Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 13 February 2019

333 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy and Transport

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the first question is from Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

1. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government transport investment plans for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ53403

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I am committed to investing in better transport services and infrastructure in Merthyr and Rhymney, and I understand that good progress is being made with the new Merthyr bus station.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Transport and infrastructure investment does obviously remain a high priority in my constituency. Irrespective of the Brexit process, I'm clear that improvements to be delivered through the metro system, progress in the next phase of improvements on the A465 Heads of the Valleys, along with the bus station that you've just mentioned are all causes for optimism in the years ahead. So, can you therefore just confirm that these key infrastructure projects are now to be delivered with urgency and pace, so that my constituency continues to see further positive changes in line with that which was outlined in 'Our Valleys, Our Future' programme?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Can I thank Dawn Bowden for her question that covers three areas—the metro system, the A465 and the new bus station? Progress is being made at pace on all three key components of our intervention within the Valleys region. First of all, I can say that, with regard to the A465, we are making good progress in terms of the orders. We're going to be in position to be able to move forward with the next sections of the scheme. Construction is planned to start early in 2020 and will take approximately three and a half years to deliver. This is a huge undertaking, an infrastructure project valued at almost £1 billion for the Heads of the Valleys. And in terms of Merthyr bus station, £10 million is being committed under the Wales infrastructure investment fund to help develop that particular piece of infrastructure, and the local authority, I'm pleased to say, has submitted a further application to the local transport fund for 2018-19 for the construction of the bus station. So, officials are currently assessing the application.

In terms of the metro system, as the Member is aware, the south Wales metro will deliver four trains per hour from Merthyr to Cardiff Queen Street from 2022, and from 2023 for Rhymney services. Transport for Wales will introduce new metro vehicles—if you like, tram trains—on the Merthyr line in 2022, and that will mean that there are 600 more seats in morning peak times, and 1,000 more seats during evening peak times, and journey time between Merthyr Tydfil and Cardiff Central will fall from the current one hour to approximately 48 minutes from December 2023. All of these interventions are designed to remove the key barrier of lack of decent, modern, affordable public transport that people need in order to access jobs.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, improvements to the A465 Heads of the Valleys road are critical to the social and economic regeneration of communities such as Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. You will be aware, Minister, that concerns have been expressed about delays and the increased cost of the dualling of the A465 between Gilwern and Brynmawr. Given that the next stage of improvements, between Dowlais Top and Hirwaun, is due to commence this year, can the Minister confirm that this project will commence on time, and what lessons has he learnt to ensure that the delays and costs overrun experienced previously will not occur again in this instance? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question? As I outlined to Dawn Bowden, we expect construction to begin in 2020. The phase of the scheme that the Member refers to, in terms of the cost pressures, has been an extremely difficult challenge for the contractors. We are, of course, managing cost overruns. It's our intention, though, to make sure that the entire project is delivered as soon as possible for the least quantum of investment, and so that people can find their communities regenerated across the Heads of the Valleys region.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

2. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure indigenous businesses seeking to expand and grow are able to do so within their locality? OAQ53412

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. In line with our economic action plan, we are supporting indigenous businesses across Wales to expand and grow by providing advice, support and finance through Business Wales and the Development Bank of Wales.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Deputy Minister for his answer. We are very good in some places at being able to help people start up businesses. In my constituency, and particularly in Port Talbot, we have sufficient numbers of start-up units available for businesses to get into and spend their first year or two as they start to develop and grow. But what we are finding is, as they want to grow and expand, the next size of units—the 5,000 sq ft type of units—we're short of, and therefore businesses tend to actually expand and leave the area as a consequence of that. Now, it may be that this is down to the responsibility of local authorities—I appreciate the concept—but what are you doing to work with local authorities to ensure that we're able to ensure that businesses can start, grow, stay, and expand the workforce and keep the employment in the areas?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. The growth of indigenous, grounded firms is a central plank of the approach we're taking on growing the foundational economy. It's a well-recognised problem in the shape of the Welsh economy that we have numerous small and microbusinesses but that many struggle to grow to medium, and then beyond that. So, we'll be looking at a range of interventions to tackle that. One of those is the availability of property. As the Member will know already, in Port Talbot, using the European regional development fund-funded property infrastructure fund, there are two projects that are being developed to create some 6,000 sq m of new business premises, providing accommodation for up to 34 SMEs. And we're also in discussion with the Development Bank of Wales to examine the potential for a new commercial property development fund that will help also to provide additional premises.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Tourism is one of those parts of our economy where there is still plenty of scope for expansion, particularly for small enterprises. Actually, I'm just thinking of the Afan Valley, as it was David Rees who asked the question originally. A huge scope here for our indigenous businesses to grow here. Unfortunately, of course, some of our small businesses don't see themselves as part of our visitor economy, and I'm hoping that Welsh Government can give us some steer on this. In particular, I'm wondering if you can give us some information on how the Welsh Government is engaging with the whole process of the UK tourism sector deal. I think the consultation is due to come to an end fairly soon on that. We're quick enough to moan when VisitBritain, for example, doesn't help us on this devolved matter, but if we can get some advantage from this, then that's got to be good news for our small businesses.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Yes, tourism remains one of the focuses in the economic action plan of the foundation sectors, and we've been working closely with the UK Government to see what advantages we can draw out of their work, and bringing our work together. We have the tourism infrastructure fund as well, which is proving successful, and I can assure the Member of our continued commitment in this area.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I had the pleasure last week of visiting an engineering company, BICO in Beaumaris in Anglesey, which does superb work in the area of engineering in very specialist technical areas. It’s a company that I’m sure we could see growing in years to come. You will be aware that I and my party are in favour of the regionalisation of economic development in order to ensure that economic prosperity is something that happens across Wales. Would the Government agree with me that there is scope to develop 'grow locally' campaigns, as a central part of that kind of regional approach?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Absolutely. I think a regional economic focus is essential, and the economic action plan puts this front and centre of our approach from now on. We are currently aligning the teams within the Welsh Government to make sure that the expertise and the capacity is there to take this forward. And it is also important to be engaged with local authorities in a spirit of mutual respect, working together, to take their view on how their regions should grow, and we work alongside with them, rather than imposing on them what we think the best interests of a region are. The foundational economy approach is also really important to this—the growth of SMEs and grounded firms—and how we can use the near public sector, the scattered array of small companies that depend on the public sector for much of their work, and how we can use procurement to make sure more value is captured locally and doesn't leak out. And we'll be making some announcements over the coming weeks about starting work in this area, and I'd be very keen to work with the Member to develop those thoughts, building on the joint announcement we made in the budget of our £1.5 million fund to develop the foundational economy with Plaid Cymru.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. How many premises will be enabled for fast, reliable broadband under phase 2 of the Superfast Cymru scheme, and at what cost to the public purse?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

As the Member knows, we are planning to extend superfast to 26,000 premises by March 2021, at a cost of nearly £22.5 million in Welsh Government and EU funding through the flexible roll-out of fibre. It should also be noted that this is not a devolved area. This is an area that the UK Government has responsibility for. Left to the market alone, only some 45 per cent of premises in Wales would have superfast coverage. As a result of action this Government has taken, that has now increased to 95 per cent. We have spent £200 million in making sure the gap left by the market and the UK Government has been filled. But, clearly, this is something we can only continue to develop if we work closely with the UK Government to try and fill that gap.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Deputy Minister. You've announced the £22 million that has been allocated. Your predecessor last year announced £85 million would be allocated to phase 2. So, can I ask you—my calculation is that that's £62 million remaining—how you plan to spend that £62 million in regard to phase 2?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

That's a perfectly fair question, and I think it's fair to say that we are still thinking through the implications of how we do that. One of the problems we have is the diminishing appetite of the private sector to engage in this area. There is more profit available for the private companies in providing faster speeds to people who already have broadband than there is in reaching those who have no broadband, and that is a market failure. So, we need to think about how we can creatively fill that gap, working with as many partners as we can to make sure that what is now a key utility is available to as many houses as possible.

I think really what needs to happen is the UK Government needs to recognise that broadband and fibre and digital are now a universal service, and there should be a universal service obligation, just as there is in other key utilities, so that we don't simply rely on how much profit can be generated or how much additional funding we can find to fill that gap. But that is something required by providers to make sure that nobody is left behind.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I thank you for the answer, Deputy Minister. Of course, Superfast Cymru is a Welsh Government scheme, and there are some elements of other schemes that you announced last year and in previous years, which I do welcome, but they're not going to cover and be relevant to all premises across Wales. Now, if we look at phase 1, there were areas across Wales that, after the end of phase 1, were the worst broadband coverage areas, and they included the Presiding Officer's constituency in Ceredigion, mine in Powys, in Pembrokeshire and in Carmarthenshire. They were the worst areas for broadband coverage across the entirety of Wales.

So, you would have thought phase 2 would be entirely focused or prioritising, at the very least, those areas—priority for those areas. In fact, the complete opposite has happened and attention has been spent on the areas that are already serviced well. This is the frustration for many people across rural parts of Wales. Now, if I take the example of Pembrokeshire, of all the premises that were left at the end of phase 1 without a connection to Superfast Cymru, only 4 per cent of that number is now going to be covered in phase 2. That is what is so disappointing, and that's the frustration for many people across rural Wales. So, can you accept that this approach to delivering fibre broadband is flawed, and what are you going to do about the 67,000 premises that are still going to be left in the lurch in two years' time from now?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, I entirely share the frustration. We have made significant funding available to tackle this issue, which, as I repeat, is a non-devolved area. We're not getting a Barnett consequential for this. We're doing this out of our own budgets because the UK Government and Ofcom are not meeting the needs of Wales, so we have stepped in. But there are limitations to the impact we're able to have.

In any telecommunications revolution, we have seen parts of Wales difficult to reach. Rural Wales was not at the forefront of having tv signals or fixed telephone lines, so it's no surprise that, because of the topography, we have challenges getting full fibre roll-out into all rural areas. We are not deliberately focusing on these easy areas. What we've done is—. We've heard the Member and his benches constantly urging us to work in partnership with the private sector, which is what we are doing. The private sector have decided that it's easier for them to only bid for some of the money available to deliver the returns that they expect for their investment. So, we've been left to their judgment of which work they want to tender for and which we've been able to award. It has left a gap, which we are anxious to fill and we are looking at creative ways we can fill that. But, as I plea again, if the party opposite would speak to their colleagues in Westminster and make the case for a universal service obligation—[Interruption.] Russell George says it's a Welsh Government scheme. It is a Welsh Government scheme, but it shouldn't be up to the Welsh Government to fill this gap. This is a non-devolved area. The UK Government has responsibility for digital infrastructure across the UK. They are the ones who should be making sure that all parts of Wales are reached. They have failed to do so—they have failed to do so. We have stepped in with Welsh Government money to fill this gap, working with the private sector. The private sector is not interested, frankly, in reaching all the properties available, and so, we are looking for ways to fill that, and we are committed to doing so. And I'd appreciate his help rather than just his cheap shots.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Sayed.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thanks. I wanted to ask the first question as to whether you've made an economic analysis of the potential cuts to higher education. I appreciate that this is primarily in relation to the education portfolio, but if we look at this in a holistic way, any job losses—be those in Bangor, be those in Carmarthen, or be those in Cardiff, with a £21 million deficit in its budget announced recently—are going to affect the economy of Wales. It's pretty ironic that, in the week that is termed 'HeartUnions', potentially, trade unions in Wales are having to mobilise for compulsory redundancies here in Wales. What economic analysis are you making of the potential to our communities of these job losses?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

It's my understanding that these are fully autonomous organisations and so, decisions on budgets the universities make.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I think that's pretty blasé, I'm sorry, Minister, because this will affect people on the ground—their livelihoods, where they spend their money, how they spend their money, the jobs that they will be able to go to and the skills that we will have in our communities. So, I'll ask you again: what economic analysis will you have on a Wales basis as to the impact of the cuts to our higher education sector? Notwithstanding the fact that they may not have other jobs to go to because of—[Interruption.]—I'm hearing from the sidelines the education Minister saying, 'What cuts?' We've heard in the media in the last few days that Cardiff University are going to move to look to have compulsory redundancies because of the financial deficit in the higher education sector. What impact will that have on the Welsh economy?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

No, sorry, we just have to clarify: what are the cuts? This isn't about cuts coming from Welsh Government—from the department for education and skills. This is about decisions being made by universities, based on the way that they manage their own affairs. This is not based on cuts from Welsh Government.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm not saying that it's based on Welsh Government cuts; I'm saying that it's based on what analysis are you making of the potential for those cuts, taking place here in Wales, where jobs will be lost. We are hearing that from meetings that all of my colleagues have been arranging across Wales. So, instead of putting your head in the sand, what are you going to be doing about that so that we can ensure that the higher education sector can be successful?

I did want to ask a question also on regional skills partnerships here today. The former Deputy Minister for skills outlined plans for further education as part of Welsh Government plans to improve the skills and training sector. Many of those regional skills partnerships are not funded sufficiently, and we were told that there was going to be an independent adviser commissioned by the Welsh Government into those regional skills partnerships. Can you give us an update on that and whether you are still following on with that plan that Eluned Morgan had in relation to regional skills partnerships?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I first of all thank the Member for acknowledging that there are no cuts to higher education from Welsh Government. I think that's very helpful to clarify, and I think, in reflecting on that very fact, I should also say that we have been relentless in fighting for the higher education sector, just as we have been relentless in supporting the further education sector as well. But we are still fighting against nine years of biting austerity.

Now, in terms of the regional skills partnerships, I'm pleased to be able to say to the Member that I have asked for an independent external review to be carried out into the RSPs. Meanwhile, we are supporting our RSPs with £5 million specifically of apprenticeship funding to align apprenticeship provision with what businesses in the respective regions require.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd—[Inaudible.]—difficulties faced by Cardiff commuters in gaining access to the city, could the Minister outline Welsh Government plans to alleviate these problems?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'm sorry, I didn't catch the first part of the question.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Okay. Given the great difficulties faced by Cardiff commuters in gaining access to the city, could the Minister outline the Welsh Government's plans to alleviate these problems?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Absolutely. The plans are captured within the vision for the south Wales metro, and will be paid for with a huge sum of capital investment, more than £700 million. Key to the infrastructure within Cardiff will be new parkways and the development of a new Cardiff bus station, and we hope, with UK Government support, should it be forthcoming, the redevelopment of Cardiff Central station.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Minister for that answer. I lately had the misfortune to have to use the southern access road known as Rover Way. Whilst I understand that this does, for some unknown reason, not constitute a trunk road, and therefore falls outside your direct remit, the road is in such an appalling condition that it cries out for some sort of government intervention. Surely, Minister, there is some form of financial assistance that the Welsh Government could implement so that Cardiff city council can give this vital artery into our capital city a major overhaul.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I say that we are supporting local authorities with additional resource to address potholes, and we also offer funding through the local transport fund to ensure that local roads remain of adequate quality? I think what's most important for Cardiff as it continues to grow is that it gets a twenty-first century public transport system, and in that regard, the development of the metro, and, of course, radical reform of local bus services, will be very important indeed.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Again, I thank the Minister for his answer. However, this indeed could be a candidate for the mutual investment model, or. again, is there a possible intervention by Cardiff capital city region? Surely, Minister, it is not beyond your considerable expertise to find a suitable funding mechanism to address this dire situation. This road is in an appalling condition. The money given to potholes is not going to solve the problem, and it is a very busy and very important access road into Cardiff.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I'd have to consult with the finance Minister as to whether the mutual investment model could be adopted for such a purpose, but, of course, even if it could be, it would be a decision for the local authority and/or, as the Member suggests, the Cardiff capital region. As a Welsh Government, we're doing all we can with our precious resource in order to improve transport infrastructure not just within Cardiff, but across the whole of Wales, and decisions must be based on the need to invest fairly across the whole of Wales. We would encourage our local partners in local government to ensure that all roads are kept up to a minimum standard, and to utilise the additional resource wherever possible, which we've made available through the pothole fund.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s new economic contract for businesses? OAQ53407

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, the economic contract has been very well received since its launch in May. We've agreed over 120 contracts with businesses across Wales and, later this year, we intend to apply the economic contract principles to a wider range of settings, including, I'm pleased to say, our sponsored bodies, and also infrastructure contracts.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch, Minister. Earlier this month, I was very pleased to lead a short debate with cross-party support on a contract for better mental health first aid in the workplace. I know that the Minister is very passionate about this issue, just like I am and many others in this Chamber are. I'm sure he believes that it makes sense, both from a human and financial perspective, to ensure that we protect mental health within the workplace in the same way we do physical health.

Llywydd, most of us spend more time within the workplace than we do in our own homes, and this week, personally for me, I've struggled with my own mental health. I struggle simply to get up and face the world, and I'm sure I'm not alone. We simply must do more to support well-being within the workplace.

Minister, will you agree with me that campaigns such as Where's Your Head At? are vital in ensuring employers look after the well-being of their workforce by aiming to make it compulsory to have mental first aiders in work? Finally, Minister, would you agree to meet with me to see how we could support such initiatives as part of the Welsh Government's economic contract?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Jack Sargeant for his question? I'd be delighted to meet with him to discuss how we can further utilise the economic contract for this purpose. This is an issue that he and I share a very keen interest in. It's an issue that causes almost £100 billion of damage to the UK economy in terms of lost output per year—the estimate is between £74 billion and £100 billion. Indeed, Llywydd, for businesses themselves, the cost is incredible. An independent study recently suggested an annual cost of between £33 billion and £42 billion to UK employers, because of poor mental health in the workplace. More than half of that figure can be attributed to people coming in to work but not being able to face a day's work without mental health issues. It was one of the reasons why I thought it was so important to include mental health as one of the four criteria in the economic contract, and I have to say that we are already seeing behavioural change within many businesses. We are seeing examples of very best practice such as at GoCompare and Bluestone and Wockhardt. I don't wish to be prescriptive through the economic contract as to how businesses improve well-being and mental health in the workplace because there are a huge number of businesses already showing great creativity and innovation in this field. I'd like to see their best practice diffused and disseminated across the economy.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Minister, I was pleased to see the new economic contract, given the hostility to private enterprise displayed by the UK leadership of your party, particularly the shadow chancellor. Minister, will you confirm that the key to economic success in Wales is true partnership between the public and private sectors, and Government providing the best environment for private enterprise to thrive?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I would very much agree with the Member that social partnership is essential in driving inclusive growth in making sure that we do all put our shoulders to the same purpose. That means involving Government. It involves the public sector, it involves business, and, of course, it also involves our colleagues in trade unions. I am delighted that the UK Labour Party have recognised the value of the economic contract in driving inclusive growth, and I do hope that it will be adopted when the Labour Government is formed at Westminster.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Minister, I think that the economic contract is a positive step in terms of broadening the intended impact of Welsh Government support for smaller Welsh businesses. Can you clarify, Minister, what form of financial assistance will be given to Welsh firms, in terms of financial support? Will this assistance be delivered through a loans arrangement, and if so, what is the Welsh Government's strategy in terms of loans, going forward?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, in terms of the support that's available, I think the Member is referring to the support that might be required in order for businesses to reach the point where they've successfully signed the contract. That would be provided through Business Wales, both in terms of potential financial support, but more importantly, I think, probably, the advisory service that can be offered. In terms of loans versus grants, this is something that has occupied minds and debate in this place since the dawn of devolution. I'm still keen to ensure that we move away from a high dependence on grants towards greater utilisation of loans through the Development Bank of Wales and, where we do use grants, we align them more closely with our priorities, making sure that grants are utilised in geographical areas where there are higher instances of unemployment or where there is a greater need to skill up the workforce. In terms of grants generally, we should be applying the economic contract more widely. That includes across Government departments and within local authorities, and also through the procurement process.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on financial returns accruing from the Wales Development Bank? OAQ53405

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. The Development Bank of Wales manages a number of funds for the Welsh Government, which it invests in Welsh businesses to enable them to grow and to prosper. The returns received from these investments are either recycled within the fund for future investments or repaid back to Welsh Government.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

We were delighted on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee to conduct our annual scrutiny of the Wales development bank last week. Last year, I hosted a lunch at the Assembly for Giles Thorley and a number of his senior team. I've been very impressed with their capability, and optimistic as to what the bank is going to achieve, building on Finance Wales. The Minister set out the two possible things that might happen if the bank, as we hope, makes more money from interest and equity investments than it may lose on those loans where there's a degree of risk, and not all will succeed. However, what is the Government's policy as to what proportion of those moneys are going to stay with the bank versus come back to Government to fund other priorities, and will that depend on how successful the bank is?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question, and also say how grateful I am for his support of the development bank? As an opposition Member, it would be very easy—and I'm sure it's very tempting at times—for him to be critical, simply because he's an opposition Member, of anything that the Welsh Government does. I do recognise his support for the good work of the development bank, and I look forward to seeing the EIS committee carry out a thorough investigation or inquiry into the work of the development bank and the benefits that have been accrued so far.

The Member raises a very important point about how we use money, what proportion is recycled and what proportion is returned to the Welsh Government. And when an individual fund reaches the end of its life, any realised or accrued capital is generally dealt with in one of two ways. First of all, we've got financial transactions capital. That has to be paid back to central finance and, ultimately, back to Her Majesty's Treasury, and repayment schedules are agreed with the Development Bank of Wales to this effect. However, on the other hand, we have core capital that can be recycled within the fund on an evergreen basis, and it's our desire to see as much of that recycled as possible. But it should be stated—and this may sound obvious, but it should be restated—that there are rules relating to the use of returns from EU funding, which state that it must be used for similar purposes as originally intended. So, again, it can be continued to be used for ongoing investment in small and medium-sized enterprises.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can the Minister state how much of the investment in the Welsh development bank comes form transaction capital, Europe, borrowing on the open market and other sources, including recycling money?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, since the launch in October 2017, the Member will be aware of various new funds that have been announced. There was the Wales flexible investment fund, which is a massive boost—a £130 million boost. Then, in May, I launched Angels Invest Wales, which is the Development Bank of Wales's new business angel network. And alongside this, I launched the new £8 million Wales angel co-investment fund. I think the point that the Member raises about the proportion of money that is raised through financial transaction capital can be answered. I will write to the Member and provide a copy of the statement to all Members in the Chamber.FootnoteLink

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of rolling stock on the Rhymney to Cardiff rail line? OAQ53416

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Transport for Wales anticipates new rolling stock to be provided by May 2019, if not earlier.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

When James Price gave evidence to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, he indicated that there would be additional rolling stock by May this year; if not by May, then possibly by March. Peak time, particularly coming home at peak time, on the Cardiff to Rhymney line is terrible. Seating is very hard to come by. This improvement in March/May would be very welcome. Can you provide an update on how progress is being made, what extra seats would likely be provided, how many extra seats are likely to be provided, and what further progress would be made by the end of this year?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Can I thank the Member for his question, and just say how much I value the pressure that the Member has placed on me and Transport for Wales to ensure that his constituents get the best possible services through Transport for Wales? They are requiring five class 769 trains for the Rhymney line. I said that we aim to have them on the tracks by May of this year, but it's my hope that we could see them delivered next month. I think it's important to reflect on the fact that capacity on the network at the moment is severely stretched, and so I'm pleased to say that capacity will be increased from 212 to 292 seats on those trains that are going to be brought into use.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

I believe the Minister and Transport for Wales have suggested we may in due course see tri-mode trains on this line, with both overhead electric, diesel and battery operation. How firm is that policy, because I'm aware that some concerns have been raised as to the added weight of the battery and, despite the advantage of that for coming through the Caerphilly tunnel, whether that added weight elsewhere in operation may make the trains overall less efficient? Not everyone is agreed that this is necessarily the right technical solution, given that we haven't really seen it elsewhere in the world.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

They are tried and tested, the tri-mode trains, and they will be used on the Rhymney line from 2023. They use a mix of diesel power, overhead electric and also battery power. In terms of battery power, huge strides are being made in terms of the development of new lighter, smaller batteries, and I think, whilst there is some disagreement amongst experts at the moment, there is recognition that, as technology advances, the weight of battery units in trains and in cars will go on falling and, therefore, those units and vehicles will become more efficient and be able to cope with more passengers as well.

The whole point of our procurement exercise was that it was mode-agnostic. We were driven by the objectives, and the objective was to ensure that we could deliver as many services as frequently as possible, carrying as many people as possible, and the market assessed what would be best for each and every line, and determined that on the Rhymney line a tri-mode solution was the most appropriate.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

6. How will the Welsh Government expenditure on public transport benefit the Rhondda? OAQ53417

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we're moving forward with our ambitious vision to reshape public transport infrastructure and services right across Wales and, of course, including local bus services, rail services, active travel and the south Wales metro.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

When the details of the new train franchise were announced, it was revealed that the new headquarters would be located in the Treforest area. Now, I'm of the view that this was a missed opportunity to locate a major employer in an area where jobs, particularly well-paid jobs, are even more scarce than they are in Treforest. The Heads of the Valleys area in my constituency, places such as Maerdy, Ferndale, Treherbert, are examples of places where the new transport headquarters would have made a big difference to the local economy, and gone a long way towards rectifying decades of neglect. Since you earlier welcomed pressure from Members, I would like to know what other opportunities there may be to ensure that the communities that I represent in the Rhondda benefit from the new rail franchise. Can you tell the people that I represent how, in the future, the Rhondda can directly benefit from employment opportunities under the new rail franchise?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, as a not-for-profit organisation, there will be huge opportunities for local businesses to benefit from the new franchise. Transport for Wales will be looking at utilising stations to ensure that they can be used by businesses and start-ups, but I have to say to the Member that Rhondda Cynon Taf is the single biggest beneficiary of the next phase of metro. Transport for Wales, as the Member is already aware, have several imminent improvements planned for rail services in the Rhondda. I should just repeat them, though: by the end of this year, we'll be introducing a number of newer-class trains operating on the route, as I said to Hefin David, increasing capacity from 212 on the older trains to 292; there'll be an increase in the frequency of Sunday services between Cardiff Central and Treherbert to one train per hour; a deep cleaning programme will be in place at all stations in the Rhondda as part of an initial refresh; and automatic ticket machines will be in place at all stations within the Member's constituency as well that do not currently have these facilities. And in the longer term, the Rhonda will directly benefit from Transport for Wales's hugely ambitious transformative plans for the south Wales metro. That includes opportunities for businesses to exploit in terms of supply chain opportunities as the infrastructure of the south Wales metro is delivered.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Apposite to that, I think the major regeneration for Porth town centre, which is currently being considered by RCT council, includes a new transport hub and station quarter, and that would link into the south Wales metro. We know that we have many cases in Wales where bus and rail stations are in separate locations, timetables are not synchronised and there are restrictions on taking, for example, bicycles onto public transport. So, what support are you giving to RCT council in schemes like that transport hub for Porth, where all is under one roof? And how quickly will we hear some of these announcements?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I'm pleased to be able to say to the Member that officials are currently considering an initial report from Transport for Wales on options for extending metro services into Rhondda Fach from Porth. I'll be updating Members as soon as possible on those considerations. But in terms of the hubs, we're looking at being able to support as many hubs across the metro region as possible, particularly where there are currently barriers that passengers face in going from one mode of transport to another.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

7. Will the Deputy Minister provide an update on the work of the Valleys taskforce in Caerphilly? OAQ53415

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. The Valleys taskforce are working closely with partners in Caerphilly, delivering a number of commitments within the 'Our Valleys, Our Future' delivery plan, including the development of an integrated transport hub and strategic master plan, and developing a discovery gateway site as part of the Valleys regional park.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

On 27 November last year, the Cabinet Secretary for local government made a statement on that very delivery plan in this Chamber. He's since been promoted to the back benches—[Laughter.]—and the Deputy Minister is now responsible. With that in mind, one of the things that the Cabinet Secretary promised to deliver was a £25 million capital fund to support seven strategic hubs over the next two years. One of those hubs is in Caerphilly. Does he fully endorse the statement made by the Cabinet Secretary last November and, in particular, that commitment?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Of course we're committed to spending £25 million on the taskforce developing the plans around the hubs. What I'm trying to do is to take stock of the delivery plan and the views of the partners of the best next steps. I've met the taskforce and had a very frank discussion about where we go next. I've met also with AMs representing Valleys constituencies. I'm meeting with more in the coming weeks, and I'm also going to be meeting with all the council leaders. I think as we pass the halfway stage of this Assembly term and as this was a commitment we gave in the last manifesto, it's important that we now try and focus on what we can deliver over the next two years that will make a tangible difference to communities across the Valleys.

In terms of precisely what shape the hubs take and how that money is spent, that's something I'm currently thinking about, and I'd be grateful for the Member's thoughts on where we go next.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, in July last year, the Bevan Foundation expressed concern about the Valleys taskforce's ability to deliver for communities such as Caerphilly. They said that the taskforce's proposals were too small to make a difference, citing a lack of focus, a failure to address the big problems and having too small a vision. This view was echoed by Professor Kevin Morgan, who said,

'The model of development will not deliver even if the targets are rendered more ambitious because Government cannot possibly deliver.'

Those are his words. In the light of these criticisms, has the Minister set clear targets to ensure that the Valleys taskforce delivers tangible benefits for communities such as Caerphilly, please?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, I don't think anybody is under any illusions about the scale of the task ahead of us. There has been over a century of economic decline across many of these communities, and it's going to take a multigenerational approach to tackle the deep underlying causes of that. The Valleys taskforce has performed a really important role over the last couple of years. I pay tribute to my colleague the Assembly Member for Blaenau Gwent for the work he's done. And a lot of it has been under the bonnet within Welsh Government, which is not terribly sexy but is essential for delivering the next stage of reform. The bringing together of the different parts of Government with a focus on the Valleys and getting them to think about how they can deploy programmes in the Valleys to address these projects has been going on with some results, and the master planning I mentioned and the development of integrated strategic transport hubs are examples of something that'll take many years to pay off, but it's work that's happening now, started by Alun Davies, that is going to be essential for the level of change we need to see over the coming decades.

In terms of what we can deliver over the next two years, as I've said in answer to Hefin David, I do think there are some tangibles that we need to focus on. There is a comprehensive set of proposals in the delivery plan, which we're looking at how we can prioritise. I also think that one of the exciting bits of the delivery plan is the work around entrepreneurship. I've been speaking to a number of experts in the last couple of weeks about how we can build upon that, and I'll be holding some workshops in the coming months to see how in particular we can grow businesses in the Valleys through that work.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the appraisal process for new railway stations? OAQ53413

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. The stage 2 assessment process has taken longer than planned in order to ensure that the right candidate stations are taken forward to the next stage, but the exercise will be completed this month, and it will allow me to make an announcement on the stations that will be considered under stage 3.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm very grateful to the Minister for his answer. I'm sure he'll understand that, for example, the residents of Carno in the region that I represent have been a bit frustrated by the continuing delay. I'm very grateful to you for assuring us that the delay is coming to an end. Could you provide a bit of an explanation as to why the delay occurred and why it's taken as long as it has?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes—simply because of the volume of work that's been required to be undertaken during the assessment programme. I think it's important to say that there's no point in moving schemes to a detailed business case level unless we are completely confident that there is potential for them to result in a sound business case, and that's why the work has been so extensive. But it is also worth stating that there are no indications from UK Government, as yet, of any new funding streams to introduce new stations on our railway network. I am still fighting for additional resource to be made available, but it will be down to UK Government to make the money available to Wales.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

The Minister will be aware of my wish to see a new railway station serving Abertillery and the Ebbw Fach valley in my constituency. I share some of the concerns that were outlined by Helen Mary Jones in terms of the process used to make these determinations. The current model appears to me to give a result that will always be biased towards areas of much higher population in the cities of the M4 corridor rather than allow us to take decisions that will enable us to build and develop new stations and new infrastructure in the small towns in the Valleys, and Abertillery is an example of that. Will the Minister consider revisiting the current model and form of assessment to ensure that all of our communities have an opportunity to demonstrate the importance of having stations that will, in the case of Abertillery, serve the whole of the Ebbw Fach valley in my constituency, and to ensure that these are all linked to the new metro and can become hubs for transport and for employment opportunities?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I'd dearly like to change the funding formula and the criteria, but, as the Member is aware, the extent of benefit-cost ratio is an important factor in determining whether the UK Government would fund a new station, because funding of new stations is in the UK Government's hands, and therefore we have to apply the funding formula and the assessment criteria that will ensure that any stations that are put forward, or any proposals that are put forward for new stations, have the best possible opportunity of success when they reach Whitehall. I do appreciate—particularly as a Member representing a rural area, I appreciate that it is a major issue when it comes to delivering improvements in less-populated areas. Until and unless we have devolution of responsibility for rail infrastructure, and with it a fair funding settlement, we'll have to ensure that we work by the UK Government's formula. If we get devolution of this particular set of powers then, of course, rail schemes can be prioritised against a broader range of measures and objectives and they will be in our hands.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

9. Will the Minister confirm when the Caernarfon to Bontnewydd bypass will open? OAQ53411

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I was delighted to mark the beginning of the construction phase on 17 January for this significant infrastructure project in north Wales, and, providing there are no unforeseen issues, construction will be completed by November 2021.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much, and therefore I hope that I won't have to ask that question again in this Chamber. Another aspect of the work, of course, is the impact on the local economy. What work have you as a Government done to ensure that the local workforce and local businesses get the maximum benefit from this important proposal?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, it's £135 million that are being spent on this particular piece of infrastructure. Through the procurement exercise, through agreements with contractors, it's our intention to ensure that local businesses gain maximum opportunity to benefit from the scheme. We're also engaging with the local authority and with Sustrans to ensure that—whether it be on the business side or whether it be in terms of active travel—there are opportunities for as many people and organisations to benefit from the Caernarfon-Bontnewydd bypass as possible.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. As you said, and when you cut the first sod on 17 January, you anticipated completion by autumn 2021. What contractual safeguards have you secured regarding that, and, given the concerns raised by some significant local businesses, when the first two initial preferred routes were announced, that there hadn't been a local business impact assessment, what dialogue have you had with them over potential mitigation measures to minimise any negative impact upon them?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's worth saying that there was extensive consultation that was undertaken as part of the programme of assessment of which route was preferred. The bypass as it is now planned—the 9.7 km of new road—would remove through traffic from a number of communities. Those communities have called for this investment to be made. I do appreciate that some—some—businesses have raised concerns over the adverse impact that could be experienced as a consequence of removing traffic from roads within those communities. However, from what we've been able to ascertain from those businesses during the consultation process, there is insufficient evidence to suggest that those businesses would be severely undermined as a consequence of the bypass being built. I think it is important to reflect on the fact that this particular scheme does have overwhelming support within the area.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Brexit Minister (in respect of his Brexit Minister responsibilities)

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 2 is questions to the Counsel General and Brexit Minister in respect of his Brexit Minister responsibilities, and question 1 is from Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

1. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the implications of Brexit on Pembrokeshire? OAQ53386

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has been considering the implications of Brexit across Wales, and acting to plan and prepare for all eventualities.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Counsel General, you will be aware that the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee published a report in August 2017 on the impact of Brexit on ports here in Wales. One of the recommendations of that report was to ensure that there were constructive discussions taking place between the Welsh Government and their counterparts in Ireland, and, indeed, with the other nations of the European Union. Can you tell us, therefore, what work has now taken place since the publication of that report, particularly on the impact of Brexit on ports in my constituency?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Quite a bit of work has been taking place as regards the risk to ports in Wales generally and in the Member's constituency, as well as in Holyhead and in the north. We’ve been working with the United Kingdom Government and local government and the port operators to ensure that we model the risks to ports generally. And, generally, the ports in Fishguard and Pembroke Dock are likely to have greater resilience than that of Holyhead. Having said that, we are keeping a close eye on this in case the assumptions under those models change.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Constituents have raised concerns with me about the provision of medical supplies in south-west Wales, particularly some very practical things like incontinence pads, but also access to insulin, certain rare radioisotopes that are necessary for some cancer treatments. Can the Brexit Minister update us on the discussions that Welsh Government has had with Hywel Dda health board to ensure that particularly our rural hospitals and some of the smaller hospitals have access to these kinds of products in the event, which, of course, we all devoutly hope will not happen, of a hard Brexit?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, certainly. Of course, there have been discussions with the health boards. The health Minister is in continuous discussions, really, with NHS bodies to ensure that they have preparedness plans in place and to test some of those assumptions. The question that the Member asks relates to the provision of medical devices in particular. As she may know, there's been a specific piece of work undertaken to ascertain supply chains for those devices particular to Wales and to inform the Welsh Government's position about the extent to which it will collaborate and co-operate with the systems that the UK Government is putting in place and the extent to which we need to put our own arrangements in place in relation to supply chain issues here in Wales.

One of the key issues, of course, is to ensure distribution across all parts of Wales, including perhaps in the remoter communities, of some of the sorts of medical devices and consumables that the Member refers to in her question.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

2. Will the Counsel General provide an update on Welsh Government plans for Holyhead port in the event of a no-deal Brexit? OAQ53392

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

In his oral statement of 22 January, the Minister for Economy and Transport detailed our contingency plans for heavy goods vehicles delayed in Holyhead. Welsh Government officials have identified more than one option, and are in discussions with the Roadking truck stop facility, which we are confident will have a positive outcome.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, and I hope you get well soon.

HMRC has now announced transitional plans, which will be in place for a year, where EU goods will be treated as they are now, to minimise disruption in the event of a 'no deal'. What support will the Welsh Government be providing to the port, and how will that be communicated with businesses?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, there are very well established discussions with the port operators and with HMRC, the UK Government and local government, in particular. The Welsh Government recognises the risks around delays to the port in Holyhead. Regardless of the decisions that the UK Government is taking, the Irish Government, as part of the EU, will be imposing the full suite of EU law on traffic through the Irish ports. There have been extensive discussions, as I mentioned, to ascertain—should there be a need for HGV vehicles to be located outside the port, for suitable locations to be identified in relation to that, and those discussions are ongoing.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In his 13 January letter to the First Minister, the Secretary of State for Wales invited the First Minister to attend meetings of the new EU exit preparedness committee, chaired by the Prime Minister, when relevant issues to Wales were on the agenda. They also stated: 'I have asked officials to share with you the experiences around the recent exercises in Kent, and similarly it would be helpful if you were able to share your conclusions around work in Holyhead and the Pembrokeshire ports.' What response, if any, therefore, has the First Minister, or yourself on his behalf, made in response to that request?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

A response has gone to the Secretary of State for Wales, indicating that most of the issues on which an invitation has been extended to the Welsh Government relate to where matters have been devolved to Wales. Obviously, there isn't an equivalent in terms of the work we do here, because we don't deal with reserved matters here, but I know the First Minister has also indicated that he has asked officials to share information on certain projects with the Secretary of State for Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much. I’ve been on the HMRC website today, looking at what would happen in terms of customs arrangements if the UK leaves the European Union without a deal. It’s incredibly complex. It starts by explaining that simplified customs procedures are what is set out. There is nothing simple about this, and, of course, there’s a way of keeping it simple, and that’s to remain within the customs union and the single market. But what steps will the Welsh Government take in a 'no deal' scenario to collaborate with HMRC to ensure that the port of Holyhead doesn’t come to a stop?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member emphasises a very important element, namely that whatever can be done in a 'no deal' situation, the problems in that context would mean that—. We don’t have the relevant actions available to ensure that doesn't happen. Discussions are taking place, as I say, with the UK Government and HMRC on this, based on the modelling of various scenarios and ensuring that steps are taken generally to deal with that situation as best we can. I should say that collaboration with the UK Government in this field has improved over the recent period.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We turn to spokespersons' questions, and the first person this afternoon is the Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, can you tell us whether the Welsh Labour-led Government wants a second referendum on the UK's membership of the EU or not?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government's position is very clear on this.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Is it?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

It is. I may not be able to convey it very loudly today, but—. [Laughter.]

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Was that your second question, I take it? You just said, 'Is it?' Was that your second question?

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

It was a polite gibe, given the polite gibe that came back to me.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Well, perhaps ykeep your polite gibes, then, and I won't be confused as to whether it was a question or not.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I note your comments.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Counsel General.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Our position as a Government—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm sorry; I can't hear.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Our position as a Government is set out in 'Securing Wales' Future'. The kind of deal for a post-Brexit relationship we would like to see is set out in that. If that sort of deal is not available and can't be agreed, then—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm sorry, I can't hear you. I did try these earlier.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

It does work. The floor amplification will work.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I was trying it earlier; I couldn't hear.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Do you want to ask your second question?

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I couldn't hear the answer to the first one.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

If that sort of deal is available, then the Welsh Government recognises that another referendum is a means of breaking that deadlock.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

It would help if Members in the Chamber could keep the noise down. The Counsel General is struggling, and so, if we all can keep quiet, then we'll be able to get through this next set of questions. Darren.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I listened to what you said. I'm still not clear on whether you want a referendum or not. We voted in this Chamber just a couple of weeks ago, and the Welsh Government seemed to support preparations for a second referendum, but it didn't expressly indicate whether there was support for a referendum or not. And I think the situation is such that you should be changing your Labour Party website address to Confused.com because I think lots of people out there find it bizarre that we're in a situation where the Welsh Government votes to prepare for a second referendum without actually demonstrating whether it supports having one or not. That seems to me to be a very strange situation indeed. Now, we know that the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, wrote to the Prime Minister last week and he indicated in that letter that he's abandoned his six undeliverable tests and replaced them with five new demands on Brexit. In his letter, he didn't mention the prospect of a second referendum, and the reason he didn't mention the prospect of a second referendum is because the leader of the opposition isn't prepared to ask for one. Do you accept that it's utterly futile for the Welsh Government to seek to prepare for a second referendum given that your own leader in Westminster isn't prepared to ask for one and there's no prospect of one coming?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the letter from the leader of the opposition described the sort of deal that the Labour Party in Westminster would be prepared to support. And we recommend that the Prime Minister engages fully with the leader of the opposition to see if that sort of deal can emerge from discussions in Parliament. She's failed to do so so far.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

The reality is, of course, that the Labour leadership in Westminster wants out of the EU. Footage was revealed in the last few days of Jeremy Corbyn back in 2010, calling for the EU to be, and I quote, 'defeated', accusing it and the IMF of being, and I quote,

'utterly united in deflation, suppressing the economy and creating unemployment'.

And, of course, in a book, which is currently being serialised in a Sunday newspaper, it's been revealed that the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, and Seumas Milne, Jeremy's Corbyn's closest adviser, both voted to leave the EU. Given this, do you accept that instead of playing politics around a second referendum and preparing for one when there's no prospect of one coming, and no prospect of the Labour frontbench in Westminster calling for one, that you ought to get on with supporting the Prime Minister and supporting the deal that she has negotiated and the changes that are going to be necessary to deliver a deal, with appropriate changes to the backstop?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Whilst I envy the Member's ability to project across the Chamber, I won't take any lessons from him on playing politics on this issue. Our position is completely clear, and the best means of resolving this and avoiding a 'no deal' situation is for the Prime Minister to drop her red lines and seek to achieve a consensus across Parliament on the sorts of the principles that there could be a broadly based coalition, not the narrow coalition she's trying to establish at the moment.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We turn to the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Returning to the question raised by my colleague Helen Mary Jones, has the work that you referred to in identifying the medicines and medical equipment that are at risk of becoming scarce if there were a 'no deal' Brexit been completed? Is that work completed? How many medicines and what medical equipment have you identified on that list? Is it less than the 31 identified in the most recent analysis by the European Medicines Agency, and do you intend to publish that list so that GPs and the public are aware of the possible risks that they may face, so that, as far as possible, they can make contingency arrangements?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

That work is not complete, and that work is taking place jointly between the Welsh Government and other Governments, including the Westminster Government. The work is ongoing at present. What is important is to ensure and be clear with people that they don’t need to behave in any different way at the moment. We are not asking the NHS to respond any differently to GPs, as in giving people longer prescriptions, and we’re not asking pharmacists to do so either. We will be keeping an eye on the situation.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

May I ask the Minister, with just a few weeks to go, isn’t it going to be a cause of concern for people that that work hasn’t been completed? We’ve known for some time that there was a possibility of a no-deal exit, and, with just a few weeks remaining, we still don’t know what goods and medicines we are talking about.

May I also ask him whether he is aware of any contingency plans by the police forces in Wales to put police officers on standby to respond to any civil disputes, or disputes in our ports should there be a 'no deal' Brexit? And if you have had those discussions, could you give some details on the number of officers we are talking about? Do these contingency arrangements include responding to crises in other parts of the UK, including Northern Ireland? Can you tell us whether local authorities, other emergency services and any other public sector bodies are involved in this planning work?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, those organisations are involved in that work, through the local resilience forums, and the four police forces are also involved in those negotiations. As the Member will know, there are already arrangements in place in terms of mutual assistance, and all of this takes places within the civil contingencies framework, which has been established for all kinds of situations. We don’t have any specific intelligence about civil unrest on a wider scale, as it were, but the negotiations and discussions are taking place with local authorities, with the police, with the health service and with other Governments in the United Kingdom.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Could I ask the Minister just to confirm that the police forces in Wales are going to be put on standby in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit, as has been reported, for example, in England and in Scotland? In February of last year, we received confirmation that the Government was considering the concept of free zones, or free ports, if we were to leave the European Union. Can the Minister provide us with an update on that work? And can you tell us which ports, or airports, or other areas, are being considered by you at the moment, and whether you as a Government intend to support any application for a free zone or free port status?

Finally, following reports this afternoon that Ford have told the UK Prime Minister that they intend to shift production from the UK if there were to be a 'no deal' Brexit, can you tell us whether there will be any similar discussion between Welsh Ministers and Ford? And can you also tell us whether the Welsh Government has spoken to each of the 52 anchor companies over the last three months to ask them about the possible impact of Brexit on their businesses?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As regards the free ports, of course, from our point of view as a Government, we want to be in a position where we can have a close relationship with the single market, and within a customs union. And it’s difficult to see how the free ports, or free zones, could exist within that framework. And so we have a strategic challenge in that context.

As regards discussions between Government and the major employers or companies, those discussions are ongoing. I was in that meeting with Ken Skates earlier this week with business representatives—with the economic sector more generally—and the kind of discussions you're alluding to are happening on a regular basis at present.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. We turn to the UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Counsel General will have seen that Olly Robbins, the Government's chief negotiator with the EU, let the cat out of the bag yesterday in Brussels and revealed Theresa May's true intentions. She has always said that she doesn't want to extend article 50 or to have any delay in Britain leaving the EU beyond 29 March. But Olly Robbins said that his task, or the Government's task in the House of Commons over the next few weeks is to get MPs to believe that, in the week beginning at the end of March, the extension is possible, but if they don't vote for the deal then the extension is going to be a long one. So, on the one hand, the Prime Minister is saying that there won't be an extension, but the man actually doing the day-to-day negotiations is saying that their tactic is to extend the membership of Britain in the EU beyond 29 March if MPs don't agree the deal.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Yes, I saw that as well. Our position, as a Government, is that the Prime Minister should request an extension to article 50 at this point. The later that is left, the more risky it becomes and the more challenges there may be to securing that. It seems to us that almost any scenario from now on requires an extension to article 50—an extension to the exit date. Even if a deal was possible at this point, the practical, logistical exercise of getting legislation through Parliament in order to make that happen already takes us in almost any realistic scenario beyond the current exit date.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I'm sure the Counsel General would agree with me that this resolves, ultimately, into a question of trust in Government, which is a vitally important issue. Here we have, on the one hand, the Government's chief negotiator being overheard in private, in circumstances where he didn't know he was being overheard, saying one thing, and the Prime Minister in public denying what he said. Which does he believe is the more credible approach?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm not sure it's for me to speculate on potential discussions within the UK Government between negotiators and the Prime Minister. All I would say is that we've been very clear about the kind of deal that we think should be put before the House of Commons, and I think the Prime Minister should take all the steps she can to make that a reality.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, as the deal that Theresa May has put on the table gives the EU all it wants—the £39 billion, detaching Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK, a continuation of regulatory alignment without a voice or a vote in the EU, and with no unilateral right to leave, which we currently enjoy under article 50—effectively what the Prime Minister is proposing is very largely what the Welsh Labour Government itself wants to see. So, is he encouraged by this confirmation of the Prime Minister's duplicity in negotiating a deal that she claims is a means of exiting the EU whilst knowing it is actually designed to keep the UK indefinitely within it?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm certainly conscious of the limitations of being in the EU without a voice, but I would just say that the deal that the Prime Minister has put forward to the House of Commons falls very short of the kind of deal the Welsh Labour Government, together with Plaid Cymru, has described as the kind of post-Brexit relationship we should have with the European Union. It doesn't, for example, include a permanent customs union; it doesn't, for example, include a single market in services; and it certainly doesn't include the kind of fair movement migration policy that we feel is the best in Wales's interests after Brexit.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I take issue with the Counsel General on much of what he has just said, because, effectively, the basis of the deal that the EU has extorted from the Government is Britain's membership of the customs union and, indeed, the single market in effect because regulatory alignment is part and parcel of it, and there is no end date. So, in those circumstances, then the EU has no incentive to improve its offer because it's got everything it wanted on the table already. So, why should it agree to allow Britain to leave the EU in due course when it's actually got us where it wants us—actually within the EU but without a voice and a vote? And, therefore, that means, in effect, permanent continuation of Britain's membership of the EU—exactly what the Labour party wants to see.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I also believe that seeking renegotiation of the deal with the EU on the basis of the Prime Minister's current red lines is a very, very optimistic strategy on her part. Of course, we know that the EU said that if she moves from the red lines, other options are available on the table, and, once again, I'd encourage the Prime Minister to take that up.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

3. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government on support for car manufacturers in Wales in the event of a no-deal Brexit? OAQ53399

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We recognise the importance of the automotive sector to Wales and continue to press the UK Government to rule out a 'no deal' outcome whilst providing advice on mitigating actions. We are also in very close contact with the Welsh Automotive Forum and UK-wide sector bodies on Brexit.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I do hope that the speculation on an overheard conversation in a Brussels restaurant or bar with Olly Robbins is correct and that, indeed, the Government has ruled out a 'no deal', it just isn't telling us that it has ruled out a 'no deal', because the chief executive of the Society of Motoring Manufacturers and Traders has said, in his words, that a 'no deal'

''would be catastrophic – plants will close; jobs will be lost.'

Today—this morning—Ford have used the same word, 'catastrophic', to describe the impact of a 'no deal' on the UK and says it will do whatever is necessary to protect its interest in Europe. It's declined to speculate on a report that it is planning to move all its jobs—13,000 jobs in the UK, including in Ford Bridgend—out of the UK in the case of a 'no deal'.

Could I ask the Minister what insight has he had from the Prime Minister and from UK Ministers about the scale of support that the UK Government is going to provide for our car manufacturers in the case of a 'no deal' to persuade them to avoid that situation where plants will close, jobs will be lost, families will see the impact right across the UK, including in my constituency of Ogmore?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for raising this question in the Chamber. It goes to the heart, I think, of the challenge that we face with the sort of deal and the sort of negotiations the Prime Minister has been pursuing, and in Parliament. It completely fails to take account of the sorts of risks to our economy that the Member has outlined in his question.

As a Government, we have taken steps to support the sector here in Wales, but in the context of a 'no deal' Brexit, the tariff barriers and the non-tariff barriers that would come in the context of that, could potentially be devastating for significant parts of the sector, and also, if I may say, the supply chain, which stretches right across Wales—I don't think the impact on supply chains has been appreciated as fully as it needs to be as well.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Obviously, we're still waiting with bated breath to know whether Ineos will be bringing its new vehicle to Bridgend, perhaps, rather than Portugal. But it was concerning to hear the other day that, even if this work does come to the UK, it may not be enough to save the Ford plant; it's a plant, of course, that, being Ford, is also affected by the decision of the United States President and what he's doing in America to support industry over there, which is affecting the potential of both steel and car manufacturing here. Can you tell us what work you'll have done with both the economy Minister and the Minister for international relations to identify what other opportunities will be available for car manufacturers in Wales, but, very specifically, what Wales is doing to push what should be our unique selling points about the steel innovation within the Swansea bay city region, for example; our enterprise zones, one of which is dedicated to automotives; and, indeed, just promoting what we're good at when it comes to automotive research? Because it's that that's going to make us attractive to other global partners in due course, despite the threats that we're facing now.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I agree with the characterisation of the threat that the Member describes. I know that the economy Secretary and the Minister for international relations have this as a key priority. The investment that the Government has made, for example, in further upskilling the workforce in some of these companies is a significant dimension to the attraction of businesses to Wales in these sectors, and also in further enabling these companies to compete within their own international networks for resources, which is a key dimension to some of the issues that we face here.

I know that, in terms of the outward-facing strategy of Wales in the future and identifying opportunities for further investment in these sectors, the Minister for international relations has that as a top priority, but I am bound to say that if we end up with the kind of relationship with the single market that it looks like the Prime Minister is prepared to contemplate, that will not strengthen the hand of the Welsh Government or indeed any of these companies in fighting for resources and fighting for opportunities for their workforces.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

4. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language in relation to co-operating with other countries following Brexit? OAQ53418

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm in regular contact with the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language to ensure that my work on pressing for the least economically damaging Brexit fits in closely with her work to develop our international engagement to support the future prosperity of Wales.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

My much-missed friend and colleague Steffan Lewis was a big proponent of closer links between the Celtic nations. Now, Steffan had a vision that greater co-operation with Ireland and Scotland would be beneficial for Wales in a number of different ways, not least economically. In the post-Brexit political landscape that is changing almost every single day, do you see merit in developing such a Celtic alliance? And, for example, has the Welsh Government considered the possibility of holding discussions about invoking strand 3 of the Good Friday agreement, which would allow members of the British-Irish Council to develop bilateral or multilateral arrangements between them? This would allow the establishment of mechanisms to enable consultation, co-operation and joint decision making on matters of mutual interest.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member refers to the British-Irish Council, which is an absolutely essential forum in this regard, and I attended it with the previous First Minister at the Isle of Man last year and saw at first hand how important that forum is and can continue to be in cementing relationships across the UK, yes, in the context of Brexit, but also in terms of future relationships more generally. As I've said in the Chamber previously—and I'll take the opportunity of saying again—we regard these relationships as very important, and in particular in the context of the Irish relationship and the coastal relationship, if I can put it like that, between the west of Wales and the south-east coast of Ireland. Of course, that relationship has benefited significantly from European Union funding through the European co-operation schemes and so forth. We've regarded those things as extremely valuable, as has, I know, the Irish Government. We need to look at cementing a range of relationships, I think, in our future, both among the Celtic nations, but also with other sub-state nations across the rest of Europe. We have memoranda of understanding or action plans already in place with Brittany and with the Basque Country, we're about to embark on a similar set of discussions with the Galicians, and we've developed, in particular with Quebec, for example, a memorandum of understanding around the aerospace sector—

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Catalans?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm sorry?

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Catalans?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

So, just to identify these as issues that we regard as being priority issues for us and the relationships need not be simply with Governments and state Governments but also on a sub-state level, both across Europe and further afield.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Of course, this question isn't just about international relations, it's about the Welsh language as well, and we're not unique or the only country having more than one indigenous language. Can you tell me whether any impact assessments have been done about the effects of Brexit on how we engage with programmes in the EU at the moment on supporting minority languages within a range of countries there, and what that impact's going to be on particular communities here in Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I know that work is under way in relation to that. I'll write to the Member, if I may, in relation to that.FootnoteLink

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the evidence received so far by the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee during its ‘Brexit, trade and customs: implications for Wales’ inquiry? OAQ53394

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We welcome the evidence provided so far, which highlights the risks to the Welsh economy of any greater friction in trade with the EU. Ken Skates, the Minister for Economy and Transport, provided written evidence in October 2018, and we will make a fuller assessment once the inquiry makes its report.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer. I wonder if you read the evidence from representatives of the University of Edinburgh, the Institute for Government and the University of Sussex, where those witnesses expressed considerable reservation on any power for the devolved institutions to have a veto over trade deals, and one of the witnesses expressly warned that that was a potentially dangerous process, which was likely to lead to a great reduction in the number of possible trade deals that would be feasible. Now, we clearly need effective consultation—deep consultation—with a thorough mechanism that if a devolved institution is concerned about implications of a trade deal, that that's raised also in Parliament, and there are many processes that would allow that. That would take us along the lines of mechanisms used, for example, in Canada and Australia. But can you tell me whether you are expressly ruling out this nuclear weapon of somehow having embedded in devolved institutions a power of veto over trade deals?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member's question goes to the heart of how the devolved settlement and the reserved powers interact with each other. Obviously, international relations is reserved, but in order to deliver some of the commitments made in those negotiations and agreements, that will sometimes intersect with devolved competencies in, potentially, a wide range of areas. So, it's fundamental that we reach a settlement and an understanding in relation to these matters that acknowledge the power of the UK Government to negotiate these agreements but also respect the devolution settlement and give this Assembly and Welsh Government a locus in those discussions. As he will know, the Government of Wales Act 2006 already provides that the UK Government can effectively direct changes in the law to comply with negotiations, to comply with agreements reached internationally.

Our view as a Government is that it's essential—given that that is the case—that the views of Wales, the views of this Assembly and the views of Welsh Government are properly engaged and taken fully into account in relation to devolved matters, not just at the eleventh hour, if I can put it like that, but throughout the process of negotiation. It's that sort of deep engagement that we seek, rather than the veto that he refers to in his question.

He will know, of course, that we've called for a joint ministerial committee on international trade, to enable a formal system to be put into place to agree negotiating positions and to resolve the sorts of tensions that will inevitably arise in this area. I'm pleased that UK Government Ministers indicated in the House of Lords recently their intention to create exactly that sort of forum.

In addition to that, a concordat is being developed that will specifically detail how the Department for International Trade and the devolved administrations will work together for future UK trade agreements with third countries after the EU exit, if that becomes a reality.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can I thank the Counsel General for that answer? It's very important that we address the issue of trade. As David Melding highlighted, the evidence from some indicated that there should not be a veto, but in listening to the news that's coming out from the US today—that in fact the US steel producers are encouraging Donald Trump to put a ban on UK steel in any trade deal we do with them, which would have a devastating effect upon the steel industry here in Wales—a trade deal negotiated by London without our involvement could result in implications damaging our Welsh economy, and we'll have to pick the pieces up as a consequence of that.

Do you therefore agree that it is important that this joint ministerial group you're talking about on international trade should actually have teeth within it so that you have to be listened to and not just put in a corner and them thinking they can put you away? It's important the voice of Wales is heard and responded to to ensure that our Welsh economy, our Welsh industries, our Welsh citizens do not suffer as a consequence of a UK deal.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member is right to describe it in that way. This isn't simply about information sharing and so on. What we want is a body that enables these issues to be fully taken into account and the particular dimensions that perhaps apply in Wales to be fully baked into that set of discussions. The sorts of issues that he has identified in his questions go to the heart of the kinds of things that we need to be able to address through that mechanism.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

6. What discussions has the Counsel General held regarding facilitating the efficient movement of goods into Wales post-Brexit? OAQ53400

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I've raised the potential impacts of delays to movement of goods in discussions with UK Ministers. This is obviously an important area in which discussions are also happening internally and with stakeholders here in Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank the Minister for that response. We recognise that the Welsh Government has rightly been focused on mitigating potential impacts at Welsh ports, but isn't it true that Wales, like the rest of the UK, is actually critically dependent on the Calais-Dover route for medicines, food and other supplies? Now, I'm hesitating before I'm asking this question. What discussions has the Minister had with the UK counterpart Chris Grayling? You can understand why I'm hesitating to do this, after the cancellation of the Seaborne contract for £14 million the other day, despite reassurances a month previously that it was all perfectly hunky-dory. But it is essential that we have those, because medicines, food supplies, all those necessities, are critical to Wales, as to the rest of the UK. It's not only the Welsh ports. Is he reassured by the UK Government's preparations?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Clearly, as he indicates in his question, whilst our principal focus is in relation to ports here in Wales, food and medicines and other materials and goods that come to Wales will—you know, that port is perhaps even more important in terms of the volume of traffic and volume of freight that comes through there. It is certainly going to be the case that, particularly in a 'no deal' scenario, there will be severe disruption in Dover and the Dover-Calais route. That, I think, is absolutely clear. Obviously, he mentions the cancellation of the Seaborne contract, and that's incredibly worrying in the context of reassurances. We know that steps are being taken. They're obviously being led by the UK Government. We're in a process of seeking assurance in relation to steps that are being taken, because, clearly, whilst not devolved, and whilst not in Wales, there is a very, very clear interest for the Welsh Government on behalf of the people of Wales in seeking that reassurance.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can I ask the Minister what discussions he's had with the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales with regard to the movement of goods and Brexit?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I haven't myself had those conversations, but I will make sure that I write to the Member with a follow-up in relation to that question specifically.FootnoteLink

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

7. What discussions has the Counsel General had about the urgency of extending the deadline for Article 50 beyond the end of March 2019? OAQ53410

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I have made the Welsh Government's views clear to the UK Government, most recently at last week's meeting of the JMC on EU negotiations. The UK Government must seek an extension to article 50 immediately to put an end to the threats of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal in only seven weeks' time.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

No responsible Government would crash out of the EU without an agreement with our main trading partners. That's the view of a BBC reporter, who's job it is to be impartial, so I think that's well established. The question that arises, though, is: is there sufficient time to deliver the legislation required to extend article 50 at this stage were, by some magic, Mrs May able to deliver a deal that met the approval of the majority in the House of Commons? If not, what are the implications for Wales entering into some sort of dystopian limbo land with regard to really important issues like the regulation of food products, things like electrical goods and, indeed, the environment?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that supplementary question. I referred to a report by the Institute for Government a few weeks ago that describes the challenge in implementing or bringing into law the Bill that is currently in front of the House of Commons in the event that there's no extension sought to the article 50 process. Whatever your view on Brexit, the practical challenges of doing that are absolutely clear, and I repeat the call that the Prime Minister should seek an extension at the earliest possible opportunity.

In relation to the practical point that the Member raises about the impact on Wales of a failure to get that primary legislation over the line in Parliament, I would just say, firstly, that the purpose of the legislative deficiencies programme that we've been undertaking for many, many months at this point is in order to ensure that the statute book remains consistent on the first day after Brexit. So, we've been planning on the basis of a 'no deal' from the outset in relation to that. So, the Member's raised previously with me questions around food standards, as she just has done now—chlorinated chicken and that sort of situation. The purpose of the statutory instruments programme we've had in place is to ensure that, as of day one after exit, EU law applies in Wales as the day before, effectively, but it's incorporated into the law of the United Kingdom. So, from that point of view, that has been the objective throughout, but there will be, if it becomes the case that not all that legislation has been passed by the point at which the UK leaves the European Union, there will need to be a rapid programme of statutory instruments to correct some of those issues in relation to other matters. But the sorts of things that she is asking about in her question have been the sorts of things that the deficiencies programme has been aiming to tackle over the last few months.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

Isn't it also the case that the Minister is seeking an extension of article 50 because he sees it as a step towards blocking Brexit?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I hesitate to say this but—[Interruption.]

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can we listen to the Minister's answer because he's struggling at the best of it? So, if we can be quiet, please.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I hesitate to say this: I didn't catch what the Member asked. So, could you repeat that?

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

I shall ask again and try his catch his answer as well. I asked the Minister: isn't it also the case that he is seeking an extension of article 50 as a step towards blocking Brexit?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

No, it is not the case. I can't be clearer than I have been today. We have been absolutely categorical about the kind of post-Brexit relationship with the European Union the Welsh Government thinks would be in the interests of Wales. I was invited by Darren Millar to take the view that a referendum was preferable to that, and I hope that I was clear then. If the sort of deal can emerge from Parliament that reflects the principles that we have set out in 'Securing Wales' Future', and the principles that the leader of the opposition's letter outlined earlier this week, that is the kind of post-Brexit relationship we would be able to support. If that is not possible, then we fully recognise that the means of breaking that deadlock is another referendum. It's a perfectly pragmatic position.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

8. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the effectiveness of the inter-governmental agreement on the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018? OAQ53401

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The inter-governmental agreement has made the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018 more effective in respecting devolution. Importantly, thus far there have been no clause 12 regulations to restrict devolved competence. In terms of correcting legislation, both the Welsh Government and the UK Government have worked within the spirit of the agreement.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, I’m not sure what your definition of working within the spirit of the agreement is, because I sit in committee after committee listening to the environment Minister, for example, complaining that there has been no collaboration on developing things such as the fisheries Act of the UK and the UK agriculture Act. In written evidence—paragraph after paragraph saying things like:

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

'the provisions relating to Schedule 1 were drafted by parliamentary counsel following instruction from UK Government. Welsh Ministers were not consulted on the instructions',

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

and then going on to complain about the legislation expected of us here in Wales. So, isn’t it now apparent that the experiences of this Government, and the Ministers of this Government, particularly in the context of the two Bills that I referred to, demonstrate that the UK Government has no real desire to collaborate with the devolved administrations in order to develop legislation in this context, and that the agreement, to all intents and purposes, is completely ineffective?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, when it was agreed in the first place, there was a great deal of criticism in this Chamber that the Government had agreed, in principle, to secure this kind of agreement, but the agreement has succeeded. I do not doubt for a moment that there have been examples where we would have wished for greater collaboration. That is evidently clear. Things have improved over the latest period, but there was a suggestion that powers would be reserved. That hasn’t happened. There was a suggestion that powers would be frozen. That hasn’t happened. The United Kingdom Government has confirmed that for the second time. So, the Government’s intention was to ensure that we had the kind of agreement that was practical and would enable us to do work in agreeing legislation and frameworks and so on, where they dealt with the devolved issues, and the agreement has succeeded to do that.

I do not doubt for a moment that there have been examples where, in legislation and so on, we haven’t had our ideal solution. Of course that hasn't happened. But that inter-governmental agreement named in the question by the Member has ensured that powers have been retained here, and that we ask the UK Government only to make amendments when they need to do that, when there is no difference with regard to policy between us and the Westminster Government.

May I also say that there is more than one example of us having succeeded as a Government in ensuring that we have had more discussions? And there are more examples where our agreement is interrogated where the matters have not been devolved, but where they impact on Wales in other ways—so, there are examples of the Governments having gone further than the inter-governmental agreement.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Counsel General.

3. Topical Questions

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 3 is topical questions, and we have one to be answered by the Minister for Housing and Local Government. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of accommodation for people leaving Cardiff Prison in light of the latest report from the Independent Monitoring Board? 278

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, I recognise there are issues in terms of providing effective resettling services for people leaving Her Majesty's Prison Cardiff. Resources within the Community Rehabilitation Company have been a key issue. I want to see an improvement to the standards and capacity of the existing resettlement services, in particular the CRC. Responsibility for this, however, falls to the Ministry of Justice. I acknowledge that local authorities also have a role to play, and we are prioritising this area with additional resources from the homelessness prevention grant.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I appreciate that this issue is not currently a devolved matter, but, nevertheless, we should all be concerned that of the 23 men being released on a particular cold day, only 13 of them had a definite place to sleep that night, and there was clear evidence from them that some of them intended to reoffend in order to get back into prison, and the warmth and food that that provides. Now, of course, we're all aware that the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 removed prisoners from the list of vulnerable people who automatically need to be rehoused. Nevertheless, the argument at the time in committee was that anybody without a home to go to must be seen to be a vulnerable person.

I know that the Prison Advice and Care Trust, which is a voluntary organisation that's running the cafe for families in the prison, is actively recruiting volunteers to meet people who are leaving prison, and take them to Dumballs Road, where the housing options team will receive them, as well as getting to the Department for Work and Pensions to sign on and to see their probation officer. But it's unclear to me—and I don't know whether the Minister's able to reassure us—whether things have now improved since this report was finished, because it only relates to the period up to the end of August, or whether we are still getting men released who the prison service have failed to pinpoint where they need to go in order to get the minimum sum of money, as well as a roof over their head for that night.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, the Member has correctly identified all the issues that we remain very concerned about. The MOJ has long acknowledged that the CRCs are under-resourced, and they have now recently increased resources to them, and that is subsequent to the time period for the report. I'm not sure that I'm in a position to say that that will have solved the issue, but we do know that more resources have gone in since the timescale that the report covered off.

We've also increased the capacity of the Prison Link Cymru service, which increases the capacity in local authorities for prison resettlement officers, and very shortly we'll be jointly funding housing officers within each local delivery unit of the probation service itself. One has literally just happened and the other one is about to happen, so both of those are aimed at addressing many of the issues that Jenny Rathbone mentioned in her contribution.

We know that people who come out of prison have an enormous number of complex things to achieve in a very short period of time, and if they are going into or back into a chaotic lifestyle, then that clearly is very problematic indeed. And so, these are measures that are aimed at making contact before somebody is released from prison, in order to smooth the path and to ensure that the local authority is expecting them, effectively.

We do have some work to do with the local authority—not just in Cardiff, and this report is about Cardiff, but this is an issue for prisoner release everywhere—for the local authority to be sure that they have the right processes in place to make sure that people don't immediately return to a chaotic lifestyle, because we know that that does lead to people thinking they'll be better off in prison, which is not something that anybody ever wants to find themselves in a position to think.

The Member will also know that we have already committed to looking again at the priority need issue, and as I said recently in Plenary, we're about to commission it, and we're expecting that in April of next year.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I think it is a matter for the UK Government and the Welsh Government working together, and a particular difficulty, I think, comes from short sentences, and we've seen an increase in the number of people subjected to short sentences, very often for offences that do not include violence against the person, for instance. Obviously, if we use community punishments, there is a much greater chance of ensuring that the housing situation of the person is not affected. And there is some evidence there's a bit of a cycle where some people are choosing to commit another offence and get back in prison because that's at least a secure roof for them. And this is an appalling dysfunction. It serves no-one any interest whatsoever, and we do need a much better, joined-up approach to this. But at least limiting to the very minimum the number of sentences under one year I think is a good start.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, I completely agree with David Melding; there's a big issue with short prison sentences, which we've rehearsed many times in this Chamber. They aren't long enough to get any kind of programme of rehabilitation or retraining or anything else. They're designed, it seems sometimes, specifically to disrupt the person's family life, work prospects and housing. It's very hard to see what purpose they serve in any regard for anyone, to be honest. So, we do need to work very carefully with, in particular, the Magistrates' Association, actually, in terms of very short sentences, and I think there is a widespread view that that is something that needs to happen with some dispatch. Clearly, the options for community service or community payback schemes or whatever need to be thoroughly explored and made available. But also, of course, we need to prevent people from going into the criminal justice system in the first place, and so having some of the upstream measures I've just talked about in order to divert people away from the criminal justice system in the first place obviously would also be beneficial.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

There were a number of disturbing details contained within the report of the independent monitoring board at HMP Cardiff released last week. For example, I was concerned, as others have mentioned, to hear that going back to prison was more attractive for some inmates than staying at the Huggard centre. Now, it must be disappointing for you to read that the lack of accommodation available to inmates upon release was described as not only inhumane but as a major factor in reoffending. The report calls upon your Government directly to review housing policy as a matter of urgency, as well as to review health service provision towards primary mental health care in prisons. So, will you do that? Clearly, this Government has been failing prisoners more widely, and it's failing society actually, because reoffending is no-one's interests at all. Now, clearly, some of the responsibility for this is not devolved, but there are big responsibilities under your Government. So, what are you going to do about it all?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, well, again, I largely agree with the Member—we certainly do need to improve some of the services. There is a particular concern around the perception around the Huggard centre in particular and we have just actually provided them with funding to improve both security and storage facilities at the Huggard, because the Member will know the detail—people are afraid that their possessions will be stolen while they sleep, and they don't feel the security arrangements are sufficient and so on. So, there is a perception issue as well, because I think—[Interruption.] Yes. Obviously, I personally wouldn't want to go to sleep with all my possessions on the bed in front of me and not know that—you know, somebody who just walks past could help themselves. Clearly, locker systems and so on are essential to anybody for basic human privacy and decency. So, we have provided additional funding to the Huggard centre for that, and we know that night shelters can be daunting and not the right option for large numbers of people. They are the right option for some—they have been very helpful for some people for a pathway out of homelessness. But the Member will know that we've been looking very carefully at funding and increasing trauma-centred pathways and the housing first type options for people so that we get people back into decent, secure accommodation as a first step, rather than having to climb a reward ladder, where you get yourself off the street and then you're rewarded with something else and so on, which has been an approach in the past. I think quite a lot of the thinking—. I've been in this post a very short time, but a lot of the thinking seems to have turned, quite rightly so, to learning from the lived experiences of people who've experienced homelessness about what would have worked for them and why it took them so long to get back to having a decent, secure home. And we are very keen on pursuing that.

Going back, though, specifically to prisoners, it isn't all devolved, but some of it is devolved, and what we're looking to do is to make sure that our local authorities that do have prison populations likely to be discharged into them can work closely with the prison to get a better information system going, so that the person who's coming out of prison will understand what's available for them and the local authority will expect them, because that's a big issue as well, because if they're all released on a Friday afternoon at 5.30 p.m., that's clearly going to be problematic and that clearly has been an issue at Cardiff prison, and I know from my own constituency work that it's an issue at Swansea prison as well. So, we are working very hard to make sure that those systems work better.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 4 on the agenda is the 90-second statements. The first one this afternoon is from Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Sport has a massive part to play in inspiring generations and communities as well as having huge positive impacts on improving mental health. They are just some of the reasons why I want to wish local football team Connah's Quay Nomads from my own constituency all the best for their semi-final match against Edinburgh City in the Irn Bru Cup. The communities of Alyn and Deeside are very proud of what the club has achieved so far, but let's hope we can reach that final in Glasgow and bring the cup home.

Deputy Llywydd, I also want to take this opportunity to extend my best wishes to Newport County AFC in their fifth round FA Cup match against Premier League champions Manchester City. Both matches are taking place this Saturday, so as much as I would like to join colleagues Jayne Bryant and John Griffiths at Rodney Parade, I will be at the Deeside stadium hoping for a Connah's Quay win.

I urge Members and our communities to take part and watch both games as much as possible and however they can.

Deputy Llywydd, from all of us here in the Senedd Chamber: 'Come on, County', 'Come on the Nomads.'

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, it's February, and tomorrow is Valentine's Day, and we'll be awash with love hearts, as everyone will know, but the hearts I want to talk about are the hearts that give us life and to remind everyone that it's Defibruary as well as just February. Automated emergency defibrillators or AEDs can easily be used when someone has suffered a cardiac arrest. People without any medical training can use them to safely give an electrical pulse once the defibrillator detects that a person has an irregular heartbeat that places them in immediate danger. Once someone suffers a cardiac arrest, the chances of survival plummet by 14 per cent every minute that passes without treatment, and outside a hospital setting it's crucial that some treatment is administered as soon as possible.

Thanks to charities like St John Cymru, often present at football grounds actually, Welsh Hearts, Cariad, British Heart Foundation Cymru, the Red Cross, many businesses, sports clubs, councillors and even other individuals—they've all contributed to making sure that there are more defibrillators and more training available within the community, and you may want to tell constituents about Proactive First Aid Solutions. Have a look at their website, as they're offering a free defibrillator and training worth over £1,300 to organisations, community groups or schools. However, it's no good if a defibrillator is locked up or you don't know where they are, so this Defibruary I'm asking you to take a photograph of yourself next to your nearest publicly available defibrillator, share it on social media with the hashtag 'Defibruary' and encourage your constituents to do the same—one step closer to becoming a nation of lifesavers. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The next item is a motion to elect Members to committees. In accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and voting. I take it no Member objects.