Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 3 April 2019

316 contributions from 40 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, and the first question, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

1. What financial resources have been allocated to date by the Welsh Government in preparation for the event of a 'no deal' Brexit? OAQ53726

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We have called on the UK Government to release funds to tackle its self-imposed chaos. As well as allocating £34 million through the European Union transition fund, we have been actively increasing preparations for a 'no deal' exit, including the Preparing Wales portal, redeploying staff resources, and co-ordinating work across public services.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Of course, the resources that have been spent on 'no deal' planning could have been spent on the Welsh national health service and our schools, which are crying out for investment, had the Westminster Government negotiated a sensible deal, along the lines set out in the joint Plaid Cymru/Welsh Government White Paper, 'Securing Wales' Future', published in January 2017. Not doing so led to total gridlock in Westminster, economic uncertainty and the requirement for Welsh Government to expend time and resources preparing for the eventuality of a 'no deal' Brexit. Could the Minister inform us whether it is her understanding that UK Government spending on 'no deal' is Barnettised? And, further to that, does the Minister agree that the British Treasury should compensate Welsh Government for any funds spent on Wales-specific preparations in this regard, since it is the fault of the Westminster Government that these valuable Welsh funds have been squandered?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much. There's very little that I could disagree with in the statement that you've provided this afternoon, which does demonstrate the level of expense that the Welsh Government is making in terms of investing to ensure that we are as best prepared as we possibly can for a Brexit of whatever type that might take. But what I have to say as well is that the funds that we're putting in through the EU transition fund and the level of resource that the Welsh Government is having to turn away from our day-to-day, core business and put into 'no deal' planning are absolutely huge and this is dominating the work of all departments. We have allocated funding that we have had as a Barnett consequential through our EU transition fund. So, some of that funding has gone to the business resilience fund—that's £1.7 million; £1.2 million to strengthen the capacity of local authorities to respond to Brexit; £435,000 to develop police capacity to respond to any civil contingencies; £0.5 million for local resilience forums, who will co-ordinate the response to civil contingencies, as and when they emerge; and £0.5 million to expand the provision of information and support, including immigration advice, to help European Economic Area citizens who are living in Wales. All of these are things that we only have to do because of the chaos that the UK Government has brought about.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Obviously, the Chancellor made £31 million available to you as a Welsh Government for 'no deal' planning. It's important to understand how that money is being used within Welsh Government, and, indeed, its partner bodies. Can you indicate how you've distributed that money, finance Minister, and, importantly, how much of that £31 million has gone outside of Welsh Government, to support health boards or local authorities, for example, which might have to make their own preparations around 'no deal' contingency?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, all of those items that I've just described have been funded through the EU transition fund, which was funded with the money you describe, alongside funding for training and upskilling the workforce in Wales's automotive and aerospace industries, and funding for Welsh universities to drive international partnerships and promote Wales as a study destination. I'd be more than happy to share again with Members the list of schemes that we've already funded through our EU transition fund.FootnoteLink

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

2. What consideration did the Welsh Government give to the NHS when allocating funding for the 2019-20 final budget? OAQ53707

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We continue to prioritise funding for the NHS in Wales, and the 2019-20 budget approved by the Assembly in January provides £7.4 billion for core NHS funding, representing record levels of investment in the NHS in Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. In his response to Paul Davies yesterday, the First Minister said that,

'our GP community has to do more to match the expectations of patient populations'.

But it's now over seven years since the British Medical Association Cymru and the Royal College of General Practitioners launched campaigns aimed at Assembly Members, warning of a ticking time-bomb and that 90 per cent of patient contacts are with general practice, and yet funding as the share of the NHS cake had fallen. And they've continuously relaunched those campaigns since. It's almost five years since the North Wales Local Medical Committee came to the Assembly to say we had a crisis in north Wales, warning that several practices couldn't fill vacancies and that many GPs were seriously considering retirement because of the expanding workload. Only last week, the north Wales community health council wrote to the health Minister here in response to the Welsh Government consultation on the options paper, 'NHS Wales Performers List', saying that their members were disappointed and that the difficulties in north Wales have been present and increasing for at least five years and that there's no question about if or whether the difficulties in recruitment and retention will continue. In terms of allocating funds for GP services within the NHS budget, how would you therefore respond to the final sentence of their letter last week that the Welsh Government needs to demonstrate that it is working hard to develop a robust and inventive approach to this crisis that makes the most of the freedom to innovate that is afforded to NHS Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

You'll remember, of course, that the health Minister responded to many of those concerns, particularly regarding the GP service in Wales during his statement on 'Train. Work. Live.' yesterday afternoon. And, of course, the First Minister also made some comments on the same during the First Minister's questions session yesterday afternoon.

But in terms of our overall investment in the NHS, of course, core NHS funding with a total investment of £7.4 billion in 2019-20 represents the single largest budget within the Welsh Government and contains our core funding for the NHS Welsh health boards and trusts, and we're investing more than £0.5 billion extra on health and social care in 2019-20. This will be used to fund performance, NHS pay and prevention, including £192 million to take forward the implementation of our long-term plan for health and social care, 'A Healthier Wales'. And, of course, there is £14 million over two years, from 2018 to 2020, as part of our agreement with Plaid Cymru, which includes the commitment to establish medical education in north Wales. Alongside that, we have a serious programme of capital investment in the NHS, not least in north Wales. So, we're demonstrating very clearly that health remains a key priority for Welsh Government.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

It is clear, of course, that effective co-operation between health and social care services can reduce the pressure on both health and care budgets. I'm very grateful to the Minister for agreeing to meet me yesterday to discuss the ways forward to potentially develop some consensus around innovative ways of funding care. Does the Minister agree with me that we will continue to face increased pressures on health budgets unless we can solve the issues of the interface between health and care? And does she also agree with me that there will need to be substantial investment in our care services if we are to create that parity of esteem between the two services that we agree across this Chamber, I think, is desirable?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for the question and thank you also for the very useful meeting that we had yesterday to discuss innovative ways in which we can fund social care in future, given the huge pressures that we know already exist in the system, but also the anticipated increasing pressures due to the ageing population that we have here in Wales and the escalating needs that some people will have in Wales as well.

So, one of those options that we discussed was the social care levy. It's one of the options that the inter-ministerial group is looking at in terms of how we prepare ourselves to meet that challenge. We're also looking at other innovative ways of funding. I'm really keen to take this piece of work forward on a cross-party basis because it is something that we will all be keen to work together on, I'm sure. We've had some good, I think, cross-party consensus in debates on that.

I'm really excited by the work of the integrated care fund, because that genuinely brings together health and social services. The transformation fund is also doing some good work in that area. So, it demonstrates really that if we are to achieve good outcomes for people, we need to ensure that we're not separating health and social care in our minds, but also giving the opportunity to bring those two things together through budgets and we do see health boards and local authorities working in a very different way alongside the third sector when we enable them to share those budgets.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the party spokespeople to question the Minister. The Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. Finance Minister, the Federation of Small Businesses report on creating a new tax system in Wales has highlighted some concerning facts about the lack of awareness on devolved taxes. Perhaps most shockingly, their August 2018 survey found that 66 per cent of FSB members said that they were not aware of devolved taxes when questioned, with some stating that there'd been little or no information provided by the Welsh Government. Admittedly, that is a few months back. This seems to contradict an answer I received from the Welsh Revenue Authority yesterday, who'd estimated that they'd reached an audience of around 4.5 million through digital and social media campaigns. Can you update us on progress being made with raising the profile of devolved taxation in Wales? And who do you think is right—is it the WRA or is it the FSB?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising this important issue, especially in what is a momentous week for tax in Wales. I was certainly pleased to receive the FSB's report, and I was pleased to invite them to give a presentation at the recent tax advisory group in terms of helping us understand from their perspective and the perspective of their members how they best can work alongside Welsh Government and the Welsh Revenue Authority. In terms of who's right, I think actually they're probably both right, in the sense that the FSB report came out in August, so that was before—or the research was done in August—a lot of the engagement and communication work was undertaken, and, actually, the FSB's research does reflect the kind of research that Welsh Government has done in terms of understanding the level of awareness and understanding that is out there in the Welsh public in terms of taxes. I think that that report does provide us with a really good baseline on which to work now, in terms of driving forward our communication work to help people understand Welsh taxes better. Also, we need to do some further work, I think, on local taxes. But certainly the Welsh Revenue Authority has been doing some absolutely excellent and intensive work in order to communicate.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

I resisted the temptation to say it was a momentous week in Welsh taxation because we tend to say that during every set of questions with all the changes that have been happening with devolved taxation over the last months and, indeed, the preparations over longer. When he was the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, the First Minister said that he was sceptical about the extent to which taxation issues had an effect on behaviour, and he said,

'I don't take the economic view of mankind that people are always calculating down to the last penny whether they want to be in one place or another'.

Yet, returning to the FSB's report, which I'm glad you've had sight of, that states that some solicitors dealing with land transaction tax are already saying that their clients are considering buying property close to the border to avoid paying higher property taxes in Wales. In fact, one of their key findings was that concerns continue to be expressed about the potential for the different rates between land transaction tax and UK stamp duty land tax, and the effect of that influencing taxpayer behaviour and the potential for distortion. I appreciate these are still early days and that it was only some solicitors who said that, but nonetheless there's clearly an area here that needs to be monitored by the Welsh Government. Do you think that we are doing enough to monitor potential distortions along the border area, and what preparations are you making to make sure that, going forward, the property market in Wales is stable?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I realise your primary concern here relates to non-residential land transaction tax, and, of course, we have a lower starting rate of tax for the purchase of business premises here in Wales than under stamp duty land tax, and this means that all businesses purchasing premises up to £1.1 million in Wales either pay no tax at all or they pay less than they would under stamp duty land tax. This really does benefit small and medium-sized businesses across the country.

In the first year of land transaction tax it's estimated that around nine out of 10 transactions would pay either no LTT or the amount would be less than it would have been under SDLT for non-residential transactions. So, I think that actions that we've taken certainly are beneficial to small and medium-sized enterprises. I do understand the concern over the additional 1 per cent that there is for the higher rate. However, I think that it is far too early in the day to make a conclusion as to what, if any, impact that had on behaviour, and it's also worth bearing in mind that the year before LTT came in was an exceptional year in terms of tax take or in terms of transactions on those higher properties. So, I think that it's something that we are watching closely. We'll have the outturn figures in June of this year, so we'll have a better understanding of at least the first year's behaviour.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

My colleague on the Finance Committee, Mike Hedges, is always keen to point out the cyclical nature of LTT and property transactions, and what you've just said about it being early days and having had exceptional years is certainly something that we've looked at on the Finance Committee.

I welcome what you said, that people buying properties at the lower end should have less of a tax burden. I think we would all agree with that, not just on the issue of taxation, but income tax as well, with the UK Government taking more people out of the tax bracket in terms of the allowance at the lower end. That's to be welcomed. However, going back to the FSB report and LTT, the most recent figures are also starting to sound warning bells about raising the tax thresholds for properties at the higher end, over £1 million, to what are some of the highest levels in the UK.

Although we are yet to see the full year's collection for land transaction tax, CoStar's UK commercial property investment review for quarter 3 in 2018 shows that Wales is one of the weakest UK regions for property investment—down 70 per cent, or £54 million against a five-year quarterly average. Now, whilst I accept that taxation might not be the be-all and end-all in terms of what's causing that, will you undertake to keep this situation under very close review? And if you are receiving warning signs from CoStar and other organisations that the statistics are pointing to the Welsh Government's taxation policy in this area being detrimental to the economy, will you change course pretty speedily and make sure that we are not discouraging investment by taxing those at the higher end too much?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you, and I can confirm that officials are in regular contact with property industry experts, and that engagement is ongoing. We'll certainly be monitoring any perceivable impact that the differential rate that we have here, in terms of the higher rate of LTT, might have on those high-value transactions. As I say, we're just a year in, so we don't actually have a full picture yet, but it is absolutely something that I am keeping a keen eye on.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. The world is changing, the economy is changing with it, and one change is that the information economy is becoming more and more important, and in that regard expenditure on research and development will become more and more important. That’s how you generate new ideas and new devices that will be the basis for a new generation of businesses. So, can the Minister give an update on expenditure on R&D within the Welsh Government’s budget?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Certainly. I will seek to provide you with some concrete figures as to our expenditure on R&D,FootnoteLink but one of the concerns that we have had in recent times is, of course, the impact of leaving the European Union on our capacity in R&D. We've been looking very closely at the Reid report in order to ensure that we do have the maximum profile, if you like, in terms of ensuring that Wales is seen as a great destination for R&D, an environment where Welsh Government is supportive, but also an environment where academics are enabled to thrive in an environment that very much promotes the work that they do.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I'm grateful for that response, and I certainly also share the concern about the effects of leaving the European Union on future R&D funding in Wales. R&D funding comes from many different sources, of course, and business is by far the biggest source of funding, but let me look at higher education. Recent figures show UK higher education R&D spend in total of around £6.5 billion. Break that down and we see spend per person in Wales to be £86. In London and the home counties of England, it's £275 per head—almost 60 per cent of the total R&D spend in higher education is spent in the south-east of England. Universities themselves, of course, draw in that R&D funding themselves, but it would be wrong to suggest that Welsh Government couldn't be influential in seeing how much more money we could draw into Wales. Much of the current UK pool of R&D funding is drawn into what's known as the 'golden triangle', between Oxford and Cambridge and the London universities, and because of their track record in R&D they're able to beat off much of the competition and claim a lion's share of funding. But does the Minister agree with me that it's time now that Welsh Government really started to make the case for creating a Welsh pool—a protected Welsh pool—of R&D funding, into which our universities could apply for funding in order to increase expenditure in this sector in Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, you clearly raise an extremely important point. Around £0.75 billion was spent on R&D in Wales in 2017—that's the latest year for which we have figures—and that's an increase of 4.6 per cent compared to the previous year. That effectively now matches the increase in R&D spending across the UK.

We've accepted the first recommendation of the Reid review, which is to strengthen our position in London through the office that we have there, and that's something that is currently being undertaken. We've both referred to the EU structural funds programme period. During that, we've invested £340 million, and that represents 20 per cent of all EU structural funds allocated to Wales and it continues to play a vital role in growing the Welsh economy and growing Welsh expertise.

So, certainly, I would be keen to explore what we would do were the UK Government to come through on its guarantee for EU funding. Clearly, there are discussions ongoing there that are causing some concern, not least about the exchange rate to which the UK Government intends to pass on funding to us. There will be discussions, I think, for me to have alongside my colleague—

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Referring back to your first words, I admire your positivity in saying that the increase in R&D spending in Wales is matching the increase in other parts of the UK. Let me try to illustrate it. Wales has increased that much from that point, whereas the rest of the UK has increased that much from a point up there. We need to be aiming for parity with other parts of the UK. Let's look elsewhere. Let's look at direct Government R&D spend in Wales. In 2016, of the £2.2 billion spent on research and development by UK Government, £54 per person was spent in London and the home counties, just £5 per person was spent in Wales. And you, as finance Minister, aren't jumping up and down about this every single day. Isn't this just a further example, yes, of the Conservative Government at a UK level not investing in Wales, as we believe on these benches that they should, but also your Government consistently again failing to make the case for Wales's share of R&D funding? And that's to the detriment of Wales and to jobs in Wales.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Obviously, I would disagree. I'm always interested that whenever you seek to make a comparison it's always with London and the home counties, which isn't necessarily a well-recognised comparison with Wales. Spending on R&D is low in Wales, as it is across the UK in Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development terms. It's a challenge that we are facing right across the UK. The level of R&D funding in any relatively small economy, such as Wales, is influenced greatly by a small number of major projects commencing or ending, and that means that any one year's results should be interpreted cautiously.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I'd like to raise the subject of public procurement. Post Brexit we should be able to re-examine the rules governing public procurement, and this should make it easier for the public sector in Wales to award contracts to small companies and SMEs. However, even discarding Brexit, there are opportunities for the public sector to make it easier for small firms to bid for contracts. For instance, if we should look at the health sector, the problem here is that local firms can't realistically bid for many contracts, for instance to supply food to a particular hospital, because these contracts tend to be awarded by an NHS health board to provide food across the whole of the health board's estate, which of course means most of these contracts end up going to only the larger firms, some of which are not necessarily Welsh. Has the Welsh Government considered how this situation might be changed, for instance by NHS boards breaking up the provision of food into smaller contracts?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising the important issue of procurement. Of course, our strategy is having a positive impact on the economy in Wales and on businesses in Wales, with Wales-based suppliers now winning over half of the annual £6.2 billion procurement expenditure. However, I am very much ambitious to do more, and I'm ambitious for our SMEs to be able to play their full part in that. We're certainly using our policies to lower the barriers to small businesses and to enable them to secure places in supply chains in Wales. The outcomes that we are achieving far exceed the targets that the UK Government is working towards for engaging with SMEs. So, such policies include community benefits, the supplier qualification information database, project bank accounts, the code of practice for ethical employment and our joint bidding guidance. And we're continuing to open up opportunities for smaller firms, and our encouragement for public bodies to advertise all contracts below £25,000 on Sell2Wales is driving some really positive change.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

We do, on these benches, acknowledge the fact that the National Procurement Service is making a difference, but we also know that the Welsh Government will need to change its approach after Brexit, and this was recognised by the First Minister, who stated in the Chamber recently that the Welsh Government would, after Brexit, look at using procurement on a more local or regional level. And we also know that a template for public procurement policy was drawn up when Jane Hutt was finance Minister and it covered the construction industry in Wales. Has the Government made any analysis of how well this policy has worked in the construction sector?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Certainly, we're working to ensure that small and medium-sized enterprises are able to bid into contracts in the construction sector, and that's one of our key target sectors, actually, in terms of our approach to procurement. Of course, we had the review of the National Procurement Service and Value Wales, and we're currently working together with stakeholders to transition those teams to a new service with a reduced portfolio of national contracts, but with very much a stronger focus on the development and delivery of procurement policy on that local and regional basis, which I think would provide smaller construction companies with a much greater opportunity to engage with the contracts that are available.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Of course I thank, again, the Minister for her answer, but one of the obstacles to tendering for contracts is, of course, the tendering process itself, which involves completing lots of complex forms, and then the process takes up lots of resources, which will often be beyond the capability of small or medium-sized companies. So, to sum up, Minister, I really do think this is an area that the Welsh Government needs to take very seriously, as it can have a very substantial impact on the foundational economy. If contracts are awarded to local companies, the money generated tends to remain in the local community, and this is not necessarily the case when contracts are awarded to very large firms, particularly if they are headquartered outside Wales.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We recognise that small companies can often struggle to bid for large contracts, and that's why I'm really pleased that, as of March, 31 per cent of contracts that were published on Sell2Wales this year were advertised as being suitable for joint bidding, and I think that's a really important way of supporting small local companies to bid into those contracts. And we are seeing some of those positive impacts in the construction sector, where 78 per cent of contracts or frameworks over £750,000 advertised via Sell2Wales have been awarded to Welsh contractors this year.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

3. What is the Welsh Government's policy regarding disinvesting from fossil fuel companies? OAQ53730

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The reduction of carbon emissions is a priority for the Welsh Government. A fortnight ago we published 'Prosperity for All: A Low Carbon Wales', our cross-Government plan to cut emissions and contribute to the global fight against climate change.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

You’ve not said anything about disinvesting in fossil fuel companies, as far as I can see. We are falling behind in Wales in this context because the Government in the Republic of Ireland has decided that they will be the first nation in the world to disinvest and to sell all of their investments in fossil fuel companies after a Bill was passed recently, with the support of all parties there. I'm sure we wouldn't be a long way off achieving that in this Senedd too, if the Government chose to follow that particular path. For example, in the Republic of Ireland, their national investment fund, worth £8 billion, will be disinvesting in coal, gas, oil and peat as soon as practically possible, and that’s expected to happen over no more than five years. So, will you commit for Wales to emulate that to clearly demonstrate the real commitment that we have in terms of climate change in this nation?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'll certainly commit to exploring that with colleagues and to looking very closely at what the Republic of Ireland have achieved, and then I will write to you following that.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Minister, we know that local government pension schemes have invested in a huge range of companies, including fossil fuel companies as well. We know the sort of pressures that local government pension schemes are under and look like they will continue to be under, so it's not just a question of what the Welsh Government is going to invest or disinvest in. What advice are you giving to local authorities in terms of their pension schemes, to make sure that you get that balance right between discouraging a fossil fuel economy over the decades to come, but also making sure that those local authorities aren't put at more of a financial disadvantage than they might otherwise be?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

In 2018 Monmouthshire County Council voted to request that the greater Gwent fund, which handles the pensions for Monmouthshire, Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent, Caerphilly and Newport councils, make an ordered withdrawal from fossil fuel-based companies. The fund at the time was estimated to hold £245 million of investment in fossil fuel-based companies. So, I think that's a really positive example that we see there, and they're certainly showing some strong leadership within the sector.

Of course, the local government pensions scheme is an England-and-Wales scheme, so it's not devolved and so we wouldn't have any direct influence on it. But we're carefully looking at what's been achieved through the greater Gwent fund.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of the land transaction tax in Wales? OAQ53710

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Current land transaction tax rates and thresholds mean the vast majority of taxpayers pay the same or less tax than under stamp duty land tax. Outturn data for the first year will be considered once published by the Welsh Revenue Authority in June. Evidence indicates that taxpayers receive a high-quality service from the WRA.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much for the reply, Minister, but the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales recently published a report on creating a new tax system in Wales. When referring to the land transaction tax, the FSB found that many solicitors raised concerns about the properties close to or straddling the English border. They claim that they have difficulty working out which side of the border a property is on, because there is very little information on the definitive position of the boundary line. Several solicitors call for a straightforward way of quickly identifying whether a property is in England or Wales, preferably through the Welsh Revenue Authority website. Will the Minister agree to look into this matter and see what can be done to address the concerns of solicitors dealing with border properties?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'll certainly look into any remaining concerns that exist, but I would hope that since the FSB undertook its research back in August those issues have now satisfactorily been resolved. But if there are individual cases where there remains concern, I'd be happy to take those cases up.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

5. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the Welsh Government's public procurement policy? OAQ53691

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Wales procurement policy statement is having a positive impact on the economy and communities of Wales, with Wales-based suppliers now winning 52 per cent of the annual £6.2 billion procurement expenditure, up from 35 per cent in 2004. Going forward, our policies will build on this to further strengthen the Welsh economy.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, you'll be aware that when the National Procurement Service was first created in 2013 the then Minister, Jane Hutt, described the NPS as a

'very Welsh way to meet Welsh business needs but also value for money for the Welsh pound.'

Since then, however, as you know, the NPS has made significant losses, ultimately leading to the decision by the Welsh Government to review the NPS altogether.

Now, naturally, public procurement has been cited in the Welsh Government's own economic strategy, the economic action plan, as being a key enabler for driving forward business growth and job creation here in Wales. Can I therefore ask you to outline what you believe are the core factors that have contributed to the failure of the NPS? Do you agree that the failure of the NPS constitutes a serious and significant blow to the Welsh Government's overall programme for policy delivery in this Assembly term?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

In terms of the NPS, I would certainly refer you to the review that was undertaken of the NPS, which set out what our stakeholders told us they felt wasn't working as well as it could through the approach, and they were things such as not taking a sufficiently strong regional approach or not taking a sufficiently strong local approach to it. So, I think in terms of the most important thing, really, being moving forward from here, work is ongoing now in terms of the future delivery strategy. That work is well under way, as I say. We're sharing a draft with stakeholders by early summer of 2019, and I'd be more than happy to offer colleagues across the Chamber the opportunity to have a briefing session with officials and the opportunity to feed into that strategy, because I know that there's a great deal of interest in public procurement across the Assembly. The initial draft, as I say, should be ready by the end of the month, by which point we would start to go out to discuss it with stakeholders.

We're further refining some of the milestones that we would want, to take account of the feedback that we've already had from the Welsh Local Government Association and NHS Wales. That draft strategy will be the basis for undertaking some further consultation on a new way forward. We'll also be using events such as Procurex as a means of raising awareness of the work, and engaging with as wide a range of stakeholders as possible. But I'm absolutely clear that the way in which we move forward with this agenda has to be very much co-produced with those people who'll be using the service and benefiting from the service.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Minister, there's no doubt in my mind that the Welsh Government has an ambitious and dynamic strategy through which to harness the power of public procurement for the betterment of communities across Wales. But in order to do so, it's absolutely vital that we have procurement specialists right at the heart of local government, and we know that there are shortages within this area. So, what discussions have you had with the local government Minister around this and, in particular, are there any plans for a successor scheme to the Home Grown Talent scheme, which proved to be so successful a few years back?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising this, and I think that procurement is a very undervalued profession, given the huge difference that decisions made by procurement specialists can make to the local economy particularly. So, skills and capability are priority areas in the new approach that we're taking, and a new skills and training programme is going to be developed. Again, we'll do that in conjunction with stakeholders. The focus will be on not just procurement, but wider issues such as thinking innovatively, to take advantage of state aid rules and the procurement rules, to apply new approaches to procurement to achieve the economic benefits, create jobs and achieve well-being objectives across Wales. And in addition to this, we'll be providing new supporting guidance in key areas, such as social care and construction, to drive up consistency and capability in the commissioning and procurement of those vital areas of public service delivery. Again, we'll be looking particularly at risk assessment and management in terms of the work that we're doing to enhance capability within the sector. But I'm very clear that procurement professionals will be playing an absolutely key role in driving this agenda forward, and it was something that the First Minister set out very clearly in his leadership manifesto as one of his own priorities.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Unfortunately, the environment Minister has had to leave the Chamber, but I had hoped to thank her, in her presence, and her officials for the way they worked with and Bangor University after I’d suggested that we should work together on a way of saving the Prince Madog ship, and to turn it into a research vessel for Wales on maritime issues. I understand that those discussions with the Minister’s officials and the university had been very positive indeed, but a decision had been made that procurement rules made it impossible to proceed with that project, which could have saved that hugely successful relationship that’s existed between the university and P&O over a number of years. And I know that the environment Minister, who is back in her seat now, agrees with me in this regard, but may I appeal on you as Minister to do everything you can to ensure that a spec can be put together that would mean that it would be possible to work within procurement rules to proceed with this important project, which would save the ship, the excellent research work and local jobs?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising this, and I'm very happy to meet with the Minister to explore how we might take this agenda forward.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on budget allocations to the economy and transport portfolio to support economic development in the valleys? OAQ53732

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Within the economy and transport portfolio, the Minister is prioritising investment to support economic development in the Valleys through a variety of measures, such as the Valleys taskforce priorities, Tech Valleys and a number of transport projects.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

We are at the moment enjoying historic record levels of investment to support and sustain the economy in the Valleys of south Wales. There's nearly £0.5 billion being spent around my constituency alone in dualling the A465 Heads of the Valleys road. But what's important is that we're able to maximise the value of these investments and we're able to have the maximum economic impact and create jobs and opportunities for people, particularly across the Heads of the Valleys. Would it be possible for the Minister and the Government to provide the National Assembly with a schedule of investments taking place? The Valleys taskforce has produced a delivery plan including strategic hubs and the Valleys regional park. It would be useful for all of us were we to have an update on the expenditure against those ambitions and targets and also to understand whether the Welsh Government intends to continue to maintain this level of investment.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising that. Of course, the 2019-20 budget includes spending of £25 million over two years to develop the seven strategic hubs in the Valleys taskforce area—which of course you announced, so you'll be very, very familiar with—to create employment and investment opportunities. We've also allocated £7 million of capital over two years, so £3.5 million in each of the 2019-20 and 2020-21 years, to support the development of the Valleys regional park. This will be used to support the development of the discovery gateways across the Valleys and to deliver ambitions set out in the Valleys regional park prospectus, which was published in October 2018. I know it's the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport's intention to bring forward a statement to the Assembly, which will encapsulate the Tech Valleys, the foundational economy and the Valleys taskforce work, and I'll ask him to bear in mind your comments this afternoon when he does that.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

It may well be that that statement's going to answer my question but I'm going to ask you just in case, because I was encouraged to hear from First Cymru that a prime example of co-ordinated bus timetables across counties could be found with the Maesteg-Cymmer service, where there are connections for onward journeys that are managed at Cymmer but start in a different county. The company's developed software recently to tell them of traffic delays so that they can contact drivers if one of the buses in that set-up is delayed and then other connecting buses can wait. The same company is talking about developing software to enable travellers to use one ticket in the Swansea valley and into Swansea even though more than one operator may be working on the particular route. I think we'd agree that mobility and connectivity is going to be pretty critical in regenerating Valleys economies and technologies enabling that. So, can you tell us a little bit more about how Welsh Government is using the budget allocation outside Tech Valleys, for general economic development, to speak with tech companies and persuade them that it's worth while setting up or expanding within the Valleys areas to become part of the circular economy in those areas, not just the foundational economy? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'll certainly ask my colleague who is best placed to provide you with a fuller update on the work that he's undertaking there. I know that the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport is extremely ambitious for the Tech Valleys and is pursuing a number of ideas that could bring together some very exciting approaches to technology and to the digital agenda within that area. I'm also very keen to explore what more we can do to harness the potential of digital to ensure that transport does become more accessible for people. I'll make sure that you have a fuller response to that.FootnoteLink

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on progress in developing the Welsh Government's tax policy? OAQ53728

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government's 2017 tax policy framework established the principles that define our strategic approach to Welsh taxes. My 2019 tax policy work plan, published in February, sets out what we're doing in three key areas: tax development, tax administration, and engagement and capacity building.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, tourism is very important in Wales and a very important part of our economy. Many countries have a tourism tax, which provides revenue to improve the tourism product and indeed help promote and market tourism effectively. Is Welsh Government—[Interruption.] There are also anxieties around the proposals, which I understand. So, is Welsh Government continuing to consider and undertake work on a potential tourism tax in Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for raising this. We're certainly working with the tourism sector and with local government to begin to explore the nature and possible impact of a tourism tax and the merits that have been brought forward for it, but also the concerns that the tourism sector has expressed about this idea. The consideration of a tourism tax has identified a number of policy issues that we need to give some further consideration to, including, for example, the relationship between a tourism tax and VAT on tourist accommodation and how local tourism taxes might intersect with other key policy areas, such as local taxes and existing regulatory pressures. But we continue to examine these issues over the longer term and to do so very much in partnership with the tourism sector and local authorities, whilst also keeping a keen eye on the developments that are happening elsewhere in the UK and further afield in this area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And, finally, question 8, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

8. What assessment has the Minister made of the potential impact of Brexit on future Welsh Government budgets? OAQ53733

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The chief economist’s report, published alongside the draft budget 2019-20, provides an analysis of Wales’s medium-term fiscal prospects. Both economic and fiscal prospects depend crucially on the form of exiting the EU.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Minister, we're aware that the chaos surrounding Brexit at present is already having a damaging impact on the budgets of the United Kingdom, but also on the perception of the United Kingdom in the wider world. We are also aware that there isn't a single form of Brexit that actually benefits the economy. There's no such thing as a jobs-first Brexit, there's no such thing as an economy-first Brexit. We know that Brexit, whatever form it takes, will have a detrimental impact on the economy of Wales and the economy of the United Kingdom. The question we ask ourselves is what sort of negative impact it will have. Now, that clearly will impact our ability to raise taxation, both in Wales and the United Kingdom. It would appear to me that it would be useful were the Welsh Government to be able to make a full statement on the potential impacts on public spending in Wales of Brexit, whatever form it takes.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you. It is my intention to bring forward before the end of the summer term a statement on the outlook for public spending, and that will certainly be informed by the form that Brexit takes, but you're absolutely right to say that there is no Brexit that isn't harmful to the Welsh economy, and we set that out very clearly in the 'Securing Wales's Future' policy paper, but also in terms of the economic analysis, which we also published in December, regarding the potential ways in which we might leave the EU. And, actually, it's a fact that Wales might even be or is likely to be even worse hit than other parts of the UK. I was interested to read today Goldman Sachs saying £600 million a week has already been lost to the UK since the European referendum. I certainly didn't see that on the side of a bus.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language, and the first question will be answered by the Deputy Minister, and the question is from Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

1. Will the Minister provide an update on how the work of the National Museums and Galleries of Wales brings benefits to Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ53715

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Amgueddfa Cymru, the National Museum, opens its doors freely at its seven sites throughout Wales. It leads the sector in reaching out and engaging with socially diverse audiences across Wales, and I am fully aware, having been schooled by Professor Gwyn Alf Williams, that everything of value in the industrial revolution and radical politics in Wales began in Merthyr. [Laughter.]

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

And it absolutely did, Minister, so thank you for that. And could I, just while I'm on my feet, just take the opportunity to thank you for being in Merthyr Tydfil recently to start the half marathon and for the Welsh Government grant funding—

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Did he finish it?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

—that allowed it? He didn't run it, he just started it.

Minister, many of us will have noticed the success that was achieved recently by putting Dippy the Dinosaur on a tour of museums around the UK, and I'm sure our own national galleries and museums similarly have exhibits that could be put on display in venues across the south Wales Valleys and beyond. Indeed, there are many exhibits currently held in storage that could be used that way, so to what extent can you direct our national galleries and museums to bring their exhibits to the people, using local attractions like Cyfarthfa Castle or the Redhouse in Merthyr, for example, to hopefully generate additional visitors and much-needed trade? For example, the Trevithick train is held in the maritime museum in Swansea and not in its home in Merthyr Tydfil, and I'm sure the people of Merthyr Tydfil would like to see it brought to Merthyr now and again for people there locally to have a look at. So, would you agree that using suitably chosen exhibits could be another practical strand of activities in our Valleys strategies?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, the answer to that must be 'yes'. I'm always encouraging the national museums and galleries to ensure that all aspects of the national collection that can be displayed across the country are displayed in that way. We have centres such as Oriel y Parc in St Davids, or some of the libraries—most recently I was at Haverfordwest opening a new library where there's a special relationship with the national museum and galleries, and, of course, the Welsh Government itself did invest, under the Sharing Treasures scheme, in Cyfarthfa Castle and I'm very interested in ensuring that we spend more on the various funds that we have—the capital funding through the transformation fund, for example, operated by my department—to make it possible to bring the various spaces in which we hold exhibitions to the right standard.

As regards the engine, I will—[Interruption.] As regards the engine, I will discuss with the National Museum directly because I am obsessed, as you know, with the history of steam and coal and the development of railways in Wales. I will discuss with the National Museum in what way we might be able to help you on this. Now, whether it's transferring the engine regularly or transferring it on a longer term relationship—.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, can I commend you for trying to get as much of the national collection out there and seen as possible? Too much of it is held in storage and we should remember that these items are there to be seen and that is why they're in the collection in the first place. Will you join me in commending Dawn Bowden's work to promote knowledge of Merthyr's Jewish community, established in 1848, and most magnificently seen in the Gothic revival style synagogue, which was built in 1877? That synagogue's future is still in question, and I wonder if you would ask the National Museum to look at the new initiative that's been called—that is called, rather—the Historic Synagogues of Europe project, which is looking at industrial communities and other areas where there was a large Jewish population and ensuring that these historic treasures are preserved.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I'm very grateful to you for your support on our activity. I have a particular interest, of course, because of my own background and my own practice, in the history of all faith communities and particularly the role of the Jewish community in the development of Wales, the development of business and capitalism and investment within Wales, especially in key periods of the industrial revolution, and I will certainly make sure that I discuss this. There has been an initiative, and I have attended some meetings of faith groups specifically looking at the use of faith buildings for the conservation purposes that will then lead to them having a current value, and it seems to me that the key here, as always, is monuments are not there to be monuments. They're there to be used currently in order to interpret what happened there in the past.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the preparedness of large private sector organisations, such as banks, to accept correspondence in Welsh? OAQ53697

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Mike, and thank you for posing the question in Welsh. I’m pleased to see that you will be one of the million by 2050. The Welsh Language Commissioner works with the banking sector to encourage them to treat Welsh and English on the basis of equality, and recently I wrote to the commissioner offering my officials' support and assistance in developing appropriate technology to assist them in providing Welsh language services, and this, of course, would include correspondence.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you for your response.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

The difficulty my daughter had in getting Lloyds Bank to accept the form in Welsh is well-documented. What discussion has the Minister had, or intends to have, with banks, building societies and insurance companies regarding accepting correspondence in Welsh, because otherwise we're going to have a two-tier system, where the public sector responds in Welsh and the private sector doesn't?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I have had a meeting with the banks and the language commissioner, and, of course, this is the commissioner’s responsibility. But I do recognise, and I do think it’s important that we should all recognise, that correspondence is a key part of the service provided by banks. The commissioner has recently presented a seminar in London, because, very often, that’s where decisions are made, and I think that’s the way to put pressure on them and, of course, to understand that things are changing in the way that people use the banks. We need to ensure that people use technology and that that technology is available through the medium of Welsh. It’s interesting how Santander, for example, has developed software, where, once you use the Welsh language once, it remembers that you are a Welsh speaker, and I think we should be encouraging others to do likewise.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

It makes very good business sense, of course, for any organisation to be able to interact with their customers in the language of their choice, and that obviously includes Welsh, especially given that we want to see the Welsh language promoted. Now, many businesses, both large and small, will have members of staff within their teams who are Welsh speaking, but who very infrequently use their Welsh-language skills on a day-to-day basis. What work is the Welsh Government doing to encourage the use of those skills more widely within businesses of all sizes across Wales in order that the opportunity to use Welsh with customers is something that is not hidden, if you like, in terms of these latent skills, but is there for all to see, so that customers can be encouraged to communicate through the medium of Welsh?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, of course, you will be aware that the Government has announced that 12 business officials across Wales are now going around small businesses, providing them with ideas on how they can use the Welsh language in the workplace. And also, of course, there is the Cymraeg Gwaith scheme, which is run by the National Centre for Learning Welsh. Thousands and thousands of people have already used the opportunity to learn Welsh in the workplace, and, of course, we are providing a very significant contribution for them to use the Welsh language. A lot of this is about increasing people’s confidence to use the Welsh language in the workplace. A lot of work is being done within the Government already, but what is good now is that that is now going out to the private sector as well.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Minister, thankfully, apart from a few training issues, large private sector organisations such as banks and utility companies already accept correspondence in both Wales's official languages. Do you agree with me that, if we are to encourage more private sector organisations to follow suit, we have to incentivise rather than penalise? Minister, what consideration has the Welsh Government given to offering Welsh-language tuition to such organisations and perhaps reductions in business rates to those organisations that encourage staff to develop their Welsh language skills?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr. I think you're absolutely right, there are—. It's really important that we use the carrot and the stick where possible. I am more in favour of the carrot, generally, than the stick, and that's why we have really contributed millions to an initiative to encourage people to take up learning the language in the workplace. But the other side of this, of course, is that Welsh speakers—if these private sector companies are providing that service through the medium of Welsh, then it's incumbent on us, as Welsh speakers—

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

—as Welsh speakers to ensure that we make use of those services. And that’s the problem at the moment. Very often, the services are available but very few Welsh speakers make use of them. We have to ensure that we, as Welsh speakers, do make use of those services when they are available and when that opportunity arises.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you, Llywydd. Five years ago, I represented Gwynedd Council on the Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd board, which is the housing association responsible for managing over 6,300 homes in Gwynedd. The majority of the staff of the organisation are Welsh speakers, the Welsh language is a language of the majority of the population served by this organisation, and the headquarters is in one of the strongholds of the Welsh language. The body is committed to maintaining the practice of administering internally through the medium of Welsh and making the ability to communicate through the medium of Welsh a key skill for all posts in order to implement that.

In 2014, the board decided, contrary to the advice of the Welsh Language Commissioner, and contrary to the language scheme of the body, to appoint to two senior posts within the organisation without requiring Welsh language skills, and that was by a recruitment agency from Leamington Spa. There is a consensus in favour of internal administration through the medium of Welsh in the public sector in Gwynedd, and it’s a matter of social justice that Welsh should be maintained as the language of work, and a living language, in this part of the world. As I saw all of that being under threat back in 2014, I resigned from the board.

Now, it’s become apparent that this body once again is recruiting senior officials, with the assistance of an agency from Birmingham this time. And the post of deputy chief executive, with a salary of £105,000, has been advertised without any requirement in terms of the ability to communicate through the medium of Welsh, only an 'understanding' of Welsh and the culture of north Wales, whatever that means.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You have three questions. Will you ask one of them relatively quickly, please?

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Will you intervene to ensure that one of the cornerstones of your million Welsh speakers strategy, in terms of the workforce, is maintained, by sending a public letter to urge Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd to reconsider?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think this a very sensitive subject, and I think we need to be careful that we don’t close the opportunity to enable more people to have the opportunity to learn Welsh. I think that if there is a commitment to learn Welsh when they come into post, then we should be encouraging that as well. So, I do think that we have to take the opportunity to ensure that we don’t discriminate too much against people who sometimes perhaps have the correct skills in terms of developing housing, but don’t have the linguistic skills that you consider so essential.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

The job description doesn’t even mention learning Welsh; it doesn’t mention that it’s desirable, it’s only an 'understanding'—however you interpret that. The truth of the matter is that you do have powers to impose standards on housing associations. And in 2015, following the original fallout, the Welsh Language Commissioner looked into the whole situation, and came to the conclusion—and I quote from the report drawn up at that time—that

'This case has clearly demonstrated that the current procedure of asking providers of social housing to implement voluntary Welsh Language Schemes is not sufficient'.

It was clear at that time, back in 2015, that the Government needed to introduce standards for housing associations. That was four years ago, and this delay means that we are in exactly the same situation now. The work of making draft regulations has been presented to you for housing associations. It is sitting on your desk. So, will you tell us today when we will have standards in place for housing associations?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think we need to be very careful not to mix both issues. I think we will be moving forward with language schemes—or language standards—for housing associations. I can’t provide you with a clear timetable, because we are in the middle of Brexit and, unfortunately, that is taking up the legislative provision of the Government, and there’s not much left in terms of moving things forward on a legislative basis in other departments. However, we need to be careful that we don’t mix up between standards on language planning within housing associations and saying that everybody within those organisations has to speak Welsh. That is a very big step.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

I’ve heard you talk of Brexit in the past as a reason for not recommencing the programme of introducing standards for new organisations. If anything, the threat of Brexit makes it even more of a priority to safeguard our language rights.

You published your action plan for a million Welsh speakers for 2019-20 a few days ago. And this was an opportunity for you to confirm your plans and the action that we should be looking forward to over the next 12 months now that the threat of the Welsh language Bill has been withdrawn. But unfortunately—and you’ve repeated that again today—you’ve shed no light in terms of a timetable for the introduction of more standards. Without doubt, what we’ve experienced today demonstrates that we need them.

I will ask you again: can you give us some idea when workers in Wales and the public can have an assurance about their rights in terms of the Welsh language, and will you commit, therefore, to publishing a timetable for imposing standards on housing associations, as well as all of the remaining sectors, during the summer term, once we’ve returned after recess?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, we do intend to proceed with bringing new standards forward. I had a word yesterday with the head of Dŵr Cymru, and made sure that he understands that we intend to move forward with standards in the water sector. That will be the first step and then we will look at other sectors after that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Minister, in your 'Cymraeg 2050' action plan for 2019-20, which was launched last week, you make reference to recommendations made by an independent evaluation of the Cymraeg for Kids programme. I hope you will confirm that you will publish that review at some point soon. How do you anticipate that officials within Cymraeg for Kids will be involved with the developments and revision of the Welsh in education strategic plans, Welsh language fora at a local level, and regional planning for Mudiad Meithrin? How will the child’s voice be heard in this process in accordance with the convention on the rights of the child? May I also ask—? Is there a risk that some councils continue to rely on external groups such as the mentrau iaith in order to comply with their own responsibilities under standards?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. I think in terms of Cymraeg for Kids, we will be undertaking to understand if that has been a success. And I will undertake to bring the results to you once we have them.

You’re right in terms of the WESPs. What we are trying to do now is to move forward from the steps that we’ve taken in the past to concentrate on schools. There is a strong understanding now that there is a need for us to ensure that children, before they go to school—that we have a strategy for that. Because, of course, that is the way that we get children into school in the first place. I think it is difficult, in terms of very young children, to have the voice of the child in the development of these WESPs, but I want to assure you that we are going to redesign the WESPs activity to ensure that young children—we hope that we focus on that as a route that we would want the councils to follow in the future.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response. I do, of course, accept the fact that very young children can’t contribute much to this process, but, of course, they have parents too who will have their own ideas. And you haven’t answered the question either on how some councils are starting to rely on external groups to help them, as they would put it, with their internal duties and responsibilities. Because it appears to me that too many of them are doing that, rather than trying to generate more capacity within the councils themselves, within their workforce, in relation to the Welsh language.

Just to move on, the action plan also says that the Welsh in Business programme this year will focus on tourism, food and drink and retail, and Wales is often compared in a poor light with Scotland in terms of conveying our tourism offer clearly. We still undervalue our unique selling point, namely that we are a bilingual nation. It differentiates Wales from other parts of the UK in that regard. So, how will your Welsh in Business officials work with businesses that are part of our visitor economy to take advantage of that unique selling point for the benefit of Welsh-speaking communities and as an example to other non-Welsh-speaking tourist areas, where it could be difficult to persuade those in terms of what the Welsh language has to offer?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. You’re quite right; there is a need to be careful—just to answer the last question—in terms of relying too much on external groups to undertake things relating to the Welsh language. I do think it’s important that we all develop that ability internally, and, of course, councils can learn from each other. Some are further forward than others. We've seen, for example, that North Wales Police have done extraordinary work in developing the Welsh language.

In terms of Welsh in Business, yesterday I spoke with a cross-party group that were asking exactly the same question that you’ve asked now, namely how do we use the fact that we have a unique language to sell our country. What has happened already is that our branding has completely changed recently. We use the Welsh language as part of the international branding so that we do stand out. And, of course, officials who are working on Welsh in Business will be able to provide a lot of support to those who work in the tourism sector. For example, many of them are in restaurants and so forth. We can help them to translate their menus to ensure that they’re able to provide that service through the medium of Welsh, and that makes them stand out, and people like that. Of course, I think there are some areas where that is going to work better than others, but I hope that what we’ll see, as you referred to, is that other people understand and learn from those who are taking those initial steps.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response. I hope that some of this is starting to bear fruit, but I would like to see more progress made in future.

Last month, when I asked you about the Welsh Government translation helpline for small businesses, you told me that much work was being done in this area and that most of that work was being done by the Welsh Government. Your action plan states that there will be a marketing campaign to encourage businesses to use the translation helpline and that the Welsh Government—quote—will collaborate with the Welsh Language Commissioner on this. That’s a new detail since last month. Does that mean that the commissioner will help you to promote the helpline? Because I thought it was the mentrau iaith that were responsible for working with small businesses. Or are you considering transferring the whole responsibility for running this helpline to the commissioner’s office? If so, can you confirm where in the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 the commissioner has the power to provide this service, and how much additional funding will you provide to the new commissioner to meet this new responsibility?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

At the moment, what we’re hoping to do is to ensure that that helpline starts within Welsh Government. Of course, that marketing campaign will start soon. But, of course, we do have a new commissioner who has started in post this week, and I do hope that the collaboration between Welsh Government and the commissioner’s office will provide us with an opportunity to ensure that we’re much clearer in terms of who does what in terms of business. I think there is room for us to try and see whether there is a way for us to work together better. I don’t think there’s anything in the Measure that stops the commissioner from entering this field, but what we’ve been concerned about in the past is the fact that the commissioner has been focusing too much, perhaps, on the standards, rather than promoting, and we would hope, in the future, that steps will be taken to go into this field more.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, we've had a couple of debates recently about rugby, which is always an interesting subject. However, the cricket season starts in a week's time, so today I wanted to turn my attention to that. Now, as you'll be aware, Glamorgan have encountered some financial difficulty in recent years. Of course, they agreed a deal with the English cricket board not to host test matches between 2020 and 2024 in exchange for a compensation package that has helped their financial position somewhat. But what can the Welsh Government do to ensure that international cricket is brought to Wales over the next five years and beyond?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much for the question, and, indeed, I am a Glamorgan supporter, since I was first taken to St Helen's, not quite understanding what was going on there, about five years old at the time. What I will do is I will undertake to have a meeting with Cricket Wales and a discussion with the Glamorgan cricket club, and I will have an opportunity to do that fairly soon as the season is starting. But I will also undertake, if necessary, to meet formally with the England and Wales Cricket Board, in relation to the decisions made about test matches, because I appreciate the value of such events to Cardiff and the important status of Sophia Gardens as the national home of cricket in Wales.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes. Thanks very much for that commitment, Minister, and I'm sure meeting with the English cricket board would be a good idea, and I look forward to a positive outcome from that.

I note that, in 2018-19, the Welsh Government allocated £600,000 to Cricket Wales to support both community and high-performance cricket across Wales. Of course, the popularity of cricket has grown amongst people of all ages in recent years, but particularly amongst young people. I see from Cricket Wales's board minutes that a number of the board members have been working with Glamorgan cricket club to progress various initiatives, with the focus on increasing the number of people involved in cricket from the current figure of 20,000 to 40,000, which is an ambitious target. Can you tell us a little more about what Cricket Wales is doing to help develop the sport at grass-roots level, and do you think this target of doubling the number of people involved in cricket can be achieved?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, I hope it can. Obviously, it's a matter of timescale, but, again, I will ensure that, in my future discussions with Cricket Wales this season, I will ask them for a clearer indication of the likely implementation of such a target. As far as I'm concerned, it's always important to increase the spread of interest in sport. We have our major sports, which are no longer limited to the traditional seasons in terms of football and rugby football and netball, which is an increasingly important sport, and I look forward very much this week to the international women's football event, in which I shall be supporting the Welsh women's team at Rodney Parade in Newport, which has become their traditional venue. But I will make sure that, when I have these discussions, I will ensure that the role of cricket, and indeed the role of, potentially, other summer sports, will be matters that I will discuss, and through Sport Wales, of course.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, of course. It's important to foster interest in many sports, and I'm sure we all wish the Welsh women's team well in their endeavours.

The ECB have recently announced a new city-based T20 competition, if I can return to the cricket subject. It is good to see that Cardiff is one of the host venues. One of the problems I think Glamorgan have in appealing to people from all across Wales, though, is that the majority of the games are played now at Sophia Gardens in Cardiff. I know that there are efforts by Glamorgan to take games around the country. They do have their outgrounds in St Helen's, where, of course, you began watching Glamorgan, as you stated earlier, and also Colwyn Bay, where they play county games. What do you think the Welsh Government can do to ensure that cricket in Wales is brought to a wider audience, not just in terms of numbers, but geographically as well?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I certainly endorse the importance of geographical spread, and, again, clearly, I am a regular attender when there are Glamorgan matches at Llandrillo-yn-Rhos, but I would be the first to admit that that is not an adequate ground, because the boundary, unfortunately, is a bit close to the wicket, to the pitch. But I will ensure that those issues are discussed when I have my discussions with Glamorgan, and I'll take some further advice as to what seems to be commercially possible, without making any immediate commitments as to how we should do that. But, obviously, the geographical distribution of cricket, as indeed the distribution of other sports in the north, brings back the whole question of the future of Parc Eirias, because there are issues here where I think we are missing out on a large audience in the north of Wales, but also a substantial audience that would love to travel from the north-west of England into north Wales for their sport venues.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

3. What plans does the Minister have to build on the success of the Welsh Government's Wales for Africa programme? OAQ53727

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I am delighted that Wales for Africa is within my portfolio and that so many people are actively engaged in making Wales and the world a better place. The programme will form a key component of the international strategy consultation. I'm considering a response to the international strategy from the voluntary sector on how we can drive forward with this aspect of the Welsh Government's work.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thanks for that response, Minister. I very much agree, and I think there's widespread agreement across the Chamber that this is a very worthwhile programme that delivers great benefits for sub-Saharan Africa and, indeed, for Wales. One important aspect of it is the community-to-community links. I think we have a very impressive number of those in Wales, but obviously they could be added to, Minister, and the existing ones could be deepened and strengthened. So, given the importance of opening up Wales to the world and the world to Wales, and the significant part that these links play within that ambition, will you look at improving the availability of resources, of funding, to build the number of links and, as I said, strengthen and deepen those that currently exist?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, it's clear that the most successful strategies have been ones where actually it is about community to community, and this is a great example where actually people are just getting on with it, I think. PONT is a great example of that; some of the work that's done in Lesotho really demonstrates how building those communities and people-to-people relationships really gives a depth to the Wales for Africa programme.

One of the things that we need to do is to just have much greater clarity on who is doing what, where, so I've already commissioned a piece of work to see how we map that, so that we're all aware of what's going on before we start. You're absolutely right—resources are always going to be an issue here, but what's clear is, with the very small resources we are giving to this, they are having a major impact. But we can also be creative in some of the other ways that we help. So, the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, for example, recently donated a fisheries protection vessel to the Government of Liberia. It's a real issue there—how do people protect their fishing stocks—and I think that was a great contribution we can give. It wasn't money, but it was a boat, and we did that with the World Bank and with other organisations. I think we can be really proud of some of the work we're doing.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

I think I'm fast becoming my party's Africa champion, Minister. I seem to always be asking you about Africa or Love Zimbabwe in my questions to you. Can I concur with the comments that John Griffiths has just made? As you know, I do have links with the Love Zimbabwe charity, which has strong links with the town of Abergavenny. As I told you last week, Martha Holman, one of the volunteers, has her British citizenship ceremony tomorrow, actually, in Usk. So, I'm sure you'd like to join me in extending good wishes to her.

We know the difficulties that Zimbabwe is currently experiencing, and also the wider southern African area following the recent storm Idai. This Assembly, as you said, has a reputation for its links with Africa, dating back to the first Assembly, when we established those links with Lesotho. Will you and the Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer ensure that the importance of those links between the people of Wales and the people of Africa are centre stage at this year's—next month's—celebration of the 20 years of devolution, which I know is going to be happening here and elsewhere, to make sure that, in the future, links between Wales and Africa are cemented, because I think that our support for the people of Africa is very much appreciated?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. I think that's an excellent idea, and it's one I hope that the Deputy Presiding Officer will pass on—that message that perhaps it would be a good thing to celebrate the Wales-Africa links in those celebrations of 20 years of devolution.

I would love to welcome Martha as a citizen of Wales. We are delighted to have her. If everybody made the kind of contribution that she's made to her community we'd be much better off as a nation. We are really thrilled to have her, and anyone who can pass those citizenship tests really deserves to be a member of our nation. They really are quite tough. So, welcome to her, to be a Welsh Zimbabwean. We're very proud to have her.

I think it is also essential to request that the people of Wales stand in solidarity at this time with the people in southern Africa who are affected by cyclone Idai. It's been a colossal and damaging effect on the economy, on lives, on the communities there, and if anyone could contribute, that's certainly something that we would encourage them to do.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Minister, I'm very glad that you mention PONT and the work done by people in my constituency, particularly people such as Dr Geoff Lloyd, who has done so much on health in places like Uganda. And I wonder if you're aware of the proposal emerging from those who are involved in the Wales for Africa Health Links network, which suggests that Wales could adopt 3 million people in sub-Saharan Africa and provide universal health coverage for them through the existing network. Now, this is a really exciting proposal, not only using the existing network and existing resources and so on, but it would extend the actual coverage of the programme and would be a real tribute to the anniversary of the Wales for Africa programme.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. I think the work that PONT has done over the years is really quite phenomenal and so many people have been engaged with it from the bottom up. I'm aware of the work and the suggestions that have been made in terms of that link and the possibility of seeing how much further we can push the health links in particular. I've had a meeting with the deputy health Minister today to see whether there is any scope for us to push this further. So, we need to think and to scope out if there are any possibilities. In principle, I'd love to see that develop a bit further. Of course, we're under severe financial constraints at the moment, but if there is a possibility, in particular within the health sector, then I would like to see how we can explore those further.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's international relations strategy? OAQ53734

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr. I announced my intentions to produce a new strategy communicating our international vision for Wales in January. We are still in the drafting stages of this work, and I expect to put a draft to Cabinet in early May, with a final document ready for publication before the summer.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Well, in that case, I'm delighted to have caught you drafting the strategy. That's certainly something to be welcomed. We're all aware of the disaster of Brexit and the impact that's having on the standing of the United Kingdom across the world. It's important, therefore, that the Welsh Government renews its work to promote Wales as a place to do business and a place where we can create new business links across different countries. We know also that there's a significant investment taking place in the Heads of the Valleys and a Valleys programme that looks at promoting the Valleys as a place to invest and a place to do business. Can you, Minister, ensure that the Valleys and the Heads of the Valleys are central to your work in terms of international relations? Promoting the Heads of the Valleys and the whole of the Valleys as places where we can create businesses, create new business activity, I hope, will be central to the Welsh Government's wider vision of an international relations strategy.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, and you're absolutely right that, actually, the fact that we have no idea what is going to happen in terms of our relationship with Europe is making it extremely difficult to draft an international strategy, because there would be fundamental difference depending on where we end up. If we leave the European Union, and in particular if we leave with no deal, then we need to really work very, very hard to rebuild those relationships with our continental colleagues where we have similar values and we have 60 per cent of our trade and goods going to them. Of course, we would have to reinforce that. If we don't end up there and we somehow or other miraculously finish up as a part of the single market, then we will adjust our strategy as a result. So, it is difficult at the moment to know exactly how to develop the strategy.

But the one thing I can tell you is that all this Brexit nonsense is making it much more difficult for us to land inward investment into Wales. When people say they're interested in investing, the question they ask is, 'Can I export to that 500 million people market on your neighbouring continent?' And the answer at the moment is, 'We're not sure.' Now, that is not the basis for investment. So, of course, we're really concerned about that.

You will be aware that, over the years, there have been over 100 individual investments to the Heads of the Valleys region, where we've safeguarded more than about 16,000 jobs over the years, but I think fundamental to what we need to do—because you have got to ask in this global society why people are going where—I think one of the things we need to do is to make sure that we upskill the people in the Valleys so that we are offering a skilled workforce, which will really attract businesses to those areas. So, I think that's a fundamental piece of this jigsaw.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

5. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the role of Welsh-medium Flying Start programmes in increasing the number of Welsh speakers? OAQ53714

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. I meet regularly with Ministers to discuss their contribution to the aim of 1 million Welsh speakers. In September, I had a meeting with the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care, as was, to discuss the contribution to this particular aim.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Diolch. Attending Ti a Fi, Mudiad Meithrin or Welsh-medium Flying Start is, I believe, the best way to prepare children, especially those from non-Welsh-speaking families, for Welsh-medium education. What is the Minister doing to ensure that children are given equal access to Welsh-medium and English-medium Flying Start? That is, both are offered and there is no later start date for Welsh-medium Flying Start than for English.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, it is important that what we offer, that we get this right right at the beginning, because it will determine very often where children end up. So, you're absolutely right: we need to make sure that there is an equal offer. I know that Dechrau Disglair is the local authority's dedicated Welsh-medium Flying Start childcare setting in the Swansea area. Of course, what we're doing now is we're extending our offer in terms of childcare, which of course is available in Welsh, and that will give more opportunities to those parents who want to send their children to Welsh language settings. I'd be grateful if you have any details of where there has not been an equality in terms of Flying Start in terms of which language people are taught in. I'd be grateful to hear that and I can pass that on to my officials.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on National Lottery funding for projects in Wales? OAQ53709

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you for that question. As we celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of National Lottery, I'm delighted to give you the figures that National Lottery players have supported over 50,000 projects across Wales, to the tune of £1.75 billion of investment. As part of my role as Minister, I have oversight of the National Lottery spend, and therefore have regular discussions with National Lottery about the direction of travel and the direction of spend.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Minister. A recent report from the House of Lords, which you happen to be a Member of, warned of the potential danger that Brexit could make arts funding more London centric. Concerns have been raised about the fairness of the location of lottery funding and that some parts of London have received 10 times more money per head of the population than in Wales. In London, they're having 10 times more per person, per head, than in Wales. Minister, what discussions have you had with the Arts Council for Wales and Camelot about reducing this imbalance in funding in light of the findings of your House of Lords report?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, I have to disagree with my colleagues in the upper House. Clearly, I'm not a regular attender and neither is my colleague—it is rather ironic that we have two Members of the House of Lords in one department in this Assembly. The answer is that I don't think it is possible really to compare public spending in London through lottery funds with other parts of the United Kingdom—and clearly he knows London as much as I do—partly because you have there the headquarters of many organisations, you also have a massive diversity of artistic and other activities, and other lottery potential candidate activities. Therefore, what I have always sought to do is to ensure that the lottery spend in Wales reflects the proportion of applications that is made and that that is equitable within Wales. I have no control over the lottery spending, as such; I have oversight of the way it is spent in Wales. But I will ask for further discussion with the lottery in Wales in relation to the spend at the UK level, with particular reference to your question, which I'm grateful to receive.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

And finally, question 7, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

7. What discussions has the Minister had with colleagues on ways to promote Wales’s global image as a place for investment? OAQ53694

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I've met with stakeholders and with fellow Ministers to discuss how Wales's strengths can be promoted more widely and, through our award-winning Wales brand, we're focusing on telling the Wales story for businesses that start, grow and invest here, and these stories are the foundation of our marketing programme.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank the Minister. I was pleased to attend and speak last week at an event organised by the Royal Society and the Learned Society of Wales on the matter of the challenges and opportunities for research and development and innovation in Wales. One of the many aspects we considered were the Reid recommendations, including the need to increase the visibility and influence of Welsh research by creating a new Welsh research and innovation London office to act on behalf of the Welsh Government and Welsh Ministers in the interests of the Welsh research and innovation community, but also to identify and promote funding opportunities arising at a UK and international level, to attract talent and investment into the Welsh research and innovation community from the rest of the UK and internationally, and, of course, to increase the visibility of Welsh research and innovation outside of Wales.

So, Minister, in a post-Brexit situation where we'll face the disappearance of EU funding streams and the advent of a more competitive bid process funding landscape for R&D and innovation in the UK, it'll be crucial for us to punch above our weight in quality and in quantum. So, in her role, what can the Minister do, alongside the Minister for Education, to attract research and development and innovation funding and expertise to Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I think the Member's right to emphasise the point that, actually, we've gained quite significantly from Horizon in the past, and I haven't given up yet. I think there's a real opportunity for us to continue to try and engage with that programme. The nonsense of the situation is that, in the past, for the £5 billion we've put in the programme, we've got £8 billion out, as the UK. And in Wales we've had £100 million just recently from the programme—over 2,800 different collaborations across the continent. So we shouldn't give up on that. There's a real opportunity for us to continue to push on that.

I've met a couple of times since my appointment with the Chief Scientific Adviser for Wales, and you're absolutely right, he emphasises that the quality of the work in Wales is superior, very often, to much of what is done elsewhere, and we need to talk about it and sing about it. I am delighted to announce that we have had a recent appointment of a London based head of innovation and research engagement officer, who will now be based in that London office. And, of course, we have other programmes, like the Sêr Cymru programme. But part of the international strategy will be about raising the visibility of what we're doing in those areas internationally.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister.

3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 3 on the agenda is questions to the Assembly Commission, and the first question this afternoon will be answered by the Llywydd. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

1. Will the Commissioner make a statement on the Assembly Commission’s outreach service? OAQ53698

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Assembly’s outreach service engages with citizens from all parts of Wales, and of all ages and backgrounds, to increase levels of understanding and interest in the Assembly’s work and to involve people in the work of committees. The service engages with schools, colleges, youth groups, community groups, businesses, public bodies, representative bodies, unions and a wide range of civic society organisations. The team also manages the Assembly’s presence at summer shows and other events. More recently, of course, our outreach work includes supporting the Welsh Youth Parliament’s activities.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm really pleased to endorse the work they do. I know they work exceptionally hard. Of course, here, we have the honour of drafting, debating and passing legislation that does impact on our own constituents across the length and breadth of Wales.

I do have some minor concerns, and I thought I'd raise them here, as to how we, as Members, can be kept better informed of the engagement within our constituencies. This has arisen at committees. Quite often, the outreach team will engage within our own constituencies, and sometimes I'm told about it by constituents, but I'd like to see a better connection, really, between the work they do in our constituencies, because we are elected Members, and how we could, perhaps, work more closely with them. We may be able to attend an event where they may be doing some work, so we could go along to support them. Could that, possibly, be a consideration going forward, that when the outreach team are present within our own constituencies that, perhaps, as we do out of courtesy when Ministers are actually attending our constituencies, perhaps we could be informed and we could, as I say, either support them or at least we'd be aware and there would be a better join-up between us and them?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for the question, and I think the Member raises an interesting point. I know it's happened to me, where work by committees has happened in my constituency that I wasn't aware of. It is work that happens in every constituency in Wales—in every region of Wales. Perhaps it would be worth us looking at whether it's possible to create a system that would at least inform Members here of what work is happening in their constituencies and regions. Therefore, we will look at whether that is practically possible to do, but, certainly, I think it is a valuable question to ask.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Question 2 and question 3 will be answered by Commissioner David Rowlands. Question 2, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

2. What progress has been made on encouraging active travel to and from the Senedd? OAQ53696

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Assembly Member for his question. The Assembly’s website provides information on how to reach the Senedd via a variety of travel modes, including public transport, walking and cycling.

There are publicly accessible cycle racks in close proximity to the Senedd, outside both Tŷ Hywel and the Pierhead. We have met with the nextbike scheme to help facilitate the installation of a docking station in Cardiff Bay and we were pleased that one was recently installed nearby. The Assembly has been actively involved in the public services board for healthy travel in Cardiff. We're also very aware of the commitment contained in the new rail franchise to extend facilities for bike use, including more cycle capacity once the new rolling stock comes online, and we will be keeping a close watch on how this may, hopefully, have a positive impact on cycle use to the Assembly estate.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank David very much for that really comprehensive answer. I have to say that the Assembly is leading the way very much here in terms of active travel, but we could always do more, so I will be popping up regularly as a critical friend. I want to ask you, David, whether you have given any consideration, or whether you would give consideration, to the use of alternatives to heavy-duty trucks coming through the main security entrance, which cause a bit of a tailback.

There was an interesting moment the other day when a cyclist friend of mine was coming in, the articulated van pulled up and the security guards went through and did their thorough search to find that there was just one little box sitting in the middle of the Luton van that had to be driven into the estate and around. So, would he investigate the use—leading the way again, within the Senedd—of things such as cargo bikes or electric cargo bikes, which are available now in Cardiff, which could, indeed, deliver smaller packages? It's a question of leadership again. You've shown us that you're willing to lead, so would you explore that possibility?

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

As with all suggestions coming from Assembly Members, we welcome those suggestions that will help us make access to the Assembly safer as well as being much more accessible.

Just to broaden it out, just a little, on your question earlier, we note and welcome that the local authority, which, of course, is responsible for the local infrastructure with regard to bikes, has plans for five new cycle tracks, including one that runs from the city centre to the bay. We provide extensive facilities, as you know from your last question, to promote active travel, including those for cycling, walking, and latterly, of course, we've introduced electric vehicle charging points. We continue to work with Sustrans to raise awareness amongst Assembly staff of the availability of sustainable travel routes both across the city and Wales in general. I know the Member for Ogmore takes a keen interest in the subject of active travel and is also an advocate of it and, indeed, leads by example, I think. But can I assure him that the Commission has a firm commitment to provide the best possible facilities for cyclists on the Assembly estate and we will continue to announce those facilities as space and opportunity permits?

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

3. What steps does the Assembly Commission take to ensure that disabled people have full access to the Assembly estate? OAQ53721

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

If you could just give me two seconds to catch up with my paperwork on this, please.

The Commission is fully committed to ensuring access to the Assembly estate for disabled people and this is not confined just to wheelchair accessibility but also to other disabilities, such as those for the visibly impaired and those with autism. We continually review accessibility to all buildings and equality impact assessments are made before any refurbishment or improvements are carried out. We are, of course, compliant with legislation and also follow best practice guidelines.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Commissioner for his answer. It is with some regret that I have to raise a concern with him this afternoon. I recently had a disabled visitor for whom we had booked, weeks in advance, a car parking space. She's not an user of a wheelchair but she has a mobility impairment. When she arrived to take up this opportunity the space was not available to her, she was not able to park and this was even more unfortunate since she was attending the Assembly to attend the cross-party group on human rights. I'm not going to name the individual or refer to the date today, that would not be fair; I will write separately to the Commissioner in that regard. But can I ask that the Commission undertake a review of their policies with regard to the use of disabled parking spaces, to ensure that there are enough of them, to ensure that the systems—? I should emphasise that I've checked that the fault is not with my members of staff. I have checked before raising this with you that the booking was properly made.

I'm raising this here rather than writing about the one-off incident because the person concerned told me that this is not the first time that she has had this experience in this building, and if it has happened to her it may very well have happened to others. So, I would be grateful—I will write to you with the individual case so that you can look at that, but I would be very grateful if you would, as a Commission, investigate the provision of these spaces to ensure that this doesn't happen to any of our fellow disabled citizens again. I know that that would be very much what you as a Commission would wish.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Again, I thank the Member for bringing those matters to the Commission and I can assure you that when we get more extensive information from you, we will fully investigate that. You know that we do provide disabled parking in the Senedd and the Tŷ Hywel car park, but we could obviously review those to see if they're adequate now. I have to say, the Senedd building, from its inception, was designed for disabled people. But, of course, things do move on and we will more than welcome some additional facilities if we possibly can.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Question 4 is to be answered by the Llywydd. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

4. Does the Commission have a strategy for disinvesting in fossil fuels as part of the Welsh Assembly's pension funds? OAQ53711

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Commission has no means to influence the allocation of the Assembly Members' pension scheme’s assets. The power to invest the scheme’s assets sits entirely with the pension board, which is independent of the Commission. The pension board as a whole will decide where to invest those assets, based on advice received from the board’s investment advisers.

For Commission staff, the civil service pension scheme is an unfunded scheme and therefore has no assets to invest. Benefits are paid from tax revenues rather than from assets set aside to pay them.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you for that. I just wondered what correspondence you have with the independent remuneration board about the investment strategy you wish them to pursue in relation to the Assembly Members' pension fund, because it seems to me it's impossible for us to encourage local authorities to disinvest from fossil fuels, in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, unless we put our own house in order. There must have been some correspondence, surely, in relation to that, even though I appreciate that Assembly Members and the Commission have no actual input into where investments are made.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Well, this is the responsibility of the pension board, not the remuneration board, and we do elect representatives from our midst, current AMs and former AMs, to represent and sit on the pension board and it's the pension board's independent decision, then, to look at its investment strategy. I'm not sure whether any of the Members present in the Chamber at the moment are members of the pension board, but that information is available to you should you seek to write to the pension board directly.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

May I ask, therefore—? Clearly it's not a decision that the Commission can make, but I'm sure that the Commission has a view on this issue, or I'd like to think at least that the Commission has a view on the issue. Would the Commission be willing to co-ordinate correspondence from all Assembly Members, which they could co-sign, to the pension board, asking them to look at this and to look at the issue as a matter of urgency?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Well, the pension board, as I've said, is independent of the Commission, and we don't have responsibility and neither do we have a policy decision on this. It's not a matter that we have looked at, because the responsibility lies somewhere else.

As I've said, there are representatives from this Assembly on the pension board. I don't know their names currently, to name them here publicly, but I would think that it is an issue for every party, for every Member here, to be corresponding with the pension board directly themselves to draw their attention to these issues, which clearly are of interest and concern to Members. It's been raised during the Commission's questions this afternoon and also during questions to the finance Minister earlier this afternoon. So, may I encourage you all to consider writing directly to the pension board?

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Thank you, Llywydd.

4. Topical Questions

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 4 is topical questions. The first topical question this afternoon is from Lynne Neagle, to be answered by the Minister for Health and Social Services. Lynne.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

1. Will the Minister provide an update on access to CAMHS inpatient care for high risk children and young people in Wales? 298

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Hospitalisation is increasingly seen as a last resort and more young people now receive their care within their local community. To help meet the needs of young people who require in-patient care, we’ve invested £42 million in dedicated child and adolescent mental health service provision in Wales, leading to a reduction in those sent out of area.

The position on access was set out in my letter to the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee on 25 February. A further update is due imminently to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, in response to the Chair of that committee’s letter of 7 March.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Minister. I am deeply concerned that restrictions continue to be necessary at both CAMHS in-patient units in Wales, meaning that they are unable to care for young people who are at risk of suicide or self-harm. You will be aware that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales has again called for action on this in their report on services for children and young people, published just last week, and in doing so have emphasised that they’ve been raising these concerns since as long ago as 2013. My committee has been raising this with Welsh Government as far back as our ‘Mind over matter’ report last year.

I do understand that many more young people are now treated by teams in the community, but there are nevertheless those who do need admission to an in-patient unit. And it cannot be right that some of our most vulnerable young people have to be placed out of Wales, far more their families and support. It also raises serious questions about how we effectively ensure the quality and safety of such placements, which can be hundreds of miles away.

Minister, when can we expect our in-patient units to be in a position to admit young people at risk of suicide or self-harm? What assurances can you give in the meantime that there are robust and comprehensive processes in place for ensuring any out-of-Wales placements are safe and high quality? And, finally, given that predicting the risk of suicide is not an exact science, especially in a young person, what assurances can you give that a young patient who has not been identified as high risk will receive safe care in our CAMHS in-patient units?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the follow-up questions. I do recognise the importance and the seriousness of this matter. Because we're not able to have full capacity, as we would otherwise want to, it's a combination of different factors in the north Wales unit compared to south Wales, but we think there are single figures of children and young people who have been placed outside of Wales because of those restrictions. So, single figures are small, but for each person there's a family and a context, and that's not the sort of care and the location of care that we want to be able to provide. It's not what the investment we've made and the capital is supposed to provide either.

On Tŷ Llidiard, specifically, that you mention, you'll be aware that we do need to make improvements to the physical estate. Part of that work has been completed; the rest of that work is due to be completed within the year 2019-20. I'll happily write to the Member and both committees that take an interest in this to give a clearer indication of when that work should be completed.

On your broader point about—. If you like, two slightly different points. One on how we assure ourselves about the quality of care out of area and out of country: that is a real challenge and that's a challenge for the commissioners and the framework that is provided and that's monitored through a quality assurance and improvement service. They undertake site audits and monitor performance, and the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee receive regular monthly returns from the two Welsh units that are currently providing care.

So, again, I recognise the point you make that you cannot always tell if someone is having suicidal thoughts. So, the challenge is about making sure that the quality of care is appropriate. That's part of the challenge about why we're not admitting some people into those units now where that is a known risk. But that's why there is regular reporting back to WHSSC, to the quality team, whilst there is an escalation process in place. And that is an enhanced escalation process—that is not the normal way of operating because we do have concerns about our capacity to safely manage care. It is not the position that I or anyone else would want us to be in. I will provide the updates I've indicated to Members and specifically to the committees, and I'll outline in more detail in my letter that I will be sending to the health committee—I'll make sure a copy goes to the children and young people's committee, because I recognise both subject committees are maintaining a direct interest in this matter—and will continue to do so until we're in a different position.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I'm delighted that Lynne Neagle has brought this issue up once again in this Chamber this afternoon, because, as you will know, there is a child and adolescent mental health unit with in-patient capacity in my own constituency, in the town of Abergele. It was built almost 10 years ago now, back in 2009, with a capacity of 18 beds, which was to serve the north Wales area, and, unfortunately, those beds have never been fully occupied or fully opened, and we still face individuals being sent many hundreds of miles away from north Wales when only 12 of the beds are currently commissioned at our own flagship unit.

Now, I'm sure that more people could benefit from this facility if it were up to full capacity in terms of its bed use. I'm sure there would be people who would be sent in to north Wales from outside of the north Wales area as well in order to occupy those beds if they were available. And I wonder whether you could give us an update today on what action is being taken by the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to make sure that there are sufficient beds in north Wales for the young people who might need in-patient facilities in our own region. I accept there will sometimes be specialist cases where there's a need for some very specialist provision that cannot be accommodated in one of these more generalised units. I understand and accept that that might be the case from time to time, but, clearly, there are young people who could benefit from these facilities in Wales who are currently being sent over the border to England. We can easily monitor the quality and effectiveness of the care. There isn't the problem with the commissioners having to face the challenge of monitoring something hundreds of miles away. This is within Wales, this is within the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. So, can I ask, will you be working with the health board in north Wales to increase the in-patient capacity at Abergele and what work is being done within the health board to recruit, if necessary, the extra health professionals in order to man those additional beds, should you be planning to open them?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There are two points there that I think I should respond to. The first is the point about the numbers of beds that we have. We're at commissioned capacity in Tŷ Llidiard. We're below commissioned capacity—and, actually, we're commissioning 12 of those potential 18 beds—in north Wales. That's partly about the complexity and the space needed, but it is also, partly, about staff. And so there are 10 beds commissioned and in use, and they have been able to move up to 12; they had to move back down to 10, because of challenges about recruiting staff to work permanently in the facility, so I recognise that staffing is an issue. And resource isn't a problem—it's not that the health board are refusing to put staff in or holding open the vacancies; it's about our ability to recruit people into the service. And so we're operating 10 beds because it's safe to do so.

The further challenge then is, I guess, about the number of commissioned beds in any event. Actually, at present, the guidance from the Royal College of Psychiatrists actually shows that we are above the level of population to beds that they suggest we have across the country. But, in terms of reviewing our capacity, then of course we'll be informed by the level of need, and to see how many people could be served. Because, as I said, I recognise that, because we have not been able to safely staff all of the beds that we have commissioned, single figures of children and young people from Wales have gone out of the country when they could otherwise have been in those facilities within NHS Wales. So, it is a real issue for all of those children and young people and their families, and so, yes, I'm determined to provide an update that you and other Members will expect—and the undertakings I've given to Lynne Neagle about making sure that both subject committees are kept informed of progress.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Can I associate myself with everything that Lynne Neagle has said, and Darren Millar, about the seriousness of the situation? The Minister says that the current level of capacity reflects the level of what we would expect from population, but, clearly, it doesn't reflect the level of need, if we continually have, for that very small number of young people, accommodation facilities outside Wales. Given that the Minister has told us that we think we're talking in single figures here, is there more that the Minister can do to increase the capacity and to ensure that the capacity is in the correct locations, as well as being safely staffed? Does the Minister agree with me that young people should only be being treated with these serious conditions outside Wales if their condition requires it—if their condition is so unusual that we simply could not—not only that we cannot at present, but that we simply could not—meaningfully provide for that very particular need within our own country? And, accepting everything that he's said today, that he will take steps to try to address this, there is a slight sense that we have, as Lynne Neagle said, been raising these issues for a number of years. But, if we are still in a situation where young people are being treated outside Wales—even if we all accept that that isn't what we want to see—what further steps can the Minister take to ensure that young people being treated outside Wales are appropriately monitored, that we know that their care reaches the standards that we here in Wales expect, and that they are regularly visited by appropriate professionals, as well as by their families, to make sure that they are as safe and as comfortable and, I would say, as happy as they possibly can be?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think there were two questions there. In relation to the second one, about the model and the quality of placements outside of Wales, I think I dealt with that in response to questions asked by Lynne Neagle in her supplementary. And I'll certainly be addressing that to provide a written level of detail to the two committees, as I've indicated in the undertakings I've given in response to Lynne Neagle's questions.

On your other question, about capacity and need, I'm happy to give her—and all Members—the assurance that my expectation is that we should put ourselves into a position where NHS Wales only helps to place children and young people outside of Wales where it's their need that drives that, rather than capacity. And so we will, of course, need to look at the capacity that we have and to see that that is matching need. The guidance—it is guidance, as opposed to a hard-and-fast rule from the royal college—suggests that we have sufficient capacity, if we're able to sufficiently staff those. And it's actually north Wales where there's more of an issue about appropriate staffing. We will then be able to—with the commissioned capacity in Tŷ Llidiard, we expect that staffing isn't going to be a concern—make sure that all those beds are properly and safely staffed. So, I'm happy to confirm that this is not a matter of simply tolerating forever and a day the fact that people are being placed outside of Wales when it's not their care needs that drive that placement.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, I think that many Members in this Chamber would have dealt with often distressing cases involving this particular aspect of care and we're talking about some of the most vulnerable young people in society. I've had experience of cases where the treatment plan has not, really, been very successful after in-patient admission and, in fact, repeat admissions have occurred and this is very, very disruptive. Also, the way parents and carers are involved in the treatment plans can sometimes leave something to be desired. When patients are exhibiting these very distressing symptoms, we really do need to ensure that, when the patients leave in-patient care, they're still getting very specialist treatment—intensive treatment—and particularly that the diagnostic work that needs to be done is done effectively, because, sometimes, there's real doubt as to the best pathway for these often very troubled individuals under great distress.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise completely the points that the Member makes. I, as a constituency Member, have had casework and met families who are in a very, very difficult position and haven't felt well supported by the system. So, we have not just put resource—financial resource and more staffing—into the broad CAMHS service, but, of course, this goes into our earlier prevention and intervention work, as well as not just the response to 'Mind over matter', but actually the point about what support is available, after admission, for those people who have been in in-patient care.

The Healthcare Inspectorate Wales thematic report—the positive news is that, overall, they found that young people had predominantly good experiences of care, with staff who were compassionate and providing dignified and person-centred care. But that highlights again that it's possible and it's also why there's such a need for improvement for those people where we don't think that has happened and why I know that you'll have seen, and other Members will have seen, examples of where families do not feel that that has happened. So, that's work that carries on, not just in conversations between the Government and health boards, but actually between the health service and people who are using the service to understand whether we're actually meeting our aspirations.

If the Member has individual examples of where families do not believe that has happened, I would always be interested in receiving details of those to actually be able to take them up directly with that part of the health service.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

In relation to the case of Claire Greaves—the tragic case—this was obviously a case of anorexia as well as personality disorder from an early age. My interest is in trying to understand, as part of the eating disorders review, whether you are considering a discussion, a wider discussion, about an eating disorders in-patient unit or units in Wales, not directly as a consequence of this, but as a consequence of the calls, over many years, by patients and carers.

When Mark Drakeford, the current First Minister, was the health Minister, he said that he was intent on repatriating many of the young people who were in units across the border, and it may be that we can discuss the level of care in this case or we may not, but what's important here is that we have a level of provision in this nation of ours whereby people are close enough to their loved ones so that they don't feel that they're in these types of positions. So, I'm wanting to understand what you can do to ensure that we have an open debate about the possibilities of this added dimension that wasn't included in the initial framework because of the way in which the framework was delivered on that regional hub basis. I think the time has come whereby we do really need to revisit that model, not only for this case in itself, but for other young people across Wales who are in the same position.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Again, I recognise this is a real and serious issue. We know that many children and young people who access the CAMHS service and are treated—that eating disorders are part of the reason why they're actually in the CAMHS service receiving a specialist service. We have money to repatriate more people, but we recognise that we haven't done as much as we would want to. That point I was making, in response to Helen Mary's question, is about need not capacity being the driver for where people are treated. I will publish the eating disorders report that Jacinta Tan and the team of people, including people with eating disorders, have contributed to, and there'll obviously be a response. And I'm more than happy to have an open debate about the provision that we have, how that matches the provision that we think we should have, and how we get to a different place. So, I'm entirely open-minded about what we could and should be doing, and, as I say, the report will be published, and I know that you and other Members will have questions to ask and comments to make that I hope will be helpful in taking a better way forward.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you. The second topical question this afternoon is to be answered by the Minister for Economy and Transport. Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

2. What recent discussions has the Minister had regarding the future of the Trostre plant in Llanelli? 297

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We continue to have very regular discussions with Tata Steel on a range of issues including, of course, the proposed venture.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer and reassured to hear that he is in regular contact. I'm sure I speak for everyone on all sides of this Chamber when I reflect the deep concern at the reports that Tata may be required to sell its Trostre site in order to facilitate the proposed merger with Thyssenkrupp.

Of course, we faced, in the Trostre plant, a situation similar to this before, when the business was owned by Corus, and we were in a situation where the workers in Llanelli were directly competing with a plant doing exactly the same work in the Netherlands. At that time, supported by the Welsh Government, the workforce and the local management were able to demonstrate that their profitability, their skill levels, were actually higher than those of the business—the competing plant—in the Netherlands. And I would like to seek the Minister's reassurance today that he'll do everything he can with the workforce and with the local management to ensure that this very high level of skill and these very important jobs—over 600 direct jobs and many, many more, of course, in the supply chain—are not lost to Wales.

It is, of course, of an importance beyond Llanelli, because the Trostre plant is a very important customer for Port Talbot. So, there would potentially be a knock-on effect there if the plant was sold in such a way as it was sold potentially to be closed down, as was the concern in the past. So, I hope that the Minister can reassure us that he will do everything he can to retain these really important jobs in Llanelli for the impact on the local economy, but also the economy of Wales more broadly.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for the important question today, and assure her that we will do everything we can do to ensure that there is a sustainable steel-making sector in Wales, indeed just as we've been doing so since March 2016? I'm very pleased that the Member also identified the fact that Trostre is still a profitable site and that the Welsh Government has been instrumental in supporting the 650 steelworkers at the facility.

I think it's very important to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the site could not be sold off in order to close it. It would have to be sold in a way that ensures it has a viable future. I would not wish to speculate too much on what's been reported today, due to, of course, this being a commercially confidential matter between two companies. But I can confirm that the First Minister has spoken today with Hans Fischer and, as a consequence of the discussion that has taken place, we are cautiously optimistic that the sale will be approached in a way that secures the long-term future of the facility.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for the question today, Helen Mary, and for your response there, Minister. Obviously, I find this upsetting, as my grandfather and my mother worked in Trostre for many years, but it is Port Talbot that is my primary concern at the moment, and Helen Mary mentioned the role that Trostre plays in Port Talbot's supply chain, if you like.

I wonder whether there's been any work—I suppose it might be a little bit early for this—to try and map how the supply chain is likely to be affected by this, particularly within the city deal area, because, of course, one of the pluses for locating a steel innovation centre there within the city deal series of projects is the concentration of steel production, steel processing and steel fabrication. So, I would really like some reassurance that this is unlikely to, or will not, in fact, affect the ambitions within the city deal relating to steel.

The merger, as we understand it now, looks quite different from that which we were anticipating, and I think that justifies the caution of many Members in this Chamber at the time that the merger was announced. At the time, you said, Minister, that during that period of the merger, you expected to be able to take forward your discussions on the support that Welsh Government can give Tata insofar as the Welsh-based operations are concerned, and that you would welcome an announcement of an extension of the employment pact to 2026, with a commitment to seek to avoid compulsory redundancies as a result of the joint venture. I heard your reply to Helen Mary, but can you give me some indication of what progress the Welsh Government has made on getting those commitments? Have you had any specific commitment that any jobs that might be lost from Trostre will be redistributed within the Tata family, preferably near home?

And then, finally, on the same sort of point, support for Tata overall is connected to their commitment to safeguard a certain number of jobs. I'm looking for reassurance here that the announcement today is not likely to delay any development at the Port Talbot site. I'm thinking in particular of the power plant there. Because all these things are interlinked and all are conditional on a certain level of employment being maintained. Obviously, I wouldn't want this announcement today to put at risk more positive plans for other parts of the Tata estate. Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions as well, and say that this won't delay consideration of further support for Port Talbot and further support for skills training provision, should it be requested, in the months to come? The Member is absolutely right; £60 million was put on the table in order to support steel facilities in Wales in March of 2016, and £17 million pounds has been drawn down today, including, of course, a very significant amount of money for Port Talbot and the blast furnace in order to make sure that it's a more competitive facility than it was in the past.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I think it would be perhaps helpful for Members if I were to circulate a note on conditionality for Welsh Government support. Clearly, there are some issues that cannot be disclosed for commercial confidentiality purposes. However, I would like Members to be as knowledgeable as possible on how we are tying Welsh Government or taxpayer support to very strict conditions to ensure that as many jobs are protected for as long as possible.

The Member is absolutely right to raise the question of the potential impact on the ecosystem within Wales. Now, the Commission will make a decision on the proposed venture by 5 June, and at the point of a decision being made, we'll be able to ascertain what—if, indeed, any—impact there will be on the ecosystem. Of course, it's worth noting that Trostre is profitable and it is competitive, because it has been sourcing steel from Port Talbot. Given that it would have to be sold as a viable concern and as a competitive business, I would surely expect that it would go on sourcing steel from the facility that has helped to make it a profitable concern.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Minister, I hope your last point is true, because, as you say, it becomes a separate commercial entity and they will look for the cheapest deal they can get, not necessarily the best deal they can get. Therefore, clearly, the implications for Port Talbot are serious and our concerns are for Port Talbot, but also for the workers in Trostre, because it's a package—it's a whole package across Wales—Tata in Shotton, Port Talbot, Llanwern and in Trostre. It works together as a package. We've raised this many times, and I've raised with you many times the concerns that a joint venture could have. In 2016, we came out of the woods, but we hadn't cleared ourselves from the global challenges yet, and this is another one.

I do worry about this, because it's not just Trostre being mentioned; Tata are also divesting themselves of Cogent—the Orb works in Newport. It seems that Tata are divesting themselves of resources more than ThyssenKrupp in this joint-venture approach. So, what discussions are you going to have with Tata? You mentioned Hans Fischer, but perhaps we need to go above Hans Fischer to see where we actually have Tata's future in this place. Because I'm deeply concerned that when Bimlendra Jha left his position, there was no UK representation, effectively, for Tata in the UK, and particularly in Wales; it's left then, perhaps, to Martin Brunnock to be the senior person here. So, we need to have a look at having discussions with Tata in India, perhaps, to discuss what their future plans are for the industry in Wales as a whole, because this comes as a package.

Also, have you had discussions at all with the Commission? Because this is down to the Commission rules and looking at this whole approach of the joint venture and the monopoly side of things. So, have you had any opportunity to speak to the Commission at all in relation to looking at this project?

I fully appreciate the investment that the Welsh Government has given to steel over the last few years. It's been very beneficial. It's actually been one of the reasons we still have a steel industry here in Wales. But it is important to keep that industry, and that we pressurise Tata to actually ensure that all its commitments to Welsh steel continue, and that if it is going to sell—I got from your answer to Helen Mary Jones that it is going to sell Trostre, it seems, or that's the impression I got from your answer—we need to ensure that contracts that are in place with Port Talbot stay in place with Port Talbot, so they don't go elsewhere, and so we keep the industry here in Wales.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank David Rees for his questions and for his ongoing support for the steel industry in Wales? I should point out that, in terms of discussions that are taking place at the European Commission, this is, of course, a confidential negotiation between the European Commission and the joint venture partners, so it wouldn't be the place of Government to get involved in discussions with the European Commission. Our role has always been to create the right environment in which steel-making operations in Wales can be competitive and have a strong, bright future.

In terms of the question on whether Trostre would go on sourcing its steel from Port Talbot, of course, this will be a key concern of discussions that are going to take place between ourselves and Tata in the weeks to come. I am seeking discussions with the heads of Tata India's business, including, of course, with Bimlendra Jha, who's now returned to India, but with whom we still enjoy a very constructive relationship.

The joint venture is a 50:50 relationship between ThyssenKrupp and Tata Steel, and so we expect any pain to be shared equally in terms of any sale of assets. But I must stress again that the sale of Trostre would have to be conducted on the basis of it being a viable business in a competitive market, and I believe that that was stressed in the e-mail from Joe Gallagher to the workforce of Trostre just yesterday evening—that is absolutely correct.

Now, in terms of other steelworks in Wales, David Rees mentioned the Cogent Orb Electrical Steels business in Newport, and we are continuing to work very closely with Tata on that particular facility, of course. We have also helped in the successful sale of other concerns by Tata. For example, we helped to secure a future for its Afon Tinplate site. Now, on that occasion, we were able to ensure that there was a successful outcome and that all 43 members of staff were able to continue in their employment at the Swansea site, which now operates as part of the Tinmasters brand. Of course there will be anxiety at Trostre right now, but I am confident that with this Welsh Government continuing to focus relentlessly on creating the right environment in which steel facilities can succeed in Wales, those people employed at Trostre can enjoy a long-term future in the sector.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Minister.

5. 90 -second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 5 is the 90-second statements. The first this afternoon is from Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thursday 28 March was the eightieth anniversary of one of the great heroic acts during the Spanish civil war. On that day, Welshman and Cardiffian Captain Archibald Dickson rescued and saved the lives of 2,638 men, women and children fleeing Spain and General Franco’s approaching fascist troops. A blockade of the port of Alicante by Italian destroyers and the threat of German bombers led to scenes of chaos and desperation. Captain Dickson of the SS Stanbrook, witnessing these tragic scenes, in an act of utmost bravery, left his cargo behind and instead took on board the refugees. Ten minutes into the journey came the sound of explosions, and bombs landed near the Stanbrook, yet Captain Dickson broke the blockade, undoubtedly saving many lives.

In Alicante, there is a memorial plaque to Captain Dickson in Spanish, Welsh and English. Last week, on Sunday 31 March, a public civic event took place in Alicante to remember and commemorate these events. A statement of recognition and solidarity from the First Minister of Wales was read out, recognising the many Welsh men and women of the international brigade who fought fascism in Spain and saying,

'There is no greater act of solidarity than when one person risks their life for their fellow citizen.'

Plans are under way to locate a commemorative plaque, identical to the one in Alicante, near the Assembly in recognition of the deeds of Captain Dickson and in solidarity with the people of Alicante. I am delighted that the First Minister has pledged his support, and I know I can count on this Assembly to give its full support to this project.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Fifty people died and dozens more were injured when a gunman attacked two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, last month. This horrific event was a direct attack on the values of tolerance and freedom of worship, which we all hold dear. Recently, security had to be stepped up at mosques around Birmingham after five were targeted during a spate of vandalism. The Home Secretary, Sajid Javid, has announced a funding boost of £1.6 million of protective security for places of worship to help reassure communities. We in Wales must play our part. Nobody should fear persecution due to their faith. We reject those who seek to sow the seeds of hatred and division among our communities.

Deputy Presiding Officer, Jacinda Ardern, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, with the way she handled the situation after this whole massacre, she has become the most admirable woman around the world. She hugged the victims, she prayed with them, she cried with them, and the way she took those actions—the gun controls were done within days and her nation was crying with the victims and their families. We must learn lessons. Before I finish, I'll quote one or two words from that speech that she made. It is her quote:

'We are not immune to the viruses of hate, of fear, of other. We never have been. But we can be the nation that discovers the cure.'

I think we should be the one. The direct impact of her speech was that most of the victims actually pardoned the person who killed their relations. What a great person. I think, from this Chamber, we should invite her to come and tell us the way she has handled the situation and we should learn some lessons. Thank you.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

The WorldSkills finals will be taking place between 22 and 27 August later this year. Dubbed the 'skills Olympics', it's an opportunity for the world's brightest and most skilled apprentices to challenge the best in the world in their respective professions. More than 60 countries will be sending teams to the event, which will be shown on live tv and streamed across the world. Thirty-two members of Team UK have already been announced, and members will represent a variety of sectors, ranging from engineering, hospitality, professional services, construction, digital and IT.

On a recent visit to Pembrokeshire College, I was delighted to be told of the success of three highly talented young professionals from the mid and west region, which I represent, who have secured their places on the WorldSkills UK team: Sam Everton and Chris Caine, former students at Pembrokeshire College, and Phoebe McLavy, who completed her training at Coleg Sir Gâr. Sam will be competing in the cooking competition, Chris in the joinery competition, and Phoebe will be demonstrating her skills in hairdressing. I'd like to praise the hard work and dedication of these young professionals, and the effort it has taken them to reach this stage of this highly prestigious competition. I'm sure that the whole Chamber will wish them the best of luck in the finals later this year. I know that they will take this opportunity to demonstrate to the world the level of talent that Wales has to offer.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders 11.16 and 12.20 (i) to allow the report of the Standards Committee to be debated

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The next item is a motion to suspend Standing Orders 11.16 and 12.20 to allow the report of the standards committee to be debated. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to move that motion.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I move.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is agreed.

Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee's Report 01-19 to the Assembly under Standing Order 22.9

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to the debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee's report 01-19 to the Assembly under Standing Order 22.9. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion. The committee considered the report from the acting Commissioner for Standards in relation to a complaint made against Gareth Bennett AM regarding his integrity, which is a breach of paragraph 4(b) of the code of conduct and the Assembly's dignity and respect policy. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the Commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that is appropriate in this case. The facts relating to the complaint and the committee's reasons for its recommendations are set out in full in the committee's report. I would also like to take this opportunity to put on record the committee's thanks for the work undertaken by the acting Commissioner in relation to this complaint. The motion tabled invites the Assembly to endorse the committee's recommendations.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I realise that what I'm about to say is going to fall on deaf ears, but I will make my speech in any event. It's not related to the individual who is the subject of this report. These are general considerations about the way that the Standards of Conduct Committee is operating in order to give effect to the dignity and respect policy and the Standing Orders of this Assembly.

I'm concerned first of all at the admissibility of these complaints, because there were complaints made some time ago to Sir Roderick Evans, our standards commissioner, which he dismissed in a letter to Gareth Bennett of 3 October, which is published with the report. Sir Roderick says that

'I concluded that complaints that the video'—

which was being complained of—

'was sexist and misogynistic were not made out.'

Subsequently, several other complaints were made by other Members of the Assembly asking Sir Roderick to review his decision. There is of course no provision that would permit that under the existing rules. So, therefore, Sir Roderick decided that he would not be able to hear these new complaints, as a result of which Mr Bain was appointed to act in his place. Mr Bain then concluded that the new complaints were admissible, notwithstanding the fact that identical complaints had already been dismissed.

Now, it is a serious matter when we expose Members of this place to double jeopardy, as it would be of any citizen in the United Kingdom. In a court of law, where a matter is functus officio, being the official legal term for this in a court of law, no such complaint could be entertained, yet we are allowing double jeopardy in this place for complaints to be made ad nauseam, possibly, against individual Members. I believe that that in principle is wrong.

Mr Bain, in paragraph 6.1 of his report—excuse me—says that—

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, it's not so much long, but without my glasses it's difficult. Yes, in paragraph 6.1 of his report, Mr Bain says that he acknowledges that:

'the determination of complaints of this nature is a matter on which persons may legitimately reach different decisions.'

He then goes on to say:

'I am, of course, aware that the Commissioner for Standards, without the benefit of all the facts now before me, decided that Mrs Watson’s complaint'—

which was the original one—

'about the publication of the video was not admissible.'

So, that leads us to: what had changed between the original complaint and the new complaints? Well, of course at the time that Mr Bain decided to investigate the matter, nothing had changed, because there had been no further investigation. As a result of his investigation, he decided—therefore retrospectively decided—that there was new information that enabled him to consider the complaint that he'd already decided to consider.

This revolved around a phrase that Gareth Bennett used, which was—I don't know whether Members know what the video was, which was basically Joyce Watson's face put onto the body of a barmaid. I'm explaining this for the benefit of those outside who may not understand what this case is about.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

You're minimising it.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I'm not minimising it. I haven't finished my speech as yet. You can make your speech in due course.

I will read from the report. Mr Gething, whose complaint was that the video was

'transparently sexist. The buxom barmaid imagery is plainly meant to belittle and offend. The reference to'—

Sorry, I'm wrong. Sorry, it's the wrong paragraph. Without my glasses it's difficult for me to read. I apologise to Members for having made that mistake. Close to the start of the video is the following text:

'Joyce once ran a pub in Pembrokeshire but you wouldn't guess that from looking at her. She doesn't look like the life and soul of the party.' [Interruption.]

I am quoting from the report, which is published. I am quoting from the report, which is published, and I will make my speech, with the permission of the Deputy Presiding Officer, in my own way.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

If you've got a concluding sentence.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Then—this is the important sentence—

'I'm not sure I would fancy popping in for a quick one at the local if I saw her pulling pints at the bar.' [Interruption.]

I wish Members would listen. I am trying to make a—[Interruption.] I know that Members do not want to listen—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Whoa—

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

—to listen to things that you don't want to hear.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I ask the Member to wind up, please?