Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 12 December 2018

260 contributions from 58 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

Nomination of First Minister under Standing Order 8

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first act this afternoon is the nomination of First Minister. I invite nominations for the appointment of First Minister. Carwyn Jones.

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Llywydd, under Standing Order 8, may I nominate Mark Drakeford as First Minister of Wales?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Are there any further nominations? Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Llywydd. On behalf of the Welsh Conservative Assembly group, I am proud to nominate Paul Davies AM.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Any further nominations?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

On behalf of the Plaid Cymru, I nominate Adam Price as First Minister of Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Any further nominations? There are none. As there are now three nominations, I will conduct a vote by roll call and invite each Member present to vote for a candidate. I will call each Member in alphabetical order. Please clearly state the name of the candidate you support when I call your name, or indicate clearly that you wish to abstain. In accordance with Standing Order 8.2, neither the Deputy Presiding Officer nor I are permitted to vote. And that brings us to the roll call, and the first name, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mohammad Asghar.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Abstain.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Abstain.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Hefin David.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Paul Davies. [Laughter.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Abstain.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Julie James.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Abstain.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Carwyn Jones.

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mandy Jones is not present. Steffan Lewis is not present. Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Neil McEvoy.

Neil McEvoy (Independent, South Wales Central)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Eluned Morgan.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

Paul Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Abstain.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Bethan Sayed.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Lee Waters.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Mark Drakeford.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Adam Price.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We will now pause for the clerk to confirm the result of the vote.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Talk amongst yourselves.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The result of the vote is as follows: Mark Drakeford 30 votes, Paul Davies 12 votes, Adam Price nine votes, with five abstentions. As he has received over half of the votes cast, I declare that Mark Drakeford is nominated for appointment as First Minister of this Senedd. In accordance with section 47(4) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, I will recommend to Her Majesty the appointment of Mark Drakeford as First Minister. I invite Mark Drakeford to address the Assembly. Mark Drakeford. [Applause.]

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, thank you very much.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Could I begin by thanking all those who have supported my nomination here this afternoon? And particular thanks, of course, are due to my immediate predecessor, Carwyn Jones, for putting my name before the Assembly, and for the help that he has so consistently offered over many years, but especially over the last few days of transition.

It is, as you all know from yesterday's proceedings, an enormous privilege to lead a political party here in Wales, and even more so to be nominated and elected as First Minister in the National Assembly. I am absolutely conscious both of the opportunity and of the responsibility that comes with this position. And in that context, could I thank those Members, in all parts of the Chamber, for their generosity since Thursday of last week? I really am very grateful for all the messages that I have received.

Today, Dirprwy Lywydd, quite rightly, parties have put forward their nominations for First Minister, and we have carried out that essential democratic process—an election. In the many elections in which I have been involved, almost all of those who have taken part do so because of the contribution they seek to make to the Welsh public service, and, certainly, all those who have been nominated today live in that essential tradition.

Dirprwy Lywydd, when I was elected as leader of the Labour Party last week, I said that I wanted to be a beacon of hope in a darkening world. Today is not a moment for partisan remarks, but the skies around us have darkened even further in the days that have followed. A species of madness has descended on the Conservative Party, in which significant numbers of its Members of Parliament appear to believe that our country's future is best secured by heaping a leadership contest onto the burning platform that Brexit has become. I really do believe, Dirprwy Lywydd, that here, in a much newer and very different institution, things really are done differently and almost always that things are done better.

Yesterday, we talked a lot about the class of 1999. And those of us who were, in different ways, involved from the earliest days of the National Assembly will remember that it too was intended to be a beacon of hope in Wales, a place where old and discredited ways of doing politics could be set aside, and a different recipe developed, in which the things we agree on would be as important as the things on which we differ, and in which the matters that unite our nation would be given some priority over the matters that threaten to divide us. Now, I am not talking about a politics drained of passion or of fundamental beliefs. I believe in a politics that is committed and driven by the sort of society we want to help create—diversity, solidarity, community and equality—on this side of the Chamber, but where we conduct that politics with respect and with a focus on our common humanity, where we recognise that the way in which we conduct ourselves makes a difference in a fractured and uneasy world—a kinder sort of politics.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Dirprwy Lywydd, I thought of that a good deal yesterday when Carwyn mentioned our organ donation legislation. On that long evening when we debated the Bill here on the floor of the Assembly, we were a beacon of hope in lives where hope was in very short supply. But we conducted that debate, I believed, in a way that matched its subject: passionate on all sides of the Chamber, but with no doubt that every contribution was motivated by wanting to make the best possible difference. The Bill we passed was better as a result of that debate, and the Act that we've put on the statute book has gone on to change lives here in Wales and to inspire change beyond our borders, and that's the sort of politics that I believe we all would want to see more of here in this National Assembly.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the first time I came into this Chamber was not as all of you are, here by right of election; I came in here first in the wake of the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, who was making his first visit here as the Chamber became ready for occupation. Any changing of the guard is a time for reflection, as we found yesterday, and my old friend and mentor has been much in my thoughts in recent times. He wasn't an easy convert to this new building. Those of us who were here at the time will remember that, as its foundations were being put in place, the original building—Tŷ Hywel—would sway from side to side under the impact of the pile driving and a not-very-reassuring announcement would be made over the tannoy, advising those of us on the upper floors not to be alarmed because the building was designed to sway about. 'They're knocking up a new lean-to' was what the First Minister of the time was apt to say to visitors as this happened.

He became a convert, I believe, to the place where he spent so many hours, and where, the next time I am here, it will be to answer your questions. You will have seen perhaps amongst the many attractions of being First Minister, that that opportunity has not been the one that most immediately appealed to me. And that, I think, is at least partly because of those long years in which every Tuesday was dominated by preparing the then First Minister for that ordeal. The day would begin by Rhodri going through the formidable file you have all seen, identifying those places where more or better information was required. We would then attempt, usually unsuccessfully, to guess where Nick Bourne or Ieuan Wyn Jones, or latterly Kirsty Williams, would be trying to make trouble later that day. Rhodri would disappear; I would be left to try to find the missing information from teams at Cathays Park, who were, inevitably, on leave, on a training day or had deserted to the Wales Office, before Rhodri returned to absorb, in that astonishing blotting-paper way he possessed, everything that had been assembled for him.

Despite all of that meticulous preparation, how easily it could all go wrong. Like the Llywydd, I have no intention of writing any memoirs, but if I did, then the Tuesday when the BBC started reporting in the One O'Clock News, and with less than half an hour to go before FMQs, that a group of Welsh Government civil servants had been 'discovered', as the BBC put it, at a bonding session in a sauna in Llandovery remains seared in my memory. [Laughter.]

On those occasions when there was clearly trouble ahead, Rhodri would set off for the lift, and I would set off back to my desk. On those days, the then First Minister would pause as he left the room and offer this wise advice: 'Tin hat on', he would say, and then he would set off for this Chamber. So, if there are any family members of mine in the gallery still wondering what I need for Christmas—[Laughter.]—you’ve heard it this afternoon. I look forward, suitably hatted, to seeing you all on the first Tuesday when we resume in the new year. And, in the meantime,

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Merry Christmas to you all. [Applause.]

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Well done, and many congratulations, Mark.

1. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Right, we go back to the agenda now. That’s enough excitement for today, so we go back to the agenda, and item 1 is questions to the Assembly Commission, and the question today is from Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

1. Will the Commission provide an update on the Welsh Youth Parliament? OAQ53106

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I was pleased to announce the names of the first Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament last week—a very special occasion. And I’d like to take the opportunity to thank the hundreds of candidates—over 450 of them—who stood for election, and the thousands of young people who registered and voted in a campaign that was without doubt extremely successful. Best wishes to the 60 new Members.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Llywydd for that response, and I congratulate the Commission on the work that it’s done to get the Youth Parliament off the ground. I think it’s an absolutely wonderful achievement that we’ve now got the Youth Parliament. I’m due to meet the newly elected Youth Parliament Member for Cardiff North, Betsan Roberts, soon to congratulate her. So, I think that’s very exciting for all of us Assembly Members here as well.

In my constituency, many of the schools were involved with the voting process, and I know that it was a very good turnout, and, was, you know, very—it did engage very well. But there were some schools that didn't appear to engage so much. So, I wondered if there were any plans to reach out to some of those young people who are not yet aware of the Youth Parliament, and also wondered if there were any ideas about how you are going to reach out to individual young people, particularly individual young people who belong to particular groups.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for the supplementary. Like you, I’ve been keen to meet the young representative of Ceredigion. In fact, I did meet him, Caleb Rees, and I’m sure that other Members will be looking for opportunities to meet their counterparts, those young people who are looking for our jobs. We need to watch our backs; we’ve got young people now wanting to become parliamentarians of the future, and I think that that’s great.

To respond to the issue about engaging with all schools, all young people, in Wales, I think there was a huge amount done to engage with as many young people as possible in the short period of time we had in the run-up to this first-ever election. There will be a longer period of time now to engage with young people in preparation for the next election in two years’ time, and, crucially, the work that these young parliamentarians will do with their peers and the young people they represent in their Youth Parliament. Those young parliamentarians will first of all meet regionally with young people also from their areas, listen to views from their various regions in Wales, and represent those views in the first formal meeting of the Youth Parliament here in late February.

And the point that you make about also ensuring that we include and reach out to young people from less advantaged backgrounds—the work that our partner organisations, youth organisations, have done in electing and choosing 20 additional members of the 60, I think that’s broken new ground as well. And the mix of young people that we have in the first Youth Parliament is, hopefully, a true reflection of the wide array of young people that we have in Wales. We can learn from the experience of holding our first election, and we can support our young people in allowing them to find their voice in Wales, and then that this doesn't become a one-off—this is permanent and for the future.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I also have met my Cardiff Central representative, Gwion Rhisiart, and I'm very impressed with the three priorities he has, which are to understand better the importance of apprenticeships and job opportunities for young people, focusing on school transport, including active travel, and also the opportunities for the speaking and learning of Welsh in English-medium schools—very excellent priorities. I think—. Obviously, this is a work in progress, and a very important work in progress. I think it'll be very important in due course to get the exact figures of how many people voted, what proportion of the potential electorate, and also the numbers cast for each of the candidates—there were 20 candidates in my constituency—because I think that is part of the way in which we can educate young people on what they have to do, and No. 1, they have to ensure that people are registered to vote, because otherwise, obviously, they're not going to be able to vote for them.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Well, like your representative in Cardiff Central, Caleb from Ceredigion also had local transport as one of his key priorities. His other two were the need for a people's vote and independence for Wales, so slightly different choices there. [Interruption.] Well, it could be many.

But young people will find their own voice and will come here and make their own mark, and it's important for us, I think, as an Assembly to make sure that we allow them to define the way that they work and how they prioritise any issues that they want to prioritise. Over 20,000 young people did register to vote. We need to make sure that more people are registered for the next election. Turnout is something that we also want to work on for the next election. It was an electronic election, but there were some opportunities for within-school voting as well, and that proved to be particularly useful in terms of ensuring that there was turnout. We will have learnt a great deal in how we ran this election, and we can review that and take the views of the young people themselves who were involved in it to consider how we develop on this for the future.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you.

2. Topical Questions

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 2 is topical questions. We have one selected this afternoon. Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the public sector contract currently awarded to Interserve to undergo building works at the Prince Charles Hospital in Merthyr Tydfil? 248

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Cwm Taf Local Health Board is working in partnership with Interserve on the refurbishment of Prince Charles Hospital. The Welsh Government monitors the project in consultation with the health board.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that answer. For those who may not be aware, Interserve were awarded a £25 million contract by Cwm Taf university health board to deliver part of a redevelopment there. Now, I have four questions I'd just like to quickly ask you about this issue, Cabinet Secretary. We know that, in Westminster, your party has called for a—admittedly unlawful—temporary ban on Interserve bidding for public contracts, but it's not the case here. You obviously don't agree with that decision and I wondered why that might be, and if you could perhaps expand on that.

In February 2018, in the wake of a profit warning by Capita, shares in Interserve slid by almost 20 per cent, and this was after a fall of 30 per cent the previous October. So, Cabinet Secretary, for me that is a sign of a company that's not in robust financial health. Were these financial problems taken into account, do you know, when either you and/or the health board awarded this contract to Interserve for the Merthyr redevelopment? Now, Interserve have negotiated a rescue plan going forward, which is very welcome, because an awful lot of people depend on them for jobs. But can you provide guarantees today, Cabinet Secretary, that there are plans in place to ensure that the work undertaken at Prince Charles is not going to be disrupted, and that you have mitigation against anything else untoward that may happen to Interserve? The UK Government have made the decision to continue to put contracts with or to maintain current contracts with Interserve, but what they say is they have a very robust monitoring mechanism in place, and they've got plans in place of a further crisis with Interserve. So, could you outline again for us today whether or not you have such a contingency in place here to protect our valuable investment?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the questions. On the slightly mischievous suggestion that there should be a ban on future contracts, well, we'll take a prudent approach to anybody bidding for a future contract within the national health service or any other major capital challenge where the Welsh Government is seeking to award a contract. And, obviously, the challenges around the financial health of this company would be a factor in taking into account any future choices.

What we currently have, though, is that Interserve have already completed phase 1A of the refurbishment in Prince Charles Hospital, and this work is required because of a fire safety notice— so, undertaking that work and removing asbestos from the building. They've been awarded the next phase—phase 1B—and that was ordered several months ago, before the concerns were as sharp or as highlighted as they are now. So, they're continuing work that is already under way, and it is the point that that work is being undertaken in phases and resource being delivered in phases. We're not paying all of this money upfront and taking a huge risk with either the public finances or indeed with the work being undertaken.

It is the case that our 'Designed for Life' building framework agreement is in use and that does allow for us to both monitor the work that's been done and also, potentially, to move to an alternative supplier on that framework if any company should fail to meet their obligations. And that has happened in the past on smaller contracts, either part way through the delivery of a project, or, indeed, having won a tender. For example, a project in Ceredigion—the Cardigan Health Centre—after the initial award on 'Designed for Life', there was a need to relook again at who that person was, because the initial bidder couldn't meet the obligations they had undertaken.

So, yes, there is monitoring, yes, there is a plan, yes, there are obvious mitigation measures being considered by both the health board and the Government should Interserve fail to meet their obligations. But, at this point in time, the best information I have, and the health board have indeed, is that we expect Interserve to meet their obligations. But, obviously, it is a matter we'll keep under close review.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

As soon as I'd read the report yesterday, I contacted the chief executive of the health board directly for information. I was already aware, of course, that Interserve were a contractor undertaking work on the refurbishment of Prince Charles Hospital. I've seen their work first hand as they've completed the first part of phase 1, and we're now moving into the second part of phase 1.

Now, the health board assured me, in light of the market uncertainty that was brought to their attention some weeks ago, that they had fully assessed the risk to proceed with Interserve as the contractor, who, of course, had already won and been awarded the contract for this second phase of the refurbishment and rebuild. So, my supplementary question to you, Cabinet Secretary, is whether, in your view, bearing in mind what the health board have said about how they have identified the risk of either not awarding the contract and retendering and the delay of the works for possibly another 18 months or so—. Having assessed all of that risk, they've decided to proceed, and I just wanted to ask you whether you are satisfied that there is no significant change in risk from the health board proceeding with the works as originally planned, and whether you're satisfied that they've taken adequate steps alongside the NHS shared partnership to manage that risk.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

'Yes' is the simple answer, because I've actually discussed this matter yesterday with the chief executive of NHS Wales, so this is a matter that was on my mind before the topical question, because I am obviously concerned to make sure that the works are safe and that there is adequate monitoring of the risks and that risks are still acceptable, both to the public purse and obviously the delivery of the much-needed work that is being undertaken. No-one should be blasé either about the risks or indeed about the potential to simply up sticks and move somewhere else; there would be significant delay and it would affect the ability of the health service to meet its obligations, as well, of course, as the workers and uncertainty around their employment. So, yes, we will continue to monitor the performance of the contract, we will continue to be concerned about the financial health of the company and making sure that we protect the value that the public obviously want us to have oversight of to make sure that the appropriate works are delivered. And I recognise, as the local Member, that you will continue to keep a close watch on this matter too.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I have to say that I concur with the Cabinet Secretary's colleagues in London and with the union Unite in their very firm suggestion that it is not appropriate to be letting major new contracts to this company while they are in such a fragile financial condition. I appreciate what the Cabinet Secretary has said about this being phase 2 of an ongoing project and it may not be appropriate at this time for him to intervene, but can I ask the Cabinet Secretary whether he will give consideration to giving further guidance to the health boards as to the due diligence that they should undertake when they are looking at companies to which they are letting these massive contracts, which, of course, as he's rightly said, are hugely important and hugely significant with a lot of people involved in working in them? Obviously, Dirprwy Lywydd, all of us in this Chamber will want this contract to be successful and will be devoutly hoping that the company is sufficiently financially robust to be able to carry it through. But, again, as I say, I concur with the Labour Party in London and with Unite; I am frankly not sanguine.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

To be fair, I think the responses that have been given today, and indeed the information provided directly by the local Member in setting up her questions, reinforce that this is not a new contract, this is a contract that was awarded several months ago. It is a contract on which the health board has already looked again at the potential risks involved in continuing with the work or not continuing with the work with Interserve itself. And, of course, financial health and due diligence are already a feature in the awarding of contracts under the Designed for Life building framework agreement. Of course, it'll be a matter on which, both centrally here within the Government as well as within the health board, there will be proper monitoring of the ability of the company to deliver on the works they have undertaken and contracted to do. New awards for new contract bids—of course there will be appropriate due diligence, and of course it'll be a factor where people will understand if you look at Interserve and any other potential contractors that this is about managing the risks that we have and that we understand and then see the work completed to make sure it provides good value for the public and a good place for people to receive and deliver healthcare.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 3 on the agenda is 90-second statements. The first one today is from the Llywydd, Elin Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It is exactly 100 years ago this week that the post-world war general election was held on 14 December 1918. The Parliament (Qualification of Women) Act 1918 had only just received Royal Assent on 21 November 1918. The Act gave women over the age of 21 the right to stand for election to the House of Commons. In that general election on 14 December, one Welsh woman stood for election, and her name was Millicent Mackenzie. She stood for the University of Wales seat as a Labour candidate. She won 20 per cent of the vote and lost to the Liberal Sir Herbert Lewis. Only one woman was elected as an MP in that 1918 election, Constance Markievicz, and as a Sinn Féin candidate she did not take up her seat in the House of Commons.

Who was Millicent Mackenzie, the first ever woman to stand for election in Wales? In addition to being a candidate in that election, Millicent Mackenzie was a professor of education at the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire, as Cardiff University was then known. She was the first female professor in any UK chartered university. She was a highly respected educational academic and a trainer of teachers. Millicent Mackenzie was also a leading suffragette in the Cardiff area, culminating in her standing in the 1918 election. Such is the lack of prominence of women in our history, I had not heard of Millicent Mackenzie's name until January of this year. But, we must not allow this pioneering woman's name to be forgotten during the next 100 years. As 27 women AMs in this Senedd, we thank you, Millicent, and we stand on your shoulders. Millicent Mackenzie.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I want to use this opportunity to congratulate the community of Llangollen on securing the status of being a plastic-free community from the Surfers Against Sewage organisation. The thanks go to the untiring work of volunteers such as Mair Davies and groups such as Friends of the Earth in Llangollen. This was the first community in north Wales to secure this recognition, but I’m pleased to say that others, such as Denbigh, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Conwy, Bangor, Caernarfon and Anglesey, have all started on that journey too. They have a five-point plan to reach their aim: the establishment of a community steering group, starting a programme of education in schools for non-plastic schools, getting the town council's commitment, working with local businesses, and to work with local community groups in order to reduce the disposable plastics that they use.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

As part of the programme, local businesses have pledged to reduce plastic use in a wide variety of ways, from ditching the straw, to changing to paper bags, bulk buying, refilling containers, removing single-use serving items, ditching plastic cutlery and the removal of plastic packaging. There have also been a variety of events in the town to help reduce plastic, from coffee mornings to litter picks and group talks to empower others to make the change. And, of course, there's been buy-in from public and civic organisations such as the town council, Cittaslow Llangollen, the chamber of trade and local schools. Indeed, I recently visited Ysgol y Gwernant in the town, and the pupils there spoke very passionately about how they wanted to tackle the use of single-use plastic. So, congratulations to Llangollen, and let's hope that many other communities across Wales follow their example in becoming plastic free.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

On 11 December 1282, on a very cold day in Cilmeri, Llywelyn ein Llyw Olaf or Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, prince of Wales, was killed. With his death, by the hand of Stephen de Frankton, one of the soldiers of Edward I, Wales and its people lost their freedom. There followed seven centuries of fighting against oppression, in a striving for self-determination, autonomy and the freedom to be an independent nation. Today, Llywelyn continues to be a crucial part of our nation’s history and our nation’s memory. In him was the spark of a civil Welsh nation and a hope for a better future for our nation. The independent spirit of Llywelyn and the 18 who stood with him until the very end remains in all of us today who are willing to stand up to injustice and for independence for Wales. We will remember Llywelyn by honouring his vision by marching forward towards the creation of a new independent Wales where everyone is free. Thank you.

4. Debate: International Human Rights Day

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon is a debate on International Human Rights Day, and I call on the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip to move the motion—Julie James.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Human rights are relevant to every one of us every day. Monday 10 December, International Human Rights Day, marks 70 years since the United Nations general assembly adopted the universal declaration of human rights. This was a vital milestone document to safeguard against a repeat of the atrocities committed in world war two. It proclaimed inalienable rights to which everyone is inherently entitled as a human being, regardless of race, colour, religion, sex, language, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

A distinctive approach to human rights has been woven into the Welsh devolution settlement. The Government of Wales Act 2006 requires the Welsh Government to act compatibly with the European convention on human rights. This is reflected in our domestic law by the Human Rights Act 1998 and also with its international obligations, including the seven UN conventions signed and ratified by the UK state party. Put another way, human rights are in our DNA. The principles enshrined in the declaration of human rights are as relevant today as they were in 1948.

We are living in difficult and uncertain times, where austerity is falling disproportionately on those least able to bear it, impacting directly on their human rights. Individuals and families are losing their homes and going without food. We know only too well that levels of poverty across Wales and the rest of the UK are too high. Professor Alston, the United Nations special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, stated after his visit to the UK that the responsibility for this rests squarely with the UK Government and its austerity and welfare reform policies. He said

'There are few places in government where these developments are more tangible than in the benefit system. We are witnessing the gradual disappearance of the postwar British welfare state behind a webpage and an algorithm. In its place, a digital welfare state is emerging. The impact on the human rights of the most vulnerable in the UK will be immense.'

The Equality and Human Rights Commission's report, 'The impact of welfare reform and welfare-to-work programmes', published in March, told of the potentially devastating impact of the UK Government tax and welfare reforms on people with protected characteristics. It predicted that nearly half of all households in Wales will lose out from the reforms and that the largest impact will be felt by people on the lowest incomes, including women, certain ethnic groups and households with children. The EHRC's 'Is Wales Fairer? (2018)' report also found that the most disadvantaged groups in Wales are falling even further behind the rest of society.

Globally, many of the underlying values and principles of human rights are being undermined, and in some countries completely ignored. Our political discourse has become blighted by divisive narratives, driven by those who seem determined to create tensions between communities. Social media, in particular, is far too often a haven for racism and xenophobia, with individuals using the concept of free speech as a defence, with an expectation that they can write whatever they please without consequence.

Wales has a long history of compassion, tolerance and respecting and welcoming others. I know that a country that values diversity and enables our various communities to participate equally will be stronger as a result.

It is always the most vulnerable whose rights are denied first—the poor, women, racial and ethnic minorities, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender plus people, children, single parents and disabled people. It is simply unacceptable that here in the UK in the twenty-first century one in five women are victims of sexual violence, one in four women are victims of domestic abuse and two women a week die at the hands of their intimate partners or former partners. We also have stubborn and persistent gender pay gaps in Wales, and far too few women in the most senior roles.

Our intersectional approach to phase 2 of the gender equality review involves working across different equalities strands, including race, disability and age, aiming to ensure that no-one is left behind. We recognise that women and girls who experience multiple and intersecting forms of discrimination are often excluded from progress. We will soon have a clear road map for achieving gender equality in Wales.

Turning to disability, let me start by highlighting the disability employment gap. In Wales, just 45 per cent of working-age disabled people are currently in employment, compared to 80 per cent of those who are not disabled. This is just one example, although a very important one, of the obstacles facing disabled people. Our new framework, 'Action on Disability: The Right to Independent Living', is rooted in the social model of disability, and sets out how we will tackle some of the key barriers identified by disabled people themselves. These include transport, employment, housing and access to buildings and places. Disabled people must have access to the same opportunities as everyone else.

Race is another crucial issue. Seventy-five per cent of hate crimes in Wales relate to race or religion—that reflects thousands of vile examples of verbal, physical and online abuse being inflicted every day on innocent people because of their appearance, and we know that many such incidents still go unreported. Our black, Asian and minority ethnic groups are still not adequately represented in our media, in politics or in our workplaces. We are working hard to change this. Our BAME projects are essential to making Wales the inclusive-to-all and welcoming country we know it can and should be.

Gypsies, Roma and Travellers are amongst the most marginalised in our society. They experience discrimination, inequality and a lack of opportunities, perpetuating the negative views and misconceptions that fill the narrative around them. Recent research by the EHRC showed that 44 per cent of the general public openly admitted to being hostile towards these groups. To illustrate this, comments under a recent Wales Online article about a Gypsy and Traveller community funeral in Cardiff included calls for the residents to be moved to Auschwitz and burnt out of their camp. One person posted a picture of a Nazi soldier with the caption, 'Get the gas.' These comments, which are not an isolated case, remained visible for several days, causing great distress to the Gypsy and Traveller community. We must be clear: we cannot and will not tolerate any such actions or statements seeking to encourage such extreme and abhorrent views.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Will the leader of the house take an intervention?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Of course.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

A fine speech so far, but would she reflect that the leader of UKIP in Wales, Neil Hamilton, is not present in this Chamber to listen to your free speech, yet he felt it was appropriate for him to share a platform with Tommy Robinson last week in the name of free speech? Would she express disappointment in that?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, indeed—a point well made.

We must be resilient in the face of extremists. Together, we must continue to build a strong and diverse society, where people of every race, faith and colour are valued for their character and their actions. We all want to help create a peaceful and harmonious country, where our children and future generations can thrive.

'Prosperity for All' sets out the Welsh Government's vision for Wales as a vibrant, welcoming and cohesive place to live and work—a country we can proud of, which is outward looking and where people of all backgrounds are respected and valued. This vision underpins our new 'Nation of Sanctuary—Refugee and Asylum Seeker Plan', which sets out cross-Government commitments to provide equality of opportunity, reduce discrimination and promote good relations for people seeking sanctuary in Wales.

Every local authority in Wales showed leadership in response to the Syrian refugee crisis by agreeing to resettle families in their area. A United Nations delegation visited us following the first resettlements, and was very impressed with the welcome that had been provided by Welsh communities. Individuals in Welsh communities have led the way in coming together and forming community sponsorship organisations, who have themselves been able to welcome refugee families with minimal Government support. A fantastic example of wanting to contribute to the communities that have embraced them was the election of a Syrian refugee to the Youth Parliament last week from my own constituency. I'm very proud of that, Deputy Presiding Officer. This shows that leadership and a commitment to equality can arise anywhere, but the experiences of those who migrate to Wales remain very mixed, even when they have been here for many years or decades.

Earlier this year, the Windrush scandal exposed tragic examples of individuals being forgotten as policies are developed. Thousands of British subjects and citizens have faced insecure immigration status, despite previous assurances that they are part of Britain. Some were deported and others have been denied healthcare, lost their jobs or been unable to return to Britain. The full extent of the scandal is still being explored, but the public outrage, including from Wales, demonstrated the public's commitment to fairness. I would like to hope that such a policy would never be developed in Wales, but we must be vigilant and redouble our efforts to put people at the centre of our policy making.

This is especially important with the uncertainty affecting our society as a result of Brexit. No-one feels this more than the 80,000 EU citizens who live in Wales, and the smaller number of Welsh citizens currently living in the EU. We have a responsibility to these members of our community. We need to use every tool at our disposal in the coming months to ensure these individuals are reassured that we value their contribution to our economy and our community, supported to apply for settled status and do not experience additional barriers in the future.

Last month saw the anniversary of the passage of the Human Rights Act 1998. To mark this, the Counsel General was asked to deliver the Eileen Illtyd memorial lecture on human rights 2018, 'A Human Rights Act for Wales?' In his lecture, which I was privileged to attend, the Counsel General said that

'a piecemeal approach to human rights protection may well not capture the same benefits that a dynamic and comprehensive approach could bring.'

I want to reiterate that we are acutely aware of these questions, and are committed to looking at ways of strengthening rights and protections in Wales.

Members will also recollect our recent debate on the option to incorporate the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in Welsh law. Since then, I've been reflecting on these issues, taking into account calls from a variety of stakeholders for the Welsh Government to take action to safeguard equality and human rights in the context of Brexit, and do more to embed international treaties in Welsh law. In my recent discussions with, among others, the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, I've been clear that it is not a matter of whether we will do something, but what action will be most effective.

In consequence, I've asked officials to consider the potential impact of a range of actions, including new legislation enacting the socioeconomic duty in the Equality Act 2010, and strengthened regulation. A crucial question is how any such action would relate to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. This work will be linked to phase 2 of the gender equality review. To move it forward, we will be convening a seminar early in the new year to engage with key stakeholders and scope the work that will be needed in more detail.

In the face of unprecedented change, we must, and will, be proactive, ambitious, forward thinking and continue to do whatever is within our powers to ensure that Wales remains a modern, inclusive place to live and work. Our clear goal, Deputy Presiding Officer, is to strengthen and build on these rights for the future. Diolch.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on Leanne Wood to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Diolch. I move the amendment.

As we celebrate 70 years of the adoption of the universal declaration of human rights, it's important that we examine the threats to human rights that currently exist. So, our amendment is timely because, as has already been said this afternoon, just this weekend we saw yet another example of how there are political movements that seek to reverse the human rights protections that we have. A Member of this institution was a speaker at a pro-Yaxley-Lennon march in London, and used that platform to echo an anti-Semitic theory that the French President was an agent of a foreign power. This was a march where those attending wheeled a hangman's noose and called for the Prime Minister to be hung in response to the Member's speech. This, of course, in a climate where an MP was murdered in recent history for campaigning for remaining in the European Union.

I want people in this Chamber to compare and contrast what has happened to the organisers of that march, and think about what the consequences would have been had there been a march of British Asian people shouting death threats at MPs. It's likely that such a march would have resulted in several arrests and the speakers would be looking at convictions for offences under anti-terrorism legislation and lengthy jail sentences. Or what if this march were where people were protesting about inaction on climate change? Would we have several undercover police spying on those attending, with a licence to pursue deceitful sexual relationships in the course of that work? Instead, the main organisers are likely to continue picking up lucrative salaries from the wealthy individuals who have been financing their political movements and enjoying the freedoms that they would deny to others.

Compare and contrast the way the British state has treated far-right political movements and other political movements and you will see why our amendment in the name of Plaid Cymru is needed this afternoon. Another example, of course, is the way that anti-terrorism legislation has been used to convict protestors in Stansted who tried to stop people being deported to face torture and death as part of the UK's actual immigration policy. This all takes place within the context of Brexit, of course; Brexit itself being a political project financed by the wealthy who seek to water down the protections available to workers, environmental regulations and the role of the European Court of Justice in holding Westminster Governments to account when they violate human rights.

The Scottish Government is going to be ensuring that Scottish law has a framework for protecting human rights written into all aspects of law, and my colleague Siân Gwenllian has had an encouraging response from the Welsh Government when calling for something similar here. So, I'd be interested in an update from the Welsh Government on your thinking on that area.

Seventy years on from the adoption of the universal declaration of human rights and it's important that we renew our efforts now at protecting and enhancing those rights from those political forces that want to take them away.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Human Rights Day two days ago marked the seventieth anniversary, as we heard, of the universal declaration of human rights, a milestone document that proclaimed the inalienable rights that everyone is inherently entitled to as a human being, as we heard from the Cabinet Secretary at the beginning, regardless of race, colour, religion, sex, language, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. It is in fact the most translated document in the world, available in more than 500 languages.

As the chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission said on the sixtieth anniversary,

'I want to...say something about one of the UN's founders—Winston Churchill....Churchill's primary motivation',

he said,

'for supporting the codification of our rights as citizens was his desire that we should never again witness anything like the grotesque abuse of power by the Nazi state.'

He went on to say that

'Churchill's vision was about a society that should be allowed to live free to achieve.'

We will be supporting Plaid Cymru's amendment, although we are conscious that there is a meeting point between the far right and far left.

I move amendment 2, noting that the UK Government recognises that all rights set out in the UN declaration of human rights are of equal importance and welcoming the action taken by the UK Government in prioritising tackling modern day slavery, defending freedom of religion or belief, ending inequality and discrimination, and promoting democracy. In September 2017, the Prime Minister convened world leaders at the UN General Assembly to launch a call to action to end modern slavery—one of the great human rights challenges of our time. The UK Government has doubled aid spending on the issue to address the root causes, strengthened law enforcement capacity in transit countries, and provided money to support the victims.

A year on from this, the Prime Minister's call to action, positive endorsements have been received from over 80 countries. At October's north Wales modern slavery Forum, organised by Haven of Light and attended by Wales's anti-slavery co-ordinator, we heard that modern slavery was alive in business, agriculture, hospitality, criminal activity and sexual exploitation. The UK's former Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner, Kevin Hyland OBE, now advises international bodies, including the UN, on human trafficking and modern slavery.

Freedom of religion or belief matters because faith guides the daily life of more than 80 per cent of the world's population, and because promoting tolerance and respect for all helps to build inclusive societies that are more stable, more prosperous and better able to resist extremism. The freedom of individuals and organisations to discuss, debate and criticise, or to hold governments to account, is an essential element of a successful society.

All people should be able to live with dignity, free from all forms of violence or discrimination, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. The UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office appointed its first special envoy on gender equality last year, who works to promote gender equality at an international level, including action to target sexual violence in conflict and unequal access to education. Last month, the UK hosted a historic conference for female parliamentarians from around the world. The UK Government works with like-minded partners at home and abroad to promote democracy as the best long-term guarantor of stability and prosperity, and hosted the Commonwealth heads of Government meeting in April to further promote the shared value of human rights, democracy and inclusion that are enshrined in the Commonwealth charter.

Disabled people around the world suffer discrimination. We must protect their rights and transform their lives. In July, the UK Government co-hosted its first ever global disabilities summit to encourage international action. As the Cabinet Secretary knows personally, because she spoke there, as honorary president of the North Wales Association for Multicultural Integration I was also pleased to speak at the annual celebration of International Integration Day at the Temple of Peace on 9 October. And I will now look forward to attending the Wrexham Town of Sanctuary launch on 1 February, with music from a Syrian refugee choir, recognising Wrexham as a place where people are proud to offer sanctuary to those fleeing violence and prosecution.

Leaving the EU does not affect our rights under the European convention on human rights, or ECHR, as this comes from the Council of Europe, not the EU. The UK Government has clearly stated that the UK is committed to membership of the ECHR and that withdrawing from it would run counter to its vision of a global Britain. The ECHR is—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Are you winding up, please?

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

—both British and Conservative in origin. It was advocated by Winston Churchill and drafted by former Conservative Home Secretary, David Maxwell Fyfe. Well, in the seventieth year since its adoption, the UN declaration on human rights remains a powerful statement of hope and aspiration for us all. There's been great progress since 1948, but it's a dangerous world and there's still much more to do.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, for calling me to speak in this very important debate. As other speakers have said, it's 70 years since the universal declaration of human rights was adopted by the UN General Assembly, which gathered in Paris on December 10, 1948. And it was voted in by 48 votes to none with eight abstentions, and Eleanor Roosevelt, the chair of the declaration drafting committee, called it a Magna Carta for all mankind—and womankind, of course. And I think it's quite significant, actually, that one of the abstainers was Saudi Arabia, and when you think about human rights in relation to Saudi Arabia recently with the issue of the journalists and women's rights in Saudi Arabia, I think that's quite significant that they did actually abstain.

I'm very pleased that the leader of the house said in her address to us that human rights are in our DNA, because I think there is a tendency to think of human rights as maybe being something a bit distant from our ordinary everyday life, maybe something a bit intellectual, something to do with charters and conferences and people sitting around in important rooms and discussing human rights, but I think that what we have to do as politicians is bring home the fact that they are what absolutely affects us in our everyday life. And something like a staggering abuse of human rights then brings it home to us, which, of course, as has already been mentioned—the Windrush scandal. I mean, that was something, I think, that did absolutely illustrate to us all how this had been going—. This abuse of human rights had been going on secretly, quietly, nobody knowing, and these terrible things had happened to people who had contributed so much to our country. You're aware of human rights on occasions like that, but, obviously, it does affect us, all of us, in our daily lives.

I was very pleased on Monday evening to go along to a meeting organised by Helen Mary Jones, setting up for renewing the human rights cross-party group here in the Assembly. And I'm sure Helen Mary will probably speak about that later on if she's called. But I just thought that was a very good initiative, and I'm very pleased to give it my support. And we did have a speaker there from Just Fair, who I thought brought out some really important points. And one of the points that he did bring out was that it's so important that you make human rights part of our everyday experience.

And, of course, the leader of the house has already mentioned another group very close to my heart—the Gypsy/Roma/Traveller group, who are discriminated against on a daily basis. I think if you are a Gypsy/Roma/Traveller, and you go out and about your ordinary day, you accept discrimination on a daily basis. I think it is one of the last respectable ways of causing abuse. And that, I think, is a great task for the Government to try to redress that issue, and I know the leader of the house is doing that. But I think we have to make a huge effort.

But, in any case, I think we have made progress in Wales. We have made progress on children's rights, with the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, and it's been very important, I think, the consultation that we have had with children over many different issues. I'm particularly glad that we did consult children about Brexit, to ask them what they felt about Brexit, although I think, of course, we were mocked for doing that by some politicians. But I think it was so important because it's so important that equality and human rights protections are safeguarded and enhanced during the Brexit process and afterwards. So, I know that the Welsh Government will be vigilant about any loss of human rights that will happen during this process. I think it's also very important, because young people were denied the opportunity of taking part in the referendum—16 and 17-year-olds didn't have the vote—and, although, of course, we voted, their future was affected more than any of us. So, I think it was very important, for that reason, that we did actually consult children. And we do know that children are very concerned about human rights. I think Young Wales did a consultation with children, which showed that secondary school students were concerned about the environment, opportunities to study abroad, human rights and health and well-being, and young people, of course, have expressed in that consultation their frustration that they were denied a say in a vote that will affect their futures.

There is a lot more to do, and I agree with the Equality and Human Rights Commission's recommendation in its report 'Is Wales Fairer?' that the Welsh Government should enact the socioeconomic duty, which would bring poverty and equality together and help tackle one of the biggest drivers of inequality in our country—poverty. So, I hope that is something that the Welsh Government will do, but I think it's obviously very important that we have to look at how that does fit in with the future generations Act.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased and grateful to you for allowing me to make a brief contribution to this debate today. As others have already said, this is undoubtedly a time when human rights are under threat. Goodness only knows what will become of the shambles that is the Brexit process, and how that will affect our rights and our ability in Wales to access those European protections. But what we do know, Dirprwy Lywydd, is that the whole debate around Brexit has allowed some individuals to feel that they have the right to express some particularly poisonous attitudes, and the dreadful spike in hate crime that we saw here in Wales immediately after that vote is testimony to that. And we know that there are elements in the UK press that have undermined the concept of human rights, that have made it seem something that is irrelevant, that is precious, that, as Julie Morgan has said, is something that isn't relevant to our everyday lives. And in the cross-party group, which I'll refer to again, it was very heartening to hear our speaker talk about human rights not being a matter about the left and the right of politics, as it's too often sometimes portrayed in elements of the British press. It is about basic rights that should be accessible to us all.

I was very pleased—and I am grateful to Julie Morgan for mentioning it—to be invited in this context to help re-establish the cross-party group on human rights in this place. I was asked to do so by Associate Professor Simon Hoffman of the Hillary Rodham Clinton School of Law at Swansea University, an expert in the field who I know is known to many in this Chamber. Simon convenes the Wales human rights stakeholder group, a group of over 20 organisations, coming at the issue from various perspectives, and bringing a great potential wealth of expertise that I think that we can use. I was very grateful to Julie for being there on Monday, and I'm also grateful to Jayne Bryant and to Darren Millar, who have joined the group, and I hope that other Members will feel able to do so as our work progresses. As Julie Morgan has said, we met this Monday, here in this place, on international Human Rights Day. And we agreed to work together towards new, made-in-Wales comprehensive human rights legislation, incorporating the appropriate UN conventions into Welsh law.

I've been very grateful, as the leader of the house has mentioned, for the very positive way in which she responded to my proposal to incorporate the disability convention. And I'm sure that she will be having similar discussions with Darren Millar around his legislative proposal on the rights of older persons. And I was very interested to read the Counsel General's remarks, to which the leader of the house has referred today. And I'm very grateful for the whole spirit in which the leader of the house has addressed this issue in the months since I've returned here, and I very much hope—and I'm sure from what she said today—that, regardless of any changes in particular individuals' roles, the Welsh Government will continue to take this positive and extremely unpartisan approach. The cross-party group looks forward to working with the Welsh Government as this agenda is moved forward here in Wales, supporting, and challenging, where that's appropriate. And that group, as I've already said, provides an excellent reservoir of expertise, which I'm sure the Ministers in charge will want to avail themselves of.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I hope that Brexit can be reversed, and I hope that the human rights protections afforded to us by being part of the European Union, and the access that that provides to European courts, can be retained. But whether or not that is achieved, I trust that we can work together to ensure that the vital international conventions are enshrined meaningfully into Welsh law. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

As everybody has said, the universal declaration of human rights is up there with the Bible—it's one of the most translated and published documents in the world, and it is available in more than 500 languages. It was crowd-sourced long before the internet. It was drafted by representatives from around the world, with different legal and cultural experiences, but they had the shared trauma of war. Like the NHS, with which it shares a birthday, the declaration was born out of a determination to build a better and fairer world. But it wasn't a lofty aspiration. It underpinned the formation of the postwar, rules-based global order. And just as that internationalist political architecture has come under increased attack from resurgent nationalist and authoritarian forces, so too have human rights. It's the job of parliamentarians to defend them, not to share the stage with right-wing bullies, who would take away the rights of others. And we must go further. Because in response to this century's big challenges—mass migration, climate change, huge wealth inequality—human rights must be strengthened, not weakened, extended, not reined in.

That brings me, inevitably, to Brexit. Brexit, of course, has important implications for human rights in this country. We shall see what happens this evening in Westminster. The UK Government has legislated to incorporate EU laws concerning protection against discrimination and workers' rights, but it chose to discard the EU charter of fundamental rights, which guarantees protection in employment, equality and privacy. What might that mean, for example, for pregnant women, working parents and people with disabilities? I have no doubt that our current rights will come under attack from the usual right-wing, red-tape brigade and deregulation fanatics.

And one final point: international Human Rights Day also marked the end of the 16 days of activism against gender-based violence. I've been campaigning with the Women's Institute—both here and in Aberystwyth, and across the region—within those two weeks, pushing the respect agenda into all communities. And the White Ribbon campaign asked people to pledge to never commit, condone or remain silent about violence against women. But that message is undercut if, when people do come forward, the police fail to act properly. So, I was a little bit dismayed last week to learn that, according to the Criminal Justice Inspectorates, 8,400 crimes have not been properly recorded by Dyfed-Powys and Gwent police. And I want to focus on Dyfed-Powys as it covers most of my region. Of the 3,300 reported crimes not recorded annually, 1,500 are violent crimes, 70 are sex offences, seven are vulnerable victim cases and 66 are cases of domestic abuse—nearly a quarter of all reported crime. In many cases, victims will only be able to access support services when a crime is recorded. So, this is a serious failure, and I expect the police leadership and police and crime commissioners to get a grip and to stop letting down the victims of abuse. Within this country, they have a fundamental human right to protection. Thank you.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'd like, just for a few moments, to speak about the wonderful opportunity that I think Wales has to continue to lead the way in its approach to human rights. I was very privileged to sit on the committee that considered the children and young people's rights Measure back in 2011. I have to say that that was a milestone, I think, for this National Assembly in demonstrating its commitment to the rights agenda, which has been so important in putting children at the heart of a rights-based approach to policy making and decision making, not just by the Welsh Government, but, of course, also by other public authorities.

As Helen Mary Jones quite rightly referred, I've been very fortunate enough to win a ballot here in the National Assembly to try to bring forward another piece of what I believe will be groundbreaking legislation in order that we can continue to move the rights-based approach into the area of older people's rights. Wales has led the way when it's come to older people's rights. We were the first nation in the UK to appoint an older people's commissioner, and I think it's fair to say that we are regarded globally as a great place for people to grow old. But we have an opportunity, I think, in order to embed those rights further into Welsh law. We already have incorporated them, of course, into the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2006, which, of course, the leader of the house will remember very sharply, I think.

But I think they've been embraced by those local authorities that had duties under that Act and they've been embraced by the Welsh Government. And that's why I've been very pleased to see the extremely positive responses that I've received so far from the older people's commissioner, from Age Alliance Wales and Age Cymru, and a whole host of other older people stakeholder organisations, to the proposals for an older people's rights Bill. I would very much welcome a response from the leader of the house today to provide an update, really, on the work that I know has already been going on in terms of trying to make older people's rights real.

We must never forget that we have over 800,000 older people in Wales. We are an ageing society and we should celebrate the role that older people play and the contribution that they make to our country. But it seems to me that ageism is still one of those things that, very often, we laugh about and that we accept and seem to tolerate in a way that we don't with other protected characteristics such as race, gender and sexuality. I think that that's something that we need to deal with as a nation. So, I think that embedding older people's rights further into Welsh law, helping to communicate and promote those rights to older people, and indeed to all public services and everybody across the country, is an important way of helping people to realise those rights and to be able to access them. So, I do hope that I can work closely with the Government, whoever the appropriate Minister may be, perhaps in the coming weeks and the new year, to help get this piece of legislation onto the statute books.

But I also look forward to working with the cross-party group on human rights. I was delighted that Helen Mary Jones has led the charge on re-establishing that group and I look forward to engaging with it and the Welsh Government to promote this rights-based agenda, which I think we've done very well with to date.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

It's been 70 years since the United Nations universal declaration of human rights was adopted, and we've come a long way in the last seven decades, but we haven't come far enough. For millions of people around the world, those universal promises and protections are nothing but a distant dream. The 30 articles that we hold so dear have little meaning to the people in Yemen or Venezuela, Syria or South Sudan, Somalia or Saudi Arabia. Men, women and children who struggle and fight each day just to stay alive do not enjoy the rights and protections drafted following the horrors of the second world war and the Holocaust. Many are forced to flee their homes and their former lives in search of safety, faced with journeys that are often as dangerous as the one they hope to leave behind as they cross the Mediterranean, or Mexico, in pursuit of a safe haven.

But it is not just those in war-torn regions that are denied basic rights; we see human rights abuses in western civilisation. In the so-called land of the free, US citizens are denied basic rights, human rights, on a daily basis, and it is evident that members of the BME community do receive harsher prison sentences than white members. The US has a leader who is hostile to refugees and he thinks it is okay to forcibly break up families and imprison children whose only crime is to flee famine, war and persecution. Some families are not reunited and despite this, he is sometimes idolised by some people on the far right who hope to emulate him.

Closer to home, our wheelchair users cannot travel together for any distances and be companions on a train or bus because our infrastructure is not equipped to ensure that equality. Also close to home, just down the road in Swansea, in Cardiff, we have a homeless epidemic, where men and women, many of whom are ex-forces, are denied their article 25 rights. Rather than ensuring these poor unfortunate souls have a right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of themselves and of their families—including food, clothing, housing and medical care—some politicians are concerned with ensuring homeless people do not make their high streets look unsightly. In a park in Swansea the other day, I came across a person sleeping behind the bushes, hidden from view, wrapped in a blanket, ashamed to be homeless, and at that moment in time I felt ashamed to be a politician.

We also have politicians and entire political parties who attack people based upon their religious views or their choice of dress, and seek to pit communities against one another and make celebrities out of people who spread racism, bigotry and misogyny online. And we have a right—we have to stand up to these people: people who want to see this document torn up, people who would love to see legally binding human rights removed, people who put petty nationalism before humanism.

On 10 December 1948, the majority of world leaders had the foresight to see that our future did not lie in more warfare and division but that recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world. We have to defend these rights from those who would see them torn up and diluted, not just from the likes of Bashar al-Assad, Vladimir Putin, Tayyip Erdoğan or Kim Jong-un, but from the likes of Gerard Batten and Tommy Robinson—Gerard Batten, who obviously thought that a woman's place was not in politics. Hopefully, it won't take another 70 years before all 7 billion of us who share this planet enjoy the same inalienable rights ratified by world leaders on 10 December 1948. I will be supporting both the amendments, Rhun, and will acknowledge that extremism in any form, whether it be extreme left, extreme right—anywhere—is not conducive to our environment and society. Because we are all equal regardless of the colour of our skin, the religion we follow, our sex, our physical ability, our economic situation or the country we live in, and the sooner everyone accepts that, the more peaceful our planet will be. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

It is important, today of all days, that we, as the National Assembly for Wales, acknowledge International Human Rights Day on Monday, 10 December 2018. Seventy years on since the adoption of the universal declaration of human rights, the advancement of social justice and equality was one of the core fundamental reasons that I, and, I know, others in this Chamber, entered political life, and it is why the progress and maintenance of social justice and equality of opportunity is at the bedrock of all that I do as the Assembly Member for Islwyn. In fact, fighting the ideology of the far right and BNP was fundamental to my personal journey. It was a Labour United Kingdom Government that was an original signatory to the European convention on human rights and it was a Labour United Kingdom Government that enshrined it into our law, with the passing of the 1998 Human Rights Act.

But it is, indeed, as others have said today, a sad day when the leader of the UKIP group smiles and encourages the former leader of the English Defence League and BNP member at a recent rally—and his real name, I believe, is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon—now advising UKIP.

Last year, the UK Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, addressed the United Nations in Geneva. Jeremy Corbyn outlined in that address the problems that our common humanity faces. He stated, and I quote, that the growing concentration of unaccountable wealth and power in the hands of a tiny corporate elite, a system many call 'neoliberalism', which has a sharply increased inequality, marginalisation, insecurity and anger across the world. We know that challenges such as these threaten the advancement of social justice, and, now more than ever, we have to confront these challenges head on. It is therefore saddening to see, every day, the growing queues at food banks across the UK and the increase in evictions and homelessness. It is saddening to see, every day, the continuing financial and time sanctions inflicted on the discredited universal credit—our most vulnerable claimants affected—the cuts to child benefit, the cuts to tax credit thresholds, the travesty of the personal independent payment assessments and the strategic dumping of the UK welfare support net for our most vulnerable, despite the strategic and far-reaching mitigations of our Welsh Government. The recent UN report into poverty and human rights in Britain follows a further damning rights report into how the UK treats its disabled. No-one here should be proud of that. It states that the application of the UK social policy welfare system drives poverty, creates homelessness, disempowers women, the disabled and children, and fundamentally breaks human rights, and, further, that the dangerous ideology driving universal credit, which puts financial resource into the hands of the main, male breadwinner, often, drives domestic abuse and sexual violence, is mysoginistic.

It is therefore important, then, as we contemplate the UK human rights agenda and our place in world, and the implications of whatever Brexit is, on this day of all days, that we do all, I hope, in our power to protect the human rights we have now to safeguard them for the future and enshrine them in our constitution for the future of our children's rights now and for the years to come. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I now call the leader of the house and the chief whip to reply to the debate? Julie James.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very grateful to all Members for their reflections and insights on this important anniversary day. Turning to the amendments, we will be supporting amendment 1. The Welsh Government is strongly opposed to all forms of extremism, including far-right extremism. In 'Prosperity for All: the national strategy', we set out our ambition to work with communities, the voluntary sector and local services to counter the threat of extremism and hate crime in all or communities.

In October, I had the privilege to meet with Sara Khan, the lead commissioner for countering extremism. We discussed the developing role of the commission and how it can support our ambition in Wales to tackle all forms of extremism, including far-right extremism—the most prevalent form of extremism in Wales. While in Wales, the commissioner also met with a number of our stakeholders as part of our evidence gathering. This will help inform a better understanding of extremism and how it may be countered.

We do have an effective mechanism for engagement at senior level through our CONTEST and extremism board Wales. The board is co-chaired by the Welsh Government and the Wales extremism and counter-terrorism unit. The members include the chairs of our regional boards and also senior key representatives of other key partner organisations. Members will be pleased to know that the board commissioned a report on far-right extremism in Wales. They will be considering the findings of this report together with any recommendations from the commission at a future meeting. Despite the extensive work both across the Welsh Government and with our partners, we know that there is no room for complacency. The recent stories in the media about far-right extremism being present right on our doorstep illustrate the need to stay alert to the threat, and all Members, I think, mentioned that threat here today. We will continue to work with our partners and through our established structures to better understand and address these risks.

Turning to amendment 2, although we question whether it’s a priority for the UK Government, the Welsh Government welcomes any action to tackle modern slavery, to defend freedom of religion or belief, to end inequality and discrimination, and to promote democracy. For this reason, we also support amendment 2.

We strongly encourage the UK Government to step up its efforts in all these areas, as there is clearly far more to be done to truly prove it is a priority for the UK Government. In terms of the issues raised, Leanne Wood said quite a lot that I—. Well, actually, everything she said I completely agree with, but there’s quite a lot that we're already doing, and I’ll be sure to update Members about the outcome of the board and it’s commissioned response to far-right extremism. That was mentioned by a lot of Members today, so I’ll be sure to make sure that Members are fully informed on that as it develops.

I was delighted to hear Mark Isherwood and Darren Millar’s strong support of human rights, despite the fact that the abolition of the Human Rights Act 1998 has featured in two Queen’s Speeches. I think it does demonstrate that politics is different here in Wales, and I was delighted to see that support. If only the UK Government would go as far as the Welsh Conservatives have felt able to do, we would all be much better off.

Many Members—Julie Morgan, Helen Mary Jones, Joyce Watson, Caroline Jones and Rhianon Passmore—all mentioned what happens when human rights are ignored, and I think I can do no better than to quote the Counsel General’s speech at the Eileen Illtyd memorial lecture. He said that human rights should be seen as the practical, the basic, the mundane even, rather than be limited, or imposed, or alien. We need a response that portrays human rights as the mundane tools of justice in

‘“small places, close to home”, not the liberal pronouncements of distant marble halls’.

I think all Members today, Deputy Presiding Officer, have underlined the need for us to understand that human rights are basic rights, basic needs that we all have, not something to be used as a weapon, but rather as a shield and a right to dignity and responsibility. I’m so pleased that we’ve had this debate today, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank all the Members for participating so freely. Diolch.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The proposal is to agree amendment 2. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. So, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

5. Debate: Stage 4 of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 5, which is the debate on Stage 4 of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, and I call on the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care to move the motion—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion formally.

I’m very pleased to open this Stage 4 debate on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. We introduced this Bill to the Assembly in April because we wanted to create a simple, once-for-Wales process to check a person’s eligibility for the childcare offer. What we have before us today is a Bill that is going to enable us to do just that.

During the passage of this Bill, we’ve gathered valuable evidence and we’ve debated in some detail matters of detail, matters of current and future policy that are beyond the parameters of this narrow Bill, but I’m really grateful to members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee for participating throughout in this debate and for their thorough scrutiny of the Bill. I’d also like to place on record my thanks to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee and the Finance Committee for their valuable input, and I’m grateful to key stakeholders as well for the written and oral evidence provided, which has helped to inform and develop our thinking.

I’m grateful also to all three committees particularly for those recommendations during Stage 1 that quite rightly made us reflect on the drafting of the Bill and which ultimately led to Government amendments during Stage 2 and Stage 3. May I also thank all Assembly Members for their engagement and their observations during the Stage 3 proceedings only last week.

Now we've seen this Bill evolve over recent months and I consider it to have been considerably improved thanks to the input of stakeholders and Assembly Members. What we have in front of us today is a Bill that imposes a duty on the Welsh Ministers to provide funding in respect of the offer, leaving beyond any doubt this Government's commitment to the offer. We have responded to calls for greater clarity of purpose by passing amendments that make it clear who we consider to be eligible children for the purposes of the offer. And we've built into the Bill a provision that will require the Welsh Ministers to review the effectiveness of the Act and the arrangements for the administration of the offer and to publish a report. I'm also pleased we've been able to address some minor technical and drafting inconsistencies along the way.

Could I also extend my thanks to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the Secretary of State for Wales, the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for their support in developing this Bill. I am particularly grateful to HMRC officials for having worked so closely throughout and so constructively with my officials during the pre-introduction and the scrutiny stages. I'm pleased that we are now in a position where all the necessary Minister of the Crown consents are in place, and I look forward to working with UK Government departments and with the Secretaries of State as we develop subordinate legislation to give effect to this primary legislation. I'm also delighted to be able to help steer this Bill through its final stages and onto the Welsh statute book.

My final thanks, Dirprwy Lywydd, go to the unseen and often unsung small heroes in the offices and corridors of Cathays Park and Tŷ Hywel—the policy and legislative and other officials and advisers who do so much to bring forward our legislation, aided and sometimes brought forward despite the challenges posed by Ministers and others. They know that our approach is to reach out and to work constructively with AMs and others to start with a good Bill and to shape an even better piece of final legislation. I believe we have, all of us, done so, and I therefore commend this Bill to the National Assembly for Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

It is a pleasure to speak in the final stage of the Childcare (Funding) Wales Bill. However, this is one of a long succession of Welsh Government-led Bills that have simply just not cut the legislative mustard. Following along the food theme, my colleague Suzy Davies has frequently said that this is a Swiss-cheese piece of legislation—that there are too many holes in what is a framework Bill, outlined in entirely permissive, uncertain terms.

I have looked back at the contributions made throughout every stage of the Childcare (Funding) Wales Bill, and there are persistent themes that keep cropping up. I would hope that this is the last time that we as Assembly Members, scrutinising as opposition and cross-party groups, come across the same concerns in future legislation going forward. We again see before us a sound policy implemented through swiftly created legislation but without the necessary scrutiny mechanisms, through the continual use of secondary legislation. This Bill was at Stage 3 before we even saw a copy of the report of the first year of early implementer authorities. It was also at Stage 3 before the duty to fund the offer was finally applied by the Ministers. Welsh Conservatives wholeheartedly support the policy of funded childcare in Wales. Indeed, we had it within our own manifesto. But there is too much left to secondary legislation and an administrative scheme that is outside of our input or an appropriate level of scrutiny powers.

Furthermore, two key policy areas are left off the face of the Bill, potentially leaving it as an empty vessel. The offer itself, while written all over the explanatory memorandum and promised by the Minister throughout stages 1, 2 and 3, is not here before us. The age of the qualifying child is also absent, again left to promises and the administrative scheme. Essentially, leaving these two important areas off the face of the Bill gives us no clear baseline to start from. We need to start from a point of certainty, even if it is to be amended in years to come. We do not accept the Minister's reasoning that leaving essential elements to secondary legislation would provide more flexibility. Instead, we have argued throughout that there must be a trade-off between flexibility for the Executive and the right for scrutiny by the legislature. Our amendments at Stage 3 would have provided this balance.

The Minister has further stated that this is merely a technical Bill, which should not include wider policy areas. It is not. As drafted and amended, it goes beyond that narrow intention. As I have noted during Stage 2 and Stage 3, the primary purposes of the Bill have been clearly outlined within the explanatory memorandum—to support the Welsh economy and to support a number of additional purposes, including increasing employment and improving the social well-being of children. If this Bill was merely a mechanism for HMRC to assess applications, why say all that in the explanatory memorandum?

Throughout evidence we have heard that the Bill's primary aims could have been further bolstered through a number of necessary amendments, including provision of wrap-around transportation, extending the offer beyond working parents, and to prevent barriers to taking up the offer, such as additional charges. To place these on the face of the Bill would have given parents and childcare providers a clear signal that Welsh Government would be under a duty to enable more families to access the offer. I would have left it there had the review clause to this Bill been sufficiently drafted to include the powers of the legislature so we could review it at a later date. However, nowhere does it say 'independent' or 'to lay before the National Assembly for Wales'.

Now, we know the Minister's commitment to an independent evaluation at Stage 3, but, at the very least, we would have expected that any report should be available for the Assembly, as the legislature, to scrutinise and to approve. It is unclear from the review clause drafted by the Minister whether an independent review would happen under a future Welsh Government in five years' time, as well as the role of our Assembly in designing that review. The Welsh Government needs to answer these questions, not its own, for our constituents to have confidence in its eventual findings. For all of our efforts to ensure that the Bill had a review clause that would have covered the concerns raised by not one committee, but two committees, about the Bill, or at the very least a sunset clause, all of these have been unceremoniously rejected by the Minister. It is, therefore, very disappointing that the National Assembly for Wales—yes, this legislature—has been dismissed yet again.

My colleague Angela Burns warned the Welsh Government during the final Stage of the Public Health (Minimum Price for Alcohol) (Wales) Act 2018 that future Assembly Members will view it poorly if credible, consistent and outcome-focused evidence to enable proper scrutiny is not collected. Welsh Conservatives abstained from that Act during Stage 4, purely on the basis that it included a sunset clause. Therefore, we again issue this warning on overuse of skeleton Bills. You have rejected key areas that need to be reviewed, including the operation of the administrative scheme, whether the Act has any effect on increasing employment, in line with its aims, and the capacity of the childcare workforce to deliver this offer. Minister, you are an Assembly Member as well as a—[Interruption.]—as well as being a Minister in this Government. You need to convince your own constituents that you have not just listened to scrutiny as a Minister, but—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

[Inaudible.]—please.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Llywydd—Deputy—while we are supportive of the offer, and the use of HMRC to assess applications, it is for these reasons that Welsh Conservatives reject the motion. We will not be supporting it. Diolch yn fawr.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. Llyr Gruffydd, as a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, as my predecessor, scrutinised this Bill in detail, and I, as a current member of the committee, have had an opportunity to scrutinise it also. We, as Plaid Cymru, tabled a number of amendments in order to seek to make the Bill more meaningful, but we were very disappointed that those were rejected. We are of the view that the Bill discriminates against some of Wales’s poorest children. Children whose parents aren’t in work don’t qualify for 30 hours of free childcare, and the children of parents in education and training don't qualify either. And the aim of our amendments was to include children from those families in this provision. I believe that omitting them does discriminate against them and that that is unfair, it is wrong and counterproductive.

Evidence demonstrates that giving the best start in life to young children is crucial to their development, and attending care placements of high quality is one of the best ways of giving that best start to children from poor families. I am aware that there are other schemes available, but those schemes are non-statutory. Some rely on your postcode rather than need, and there is confusion and lack of awareness about the nature and availability of this provision. There has been an opportunity lost to include an important cohort in legislation—an opportunity that would have meant that we wouldn’t have needed to have parents who are seeking work or are in training and education find their way through the whole plethora of schemes available, and that everyone would be able to access childcare under simple legislation that would include all. We therefore believe that the Bill is deficient as a piece of legislation and is contrary to the principles of equality and the principles of the well-being of future generations Act, and we will therefore vote against the legislation today.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Can I call on the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care to reply to the debate?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, look, I'm a fairly easy going and generous minded person, but I'm slightly disappointed by the Conservative and Plaid Cymru response to what I think has been a constructive approach to the passage of this Bill. Can I just say, in voting against this Bill, it is voting against what we already know from the pilot areas is putting £200 to £250 a week into the hands of households—predominantly, by the way, women in those households, often those in the lower socioeconomic groups within our communities? You are voting against that.

I'd say to the Conservatives: you are voting against something that is not wholly dissimilar from what you had in your manifesto. But, actually, this Bill is not to do with the policy offer and I think—[Interruption.] Just a moment, Suzy. This is not to do with the policy offer per se. This is, I repeat once again, a narrow, technical Bill to actually enable HMRC to deliver eligibility and applications into the scheme and to lift the burden off local authorities who are currently doing it under the pilot schemes. Local authorities are asking us to take this burden off them. Now, of course, there is a wider debate around not only current but future direction of policy, but to vote against what is delivering a success story right across Wales in all areas that are piloting this, as witnessed by the fact that we have those areas that are not currently within it queuing up to say, 'Can we be part of it?'—well, you are doing a disservice to your constituents.

If I can just finish on this: it's been described as a Swiss-cheese framework—[Interruption.] Sorry, I will come back, but it's been described as a Swiss-cheese framework Bill. A framework Bill indeed does not fill in all the gaps, but it is appropriate in response to committees, which have said, 'Can we get the balance right between the flexibility of this Bill to actually change in future?', hence why it is underwritten not only by regulations but by an administrative scheme so that we can flex it as we learn from the pilots. So, I'm a little bit—. As an easy-going fellow, I'm a little bit upset at the slightly begrudging, as we approach Christmas, response. Suzy, I'll give way.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for giving way on that. I think you know what I'm about to say, Minister. When it comes to the policy—you say this is a technical Bill; the explanatory memorandum expands that beyond that by some considerable margin. If you were so confident in this policy, which you say is being shown in the pilot areas, it should have gone on the face of the Bill, and then we would not have to just rely on trusting the Government; we could have relied on a piece of legislation that would enforce it.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, Suzy, I thank you for that. But, again, you've missed the fact that, in response to Stage 1 and Stage 2, we brought forward Government amendments to put a duty to fund this childcare offer, and the details then that you are requesting will follow, because of that need for balance and flexibility, within the regulations and also the administrative scheme. Now, if you put it on this Bill, if HMRC turn around tomorrow and decide that, as part of the eligibility, they change conditions with DWP, we would have to come back to primary legislation. So, I do understand you keep on having the argument, 'Let's put everything on the face of a narrow, technical Bill', but I think we have it right here. Now, there was somebody—Llyr.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you. I appreciate you accepting this intervention. I just wanted to have it on record, actually, that our concerns in relation to this proposed legislation reflect those of the children's commissioner. So, it's easy enough for you to stand here and say that we've got it all wrong; it's not just us, and I am surprised that you're taking such a dismissive attitude to some of the comments that the children's commissioner has made.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, Llyr, far from dismissive. I think I've made it clear at committee and elsewhere that the discussion about where we go in future in terms of the wider childcare offer—not, by the way, in terms of the points that were raised by Siân previously, which are to do with parents who are in education and training who would not automatically fall within this offer, but I went through in detail at previous Stages exactly where there was already provision, and the fact that we were going to look at not only bringing that provision together but enhancing that provision for longer in terms of the future as well. So, I'm not dismissive of that at all. In fact, I've engaged with that thoroughly.

But this comes back to the point made by Suzy and others a moment ago. Within the explanatory memorandum for this Bill, we referred to the offer. It's necessary to do that, even though it's a narrow, technical Bill. We referred to the wider offer. But this offer does not stand on its own within Wales, it stands alongside Flying Start; it stands along with what we do with Parents Childcare and Employment, PaCE, for parents who are in work and in training; it stands alongside Families First, Children First and many other initiatives. And there is, indeed—. As I've said to you previously, Llyr, far from being dismissive, I think there is a wider piece of that seamlessness that we need to aim towards within Government, but this is, ultimately, a narrow, technical Bill to put in place HMRC and to lift the burden off the shoulders of local authorities, who are currently doing it.

So, with those remarks, finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, could I ask Members to support the motion, support this Bill at Stage 4? And I look forward, then, to bringing forward subordinate legislation during 2019.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions, and so I defer voting on this motion until voting time.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We do intend, now, to have voting time on the Government business that we've just discussed. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I am going to proceed to voting time. Okay.

Voting Time (Government Business)

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

So, we're now on to voting, and we're going to vote on the debate on International Human Rights Day. I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment, 45, no abstentions, nine against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

I call for a vote on the motion as amended, tabled in the name of Julie James.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion, 52, two abstentions, none against. Therefore, the amended motion is agreed.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

I now call for a vote on Stage 4 of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Huw Irranca-Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion, 30, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: Waste Prevention and Recycling

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move to item 6 on our agenda this afternoon, which is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal: waste prevention and recycling, and I call on Jenny Rathbone to move the motion.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

David Attenborough has galvanised the British public to focus on the amount of plastics ending up in the ocean, imbibed by our sea life and ending up in our stomachs if we eat fish. So I'm glad the UK Government is considering a tax on plastic packaging, targeting those that contain less than 30 per cent recycled material or that are difficult or impossible to recycle, such as plastic straws, black food trays and single-use cups for hot drinks. Whilst these largely unnecessary items, like plastic straws, have attracted publicity, they are the tip of a very large iceberg. Taxing plastic straws or cotton buds out of existence isn't going to solve the scandal of plastics in our oceans. Our aim must be to eliminate waste of all sorts altogether.

We in Wales can and should be very proud of our success in reusing, recycling or composting nearly two thirds of the 1.5 million tonnes of municipal waste we generate every year, but there's no room for complacency. Four years ago, Wales exported thousands of tonnes of materials overseas for recycling, including 4,000 tonnes of plastics. Much of it went to China, which has now banned much of our material from being imported from the UK, and it's ending up in other countries with even less coherent processes for dealing with it.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

The Environment Agency is now investigating exporters who've made false claims on thousands of tonnes of non-existent plastic waste, and a £50 million industry appears to have been penetrated by criminal gangs. Self-reporting invites fraud and error, and there's clearly inadequate oversight of what's happening to our waste. We simply cannot tolerate our rubbish being dumped on desperate developing countries, who don't have the technology to do anything useful with it. Instead, it's left to leak into rivers and oceans.

So, I would argue that the Welsh Government recycling targets for councils are unsustainable if they are based on fragile export markets. No doubt there's a market for aluminium, at £1,000 a tonne when I last looked at it, but other items are simply difficult to recycle—simply, there isn't a market for them. So, we need to move to a circular recycling system. Relying on recycling is masking unsustainable manufacturing practices, which the council tax payer is having to pick up the bill for. In terms of the three Rs—reduce, reuse and recycle—we need to put much more focus on reducing and reusing materials.

The landfill disposals tax will, I hope, tackle the unnecessary disposal of eminently reusable materials—particularly, the higher rate tax for unauthorised disposals should serve as a financial deterrent to illegal waste activity, which is particularly a feature of the construction industry, because those fly-tippers will be taxed twice over, and so they should be.

Of course, the construction industry is the UK's largest user of natural resources. As almost 90 per cent of construction waste is inert or non-hazardous, it can and should be reused, reclaimed and recycled. I would expect the landfill disposals tax to ensure that that will now happen. But, that, in turn, will make it even more difficult for local authorities to meet their recycling targets by weight, and that is why we need to look at a different strategy.

Legislation is needed to tackle the issue of packaging, particularly plastic packaging, that we generate, which is feeding the 8 million tonnes dumped into the ocean. In the Netherlands, for example, many goods are packaged in a clear plastic-like material that's made of starch and is biodegradable. German companies produce ready meals in biodegradable packages, whilst in Wales we already have universities producing packaging from recyclable material, but manufacturing industries are only using them in niche markets rather than adopting a systematic approach.

In Germany, the Closed Substance Cycle and Waste Management Act 1996, introduced 20 years ago, compels manufacturing companies to design wasteful packaging out of their processes. It has created a vibrant waste industry that is amongst the world leaders, and this is something that I think that we could be doing in Wales too.

We need to embed extended producer responsibility into all these packaging items, so that the manufacturers pay for what is currently being paid for by council tax payers. This extended producer responsibility would focus manufacturers on lifecycle thinking, making them have better access to secondary materials for their own supply chains, and also would have social benefits, like tackling litter, such as cigarette butts and chewing gum, that would save councils millions of pounds every year.

Of course, we do have some models of extended producer responsibility already, which is EU law, in things like electrical and electronic goods, batteries and cars. But, outside of the EU, Japan has taken EPR a lot further. It has extensive laws that cover the lifecycle of products from various industries, and requires manufacturers to use recycled materials and reusable parts in new products.

So, we could use the landfill disposals tax community scheme by providing grants to develop, for example, bottle-deposit schemes. Glass, of course, is 100 per cent recyclable and can be used again and again. That also can be applied to plastics, too, as they have done in Norway, where there's a deposit and return scheme in place that ensures that 97 per cent of all their containers are recycled.

So, I hope that Members will consider this as an effective form of legislation.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have many speakers and this is a half hour debate. Therefore, contributions will be no longer than three minutes, and we'll try and call as many speakers as possible, with the exception of the Minister, of course. David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I commend the Member. I know she has a passionate interest in this area, and is amongst the most authentic and early voices, indeed, in urging better public policy. I completely agree with the basic concepts of the circular economy, and packaging, in particular, is a real challenge, and we need to rethink. I'm old enough to remember when you used to go to the fruit area and just take a bag in, an old Hessian bag, and there was nothing around the fruit and the veg—it was just weighed and piled in. And it does need a different outlook to do that, but it's this slower food movement coming to slower shopping, perhaps.

I also want to commend the Welsh Government in terms of its initiative in the summer on making us a refill nation, just looking at drinking water, where we access water, having more free points where water bottles, preferably non-plastic ones, can be refilled. I want to commend Llantwit Major, which I believe is the first town to adopt this on the coastal path route. Other councils have looked at schemes. I know Penarth Town Council were doing this, and encouraging various shops and cafes to be part of the scheme. What I think there is really interesting is that town and community councils can be in the lead, and that's, I think, very innovative.

Can I also commend the British Heart Foundation? I recently visited their furniture store in Canton, where they take in donated furniture and clean it up, re-upholster it and make it ready for reuse. I was amazed when I went in there by how professional that service was, how good the products are and how reasonably priced. So, it can meet many social objectives in allowing people access to good-quality furniture at a tenth of the price, often, of what they would pay retail. Obviously, for that charity, they can get some of their core messages across as well. So, I thought that was a very, very innovative model.

Finally, to come in under three minutes, I believe the Commission took up plastic-free July. I know the Welsh Government has been looking at this as well—how we can eradicate single-use containers, and that's, I think, now at a pace, use of straws, and the like. So, there are many, many little wins that I think we should be making individually, and encouraging wherever we work, whether it's out there in the private sector or other public agencies, to adopt these sorts of policies, and it will add to big shift in our performance in this area. But well done, Jenny.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. And may I also welcome this motion from the Member and say that myself and Plaid Cymru will be fully supportive of this? Indeed, Plaid Cymru tabled a similar motion ourselves last year, so it’s no surprise that we will support the principle today. We do need urgent action in order to prevent plastics from further polluting our rivers, seas and environment. It’s important in this context, too, that we remember the principle that the polluter pays.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

The polluter pays principle, of course, which means that if you create the waste, then you should be the ones who pay the cost of dealing with its consequences. And in this case, I think it's right that we should introduce extended producer responsibility, and require the companies who are responsible for producing so much of our waste to contribute to the costs of treating that waste. We've all heard from the Marine Conservation Society how, if we don't change things by 2050, we could have more plastic than fish by weight in our seas, which is a very sobering thought.

Now, there are serious concerns, of course, regarding where our recycled plastic waste goes, and we heard some of that in the opening contributions, so I won't repeat it. But it does remind us, and increasingly show us, that rather than just recycling, we have to prevent the use of plastics, particularly single-use plastics, in the first place. And action should be taken at all levels of Government, with the aim of achieving zero waste.

We believe this should include a levy on single-use plastics to work alongside a deposit-return scheme for bottles and cans, in order to prevent waste from occurring in the first place, and to reward reusing and increasing recycling where that is necessary. The carrier bag levy, of course, was first introduced in Wales, and it shows how a small step can make a big, big difference. And deposit-return schemes have also been found to be very effective. In countries with such schemes in place, of course, we've seen high levels of bottle recycling: over 90 per cent in Norway, Sweden and Finland, and 98.5 per cent in Germany, which are levels at the moment that we in Wales can only dream about.

As stated in Eunomia's report on options for extended producer responsibility in Wales, if the Westminster decides against implementing a deposit-return scheme or a beverage container tax, the Welsh Government could still bring about a Wales-only deposit-return scheme. The Welsh Government has stated that it intends to work with the UK Government on a Wales-and-England basis on measures to tackle waste, but, of course, we're still waiting to see how far measures from the UK Government will go in this area. Yes, it's welcome news, as we've heard, that there will be a tax on single-use plastics, as announced in the 2018 UK budget, however it's disappointing, as far as I'm concerned, that there won't be a tax on disposable cups, and we await the outcome of their consultation on extended producer responsibility.

If the UK Government isn't ambitious enough in its plans to stop plastic pollution, then the Welsh Government should take the lead, as it did with the carrier bag charge. And I'd like to ask the Minister, therefore, what discussions she's had with the UK Government on this issue recently, and what progress we can expect to see, because if it's clear that the UK Government won't be introducing the radical changes that we need to tackle this problem, then the Welsh Government needs to commit to introducing its own legislation. We need behavioural change at a pace and scale that we haven't previously seen in order to tackle this problem. In Wales, we can and we should go further and faster than the UK Government on this, especially when we have a clear consensus across this Assembly Chamber. And, so, I am pleased to give my full support to this legislative proposal.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

I also support the motion. I agree that it is the producers of the packaging that need to be responsible for their part in the creation of the vast amounts of waste that end up in the bin every year. For too long legislatures have been content to burden householders with the responsibility for recycling and waste disposal of packaging, even though they have almost no control over what most of that waste is because they don't choose the packaging they receive.

The EU landfill directive did nothing to reduce the use of packaging, and actually very little to reduce the waste going to landfill. Whilst the fines on councils slowed the rate of rubbish going to UK landfill sites, we all know that much of it was shipped to China, creating huge carbon emissions from the container ships used to carry all that waste across the globe to be dumped in landfill there. When we see images of thousands of plastic bottles in the ocean, we can apportion a fair amount of blame for that to the EU landfill directive. However, that's an argument for another day.

I'm entirely in favour of a system that holds manufacturers responsible for the disposal of the packaging they use, but we seem to be behind the curve on this. This proposal helps us to catch up, but, ideally, we should be ahead of the curve. Just a couple of days ago, Walkers started an initiative that allows and encourages customers to return empty crisp packets to them. And, for a while now, Costa has accepted not just their own used disposable coffee cups back for recycling, but also those of any other coffee outlet. These initiatives have come about to appeal to customers in response to demands from the market. They can't have come from any Government initiative because there haven't been any.

A packaging tax is not the answer in my opinion. Its cost will simply be borne by the consumer. We have to introduce proper legislation to deal with the scandals that see an online retailer send a tiny book in a huge box, or where a toothbrush is sealed by a manufacturer in a huge rectangle of near-bullet-proof plastic that requires a saw to open it.

I would like to see this proposal encompass more than just food packaging, and take the opportunity to address some of the significant concerns about food waste in the environment. For example, nothing is being done in this proposal, or elsewhere, to tackle the food waste that sees 86 million chickens—more than one chicken for every person in the UK—being thrown into landfill every year. That's a shockingly high figure. That contributes as much greenhouse gas emissions as 290,000 cars a year, according to anti-waste charity WRAP. And in coming up with that figure, WRAP took into account the cost of rearing, feeding and transporting the live birds, along with the releases of gases if they're placed in landfill. It's also been estimated that UK households throw away 34,000 tonnes of beef every year—the equivalent of 300 million beef burgers. In fact, the average family throw away £700-worth of food every year. That's an awful lot of waste that isn't addressed by this proposal. And perhaps there's going to be another one in the pipeline, and maybe you'll tell us about it, if so.

Neither does this proposal address the issue of packaging for non-food items. We're probably all familiar with the mountain of polystyrene and cardboard that accompanies a new washing machine or tv, or actually most goods, which has been used by the retailer to ensure safe arrival, but then it's down to the consumer, via their council tax, to deal with it. I hope this proposed Bill will eventually include action to tackle the excess packaging of those non-food items, and also the immoral level of wasted meat. Turning back to the packaging issue—