are engaged in the active journeys to school programme.

The Cabinet Secretary tells us that he has accepted in principle our recommendation to include co-production as a minimum standard. However, his response also states that he considers doing so as counter-productive and potentially more expensive. So, I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could clarify that point and whether he indeed accepts our recommendation or not.

I do look forward to the debate this afternoon and hearing contributions from Members before summing up the debate later on.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

We should not be surprised that the Cabinet Secretary has only accepted in principle our first recommendation, which considered a lack of strategic leadership at both Welsh Government and local authority levels to be responsible for the lack of progress made to date, where leadership from the Welsh Government should be strengthened and its expectation of leadership at local level made clear.

It is all well and good for the Cabinet Secretary to say that,

'The Welsh Government has already shown leadership in the implementation of the Active Travel Act',

but as our Chair, Russell George, states in the report’s foreword,

'It’s time now for the Government to change its own behaviour, show some real leadership and get the Act’s ambitions on its feet and moving.'

In fact, the Cabinet Secretary’s wishy-washy, self-excusing response that he will continue to champion this agenda and that local authorities have a clear role to play, therefore, simply won’t wash. Neither will his acceptance in principle only of our recommendation that the Welsh Government should revise its statutory guidance to include co-production as a minimum standard for the delivery of the Active Travel (Wales) Act, involving stakeholders not only in the identification of an issue, but enabling them to be part of the solution.

Describing co-production techniques as merely a 'tool to develop good schemes' illustrates the Cabinet Secretary's continuing failure to understand that co-production is about doing things differently—designing and delivering services with people and communities in order to improve lives and strengthen those communities. Co-production is not about austerity; it's part of a global movement that is now decades old and has made significant improvements across our planet. This is about moving from needs–based approaches to strength-based development—helping people in communities to identify the strengths they already have, and utilising those strengths with them.

In July 2017, I opened and spoke at an Assembly event with the ESP Group on making transport services and technology work for inclusion and well-being. The ESP Group helps major transport operators and cities deliver customer services today and design mobility services for the future, with clients such as Transport for London, the Rail Delivery Group, ScotRail, Stagecoach, London councils and the Scottish Government. As I said there, I am pleased to be working with the Co-production Network for Wales and the growing number of organisations across Wales embracing co-production principles, recognising that this is not about austerity, but about unlocking people's strengths to build better lives and stronger communities.

I also quoted the Bevan Foundation statement that if people feel that policies are imposed on them, the policies don’t work, and that a new programme should be produced with communities and not directed top-down. They added that we can deliver more by understanding what matters and by designing backwards, using the front end as the process-design system, where community involvement in co-designing and co-delivering local services should therefore be central.

In contrast, Guide Dogs Cymru and RNIB Cymru were clear to committee that, although routes can become a no-go zone, there has been very little engagement with blind and partially sighted people or with organisations that represent their views. As the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 states, public bodies must take all reasonable steps to ensure that people are able to contribute to their community, and that they are informed, included and listened to. The Cabinet Secretary must understand that to achieve this means an end to telling people what they can have, and instead asking them what they can achieve.

Sustrans Cymru, the charity making it easier for people to walk and cycle, sees the value in investing and linking up all forms of transport so that walking and cycling is an easy and accessible option. They describe the Wales and borders franchise procurement process as representing a,

'missed opportunity to better integrate walking and cycling with public transport',

and state that rail stations should be active travel hubs, making it easier for commuters, locals and visitors to get active.

In April 2017, I sponsored an Assembly event here for the infrastructure development company, Furrer+Frey, launching their White Paper on developing sustainable, agile, multimodal transport solutions for Wales. This included the full results of a YouGov Welsh public transport survey, which found that only 29 per cent of people think that public transport is well connected in Wales, with just 5 per cent very satisfied in north Wales. I will conclude with their statement that transport infrastructure connects communities and must be deployed in a sustainable, managed way using local resources, i.e. people, wherever possible.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I think the active travel Act provides us with, yet again, a salutary lesson about the dynamic, or possibly the absence of a dynamic, in Welsh politics. It's Welsh politics that is inactive, in the sense that we pass a series of good intentions written into law that have wide consensus, because, actually, the reality of Welsh politics is that we share many of the same values—it's the implementation gap that's the problem. The fact that, yes, the active travel Act embodies clear principles and a clear sense of direction of travel and yet we've gone backwards by some measures, I think is a cause for us to pause and think about the nature of what we are doing here.

The First Minister's comments were referred to earlier, and I suppose I echo his comments about Geraint Thomas—more being done in 21 days for Wales than has been done in politics, maybe. You could say this: 'For Wales, see cycling'—or walking.

I think that, clearly, part of the problem, as has already been alluded to, is the level of funding. Ultimately, that is how we prioritise more than anything else. We've heard the figures and the funding gap that's been referred to—the £120 million that was promised over three years in the Wales infrastructure investment plan.

We are aeons behind, of course, many other small countries that are leaders in this field. We could be a leader too with the Nordic countries, with the Netherlands and with some of the German Länder. Those 2,000 Welsh football fans who went on a pilgrimage to Copenhagen and Aarhus—however you say it—will come back in awe, really. A disappointing football result, but their sense of admiration and appreciation of how the Danes approach public transport and active travel—that was the main thing that I was reading on Twitter.

The transformation of cities like Copenhagen into cycling cities—. Of course, what people forget is that Copenhagen was not always thus. That is a very recent cultural change, and it came about through clear political leadership that then fed through down into civil society as well. The massive 68 per cent rise in cycle traffic, the £240 million or 2 billion DKK invested just in one city in bike-friendly infrastructure—. And the result of that, of course, was that—what was it, two years ago—sensors clocked the new record that bikes now clearly outnumber cars in the city centre for the first time.

Moving to the recommendations of the report, it's good to see that the Welsh Government has accepted recommendation 7, which means that the current 'Planning Policy Wales' review and the planning guidance review will be used as an opportunity to strengthen support for active travel, and that's all well and good. But, really, what we need is active travel to be brought from where it has been, which is at the fringes of transport policy, to the core. That's really the nature of the challenge to all of us, quite frankly.

Recommendation 18 calls on the Welsh Government to create a recurring budget line for active travel funding, as we've heard, at the level of £17 to £20 per head per annum. That's the level of funding that would be required for us in Wales to—

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Will you take an intervention?

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Yes, certainly.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thanks, Adam Price, for giving way. I was the Chair of the Enterprise and Business Committee in the last Assembly when we considered the initial active travel legislation. A certain Lee Waters, now the Member for Llanelli, came and gave a lot of evidence at that time in his role at Sustrans. We said exactly what you've just said in your speech there—that this shouldn't be a bolt-on. Active travel should be at the heart of all legislation that is passed, and at the heart of all thinking that local councils do. Do you share my regret that that hasn't happened now, five years down the line?

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I do. You know, we all evolve and maybe, becoming a father, you start to think about things differently. We say some of the right things and some of the same things. Action speaks louder than words. We need to set a target first to be up there with those small countries—up with Cambridge, which is spending at this level.

Finally, in terms of accepting recommendations in principle, I thought the Government had actually said in January that it would stop accepting recommendations in principle, because it makes accountability very, very difficult indeed. So, can we have clarity as well by the Government? If it rejects or disagrees with recommendations, then I think it's easier if it says so rather than having this sort of—'wishy-washy', I think, was the technical term that was used earlier. Because that does nobody any favours.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

It was 11 years ago that I stood on the steps of the Senedd and handed a petition to Dafydd Elis-Thomas, the then Presiding Officer, for a law to promote walking and cycling. And, a decade on, we have a law and I must say, to the great credit of the Cabinet Secretary, we have the first real substantial chunk of money behind it. And I think the Welsh Government deserves real credit for that. But let's be blunt about this. What I've found most depressing about this inquiry—and we had some good evidence, and it's a decent report—is it's the same issues that have been coming up time and time again for the decade or more I've been involved in this debate. We recognise what needs to change, but we are not driving through the change at the granular level. Eleven years ago, I swapped my second car and bought a bike. I hadn't ridden a bike since I was a teenager, and the experience of cycling in Cardiff then versus now was very different. It was quite an eccentric thing to do 11 years ago; now it's a mainstream thing to do. Cycling in Llanelli now is like it was in Cardiff 11 years ago—it's quite an eccentric thing to be going through the main streets of the town on a bike; I don't see many others. I see others on the traffic-free paths around the town, but not as an everyday mode of transport. But Cardiff, I think, shows that you can through critical mass create momentum and change, and that is happening organically, not because of things that the Government and the council have done, by and large, but because there's a movement behind it.

But the thing I've seen from personal experience is it's the detail that really matters, and we need to see this from the point of view of somebody who would not normally cycle. That's the problem with this debate, and that's the danger of holding Geraint Thomas up as an example. These are not typical people. These are elite sportspeople who are doing superhuman efforts to do Herculean tasks. And, actually, it's my mother and it's me and it's my kids who actually we should be seeing this through prism of, and it's the little things that make all the difference. Is the dropped kerb in the right place? Is there a sign showing you where to go? Do you feel safe and comfortable? And that's the bit where we're falling down.

And I must say I was quite depressed reading the Government's response to the report, because it's a challenging report, but the response that officials have put forward makes you think that they're doing it all, they've got it cracked. And we know from the evidence we've received they're not doing it all; we haven't got it cracked. The first step of change is recognising where you're failing, and there's no shame in that. This is a very challenging agenda of cultural change. We can produce the strategies that we like—we know from management books that culture eats strategy for breakfast, and so is the case here. We heard the detailed evidence about engineering practice, about local authority planning officers and their attitudes, their assumptions. This is the stuff we need to change and what I worry about, having seen Government, is just that the capacity isn't there, the expertise isn't there, the bodies are not there to make this happen. Because it's the detail that needs to be got right.

I think handing over some responsibility to Transport for Wales for this is encouraging, so long as they've got the remit and they've got the capacity to do it. And I worry about the money that we are now allocating—how well it's going to be spent, based on the evidence we've received— because it's all very well a local authority putting forward a plan, but, unless it's complying in detail with the very good design guidance that Phil Jones has done for the Welsh Government, it's not going to work—it's money wasted. I'm all for doubling the funding, but, unless we get the plumbing right, it's money down the drain, and that's where I think the Government needs to focus here. It's no good just having debates and issuing high-level statements. There needs to be rigour, there needs to be focus, there needs to be challenge—both of itself and all the different partners—to get the detail of this right, because it is difficult but it is doable. I really urge the Minister to consider how a step change at that implementation level can take place.

Because, of course, the paradox of this is this is not a transport policy, really, that we're talking about; this is a health policy. It's a health policy we're asking highway engineers to deliver. And highway engineers don't get it. They have been trained to cater to make cars move faster and they don't understand, often. It's no fault of theirs. We have to help them, we have to train them, we have to give them capacity. Where's the role of Public Health Wales in this? We had really poor evidence, I thought, from Public Health Wales. They're great in producing the strategies showing the public health benefits of it, but where are they in these meetings, challenging, just as they challenge on smoking? Where are they pushing the authorities to do better?

I could speak for some time on this, Dirprwy Lywydd, but, naturally, I cannot. But let me just finish in saying about ambition. We said in the Act that we were aiming to make

'walking and cycling the most natural and normal way of getting about.'

And yet the active travel action plan has a target of 10 per cent of people cycling once a week. Now, when you think about the targets we have for renewable energy, which are, in effect, becoming relevant in planning decisions—material considerations—those are testing targets. Think of the targets we have on recycling—those are testing targets. We've got high-level ambition here and our target is 10 per cent of people cycling once a week. That is not going to deliver the ambition we set out. So, we lack the ambition, we lack the rigour and the honesty about where we are, we lack the skills and capacity at a local level to take this through, and, frankly, I'm getting bored of debating this. We all agree it needs to happen. There's a gap to make it happen. We've got to raise our game.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

In the committee's scrutiny on the impact of the active travel Act, which, of course, included consultation with a whole range of stakeholders, a number of failures were identified. Primarily, it was noted that in most areas it had not resulted in people taking up either walking or cycling, and in some scenarios we have seen a decline in active travel participation, most notably amongst children either cycling or walking to school. Now, we know that danger, either perceived or real, does impact upon our ability and particularly parents' desire to send their children to school. So, that is one of the factors that we have to build into this whole scenario of attempting to get people onto bikes or walking.

We were also concerned that certain actions implied in the Act were not being adhered to, for instance, the non-inclusion of active travel in infrastructure in major road projects, or the downgrading of the active travel infrastructure as projects developed and budgets became stretched—Ffos-y-fran in Caerphilly being one project where no active travel infrastructure was provided for, either in planning or implementation.

One message came out loud and clear from all consultation contributors: lack of funding, and especially lack of long-term funding, which meant that local authorities were noticeably lacking in ambition for the implementation of new infrastructure for active travel routes. It also became clear that there was no effective strategic leadership at both Welsh Government and local authority level and that, where there were successes, these were mainly down to the enthusiasm and work of motivated individuals.

The mapping process proved to be more difficult and long-winded than was anticipated by the Welsh Government. Therefore, the £700,000 allocated to local authorities for the procedure proved to be inadequate, resulting in the authorities being obliged to make up the shortfall, with some stakeholders claiming that this resulted in money being diverted from infrastructure projects.

We're all aware of the impact a real sea change in people's active travel habits and their uptake could have on the chronic congestion problems we are witnessing in many parts of Wales, so I wish to acknowledge the worthiness of the Government's ambitions in this area, but they must be properly funded and properly encouraged. Can I therefore call upon the Welsh Government to increase funding to all sectors of active travel implementation in the sure knowledge that the economic benefits accruing from active travel will far outweigh any moneys expended on it?

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I'm not a member of the committee, but I'm very pleased to speak in this debate as I am a strong advocate for the active travel Act, and so are many of my constituents in Cardiff North, which is of course very famous for the Taff trail, one of the great cycling and walking routes in Wales. I know from my post box in Cardiff North how important cycling is, and also the cycling event that I organised recently was very well attended with lots of children and lots of residents of Cardiff North, and that was a great success. So, I welcome the report, which I think certainly highlights the issues that need to be addressed if we are going to be able to change people's travel habits. I particularly welcomed the film at the beginning. I thought that was very vivid and really illustrated the different modes of transport, so congratulations to the Members who took part in that film.

It's already been said that, of course, this is about health. I think Lee Waters said that in his contribution, and so I won't repeat that today. But I think that, when the active travel Act came into force in 2014, we all, rather naively, I suppose, expected to see walking and cycling become the norm for short, everyday journeys, and it is disappointing not to see the upward trends that we expected, and I know the issue about children has particularly been raised by a number of Members here today.

I think the committee's report has identified some of the issues behind why the progress to date has been slow, particularly the safety element, which has already been debated here, and the lack of appropriate infrastructure. But I do think it's really important that we link up all forms of transport so that active travel is an easy and accessible option. We have been talking about having an integrated transport system in Wales for many years, but we're still a long way from achieving it. Integrating active travel with public transport, I think, is an essential part of creating a step change when it comes to the way we travel.

I know that somebody said here today that the Wales and borders rail franchise was a lost opportunity, but to me it's a great opportunity, and I think that there will be a real opportunity with that franchise to ensure, along with the development of the south Wales metro, that we build cycling and walking as part of the whole system. I think it's a fantastic opportunity to better integrate walking and cycling with public transport. As I think the Chair had already said, as Sustrans says, rail stations must become active travel hubs, making it easier for commuters, locals and visitors to get active, and we need to ensure that all stations are accessible for pedestrians and cyclists, that there are safe and secure places to leave bikes and disabled access is improved so that we have equality for all.

I believe that, in Cardiff, there has been a big rise in cycling. Certainly, there are many more cycles on the road in Cardiff, and I think we've all seen how popular nextbike are becoming in Cardiff, with new locations being added on a regular basis. I've already got some of these docking stations in my constituency in Cardiff North, and I know more are coming soon to Rhiwbina, Whitchurch and Llandaff North. And this is going to provide an absolutely ideal opportunity to increase bike journeys in the city from train stations, university, workplaces and tourist destinations.

Of course, we do have the development of the new Cardiff transport interchange in the city centre—the bus station, as we call it in Cardiff. I think that's another huge opportunity to build in cycling, walking and accessibility at that place. It's taken a long time to reach where we are now, but I'm very hopeful that that transport interchange will be a big encouragement for walkers and cyclists.

I think that if we can create a truly integrated public and active travel system, people will find the decision to leave their car at home a much easier one. So, I acknowledge that the report has said how difficult it is and how there's been a lack of progress, and I think it's also been said in this debate how we're very good in this body at making really good legislation—you know, world-breaking legislation—but how that is then applied and how you actually see the achievements is the great challenge. But I remain very optimistic because I think we've got the basis there. Certainly, in Cardiff, we've seen where the will is there—a big change that is really happening as we speak here. So, I feel optimistic for the future and thank the committee for this report.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, I think you've heard the real concerns that are around this Chamber, although there are positives as well, but as the great Mark Isherwood has just told you, your wishy-washy approach just won't wash, and, frankly, that is something I wish to echo very, very strongly.

I really think post-legislative scrutiny is an essential aspect of what we need to do in this Chamber, and we should do more of it. This piece of legislation was born of the civic sector, it got widely praised around the UK, including in The Times newspaper, which highlighted it as an area of legislative activity that really can promote the public good, yet of the 24 recommendations the Government accept 11, and then accept another 11 in principle and reject two. I have to say, if that isn't wishy-washy, what is? 'Accept in principle', of course, is the Government's way of saying, 'Yes, but—' with the emphasis very much on the 'but'. Well, that's not really going to get the sort of transformation that we need. However, I am pleased to see that the Welsh Government has accepted recommendation 15, meaning that the Welsh Government's infrastructure projects will showcase the innovative active travel approaches it expects to see from local authorities, at least trying to lead by example, and it needs to do it much more widely in other areas of public policy, as Julie Morgan just highlighted in terms of the rail franchise, for instance.

So, we need to go a lot further, and let me talk a little about new housing developments. Now, if we transform those and make them really friendly for active travel, it is just an example of what we could do elsewhere, because we don't build that much, and, obviously, we need to go much further than new communities. But at least we should get their design right, and I believe that better use, for instance, of section 106 agreements would be a useful way of ensuring that the planning system hardwires in active travel. The Government, in fairness, is doing this to some extent with electric vehicle infrastructure, which is not exactly active travel but at least it's greener, and I think you should extend that in terms of the active travel agenda. Our policies need to be thinking 50 years ahead as well as what we can achieve fairly quickly, as Adam Price indicated in the example of Copenhagen. So, that's really what we need to see—some real transformation—in order to maximise the potential for sustainable travel, and that really needs a clear and sensible way forward, the Government leading, and ensuring that sustainability in new developments is ingrained for walking, cycling and public transport routes. It really needs to be a comprehensive approach.

I think it's good to look for best practice elsewhere, and there's much of it in Europe. I'm now talking about cultural Europe and Europe as a source of inspiring ideas coming from governments and localities and the people. Can I just highlight—and I hope my German's up to it—an example of this type of thinking in the Vauban residential development located on the southern edge of the city of Freiburg—I think I've got that bit pronounced correctly—which contains 5,000 residents? The aims for this development, which was completed in 2006, included creating a district with greatly reduced car use. This focused on high-quality public transport and active travel infrastructure alongside economic incentives to discourage the ownership of cars and their use. Now, that's not suitable for everyone, but, you know, the old garden village concept—garden suburbs—led the way and led social change. You would get groups that would want to sign up to that type of vision for their life and then have these streets where their children could play and be safe. Much of Vauban's development of a car-free environment has been successful; you can't park in the community, there are satellite parking areas, and as a result, most residents use public transport, walking or cycling to get around. This has resulted in there being only 164 cars per 1,000 people in Vauban—far lower than the average for Freiburg, which is already doing much better than most cities in Germany itself to promote active travel.

Can I conclude? Perhaps we should complete the circle here and have a radical approach in terms of vehicle use in our city areas where we allow it and have a 20-mph presumption, and that, again, I think will make active travel itself more desirable, pleasant and safer. I don't want to emphasise the safety issue too much, because it's still the safest option, usually, to be active in your travel. But this needs to be part of what we should be doing and I do hope that we will see some reform in terms of the speed limits very soon. And I do commend Cardiff in leading the way in Wales at the moment in developing best practice there.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

For my contribution today, I want to build my remarks around one very specific solution to improve active travel opportunities. The specific solution that I propose will come as no surprise to the Cabinet Secretary as it's one that I've championed consistently since I've arrived at this place, and that is the reopening of disused railway tunnels across Wales as routes for walking and cycling.

My comments will focus mostly on the Abernant tunnel, which links Cwmbach in my constituency with the town of Merthyr Tydfil. Travelling 650 ft below ground at its deepest point, the tunnel was opened in 1853 and proved an important rail link between the valleys for 110 years. At its widest, the 1.3 mile long structure has space for two tracks. Even at its narrowest, a large car will comfortably pass through. Its provenance is impressive. The tunnel was surveyed and its plans prepared by Isambard Kingdom Brunel, the great nineteenth century engineer and publicly voted second greatest Briton. But, most impressively of all, it is clear that reopening this as an active travel route could meet many of the challenges that our committee’s report notes.

In line with our first recommendation, I would strongly argue that, for the ambition of the active travel Act to be realised, we really do need flagship schemes that demonstrate Welsh Government commitment to the spirit of the Act. And in the £0.25 million that the Cabinet Secretary has already allocated to develop the reopening of the Abernant and Rhondda tunnels, we begin to see the start of this. Moreover, and in line with our third recommendation, the tunnel presents an innovative and unique way of attracting people who do not normally walk or cycle. When I have spoken about the tunnel, or posted about it on my social media feeds, it has generated a real buzz in the local community. I do believe that the Abernant tunnel would not only attract walkers and cyclists, but it would also encourage people to walk through this historic structure.

The partnership working that has underpinned progress on the tunnel to date also admirably fulfils recommendation 5. To get us to where we are, there has been engagement and involvement with Sustrans, with local firms in my constituency and with councils. I also think that the reopening of the Abernant tunnel would help, in part, to meet recommendation 20 in terms of infrastructure. A common refrain that I and other Valleys AMs have made is that transport networks should not just run north to south, making proud Valley communities little more than commuter suburbs of the capital. Rather, we need to think of strong and dynamic east-to-west routes between Valleys communities. The Abernant tunnel could create a vibrant active travel link between my constituency and Merthyr Tydfil.

At this point, I think it is worth remembering that this is just one former tunnel that could be adapted. When Sustrans did work on 21 disused rail tunnels, they said Abernant was attractive as is it had a much higher potential than the others for changing the way people travel. Sustrans mapped census data and noted the high volumes of people travelling between both Valleys. But they also noted that nine other tunnels could possibly be reopened to become active travel routes. And this could bring the modal shift the committee calls for in our first conclusion.

Moreover, they highlight the benefits we mention in conclusion 3. For example, Sustrans have done work on the potential of reopening the Abernant tunnel as an active travel route to create jobs. Employment opportunities would be created as the route is reopened and converted for active travel, in making sure walking and cycling routes to the tunnel are fit for purpose and in ensuring the tunnel remains in a safe and welcoming condition. Converting the tunnel would also improve connectivity to BikePark Wales and to the Cynon and Taff trails. This could possibly create new jobs and safeguard current workers' roles as visitor numbers increase.

We can see examples where active travel routes have had this effect. When the Two Tunnels Greenway was created between Bath and north-east Somerset as a cycling route, based on part of the former Somerset and Dorset railway line, people flocked from all over to celebrate its opening. The tunnel, as well as becoming a well-used route for local people, has also become a tourist attraction in its own right. Many visitors come to experience what is currently the UK’s longest cycling tunnel, and that tunnel is actually shorter than Abernant.

Of course, active travel is also about making better environmental choices, and boosting health and well-being, especially amongst children and younger people. As I have said, to do this we must make a bold and innovative offer. Breathing new life into our former railway tunnels provides just this.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I agree with those who say that we really haven't done enough over the last five years. I was involved in the drafting of this Act, and, really, our progress on implementation and impact has been pretty disappointing. I think that we have to now pursue at pace the change that we must make—£62 million has been suggested, I think, by Adam Price. This is small beer—absolutely small beer—compared with the charges that will be imposed by the courts, who will drag us back for failing to tackle our air pollution. So, active travel is one of the key ways in which we can do something about the air pollution that is literally killing some of our citizens, and we cannot tolerate going on the way we are going at the moment.

When I was coming into the Senedd this morning, I passed a man on crutches who was taking his child to school. He was walking to school. Probably, he didn't have a car, but, frankly, if he can do it, anybody can do it. There is no excuse for people who are using the car to go for short journeys to take their child to school. Not only are they increasing the amount of poison that their child is consuming, because they're in a car, than if they were on the road, but they're also doing the wrong thing as far as the rest of the community is concerned. And so, we have to both use carrots and sticks to get the change that several people have suggested that we need to make.

I agree with Julie Morgan that nextbike has been a great innovation and development in our capital city. The roll-out of nextbike in Cardiff has been its most successful of any city anywhere in the world. They've only been going since April/May, and they now have—or will have, by this weekend—500 bikes in operation, and 50 stations where you can pick them up and drop them off. And they've got the technology to ensure that it's not worth the while of people to try and steal them, because in the process they've wrecked them and then they're unusable. So, I think it's a fantastic innovation, but it's not sufficient. We have just got to change the attitude that people have towards doing everyday journeys on foot and on bike.

I'm very pleased to see the Cabinet Secretary for Education here, because I do feel that what we do with our young people in our schools is key to making that change, because we need to ensure that proficiency cycling in schools is meaningful, and that it leads to people actually using their bicycles for getting to school. It's very, very rare for children to bicycle to school, and it seems to me that that's one of the things that is something all young people ought to have the opportunity to do, and we ought to have loan schemes to enable parents to buy a bike for their children if they aren't able to pay for it in one go. I would like to see all school leaderships having to provide active travel plans for all their schools, and to make it clear that that is to be expected—that that is how pupils will travel to school.

We cannot go on as we are doing at the moment. We cannot deliver on 'A Healthier Wales', which is our latest strategy for improving the NHS, unless we change people's behaviour. So, I do hope that this report will prompt a much more vigorous leadership to making the changes that are required, because too often, these highway engineers are not people who cycle. When I went home on Monday, I saw this new sign that said—as I approached Splott bridge—'Cyclists rejoin the road'. Well, that's rejoining the road at the narrowest point when they could be staying on the pavement, where they're much more safe. So, it's clear that people absolutely still do not understand. Equally, the alleyways that Cardiff is blessed with are used as rat runs by vehicles in the morning, and they actually push people who are walking to school off the path. They shouldn't be there at all. We need to use our alleyways as safe cycling and walking routes.

I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will be able to assure us that there is going to be this step change in policy, not least because we need to meet our climate change obligations and reduce our transport emissions, and this is one of the key ways in which we can do it.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

As the Minister, at the time, who took the active travel Act through the Assembly, I'm very pleased that the committee has undertaken this post-legislative scrutiny. It was a policy, as has been said, that came up through civic society, with Sustrans obviously playing a very key role. It had a great deal of provenance and support from wider Wales behind it, and it was very good to take it through and put it on the statute book, but it's obviously very disappointing to see that, in terms of the implementation, some five years on, we haven't really seen the increase in walking and cycling, or indeed better infrastructure, that we'd expected.

I do believe that political leadership is absolutely key to this—political leadership to ensure that we do get the implementation that is required for the step change that will deliver these health, well-being, environmental, economic and quality-of-life improvements that we all want to see. Members regularly raise these points with Ken Skates, and indeed other Ministers, showing, I think, the consensus across the Chamber to get the focus and the prioritisation that is necessary. In that light, Dirprwy Lywydd, I must say that I am very pleased that Ken Skates has committed additional funding—although I agree with others that there's still some way to go—and is also very keen in terms of the announcements and the statements that Ken has made in this Chamber and elsewhere that I think do respond in the right way to the points that Members and outside organisations have made. I think Ken Skates is signalling that step change that Welsh Government intends to take, to make sure that we do get effective implementation, better funding and more focus and prioritisation as we move forward. Obviously, the challenge is to drive that across Welsh Government and, indeed, throughout the ranks of the civil service, including the transport engineers, and also make sure that that culture change takes place in our local authorities, where we need the local authority leadership, in terms of the leaders, the cabinet members, and their transport people, to understand what needs to be achieved and take the necessary action to ensure that it is achieved.

I also agree with others, Dirprwy Lywydd, in terms of the importance of school and work, because it was always about purposeful travel. There isn't, at the moment, a Welsh Government-funded workplaces programme to drive some of the necessary change in terms of the culture in our workplaces. The funding for schools through Sustrans is very important and, indeed, delivers a 9 per cent increase on average in active travel over the first 12 months of the programme, but is only reaching 8 per cent of the schools in Wales at the moment, so I do believe we need to build on that, and we need to make sure that more schools are up to speed with the best practice. You go into some primary schools now and in the earliest years they've got balance bikes, they're providing them for the children who perhaps haven't got bikes at home, the training is taking place—you know, it's giving them a very good start. There's proficiency training later on, as Jenny Rathbone mentioned, and we need to make sure that that good practice is present in all of our schools. And we need to make sure, yes, that there is the infrastructure around to make it safe to travel, to cycle and walk, in the way that we want to see. In Newport there's much more cycling along the riverside now, on a Sustrans route from Newport city centre to Caerleon, for example, because they're quality, off-road, safe routes. But we need to provide a lot more of that opportunity in Newport and across Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, one other matter I'd like to mention quickly, echoing what David Melding said, is about 20 mph zones. I do believe, and there's growing momentum behind this—events have taken place and will take place in Wales in the weeks and months to come to make 20 mph the default speed limit in Wales, with departures from that on the basis of particular circumstances of particular roads, with local authorities making those decisions. But it would be a default 20 mph limit that would apply right across Wales, and I believe Welsh Government should put that policy in place. Where it has happened, such as Bristol, for example, they have seen many more people walking and cycling because it is now safer to do so, and because it's been part of the necessary culture change.

So, there are many things that we can do, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I'm very pleased that Ken Skates has signalled this renewed prioritisation, focus and commitment from Welsh Government, and we need to see that carried through.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I now call the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm also looking forward to greeting the cyclists to the Senedd when they visit shortly. I'm looking forward to meeting with a delegation of them. I do hope that they arrive safely and do as Geraint Thomas and many others urge, which is to wear a helmet. Talking about safety, though, the reality is that, as David Melding said, it's incredibly safe to cycle and to walk, and yet we are bombarded on a daily basis with images and messages that encourage us to feel unsafe in our daily lives, because many people want to exploit a feeling of insecurity. It's the reason why SUVs have become such a popular means of transport—because we're encouraged, by advertisers, to believe that unless you're elevated above others, your children are at risk or you're at risk. The reality is that we are more safe today cycling or walking than I think we ever have been, and the reality is, contrary to what we're constantly being told, which is that we all lead incredibly busy lives, that many of us can find that extra bit of time to cycle or to walk to work or to school, or to the services that we—[Interruption.] Yes, absolutely.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm very grateful to you for taking the intervention. With regard to safety, I think you are right to highlight the fact that a lot of the issues around safety are to do with perception, but there is a real issue for women and girls using public transport and cycling and walking, particularly at night. Can I urge you, Cabinet Secretary, as we're driving this active travel agenda forward, to make sure that those real concerns—because those are real dangers—are addressed, and issues particularly like lighting and ensuring that routes go through areas where there are people, where you're not isolated if you're cycling and walking at night as a woman, are part automatically of how those plans are developed?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, absolutely. The Member I couldn't agree more with. There are specific issues that are particularly relevant to and particularly problematic for women and girls. I think I'd also include the elderly in that same bracket and it's something that I'm acutely aware of. But it is difficult sometimes to push back against the huge amounts of money that are spent encouraging us to feel less secure in our daily lives. However, if there is a critical mass, you can achieve behavioural change, provided that's associated with safer, more convenient infrastructure. Then you can see the sort of developments that we've seen in Copenhagen and indeed in Cardiff. I'm sure that Lee Waters will be able to give us his take on whether it's safer to cycle and walk in Cardiff today than it was perhaps 20 years ago. My hope would be that it is indeed safer, and I'd urge all Members to encourage, not just their own constituents, but the people that they engage with on a daily basis, to be as active as they can possibly be.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

It's my firm belief that the active travel Act is a great success. It's something that I am particularly proud of and I don’t think we should underestimate the impact that the Act has already had. It's achieved something that was never done before in Wales. And since its commencement four years ago, the Act has led to the systematic development of plans for safe walking and cycling networks for all larger and medium-sized towns and villages in Wales—more than 140.

Creation of the plans, I think, is a key achievement, but we haven't stopped investing in infrastructure in the meantime. In the four financial years since making the Act, we've invested more than £60 million in walking and cycling infrastructure from transport budgets alone. The figure includes funding for around 125 Safe Routes in Communities schemes, and about 70 local transport fund schemes that focus on active travel. But that money does not include the wider improvements that we've funded as part of road safety schemes, speed limit reductions and integrated transport schemes.

And now that the plans are in place, we are accelerating the creation of active travel routes. This year, we've already allocated more than £22 million of capital investment for local active travel improvements through our local transport grants and pledged a further £50 million for the following two years as part of the active travel fund, on top of the £10 million for Safe Routes in Communities. And as Julie Morgan rightly said, we are going to spend hundreds of millions of pounds improving railway stations and bus stations in Wales, designed to enhance opportunities for people to be active in their travel arrangements.

Now, I do recognise, as highlighted by the committee's recommendations, that processes can and must be improved. The Welsh Government’s response to the committee's report, I think, demonstrates our willingness to do this. My officials work closely with local authorities, with Sustrans and other partners to reflect and to learn from the early implementation experience and shape the subsequent stages of the process. We will identify further improvements that may be made to the process.

We've already strengthened the local authority representation on the active travel board, as recommended, and we’ve welcomed new regional representations at the last board meeting in June. Transport for Wales are also now a permanent member of the active travel board and I’m delighted that TfW is currently recruiting a dedicated active travel lead to build specialist capacity into the organisation, as discussed with the committee earlier this year.

And I agreed with the committee that the Act must be implemented in an integrated manner. It’s widely accepted that active travel has the potential to deliver direct benefits in a broad range of areas, and this means that increasing levels of active travel is not solely or even primarily a transport matter, as Lee Waters said. For my part, I don’t walk and cycle regularly in order to ease wear on my car or to save costs on fuel; I do it for my own mental and emotional and physical well-being. And I think Vikki Howells made a very compelling case for investing in active travel to improve health and well-being across the country.

I value partners working together to make the most of the opportunities that active travel offers, particularly in the area of public health, and I also intend to hold bilateral meetings with Cabinet colleagues to discuss what else can be done in our respective areas of responsibility. I think Lee Waters made a very important point with regard to public health, because it’s particularly important that we ensure that behavioural change is treated with the utmost seriousness, right across Government and across local government, and indeed across the whole of the public and private sector.

I would very much agree with John Griffiths that we have to encourage employers to do more to encourage, in turn, their employees to take up active travel. The economic contract has four conditions attached to it. So, any business looking to draw down funding from Welsh Government will have to comply with that. Well, two of the conditions concern decarbonisation and improvements to the mental and physical health of their workers. Of course, taking up active travel, encouraging active travel, investing in infrastructure within the workplace that enables workers to cycle or walk to work is one means of decarbonising the business and it's another means of improving the mental and physical health of employees, so the economic contract is designed to do just that.

Now, emerging strongly from the committee's work was the need to improve engagement and consultation within the active travel process, and I agree with the importance of consulting not only with existing active travellers, but also those who could be persuaded to try it if the conditions were right.

I'm conscious of time, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I should just point out that we're also in the early stages of developing a new Wales transport strategy. That strategy will set out our strategic policies for safe, integrated, sustainable, efficient and economic transport facilities and services. Of course, walking, cycling and other sustainable modes will be a focus of this strategy.

Finally, many Members like to lecture, sometimes, the Welsh Government about how we should and can do more, but my question back to Members is to ask yourselves how you can do more, as well, as political leaders, as civic leaders. As Russell George said, it's not just about money—this is about behavioural change. This includes your behaviour as civic leaders, so I'd urge all Members to be consistent with their commentary by being more active in the way that they themselves travel, to show political leadership themselves and to lead by example and cycle and walk more regularly, as I know that people like Jenny Rathbone do indeed do—to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

I call on Russell George to reply to the debate.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It was interesting—I hadn't really considered the fact that it was 11 years ago that a petition was handed in, with Lee Waters handing that petition in, not as a Member of the institution then, but on behalf of the people signing it, and that being the start of the active travel journey.

I would like to thank all of those who gave evidence, actually, to our inquiry and those who attended the focus groups, and of course the 2,500 people who responded to our committee survey, being very clear about what the obstacles were to active travel, and those being safety—an issue that the Cabinet Secretary focused on, I was pleased to hear, in his contribution. I'd like to thank all members of the committee for their contributions today, and also the committee clerking team, as well as the outreach team, for their great support to us.

Mark Isherwood focused on co-production as a way to enable cyclists and walkers to help shape infrastructure, which I think is particularly important. We, of course, had a recommendation on this point, and that reminded me, when Julie Morgan spoke, of the Taff trail. We had an example, actually, from one witness who told us about the physical barriers on the Taff trail that prevented him from using his adapted bike on that route. Co-production would have prevented the need to remove those barriers after the event at additional cost.

I think Adam Price rightly talked about the example of Copenhagen, but it would be, I think, highly unrealistic for us to expect the step change that we need overnight, or over five years as well. No-one would expect Cardiff to turn into Copenhagen overnight, but we would expect more to have happened and more progress to have been made. But I think Adam was right to point out that, obviously, Copenhagen were where we are at one stage.

Lee Waters, I thank you for your contribution. Of course, you were an invaluable member of the committee on this particular report, and in shaping our report and recommendations. I won't comment on the term 'wishy-washy' that was bandied around a few times, but I would agree with David Melding in his view that the increasing use of 'accept in principle' in relation to committee recommendations is very frustrating. I don't think this is good for scrutiny, and I have to say that I hope Ministers will consider the use of 'accept in principle'—I'm pleased that the Cabinet Secretary is shaking his head in agreement to that, so I'm pleased to see that.

Vikki Howells, I hadn't realised the extent of the rail tunnels in your constituency, so thank you for your contribution. Jenny Rathbone, you're kind of an adopted member of our committee—you speak on most of our committee reports, I'm pleased to say. You did make the point that you're pleased that the Cabinet Secretary for Education was here, which reinforced the point, I think, that this is a cross-cutting piece of legislation that doesn't sit solely with the Cabinet Secretary for infrastructure and the economy.

I think it is right to say to be positive that Wales's active travel journey has begun, but for the next steps we do need elected politicians, both in the Government and in local government—and I take the Cabinet Secretary's challenge to us all as well—to take responsibility. I think we do need to show leadership to our communities, we do need to work with local people to develop the active travel routes that they want, and we need to provide the money that's needed, and I think that was the conclusion of David Rowlands's contribution. We need to have the resources available to build effective infrastructure and support the cultural change that this Assembly committed to when it passed the active travel Act. The Cabinet Secretary has said that he thinks that this Act has been successful, but I hope that in five years' time from now we can look back on the tenth anniversary and we can all agree then that this active travel Act has been a successful piece of legislation. We have an Act that has the potential to transform the way Wales moves. Now we need to act so that Wales moves in an active way that can transform our health and well-being. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: School Standards

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on school standards, and I call on Suzy Davies to move the motion. Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I've had quite a lot to do in my first 24 hours in this new role. I want to begin, colleagues, on behalf of us all, I think, by offering my congratulations to students, teachers and staff across Wales on the work that you put into this year's exams, and offer our best wishes to everybody, whatever their results.

There are many ways to shape a future, and exam certificates are just some of the tools that you have to do that. Our role here is to be certain that those tools are the best quality and what you personally need to begin shaping the type of future that you will find sustaining, satisfying and productive. But not everybody's sustaining, satisfying and productive future will be shaped by good exam results, so it is just as much our role to build an education system that helps our young people to acquire different tools to build those lives—something I'm sure we'll debate on another day.

So, if Members who were hoping to contribute to this debate by calling this motion an attack on all those I've just congratulated, then you're barking up the wrong tree. This debate is about holding Welsh Government to account on the delivery of promises we all want to see kept: higher standards, more confident learners, more relevant course content leading to worthwhile academic qualifications in this case, which command the respect of all. And as the motion suggests, Cabinet Secretary, you're not there yet.

The purpose of a debate like this, at various intervals, is going to test whether the path you're on is going anywhere near the destination you're seeking. And the response to point 1 of our motion, given in your first amendment, is so full of whataboutery that I suspect that you too are worried by the fact that GCSE attainment of A* to C grades this summer is the worst in 13 years. These new Wales-only GCSEs were supposed to get the best out of our students.

Now, let's be fair here: the number of As and A*s at GCSE have gone up a little bit compared to last year—about 0.5 per cent—although still lower than the two previous years. But personally, I'm pleased to see some growth. I'd like to think that the brightest students are getting a fairer share of attention, which has been difficult when schools have felt compelled to concentrate on students on the C/D GCSE borderline to avoid negative statistics. And I'm not necessarily blaming schools for that. I'm blaming decades of a system that, despite years of talking about this, has done nothing to achieve parity of esteem for non-academic qualifications. It's meant countless young people being shoehorned into GCSE courses that depress their achievement and confidence while they miss out on a different education that could identify and fertilise their strengths.

Back to the motion. The number of highest fliers has gone up a little, but the proportion of A* to C grades has fallen down by 1.2 per cent on last year. That may not sound a lot, but it is worth remembering that last year's results were themselves the lowest since 2006, with Qualifications Wales and Welsh Government blaming the bad news on the leap in early entries—pupils aged 15 or younger.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Now, we've had years of inappropriate early entries and we should have stopped this long ago. But now that they have been stopped—they were down by 77 per cent this year—the attainment of good GCSE grades is lower still: A* to C in maths, English language and literature, Welsh language, biology, chemistry and physics—the biggies—all down according to Qualifications Wales. You cannot disguise this, Cabinet Secretary, as you've attempted to do in your amendment, by combining these unfortunate figures with others. We've accepted a modest improvement in the percentage of A and A* grades at GCSE, but you're hoping to suggest an overall better picture by adding in growth in those particular grades and A* to C grades at A-level.

What you don't say is that the number of learners taking A-levels fell by 10 per cent—10 per cent. Qualifications Wales said that 'fewer weaker candidates'—their words, not mine—took A-levels this year, so of course the proportion of top grades rose. A 50 per cent increase in the numbers taking GCSE science, the new version—that is great news. But is that because a chunk of them didn't take the exam in year 10, as happened in previous cohorts? The small improvements in maths and maths numeracy at 16 don't disguise the overall drop for all-age entries either, but certainly confirm the good sense in getting rid of early entry. I'm glad to see, however, that both of us take Qualifications Wales at their word when they say that, despite all the changes, standards are stable. It is, therefore, I say, perfectly fair to compare this year with last year and those years before.

Before returning to the motion again, can I just commend you on your bravery in referring to the IFS figures in point c of your first amendment, Cabinet Secretary? It's hardly a victory to claim that the spending per pupil here is now much nearer that of a different Government purely on the grounds that that other Government is now less generous than it was previously. Yes indeed, the UK Government is spending less per head than it was in 2008, but so are you, and, from the point where the data between England and Wales is fully consistent, which is 2013-14, roughly, Welsh spending per head has declined year on year, whereas the decline in England only started two years ago. And why has there been a decrease in per head spend in England? Because there's been a 10 per cent rise in pupil population, with which resources have not yet caught up. Why has there been a decrease in spend per head in Wales—and it is still about 2 per cent lower? Static pupil numbers and a deliberate cut in total spending—a very different story and one wholly at odds with the pledge to invest an extra £100 million on driving up school standards made in your programme for government. Point 3 of our motion and both the Plaid amendments, which we support, speak to that very different story. So, let's see how you spend that £23.5 million Barnett consequential that you'll be getting from the UK Government. Perhaps you can tell us as well whether you plan to use the opportunity of local government reform as an opportunity for education funding reform as well.

To finish, Dirprwy Lywydd, on point 2 of our motion and our worry over the number of Welsh schools of concern to Estyn and in receipt of local authority warning notices, regardless of the Government's amendment's reference to the OECD, there are 45 education institutions across half of Wales's local authorities that are in special measures or in need of significant improvement. One of them's been in that state for four years. I think the number of red category secondary schools has risen, and, as you know, we've argued in the past that the yellow and green category schools—the increase there is just as much a product of changing the categories as it is genuine improvement. Only a third of those statutory warning notices to schools has been complied with. I think this is pretty grim and I don't imagine for one second that you're any happier with this situation than we are. But I did hope that, because of your commitment to education, you would take a step that your Cabinet colleagues seem determined to avoid.

I've spent years listening to the Cabinet Secretary for health, in particular, telling us of his expectations of health boards when it comes to scrutiny of performance. And, when those expectations have gone unmet, he just repeats his expectations. His powers of intervention go unused and LHB management remains unsupported as a result, and, in some cases, unpunished. You have powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013 to intervene in underperforming schools when it becomes clear that they cannot sort themselves out despite all the school challenge and consortium support that they have. As of January this year, those powers have not been exercised in the five years of the Act's existence. Now, I believe that every school should have the chance to be the architect of its own recovery, but there comes a time when a Cabinet Secretary has to consider the tools he or she has to shape people's futures and treat those powers to intervene as duties to intervene. And I'd like to know if you think that time has now come. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I have selected the three amendments to the motion, and can I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Julie James?