Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 30 January 2019

359 contributions from 46 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the Members to order.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It gives me great pleasure to announce today, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, that the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill was given Royal Assent today.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda today is questions to the Finance Minister and Trefnydd, and the first question is from Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on improving public procurement in Wales? OAQ53295

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Following the conclusion of a review of the National Procurement Service and Value Wales, we are engaging stakeholders to develop a new approach to procurement, which will seek to further drive up well-being through public spending across all parts of Wales.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. Obviously, increasing the level of local spend in the context of public procurement is something that the Welsh Government has talked a lot about over the past two decades, but the stats show that talk is cheap. We continue to receive concerns from local companies who are frustrated at the lack of support in bidding and winning local contracts. Now, Scotland are light years ahead of us in this regard, and we hear of other parts of the UK—Preston, for example—where a concerted attempt has seen an increase in local spend by £200 million over a six-year period. When is the Welsh Government finally going to get to grips with this agenda and start to work effectively with local and regional bodies to properly support Welsh-based companies?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising what is a very important issue, in terms of ensuring that our Wales-based suppliers and our entire Welsh supply chain is able to benefit from in excess of £6 billion every year that we do spend on procurement. It isn't fair to say that this agenda hasn't moved forward, because we now win in Wales 52 per cent of the annual procurement expenditure, and that is up from a baseline of 35 per cent in 2004. So, we are making progress, although, clearly, progress isn't as far-reaching as we would have hoped, which is why the former Minister introduced the review of the National Procurement Service and Value Wales, and decided to make some quite far-reaching changes in terms of how we will develop this agenda even further.

It was an in-depth examination, which demonstrates that the way forward really has to be through a much smaller unit, which is more focused on a smaller number of things. So, greater focus will be given in future to collaborative procurement agreements that are aligned to those regional and local priorities, which you've talked about, and also I'd like to explore how we can better support our small and medium-sized enterprises to work in collaboration, one with another, as we see in other sectors—the dairy sector in Wales does it very well, for example. So, we can learn from other sectors to see how we can take this agenda forward here in Wales.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I think you've just confirmed, Minister, that, of course, as a Government, you're still actually looking into the procurement system. But can you reassure us that, once you've made some firm decisions on this, you will actually learn lessons so that small businesses in particular can have the opportunity to actually participate in the procurement system?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Absolutely, and this is one of the reasons why the previous Minister introduced the review in the first place, to ensure that small businesses, of which we have so many in Wales, are able to benefit from the huge investment that we make in the public sector every year in Wales.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

The size of contract decides who is able to bid for it. The smaller the contract, the better the opportunity for smaller, local companies. Bundling up contracts to make one large one only benefits the very large companies. Will the Welsh Government support using smaller public sector contracts to support local economies? This idea that you have one health budget—they purchase all the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board food from one place—excludes local firms.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Again, this is another area where I will be exploring to determine how we can best take forward this agenda to benefit those SMEs we have right across Wales, to ensure, as I said in response to previous questions, that they are able to maximise their take from that important spend that we make and the investment that we make.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

2. Will the Minister provide an update on the devolution of income tax? OAQ53308

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh rates of income tax were agreed by the National Assembly for Wales on 15 January. Welsh Treasury officials are working with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs to prepare for their introduction on 6 April 2019. The recent Wales Audit Office and National Audit Office reviews concluded that implementation is on track.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Can I thank the Minister for that answer? Your probably think it's groundhog day and that we did have quite a discussion about this last week. We've been talking about the devolution of income tax now for some considerable length of time, and the reality will soon be with us. As well as the mechanical act of raising taxes, that also requires an accurate forecasting ability, and we know that that has been done at a UK level now for a considerable length of time, but we have very little experience in Wales of making those forecasts. What are you doing to build up the capacity of the Welsh Government so that we do have accurate predictive forecasting so that you're able to make the best decisions in the future?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for raising this issue, and, of course, the importance of forecasting is to ensure that we're able to take well-informed decisions. And this is one of the reasons why the arrangements with regard to the provisions of data will be one of the items that we do set out in that service level agreement, which is currently being finalised between Welsh Government and HMRC.

HMRC will continue to provide us with monthly reports on pay-as-you-earn income tax liabilities via its real-time information system. This won't provide complete coverage of Welsh rates, but it will certainly be a very useful and very timely and consistent indicator of revenue collection. But they will also be publishing outturn information on it as part of the annual accounts in July, and that obviously gives us a fuller and more complete picture of what happened in the previous financial year. So, having that accurate data will be certainly something that we're working very closely with HMRC on, and it will allow us then to forecast and make the right decisions for future years.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

It is groundhog day again, Minister, because I'm going to ask you about income tax again as it is such an important and pressing issue. Last week, we brought the debate to the Chamber on that pressing devolution of income tax, and you were asked by a number of Members on this side what your intentions were in terms of those rates and your commitment to keeping the rates of tax as they are, consistent for at least the next two years. Can you reconfirm that commitment today?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

This really is becoming groundhog day now, because, of course, I reconfirmed that commitment in our debate and the way in which we supported the motion that the Conservatives brought forward last week, I believe on the same day the First Minister had also reconfirmed that commitment. We have no plans to increase income tax during this Assembly term. We've made that very clear. It was a manifesto commitment.

We've also been clear that we can never say that we will never increase income tax here in Wales as well, because income tax is one of the taxes that we pay to ensure that we're all able to enjoy the public services that we have here in Wales. Any thoughts of increasing income tax and any other work that we do on tax would clearly need to be very much evidence based, and very much in terms of listening to what the impact might be on people's lives here in Wales as well. So, no decisions on income tax would ever be taken lightly.

I would also say that it will be for all of us, as political parties, to set out our future agendas for income tax, in terms of how we present our offer to people across Wales for the next Assembly election, and, again, a manifesto commitment that we would expect to be something that we would all be thinking about.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister. I fully appreciate that you have in the past said, and your predecessor has said, that the intention is not to increase income tax, but it does seem that the ground has moved slightly on this. Certainly, the vocabulary has changed. The First Minister, shortly after he came into post, recently said that it is not the intention to do so. You have again said today that it is not your intention to raise it, but that does mean that the door is left open. Should the economic situation change over the next couple of years, will you fundamentally rule out raising income tax levels before the next Assembly election, or are you saying that the door is open? It's a very important question to be answered, because businesses out there and the public are concerned about this issue.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Businesses and the public I think deserve better than to have unreal fears raised through a series of hypothetical questions and hypothetical scenarios, which have been raised by you on the Conservative benches. I'll just be very clear again: we have a manifesto commitment not to raise income taxes during this Assembly—we have no plans to do so.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

You answered that question without using 'project fear', or I could hear the phrase coming from the other side of the Chamber. I do welcome that commitment, Minister, and I know I've been going on about this now for some time, but I've asked you the question because it is very important to the public. I am starting to get people coming to me, who are concerned. I think it is dawning on people that this massive change in devolution is happening to Wales. The literature has recently gone out to taxpayers in Wales that income tax is going to be now part of the Welsh Government toolbox in terms of dealing with economic decisions. Could you update us on that process of keeping people informed? I know that the letters have been hitting people's doorsteps. Have you had any increased correspondence yourself on this matter? And has the Welsh Revenue Authority had any queries or concerns raised by members of the public about how the process is happening?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for the question. Of course, it's HMRC rather than the Welsh Revenue Authority administering this particular tax. They have had a number of queries from people in Wales. The leaflet and the letter that were sent out offered people the opportunity to have Welsh-language services. So, they had 126 requests to have their service given to them in the Welsh language. We've received a very small number of calls and e-mails—fewer than 20—on this particular issue. We do have a comprehensive programme of communications with taxpayers in terms of notifying them of what the Welsh rates of income tax mean and, of course, what they also don't mean.

So, we've done some surveys to establish a baseline understanding of where people are with this and we'll be undertaking further work on this in due course. But, of course, we've got our new web pages and the first burst of an eight-week social media campaign—we'll be doing some more of that as well—because it is really important now that we have this opportunity to establish a new relationship with the people of Wales in terms of how they understand that the taxes they pay contribute very meaningfully to the work that we do here in the Assembly.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. On the eleventh of this month, the Minister answered two written questions tabled by me on Barnett consequentials for Wales as a result of the 10 December funding package for the Crossrail project. I was told that discussions are ongoing between Welsh Government officials and UK Government officials. Is there any update from the Government on those negotiations?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for raising this. I'm afraid I don't have a further update beyond the fact that discussions are currently ongoing between HM Treasury officials and Welsh Government officials with regard to that Crossrail investment and what potential consequentials could be in Wales. We are awaiting further detail from the Treasury. I have to say that it is very difficult to get timely answers from the Treasury at the moment, but as soon as we have any further information, of course, we'll share it with Members.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

An answer has been given to my parliamentary colleague, Jonathan Edwards MP, who asked a very similar question to mine of the UK Government. He received this response:

'As the Government is providing a loan to the GLA, this is being treated as a long-term reprofiling of DfT’s budget. The Devolved Administrations...have been offered Barnett consequentials of the DfT reprofile and it is up to individual DAs if they take up this offer.'

Can you confirm that the offer has been made? What was the nature of the offer that was made? Were there conditions attached to that? Is it the fact that conditions have been attached to it that is slowing a decision down from Welsh Government, and shouldn't this be a priority to see a potential new source of money as a way of investing in transport—investment that's desperately needed?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

As I say, those discussions are ongoing in terms of how any potential consequentials could be used in Wales and over what time period—whether it would require any reprofiling of our existing capital spend. But I will endeavour to update members on this as soon as I possibly can.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

We know that transport infrastructure spending in Wales is way behind the curve, compared certainly with the south-east of England and the London area, and, in fact, if capital spend here in Wales had kept pace with capital spend per head in the south-east of England and London, an additional £5.6 billion would have been spent here in Wales over the past 20 years. Now, I see that as £5.6 billion missed. Would you agree that this is a classic case of underfunding Wales by UK Government? Would you agree to making it a priority to see if there is a source of funding here? And would you, perhaps, consider that this has been a failure by Welsh Government to stop that gap from increasing over the 20 years since you came into power in 1999?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I would suggest that comparing spending in Wales to London and the south-east isn't necessarily a particularly accurate comparison to make. Normally, when you make comparisons, they are with other parts of the UK that are relatively similar in terms of population and income per head and those kinds of issues.

We're making really significant investment across Wales in terms of capital investment. You'll know about the plans that we have for the city deals, the north Wales growth deal; we're really keen to see what more progress we can be making on that. Of course, last year, in May alone, we announced another £266 million of new capital investments alongside the publication of the Wales infrastructure investment plan midpoint review. And our budget, which we recently passed through the Assembly, obviously builds on that. So, we have investment of an additional £60 million on road refurbishments, £78 million further for the local transport fund, almost £43 million over two years on the Taff's Well rail depot, £35 million investment in the social housing grant and £25 million to create seven strategic hubs across the south Wales Valleys in line with our ministerial taskforce work on the south Wales Valleys. So, we are certainly making serious capital investment here in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. I wonder if the Minister saw one of the attractions of her new job as taking responsibility for the complexities of local government finance in the years ahead, and whether she agrees with me that the funding formula for local government is now looking increasingly dated and requires reform. In particular, one of its defects is that the mechanism within it seems to work so as to force councils to raise council tax almost every year. Welsh Government predicts council spending over the next year, and a larger need prediction brings about a larger block grant. The need prediction is based upon council spending in previous years, so if there's a previous history of high council taxes, then you get more money; if you've got lower council taxes, then you get less money. So, councils need to increase the council tax every year to get higher financial need estimates and higher grants from the Welsh Government. So, there's no incentive whatever within the formula as it currently is for local councils to get better value for money or to economise in spending. What we need to do is to have a formula that removes such a perversity.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for that question. I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you now and let you know that it is actually Julie James who had this given to her in her portfolio. However, clearly, I have a strong interest in ensuring that we do fund local government properly here in Wales, which is why I attended, alongside Julie James, the finance sub-group very recently. The finance sub-group brings together leaders of local authorities, police and crime commissioners and others to talk about specific issues, such as the local government settlement funding formula.

I will say that we were clear in that meeting that, actually, Julie James and I are very open to other ideas. If local authorities feel, as a collective through the Welsh Local Government Association, that this formula isn't working for them and they want to come forward with other ideas as to how things could be improved, then certainly we would be keen to explore any ideas that they have to bring forward to us.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I'm sorry I misunderstood the complexities of the shuffled portfolios within ministries as well as between them, but rises in council tax are imposing enormous burdens upon individuals and, indeed, businesses. The average band for council tax has more than trebled in Wales since 1997 and it's gone up by two and a half times since the Assembly was created. Even the former CEO of the Welsh Local Government Association, Steve Thomas, has said:

'The fact is that the formula as it currently stands is held together by duct tape and sticking plasters'

and can't continue. We do need to have an urgent review of local authority funding and to reconsider the link between the Welsh Government's predictions of local authority need and previous years' council tax rates, which are embedded in the formula. As the finance Minister, of course, the Minister must be a pivotal ingredient in any change that might be brought about in the future. So, I'd just like to get some idea of the extent to which the Welsh Government sees this as a priority. It's not something that can be answered overnight, and it may take several years to bring about meaningful change. So, are we going to see any moves towards some kind of revision being made during the course of this Assembly?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for that question. I was clear with the finance sub-group that I do take a very strong and direct interest in this agenda. So, whereas a finance Minister would normally have a slot on their agenda, I've been clear that I'd like to actually come along for all of it, to hear for myself, really, the kind of pressures that local authorities are under, and the kind of ideas that they have for things that could alleviate the serious pressures they're under. I think it's fair to say that, when Julie James introduced the local government settlement debate, she was very clear that she wasn't planning to sell the settlement as an excellent settlement to local authorities; she very much reflected on the fact that we are living in the ninth year of austerity, and there is huge pressure right across Government. She made all of those points about Welsh Government funding being comparatively so much less than it was a decade ago.

The core funding that we currently provide to local authorities, as the Member will know, is distributed according to relative need, and that takes into account a formula that has a wealth of information, such as demographic, physical, economic and social characteristics of those local authorities, and also it takes account of their ability to raise their own funds—through council tax, for example. There have been incremental changes to the formula over the years. So, over 2017-18 and 2018-19 significant changes, actually, were made to the funding formula, to take account of the additional costs incurred as a result of increased travel times in relatively sparsely populated areas, for example. So, as I say, the Minister and I are very much all ears for ideas that would come forward from local authorities.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

One of the features that I think does need to be looked at is that, when you look at the councils that have had an increase in funding most recently, many of them have seen a substantial increase in their reserves. So, this is money that could be spent on public services but is being held in bank accounts and not available for dealing with the current problems. Rhondda Cynon Taf, for example, has a staggering amount of £152 million in its reserves, up from £148.9 million in the previous year. Torfaen has nearly £30 million in reserves, up from £24 million, and Neath Port Talbot is up to £76 million from £65 million. So, surely, there must be some kind of control on councils keeping an excess of the cash available to them in reserves. After all, the Auditor General for Wales has recently criticised community councils for reserves rising to £38.7 million in Wales by April 2018. So, I hope that the finance Minister will support my call for the role of reserves to be reconsidered in relation to the block grant settlement.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, clearly, council leaders will have to manage their budgets effectively, but within those reserves, what perhaps isn't always completely obvious from the top-line figures, certainly, is that much of it, or a certain percentage of it, will already be committed to a number of projects—school building projects and so on. So, I think it's important to delve down into the figures to have a fuller picture, really, as to the plans that the local authority has for those reserves.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on budget allocations to the housing and local government portfolio in relation to the post office network? OAQ53319

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We recognise the importance of local post offices in serving our communities. While responsibility for the post office network is non-devolved, we continue to make representations to the UK Government regarding our concerns over the closure of post offices.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

In the last month, we've lost three bank branches in the Rhondda. Barclays announced that they're closing their branches in Tonypandy and Ferndale, and more recently, Santander have announced that they are going to close their branch in Tonypandy as well. This now means that there is not a single bank branch in the Rhondda Fach. Now, it's clear to me that in the wake of this callous closure programme from the corporate banks, the post office network is going to take on an extra level of importance. In the past, we had the post office diversification fund. That was a key component of the Plaid Cymru-Labour One Wales Government that awarded grants to post offices to make those businesses more sustainable. If we could protect and strengthen the post office network, it could ensure that people and communities do not become completely cut off from financial services. So, in the light of this, will you consider making funds available to reactivate such a fund?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising that. I'm afraid that in the current climate we just don't have the funds available to us to be undertaking work that is rightly the work of the UK Government. The UK Government does have a £2 billion post office network transformation programme to modernise those post offices. It's very much in the way that we did previously through the diversification fund. Welsh post offices are able to apply to that fund, and I'd certainly encourage them to do so.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I was disappointed with the beginning of that answer, I have to say, Trefnydd. With so many bank closures, we are relying on post offices for access to cash now. Can you clarify whether the post office charges banks for the service that people can use there, or, possibly, is the charge the other way round? Does the post office charge the bank or does the bank charge the post office? And is there any difference in those charges depending on where those post offices are located? As we've heard recently, a differential is now being considered for the Link ATM network with more deprived and rural areas incurring smaller charges between the two organisations than, perhaps, city centres. But that could be a disincentive or an incentive for post offices, depending where they are. Obviously, I accept that Welsh Government has limited powers in this field, but in deciding which post offices you could support through your financial inclusion policies, how do you horizon scan for new threats to access to cash in deciding which post offices you could support?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for raising that. Of course, bank regulation and the post office network are both responsibilities of the UK Government and we've been very clear time and time again that the UK Government does need to take a more coherent and strategic approach to community banking. We believe that all banks, when they leave a community, do have a responsibility to the customers who have often been giving their loyalty to that bank for decades, in many cases.

We know that, actually, six banks in total, that we're aware of, are due to close later this year, including the one previously mentioned in Tonypandy, which is one of the reasons that we're interested in exploring the idea of a community bank for Wales. So, we're in some very early-stage discussions with a number of stakeholders who are keen to explore with us the feasibility of establishing that community bank in Wales. That work will be led by partners who will prepare a full market assessment and business plan with the intention to submitting it then to the Bank of England as an application later on this year. Banking professionals working within the Development Bank of Wales will support the work, providing advice and guidance where appropriate and ensuring that the creation of a community bank does integrate with the existing financial institutions, including, for example, the Development Bank for Wales and the credit unions. The credit unions particularly are a really important part of that financial inclusion that the Member was talking about.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

4. Will the Minister set out the Welsh Government's policy in relation to developing taxation measures? OAQ53314

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Welsh tax policy will be developed in line with the principles set out in our tax policy framework. I will be taking a considered approach, seeking to raise revenue fairly, and engaging widely with taxpayers and other stakeholders.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, taxation powers offer the opportunity to introduce change to the tax system to help create a fairer and more equal Wales. At the moment, private schools sustain an institutionalised unfairness and inequality, working against social mobility by entrenching educational inequality that feeds through to careers and life chances, with ex-private school pupils disproportionately featuring at the top of professions and businesses. Will you carefully consider ending the tax advantages of charitable status for private schools to further equality of opportunity and outcome in Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for that question. Of course, fairness is our No. 1 principle in the tax principles that are guiding us in terms of the development of our tax policy in Wales. I can confirm that I do intend to consult over the next 12 months on proposals to place independent schools and private hospitals on an equal footing with their public sector counterparts in respect of the payment of non-domestic rates. The consultation will consider removing charitable rate relief from private schools and private hospitals where they're registered as charities. State schools and hospitals, of course, are obliged to pay non-domestic rates, as are all other ratepayers, and this is an important contribution to the cost of the vital local services that are delivered in our communities. So, this brings in the question of equality, which you've mentioned, alongside fairness—if we do change the eligibility of these institutions as a result of the consultation, it will put them on an equal footing with the state schools and hospitals.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Would you agree, Minister, that Welsh Government policy with regard to Welsh rates of income tax must include a commitment to providing comprehensive and accessible guidance to Welsh taxpayers, and can you confirm that guidance will be provided by websites such as those of Welsh Government and the Welsh Revenue Authority?

And my other point is, Minister: if people living in south-east Wales work the other side of the border—we know one person in this Chamber lives in England and is here in this part of the world—so if there's a tax difference between the two regions, the two countries, where's the benefit for the tax? Can he or she claim and go for the place of residence rather than where they earn the money?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I can confirm that most people will be paying tax in their place of residence. However, there is an exception within the rules that means that all Assembly Members will be paying the Welsh rates of income tax regardless of where they live. I will confirm that there will be a comprehensive communications programme to ensure that people are well aware of Welsh rates of income tax and what it might mean for them, and obviously to be able to have any questions that they have answered.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

5. What discussions has the Minister had with the Treasury regarding the reallocation of any money from or to the EU upon the UK leaving the EU? OAQ53310

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Together with my officials, I am in regular contact with UK Treasury Ministers about a range of financial issues, including discussing the implications of the current position regarding the impact of Brexit on public spending and our budget.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Obviously, many of us have often mentioned the shared prosperity fund, because we don't know what it is and where it comes from, but that focuses on European structural funds and regional development fund money. The question I have is: are there other funds in Europe that are coming to institutions in this country? I'll give an example—it was raised with the cross-party group on steel last week—the research fund for coal and steel, which actually funds research into steel areas to ensure that we have a sustainable steel industry for the future, something critical to the Welsh economy. When they raised this question with the Treasury, they were basically told, 'It will go back into the pot', and it will not be ring-fenced for anything, so we may not get a ring-fenced research fund for steel and coal. When you meet the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, can you please raise the issue of any funds that come back from Europe, or that would have been allocated to Europe for particular topics in particular areas—remain in those so that we can benefit from that? Because the loss of something like £200 million to £400 million of accessible funding for research into steel is a huge loss to this country.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Absolutely, and the Member is well aware that we were promised that Wales wouldn’t be a single penny worse off as a result of Brexit, and it is absolutely imperative that we hold the UK Government to that commitment. David Rees is right: there's a huge amount of focus on the shared prosperity fund because of the importance of it to our communities, and the investment that it makes, but there are so many other programmes and funds that we do benefit from—so, the steel research programme, which has been referred to, is one of them, but also a number of smaller programmes. And we really do need to ensure that we continue to have access to a wide range of programmes, a wide range of networks, and the wide range of innovation funds that we have at the moment. I will certainly be pressing that case, as I know my colleague the Brexit Minister will be in the meetings that he attends very regularly, and the First Minister's very regular, now, meetings with the Prime Minister.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Finance Secretary, what use have you made of the £31 million that the Treasury have made available to the Welsh Government for Brexit preparedness? This money has arrived with your good self, but when I've questioned various Ministers at question time, there's a look of bemusement that this money is slushing around the Welsh Government. So, can you be specific what that £31 million has achieved, please?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for the question on the Brexit preparedness funding. Of course, we have introduced the £50 million fund for preparedness for Brexit and a number of statements have been made by portfolio Ministers as to how that's been spent. For example, the police partnership resilience scheme has recently been announced, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru Brexit support scheme, and preparations for the successor arrangements for those EU schemes, such as what will become the shared prosperity fund and so on.

There is another £10 million within the funding of that £31 million, which is yet to be allocated. I'm having discussions currently with the First Minister and with officials across Government with a view to coming forward with a further announcement as to how that money will be spent, but that discussion is very active at the moment.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I draw Members' attention to my register of interests, as chair of the programme monitoring committee dealing with European funding. Could I concur with the comments that have been made by David Rees, my neighbour in the Aberavon constituency and also Chair of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, on the red lines that the Government have drawn, both in terms of the whole funding, which we understand could, actually, be greater, based on the current EU calculations, than the current £680 million that should come to Wales, but also the levers in order to make the decisions on how we allocate and distribute that funding, perhaps in a different way, post Brexit as well? It seems all the more urgent after last night's vote, once again.

The Treasury typically tends to be—at the moment, certainly—fiscally conservative, but with a small 'c' conservative in their approach as well towards devolution. So, could I re-emphasise the point that David made, which is: what discussions is she and her officials having with Treasury officials, who, ultimately, will be the ones sitting around the Cabinet table, that not only help influence but will make the determination on whether the Welsh Government's red lines are respected, and that the money is passed back to Wales and also the levers of power to do as we want with it?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for raising the important point that it's not simply the quantum of money that is important, although that clearly is—it's actually how that money is made available to us to allocate to our Welsh Government priorities. We can't see a rolling back of 20 years of devolution through attempts by the UK Government to power grab in this area. Proposals such as a city deal kind of scenario for using that money are completely inappropriate.

There is no role here for the Secretary of State for Wales. This is very much funding that the Welsh Government needs to be allocating to meet our priorities in our communities, because we have the local knowledge, the understanding and the necessary networks to ensure that we make effective use of such funding here in Wales.

We're very, very clear that the baseline of the Welsh Government's block grant must be increased every year in line with the level of funding that we currently receive from the EU every year, without any clawback or top-slicing of that funding as well. I would just put on record again that we're extremely frustrated at the lack of detail from the UK Government with regard to the shared prosperity fund.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

6. When will the Minister issue the 2019 pay remit guidance for Welsh Government sponsored bodies? OAQ53309

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The 2019 pay remit guidance for our sponsored bodies is currently being finalised and will be issued by the end of February.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, obviously, this, then, has to be applied from 1 April, and I think it's really important that we see its publication as soon as possible. The end of February is cutting it very fine for them to put various measures in place so that they can implement these pay awards effectively. Is there any prospect of you accelerating the announcement, which is already fairly late, I think, in the cycle, so that they can carry this out effectively—this financial planning?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising this issue. The development of that guidance is very much an iterative process, so those bodies should be having discussions with officials in the process of developing the guidance. What I will say is that we can expect the guidance to look similar, in some ways, to the guidance last year, so building on the themes that we were keen to develop there. So, transparency, for example, was an important theme, as was encouraging sponsored bodies to pay the real living wage, as defined by the Living Wage Foundation, and ensuring that pay policy statements are published in line with our commitments towards the transparency, particularly, of senior pay.

We will ensure that the guidance supports fair pay and look favourably on sponsored bodies who pay the same rates as the Welsh Government. I can also confirm that there will be no intention to have a cap on public sector pay awards, and this will maintain the approach that we had last year.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

7. What consideration did the Minister give to healthcare in North Wales when allocating the 2019/20 budget? OAQ53279

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Consideration was given to the care needs of the whole of Wales, including north Wales. For 2019-20, funding of £1.46 billion has been allocated to Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board to improve performance, drive transformation and integration and help people live healthier, independent lives for longer.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. Last month the Countess of Chester Hospital, a fifth of whose patients come from Wales, reported concern that there'd been a 26 per cent increase in delayed transfers of care for its Welsh patients over the previous year. At the same time, there'd been a 24 per cent reduction for patients coming from the English side of the border, the west Cheshire patient catchment area that they service. Officers raised concerns about funding from the Welsh Government. Welsh Government denied claims they were not paying their fair share. The health Minister criticised the trust board chairman in the media. And the Welsh Government said health boards and local authorities were aware of the need to reduce delayed transfers of care and that the rate of improvement had been significantly evident in recent years. Well, clearly, these figures show that wasn't the case. So, clearly, there's a disagreement between the two sides, ongoing for many years, which is now having serious implications on the experience of patients over the funding arrangement. What is going on, Minister? Can you confirm that now or can you drill down and establish what's really going on and report back to this Assembly?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising this issue. I know, certainly on an all-Wales level, we're seeing some of the lowest levels of delayed transfers of care that we've had since records began, but I appreciate the circumstance you describe is unique in the sense that we're talking about cross-border provision. I'm not aware of the issue but I will certainly have discussions with the health Minister to explore the matter further.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the availability of national statistics in relation to problem gambling? OAQ53301

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Statistics already exist for problem gambling in Wales from the Gambling Commission. We will include questions on gambling as part of the national survey for Wales in 2020-1.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I very much welcome, at long last, the inclusion of gambling-related questions in the revised health survey. It's something we have raised year after year in this Chamber, so that is a step forward. But there is a lot more data that is actually required in terms of the impact within education, the impact on students, the impact on health and so on. It seems to me that this isn't something alone that we can rely on, but it is essential that we have a comprehensive, strategic collation of data to understand what is happening, because without that data it is impossible to actually develop strategies for dealing with problem gambling. I was wondering what strategies Welsh Government is considering with regard to that data at the moment.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising this issue and for doing it consistently. I know that you've campaigned for this data to be gathered over many years and I'm pleased that it is now going to happen. The chief medical officer I think demonstrated very clearly in his annual report how gambling is becoming a public health issue that we do need to address in Wales. And to do so, obviously, we need good data and good statistics to inform us. We have arranged to include questions on gambling in the health behaviour in school-aged children and school health research network survey during the last year. That was a survey of children aged 11 to 16. That data is currently being collated and analysed and clearly that will help inform our way forward as well. Other sources of information will also be important.

So, officials are considering the findings of a report that was published this week on gambling and public health by Public Health Wales and Bangor University to help inform local and national actions that we can take here to prevent problem gambling and the harms that that causes across Wales. And also, we'll be keen to listen to important partners as well. So, on Monday of this week, the chief medical officer co-chaired, alongside the Gambling Commission, a round-table discussion involving a range of key stakeholders. Obviously, data from the national survey, then, will be used to allow us to track the progress that we can make in terms of combating harm from problem gambling in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I welcome the work that's being done to improve the availability of data on problem gambling. It is an issue that we need to take more concerted action on to address. I wonder, in terms of some of the other action that you could take, whether you can tell us whether any consideration has been given to the use of business rates as an opportunity to reduce the impact, if you like, of the cumulative number of shops that appear to be popping up in some communities across Wales on local high streets. You will know that we've raised concerns in this Chamber in the past about the fact that some communities, particularly impoverished communities, in Wales, appear to be targeted by unscrupulous gambling companies with a proliferation of betting shops. Is there something that you can do to increase business rates in a punitive way in order to reduce the potential impact of those shops on those communities?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising this issue, and also for highlighting what the chief medical officer also highlighted in his report, that the harm caused by gambling is very much unequal in its distribution, and that people who are economically inactive, for example, and live in deprived areas are much more likely to suffer harm from gambling. I will certainly give further consideration to the suggestion that you've brought forward today.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Mandy Jones.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to bring more major events to Wales? OAQ53278

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Mandy.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We're committed to building on Wales’s recent success in hosting major international events. To that end, we're working closely with partners in Wales, the UK and internationally to identify and pursue new opportunities for attracting major sporting and cultural events to all parts of Wales.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer. In recent years, Cardiff has been a fantastic advert for Wales around the world by hosting major events. The events are a perfect opportunity to showcase everything Wales has to offer and boost tourism during the event. How is this Welsh Government planning on replicating the success of Cardiff in other parts of Wales, including in my own region?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thank you. I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear that in north Wales we have spent about £6 million on major events since about 2008. Of course, it's absolutely right that, very often, these international events will be focused on a capital city; sometimes that is a requirement by some of these organisations. But, if you look at what we're doing—for example, FOCUS Wales is an urban music festival in Wrexham, which is highly successful; Festival No. 6—you'll have heard about that—in Portmeirion, which is very successful. Unfortunately, that's not happening this year, but the Good Life Experience is another one in north Wales and, of course, the Llangollen international festival, the Tour of Britain, the biggest UK professional road cycling event, and, of course, the Wales Rally GB. So, we're already doing quite a lot in north Wales.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

Mandy Jones rightly observes that the Welsh capital has a very good record in attracting major events, particularly in the sporting field. One of the items of perhaps what may be described as constructive feedback that we sometimes get from organising bodies and visitors, though, is it would be better if people coming in by road weren't held up in jams, often for hours, through the Brynglas tunnels. Does the Minister therefore believe that this should be resolved by delivering on the promise in the Welsh manifesto to deliver a relief road for the M4?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thank you. Of course, I think our priority would be, where possible, to encourage people to come by public transport, and how much easier will that be now that we have a bit more control over the rail network? So, I do hope that there's that co-ordination between the Welsh Government and the major events team in making sure that, when Cardiff is hosting these events, that, actually, they will be using public transport wherever possible. But, of course, there is an issue that we also need to address in relation to those hold-ups, which are of no benefit to anybody.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

There is one major event in the pipeline for us on Ynys Môn—the opportunity to stage the Island Games in 2025. The executive committee of the Island Games internationally has been very supportive of our plans and I’m very grateful to them for that, and we will be submitting our final bid in a matter of weeks, so this is a crucial time. We’re extremely grateful for the support that’s been shown from the local authority and by the major events team within the Welsh Government under previous Ministers and we look forward to working in partnership with you over ensuing years, up until 2025.

Do you, as a new Minister in this portfolio, agree with me that this is a priceless opportunity for Anglesey, which will be an economic boost, which will be good for health, fitness and sports and leave a legacy for many years? Would you agree that it is an event that the Welsh Government should be very proud to support?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, and may I thank the Member for his investment in these games? I think that this is a huge opportunity for Ynys Môn, which has witnessed some issues over the past few weeks, and it's good to see a positive on the horizon as regards the Island Games. We are supportive of the games in principle. What I would like to see now is my team develop a valid business case with local government, and we’re extremely aware that this has to be ready by 8 March. So, the idea of pace and moving quickly is one that we are taking seriously and my officials will collaborate with the officers in local government to see how far we can take this, but I’m very hopeful that we can support this.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the future of the free swimming scheme for children and pensioners, please? OAQ53285

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I'm very grateful to my friend and former colleague Mohammad Asghar for that question. I thought I'd get that in. [Laughter.]

A review of the free swimming programme was completed in September 2018. And, as part of the recommendations of that review, future options for the programme are being developed and I expect them to be submitted to me very shortly. I will then determine the future direction of the programme.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Minister, for the reply. A recent report from Sport Wales found that the free swimming scheme for children and pensioners is no longer fit for purpose and that it needs a radical change. It went on to say that the scheme only cost half of the annual £3 million of funding provided by the Welsh Government, but that councils rely on this income due to cuts in their budgets. Minister, what discussions have you had with Sport Wales regarding the findings of this report, and will you confirm that you remain committed to supporting this scheme, which brings great health benefits to the young and elderly in our society?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I certainly remain fully committed. Indeed, I'm very keen to develop an overall programme of physical activity in Wales, and I do recognise that swimming is a fine physical activity to be encouraged widely, along with other physical activities. What I'm very keen to see developing is the option for more people in Wales to participate. It is not our intention, in any sense, to reduce the amount of funding on the promotion of physical activity, but to broaden the possibilities.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

As has been said, there are substantial benefits to swimming in terms of health—fighting obesity, reducing the number affected by type 2 diabetes and, something we don't talk about often enough, helping people build muscular strength, especially after they've left hospital. It is, along with other exercise, an excellent way of reducing current and future health problems, and aren't we better off trying to stop people being ill than dealing with them when they are?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I am grateful for the support from my present colleague, Mike Hedges, on this issue. I'm very keen to see the response to the activity of Sport Wales in assessing the first report that it has produced, and there has been a sub-group—the free swimming initiative steering group—on which local authorities, Swim Wales and Welsh Government are represented, which has been undertaking this work. I have had discussions with some members of that board already and I hope to consider their report to me as soon as I receive it. Welsh Government has contributed some £30 million towards the free swimming programme. As I said earlier in response to Mohammad Asghar, there are no plans to scrap free swimming for either the 16-and-under age group or the over-60s. However, there are issues surrounding the effectiveness of the scheme, which are set out very clearly in the reports I've already received, and as soon as I have some information I will make a further statement to Members.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I just wanted to ask the Deputy Minister if he would look at the way in which the free swimming is promoted in your review, because I recall last summer, in my constituency—Pentwyn leisure centre is a great facility, but it was very poorly advertised in the super-output areas of deprivation that are alongside the leisure centre, and they are the people who most need to be informed of when they can go swimming for free, because they simply don't have the money to go swimming unless it's free. So, I wondered if you'd look at that, because, if money is limited, it's crucial, it seems to me, that those people who can't afford to go swimming otherwise are the ones who are prioritised for this information.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, we are now increasingly working across Government and with local government in the promotion of all forms of physical activity, and I will certainly remind the local authorities through the relations with us directly within the group that's been studying this issue that there is no point in having a scheme that is not taken up because of a failure to promote. And, therefore, in the overall work that we are now undertaking in promoting physical activity across Government, we will pay particular attention to those areas of deprivation, which, along with all the other areas of our society throughout Wales, could benefit most from these schemes and from greater physical activity.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you, Llywydd. As Minister with responsibility for the Welsh language, can you confirm that English isn't introduced in Mudiad Meithrin's cylchoedd meithrin or in Welsh-medium schools until a child reaches seven years of age at the moment? And, if so, will you confirm, so that we can be entirely clear on this, that the proposal in the Welsh Government's White Paper for the new curriculum would be to make English a compulsory subject in such settings?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. You will be aware that, as regards Welsh-medium education, it has moved to the portfolio of the Minister responsible for education, but I think it's worth underscoring the fact that we understand that Welsh-medium immersion is essential as regards realising our vision for 1 million speakers. I have received an assurance from the Minister for Education that the current Welsh-medium immersion arrangements, which are provided by Mudiad Meithrin, for example, will continue unchanged as part of this new curriculum.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Well, the major question arising from what you've just said is: what's going to happen for the future? What about the next generations of children? Will they too continue to be immersed in the language? Your strategy—and it is your strategy as Minister for the Welsh language, the 1 million Welsh speakers strategy—does state unambiguously that Welsh-medium immersion education is the main method of ensuring that children can develop their Welsh language skills and for creating new Welsh speakers. Indeed, international evidence and Donaldson's emphasis itself confirm that. I've heard you mention a number of times that you do expect every department within the Welsh Government to give due regard to the Welsh language and the 1 million Welsh speakers strategy in every policy development and in all elements of their work. And, given that the Welsh Government proposal threatens that very effective system that exists at the moment in terms of immersion education, and is entirely contrary to one of the cornerstones of your language strategy, I would like to know how much communication there has been between you and the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams, in developing this proposal. And can you tell me too what is the evidence that the education department has used to promote this proposal?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’m not sure whether I made it clear enough in my first reply, I think I need to underscore that there is no change on the policy on immersion. There is awareness, and we’ve been doing this throughout the years. We have a history that people are emulating throughout the whole of the world as regards the efficacy of this specific policy and this will not change in future. So, I want you to be totally clear that that is the position, not just for now but for the future too.

I must also emphasise that it is worth seeing in the new curriculum that that target of attaining a million speakers is not just for people within Welsh-medium education but for whole generations, all of the schoolchildren going through the system, so, everybody will benefit. But, of course, as regards the immersion system, that will be different to those.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

I assume from that, therefore, that you will delete the clause in the White Paper and will do so as a matter of urgency. You’ve confirmed that immersion should be developed and continued for the future, so the natural step is to withdraw that clause to scrap the whole discussion around it, because it’s unnecessary; so, it doesn’t need to be in the White Paper.

But in addition to the need for developing immersive education, normalising the Welsh language in the education system as a whole is crucially important if we’re to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers, including increasing teaching through the medium of Welsh in English-medium schools. In 2013, Professor Sioned Davies’s report stated that urgent changes were required in the way in which the Welsh language was taught. Sioned Davies recommended that second language Welsh should be abolished by 2018 and that there should be a single learning continuum. A former Minister for the Welsh language, Alun Davies, told me in this very place that

'The second language Welsh qualification will be replaced...in 2021'.

Clearly, there’s been some slippage in the timetable, but I do welcome the announcement that there will be one Welsh language learning continuum from 2022 onwards, that there’s a sign of progress at last and it’s something to be welcomed, therefore.

What we need now is confirmation on the timetable and a commitment to publish an exemplar qualification in order to facilitate preparation in our schools. So, can you commit today to work with the education Minister on a clear timetable in order to publish a comprehensive qualification for the Welsh language as an example?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

May I just say that I’m pleased that you welcome that we have listened to Professor Sioned Davies? I’m also very aware that we need to improve the way in which we teach second language in our schools, and, for that reason, we convened a symposium last year where we brought together people who truly understood and had studied the best way of learning Welsh as a second language globally, and we’ve used that and are demonstrating that as a new way for people to learn Welsh in schools where Welsh is not the main language of the school.

These are issues for the Minister responsible for education, but as regards the qualification, it’s not the Government that’s responsible for the qualification, but, of course, a great deal of work is being done at present to prepare and look at how this continuum will work as regards ensuring that a qualification will be available that will be appropriate for both first language Welsh speakers and those who have gone through the education system without that education being in Welsh throughout the school.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Llywydd. Well, I’d like to start with the issue of teaching English in Welsh-medium settings for very young children too, because you may not be directly responsible for education but you are responsible for the target of a million Welsh speakers. And we heard yesterday that English is already being used in some of the early years settings and foundation phase settings, and I recognise that, but in my experience it is really a matter of considering the welfare of specific children and their communication needs at the time, and that is very different to 'teaching English'. I don’t doubt the intentions of the education Minister or your own intentions that they shouldn’t undermine the immersion system or progress, but I don’t think it’s sufficient to say that this is already a requirement within guidance for the foundation phase. It isn’t a sufficient response in my view.

We’re not talking about the same thing as introducing more Welsh language into the English-medium sector, I want to know what 'teaching English' means. What evidence can you provide to us that English is being taught in Welsh language settings at the moment and what disadvantages do those children face at the moment that are intended to be overcome by this proposal in the White Paper?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, you’re quite right to focus on the fact that education is central to our target of having a million speakers. Of course, by 2050, we hope that about 40 per cent of Welsh schoolchildren will attend designated Welsh language schools. In order to attain that target, we must ensure that we are committed to this immersion system and I hope that you heard what I clearly said to Siân Gwenllian.

May I—[Interruption.] We have made it perfectly clear that there is no—the Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin—I hope that they will understand that there is no need for them to change the way in which they are actually operating at present. This is a White Paper, of course, there are no clauses, and I am sure that the Mudiad Ysolion Meithrin are making it clear that they don't want to see this. It's clear to us that this will not happen. I hope that I have made it clear enough that there will not be any change in the current system when it comes to the nursery schools.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I’m sorry, Minister, it isn’t at all clear what 'teaching English' means in the new system. Because, as we heard from Dai Lloyd yesterday, we aren’t aware of nurseries that teach English at the moment. They use English for the sake of the well-being of children, but they don’t teach English, so I do think that we need some clarity around that issue for the future.

If I can remain on the issue of education, a few weeks ago, I raised with the education Minister the unintended consequence in Gwynedd of cuts to the education improvement grant. Part of the grant had been targeted and spent on intensive work with non-Welsh-speaking children having moved to the area, to help them acquire Welsh language skills that they need to access education within that county. Despite that, the Minister said that she was confident that the children who needed additional Welsh language skills could learn them successfully, and I do hope that she’s correct there. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child gives a right to children to education and these policies here due regard to the UNCRC. Would you be willing to work with the education Minister to satisfy yourselves that the children who need this intensive support still receive it, or ensure that there are other methods delivering the same outcomes for them? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We are very aware that there are circumstances when people come into a community, where they're unable to speak the language, particularly in some of our more Welsh areas, where they need that immersion when they are slightly older children. There are schools for latecomers located throughout Wales and, very often, some local authorities have to collaborate in order to ensure that that provision is available. And, of course, I will collaborate with the Minister responsible for education to ensure that that system continues. Of course, local government is under a great deal of financial pressure, and we are very aware that we wish this to carry on and we don’t wish to see any cuts in this field.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that, because we all want to see children who move into Wales still benefiting from similar services to those that I mentioned, and it has different impacts in different parts of Wales, of course, but in Gwynedd specifically, it is hugely important that children can acquire the skills that they need in accessing education there.

If I can just turn now to another issue, at a cabinet meeting of Bridgend County Borough Council in my region, at the beginning of this month, the Conservative councillor Tom Giffard asked a question in Welsh, and the response from the members was to ignore the question, and the chair of the council tried to move on to the next item on the agenda. Having insisted that his question be answered, the councillor was asked whether the question could be repeated in English, and the member pragmatically agreed to do so on this occasion, because there were no Welsh-speaking officers at all in the chamber. Under the test of reasonableness and proportionality, I don’t expect every councillor to be able to speak Welsh, or that there should be interpretation available in all councils in Wales. However, standards do apply to Bridgend council, and at the moment, they send all of their translation work to external companies. Wouldn’t it be a good idea for them to use some of those funds to employ somebody who is experienced in written translation and interpretation to meet their needs better and to help their progress in creating a bilingual environment for their workforce?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, and I do hope that councils across Wales will be supportive of a person’s ability to speak in Welsh, even if they have to repeat a question in English. But I do think that there is a way of improving the way in which we deliver translation services throughout the whole of Wales. We have a technological scheme in Welsh Government to look at how we are going to use technology to improve the provision of translation. We’re creating a translation memory—this is one of the things that we are looking at in great detail at the moment. If everybody who uses the Welsh language inputs into the system, the data will be much improved, and the provision will then be improved. So, I do think there are means of looking at how we can get local authorities in particular to collaborate, which would save a great deal of money for them. And also perhaps they could use our translation memory in Welsh Government and it could all be put in one pot and we will all benefit from the one system. That is part of the technological plan that we are aiming for at present.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to welcome the Minister to her new role, and also welcome back the Deputy Minister to his. One of the policy areas of your department is the staging of major events. I was interested to hear the answers that you gave in response to question 1 from Mandy Jones, and the supplementaries. Of course, Mandy was perfectly correct in her point that, although it's very good to have events coming to Cardiff, there's also a need to spread events across Wales in general and also to include north Wales, so I was also interested to hear your response to Rhun's enquiries about the Island Games that are projected for Ynys Môn. Clearly, there are going to be a lot of Members coming to you, pitching for these kinds of events.

One major event that was discussed previously in this Assembly term was a future Commonwealth Games bid coming from Wales, which was something that Ken Skates was very keen on when he had the portfolio for major events. I appreciate what you said earlier about certain events being city based, and indeed, the Commonwealth Games is one such event. But I think Ken Skates did have the idea that certain parts of the bid could be put to different parts of Wales—it wouldn't necessarily be totally focused on one city. Of course, I'm not stating which city should be at the heart of such a bid. But have you looked at a future Commonwealth Games bid and is that something that has crossed your desk thus far?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

As it happens, I did have a briefing on the situation in relation to major events this morning. This was not one of the issues that arose in that context. I think what's important for me is that we have an overview of not just what's going on where and when, but that we can map it out on a year-by-year basis so that we have an understanding that, if we support one particular major project one year, it may be that we don't have so much for the next year, but if there's a really big project that we see coming down the track we may want to hold back. So, getting an overview, for me, is quite important. The Commonwealth Games is not one of those major events that is on our agenda at the moment. We of course had the very successful Volvo Ocean Race last year, which, I think, really put the Year of the Sea on the map. The fact that we had, last year, 22 cultural and sporting events across the whole of Wales, attracting over 0.25 million visitors to Wales, bringing in about £72 million-worth of money—. These are all really successful stories, I think. But, of course, when you host such a huge event as the Commonwealth Games, you also have to look at the cost implications for us as a Government.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes. I think that's sensible because you can sometimes get claims about these events leading to massive infrastructure and massive sporting participation later on. We had these hyperbolic claims about the London Olympics in 2012, and they don't always actually lead to those outcomes. So, certainly, we would be wise to look at these things carefully.

To look at another possible event—if you can comment on the specifics of this one—we did have the very successful Champions League football final coming to Cardiff. That's one that, of course, is focused on—a question that is focusing on Cardiff. That was in 2017. Now, that was a good event and was an example of good lobbying, but we did notably miss out on having any part in co-hosting the future European football championships in 2020. There is a possibility that Wales could co-host a future European championships as, increasingly, UEFA are minded to have more than one nation actually hosting an event. By 'nation', they define that as an area that has their own football association. So, theoretically, Wales could co-host a future European championships with the other home nations. Is that something that you would be minded to have a look at?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think the fact that 160 million people tuned into the Champions League final really meant that Cardiff in particular was put on the map in a way that we, perhaps, haven't seen before. So, football is an international language unlike any other, and I think the tragic events that we've seen last week for Cardiff City is also an example where the kind of focus that we've seen on Cardiff that we didn't particularly want means that this international language is something that everybody's focused on.

There will be, I think, opportunities for us to co-operate with other parts of the United Kingdom to look at future football events and, of course, the bigger, the better as far as we're concerned. So, we will look at co-hosting some events of that scale and nature in the future.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks for clarifying that point, and I look forward to future announcements. Now, there's been some talk in recent years of a major conference centre being built in Cardiff. Whether there's enough demand for this when there is already one being built in Newport, I don't know. There may be a danger of oversupply and, of course, we have to be wary of white elephants sometimes being constructed. On the other hand, there may be a belief within the events management sector that there's enough demand for both conference centres. I don't know if you have any view on that, Minister.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I did have a very constructive meeting with the international convention centre authorities last week, with the Celtic Manor, and I think there's great excitement about what that really could do for Wales and for bringing people to Wales. One of the issues we discussed there, with other leaders of local authorities, was the need to perhaps look at developing a convention bureau for the whole of the Cardiff capital region. So, the very clear impression that they gave us was that the international convention centre itself and the Celtic Manor would not be big enough in itself to host the numbers of people that they're expecting to come. So, there are opportunities for Cardiff and Newport in terms of hosting, hotel rooms, and there's a real excitement, I think, building around that. And I must make it clear that I hope that that international convention centre will be a part of the international strategy that I will be developing in the next few months.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

3. What is the Welsh Government doing to increase tourism in Islwyn? OAQ53299

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you, Rhianon. Our tourism strategy sets out our priorities to support the tourism industry across Wales, including the south-east region. This includes marketing campaigns in the UK and overseas, and capital development funding for new and existing tourism businesses, along with revenue funding for regional projects.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Thank you for that answer. Islwyn contains some of Wales's most stunning natural landscapes, such as the internationally famed Cwmcarn Forest Drive and also the Navigation colliery, and it was announced recently the gateway status of the drive within the Valleys initiative. But, any qualitative international visitor experiences are immeasurably enhanced by attention to detail, and, for many tourists to Wales, the quality of facilities such as basic footpaths, toilets, signage and car parking are integral to that experience. So, it was great news for Wales last week when the Welsh Government announced £2.2 million being offered to 23 projects that will improve that experience for visitors across Wales, especially in these times of austerity. So, Deputy Minister, how can the Welsh Government work with Caerphilly County Borough Council and tourism and visitor organistions across Islwyn to ensure that they are aware of the Valleys experience and can benefit from potential future funding opportunities from the tourism amenity investment support scheme—never more important for our economy at this time and for our place in the world during this looming period of potential instability for Wales?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much for drawing attention to the essential importance of basic visitor infrastructure. I can confirm—and I don't need to tell you because you know—that both the environment around Cwmcarn and in particular, the Cwmcarn adventure hub, which I visited also recently, is an ideal location for all forms of outdoor activities, and Caerphilly, as a local authority, is very committed to the development of the tourism offer. The European Union investment here, of course, through the Tourism Attractor Destination programme, will see over £1.8 million invested in that destination. I'm very keen, particularly because of my own background and the type of area I represent, in the co-location of tourism projects, especially adventure tourism, with our historic landscapes, including those that have hosted our valuable but often damaging industrial heritage in the past.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, I heard your spiel—very nice—regarding Cwmcarn forest, which, actually, is in my region. Cwmcarn forest offers visitors a wide range of activities, including walking, fishing, mountain biking and, more than everything else, going with friends and family for barbecues there. It's a wonderful place to go. However, this popular and scenic Cwmcarn Forest Drive still remains closed, since 2014, to cars, which is totally unacceptable. It is only for Natural Resources Wales to cut down thousands of diseased trees. So, what discussions have you undertaken on the effect of this closure on visitor numbers to Cwmcarn forest? And, what discussions have you had with ministerial colleagues to ensure the speedy reopening of this road so that visitors can come and enjoy the breathtaking scenery? The Minister mentioned that the Welsh convention centre is on its way, and, especially after the abolition of the Severn Bridge tolls, we're expecting, in summer, which is only a few months away, an influx of visitors, and this scenic place should be open, not for us, but for the overseas visitors. This is one of the most beautiful places in south-east Wales.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I will undertake to speak with Natural Resources Wales about the management of the Cwmcarn forest. But I have to emphasise that there are very exciting projects located near the Cwmcarn adventure hub, which is part of a £4.6 million Monmouthshire and Brecon canal adventure triangle, which is being promoted by Caerphilly County Borough Council, as well as Torfaen County Borough Council, and there will be a substantial benefit for this investment. This could include an enhancement at Cwmcarn forest for glamping accommodation, infrastructure works to the Crumlin arms—arm; I was thinking of a pub, obviously—to the Crumlin arm of the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal, and also improvements to trails to the wonderful Twmbarlwm in west Torfaen. All these are under discussion. I'm quite frankly more interested in people getting out of their cars and using our facilities. Of course, people can come in cars, but I would equally like to see people coming along our canal—

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Going for a barbecue.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I understand that the Member wishes to offer to organise barbecues in the Cwmcarn forest, and I am certain this would be very attractive to visitors.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

4. Will the Minister set out the Welsh Government's initial priorities for Wales's international relations? OAQ53312

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

International priorities will be shaped through a new international strategy, and we're at the start of that process, but I've been clear that the focus is to create a more prosperous and sustainable Wales through increased export and investment, whilst increasing Wales’s influence and international recognition.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Yes, Minister, I think it's very important to continue to open Wales to the world and the world to Wales, which I think has been an important benefit of devolution. One aspect of that has been the programme for Africa, and I think the evaluation of that shows that it is punching well above its weight. We have, I think, 20 per cent of the hospital-to-hospital links, UK to Africa, in Wales. We were the first Fairtrade Nation in 2008. Size of Wales exceeded the target of planting a million trees in Uganda, and I think there's a new target now of 10 million. In 2015, some 80,000 people in Wales benefited from the work under the programme, and some 0.25 million people in sub-Saharan Africa, and we have over 150 community-to-community links, which I think is absolutely fantastic. So, given that success and the importance of this work, I wonder if you would consider increasing the budget, because I think it's been at something just in excess of £900,000 for several years now. In contrast, in Scotland, they've gone from something like £3 million to £15 million over a similar period of time. So, given the great importance and the value of this work, Minister, I wonder if you will look carefully at whether we might be able to increase the budget.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think we're really proud of our Wales for Africa programme, and it's an example of where a small amount of money has really gone a very long way, and has transformed the lives of people in a very fundamental way in some of the poorest parts of the world. So, this is very much part of what we'll be building into our international strategy. And you're absolutely right—in Uganda, the ten-millionth tree will be planted this summer, so that's something I think we should all be very proud of.

We've recently announced 15 small grants with a budget of £250,000, so there's a whole host of new organisations who will be receiving money, but we will be looking at the budgeting in the context of what the international strategy looks like. So, the first step will be prioritising, and then making the finance fit to those priority lists. But, absolutely, Africa is very much on our agenda.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, to mark its hosting of the Rugby World Cup, the Japanese Government has launched the Japan-UK season of culture. There's an active committee in Wales promoting events here. I do hope it will get extensive participation from the Welsh Government because we should celebrate our links with Japan. They've done so much economically, and there are many cultural linkages as well, and this is the sort of thing that we do need to project Wales abroad more and build on those rich traditions that have already been substantially developed.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. I think we've got a very long and proud tradition in terms of our relationships with Japan. Of course, we had a lot of companies move in in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and they really transformed parts of our communities. It's very sad to see now companies like Sony have said that they will be moving their headquarters out of the United Kingdom as a direct result of Brexit. So, that is something that, of course, we lament, but it’s happening already. The same thing, I think, is true for Panasonic. Wales Arts International is, I think, an organisation that has been looking at what we can do in relation to the Rugby World Cup. There are great opportunities. I've been speaking to somebody involved in promoting paintings and selling artwork abroad, and she's made a very comprehensive link with a museum out in Japan. So, already, things are building up towards that world cup, and I know that the Minister with responsibility for agriculture and rural affairs has expressed an interest in visiting Japan, because they've recently announced that they will be lifting their suspension of exports of Welsh lamb to Japan. So, there's a real opportunity for us to boost and to jump off this Rugby World Cup to find new markets at a time of real difficulty, in particular if we have some kind of 'no deal' Brexit, where it would be very difficult to export into our traditional markets.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I do welcome the fact that this role exists, particularly as it’s important that Wales can express views on things that happen at the international level. In that context, I wonder whether you could explain to us what kind of debates you can bring before this Chamber so that we can have debates on what is happening on the international stage. For example, I’ve been working with the Kurdish community here in south Wales, who have been canvassing and campaigning against the fact that many politicians and campaigners are imprisoned in Turkey and are on hunger strike, indeed, because of the fact that the Turkish Government is treating them unfairly. If we as a Senedd have a view and can debate issues of international importance, then that sends a clear message to the world just how important those issues are at a global level, but also for the Kurdish community, which is a large community here in south Wales. So, can I ask you: what is your vision for having discussions on non-devolved issues, but things that are hugely important to the people of Wales and people on a global level more generally?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. I do welcome the fact that we have the opportunity now to look at what’s happening in the wider world. I am aware, of course, that this is a reserved matter to a great extent to the Government, and of course we have a great interest, particularly if there are links between the people of Wales and the other areas of the world. As regards the matter of the Kurds, may I say that I met the Turkish ambassador on Monday and raised this matter of the imam from Newport who has been on hunger strike because he was concerned about the events in Turkey? We must of course remember that this is the tenth largest country in terms of receiving our exports, but we must ensure that the trade fits in with human rights.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

5. What is the Welsh Government's vision for fostering relations with stateless nations? OAQ53316

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Whilst diplomatic relations are conducted officially by the UK Government, the Welsh Government will not refrain from developing relations with regions or nations or people where that will be of benefit to Wales.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I understand that the Welsh Government intends to extend its network of embassies, as it were, within the Spanish state. Can I ask you whether it’s an intention to look specifically at Catalonia, and the Basque Country, of course, where there is a close relationship between Wales and those nations already? I raised these issues specifically because in a recent visit by a delegation from the Catalan Government to Brussels, Meritxell Serret, who works for the Catalan Government, had said that they—the Catalan Government—were interested in opening an embassy here in Wales, particularly if we were to do likewise there.

May I ask also—? Because Meritxell herself is a refugee who is unable to return to Catalonia at the moment—and the Llywydd herself visited the former Speaker of the Catalonian Parliament, Carme Forcadell, who is in prison there—would it be possible for the Minister on behalf of the Welsh Government to raise this issue with the Spanish ambassador? I know that that is a reserved issue, and so on, but this is a very unusual situation in the history of recent European democracy, and it of course is in the tradition of Wales, in thinking of what happened during the Spanish civil war, that we express our full co-operation with the people of Catalonia at the moment.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. I think there are about 20 offices across the world belonging to Welsh Government. What I want to do at the moment is to review their influence and their efficiency and what impact they have. One of our committees has asked us to ensure that we get value for money out of them, so before expanding the network I wish to ensure that what we already have is right and proper. But I do think it's right that we need to develop the natural relationship that we have with regions such as Catalonia and the Basque Country.

I don't think that we have necessarily always got to open offices. If we're going to focus on economic development, for example, it might be better to send people from here who have expertise in a particular specific field, rather than having generalists present there, and this is what I want to consider when I look at the future strategy. But we're not just going to focus on economic issues. There are, of course, cultural issues. And, where we already have a relationship, it makes sense for us not to break that relationship. But I understand with foreign affairs what makes things happen better than anything else is personal relationships, and we must make sure that we build on those. I think that we are all duty bound to do what we can to raise the Welsh flag while we travel abroad, too.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Minister, this is the first time I've questioned you in your new role, so congratulations on your appointment. I think it's great that there is this renewed focus and emphasis on fostering international relations between the Assembly and other, sometimes troubled, parts of the world.

I see from my diary that on Thursday you're hosting an event in the Senedd setting out your international strategy with key stakeholders—Wales on the world stage. Love Zimbabwe will be represented at that event by two of my constituents, Dave and Martha Holman. I hope you get a chance to catch up with them. The situation in Zimbabwe is truly tragic. The joy and hope of just a matter of months ago has now been replaced with more bloodshed and sadness and sorrow. Can I ask that, as part of your renewed international strategy, there is a focus on holding out a helping hand to the people of Zimbabwe, whether they be in Zimbabwe or whether, like my constituents, they be living here in Wales? The people from Zimbabwe that I know really do feel great affection for Wales and are very grateful for the warmth and affection they've had from the Welsh people, so I think it would be excellent if you could look into fostering a relationship with that particularly troubled part of the world.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. I'm very much looking forward to hosting that event on Thursday of this week, where we're launching that consultation on what the future strategy for internationalism in Wales should look like. Of course, as part of the developments in the Wales for Africa programme, Zimbabwe will feature, I'm sure, already in that. One of the things I'm keen to do is make sure that we develop a really comprehensive database of what is going on already in Wales, so that if people from Wales go to Zimbabwe, they will be able to contact people and make sure that we build those networks. So, linking that diaspora in Wales is something that also needs a lot of focus, but soft power is something that we mustn't lose sight of. Those personal relationships are something that I think we want to foster and encourage. But Zimbabwe—I look forward to meeting those representatives on Thursday.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on progress towards its target of one million Welsh speakers by 2050? OAQ53284

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cymraeg 2050 is an ambitious long-term strategy. Our initial efforts have concentrated on laying firm foundations for the future, building from the ground up to secure enough learners through the education system. We’re on track to reach our 2021 targets as regards the early years sector, and, of course, the Welsh in education strategic plans have helped us to do that.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Last year, the North Wales Economic Ambition Board launched a document called 'The Welsh Language in North Wales'. It was a document that was aimed at promoting and increasing bilingualism across the region. The findings in that report identified the fact that employers in both the public and private sector are wanting to have more employees who have the ability to speak both English and Welsh. So, there's a growing appetite, but, unfortunately, there are not sufficient opportunities for people to learn the language, particularly adults. I wonder what work you might be able to do with the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, and others in the North Wales region, to promote opportunities for adults to learn the Welsh language where they don't have any Welsh language skills, so that we can see the sort of ambition in this document fulfilled in the future.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. I think we've really increased quite significantly our relationships with businesses and our promotion of the Welsh language. So, we're very proud that the National Centre for Learning Welsh has put considerable effort into teaching Welsh in the workplace, and that's been taken up by literally thousands of people. So, I would encourage them to make sure that they are looking into the opportunities there. The other thing, of course, is that the Welsh Language Commissioner can provide lanyards and badges and provide services through the medium of Welsh, to make sure that people are aware of who exactly speaks Welsh so that you do get an opportunity to practise the language.

Of course, we've got Cymraeg Byd Busnes. What we've done is to provide about 11 different officials who can go into companies and help them to increase their use of Welsh, making sure that they, perhaps, can translate little bits of information. We're also very keen to see people coming out from schools and colleges—colleges in particular. We've moved now from simply concentrating on higher education into further education, and now there's an action plan that is delivering a new model. Of course, the more people we can get to keep hold of their Welsh and use it in the workplace, the better.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Assembly Commission. The first question is to be answered by Commissioner David Rowlands and is to be asked by Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

1. What assessment has the Commission made of the provision of safe cycle storage on the Assembly estate? OAQ53297

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

The Assembly has a secure undercover facility for the storage of bicycles. We currently provide storage for 69 bikes, with further capacity planned for this year. In addition, there are publicly accessible racks outside Tŷ Hywel for use by visitors. We also provide showers, lockers and tumble-dryer facilities for cyclists to use.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank you very much for that response, David. This morning, as usual, I got off the train at Cardiff station, got onto my bike, cycled up to Cathays Park for a meeting and cycled back through the park, through the frost, all the way here, my scarf flying behind me, on my sit-up-and-beg bike—all the way here. It was great, when I arrived, to find that all of the bikes were there—this time of year, with all of the frost and everything else, it is packed out down there in storage, which is a great testament to the success of what we're trying to do to promote cycling and active travel. But it is packed to the gunnels. So, could you give me some more details on those proposals you mentioned to actually expand the capacity, and just make clear that, in expanding capacity, it is the indoor capacity of safe storage that we want, for security, but also so that our saddles, our bikes and our gear aren't soaking wet when we come out in the evening?

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

We are, of course, keen to expand the use of bicycle transport for work. In keeping with this, we are planning, as I said, to introduce extra car parking spaces this year—[Interruption.] I'm sorry—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Carry on, David.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Of course, it will require a much more expansive approach to cycle provision. In order to do that, we will be, obviously, looking at the possibility of taking out car parking spaces at some time in the future. Obviously, we're hoping that that won't impact on those people using cars because, hopefully, they will be using bikes and therefore, obviously, the necessity for those car parking spaces will be reduced.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Question 2, again to be answered by Commissioner David Rowlands—Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

2. Thank you very much. How does the level of food waste generated on the Assembly's estate in the last quarter compare with the same period in the previous year? OAQ53293

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Yes. The level of food waste generated on the Assembly estate increased slightly from 4.23 tonnes at the end of 2017 to 4.59 tonnes at the end of 2018. Obviously, in operating a catering service, food waste will never be totally eliminated, however our contractor Charlton House is very proactive and has introduced a range of initiatives, including menu planning around weekly demand, batch cooking and condensing food counters towards the end of service times. In addition, we should point out that all our food waste goes for composting and waste cooking oil is converted to biodiesel.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you for that interesting answer. I would agree with you that Charlton House tries very hard and it isn't just down to the caterer to reduce the food waste. But as Lesley Griffiths, some 18 months ago, suggested that we should be halving food waste by 2025, it's obviously really important that we in the Assembly are showing the way and not just suggesting that other people do that. Clearly, in a country where many, many people do not have enough food to feed themselves, food waste is an offence, really. But I appreciate that when you're in the hospitality industry, it can be very difficult to control food waste because people order food that people don't turn up to eat. However, I do think that we need to all focus on this and that when we're organising or hosting events we ensure that whoever's paying for that food is thinking very clearly about exactly what they're going to need and the numbers they're going to need it for, but also if we could institute some form of disbursement of surplus food to those who are in need of food, and there are many of them, unfortunately, in our capital city. So, it'd be great if we could have some further conversations on how we might be able to do that in order to reduce, rather than increase, the amount of food waste we're generating.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Well, the Assembly Member for Cardiff North is absolutely right in saying that the source of food waste with hospitality menus—although it's calculated on a per head basis, consumption of the food provided is strictly down to those attending, of course. So, there is very little Charlton House can do to reuse any of the leftover food items. Stricter hygiene rules mean most items cannot be recycled. Obviously, where items such as packeted biscuits are in place, they will use those and recycle them. But I think you're absolutely right, it's a tragedy to see good food wasted when there are people who desperately need that food.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Question 3 to the Commission is to be answered by the Llywydd. Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

3. Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd. Will the Commission provide an update on the Welsh Youth Parliament following the first regional meetings? OAQ53315

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament met in their regions for the first time on 19 and 26 January. It provided an opportunity for them to get to know each other, consider priorities and meet with some Assembly Members and staff members for the first time. They also took part in training and discussed the residential weekend, due to take place here on the weekend of 22 to 24 February.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm sure that all Members here will be really pleased to hear of what is incredibly positive progress. I was fortunate to meet the Youth Parliament Members from Mid and West Wales in Carmarthen and was very impressed by some very committed and engaging young people. I was also very struck by the support arrangements that were there in place to support those young people who will find it more difficult to participate. Among the young people I met were representatives of young carers and of the Gypsy/Traveller community, and it felt to me as if those arrangements were working very well. Will the Commission keep those arrangements under review to ensure that those young people who may not find it as easy to participate continue to get the support through the process?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

May I thank the Member for that question and, along with a number of other Members from this Siambr, who have taken time to meet the Youth Parliament Members in the various regional meetings. I’ve seen photos of many of you in various meetings over these past two weekends. May I also thank you for praising what we’re trying to do to ensure that each one of the 60 Members, who are equal in their role as Members of the Youth Parliament, who come from diverse backgrounds with different challenges—it’s important that we as the Assembly Commission and as the Assembly give each one of them the support they need to be able to undertake their new roles? There is a great deal of excitement among them to participate in the Youth Parliament and we must ensure that they have the appropriate support to do so, and to keep that under review as the Youth Parliament evolves during its first two years and as these young people participate in their democracy on behalf of their fellow young people in Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

4. How will the Assembly Commission fund any additional costs associated with the potential name change of the National Assembly for Wales? OAQ53318

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The regulatory impact assessment that will accompany the Bill to be introduced in the near future will assess its potential costs, both for the Assembly itself and other persons and organisations affected. Costs to the Assembly Commission identified in the regulatory impact assessment will be absorbed within existing budgets and capacity.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Llywydd. As you'll be aware, during the Commission consultation there was a majority agreement that the Assembly should change its name. However, the consultation also disclosed the fact that there is concern about the cost of the changes, and you yourself, Llywydd, addressed us on 13 June 2017 by advising that, and I quote,

'The Commission…will plan the change so as to minimise the cost. We intend, in time, to change just the Assembly’s name, avoiding the need for any wholescale rebrand or a change to the logo.'

Now, I know there's some ambiguity at the moment as to what name or names we're going to be known as, so my question is: how much has already been spent on the transformation process to date, and could you clarify the ambiguity that remains about the projections of costings, and how will this impact on us as Assembly Members and, indeed, the rebranding of our own offices?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

As you are aware, I'm about to introduce the Welsh Parliament and Elections (Wales) Bill as the Member in charge of that Bill. That will be introduced within the next few weeks. That will be accompanied by a regulatory impact assessment and explanatory memorandum, which will go into quite substantial detail on many of the issues you've addressed in your question. I can confirm, as I've said previously, that we are not undertaking a wholesale rebranding of this Assembly; we are undertaking to implement in legislation a name change to reflect our role as a national Parliament, in accordance with the mandate given by an Assembly decision in July of 2016, and that will be done at the most minimal of cost, outlined, as I've said, in the regulatory impact assessment that will be published when the Bill is introduced.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you, Llywydd.

4. Topical Questions

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 4 is topical questions and I have two this week, and the first one is from Bethan Sayed.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. Will the Minister respond to the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales review into Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Health board’s handling of sex assault claims from patients with learning difficulties against a care worker? 272

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I commissioned an independent review of the health board's handling of concerns raised about Kris Wade. Healthcare Inspectorate Wales published that report yesterday. I now expect the health board to take urgent action to address the findings and recommendations. We will implement measures in response as quickly as possible across Wales.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that reply. This report is, of course, the third one if we include the desktop review into safeguarding at the health board, and the report shows there is still a lack of clarity on how some recommendations, which stretch back before this particular scandal, have or will be put in place. When we discuss this report, I think we should all remember what it's about—sexual assault against very vulnerable women in a care setting where they thought that they were safe. The women did not feel that they were believed, and do you agree, Minister, that this is totally unacceptable? If the #MeToo movement is to have impact, public authorities must listen to all women, be they vulnerable or not, but, more importantly, believe them too.

There are parts of the report that are deeply problematic. There is criticism of governance at the health board. It says that board members were aware of allegations individually, but nothing formal was done until far too late. Disconnect between the board and operational services has been apparent since the 2014 'Trusted to Care' report. What are you going to do differently, Minister, now in relation to governance, so we don't have to have another report in a few years' time and the same press-ready, recycled responses from you? Will you look to explore the possibility of special measures to oversee the implementation of recommendations, particularly in this report? And will you personally instigate a review of governance in ABMU and an urgent change of leadership at the board level?

Finally, I'd like to ask, as I did yesterday, to seek assurances of the independence of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. And I say this again because I think it's vitally important. The press were given a briefing at 9 o'clock in the morning and I was only afforded the same report at 6 o'clock that evening, under the alleged proposition that they had to keep that private for families. If it was so private, why were the press afforded that briefing before elected politicians in this place? I only got the report because I proactively asked—no other AM got that report—and an MP that has taken an interest in this area also. Just for the sake of clarity, we need assurances that HIW is entirely independent, because if they are, why did they treat the press differently to elected politicians in this place?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the series of questions. I'll start with your final series of questions about HIW and their independence. Yes, they are operating independently. They made choices about who to see and how to conduct the investigation. I think they saw about 40 different people, current and past staff members, as well as the families of the three women, together with the family of Christine James, who, as we know, was murdered by Kris Wade.

The report was made available to the women who had complained, their families or their representatives, a week before publication of the report. As well, HIW met with the women a week before the report. The report was then made available to them on 28 January. And, on the twenty-eighth, HIW held a technical briefing for the press and they also provided you with a copy of the report. Publication of the report is a matter for HIW, and not a matter where there was any kind of interference from the Welsh Government. There is no question that the conclusions of the inquiry and the process to reach those conclusions was anything other than independent.

I want to return to the point that we are talking about—three vulnerable women who were let down. And I am deeply sorry that those three women were let down not just by an individual within the health service, but actually how the whole service then reacted to the complaint, and in particular the reaction after the first complaint, where it's acknowledged that it was not promptly recognised as a safeguarding issue and dealt with as such. The second and third were. As we know, the police and the Crown Prosecution Service decided not to proceed with a prosecution. Now, that is outside the remit of both the health board and indeed the Welsh Government. But I do agree, you start by believing the complainant—that has to be your starting point. Otherwise, we know that we will not encourage people to raise complaints as they should do, and then to handle sensitively the complaints when they're investigated.

On to the, I think, two further points that you raised—in terms of an action plan and what will now happen, within a matter of weeks, the health board will need to submit an action plan to Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. They won't submit that plan to the Government, it will go Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, and they will determine whether that action plan is adequate. And no doubt, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales will return to see what progress, including the pace and consistency of progress, that the health board makes against dealing with those recommendations. There are three recommendations for the Government that I've already committed to taking forward.

In terms of your call for special measures and a change in leadership at the health board, of course, the chief executive is new and was not in place at the time of the desktop review, nor, indeed, when the incidents took place, and, indeed, in terms of the board themselves, there is no suggestion from Healthcare Inspectorate Wales that there should be changes at board level. And I do remind the Member and others who are here or watching that placing a health board or a trust in special measures takes place following advice given by both the chief executive of NHS Wales, the Wales Audit Office, and, indeed, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. Should that have been a matter that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales thought was appropriate, then they would have said so and there would have been the opportunity to convene an extraordinary meeting under the escalation status.

So, these are matters where I'm advised by people who are properly independent, and that is a safeguard for people in Wales that we're not either placing within special measures or out of special measures healthcare organisations simply to suit a politician within Government or outside, and that is absolutely the right thing to do. But I'm determined that the health service will deal with the recommendations in this independent review and will do so seriously and promptly.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

This is a situation of utmost gravity and the fundamental issue is: why are issues relating to the care of people with learning disability persistently ignored? That's the fundamental issue here, because the AMBU board knew of both the allegations against Kris Wade and the problems in the learning disability directorate itself, but failed to act. The Crown Prosecution Service failed to take the women's allegations seriously, despite police going back to ask them to reconsider. The police wanted to pursue the situation; the CPS failed to take any action. The view from the service is that the Welsh Government always kicked the attempts to develop effective liaison between learning disability services and the criminal justice system into the long grass. I'm not going to have the political debate about what's devolved and what's not devolved now, but, surely, with matters of such potential gravity, you need to be able to work together as opposed to just ignoring the situation, because, over the years, there are myriad reports on the additional morbidity and mortality of people with learning disability in general hospitals. They're not being listened to either there. And I know about the multi-agency learning disability advisory group, but that is exactly what it says on the tin—it's an advisory group only. There's no change in outcomes for people with learning disability. This case highlights a situation of utmost gravity. So, also, can I ask: why didn't senior health board executives think or feel that the allegations in the Kris Wade case were serious? Why did Welsh Government agree to an internal desktop review back in October 2017? If there was no case to answer, why have a review? If it was serious, have a proper review, not just an internal desktop review. And, finally, is Welsh Government proud of the treatment of the medical whistleblower in this case?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I agree with a fair amount of what Dai Lloyd has said about this being a matter of real seriousness and gravity. It is a serious issue. That is why I ordered the inquiry, with the report that we've published. And, if you look at the report, there's no hiding place in the report. It sets out a range of areas where there is a need for real improvement. It sets out a range of failings and disappointments about past conduct. And that is important to have an honest picture to improve upon. But, actually, in terms of learning disability, I recognise what Dai Lloyd says about differential mortality. That is not a cause for celebration, it is a cause for not just for concern, but for action. That is why the Government has, of its own volition, undertaken a review across Government in terms of learning disability services, which I, Rebecca Evans in a previous role, but also Huw Irranca-Davies in a previous role as well, have been actually part of undertaking and reviewing and taking forward, because we do recognise we need to do better. We recognise there are real challenges and a need for improvement. There's no lack of understanding or commitment from the Government to do better. If you want to see examples, there's real leadership from the chief nursing officer as well on this issue. She has made it a real priority within the last few years, because of the mounting evidence about differential outcomes and the failure to make appropriate progress.

For example, earlier this term, I met the family of Paul Ridd to look at what had happened with his care, where, again, he was let down, and the family then came back, after a period of time—we quite understand that they were angry and did not want to come back. They then decided they wanted to do something to make sure others did not go through the same experience. And that has actually been a really positive experience for this health board as well. The learning they have taken on board for matters on the ward—and, indeed, Melanie Thomas, one of the nurses they have dealt with, the learning disability co-ordinator, was actually recognised for her work on learning disability within the recent new year's honours list.

So, there is good practice within Wales. As ever, the challenge is how consistent is that and that the learning isn't simply kept in one part of our service. So, I do recognise that there have been failings. I want to be clear that the Welsh Government does not authorise a desktop review as the only response that should take place. The health board undertook a desktop review, and, following that, I was not satisfied that was the appropriate course of action, that the learning had actually been deep enough or, indeed, that they'd learnt all the lessons and asked all the right people. So, I ordered Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to undertake a review.

In terms of the treatment of the whistleblower, well, the challenge here is that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales went through that. I would always want whistleblowers to be believed, and I would want—. Again, you start off by believing the whistleblower and taking what they say seriously if you want the right culture to take place. I certainly do believe there's more learning to take place and it's been raised directly with me by the British Medical Association. I think we will be in a better place but, as ever, we will continue to learn from where we get things wrong as well as where we get things right. There is much that we should not be proud of here, but also I think what is most important is the commitment to do better in the future.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister. The second topical question this afternoon is to the Minister for Economy and Transport. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's actions following REHAU Ltd.'s decision to consult on the future of its factory in Amlwch? 273

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Diolch. My officials met with the company management on Monday, along with Anglesey council representatives and the local Member of Parliament, Albert Owen. The meeting was very constructive and all parties have now agreed to work together in an effort to retain employment at the site. We are also ready to provide support to the employees throughout the consultation period.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you for that response. I’ve just met senior officials locally and at a national level. I’m grateful to Welsh Government officials and Anglesey council officials for working with REHAU. It was an announcement that came from nowhere, if truth be told. It’s a company that’s operated in Amlwch for over 40 years. There is a productive and loyal workforce there. It’s a company that’s not in difficulties. This is a restructuring, and, unfortunately, Amlwch is having to pay the price for that because of the reduction in the demand for the particular product produced there—104 work there, of course. The north of Anglesey can’t afford to lose those jobs. It’s an area that’s suffered blow after blow economically. There was the Hitachi announcement, of course, about the suspension of the Wylfa Newydd scheme, which came just a week before REHAU’s announcement. There are further jobs, some 150, to disappear from the old Wylfa site in about a year's time as the decommissioning process continues.

I’ve asked specifically over the past few weeks to you and the Government for economic development support anew for Anglesey, and this area specifically. But, in terms of REHAU, I have four questions. May I ask for further assurances, in addition to what you’ve said initially, that the Government will provide sufficient resources to make a substantial offer of support to the company that may persuade them to diversify or make other products there, perhaps? Could I have further assurances too that the Welsh Government will provide support for keeping all options on the table for possible continuation of the work there, including looking at any options for supporting management buy-outs and so on and so forth? But, if the worst comes to the worst, I do hope that we will be able to rely on the Government to invest substantially in reskilling opportunities and seeking re-employment for the workforce. May I ask for assurances in that regard? And also the workforce is concerned about what kind of redundancy packages may be available, if it does come to that point. May I have an assurance from the Government that all advice and support will be referred to them to ensure that they are—in a position where they aren’t able to negotiate through unions, I understand—given fair play?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for raising this important question for his constituents and perhaps, first of all, give some background to the decision that's been made by the company and then highlight some of the options that—collaboratively with the company and with the Anglesey council officials that the Member refers to—we are looking at taking forward, including the support that might be available for those options? And then, thirdly, if I could, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd just like to touch upon the work that has taken place now within Welsh Government concerning both north-west Wales, in particular Anglesey, and also, given alarming news from Airbus and speculation over the future of the Broughton site over the long term, the support that we are looking at offering north-east Wales as well—in fact, the entire north Wales region.

First of all, in terms of the background, Rhun ap Iorwerth is absolutely right: the Amlwch site produces a particular type of PVC edge band for furniture products that has seen a sharp decline in recent years—a decline of something in the region of 75 per cent. Its sister site in Tortosa, Spain, has a number of advantages over the Amlwch site, including the fact that it has room to accommodate expansion, whereas the Amlwch site is limited. It has a more diverse product mix as well, and it has an established tooling capacity on site. Now, in terms of the options and the work that is now taking place and the potential support that we could offer the business, first of all, we're looking at the possibility of investing in the Amlwch site in order to create as level a playing field as possible with the Spanish sister site. Secondly, we are looking to assist the Amlwch site in diversifying the manufacturing base of the actual plant so that it can produce more than the specific edge band products that we've seen a sharp decline in over recent years. This, in turn, would allow a longer term strategy to be implemented that would see resilience built into the business. And then, thirdly, and I think very importantly, we and the company are exhausting all of our contacts, not just within Wales and the UK, but internationally, to look at whether there are third parties that could utilise the Amlwch site for manufacturing activity on a contract basis or, indeed, allow third-party manufacturers to utilise the existing facility. So, every option is being examined at the moment.

A number of actions have arisen from the meeting that took place on Monday, including, of course, all of the support that could be offered by Welsh Government to workers if the site were to be closed after the consultation period. We'll be relaying all of the available support in the ReAct programme to the workforce. We're identifying those third parties that could come into the Amlwch site or use the Amlwch site to produce other products. And I'll also be communicating with the main board of the company. Of course, the company is based in Germany. Its administrative headquarters is based in Switzerland, and it's run by a Swiss family. I'll be seeking to establish lines of communication with the board in order to influence the company's decision over the next 90 days.

Looking more widely and broadly at Anglesey, north-west Wales and, indeed, the whole of north Wales, I have asked officials in my department to examine all opportunities for accelerating capital spending projects in north Wales, and in particular on Anglesey, given the decision relating to Wylfa Newydd. I think it's absolutely essential that we bring forward a pipeline wherever and whenever possible in the region, but particularly on Anglesey, which can replace the jobs that have been promised in the shorter term with the Wylfa Newydd project whilst a decision is made over whether to resume that particular programme of work.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

When REHAU Group announced proposals that may lead to the closure of its manufacturing site in Amlwch, after being there for over 40 years, it not only said that there was no sign of the market for PVC edge band recovering, but also that the manufacture of alternative products on the site was, quote, 'impossible due to space restrictions'. Given what you've just told us, what discussion have you had either prior to this decision or announcement, or now that you're in dialogue with the company since their announcement, regarding the space on the site so that they could possibly diversify?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I thank Mark Isherwood for his question, and he is absolutely right: there is no end in sight in terms of the decline in demand for the particular product that's produced at the Amlwch site, and he's also right—and as I have already stated—that there's limited space on the site. However, what we're looking at doing is diversifying and switching from what is a declining product—there's a declining demand for that particular product—to either other products within the group that could be diverted temporarily or more permanently to the Amlwch site or indeed those third parties.

Now, if we were to remove some of the edge band production from the Amlwch site and then see new products brought into the site, it would, of course, require a degree of investment, and that's specifically what Welsh Government officials are now working with the company in examining. If support is required from Welsh Government, then I'm sure that we would look on it very sympathetically indeed, not least because all of the examination so far of the business would lead us to believe that it is a very responsible employer and, therefore, in our view would in all probability be able to abide by the four points of the economic contract and, of course, given what the company has traditionally produced, we believe that, in terms of the lens through which we invest in business and our calls to action, the business would be in a position to be able to draw down support. But, first of all, we need to examine precisely what opportunities there are within the group and with third parties.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 5 is the 90-seconnd statements, and the first one this afternoon is from Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Last week, my constituency office hosted a Friends Against Scams training session. Organised by Centrica British Gas, it highlighted the scale of the problem. Fifty-three per cent of people aged 65 and over have been targeted by scams, which altogether cost the UK economy somewhere between £5 billion and £10 billion a year. The human consequences are considerable. Victims of scams lose large sums of money, but they can also lose something even worse: their dignity. Scams can lead to stress, depression and isolation. Some victims consider, attempt or commit suicide, and people defrauded in their own homes are two and a half times more likely to either die or go into residential care. The average age of a scam victim is 75, although anyone can be a victim. Scams can be postal, telephone, doorstep or online. Whatever the mechanism used, they are criminal, fraudulent, and what makes it worse is that scams generate a sense of shame. Their victims suffer in silence as it's estimated that just one in 20 scams are reported to the authorities.

My thanks to Matt and Rachel for coming to Aberdare to explain how Centrica British Gas is taking action to raise awareness of scams. I proudly wear my Friends Against Scams badge, and I'd encourage other Members to sign up to this valuable training. We all have a role to play in raising awareness of the damage that scams cause to help make Wales a nation of friends against scams.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Newport County AFC travelled to Middlesbrough for their fourth round FA Cup tie last weekend. Not only were their two managers from Pillgwenlly and went to the same school, but we also share a landmark. Newport's transporter bridge is one of only six such bridges still operating in the world today. Middlesbrough is home to one of the others. To celebrate this FA Cup clash, the chairman of the Friends of Newport Transporter Bridge, David Hando, proposed to present a canvas print of the Newport bridge to the manager of the winning team, both of whom were born in the shadow of the bridge. Saturday's match ended in a draw, and we now look forward to the replay decider at Rodney Parade.

Whilst we await the final football result, we already know that Newport has won the battle of the transporter bridges. Opened in 1906, it's a much loved icon on Newport's skyline and a symbol of our proud industrial and maritime heritage. It spans the wide and fast-flowing River Usk, which has one of the highest tidal ranges in the world. It took four years to build and cost £98,000. Along with Newport City Council, the dedicated volunteers of Friends of Transporter Bridge are working hard to secure a £10 million Heritage Lottery Fund grant. Newport's beloved transporter bridge has been at the heart of our city for over a century, and I encourage people across Wales to support the campaign to ensure it remains there for future generations.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to a motion to suspend Standing Orders 11.16 and 12.20 to allow the motion to amend Standing Orders to be debated, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move that motion—Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Formally move.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. The proposal is to suspend the Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, that is agreed.

Motion to amend Standing Orders

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

So, we move on to a motion to amend the Standing Orders, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move that motion—Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Again, formally move.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. There is no debate, so the proposal is to amend the Standing Orders. Does any Member object? Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, that motion is agreed.

6. Debate on the Public Accounts Committee Report on the NHS Wales Informatics Systems

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 6 is a debate on the Public Accounts Committee report on the NHS informatics systems, and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today about the Public Accounts Committee inquiry into NHS Wales informatics systems. Members will recall that last November, the Public Accounts Committee published one of its most damning report to date. In fact, 'scathing' was used to describe our 23-page analysis of NHS Wales informatics systems—NWIS for short.

In committee, the chief executive responsible for hosting NWIS described its ambitions as world leading. However, we do not consider this to be the case, and in fact, our report highlighted a raft of problems with the dysfunctional, outdated IT systems that support our NHS. Our report made uncomfortable reading. Initiated by the auditor general’s report into informatics systems in NHS Wales, our inquiry found that many of NWIS’s digital projects are behind schedule, and some are only on schedule because their timescales have been re-ordered to show them on track. Lines of accountability are unclear, there is widespread dissatisfaction across the NHS at its performance, and major systems have repeatedly given up the ghost and with worrying regularity.

It's a matter of great concern to the committee that NWIS, first envisioned in 2003, has been unable to keep pace with advances in technology. While the technology products we have available—day-to-day use has changed beyond recognition in that time. Medical staff in Wales are still struggling with outdated IT systems that don’t deliver on their promises. And in fact, just after Christmas last year, it was reported that NHS Wales still has over 1,000 fax machines in use at hospitals and GP surgeries, with £550,000 spent on supplies since 2015, and one GP describing them as 'relics' that needed getting rid of. I'm sure you'd all agree that, particularly in a time when an e-mail offers a quicker and more secure means of transferring patient information, this is an unacceptable situation.

Sadly, these sentiments echoed throughout our inquiry. We heard how front-line medical staff are struggling with archaic and fragile IT systems. In some instances, this had led to treatments for chemotherapy and radiotherapy not being prepared on time; patients attending for treatment only to experience delays; and health professionals being unable to access blood test results and patient records. We even heard that some health professionals have resorted to paper-based records because ICT systems were simply not reliable enough. These shortcomings are also contributing to an increased likelihood of error and poor patient experience.

We do not see how this can be addressed without a radical rethink. In 2016, the total cost of developing and rolling out the new systems needed across all Welsh health boards was estimated at £484 million. But the committee could find little evidence of where the money would come from and whether it would be additional NHS funding or found within existing resources. The budget NWIS operates with is utilised predominately for keep the IT system going. So, we need to find another way to ensure that the necessary innovation is funded.

Our inquiry has also raised serious question marks about the competence, capability and capacity across the health system to deliver digital transformation in Welsh healthcare. And yet, we discovered a culture of self-censorship and denial amongst those charged with taking the agenda forward, in NWIS itself, as well as its partners in the health boards and the Welsh Government.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

We are particularly concerned at the apparent lack of openness and transparency across the whole system. Digital transformation requires an open culture, but the committee found that the culture at NWIS was the antithesis of this. The auditor general’s report identified a pattern of the organisation being 'overly positive' in reporting its progress. The committee’s evidence gathering found examples of this again and again. Troublingly, this mindset seems to be consistent with that of the health boards and the Welsh Government teams working alongside NWIS, as the committee found a collective reluctance to openly discuss the true state of progress.

We also found that witnesses were reluctant to be critical of progress or arrangements on the record. Some written evidence from two parts of the NHS was remarkably similar and the committee was left with the impression that we were getting a pre-prepared line. As a result, the committee could have little confidence in many of the assurances that we were given by NWIS and the Welsh Government. If the problems with NWIS are to be addressed, then an open and honest reflection on the current state of play and the barriers to progress is essential. Indeed, it is quite possible that this culture has prevented the committee from hearing a comprehensive range of issues and problems. In short, we remain unsure of the scale of the issues.

We are concerned that neither NWIS nor the Welsh Government are fully ready to openly recognise the scale and depth of the problems. The committee is concerned that this cultural problem may be masking wider and deeper problems, which we did not uncover. We believe a fundamental change in behaviour from NWIS and the wider NHS digital team is required if progress is to be made.

The committee is deeply concerned about the slow pace of delivery of modern informatics systems across the NHS in Wales and the underlying weaknesses in support and oversight arrangements. It's apparent that nobody is happy with the current state of affairs and nobody seems willing to take responsibility for the challenges. NHS bodies are frustrated with the slow roll-out and problems with systems they have, and are concerned about confused accountabilities. NWIS is frustrated at the lack of direction from the wider NHS. However, for us, the greatest frustration is that digital can improve the NHS and it is not being utilised anywhere near enough. A simple example is that electronic records lead to better patient care and outcomes, but in too many cases, the NHS relies on outdated paper-based records.

The committee found little evidence to show that the need to increase the pace of change had been picked up. The chief executive of NHS Wales’s acceptance of the Wales Audit Office report, which was published in March 2018—and in a letter to this committee, he referred to the 18 months of work undertaken. This suggests that the initial evidence was gathered approximately two years ago in September 2016. Now, the committee recognises that, while the auditor general was undertaking his work, the Welsh Government and the wider NHS were taking steps to begin to address many of the issues. Nonetheless, we remain concerned about the pace and urgency of action, as we saw little evidence of change.

Our report not only endorsed the findings of the Auditor General for Wales and the parliamentary review, but also made five recommendations of our own. We welcome Welsh Government’s acceptance of these recommendations and its commitment to a number of reviews to look at informatics and the development of a national informatics plan. However, we were disappointed that the response, yet again, did not seem to recognise the committee’s deep concerns about the slow pace of delivery of new informatics systems across the NHS in Wales. There still appears to be little recognition of the radical overhaul that is required and the urgency with which this needs to be delivered. We seem to be stuck in a long period of review with little change.

We note that the outcomes of the reviews will lead to change, but this needs to be achieved at pace as informatics in NHS Wales have failed to keep up with modern technology, and every day, staff within the NHS are struggling with systems that simply do not work. It simply is not good enough and the complacent attitudes of those tasked with delivering these systems in NHS Wales need to change. They must be open to the change that is needed and recognise that so far, the approach has not delivered.

The Welsh Government’s reviews and national informatics plan are scheduled for completion within six months, at which time we expect an update of the latest position regarding the plan. We will also wish to seek assurances that the Welsh Government and the wider NHS will act with the necessity needed to put in place the resources and practical changes required to improve informatics in the right timescale. We've invited relevant officials to attend a committee meeting later this year, in July, to provide us with a full progress update and to share with us the outcome of the reviews being undertaken. We sincerely hope that the committee’s report will kick-start the process of improvement and deliver to the people of Wales a modern ICT system to better deliver health services in Wales.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Could I withdraw my name, please, Deputy Presiding Officer?

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Okay. Fine. Thank you. Mohammad Asghar.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak this afternoon on the Public Accounts Committee's report on the informatics system in NHS Wales. The benefits of investing in new technology and IT are clear. Informatics can create a safer, more accessible and more sustainable healthcare system, helping the NHS to deliver better outcomes for patients and making more efficient use of financial and human resources. This report follows the previous documents by the Auditor General for Wales, published in January last year. He found that although the vision for an electronic patient record is clear and key elements are in place, there are significant delays in delivery. He went on to say there were key weaknesses in the arrangements to support and oversee delivery, and to ensure the system delivered the intended benefits. The auditor general made a number of recommendations, which, I am pleased to say, have received a very positive response from the Welsh Government. Following this report, the Public Accounts Committee agreed to hold its own inquiry into the informatics system in NHS Wales. It is very much the case that the committee's report is supplementary to that of the auditor general. During our hearing sessions, many concerns emerged or re-emerged. The main issues of concern remains the slow pace of delivery of a modern informatics system across the NHS in Wales and the underlying weaknesses in support and oversight arrangements. This concern is reflected in the frustration expressed across the NHS over delays in delivering electronic patient records, as well as concern about the resilience of core systems.

We had hoped that the pace of change would have increased since the auditor general's report a year ago. However, this is not the case. In too many cases, the NHS still relies on outdated paper-based records. The NHS Wales Informatics Service is frustrated at the lack of direction from the wider NHS, but we've found that the NHS still does not openly recognise the scale and the depth of the problem. This may be indicative of a wider potential problem, which may reveal further matters of concern that are not yet apparent. What did become apparent was a lack of openness and transparency across the whole system. Some witnesses appear to be reluctant to go on record as being critical of the progress made, or of the arrangements in place. The auditor general found that NWIS was 'overly positive' in reporting progress. Deputy Presiding Officer, their complacent mood does not sit comfortably with the committee's finding that many digital projects are behind schedule, and others only on schedule because their timescales have been amended to show them on track. Shifting the goalposts does not address the problem. The sheer pace of technological change means that the continuing delay could result in the NHS in Wales being run on outdated IT systems.

In addition to the strong endorsing of the existing recommendations made by the auditor general, this report makes five recommendations. I welcome the fact that all five recommendations have been accepted by the Welsh Government, in particular the request of the committee to receive six-monthly updates from the Welsh Government on progress on implementing the digital recommendations contained in the parliamentary review and the auditor general's report. This is essential if we are to speed up progress and deliver an IT system that is fit for purpose and delivers better outcomes for patients in Wales. I was lucky enough to meet Dr Alice Groves last week. She went to America with a group of doctors who went on a fact-finding mission especially to see this informatics system in America, and the American doctors were shocked when they were told that the NHS in Wales is still using outdated fax machines and, in some instances, that operations are being cancelled in NHS Wales operating theatres because the files for the patients were not received by the operating theatres. What I heard from Dr Groves was that we are miles behind in this field of NHS service in Wales, and we should follow a little bit and learn something from the US health service in Wales also. Thank you.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Having been absent from this place for some time, I sometimes find myself reflecting on my return about what has changed and what has not. I remember having to deal with a constituency situation where information could not be transferred effectively between two hospitals in Carmarthenshire. The upshot of that was, in fact, that the patient, who was a young adult—his parents were given his records to drive from Llanelli to Carmarthen. Not a very safe use of anybody's data, but absolutely the only way that they could get the information through in time. I did not expect to find myself, Deputy Presiding Officer, returning to this place after such a length of time to see that we still have, as this report highlights, outdated IT systems. The fact that we still have anybody using a fax machine—I don't think I would remember how to use a fax machine if I was called upon to do so—has been quite a shock to me, and as the Deputy Presiding Officer knows, I am not easily shocked.

I won't repeat the points that have been made already in Nick Ramsay's admirable contribution to this debate. There is no need to rehearse the issues; the issues are there clear enough in the report for everyone to read. But it is worth reflecting that we're not talking here about a theoretical debate or about something that's purely technical; this affects people's lives. The Velindre Cancer Centre reported that one patient did not receive chemotherapy treatment as blood results were unavailable and that there was a delay in radiotherapy treatment for eight patients. These are real patients; these are real people's lives.

What I want to concentrate on in my contribution today, Deputy Presiding Officer, are the issues of culture, the issues of the apparent inability to admit that there are serious issues, the tendency to move the goalposts instead of admitting that projects are running behind time, and simply not to acknowledge that there is a problem. And I will repeat this that Nick Ramsay said. The report says:

'Our inquiry has raised serious question marks about the competence, capability and capacity across the health system to deliver a digital transformation in Welsh healthcare. And yet we discovered a culture of self-censorship and denial amongst those charged with taking the agenda forward—in NWIS itself as well as its partners in the health boards and the Welsh Government.'

Now, I think that's a very, very serious charge. I was, therefore, pleased to see that the Welsh Government was accepting the committee's recommendations. But when I read the detail of that acceptance, it seemed to me that we were once again being told that everything was all right because the Welsh Government was already doing what the committee had said that it needed to do and that everything would be absolutely fine. Well, we only have to listen again to Nick Ramsay's contribution today to know that that isn't the case. And it isn't just me commenting on this culture. I would quote to the Minister his Labour—and now ministerial—colleague Lee Waters, saying,

'Digital change isn’t just about technology, it’s about a change of culture. It’s about being open. It’s about using data to solve problems. Instead of designing services from the viewpoint of what a health board or a local authority thinks a citizen needs, a digital approach involves designing services that meet the needs of the end user.'

And I think that's absolutely—absolutely—correct. I am not reassured by the Government's response yet, and I hope that the Minister may be able to provide myself and, more importantly, the committee members who have done this very valuable work with reassurance that things from now on will really change, because they certainly have not yet.

Now, I think the six-monthly reporting to the committee—and I am particularly glad to see that the Government has committed to do that—. It is unusual for a committee to ask for that on an ongoing basis, and I think that does show how seriously they take these issues, and therefore so should we all. I think that would be important and that's very welcome. More important will be to see whether or not the Minister is prepared to abandon his apparent complacency and be ready to take a robust lead in delivering change and creating a culture that can accept challenge. Whether he can, or whether he will choose to do so, remains to be seen.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

I now call the Minister for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank the committee for their report and the debate today. We may not agree on every single issue at the end of it, but I think there is a shared ambition for our digital future within the world of health and care. Of course, 'A Healthier Wales' puts digital technology transformation and basic, essential use at the heart of transforming health and care. I'm clear that it is our ambition to have the investment, systems, skills and leadership in place to deliver that.

This is a key aspect of our daily lives, and, of course, health and care is no exception. Our challenge is catching up with the reality of how we live our lives. People expect information about their care to be available where and when it is needed, and that is what our national approach aims to provide. I do recognise concerns over the pace of delivery, the stability of our systems and leadership. I made a clear commitment in 'A Healthier Wales' to accelerate digital change for the benefit of society and, indeed, the wider Welsh economy. The Government's additional investment of £25 million of capital and £25 million of revenue for digital in the next financial year will make a significant difference to help us to drive that change. To ensure that we work with increased pace and focus on priorities, we now have a three-year national informatics plan developed through engagement with health boards, trusts and policy officials, and we will focus on replacing cancer, eyecare, pathology and hospital pharmacy systems. We'll increase investment in technology to aid the mobilisation of our care professionals and the delivery of an online service.

It is worth remembering that, in Wales, we have taken an incremental approach to developing IT systems for the NHS. When Informing Healthcare was set up in 2003 it had an annual budget of £30 million. In contrast, in England, the national programme for IT was cut short after spending £7.3 billion and the National Audit Office reported that money spent on care record systems did not represent value for money. In addition, the Major Projects Authority concluded that the programme in England was not fit to provide the modern IT services that the NHS requires.

We already have achieved a range of things in terms of digital delivery. Our national systems allow professionals across health and care to access a single, up-to-date view of the patient's care record and for images to be shared across Wales. The level of services is improved, time is saved and risk and cost reduced. Wales is one of the first countries to use a national test results service, meaning that test results are available where and when they're needed, regardless of organisational boundaries. I've seen for myself, as I hope Members have, too, the difference that Choose Pharmacy makes for patients, who can now get prescribed medicines from pharmacists in an emergency without reference to a GP because they have access to the patient's information. That system is now live in more than 95 per cent of eligible pharmacies, and for a change in an IT project, it is on budget and ahead of schedule.

GPs in Wales are able to use one of two centrally managed IT systems to provide everything from desktop support to managed print services, hopefully allowing GPs to focus more of their time to treat people in their care. Patients are increasingly able to make use of digital technology to help their own care and treatment, from booking appointments online, ordering repeat prescriptions and accessing data from their health records. There is, though, much more to do. The introduction of text reminders, as one example, has helped to reduce the number of missed appointments.

Our approach to digital systems supports a system where health and care are integrated and they must have the citizen at the centre. So, the Welsh community care information system has already gone live in 13 organisations and I'm clear that I want more to come on board progressively until we have the whole country covered, to deliver a shared view of the patient, of the person, to colleagues in health and social services, to improve safety and the quality of care. This is the first time that such a programme has been delivered on a national scale anywhere.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm very grateful to the Minister. I'm wondering if you can provide us today with—. What you've been saying is very positive, and we'd all welcome that, I'm sure, but can you provide us with the latest figures with regard to outages in the current NHS system? If you're not able to provide those figures today, would you be prepared to write to Members in that regard? Because that is, obviously, absolutely crucial—the positive developments that you're describing today won't work if the systems keep crashing.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'll come to outages later in my remarks. In Wales, we're developing an online directory of services that aggregates information from across health, care and voluntary sectors to make it easier for citizens to find information on services relevant to them. As outlined in my response to the Public Accounts Committee, a review of NHS digital architecture is under way, and that will guide plans for how the architecture is developed for the future to take account of advances in the marketplace and best practice from elsewhere. We still want to be a learning and open service. I'll be acting on the review's report, which is due before the end of this financial year.

As we become more reliant on our systems, in what is a complex environment, it is doubly important that the systems are safe and resilient, and there were a number of outages last year. NWIS have now stepped up to maintain and upgrade our systems, and I'm pleased to report that there have been no major incidents with IT systems since the start of September last year. I've also increased investment in cyber security and established new processes in the event of cyber or system failure.

But delivering the change that we're looking for will require the right level of digital skills and leadership within the health service. That requires looking across the whole system, not with a focus on just one organisation within it. As promised in my response to the Public Accounts Committee, the review of informatics governance in the NHS has now been completed and its report has been submitted to the Government.

Simple points solutions will not work. We need rather more radical, multiple and co-ordinated actions across all parts of the system. There is widespread support for change and a clear recognition that now is the opportunity to create a more resilient and responsive system that is genuinely fit for the future.

The review makes a series of recommendations for both the short and medium term under four key themes: establishing a chief digital officer for health to strengthen national digital leadership; creating a new standards authority and mandating informatics standards; establishing a new digital development team to support innovation and to accelerate the pace of delivery, with priorities set nationally; and to bring together the current dispersed regional and national informatics services in a shared service arrangement for data infrastructure and delivery.

I will, of course, publish the report in due course. In the meantime, I've asked my officials to work with the health service to consider the recommendations. I will update Members before Easter recess on our response to the review's recommendations. Of course, it's not just the digital skills and capability of our workforce that are important. We must be mindful of the impact on our citizens, in particular those who may have difficulty taking advantage of new services. I therefore have committed £3 million for a health-focused element to our digital inclusion programme over the next three years to build a network of champions in the service and in the community. We will continue to look beyond the boundaries of health to bring benefits to our citizens. NWIS is working with colleagues elsewhere in the public sector, and the digital health ecosystem for Wales is fostering collaboration between the service, academia and industry to drive innovation. Whilst not losing sight of the achievements, I know there is much more to do. I am confident that we will deliver a healthier Wales, with improved digital capability and access at its heart.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I now call on Nick Ramsay to reply to the debate?

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank all of the Members who've contributed to today's debate? It might have been a little shorter than some debates that we have in this Chamber, but I think that all of the points that Members made were well made and to be welcomed.

There have been some recurrent themes that have been touched on by all Members, starting with Mohammad Asghar, who mentioned the issues of transparency and the need for openness. I think we need to know the scale of the problem before us, and to accept that so that we can find solutions—that's key. And that's what PAC reports like this are here to do: to shed light on those areas where things are failing—respecting the fact that there are other areas where progress is being made and success is happening—those areas that are failing, like in this area, need to be put right.

Helen Mary Jones reminds us she's not easily shocked, but you are right to be shocked or taken aback by this report. It is a hard-hitting report—I don't make any bones about that. It is a scathing report. It doesn't hold any punches, because it is reporting on the evidence that we received, and deep concerns that were in some sectors about the problems that we're facing with the informatics in the NHS. As you said, Helen Mary, this isn't a theoretical debate. It's actually, as I speak here now, as you spoke earlier—out there in Wales, it is affecting real people, it's affecting staff and it's affecting patients. Perhaps 50 years ago when computers were, well, certainly in their infancy and informatics probably wasn't even imagined, these sorts of issues were obviously not relevant. But now they are. They're relevant to other areas of life and they're increasingly relevant to the health service.

I'm glad, Helen Mary, that you quoted Lee Waters—Lee Waters, a previous member and a valued member of the Public Accounts Committee. I know that these are issues—a different hat on now, of course, so you're not part of this debate today, but you put a lot of work in with the rest of the committee and that's to be welcomed as well. Digital transformation, when you quoted Lee, is about being open. That echoes Mohammad Asghar's earlier comments as well. That's what we're trying to achieve here.

Turning to the Minister's response—and I think it's a well-meaning response, as Helen Mary said, it's a response that contained a lot in it to be welcomed. Thank you for the spirit that you delivered it in, Minister, and thank you for your evidence that you gave to the committee. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted our recommendations. I'm pleased more than anything because they need to be accepted. You're right: we all want improvement in this area.

The issue that we have—one of the predominant, overriding issues—is the pace of change. It cannot be right that Assembly Members who were here back in the early days of devolution, when we were discussing exactly the same problems, have now come back and everything is as it was. That can't be right. So, pace is the issue. Yes, there have been improvements, yes, things have moved on in some areas, but it needs to happen quicker. We need to have capacity. We need to have a capacity within the Welsh Government, within the NHS system—a capacity and the skills that are required to put this situation right. The committee wasn't convinced that that capacity is there at the moment. There was evidence of capability in the system—we had a long discussion about the difference between capability and capacity—but there were concerns about the scale of that capacity.

Outages—Members mentioned the number of outages. I'm pleased to hear there haven't been any since last September because, quite frankly, with the scale of some of the outages that were happening, they were really holding the system back and holding progress back. That has to be sorted out so that we can move on.

There is support for change—within the Welsh Government, dare I say, within this Chamber itself—of course there is support for change across the board. We all want this sorted out. It is going to take money, but it's also going to take a change of mindset—or a moving on of the mindset is probably a better way to put it—because there is undoubtedly a desire, amongst all the stakeholders that we took evidence from, for this position to be improved. But we're nowhere near there yet. We're on a road, but we want to get where we're going far faster than we are. Let's give the NHS the informatics system that it deserves. Let's give the people of Wales, patients and staff the system that they deserve and need. We've waited a long time. I plead with the Minister to employ your commitment to this to make sure that we do get an improvement in the informatics system that we all want to see.