Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 20 March 2019

325 contributions from 43 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy and Transport

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the first question is from Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

1. Will the Minister outline the steps the Welsh Government is taking to encourage more local businesses in South Wales West to exploit the power of artificial intelligence? OAQ53610

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. Our economic action plan recognises the crucial role digital technologies will play in the future, with digitisation and innovation featuring as key themes within the calls to action. We continue to engage with business to encourage the adoption of technologies, including artificial intelligence.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Deputy Minister, artificial intelligence and machine learning has the power to transform small businesses, yet the majority of businesses in Wales do not know how to harness its power. Machine learning is not just for large tech companies; it can be utilised by the local cafe, to assist with processing payments, VAT returns, and automating a whole myriad of tasks. With the majority of tools being open source, even down to Welsh language voice data—thanks to Mozilla's Common Voice project—there is a low barrier to entry into the field. What businesses need is pointing in the right direction. What can the Welsh Government do to promote the benefits of artificial intelligence and ensure that we equip future business owners with the skills to exploit technology to assist their businesses?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for the question. The Member is preaching to the converted on this one—I fully recognise the benefits of artificial intelligence, both at the high, cutting-edge end, but also in the more mundane, everyday end of running a business and running organisations. And I've been impressed, since coming into the brief, with the amount of activity that there is going on, not just directed by the Welsh Government, but by universities and by businesses themselves. I think this is a space where we do need to have a discussion about what the role of Government is, because this innovation is happening despite Government in many cases and not because of it. But there are important things the Welsh Government are doing to try and increase the uptake of these technologies, and we're expecting the report of the review by Professor Phil Brown shortly to make us focus on what it is we can do.

But I just want to quote one example to the Member, to assure her that there is good practice existing within her region already, and that's Aurora International Consulting in Port Talbot, who are using AI for construction management. They have developed a project, which was launched last month, to use AI for the risk assessment and method statement analysis, which are now automatically generated, which is not only producing improvements in safety and accuracy, but is saving 95 per cent of the cost of compliance, and they're now looking at how they can roll this out internationally. So, we need to look at how we can apply this domestically, but also how domestic firms can develop this here and export it abroad.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Indeed, staying ahead of the curve in technological innovation is critical for the success of businesses in Wales, and artificial intelligence is one of the emergent battlegrounds in business competition, and, on a global stage, companies like Sony recognise this. But here in south Wales, the award-winning Sony UK technology centre in Pencoed is leading the way in this and many other ways, including tackling the challenges of modern manufacturing and improving processes by using the latest internet-of-things technology, bringing together manufacturing production in a seamless process—into one, seamless operation. Last year, Minister, the AMROC research and development facility in Pencoed was launched, in collaboration with Sony headquarters and other facilities in Japan. And as Steve Dalton, the managing director, said at the time,

'Being chosen to carry out this vital research as a collaborative partner with our headquarters puts Sony UK TEC on the map, not just in Wales, but on the global manufacturing stage, which is something we are rightly proud of...It is also a testament to our highly skilled workforce who have set themselves apart thanks to their unparalleled knowledge and abilities.'

So, I wonder whether the Deputy Minister, or the Minister, or both, would accept an invitation to visit the award-winning Sony UK technology centre to see how an incredible team are putting Wales now at the forefront of world-leading modern manufacturing and technology.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for the question. The Minister has just informed me he has already accepted an invitation to attend the factory; I would also be delighted to come. I'm aware the Member is, of course, a great champion for Sony's presence in Pencoed. I think there's a real exciting opportunity. It's one of the things I want to try and focus on in this portfolio—how we harness the good practice that exists in the public and the private sector. Because we have in south Wales great sources of data richness—in the DVLA, in Companies House, in the Office for National Statistics—in Wales, alongside the example the Member just quoted of Sony, and elsewhere. How can we bring them together to harness that collective power to give Wales some kind of advantage in this field? So, we'd be delighted to come, I'm sure, and I look forward to discussing with the Member further what other opportunities there might be.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

You mentioned earlier, Deputy Minister, what the role of Government is in this, and one of those can be reassurance. I've spoken to internet providers about the 5G cover in the last few months in the context of the Swansea bay city deal, and they make the point that both the private sector and the public sector need to create demand for 5G, such as uses for AI, for them to commit to invest in the technology that's needed. Only yesterday I saw a media piece on how AI can better interpret cancer diagnostic scans more accurately and more quickly than doctors and, of course, health and well-being is one of the main themes of the city deal. With the review we've just had, I think there might be a bit of a risk that it'll knock private sector confidence at a time when we're really looking to maximise a golden opportunity for AI commercialisation. So, how can you reassure those innovators in AI that my region, with its two great universities, is still a good place to invest and commercialise?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

We'll be discussing this further this afternoon, I know, but let's decouple the city deal with the broader agenda of digitisation. The two are not the same thing. One is a means towards an end, and let's focus on the broader end. 5G, of course, at the moment is not something that's being developed at any scale. We've commissioned Innovation Point to give advice to the Welsh Governmenment on how we can capitalise upon it. There are far more mundane things that we can do to make these technologies work. For example, the internet-of-things can be powered by a LoRaWAN network, which is a low-frequency network that is much more commonplace and day-to-day than 5G. So, there are things that we can do now using far less high-tech gadgets than 5G that can really make a difference. So, let's focus on what can be done while we figure out where this goes next, because it's a fast-moving environment.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

2. Will the Minister outline how environmental considerations were taken into account when developing the Welsh Government's economic action plan? OAQ53615

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, of course. The environment has been a critical consideration in the development of the economic action plan. Key objectives of the plan include the drive towards sustainable growth, the need to combat climate change and the promotion of a transition to a cleaner, low-carbon economy. Achieving this will be vital in meeting our obligations under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Just over a fortnight ago, I was invited to speak at the Cardiff Extinction Rebellion event outside Cardiff library. They, as well as the school strikers, are campaigning for the declaration of a climate emergency, among other things, to ensure that all current and future policies are consistent with averting climate change and ecological collapse. I support the campaign aims—climate change is the most severe crisis that we face in the world today.

Minister, economic policy has a big part to play in ensuring that the environment is protected, and this Government's failure to meet carbon emission targets has been described as disappointing by your own side. Energy is a vital part of our economy and fast decarbonisation is essential. Now, there have been various proposals throughout the world for green new deals. Do you accept that your economic plans should have been a green new deal?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, the green new deal as a project title has gained, I think, a lot of traction not just in the UK, but around the world. But, here in Wales, we're already delivering against ambitious plans for sustainable growth, and the economic action plan is very much a new green deal. We are delivering, and I think it's worth the Member recognising some of the detail that's contained within the economic action plan, including our commitment to zero-emissions buses. That demonstrates how we're delivering, including our commitment to 100 per cent renewable energy for the metro service—again, demonstrating our commitment.

I think it's also important to recognise how our investments in business across Wales are contributing to decarbonisation, including, within the economic action plan, the new calls to action, of which, one of just five concerns decarbonisation. Now, I would hope that the Member has expressed her views and ideas on how we combat climate change, drawing on the consultation on the draft climate change adaptation plan, which went out to consultation in December. If the Member hasn't already expressed her views on that, I'm sure there still is an opportunity, albeit after the closing date, to do so. But I am also very pleased, Llywydd, to say that, tomorrow, the First Minister will be launching 'A Low Carbon Wales', our first statutory decarbonisation plan.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

In my region, Cabinet Secretary—or Minister now, as you're called—the Welsh Government is supporting the development plans for a new road from junction 34 to Sycamore Cross in the Vale of Glamorgan. Many residents within that area support road improvements in the existing infrastructure but for the life of them cannot understand why you are proposing to drive viaducts and new roadways across some of the most nature-sensitive areas in the Vale of Glamorgan. Can you join up the dots for me so I can go back to my constituents and understand how, when you take the environmental considerations into place, the Welsh Government is putting resources into a project that potentially would have a devastating impact on the environmental benefits of that particular area?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, can I assure the Member who also supports the M4 relief road, a vital programme the Government is currently considering—that the First Minister is currently considering—? And I should just say that all roads must be assessed. All builds, Llywydd, must be assessed against the latest Welsh transport appraisal guidance process, a process that is supported by the well-being of future generations commissioner, and, of course, programmes such as the one that the Member has identified are open to consultation with the public and I very much hope that members of the public in my colleague's area will submit their views when the consultation takes place.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Now, Trade and Investment Wales recently hailed the 30 per cent lower salary costs in Wales compared with other parts of the UK. Government has since taken down references to lower wages on social media, and so on, and I can fully understand why you'd want to distance yourself from your own mistake, but can I ask what is the mistake that was made here? Was it just that you said this? Because it does appear that at the heart of Government thinking still is a belief that offering low wages is a good thing.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Absolutely not. If I could just remind the Member that I've not been responsible for Trade and Investment Wales since the reshuffle in December, but I can say to the Member that no Ministers approved that tweet. It was unacceptable. It does not represent Ministers' thinking. Indeed, the economic action plan has been designed to drive salary growth and the quality of jobs across Wales, and that's precisely what we're striving to do.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Sadly, of course, the cat was let out of the bag and it was an insult to Welsh workers, of course, to suggest that low wages in Wales was something to be celebrated. The truth, of course, is that wages in Wales have been remaining at too low a level for far too long. I do not believe that reflects well on 20 years of Labour-led Governments. But one tool, certainly, for raising wages in Wales is the push for wider roll-out of the living wage. The public sector is engaging positively. I think councils, led by both my party and yours, have taken positive steps on the roll-out of the living wage, but a strong Welsh economy needs a strong private sector, and the private sector would benefit certainly from having more workers on the living wage. But isn't the truth of the matter that, in the private sector in Wales, we are lagging way behind other parts of the UK when it comes to the implementation of the living wage?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

And can I say that that's precisely why we introduced the economic contract as an integral part of the economic action plan, ensuring that fair work is a key consideration in any decision that's made as to whether a business should secure Welsh Government funding? Of the four criteria in that economic contract, fair work is a key component. The Fair Work Commission is concluding its work at the moment. We'll adopt the recommendations. I am in no doubt that the living wage will have been a key consideration in their work.

But let's just look at the facts concerning the economy since devolution. Let's take employment—it's at record levels. Let's take the employment rate—again, it's at record levels and it increased more quickly in Wales than in the UK over the course of devolution; it's up 9.7 per cent compared to 4.2 per cent. Inactivity in the economy is lower now in Wales than in the UK as a whole—that's a record and it's the first time it's happened. On businesses headquartered in Wales—because lots of people often say we don't have the headquarters—the fact is we've got a record number of businesses established here in Wales with their headquarters here, and, indeed, it's gone up by nearly 15,000 in the last six years alone. The business birth rate is higher in Wales than in the UK as a whole. On business enterprise research and development—because a lot of people often say we're not investing enough in that—actually, between 1995 and 2017, the annual average increase in Wales was 8 per cent, and that's double the average rate across the UK. Exports are up. Household wealth is up. The Welsh economy is undoubtedly up since devolution, and in particular in the last 10 years. That's something that I think Edwina Hart should take recognition for and praise for because she invested a huge amount of time and energy in making sure that we moved away from de-industrialisation by focusing on higher quality work that pays. The job is not over yet, and that's why the economic action plan is so vitally important.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

That was a very long list, and I'm not sure if you were trying to confirm what I was saying, but nowhere on that list was wage levels in Wales. Yes, of course it's welcome that unemployment is falling, but it doesn't show the whole picture. Falls in rates of economic inactivity are to be welcomed, but that doesn't show the whole picture. My questions today relate to wage levels in Wales, and we know that they've been too low for too long, and we have this seeming celebration of low wages in that tweet, which has now been deleted.

But returning to the living wage issue, these are the figures: in Scotland now, there are 3,000 employers who are registered as living wage employers. In England, that number is 4,000. In Wales, the difference, really, is quite stark: we have just 120 companies—the most recent figures that I have here—who are registered as living wage companies. Now, one difference, certainly, between the situation in Wales and Scotland and England is that they have organisations funded in Scotland and England that go out there persuading and encouraging private sector companies to roll out the living wage, and showing them that it would be good for their businesses if they were to become living wage employers.

Is it not time that Welsh Government really invested? And by the way, it is of course welcome that contracts you directly enter into, through procurement in Wales, companies are encouraged in that way, and instructed, in fact, to pay workers the living wage. But what about all the other companies that are not engaged in direct contracts with the Welsh Government? Isn't it time that you invested in organisations such as Citizens UK in England, Poverty Alliance in Scotland to make sure that the message goes out there to companies in Wales that it's good for them, as well as for Welsh workers, that more of them pay the living wage?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I should say, I don't think the Member and I have a difference of view on wage rates: they need to improve, there is no doubt about that. The way that we're going to go about doing it is by rolling out more widely the economic contract as a principle and in practice as a means of driving up the quality of work and remuneration.

Now, the Member identified some vehicles elsewhere that drive the uptake of the living wage. Here in Wales, we've got Business Wales with more than 200,000 businesses within their reach—that's a service that I have personally utilised recently. I've written to all businesses on two occasions regarding Brexit, contacting 200,000, but Business Wales are now acting as the agency for Welsh Government to encourage as many in the private sector as possible to adopt the living wage.

But I do believe, rather than just encouragement, you have to offer something. You have to offer something, and that something is Government funding, and applying the principle of something for something is by far the most effective way of changing behaviours and improving wage rates. And that's what we're seeing in Wales, and that's why household income is up in Wales. But I would accept that more still needs to be done. We started from a terrible base back in the mid-to-late 1990s. We've made huge progress, but through the economic action plan and the economic contract, we will go further still.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Last month, Actica Consulting was commissioned jointly by the UK and the Welsh Governments to undertake a rapid independent-led review of arrangements for the delivery of the £1.3 billion Swansea bay city deal. I'm turning my head now to the Deputy Minister as I can see that's the way the discussion's going. The report made seven recommendations to improve the deliverability of the deal's outcomes, and I wonder, Deputy Minister, if you could provide a summary of your assessment of the report's findings and recommendations.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Gosh, what an opportunity. There is further opportunity later with the urgent question on this very same subject to address those topics, so perhaps I'll give you a brief summary and we can explore it a little further.

This is a jointly commissioned report by the UK and the Welsh Government, and Alun Cairns and I see eye to eye on this matter, at least. There is criticism of all the actors in these two reports, and I think rather than dwelling on that, we need to reset and focus on where we take this from here. But there's a range of very helpful detailed recommendations for all sides about how we can recalibrate this relationship to deliver what we all want it to deliver.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Deputy Minister, and I don't disagree with anything you said. I do want to try and draw out what your initial assessments were of those recommendations and perhaps if you could address that. I did note from reading the report myself that the key recommendations outline the need for action over the next four months. Now, these actions are for the city deal to deliver, but I wonder how you and the Welsh Government are going to support the city deal in delivering on those recommendations.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Certainly, Alun Cairns and I have already met with the leaders of the local authorities on Friday. I had a further meeting on Monday with the Welsh MPs and a meeting this morning with Welsh Assembly Members to let them know what we intend to do next.

Our first priority is to get some momentum back into this project, so we're working closely with the city deal to try and get two of the projects over the line as soon as possible, namely the second phase of Yr Egin in Carmarthen and the waterfront digital district in Swansea. To do that, the onus lies primarily on the city region; they're the ones who have to develop the business case and get it approved by ourselves and by the UK Government. We are committed to working closely with them as partners, not simply as policemen, which is the way the deal has been set up, to try and collaborate and make sure that we get the assurance needed to release the funding for both these projects.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Deputy Minister. I am glad that you and Alun Cairns are working together on this, and I'm pleased that you're updating local Members on issues as well. But I would be grateful if you could also keep all Members updated, perhaps through statements, because we've all got an interest in this. I'm glad that the report does highlight the positive contribution that the deal can make in driving forward the economy of this part of Wales. I'm a believer in the city deal approach and I'm pleased that we're moving towards a position where every part of Wales will be in the footprint of a growth deal.

But, going forward, Minister—and this is perhaps why I asked for all Members to be updated in this regard—how are you going to ensure that the issues that were raised in this report are going to be dealt with with other growth deals as well? What I'm asking, Minister, is that there were issues and challenges outlined with regard to the Swansea bay city deal and I want to ensure that the Government is using its influence to ensure that these same mistakes don't happen in other growth deals. I'm particularly thinking about the mid Wales growth deal, which is emerging, of course.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, a number of points there. We have briefed Members: we issued a very full written statement on Friday, we published both reports and, as I said, the briefing has been put in place and I'm answering questions this afternoon on it. If any Member would like further information, I am more than happy to meet with them to brief them on what we're doing. I think openness is really important on this, which is why we've published the full reports, even though they are critical of all sides.

In terms of the lessons learnt for other projects, this city deal was set up in a way that has not been identical to other city deals, and I think it's been one of the problems that the reports have identified: dealing with it on a project by project basis, rather than giving the city region the autonomy to take a portfolio management approach. And by insisting on the five-case Treasury model for all projects to pass through, they've set a bar that is far higher for local authorities to pass than in conventionally funded projects, either through their own revenue or through the Welsh Government. Some of the local authorities, and the region as a whole, have struggled to have the skills and capacity to be able to go through that rigorous business case model, and that's been one of the problems highlighted in the report. So, in a sense, it's been set up in a way that has made it cumbersome and difficult for them.

How we apply this to the other regions—. We're determined now that the responsibility for the city deals has moved from the Cabinet Office in that policeman role into our department we can take more of a partnership role. The Minister and I are both determined—and we've already met with the chairs of all the city deals to make this point—that we now, under the economic action plan, want to develop regional economic strategies. We want to do that in the spirit of partnership and co-production, and we should take the city deals as the starting point for how, together, we develop a grounded regional strategy for each part of Wales. In doing that, we'll be fully absorbing the lessons from both these reports and from other conversations.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Could the Cabinet Minister update us on the progress of the Blaenau Gwent advanced technology park?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. In terms of the overall Tech Valleys initiative, the Deputy Minister and I are working very closely together to ensure that the national digital exploitation centre is developed as quickly as possible, that we attract more particularly automotive tech companies into the area, and that we utilise the £100 million that was allocated for the Tech Valleys initiative for the best interests of the area.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Minister for his answer. However, since the announcement with regard to the park and to the advanced automotive technology site, some 18 months ago, not a single industrial unit has been built. Will the Minister now give the people of Blaenau Gwent and Ebbw Vale a firm date for the commencement of work, and perhaps even an actual time frame for the creation of jobs at the site?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we've already approved the Rhyd-y-Blew site development. We have approved additional business and light industrial units at The Works in Ebbw Vale. The Techboard refit will begin this year. And I'm pleased to be able to say today that we are ahead of the spending profile for the £100 million Tech Valleys initiative, largely because of the investment in the national digital exploitation centre, which could have gone anywhere in the world—to Singapore, to Germany—but instead, Thales chose Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The spokesperson—

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Again, I thank the Minister for—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, my fault—intervention not necessary.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

That's fine, Llywydd. Again, I thank the Minister for his answer, but following on from the cancellation of the Circuit of Wales, I'm noting that the Ebbw Vale enterprise zone was responsible for just 179 jobs during its seven years of existence. Surely, then, Cabinet Minister, it is time the Welsh Government put in place, as a matter of urgency, the infrastructure—both physical and spatial—to create long-term jobs and prospects in an area that is said to be one of the poorest in Wales and indeed the UK. Following on from this, Cabinet Minister, can you give us an update on car manufacturer, TVR, and its intended occupancy on the site?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I'm pleased to say that TVR are making very great progress in terms of seeking capital support for their project. And in terms of physical infrastructure, the Member is absolutely right: JLL and many others have identified a very urgent need—not just within Ebbw Vale and Blaenau Gwent as a whole, but right across Wales—for industrial units, partly as a consequence of so many of the units that were developed and built in the 1980s reaching the end of their useful life. And so, that's why we're investing a huge proportion of the £100 million in industrial units that are appropriate for the sorts of businesses that want to locate in Tech Valleys. I should also say to the Member, with regard to the enterprise zone, that I'm pleased that we have now transitioned into a new governance structure—the Tech Valleys advisory board—which is looking specifically at the opportunities, not just within the automotive sector, but in the wider tech and digital environment, for jobs to be developed in Blaenau Gwent.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

3. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote the automotive sector? OAQ53630

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we take every opportunity to promote the Welsh automotive sector, both across the UK and abroad, particularly at this challenging time for the industry, as it is vital for the Welsh economy to see it sustained, and indeed in the future, to grow.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Okay. Diolch. Minister, I know you have been a strong advocate of the automotive industrial sector, underscored within the economic action plan, and it's an important industry in Wales that comprises around 150 companies, employing, critically, nearly 19,000 people—13 per cent of the Welsh manufacturing workforce—and generating over £3 billion-worth of revenue, and manufacturing 30 per cent of the 2.7 million engines that are produced in the UK as a whole. So, Minister, what actions are the Welsh Government taking to bolster the automotive industry in Wales as we navigate the uncertain and unprecedented challenges associated with the UK Tory Government Brexit chaos that is deeply harmful to Welsh manufacturing?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Rhianon Passmore for her question and recognise her keen interest in the automotive sector as well? I issued a written statement to Members at the start of March that described the ongoing activity in support of the Welsh automotive sector. Together with the Welsh automotive forum, we are taking forward a number of actions to support car manufacturers across Wales, and, indeed, working very closely with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and other UK Government departments at Westminster to look at opportunities. I think it's worth recognising that whilst this is an incredibly challenging time for the automotive sector in Wales, in the last five years we've been able to help businesses in Wales invest more than £200 million in support of more than 12,000 jobs, as the sector has responded promptly to the renaissance of the UK car sector. However, of course, Brexit poses a major threat to the great strides that have been made in recent years, and that’s why we have called upon the UK Government to broker a deal that will ensure the continued full and unfettered access to the single market.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, an inquiry conducted by the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee has shown that Wales could greatly benefit from the increased use of electric cars. However, the committee expressed concerns that the Welsh Government has been slow in showing leadership in this issue. They went on to say—or, the question, rather, is whether the £2 million recently announced to improve infrastructure for electric car charging points was a large enough funding boost. What is your response to these concerns, Minister, raised by the committee? And what assurances can you give that the Welsh Government’s support is adequate to promote this part of our automotive sectors?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we’ve got a duty to ensure that the public purse only invests in areas where there is not market failure in this regard and that we invest in proper infrastructure. Now, it’s highly likely in the years to come that we will see the roll-out of induction charging, which would, of course, provide the solution for many streets where there are terraced houses. Therefore, it’s essential that we look at what the problem is today, in areas where the market won’t respond, and then we intervene, and that’s exactly what our deal with Plaid Cymru is striving to do.

But I would say that I believe that the Welsh Government and, indeed, the Welsh automotive sector are at the forefront of responding to the opportunities that the move to electric offers. Let’s take Aston Martin Lagonda, for example, who I’m very pleased to say are making Wales their home for the development of electric power driven vehicles. That is something that we should be championing and applauding, and it’s also something that has only come about as a consequence of working so very closely with Welsh Government.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

4. What use has been made by the Welsh Government of plotting the journeys of those commuting to Newport and Cardiff by car as a way of informing future public transport provision? OAQ53618

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'm pleased to be able to tell the Member that we have used mobile phone data to inform transport modelling. We've commissioned Transport for Wales to procure an update to the previous data, supplementing other sources, such as congestion data, traffic flows and public transport passenger counts, and this will help us to understand travel patterns and to develop multimodal interventions across south Wales and, indeed, beyond.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

That’s very interesting, and I’m very glad to hear that we are using the easily available data to track the future transport needs in the area east of Cardiff, between Cardiff and Newport, because, clearly, there is a major congestion problem that we face in both our cities and, at the moment, there is a gap in the metro map north-east and east of Cardiff where we obviously are going to need future provision. And in your answer to Leanne Wood, you said that, obviously, there’s a commitment by the Government to do this. So, having got all this important data from the mobile phones, how exactly are you using this to commission work by Transport for Wales and by the Cardiff capital region to get in place the transport that we need now to get people out of their cars, so they're not poisoning us all with air pollution?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question? I should just say that the mobile phone data is just one source of information that we’ve used to inform our transport modelling work, and not just transport modelling work with regard to road investments and rail, but also with regard to bus services. Other data that we use comes from roadside interviews and, as I said earlier, from public transport passenger surveys and, indeed, from bus and rail ticket data.

We're using it to assess the extendability of the metro and to ensure that investment in extended services is invested in the right place for passengers who could and would use metro services as an alternative to the private car. But we're also using that data to plan future bus services and to ensure that current bus services are meeting the needs of existing passengers.

I should just say, though, in Newport—I know that neither of the local Members are here themselves, but they have relayed to me on numerous occasions the fact that just urging people to move from cars to buses in Newport will not alleviate congestion on the M4, because largely the congestion caused within Newport is not because people are using their private car as an alternative to the bus, it's because they simply can't rely on bus services in many situations, because there's too much congestion within Newport, and indeed there's a belief that people who are currently using the M4 are coming off from the south or the north side of Newport and then using the M4 to get to the other side. That's not the case either, and that's shown by some of the modelling and the data that we've been able to extract.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

I'm glad the Minister has learnt that lesson, and I agree with what he's just said. In terms of Cardiff, I think the south Wales metro offers a great opportunity for increasing public transport use instead of car use as employment is increasingly concentrated at the centre of Cardiff. But for Newport, the employment is disproportionately in business parks strung out along the current M4, and isn't the Minister correct in at least implying that what's really needed to help people to get to work around Newport, whether by car or by bus, is to get on with building that M4 relief road?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

In conjunction with the development of the metro and in ensuring that we also have adequate parkways that can serve both. I think that the investment that we are making at Llanwern and, indeed, on the Cardiff parkway shows that we are determined to meet the needs of motorists and of people who use public transport, and to encourage, wherever and whenever possible, a modal shift.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on the benefits of focusing on the foundational economy? OAQ53627

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Yes. A focus on the foundational economy will support our wider aims for inclusive growth, contribute to place-based economic development and help promote grounded and responsible firms.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Grounded and responsible firms—and those grounded and responsible firms can actually tie into the strategy that Leanne Wood raised earlier of environmental benefit, particularly where they grow locally based, locally sourced supply chains in the foundational sector, which can reduce carbon footprints. We had Redrow housing in our Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee last week and asked them if they'd made any assessment of the impact on local supply chains, and they said, no, they'd made no assessment whatsoever of their impact on local supply chains. Therefore, is it not the case that foundational companies, locally sourced companies, can have a very positive impact on a policy of green growth?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. I must acknowledge the role the Member has played in championing the concept of the foundational economy. I think it's important as well that he's focusing on this aspect of it, which is not an aspect that is often discussed, but I think there is great potential.

So, there are three different pillars to our work on the foundational economy. One is the experimental fund that we've agreed with Plaid Cymru as part of the budget agreement, where we're looking to see if we can increase the amount of money available for that. The second is the growth of grounded firms and filling the missing middle. And the third, then, is mainstreaming through the public sector the lessons from Preston and beyond through procurement, and that's where I think we can make real progress here, because using the public services boards set up under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we can give them a challenge to help this agenda that will give meaning to all the principles and approaches of the future generations Act. We've also set up a sub-group of the ministerial advisory board to challenge us and test us as we develop our thinking in the foundational economy, and we're going to be receiving a paper specifically on environmental growth and biodiversity at our next meeting, to see how we can embed those principles into the work we're doing. I'd welcome the continued support and input and challenge from the Member as we develop this agenda.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

I think that between your answer, Minister, and Hefin David's question you've pretty much touched on all aspects of my knowledge of the foundational economy. At the very end there you mentioned procurement, and it was only the other week in spokesperson's questions that I asked the Minister for Finance and procurement about the valuable role of procurement in developing local supply chains and growing the Welsh foundational economy, if that's a phrase we want to use. So, can you tell us a little bit more, elaborate a little bit more, on the last part of your answer there and how you intend to make sure that the Welsh Government's procurement policy does support those locally based, hopefully green industries that are the industries of now, but also the industries of the future?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Yes, the Minister for Finance and I are working closely together on this. There's a review being carried out of the National Procurement Service and as we look to reshape that, we want to make sure that the principles of the foundational economy are embedded in what comes next, and we're talking to the public services boards about how they can pilot some different approaches, building on the experience of Preston and other areas where there's been—I forget the term they use. It's gone from my head—[Interruption.] Community wealth building—thank you very much—working closely with the Minister as well as the Finance Minister. [Interruption.] Absolutely—seamless. Community wealth building, which is a—. The two terms are used interchangeably—the foundational economy and community wealth building. Community wealth building has a slightly broader focus, because that can focus not just on procurement, but on property and workforce and other aspects that will be different to different areas.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

6. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that a transition to a digital society will have on residents in mid Wales? OAQ53598

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

The investment we have made and continue to make in digital infrastructure means that residents across mid Wales will be able to take full advantage of the opportunities presented by a digital society.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Deputy Minister. The consumer group Which? has recently highlighted the issue of access to cash across Wales and has outlined that Wales lost 3 per cent of its free cash point network between just July and November of last year. And as we transition towards an increasing digital society, people in my rural constituency are being, I feel, left behind on that journey—no more so than in Machynlleth, for example, where we saw the last bank close last year and most of its cash points with it. There now remain two cash points—one inside the Co-op and one inside the local Spar. So, access to cash, I would say, is still absolutely necessary for the thousands of tourists that visit mid Wales each year, and I wonder what action the Welsh Government can take to ensure that we manage these changes to a digital society in a sustainable way? And what can be done by Welsh Government, alongside others as well, I accept, to intervene when it is necessary to protect cash as a payment method as well?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for the question. You've raised a really important issue. It is not restricted just to mid Wales—this is as much an issue in Llanelli as it is Montgomeryshire. This is one of the reasons why the Welsh Government is working with the Scottish Government and the Royal Society of Arts on the development of a community bank, because we recognise the importance that banking facilities still have in communities. And whilst the commercial market has withdrawn from that space, there does need to be a Government intervention to make up for that market failure while society is in transition. So, we're currently working on that now, and we hope, through that, we'll be able to return some community banking facilities to high streets, and I'd be happy to have any ideas that the Member has on what further work we should do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 7 [OAQ53628] was withdrawn. Question 8—David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

8. What action is the Welsh Government taking to regenerate the economy of the Afan Valley? OAQ53624

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Our broad approach to economic development in the Afan valley and across Wales is set out in the economic action plan, but can I just say that I very much welcome the news yesterday concerning planning permission for the Afan valley adventure resort?

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you for that answer, First Minister, and you've taken part of my question already. As you might be aware, the Afan valley has some of the most deprived areas in Wales and its economy has been hit because of loss of jobs and businesses up there. Now, as you rightly point out, I'd like to congratulate the Neath Port Talbot council on its decision to approve the outline application for the Afan valley resort, a project that is going to bring excitement to the community. It's intended to use local businesses and local people in employment. So, it’s going to, hopefully, regenerate the valley in one aspect of it, and the neighbouring Llynfi valley as well. But that project is also based upon an activity-centred resort. One of the biggest activities we can have is cycling, and as you well know, the Afan valley also has the connection between the Rhondda tunnel, which connects both valleys and the Rhondda valley through it. But there’s a big question on ownership of that tunnel still to be resolved so that they can actually seek funding opportunities to actually get that project under way, because that would be a huge attraction linked into the Afan valley resort. Now, Highways England still is the owner of that tunnel. What discussions are you having with both Highways England and the local authorities to take ownership of that tunnel so that we can get on with our project?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I believe that discussions are ongoing. Indeed, they are involving my friend and colleague's officials—the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism. I think, with regard to both the Afan valley adventure resort and the Rhondda tunnel, they both have great potential to be sustainable business opportunities. But, in addition, I am pleased to be able to say to the Member that, since April 2015, the Welsh Government, through Business Wales, has supported almost 1,000 enterprises in Neath Port Talbot. The exact figure is 980. That's generated a combined investment of £7.4 million and £33.8 million in exports and it's created more than 678 new jobs and more than 161 new enterprises. So, our support for my colleague's area is assured, and we will go on working with the supporters and promoters of the Rhondda tunnel and the Afan valley adventure resort in order to make sure that they are viable propositions.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

9. Will the Minister make a statement on the role of the foundational economy in helping to tackle poverty in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ53607

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Yes. The foundational economy has an important role to play in our wider approach to economic development.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. As you know, we still face significant economic challenges in our Valleys communities and the problems caused by poverty remain persistently stubborn in parts of my constituency. While I was interested in the answer that you gave earlier to Hefin David on the foundational economy, I'm interested to know specifically how this might help to deliver the step change in the economic conditions for areas particularly like the upper Rhymney valley, which has been stubbornly resistant to any kind of economic upturn. I'm thinking, for example, of the Welsh Government's work with Caerphilly County Borough Council, where we're investing in the transformation of care in the upper Rhymney valley, and whether you're involved in that work and whether you see that as part of the whole foundational economy transformation that we can look at in those Valleys communities.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. I have been careful to avoid terms like 'transformation' and 'step change' in relation to the foundational economy. I think the foundational economy will help. It will make things better. It'll keep money—existing money—within those communities and stop it leaking out. And it'll allow us to harness the power of public spending in particular to improve the fabric of those communities and the lived experience there. We should be under no illusions about the type of intractable economic problems we face in those valleys, and no single intervention will make a step change in my view. So, I think we should be moderate in the rhetoric we use around that, but I think it can make a real difference.

And what's good about it is we have the powers to do it. It's within the tools we have at our disposal to do this work, and that's why we need to get on and do it. Also, it's important we stitch together existing initiatives. So, we have the Valleys taskforce, and I'm very pleased that Dawn Bowden has accepted my invitation to join the Valleys taskforce to input into its work. We also have the Better Jobs Closer to Home project, and we now have the work going on under the foundational economy—the three different strands that I mentioned—including growing grounded businesses. This is not just a public sector agenda; it's about growing responsible and rooted local firms too. And through bringing all those different strands together—. I had a meeting with officials this morning about how we co-ordinate that work within the Welsh Government to make sure we are joined up, and to do it in partnership with local authorities.

I'm meeting, as part of the Valleys taskforce work, with each of the local authority leaders and I want to use the Valleys taskforce to try and identify existing good practice and scale it up. We say often that best practice is a poor traveller in Wales. This is an opportunity to identify good practice. For example, in RCT, they've themselves been working on bringing abandoned homes back into use, and that's potentially a project we could scale across the Valleys using this approach, and, in doing so in a smart way, utilise local labour, local SMEs—we could potentially look at retrofitting to improve environmental standards and skills as we do it. So, I think this is an exciting agenda and it can make a real impact to our communities.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And, finally, question 10—Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

10. How will the Minister evaluate the work of the Valleys Taskforce? OAQ53622

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

The work of the taskforce will be measured using a range of key indicators, such as employment data and those relating to impacts on health and well-being. Evaluation of key commitments taken forward by the taskforce and their impact on people across the Valleys will also contribute to evaluation.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer. Is he able to tell me whether the taskforce does or does not now include the Aman and the Gwendraeth valleys? The Minister will know, as well as I do, that there's a constant conversation, and sometimes those western valleys can fall off the edge. This is a real concern, obviously, because, while there may be some cultural differences, the social and economic problems at the top of the Aman valley are very similar to what you'd get at the top of the Rhymney valley, for example. So can the Minister tell me how the Amman and Gwendraeth will be included in the Valleys taskforce and how that work specifically will be evaluating and relating to those communities?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Well, by taking the approach that I just mentioned of taking a thematic approach and looking at how we can scale up existing best practice, and also focusing on the foundational economy as part of the Valleys taskforce, I hope we can spread the benefits beyond just the hubs, but right up into all tips of the Valleys and across the broadest breadth of the Valleys. So, for example, through the foundational economy work, it won't be simply limited to the current footprint of the Valleys taskforce. And it's important that the footprint is porous. So, to answer the specific question about the Amman and Gwendraeth Valleys, that is something that I recently asked officials to provide me with advice on. I have a constituency interest in this, so I won't be able to make a final decision on it, but it is something we're going to be clarifying very soon, I hope.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister and Deputy Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Brexit Minister (in respect of his Brexit Minister responsibilities)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next questions are to the Counsel General and Brexit Minister, and the first question is from Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, in regard to—. It was clear, sorry, from this Chamber last week, following—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to ask the question on the order paper, please.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

I've got it.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of Brexit on the arts sector in Islwyn? OAQ53632

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government and its agents are continuously assessing the potential impact and implications of Brexit on all aspects of Welsh society, including the arts and culture, to ensure that no area of Wales, including Islwyn, loses out as a result of the UK leaving the EU.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Thank you. It was clear from this Chamber last week, following the important statement by the Chair of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, that there is a clear and critical consensus in this place and outside of the chaotic stalemate in Westminster that Wales must continue, as promised by those opposite, to receive the very same level of funding that it would have had had the UK remained in the European Union—not a penny less. And we will all monitor this avidly. What discussions, therefore, has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government to reiterate to them the importance of continuing funding for the arts in Islwyn?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that supplementary. I know there are many organisations in her constituency that have benefited from EU funding, including the Blackwood Miners' Institute and other organisations. We've been consistent in our insistence that the UK Government should deliver on its promise that Wales would not lose a penny of the income it receives currently from the EU after we leave, and that's just as true for arts and cultural funding as it is for any other aspect of the current programmes.

It's currently unclear whether, for example, in relation to Creative Europe and other programmes, we will continue as the UK to be eligible for that in the longer term. In the event of a deal, it's possible projects could continue, but it's not at all clear in the context of no deal that there will be access to those programmes in the future. The Welsh Government, of course, provides significant funding to the arts through the Arts Council of Wales, and they've undertaken their own analysis of the impact of Brexit on the arts sectors in Wales. And some of it's about funding, of course, but other aspects of it, equally important in many ways, are around European collaboration, artist mobility, and the impact of tariff and border regulations on cross-border arts and cultural partnerships across the European Union.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

2. Will the Counsel General provide an update on the Welsh Government's preparations for a no-deal Brexit? OAQ53629

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

A 'no deal' Brexit would be catastrophic for Wales, but we are working at full capacity on preparedness, building on the arrangements reported to the Assembly on 22 January. This includes support to organisations from the European transition fund, with an additional £1.7 million for business resilience announced last week.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Counsel General. And, yes, a 'no deal' Brexit would be catastrophic for Wales, which is one of the reasons why I'll be proud to march on Saturday for a people's vote, to try and prevent further catastrophe. [Interruption.] No, no; a people's vote on the Brexit deal, with an option to remain.

As you know, one of my major concerns in relation to Brexit is the impact on our many hundreds of automotive jobs in Torfaen, and I've got absolutely no doubt that the very best option to protect those automotive jobs is for us to remain in the European Union. However, I understand of course that it is prudent to prepare for a 'no deal'. So, with that in mind, can I ask what specific steps you've been taking as a Government not just to work with the likes of Ford and Nissan, but to work with the companies, such as the ones in my constituency, which are working very hard making parts for our automotive companies throughout the European Union?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that supplementary. She has raised this with me a number of times in the Chamber. I know how vital the automotive sector is in her constituency and in other parts of Wales. There is a very, very constant stream of communication—two-way communication—between Welsh Government, the Minister for Economy and Transport and officials with companies who are car producers, but also in the supply chains across Wales. She will know that there has been funding made available for skills training for some of those larger employers in the automotive sector. I took the opportunity of a recent meeting with the UK Government on UK-wide preparedness to make the point that even though we see companies, car producers, in England—for example, Honda in Swindon—making decisions to disinvest, the impact of that sort of decision is felt across the UK, including in Wales, in a number of the supply chains feeding into that company. And there are several companies who are significantly dependent on that sort of supply chain for their business and profitability.

She will have noticed that the UK Government's tariffs announcement in the last week or 10 days in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit, which was described by the Confederation of British Industry and many unions as very, very disappointing, obviously had something specific to say about car component parts. Actually, the focus there needs to be on the non-tariff barriers as well, so that companies in Wales and across the UK can continue to export car components in what are increasingly complex production and supply chains.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and the Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Brexit Minister, who do you agree with when it comes to whether there should be a second referendum on the UK's membership of the EU—the First Minister or the health Minister?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The First Minister was very clear yesterday in the Chamber about the Welsh Government's policy in relation to Brexit. We see two options for the future. One is the kind of deal that we've been describing in 'Securing Wales' Future' for the last more than two years and, failing that, a referendum.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Well, that was a good attempt at a body swerve, but you didn't actually answer the question. You're quite right to say that the First Minister did say that it would be divisive and may not be decisive if there were to be a second referendum, and he made it quite clear that there was no support for a second referendum from the Welsh Government at this current stage. But, of course, that's very different from the pronouncements from the health Minister today, who is now actively campaigning, it seems, for a so-called people's vote, to the extent that he's organising two buses from London to Cardiff. Can you tell us where this leaves the Welsh Government's collective responsibility, whether you think that a Minister who defies the Government's position ought to resign, because, clearly—[Interruption.]—clearly, the health Minister—[Interruption.]—the health Minister may well want to organise buses, but he's not on the same bus as the Welsh Government?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, that's a complete mischaracterisation both of the health Minister's position, the First Minister's discussion yesterday in the Chamber and Welsh Government policy, which is, as I say, completely clear and was made again clear in the Chamber yesterday by the First Minister. We've been very clear that a referendum is one of the options for resolving this. We have also described the kind of deal that we think we should seek and, failing that, a referendum is the way of resolving it. We've called for preparations to be made on that basis. There is no issue here; the First Minister was very clear about Government policy yesterday.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

The First Minister, as I've quite rightly said, is absolutely clear on this issue, but the health Minister seems to not be interested in this issue of collective responsibility. And, frankly, anyone who's not prepared to abide by collective responsibility in any Government ought to resign. [Interruption.] Let me just—[Interruption.] Let me just remind you—[Interruption.] Let me just remind you of the current state of play when it comes to the United Kingdom's departure from the European Union. The UK Parliament has rejected a second referendum, it has rejected 'no deal', and it has rejected very soundly membership of any kind of customs union. There's only one deal that has been negotiated by the European Union: the withdrawal agreement that the Prime Minister has negotiated. That deal delivers on the referendum result, it protects jobs, it protects security arrangements across the EU, and, indeed, it protects the integrity of the United Kingdom. So, when will the Welsh Government wake up, smell the coffee, get behind the Prime Minister, in a team UK approach, in order that we can deliver the Brexit that the people of Wales and the United Kingdom voted for?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Might I give the Member a little bit of advice? If he's going to choose to attack us on the basis of consistency, I suggest he looks a little closer to home. And I think a bit more focus on the national interest, as opposed to simply the party interest, would have meant that this country was not in the position that it is in now, of three years of wasted time, while his Prime Minister was not able to come up with a deal that commands the support of the House of Commons, could command the support of her Cabinet, or puts the Secretary of State for Wales in a position where he can vote consistently with his own voting record—voting for and against no deal. Completely irresponsible.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Minister, do you personally believe that the health Minister was right in calling for the second vote?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, as I've just mentioned, I'm absolutely clear that the Government's policy on this is very clear. The First Minister and the health Minister have responded about this. There is no question about the Government policy on this, as I've articulated a number of times already today.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Minister, we on the Plaid Cymru benches applaud Mr Gething for his bravery, and for being willing to put his job on the line, in order to stand up for what's best for Wales, and for the whole of the UK. Of course, in order for a referendum to be held, or indeed for the First Minister's position of a deal to be done, we will need to extend article 50. Will the Minister tell us how long the Welsh Government believes article 50 should be extended for, and for what purpose?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm glad to see the Member now being very clear about her policy. Plaid Cymru has held three different policies in as many months on this question, so good to have her clarifying her position. What I think is disappointing is that the Prime Minister has sought an extension to the end of June, and is clearly pursuing a strategy that is completely irresponsible, of ploughing on regardless. We have been clear that what should now happen—and I've been clear this morning, in conversations with the UK Government that what needs to happen is for there to be a fundamental change of strategy, so that the Prime Minister seeks a much broader consensus in Parliament, reflecting the kinds of principles that the Welsh Labour Government, and Plaid Cymru, outlined in 'Securing Wales' Future', one which is about cross-party talks, with no red lines. That involves rewriting the political declaration that, if she were to pursue that, would be possible within the current extension time frame that she has left. But I think that, without that change of strategy, the time frame that she has sought in her letter to Donald Tusk today will not lead us to any better situation than we are in today.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Minister, I must say I am at a bit of a loss as to why Welsh Labour contests Assembly elections if the party has no desire to form a coherent policy on the great matter of the day when they're in Government. You'll know that the EU has said it's only willing to grant an extension to article 50 if the purpose for doing so is abundantly clear, and that requires a timescale that makes sense. Now, unless I missed it from your answer, you didn't say exactly how long you think that article 50 should be extended for. The Times has reported that the European Commission is unlikely to accept a short extension, because it would be fraught with legal and political difficulties, and France is unlikely to consent to that, which means that, if Labour were to—as is being reported now—call for a short delay only, that would make crashing out of the EU within 11 days with no deal a very likely outcome.

Minister, your position is illogical, irregular and irresponsible. And I have to wonder whether you are really serious about offering a sensible strategy out of this mess, or whether Labour's real aim here is to implement a scorched-earth strategy, by facilitating a disastrous 'no deal' Brexit as a means of getting Jeremy Corbyn into power. Plaid Cymru is absolutely clear about what should happen now. Article 50 should be extended for 21 months so that a referendum can be held at the end of that period, when we know what that will mean—between whatever deal is negotiated in the meantime, and remaining in the EU. This would avert the impending 'no deal' catastrophe, and allow time to sort out this mess, once and for all, as Mr Gething clearly understands. Yesterday, the First Minister accused the UK Government of providing

'no leadership, no collective responsibility and no control'

over Brexit. Minister, is the same not true of your Government?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I will make the point clear again to the Member: what I said this morning to the UK Government in a telephone conference is that there needs to be a fundamental change in the way the UK Government is approaching this question. What they're doing is completely irresponsible. If 30 June is the extent of the extension, which the EU will consider—. By the way, as we stand here today, it isn't clear that that is even acceptable to the European Union, so let's not be complacent about the prospect of leaving without a deal at the end of next week. I think that is something that we need to remain focused on. But if that is the extent of the extension required, then renegotiation of political declaration is certainly possible in that time frame. And, if it were us doing that, we would be seeking to do that in a way that reflects the principles that her party also signed up to in 'Securing Wales' Future', and which I believe strongly, and the Welsh Government believes that there is a majority for in Parliament and that there is certainly enthusiasm for in the European Union. And, as I have said, and as the Welsh Government has said repeatedly: if that is not possible, then another referendum would be required to break that deadlock.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. As the First Minister knows, the Prime Minister has now formally made an application to the EU to extend Britain's membership of the EU until 30 June, but would he agree with me that the decision to be made is not simply a political one, but also has legal implications as well, and that the advice that the European Commission has received is that, if the UK is allowed to extend its membership beyond 22 May, it will be a legal requirement for Britain, therefore, to take part in the European Parliament elections? And given that 148 Labour constituencies voted to leave in the referendum and only 84 to remain, does he view that prospect with equanimity?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Certainly, the issue around the legal implications of an extension are one of the consideration that I know are live in the minds of European Union partners. Clearly, there is a point at which the constitution of the new Parliament at the end of June/early July, poses very significant change in the environment. And there are concerns, I think, around whether, if the UK was a member beyond that point without having elected Members of the European Parliament, there might be challenge to the constitution of the new Commission and so on, which feels to me like a risk they would be very disinclined to run in practical terms. So, there are very real constraints to the question we've been discussing in the last 10 or 15 minutes around the extension that might be possible.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

What advice has he given to the Welsh Government on this point? Is it his legal opinion that if Britain's membership is extended beyond 22 or 23 May, we will legally be obliged to take part in those European Parliament elections that will be taking place in every other EU member state throughout Europe?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm not answering questions in my capacity as the Counsel General, but I will assert the privilege that I'm inclined not to use usually and I will just remind him that I don't disclose advice that I give to the Welsh Government in relation to this.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Counsel General for a wholly uninformative answer, of course. But just to revert to the question that Lynne Neagle asked earlier on about the effect of a 'no deal' on the automotive industry in her constituency, as she alleged at any rate, has the Counsel General seen that today, in fact, Toyota has announced that it's going to begin producing a new generation of hybrid cars at its factory in Derbyshire next year, despite the global car industry downturn, and that these cars that will be built for Suzuki will also use engines produced at Toyota's Deeside plant in Wales—all despite Brexit, of course? Meanwhile, Ford has also announced that it is cutting 5,000 jobs in Germany, which, of course, is nothing to do with Brexit, and, therefore, what is happening in the world, certainly in the automotive world, is that the tectonic plates are changing and that Europe, as a whole, is going to suffer from its addiction to over-regulation and inward-looking protectionist attitudes, and that if we were outside the common external tariff and the customs regime, we would have the opportunity to exploit the 85 per cent of the global economy that is not part of the European Union and that is expanding, unlike the European Union, which is contracting economically.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, we are living in a global economy, which is shifting very dramatically. That's precisely the point. That's why we think that taking the view that the Member takes, which is crashing out of the European Union with no deal, is particularly catastrophic. At a time when we are all managing global change, seeking the kind of traumatic change that he's advocating for would be completely irresponsible. Where there have—[Interruption.] Where there have been examples of investment, as he points out, it is because of diligent work by the Welsh Government, by the economy Secretary, over a long period of time to ensure that companies understand the level of commitment that the Welsh Government is prepared to make to significant employers in Wales. And that work of preparedness is exactly the kind of work that needs to happen and continue to happen across the UK so that we ensure that the disruptive effects of Brexit are minimised and that, where we can encourage businesses to invest, we are able to do so.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

3. What are the Counsel General's key priorities in the run-up to Brexit? OAQ53597

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government’s priorities remain unchanged. The UK Government must remove the 'no deal' cliff edge and seek the close relationship with the EU that we set out in 'Securing Wales’ Future' with participation in a customs union and the single market together with dynamic alignment with the social, environmental and labour market standards of the European Union.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank the Counsel General for that answer, but I want to turn to another priority. On Question Time on the BBC last week and on Sunday night on the BBC Wales Live programme and in conversations in the streets and the cafes and the pubs and clubs across Wales and with families and neighbours and on anti-social media, there is often a harsher, brutal and sometimes a downright nasty edge to the debate around Brexit. Now we know, as we see here today in the Chamber, that passions run high in such a high-stakes debate, but you can actually now touch and feel the anger from those on all sides of the debate—those who are desperate for Brexit, those who are desperate to avoid a cliff edge, those who are desperate to see a second referendum. It's fair to say that some seem happy to talk up the prospect of civil unrest, which I regard as wholly and probably criminally irresponsible. Be careful what you wish for.

In this country of Wales and in the UK, we resolve these issues through democratic means, because, flawed as all our democracies may be, it's far better than the alternatives of anarchy or dictatorship. So, my question to the Counsel General and, through him, to the whole Welsh Government, is this: whatever the outcome of the coming weeks and months, what can we and what can our Welsh Government do to repair the corrosive fissures that have now opened up in our communities, to heal the damaged relationship between the elected and the electorate and to build again a shared vision for the future of Wales behind which all can unite? Now more than ever is the time and the need for that vision, that ambition and that leadership that can unite all the people of Wales.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I think that's a profoundly important question, if I may say so. I think I reflect that the debates around Brexit often take one of two different paths, don't they? One is the high politics of what's happening in Parliament, what's happening in the European Union; and then the other is the question of preparing for different outcomes and the practical aspects in people's daily lives of what they need to do, if they're running businesses and so on, to look at that. And the piece that's often missing is that piece in the middle that describes the kind of country we want to be at the other end of it, and I think it's incumbent on us all in positions of national prominence and leadership to contribute to that picture of how we want Wales to be after Brexit.

Some of that is about the practical aspect. So, the Government is committing funding to support community cohesion co-ordinators around Wales, who are delivering practical interventions to allay concerns, very often, at this point. There's funding that we've made available to manage anticipation-of-hate-crime initiatives and so on—so, the practical things. But there's also that challenge of national leadership for all of us, isn't there, to make sure that we try and conduct the debate in a way that is respectful and recognises that passions can run high and loyalties run deep but also that we are always focused on making sure that everyone who is living in Wales or who wants to come to Wales recognises that we not only are an inclusive society but that we celebrate that value as a fundamental aspect of what we're about as a nation.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I couldn't agree more with the sentiments that were expressed by the Member for Ogmore. Something none of us wants to see is that situation of civil unrest unfolding. In response to the questions from the Conservative spokesperson, which I thought were very legitimate, in fairness, we can argue about what's going on at the other end of the M4, but this is Assembly question time, and this morning two positions have developed within the Welsh Government, and you are the Brexit Minister, and it is important that we understand which is the position that you as the Brexit Minister are supporting. Are you supporting the position of the First Minister, as laid out yesterday, that a second vote would be divisive, or are you supporting the health Secretary, who says a second vote is what's required, and the Member for Blaenau Gwent calls that 'principled leadership'? Because if you read the press statement that was put out by the health Secretary today, he is goading the First Minister to fire him from the Government because he says he's not sure whether he'll be in the Government or not if he undertakes his act on Saturday. So, can you clarify today who is right—the First Minister or the health Secretary? It's a pretty straightforward question.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

And I've answered it several times, with respect.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

No, you haven't.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The First Minister outlined yesterday Welsh Government policy and I will repeat it again if the Member isn't clear what that is. The health Secretary has said that he supports another referendum. That is part of the Welsh Government's policy position: if we can't get the deal that we've advocated for, then a referendum is the means of breaking that deadlock.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

So, the First Minister's wrong, you say.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

4. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the Minister for Education on the future of standardised qualifications in Europe? OAQ53590

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Minister for Education fully supports the current re-referencing of the credit and qualifications framework for Wales to the European qualifications framework alongside Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, to ensure continued comparability and portability of qualifications, and to facilitate the mobility of learners and jobseekers to and from Wales.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I couldn't agree more. In fact, most of what I was going to say was on that—that we do need to make sure that people have equivalences, that people can move from country to country in order to carry out skilled work and that the qualifications are treated as equal. That is incredibly important. How is the Welsh Government, working with either the Minister for Education or with the Government in Westminster, going to ensure that occurs? I mean, we can't be certain we're going to keep all the geographical food names being protected once we come out of the European Union. We hope it's going to happen; we can't guarantee that we'll keep them. We can't guarantee we're going to keep them if we do deals with the United States of America. But the point I'm trying to make is: how can we guarantee our qualifications—City and Guilds qualifications were considered amongst the best in the world by many, many people—are still considered within Europe as equivalences of the European qualifications?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, at this time, Qualifications Wales is working on a report in relation to this. It will be presented to the Minister for Education, who I know will be making announcements at that point. The publication, I think, of the final report is intended currently to be over the summer. But, in relation to the future arrangements, clearly this is part of the discussions that are ongoing between the Welsh Government and the United Kingdom Government. Clearly, as with many of these things, the fork in the road depends on whether there is a deal or there isn't a deal. Clearly, in the context of a deal, there's a framework that may be continued at least in the short term. In a 'no deal' scenario, you're looking at a question of ensuring compliance with the individual member state requirements in relation to qualification recognition, which I'm sure we would all agree is a scenario we want to be able to avoid for the reasons that underlie the Member's question.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I'd like to come at this from the other way around, if I may, because, at the moment, of course, a qualified teacher coming from the European Union can work here without any further training being necessary, whereas qualified teachers from other parts of the world need to basically retrain. Once we leave the European Union, there's a genuine question then about whether it will be illegal to discriminate against qualified teachers from other countries. I'm wondering what your view of this might be and whether you'll be speaking with the education Minister, perhaps, about the need to review that position, particularly in view of the new curriculum, where, actually, the qualifications of those other overseas teachers may be more relevant than they are at the moment?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

There is obviously a significant piece of work in relation to the qualifications make-up of the public sector workforce across Wales generally, including in the education sector, and that has been the basis of a lot of the representations we've made in the Brexit context particularly to the UK Government and beyond. But this is an area where work is absolutely under way at the moment. I know the Minister for Education is working on these questions at the moment.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

5. Will the Counsel General provide an update on schemes that are nearing completion and are currently in receipt of EU structural funds? OAQ53617

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The delivery period for projects funded through the current EU structural funds programmes ends, as you know, in 2023, so we are around the halfway point in delivering the programmes. As a result, the majority of projects are still under way.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

There is quite some concern about the future of an innovative project, the Ffarm Moelyci project, in my constituency. The Cwm Harry trust are almost two years into a three-year project, which is led by a German university, as part of the INTERREG programme, which includes 11 partners in five European nations. The project has ordered a large biomass processor and is about to spend tens of thousands of pounds in the local economy. As you have said, there was a pledge that projects that have been approved would receive funds should Brexit happen. But Cwm Harry tell me that the whole project in Moelyci is under a cloud because they have been given to understand that those assurances are no longer in place. So, can you give us some clarity about the situation? Are there other projects under threat, and what can you as a Government do to assist?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you for that further question. I know that the Member has written to me regarding that specific question. Officials are looking into the detail of that situation, and I will write back to you shortly about that specifically.

But, in more general terms, in the context of leaving without a deal, the UK Government has offered a guarantee in terms of funding projects that have been confirmed before the end of next year. Therefore, there's an opportunity to spend beyond that towards 2023. So, in principle, if we left without a deal or with an agreement, there shouldn’t be any change within the current arrangements for those who already receive funding within the period of the programmes that have already been approved.

Discussions are happening at the moment between this Government, between the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, and the UK Government regarding the detail of how that guarantee works. On a practical level, one of the things that we are trying to ensure is that the same flexibility relates to this commitment over a period of years as is relevant now. But, in terms of what the Member is requesting specifically, I'm happy to answer the question she has already sent me.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I'm sure that you'll be aware that projects in Pembrokeshire that have been in receipt of European funding are very varied, ranging from tackling unemployment among young people and supporting specialist innovation in small businesses, to infrastructure projects and expanding the tourism industry. It's important that any follow-up funding programmes do allow communities to play a full part in spending decisions. Can the Minister confirm that any new proposals will ensure that funding is targeted at specific areas, or does the Welsh Government have a particular strategy in view to refocus on other aspects of public policy?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thanks to the Member for that question and the acknowledgement that communities across Wales have taken advantage of European funding during our time as Members. The contribution made by these funds to our economy and our society and sectors across Wales has been very important. In terms of what's going to happen in the future, there is a question at the moment regarding the decisions an commitment of the Westminster Government on this. We, as the Member will know, are pressing for a specific commitment that decisions on these sorts of issues will still be taken by a Welsh Government, and that there will no less funding available for that. Despite pressing for that for a while, at every opportunity that we have, those two commitments haven't been given clearly, so that question is still one that we are pushing for.

However, the question of regional support is slightly broader than that—the shared prosperity fund is the name given to it by the Government in Westminster. There are a number of other sources, and the question of what will be a follow-up is still being considered. The Government has established a steering committee under the chairmanship of Huw Irranca-Davies, and that looks at delivery mechanisms for the future—exactly the same sort of question the Member is asking: how can we deliver at a grass-roots level in a different way in the future? Perhaps he also knows that the Government has commissioned a project from the OECD that is looking at how this is happening in other countries and learning from international best practice so that we have evidence, within the structure, for schemes in the future. Part of that work will report this year and another part next year.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

6. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the preparations for Brexit of local government in Wales? OAQ53605

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The First Minister, other Ministers and I met with local government leaders in January to consider how local authorities were preparing for all EU exit scenarios. Ministers and leaders have met again this week. Local authorities must also assess their own preparations. The Wales Audit Office, as the Member will know, has assessed the public sector overall.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I recently wrote to a number of local authorities asking them for details of their Brexit planning, and in particular what assessment they had made of the impact of a 'no deal' Brexit on their spending, service delivery and other related matters. In response, one council told me, and I quote directly, that the short answer is,

'none, at least of any substance'.

Other councils are at a more advanced stage, with cabinets having already received and discussed Brexit reports, as you say. Are you therefore concerned that some local authorities seem to be lagging behind? What monitoring mechanisms have you got in place? At this late stage, what plans have you got to ensure that all local authorities are as prepared as they can be?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, that's a very good question. Of course, the Wales Audit Office indicated that the work that they had done at the back end of last year indicated a degree of variability between local authorities. I must say, I'm not sure that that is the picture now, so I'm concerned to hear that one response that the Member referred to there.

There are a number of challenges here. We have funded, through the EU transition fund made available to the Welsh Local Government Association funding—modest amounts, in all truth—to provide a kind of sharing of best practice and to develop a toolkit so that individual authorities are able to assess for themselves what their readiness is, and that's public domain information in relation to the dashboards that they've put together.

In relation to the individual resources of authorities, the Minister for local government announced last week further funding to all local authorities in Wales to increase their capacity for preparedness for Brexit preparations in general. It's ultimately a question for local authorities to satisfy themselves, of course, but, mindful of what the Wales Audit Office indicated in that report, one of the steps the Government is taking in response to that is to support activities between WLGA and the academy to build capacity for scrutiny of the political decisions being taken in local authorities across Wales. His question was about operations, but it was also about political leadership and political scrutiny. There have been, or there are about to be, roadshow events for authorities in Swansea and in two other locations—I'll remind myself of where the two other locations are—and they are under way at the moment. So, we hope very much that that will raise the capacity of those undertaking scrutiny of political decisions in local government around these decisions.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Perhaps the best de facto example of local government preparation for Brexit in Wales is represented by the north Wales growth deal and north Wales growth bid, based upon funding, direct and indirect from both Governments, but also internal devolution to be equivalent to that devolved from the UK Government to the Northern Powerhouse. It was understood that heads of terms would be agreed between the Governments and the growth board by the end of February, but nothing has been heard publicly since then. Are you able to provide, therefore, an update on the current position in that regard?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I am not, I'm afraid, but I will write to the Member in relation to that.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

7. What discussions has the Counsel General had with counterparts in Ireland about the impact of any Brexit settlement on future trade with Wales? OAQ53619

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I have discussed the importance of maintaining frictionless trade between Wales and Ireland with Ministers from the Republic, including at the last meeting of the British-Irish Council, and I hope very much to be meeting my counterpart in the Irish Government to build upon the existing close relationships between Wales and Ireland.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I read about huge pessimism on both sides of the Irish border, and I'm concerned to probe with you what the impact on our trade with Ireland could be because we know that we export over £1 billion-worth of goods to Ireland, and most Irish exports come through Fishguard, Pembroke and Holyhead to other parts of Europe. So, that is one huge aspect of it that is very difficult to understand how it's all going to work out, given that there's a possibility of 'no deal', a quick-fix deal, a jobs-and-economy deal, or if the public decide not to leave the European Union. It seems to me it's hugely important that with our nearest neighbour we continue to maintain good trade and other relationships with them. I just wondered how difficult that is proving to be, given that London seems to have very little idea of where either Wales or Ireland are.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, underlying the question is the question of uncertainty about what happens next, and plainly that is the overarching context for all that reflection and discussions. I was in Holyhead a few weeks ago, talking to the port authorities there. Obviously, one of the biggest variables in what happens to them after we leave the European Union is the response in Dublin, in the port there, in terms of border infrastructure and checks and so on. That's a significant issue, as the question obviously acknowledges.

There are, of course, other dimensions to this. We saw, as I mentioned in my response to an earlier question, the publication of the UK Government's proposals for tariffs in the event of 'no deal' and they have a dimension that affects trade with Ireland, in relation in particular to beef imports, and there's also, of course, the commitment in that policy document to ensuring that there will be no customs checks on the border with the Republic, which feels to me like it's not a sustainable long-term arrangement in a context where otherwise there isn't a broader customs relationship, and, of course, it poses a potential challenge for us here in Wales. If it is easier to ship goods from the Republic into Northern Ireland without tariffs and from there into Great Britain, that may pose a challenge for the trade route from Ireland directly into Wales. So, I think these dimensions need to be—. There are many unintended consequences to some of these policy decisions, so we're very alive to some of the potential challenges we may face in that context.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

Given reports that the Brexit Protest and Direct Action Group, led by figures involved in the 2000 fuel protests, are threatening to disrupt Irish trade with a go-slow on the A55 this Friday and a blockade of Holyhead and Pembroke Dock on Saturday, what will the Welsh Government do to minimise disruption?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I know that the Minister for Economy and Transport is engaged in this issue already in relation to the concerns the Member has raised.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

8. What discussions has the Welsh Government had regarding arrangements to protect health and care services from the impact of a no-deal Brexit? OAQ53623

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Regular discussions have taken place on all aspects of planning for a potential 'no deal' Brexit, involving Ministers, Welsh Government officials, and health and social care organisation leads. There has also been regular engagement with key partners and Governments across the UK.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his reply. I've got particular concerns about the care workforce and the percentage of staff currently employed in care homes who are citizens of the European Union. Now, of course, they will be permitted to stay, but there are real questions about how welcome they'd feel and whether they will choose to continue to do so, particularly after a 'no deal' Brexit and the potentially hostile environment that Huw Irranca-Davies referred to earlier.

What discussions has the Counsel General had with the Minister for health, both about how we can reassure this section of the workforce that they will continue to be very welcome here in Wales, but also about the potential to recruit from beyond the European Union if we have to, in a more co-ordinated and concerted way than we've done in the past? In the past, we have had different health boards going out to, for example, the Philippines to recruit nurses and competing against each other, which seems to make very little sense. So, can he provide us some reassurance today that there is some long-term thinking going on about how we protect, particularly, the care workforce, both in terms, as I've said, of making those people who are with us now feel welcome, but also thinking about how we may need to replace them if a hard Brexit does happen?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that question. It’s obviously a very important point.

In relation to the social care workforce generally, obviously the make-up of that workforce has been one of the issues that the Minister for Health and Social Services has been very focused on. We've undertaken a piece of research to identify what the likely levels of employment are within the sector from the European Union, and, obviously, they are reasonably significant. It's one of the sectors where, in my discussions directly with the chair of the Migration Advisory Committee, and in the formal representations that the Government will be making to the UK Government, we've identified the issue of the social care workforce as one that requires a particular approach in terms of protection through the migration policy. The current proposals in the White Paper that the Government has brought forward do nothing to support the social care workforce, and that’s important from the point of view of the workforce, but it’s also important from the point of view of the sustainability of the workforce and, therefore, the provision of services to people who are often in a very vulnerable position.

There are also discussions going on in relation to how best to ensure that social care workers are able to understand the mechanism for acquiring settled status under the UK Government's proposal. And we've also made funding available to the Association of Directors of Social Services to look at the planning for resilience in the workforce more generally in the longer term.

On the question of making the social care workforce from the EU feel welcome, absolutely, that’s a vitally important dimension to all of this, and I hope that all of us will take the opportunity of making it absolutely clear to workers in all parts of our public services who live here and are from the European Union that they are, and continue to be, welcome as an important part of Welsh public services and Welsh society.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

And finally, question 9, David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

9. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the capacity of the Welsh Government to manage a no-deal exit from the EU? OAQ53626

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Whilst the effects of leaving without a deal cannot be completely mitigated, we are doing all that we can to prepare for this eventuality. Staff across the organisation have been told to prioritise this work, and we have filled 127 additional Brexit-related posts, with a further 53 in train.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you for that answer, Counsel General.

Now, whilst we're here, it's obviously nine days away from the legal date on which we are supposed to be leaving the EU, yet we don't know whether we'll be leaving the EU with a deal, with no deal, or maybe an extension. And I'm sure that the chaos we are seeing comes from a shambolic Government in Westminster. But you, as a Welsh Government, have to manage that chaos here in Wales. Now, you've just identified that you've got 124 extras, with 50-odd in train beyond that; is that going to be enough for next Friday if we go without a deal? What implications does that have for other business of the Welsh Government? Can we ensure that we can deliver the services to the people of Wales that they need and continue to want and desire following Brexit without a deal? Because, unfortunately, the way we are going, the shambles we are seeing, that’s a very strong possibility.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member invites me to say, 'Don't worry, it'll be fine on the day', and I'm not going to say that, because that's not the position of level of reassurance that we can give.

In relation to preparedness generally, we've been careful to be specific about what we think the situations are in relation to different levels of preparedness, because I think that's the most helpful way of giving people in Wales an understanding of what we are doing, what the UK Government are doing, and what our expectations are, for example, if you're a business owner. So, we've tried to be very specific in relation to the advice that we are giving.

On the question of the resources of Government to deal with this, clearly the resources of Government are stretched thin in relation to preparing for Brexit. That is true in Wales; it’s true in all parts of the UK, because this is an additional burden that, certainly here in Wales, we don't welcome. Within the context of doing that, we have been recruiting, as he will know in his capacity as Chair of the relevant committee, significant numbers—obviously, significantly less than is happening across the UK, for reasons that are obvious. Does that involve taking people from doing other important things? Yes. Would we prefer not to have to do that? Yes. But, in the context that we are in, until we know that 'no deal' is not a possible outcome—and we are certainly nowhere near that as I stand here today—we are going to have to continue deploying the resources that we have to make sure that, where we can mitigate the worst excesses of 'no deal', we can try and do that. But I just want to be clear for the Member that we have been categorical that it is not possible to mitigate for the impact of 'no deal' either in the short term or in the long term, fully.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Counsel General. Diolch.

3. Topical Questions

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 3 is topical questions. The first of the topical questions today will be answered by the Minister for Economy and Transport. Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of the collapse of construction company Dawnus, which has gone into administration? 288

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, thank you. This is clearly very disappointing news for the company, for the workforce, their clients and the wider Welsh construction supply chain. We stand ready to do all that we can to support the workers through the work of a taskforce that I have asked to be established immediately.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I thank you for that answer, Minister, but my immediate concern is for the workforce and for their families, and for those left out of pocket throughout the supply chain. It must be, indeed, an extremely worrying time for them. There is also a need to ensure that any apprentices that are caught up in this are supported, and the Construction Industry Training Board have indicated that they are willing to help, and have helped in other situations like this.

When a large company like Dawnus does go into administration, it puts smaller, local businesses at risk, potentially having a devastating impact on those local economies. We know that they directly employ 700 people, and that's a large number in and of itself, but there is a much larger potential number within the locality, as I've just described. These are not just numbers of people, but real families being affected by this collapse. So I'm keen to know what support is available from Welsh Government to all the companies and the workers who've been affected by this worrying news.

Also, the other side of this is that, in my constituency, Mid and West Wales, Dawnus were contracted to build a 360-pupil English-medium primary school, a 150-pupil Welsh-medium primary school in Welshpool, and the replacement for Ysgol Bro Hyddgen in Machynlleth. The Welshpool English-medium school is scheduled for completion this September. But they were also contracted within my area to deliver the £1.1 million Chimneys link road and development scheme in Fishguard, and that is now on hold. So, Minister, could I ask what discussions Welsh Government are having with the industry to ensure that these projects that I've mentioned in Mid and West Wales, and the others that are contracted to Dawnus, are going to be carried on successfully, and that those people's minds, those expecting those projects to be delivered, and to be employed within them, are put at ease?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Joyce Watson for her questions and join her in expressing my deep sympathies for the many people, the many families that are being affected by this very distressing news, and who will be assisted by the taskforce? We have a proven track record through convening taskforces for Virgin, for Schaeffler, for Tesco and other businesses that have lost human resources, and I'm confident that we will be able to find many employment opportunities elsewhere in the sector.

The Member raised a number of important points, including the future of the apprentices and businesses that were employed in various projects through the supply chain. Now, I can confirm that we have engaged with the Construction Industry Training Board and will work with them to identify new placements for as many of the apprentices as possible, so that they can complete their frameworks and go on to secure sustainable long-term employment within the sector.

The Member also made the very important point that this is a challenge that does not affect just the south of Wales, but also mid Wales and north Wales, urban Wales and rural Wales as well. Therefore, the challenge is a national one and that's why the taskforce will be viewing this through the prism of interventions across the country if necessary.

We'll be working with the administrator and also with partner agencies and the private sector to ensure the best possible outcome for all affected. We'll also be working with local government over the many schools programmes, the flood defence schemes and infrastructure projects to ensure that the public purse is protected and that as many of the projects as possible can be taken forward through subcontractors or through alternative arrangements. This is a very distressing time for many businesses and many families, but the Welsh Government and, of course, the Development Bank of Wales, stand ready to assist wherever we can.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that last comment, because one of the questions I was going to ask, of course, was that this is different from Tesco or Virgin—this is a company in which the Welsh Government has invested, and there's a question, then, about, by enabling Dawnus to exist for another two or three years, whether you've allowed certain contracts to be entered into, by the very fact that the company was allowed to exist to enter into those contracts.

But I want to start with some questions about the Welsh Government's loan and the £1.5 million that's outstanding on that. We're talking about administration here, not liquidation, so this is going to take some time and a court order before you can get your money out of this. Can you confirm that it is a fixed charge that you've got and not a floating charge, and the value of the assets against which that is secured? Just to give us a rough idea of how much is available for other creditors once you and the banks have been paid.

In our earlier written statement, you referred to Dawnus's weakening cash position. Do we know how much money the company is owed by its debtors? And why in particular the confidence that was shown in them in 2016 in a recovery plan has proven unfounded? Because, presumably, that relied, to a certain degree, on any debts that were outstanding at that point being paid swiftly and any future debts being paid swiftly. I think, probably, an element of the confidence shown in this company by other public bodies, such as councils, will be partly based on the green light that you showed Dawnus back in 2016, and I'm wondering whether you agree that that is the case or whether every public body should rely 100 per cent on their own due diligence, rather than look to Welsh Government to be giving indications of confidence in particular companies.

Can you confirm, in particular, that the Welsh European Funding Office funding for the Kingsway development in Swansea is unaffected? I know the council is looking for a new contractor, obviously, to take over that work, but if that funding is at risk in any way, then that is pretty serious.

And then, my final question, which was about the workforce and supply chains: you mentioned that the development bank could step in if necessary, but will you be asking the supply chain companies to be looking to their own banks first, or is this an open offer, effectively, for those companies with cash flow-only problems? I'm not asking you to save them if they're not sustainable companies, but is that an open offer or is it an alternative offer to what the banks may be prepared to do?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Thank you. Can I thank the Member for her questions? In all fairness to those subcontractor businesses engaged through the supply chain, I do believe that many of them have already engaged with their respective banks, but the Development Bank of Wales will be working very closely with Welsh Government through the taskforce to identify any additional need that might be required.

I can't comment on other debtors at present, but it's my understanding, with regard to the specific question about the Kingsway project, that the WEFO funding is unaffected. However, I will be seeking a guarantee of that, and I will, clearly, update Members once I have confirmation.

With regard to the investment through the £3.5 million commercial loan by Welsh Government, that was matched by £3.5 million from the business's own bank, under the same terms and conditions, and also the same level of security and support was provided in order to help the business and its employees, as I've already stated, through a very difficult period concerning its cash flow. Now, to date, we've received £2 million back, and we're confident that the terms of the loan will see outstanding moneys repaid in due course. But I think it's absolutely right that, at this moment in time, the focus of our attention should be on the employees and on subcontractors and suppliers who, undoubtedly, are being badly affected by the developments at Dawnus. So, we are clearly focusing our attention on ensuring that the impacts of the company's demise are minimised, both in terms of local communities and the national economy. I think it's important to say that, with regard to previous Welsh Government support—and I make no apology for supporting the company in the past to ensure that they could deliver projects and to ensure that they could go on employing 700 people—extensive and intensive due diligence is carried out before contracts are signed, and I am very confident that those contracts that were signed were done so in good faith and in the belief that the company could deliver them through to completion.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I won't repeat the questions that have been raised already, but I reiterate that I share the concerns that have been raised about the workforce and so on. This was a company that was very, very important, of course, in Wales. A proud Welsh company, a strong Welsh name—'dawnus' is Welsh for 'talented', reflecting the real talent that there was within the company. It is a call for all the help to those talents within the company, and those associated with it as subcontractors, that is foremost in our minds today. Concerns have been raised by my colleagues Bethan Jenkins and Dai Lloyd in the south-west of Wales where the company was based, but the concerns, you're right, are Wales-wide, and Dawnus was involved in some key contracts in my constituency as well.

So, we are concerned about the directly employed staff, and the subcontractors are owed millions of pounds, of course. I've spoken with one, a really good company in my constituency, who's owed £175,000. For a small company, that is a lot of money. If you could explain, either now or in coming days and weeks, all the steps that are being taken to maximise the money that can be repaid to those subcontractors, and also the work being done to ensure that those subcontractors are supported in getting involved in continuing with the projects that Dawnus was involved in in various parts of Wales—. Another key question for me moving forward is what is being done to look at the possibility of allowing TUPE—Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981—transfer for those workers that were directly employed with Dawnus to contractors that will be carrying on the work on various contracts in various parts of Wales, because, of course, that would give a degree a protection to those workers.

Just a couple of key questions looking back: you have confirmed that you were involved in working with the bank and Dawnus itself once it had become known that the company was facing some difficulties. Could you perhaps describe what happened towards the end, and why, if it was not possible to share more information that could have given various public bodies and others a little bit more preparation, that was not done? Also, perhaps you could confirm whether there was an investor that actually was ready and had been willing to step in to make an investment in Dawnus that perhaps could have saved the company.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question? My understanding is that there may have been an investor that was prepared to step in. However, in spite of all consideration and, I think it's fair to say, everybody's best efforts, Dawnus nonetheless was destined for demise. Our efforts must now focus on how we ensure that the businesses that could be affected by this event are supported through a very turbulent period and how we ensure that as many staff members get alternative work as possible.

The question of TUPE transfers will be dealt with by the taskforce. In terms of some of those contracts and some of those businesses that could be directly affected by the demise of Dawnus, initial analysis of supply chain creditors indicates that there are in the region of 455 Welsh suppliers affected. The total value due to the Welsh supply chain is in the region of £6 million. Officials will continue to monitor and to review as fresh information is received from the administrator. But it does go to demonstrate why it's so vitally important the development bank is integral to the work of the taskforce moving forward.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Dawnus was actually in my constituency, in Swansea vale. It was a medium-sized construction business, and if there's one thing that we need in Wales it's medium-sized private businesses. Employing 700 made it, in Swansea East terms at least, a large employer. And if you look at the list of companies in Wales, it was in the top 50 in the Western Mail list up until the last list. It's going to be a devastating blow to the economy of Swansea East, but I am aware of the support the Welsh Government has given and, as you know, I approached you over 12 months ago asking for that level of support, and I'm very pleased that it was provided, even if it eventually proved not to be enough. I think it really is important that we do try and protect medium-sized, homegrown Welsh companies, and you couldn't get more Welsh than Dawnus.

I would like to associate myself with everything that Joyce Watson said about the workforce, and I won't repeat it. I've got two questions. You talked about giving support; will the same level of support as is currently being provided to Virgin Media, and which was provided to Tesco staff, be provided to the current Dawnus staff? I know it's not as simple as everybody being on one site, but wherever they are, they'll still need that support. And was Dawnus finally paid all the money it was owed for the work it did in Sierra Leone?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I can't comment on the last point that the Member raises, but I'd be happy to write to him once the information is available so that we can answer that question, but I can assure the Member that the same level of support through the taskforce will be afforded to people affected by this latest turn of events at Dawnus that was offered to staff members at Tesco, at Virgin and other companies that have been supported by various taskforces.

Now, the Member makes a really important point, and I think we should just recognise for a moment that the company was one of our proudest Welsh medium-sized enterprises and for that reason, again, I make no apology for all of the effort that went into keeping the company operating strongly. But today is an incredibly sad time for those who were employed by Dawnus and I'm sure everybody's thoughts are with the employees and with, indeed, companies in the supply chain.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The second topical question this afternoon is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport. Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

2. Will the Minister provide an update on the Swansea bay city deal following the publication of the Swansea bay city deal independent review? 290

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. The report provides a solid foundation upon which the Welsh and UK Governments, and the regional partners, can move forward quickly with the delivery of the city deal. We will work closely with the leaders of each local authority to consider how the recommendations can be implemented.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that answer. I'm sure you'll remember, it's almost two years now since the original announcement was made, and you'll recall that other Members, including Mike Hedges and me, have stood up a number of times in this Chamber to say how difficult it has been and we've found it as Assembly Members—the relevant Assembly Members, with an interest in this—to get any meaningful dialogue with members of what was then the shadow board. That's not exactly in keeping with the core principles of the delivery of good governance in local government framework. So, I very much welcome this review, which has flushed out some of the worries that we, the interested Assembly Members, were hearing about for some time but had no realistic path of clarifying or, indeed, challenging. We all want this deal to work, so this has been a very helpful document today.

I welcome your earlier confirmation that you believe that part 2 of Yr Egin and the Swansea digital waterfront project are almost over the line, and hoping that Governments will now work together to make sure that that happens. I wonder if you can give us any sense of a timeline that will be a step in reversing any loss of confidence that has happened in portfolio projects recently—not necessarily related to those two projects.

My main questions, however, are on governance, and, again, the delay in getting a coherent governance model together has been the subject of some questions in this Chamber. It looks like there is still some fault with that model, with the four council leaders sitting on both the strategy board as well as the joint committee without the necessary Chinese walls and checks and balances to protect them, actually, against accusations of conflict of interest. It looks as if the lead council, Carmarthenshire, doesn't have the capacity to handle the work, so I wonder if you could tell us what you'll be expecting from the new director, who'll be appointed to assume this leadership role. Will this be an independent director? What sort of background and experience will you be expecting him or her to have? And can you confirm that neither Government will take part in the appointment process for that—it will be for the board to do that? And also, bearing in mind what you mentioned in reply to questions from Russell George earlier, about not all models are the same, can you confirm why it is that you've chosen a sort of Cardiff model, with a director, in order to try and solve the problem that's been identified in the review? I'm not saying it's a bad decision, but I'm quite interested to have your answer to that.

Recommendation 3 says that a best practice integrated assurance and approval plan should be put in place pretty quickly. So, I'd like to know what the risk and assurance processes are that are currently in place. Because, coincidentally, an internal review seems to have been done—presumably at the instruction of the board. Because we are talking about four council leaders here; the concept of risk and assurance shouldn't be new to them. So, what reasons were given to those who conducted the independent review for the failure to have—well, what looks like a failure to have—a sensible risk and assurance process in place at the moment? And, in particular, what process was used to appoint the strategy board members and how was the risk of that assessed? Why is there a lack of clarity about how much the councils will need to borrow? What were the problems identified in preparing a financial plan? One of the reasons the Governments haven't signed off the implementation plan is because there is no financial plan. And the role of the private sector—they're the main funders in this, after all—I think that remains underplayed and of minimal influence, except, ostensibly, in the one place where we've had a question about conflict of interest. If you can use those example questions to explain your views on the current system for risk and assurance, I'd be most grateful. Thank you.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for those questions. A number of them, I think, are best directed towards the city region. This, after all, is a local project. This is not a project the Welsh Government has sponsored. This is a project that's come from the region, and the Welsh Government and the UK Government, jointly, are funding this, and they've put in place a series of assurances that the money is going to be well spent and the strategy is going to be adhered to. So, many of the detailed questions you ask about appointing the strategy board and the financial plan and so on are ones that I'm not in a position to answer; those are the questions that the city deal themselves are to answer. Because, if we want genuinely place-based decision making, then the responsibility and the accountability must remain locally. Although, until now, it's been very different, I think our role does need to change, as I indicated earlier, into more of a partnership and less of a policeman role. But the city deal as currently constituted, as designed by the UK Government, does not give us that role explicitly.

In terms of the timeline, it's our very clear hope that we can get these projects over the line. But, as I've said, this has to come from the city region themselves. Alun Cairns and I have both expressed our hope to the council leaders—and we met them last week—that we would like a pipeline of projects, with momentum. So, if we can get the first two over the line no later than the end of April, we'd like to get more before the summer and before the end of the year. However, it is worth noting that the independent review that the Welsh Government and the UK Government jointly commissioned put all the projects at red risk. Now, this is a very significant finding, placed right at the end of the annex of the report, but it certainly took my eye. So, I don't think we can responsibly put into stone any firm deadlines until we can be assured that the lessons can be learned by the joint board and that the cases are going to be robust enough to meet the tests that we have in place.

You asked about the role of the director and who will appoint that, and the role of the Welsh Government. And you're quite right—this is a local appointment; this is not a role for the Welsh Government to be involved in. I'd expect and hope that they will be advertising that role, and I think the person they get into that role is crucially important. The independent review makes it clear that this should be somebody of equal status and standing to a chief executive in order to provide a challenge and scrutiny. And, to be fair, of the three reports that have now been published—the Wales Audit Office report, the Welsh Government-UK Government report, and then the independent report, jointly commissioned by the four local authorities and carried out by their own internal auditors—that I think is the most rigorous of the reports and the most unsparing in its criticism. And I think some credit needs to go to the city region that they themselves have commissioned that—it's the public sector who have carried out that, not some private sector consultants—and they've published it. So, they've been completely open in the criticisms they've made of themselves, and it's not a comfortable read, but I think, to give them due credit, they have done that and it's now for them to fully absorb the lessons from that report and to implement them. So, I hope I've answered the questions that the Member has raised.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I won't go over ground already covered, but, as I mentioned yesterday during the business statement, from my perspective it is particularly worrying that the first recommendation within this independent review looks to encourage, and I quote, 'direct and regular face-to-face' talks between the region and both the UK and Welsh Governments. These are basics, aren't they? Are you disappointed that it took a review team to tell you that? As it stands, the city deal structure and relationship between the region and UK and Welsh Governments is not designed to deliver. It is far too bureaucratic, as we've heard, and it does seem adversarial at times. Do you agree with that assessment as well?

As you've said, what we need to see now is far more of a partnership approach of both Governments working with the city deal team to work through any of the issues, because we've heard—I've certainly heard—from local authority leaders in the region about their frustrations from their side. The city deal team have consistently called for the release of UK and Welsh Government money for the two most advanced projects: the Swansea waterfront development and Yr Egin development in Carmarthen. The review echoes that sentiment, recommending that it should happen immediately.

We need to see Government funding flow, therefore, as soon as possible. It is simply a farcical situation whereby Yr Egin development in Carmarthen has already been built, has been officially opened and is nearly fully occupied, yet the UK and Welsh Governments have still not released the funding. The funding that was meant to be front-loading now is in danger of not even back-loading. The city deal team are understandably saying, 'What more proof do you need? Just release the cash'. But, instead, the project is still tied up in the discussions between the region and the Governments. Will you now commit to releasing the funds for those two projects as a matter of urgency?

A further question: recommendation 5 in this independent review talks of the need, as we've heard, to appoint a portfolio director before the end of April 2019 to provide independent advice to the board. Is this realistic, considering that we are now coming towards March—the end of March 2019, the last time I looked?

And, finally, the controversy around the suspensions at Swansea University is something that hangs over the city deal, so can I ask: what discussions are you having with the university on this? Clearly, the sooner that this issue is resolved, the better it will be for confidence in the city deal.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you for those questions. I'll try to answer them in turn. I think, in many ways, the Member's comments compound the problem we've been seeing, in that there's been a very different perception of the way the city deal is being run depending on which part of the M4 you're coming from. So, the Member's repeating many of the things I've heard said from the city deal end, which is a different perspective from the one in the reports and the one that the Governments have. So, for example, he repeats the call that money be released in an early way to allow these projects to proceed, but we can't release money until there has been a proper business case agreed and submitted. So, I think that is irresponsible—to call for public money to be endorsed in this way without the proper checks and balances put in place.

He also says: why is it that the different parties are not talking to each other? Well, I'm not sure if he's had a chance to properly read both the reports, but I'd suggest that it's worth the investment of time, because it does address many of the points that he asks. So, for example, on page 13 of the independent report by the local authorities, it says, and I quote, that 'business cases are presented to UK and Welsh Governments prematurely, resulting in UK and Welsh Governments undertaking due diligence checks they'd expect the regional office to have undertaken, which is further frustrating the process.'

And I think that this is at the heart of the matter, that much of this challenge and rigour, which the report, led by Pembrokeshire, says was not in place, should be done at a local level and has not been done at the local level. The cases are then sent to the different Governments, who are then having to knock them back because they're not ready, which is creating further tension and misunderstanding and fuelling the degree of suspicion there has been. If they had the skill set and the portfolio approach embedded, they'd be able to carry out those checks on each other, rather than passing them to us to be checked and prematurely submitting those business cases, and I think that really has been at the heart of the problem. So, it's incumbent on us now to reset the way this deal has been operated to give it the best chance of success and to help the local authorities to be able to carry out those checks themselves.

He mentions again, as he did yesterday, the Egin being fully occupied and officially opened and the funding not released. Again, my understanding is the funding in the city deal is for phase 2 of the Egin. It's phase 1 of the Egin that is open and has been occupied, not phase 2. So, I think there's a misunderstanding there about what projects we're talking about.

He asks about a portfolio director being in place by the end of April 2019. Is that realistic? I don't think it is realistic. We could, of course, press ahead with appointing someone, but I think it's really important that the right person gets this job. So, I think we should be more charitable in the way we look at that suggested deadline.

He also asks have we been in discussions with the university. Of course, the university are not partners in the city deal; they're partners of some of the projects within the city deal. And, now that we're moving to a portfolio approach, it's for the city deal themselves to decide how they flex and change the current range of projects they have within their portfolio and whether or not there's still the same appetite to go ahead with them and whether or not they can pass the tests that remain in place.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

And, finally, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I won't repeat anything that Dai Lloyd or Suzy Davies have said, but can I say that we've oft spoken as one on this for the whole period of time? There are not many other issues that you can say that about. But we really have stood together, because we realise how really important this is to the economy of the Swansea bay city region. Will the Welsh Government continue to provide all the support necessary to the Swansea bay city region? And does the Minister accept that to increase the GVA in Wales we need to develop more high-paid highly skilled employment, which is what the Swansea bay city deal is about? It's about getting jobs that pay at a higher level to get our GVA up.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Yes, indeed. In terms of providing all support necessary, we really want this to succeed. The UK Government want this to succeed. Members here want it to succeed. The local authorities want it to succeed. In some ways, it's not been necessarily set up to succeed in the structures that we've put in place, in the insistence of the five-case business model, which the local authorities have struggled to respond to—that level of scrutiny and rigour. I think the important thing now—. And I stress, in all the reports, it's stressed that there is criticism of all sides here.

We had a very good meeting with the local authority leaders on Friday, in which I emphasised—and there was unanimity on—that there's no profit in pointing fingers here. Clearly, if we want this to succeed we need to press on, learn the lessons, reset. That is certainly the spirit in which the Welsh Government—and, in all the conversations I've had with the Secretary of State for Wales, the UK Government too—are entering into this endeavour. But, ultimately, this is a local-led project. So, in terms of all support necessary, we will give it every support we can, but also, in the spirit of partnership, that leadership has got to come from the local area, and not from us. But we must see it within the spirit of developing regional economic plans and work together on them as equals and, as I say, move away from the policeman to the partner model.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 4 is a 90-second statement. Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This month marks the thirty-fifth anniversary of the start of the 1984-85 miners' strike. The strike had a significant impact on mining communities throughout the UK, including those here in Wales, and including the ones that I represent in Cynon Valley. Indeed, growing up in a village like Cwmbach, where many of my friends and neighbours were directly affected by the strike, I myself and a whole generation of young people and women, as well as the miners and families themselves, couldn't fail to be shaped and moulded by its effects.

The strike didn't start in Wales, but, by 14 March, every colliery in south Wales was on strike, and, of the 21,500 miners in south Wales, a staggering 99.6 per cent took part. Remarkably, 93 per cent were still on strike a whole year later. That retention figure far surpasses other areas, testament to the resolve and solidarity of the miners and their communities. Yet it's also a reflection on how much their towns and villages relied on the pits. The miners and their families endured unprecedented hardships, yet historians have written of the sense of community that was created, and not just within mining areas. I'm sure we're all familiar with the inspirational film Pride, telling one such story. In Cynon Valley, the miners' support group was twinned with Islington and the London Turkish community. The miners said that the UK Government had a long-term plan to decimate their industry, and as we mark the start of their struggle, we can only reflect on how perceptive they were.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you.

Motion to elect a Member to a committee

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The next item is a motion to elect a Member to a committee, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move formally the motion.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Formally.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Debate: Stage 4 of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 5 on our agenda is a debate on Stage 4 of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill, and I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move the motion.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's my pleasure to present the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill to the National Assembly for Wales for its approval. I hope, indeed, that Members will support the Bill this afternoon because the Bill will strengthen the ombudsman’s role in order to protect the most vulnerable in our society, improve social justice, and, of course, drive improvements in public services and complaints handling.

Now, today marks the culmination of a process that began back in 2015, when the Finance Committee of the fourth Assembly, chaired by Jocelyn Davies, conducted an inquiry to consider extending the ombudsman’s powers. On behalf of both the fourth and fifth Assembly Finance Committees, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the various consultations that have helped inform and shape the Bill today.

I would also like to thank Members for the constructive and collaborative approach to this legislation, and this is the first Bill to be taken through the Assembly by a committee. That was based on our shared desire to ensure that the most vulnerable individuals, who are often most reliant on our public services, feel confident complaining to the ombudsman and that they have the right to a fair response to their complaint.

And, I am grateful to the Assembly committees that have been responsible for scrutinising the Bill, namely the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee and, especially, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee and its Chair, John Griffiths. Now, this Bill has been improved as a result of that scrutiny. For example, the Bill now ensures that the ombudsman is required to consult specified persons, such as commissioners, when carrying out own-initiative investigations, and the Bill now requires the ombudsman to maintain a register of all the complaints received. The Bill also strengthens the Welsh language duties and responsibilities placed on the ombudsman.

At Stage 2, the Members expressed concerns about the accountability of the ombudsman for the future. Before today's vote, I would like to assure Members that I have had initial discussions with the Chairs of the Public Accounts Committee and the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee with regard to the oversight arrangements of the Assembly, and how they can be strengthened in future through our responsibilities for appointing the ombudsman, scrutinising the annual report and accounts of the ombudsman and, of course, the duty to review the implementation of the Act.

Now, the next steps in terms of the Bill's implementation, of course, include receiving Royal Assent, commencement by Welsh Ministers, working with the ombudsman to ensure that he has consulted widely before the provisions come into force. It's also a requirement that the Secretary of State makes the necessary consequential amendments to UK Parliament Acts, and this is with regard to the ombudsman's work on a joint basis with the ombudsmen in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and some provisions with regard to the general data protection regulation—the GDPR— which is, of course, beyond the competence of this Assembly. And while some practical issues are to be worked through, the Secretary of State's office has noted that it is willing to deal with the necessary consequential legislation, and that is, of course, to be welcomed very much.

Now, it has been a long journey to reach Stage 4 as we have arrived at today, and I ask Assembly Members to support the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I thank the Member in charge for all his hard work and for the non-partisan and consensual manner in which he has worked with other parties throughout the Bill process. It's been one of the rare occasions that all parties have generally agreed on a piece of legislation. However, I was disappointed, of course, that my own proposed amendments were unsuccessful.

The ombudsman plays a vital role in ensuring that any member of the public who believes that they've suffered injustice through maladministration or service failure by a public body is able to make a complaint with the reassurance that their complaint will be dealt with fairly and independently by the ombudsman. To this end, we welcome the extension to his powers within this Bill, but, of course, increased power brings increased responsibility with it.

Our unsuccessful Stage 3 amendments included one to ensure that the ombudsman considers the resources of town and community councils when preparing their model complaints-handling procedure and another to ensure that the ombudsman takes into consideration the Nolan principles applying to the ethical standards expected of public office holders when undertaking investigations into complaints against public bodies. We feel that these would have strengthened the Bill.

As I stated at Stage 3, One Voice Wales, representing town and community councils in Wales, had written to me stating that they do have concerns about the model complaints procedure. They further noted that most town and community councils in Wales are incredibly small and employ just one clerk who would normally or likely work on a part-time basis. I've also since received correspondence from the North and Mid Wales Association of Local Councils, which refers to the model complaints procedure on Welshpool Town Council's website and recommends that town councils deal with their own complaints in the first instance where they wish to adopt a code in that regard.

I note that the Member in charge stated at Stage 3 that he has

'included some commentary on this issue in the revised explanatory memorandum to the Bill'

and his view

'is that that sufficiently addresses the concerns expressed'.

We therefore hope that he's proved correct in this respect.

I also note his statement at Stage 3 that he's

'ensured the revised explanatory memorandum now makes it explicit that in holding public office or working in the public sector, the ombudsman and the listed authorities are required to have regard to the Nolan principles.'

We remain of the view that this is critical where complaints to the ombudsman frequently relate to matters to which the alleged conduct of officers are integral and, at the very least, evidence submitted to the ombudsman by said officers in relation to these complaints must be considered in the context of a potential conflict of interest. However, we are generally supportive of the Bill before us today and particularly welcome the aspects of this Bill that allow the ombudsman to initiate his or her own investigations, and which increase the mediums by which people can complain, rather than just by writing, thereby creating a more accessible complaints process. Diolch.

Neil McEvoy (Independent, South Wales Central)

I declare an interest as a county councillor. I won't be supporting this legislation. In Catalunya, they do politics by judiciary—the unionists, that is. And in Labour Wales, we have politics by tribunal. The abuses of the system are actually very similar in principle. I feel we have an ombudsman system lacking in integrity, lacking in accountability of the ombudsman himself, who uses gagging orders, refuses to disclose e-mails and operates with a basic lack of fairness and a lack of transparency.

I want to give you an example of a confidential investigation by the ombudsman, and the person who was confidentially being investigated received a phone call and text messages from a serving Member of this Assembly after discussing the case with the ombudsman. Now, I know that's true because the person was me. I got the text messages; I had the call; I had the discussion and was warned not to take on the ombudsman. I was told I couldn't win, and I think that, with hindsight, in a factual sense, that was correct but morally completely wrong. When there was a tribunal—and I'm talking about the fairness of the system here—I was not allowed to present those text messages as evidence of a lack of transparency, a lack of fairness in the system. The local government ombudsman in Wales is used as a political weapon to stamp out the sense, to stop questions being asked, and it's a way of trying to exert control over politicians. I will oppose this legislation because this office of the ombudsman—and some people may not want to hear this, looking at the reactions around the room—this office of the ombudsman is used in a highly undemocratic way, and I will not support this legislation.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I call the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd to speak?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I'd like to put on record my thanks to the Member in charge, Llyr Gruffydd, and the Finance Committee and their supporting officials for their time and their work over the last year. The Finance Committee has worked really constructively with the Welsh Government to ensure that the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill, which we have before us today, is an effective and robust piece of legislation and one that will help strengthen public services in Wales and support public accountability. I hope that Members will be able to support it. I would also like to thank the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for their detailed scrutiny of the Bill and put on record my thanks to those Members who were part of the fourth Assembly's Finance Committee and Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee, which were very instrumental in preparing the ground work for this Bill. Beyond this Chamber, I'd like to thank all of those across Wales who have contributed to the development of this Bill through various inquiries and consultations, undertaken both recently and during the fourth Assembly.

Throughout the National Assembly's consideration of this Bill, the value of the service of the ombudsman has been very clear. The ombudsman's office helps those people who have been let down by services and haven't received the level of service that they're entitled to expect. This Bill will support access to the ombudsman's services for vulnerable people, including, for the first time, those who have been let down by private healthcare companies. It grants the ombudsman the new powers to investigate systemic problems on their own initiative where there is evidence of widespread, repetitive and deep-rooted problems, and it will also allow the ombudsman to play a leading role in improving standards in complaints handling across the public sector. This should lead to more complaints being resolved at the first point of contact rather than people having to resort to the ombudsman, and this Bill will make it easier for people to complain to the ombudsman when issues do need to be escalated. The extensive amendments the Finance Committee has made to this Bill since its introduction ensure that it will achieve these aims effectively and will preserve the primacy of complaints processes agreed by the National Assembly.

At the core of this Bill is the principle that healthy and effective complaints processes are a key source of feedback for public bodies and a driver to improve the services that we offer the people of Wales. In that spirit, I hope that Members will support the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill today, ensuring that Wales continues to be at the leading edge of ombudsman legislation and supporting our public services to be responsive to the needs of people in Wales.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I now call Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate?

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I first of all thank Mark Isherwood for his contribution and the way that he as well has engaged in this process? You are right: I have, sort of, recognised some of the issues that you raised and hopefully the revised explanatory memorandum, as you referred to, will be borne out to be true to what I believe is the situation and I'm sure that is the case. Can I thank the Minister as well for her contribution and, again, for the co-operation that we've had with Government officials in dealing with this legislation?

In terms of Neil McEvoy's comments, I am disappointed that he's used this opportunity to make some of the points that he has made, although he's perfectly within his right to do that. I won't comment on any individual cases. We know that there are ways and means for people to pursue any of those concerns that they may have. I could not disagree more in terms of his accusation that the ombudsman lacks integrity, lacks accountability, lacks fairness and lacks transparency. My biggest disappointment is that the Member lacked any interest in previous stages of this Bill, where he could have brought forward amendments to change any deficiencies in the law. He chose not to do so. He sat on his hands when he had an opportunity to put forward amendments to this Bill, changes to this Bill, which would have started to maybe address some of the concerns that he has raised. He didn't do so, so, clearly, it wasn't that much of a concern to him. So, I regret his choice to sit on his hands and to come here and grandstand in front of us. And I'm sure we'll all see through that for what it is.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I therefore want to add to the thanks that I gave earlier to everyone—or almost everyone—who has engaged in this process. I want to thank, in particular, the Commission staff, particularly the clerks, the clerking team and the legal services team of the Finance Committee, for their great support and for all the work that they have done to bring us to this point in the process. With those few words, may I ask Members to support the Bill this afternoon and to open a new chapter, in so doing, in the work of the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, and in the support that there is for the citizens of Wales, particularly those who are most dependent on our public services?

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions, so I defer voting on this motion until voting time.

6. Debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee Report: Mobile Action Plan Update

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 6 on our agenda this afternoon is a debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee's report on the mobile action plan update, and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion in my name. This report before us today looks at the progress with the Welsh Government's mobile action plan, and follows on from the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee's 2017 inquiry into digital infrastructure in Wales, when we recommended that the Welsh Government should make firm commitments to collaborate with the UK Government, regulators and the industry to improve digital connectivity and support infrastructure needed for better mobile coverage.

We all know mobile connectivity is now a vital service for the people living and working in Wales, just as water and electricity are. We all know how annoying it is to be without our phones for two hours or a day, or perhaps in some cases—Suzy Davies has just whispered to me—it's lovely; it depends on how you look at it. But Wales still lags some way behind other parts of the UK in terms of coverage, and so this has been an important area of committee scrutiny.

Our update report looked at what has been achieved by the Welsh Government since its mobile action plan, which was launched in October 2017, and we made 10 recommendations. Now, what I'm going to say next I would like to say in every opening of a committee debate for the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee: I welcome the Government's acceptance of all our recommendations and the general positive tone of the response.

The Welsh Government’s response starts by emphasising that telecommunications is a reserved matter, and that it does not hold all the levers to improve mobile coverage. I'd respond to that it two ways. While it's true, it was the Welsh Government, of course, that brought forward the mobile action plan, so, of course, it's not unreasonable for the committee and stakeholders to demand that those planned actions are delivered with urgency. And, secondly, the Welsh Government clearly has a number of levers at its disposal. So, I therefore focus my opening remarks on those areas where the Welsh Government does hold the levers and can set the pace, in particular in relation to planning and business rates, and by collaborating with providers to deliver infill solutions for coverage in hard-to-reach areas.

On planning, the committee made two recommendations: one on best practice guidance and one on allowing higher mast heights under the permitted planning regime. It was obviously very pleasing to see the announcement last month that the rules around mast heights in Wales have finally been relaxed so that masts of up to 25m do not have to go through the full planning permission process. This means that, from next month, the rules in Wales will now be in line with those in Scotland and England. This is something the committee first recommended in its digital infrastructure report in 2017, when we said that the Welsh Government

'should reform the planning regime to support investment in digital connectivity, in particular to allow the installation of masts that cover a wider geographical range.'

We also said that the Welsh Government should work with operators and planning authorities to ensure that plans are clearly communicated to the affected communities, and that the key benefits of mobile connectivity are actively promoted. Although mobile coverage has increased in Wales since 2017, our report found that the role the action plan had played in that improvement was unclear, and we called on the Welsh Government to use its devolved levers to tip the scales of commercial viability in favour of further investment in some problem areas.

We also recommended that the Welsh Government continues to engage with mobile operators and other stakeholders to capture best practice and include that in the revised and consolidated code of best practice and technical advice note 19. The Government has said it will consider a review of TAN 19 when further work on the permitted development rights regulations and the national development framework is complete, and indicated that work is unlikely to begin until 2020.

While I understand the need to undertake this work in a logical order, we do need to move as quickly as possible on this. The clear message from us on the committee and from the industry was that rapid action is needed to ensure that Wales does not fall further behind. The latest Ofcom figures show that, on almost all measures of mobile coverage, Wales is behind the UK average. So, for geographic 4G coverage by all four mobile operators, we are at 57 per cent, compared to a UK average of 66 per cent. I note from the Government’s response that it believes there is scope to combine TAN 19 and the code of practice into one document, and to perhaps adopt the approach taken in England by having mobile providers take a lead on this work.

Obviously when it comes to planning there will always need to be a balance struck between the need for base stations to provide coverage and local community concerns about the landscape, but we must recognise the expectations, I think, of the 90 per cent of people who use mobile phones that they should have full mobile connectivity.

The persistent gaps in coverage are not just between Wales and the other UK nations, but they're also between rural and urban areas of Wales. I am all too aware of this, of course, from my own constituency of Montgomeryshire. The committee considered how a rural roaming obligation might help in areas of poor coverage, although we recognise that it won't help if you are in a notspot area where there is no network to roam onto, and the frustrations of having calls drop out. Nevertheless, we recommended that the Welsh Government should continue to lobby mobile providers for rural wholesale access, and if they do not respond positively, for the Welsh Government to call on the UK Government to make this mandatory through Ofcom, as part of the package of measures to increase coverage. I appreciate that Welsh Government is pursuing this issue, and I'm encouraged that they continue to press the case.

With regard to our recommendation that Welsh Government engages with mobile operators on the merits of business rate relief, it is also welcome that the Government says it is looking at the role of a non-domestic rate support scheme as part of the interventions to tackle specific notspots.

Of course, while we are trying to remedy the problems with 4G coverage, talk has already started to move on to the roll-out of the next generation of mobile connectivity, 5G, and that was mentioned in contributions and questions earlier today. The benefits of 5G, to deliver faster and better broadband, and to potentially—[Interruption.] I'll take it in a moment, if I can, Suzy.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

All right, yes.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

—and to potentially revolutionise the manufacturing, transport and healthcare sectors, are highly anticipated. But 5G is unlikely to extend the coverage of mobile networks, as it is more about increasing the capacity of the network than extending its reach. And the technology for 5G does not directly benefit from the change in permitted development rules, as 5G networks are likely to see greater deployment of small base stations, making mast heights less of an issue. But it's still important, though, to ask what the Welsh Government is doing to make Wales 5G ready. We need to be making sure that the Welsh Government is 5G ready. So, we would obviously be interested in the Minister's views on what could be done to maximise the opportunities of 5G technology for Wales. I'll take an intervention from Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much, Russell. You mentioned 5G there. Of course, that's another technology that involves a level of electromagnetic field. Obviously, there's already existing guidance on people who have a sensitivity to this, to limit their exposure to it, but I just wondered, as the Government is looking at 5G roll-out—and I completely agree with the benefits of this—whether potential health questions are considered as part of that process.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I thank Suzy Davies for the intervention. It is rather a new technology that is still yet to be rolled out. Certainly, Members of the committee have had members of the public contact us in regard to that question, but the official guidance is saying that there is no health risk for humans or animals. That is the official guidance that is provided. But, clearly, I'd be interested in the Minister's response to that point as well.

If we are to achieve coverage in Wales that is comparable with the UK as a whole, then the Welsh Government, I do think, needs to do more with the levers at its disposal, so I therefore call on the Minister to outline any areas in which the Welsh Government is leading the way. Let's find out where the Welsh Government is leading the way of all the UK nations. I look forward to hearing views from colleagues and from the Minister, and of course I commend this report to the Assembly.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'd like to thank the Chair for his opening remarks. I didn't, to my recollection, take part in all of the inquiry, but I was there for the tail end, and it's obviously an important issue that affects us all. I do welcome the Welsh Government looking ahead to the future and looking at ways of developing infrastructure. However, there are huge gaps in coverage across Wales, particularly in rural areas, and that's no surprise to anybody. Areas of my region, particularly in the northern Valleys and Gower, are not connected well enough, and some areas seem to have hit a wall in how they can get connected. There is a need to remember, moving forward, that we don't forget communities who may not be perfectly located when establishing 5G networks. There should be equitable distribution across Wales so as to allow areas that are underdeveloped a chance to catch up.

I think it's important to note that large parts of Wales don't even have adequate 4G signal across four networks or more, so talks of 5G could be viewed as very premature in some areas of the country. It's not to say that 5G shouldn't be developed, but it's to say that we need to establish the development of 4G before we potentially move forward.

In terms of better connectivity on a broader level, the Welsh Government at the moment seems to have hit a wall in terms of high-speed and superfast broadband. I've also asked questions in this place before on capacity issues too. We know that in parts of Wales, particularly in areas of high self-employment, people's economic security can depend on their connectivity. It means whether a business is successful or not, so we really need to get to grips with how businesses can get past this particular hurdle.

We have to ensure that a full suite of connectivity options is available, making sure that existing technology is rolled out equitably across Wales. In terms of 5G, I'm still concerned there is a risk we could be left behind, so I think it would be useful to have some clarity from the Government here today on how they are integrating 5G delivery plans with the existing delivery of improving 4G across multiple networks.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I found this really interesting, this topic of connectivity in the modern age, and there were a few things that clearly came out and that I will focus on. One of them was the shared masts element, where you don't have to keep, time and time again, putting up different masts to get the same result if one mast is shared by companies. The Minister told us in the discussions that we had that she had had talks with people in the Home Office so that they would do some futureproofing on those masts. We heard from EE that they were developing 40 new sites, and others were developing their sites, and that they were prepared to share those masts in those sites. So, I think it is important that we do that, because we have heard, and Suzy Davies raised it now, that people are concerned about the health implications of putting up multiple masts on multiple sites. So, maybe that would go some way to help with that.

What we must do is make sure that all communities move forward together here. We can’t have people left behind in what is now a digital age. I’ve had e-mails from people who are actually going somewhere away from their home in order to access some connectivity, just so that they can do that. I’ve heard about people sitting in their cars with their children, so that they can complete their homework. That is definitely not satisfactory. And we know that people are moving more and more to doing everything on their phones, and far less on their computers, and I suppose that we are all guilty of doing that.

I know from experience, in covering my area in Mid and West Wales, that there are plenty of notspots, and I’ve got two phones, and they're on two different networks, but it still doesn’t ensure that I have complete coverage wherever it is that I go. And even if I had all the networks and all the phones to go with them, I would still experience notspots. So, we really need to do something about that.

We’ve heard from the providers, when they’ve asked the Minister for reduced business rates, and the Minister quite rightly said that that has to make commercial sense, that we can’t just reduce business rates unless there is going to be a return for that subsidy—because it will be a subsidy into a private business—to give something back to that community. And in terms of small and medium-sized enterprises—and those are the majority of businesses that are in my area—they do have to have connectivity just even to start up. But if we are asking them to grow and to develop, there is no way that that can be done in a digital age without the high-speed connectivity that they absolutely have to have for that to happen.