Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 3 July 2019

315 contributions from 43 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Education

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first questions this afternoon are questions to the Minister for Education. The first question [OAQ54160] is withdrawn. Therefore, we move to the second question, from Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

2. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that schools are able to provide a suitable education for all? OAQ54178

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Leanne. Equity and inclusion are at the heart of our national mission for education. Our education reforms will ensure that all learners can access a high standard of education and, crucially, reach their full potential.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

In recent weeks and months, I've been contacted by many people in the Rhondda, who are concerned about the support, or lack of support, for their child on the autism spectrum. I've discovered that parents are being told, when they've requested a statutory assessment for a statement of special educational needs, that the local authority no longer does statements. This is wrong, and, until September 2020, when changes come in under the new additional learning needs system, it is, in my view, a failure to discharge their duties as a local authority. Would you agree with that? And I would also like to know what you're doing to ensure that every teacher in Wales receives neurodiversity training. This was a recommendation that your Government accepted from the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee during scrutiny of the autism Bill. Can you please tell us what you've done to realise this pledge?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I have to say I'm very concerned to hear from you those reports that children are being refused the opportunity to undertake a statutory assessment for their additional learning needs. As you are quite right to say, the new legislation, which was passed by this Assembly in 2018, has not come into effect. We are currently consulting on the code and the subordinate legislation that will underpin that Act. And if you would be kind enough to write to me with some specifics on these cases, I will ensure that I and my officials follow it up. You will be aware that, to support the implementation of the new legislation, in anticipation of its full introduction in 2020, we have identified £20 million-worth of resource, and that is primarily to support the professional learning needs of teachers, to ensure that they have the skills and the knowledge to make the best of the opportunities that that new legislation offers us, which will put the child at the centre of our additional learning needs planning, whatever those additional learning needs will be. But I am concerned to think that children are not receiving the statutory assessments that they are entitled to under the current law, and I would be very happy to follow that up for you.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on plans to celebrate 70 years of Welsh-medium education in the Llynfi? OAQ54143

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Huw. Seventy years of Welsh-medium education in the Llynfi area will be celebrated. Partners in the Welsh language sector will celebrate that achievement through the borough in the annual Ogi Ogi Ogwr festival, organised by Menter Bro Ogwr, which I understand will take place on 14 July.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much for that answer.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you very much for that answer. We had a tremendous celebration as part of this, actually, only a fortnight ago, in Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd, where we had a tremendous concert, with singers and harpists, schools from throughout the area, former parents and pupils and governors, and so on, and a real ambition to look forward.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Can I ask, how will the Welsh Government work with Bridgend County Borough Council, and Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, in order to ensure ongoing growth of primary and secondary Welsh-medium education in Wales, and how could this assist in reaching the ambitious target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Huw, I'm very glad to hear about the celebrations that have already been happening in your local area. And I think it's fair to say that we have come a long way since the first Welsh-medium school was opened, in the Presiding Officer's constituency, in Aberystwyth, in 1939. But I would be the first to admit that we need to work harder, and with more ambition, in order to readdress the current imbalance in the Welsh-medium offer that is available locally. And clearly, education has a crucial role to play in achieving the Welsh Government's target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

With regard to local education authorities and county councils, we have outlined our expectation of each local authority, and the methodology is being prepared that sets out the percentage point range increase in learners taught through the medium of Welsh that local authorities will have to meet at our interim milestone of 2031. So, for instance, in Bridgend, we would expect to see the percentage of learners in Welsh-medium education in that area increase from 8.7 per cent to between 15 per cent and 19 per cent. And I know that the Member's constituency also has another local authority area. We would expect figures in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area to increase from 19.2 per cent to between 27 per cent and 31 per cent. We are supporting Bridgend local authority to do that by investment in our twenty-first century schools and colleges programme as well as co-location with nursery and childcare provision that allows people to begin that journey by choosing a bilingual future for their children from the very earliest days when we can provide childcare for them as well as nursery and early years education.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, expectations are one thing, Minister, but, in January of this year, the headteacher at that very same Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd said that any further reduction in budget would mean being unable to get specialist teachers, especially through the medium of Welsh. Now we’re all aware of schools’ general concerns about cuts to core funding, but what is our response to this particular claim about Welsh medium and its implications for the 2050 strategy?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Clearly, within the constraints of the very difficult financial settlement the Government is faced with, I’m determined to get as much money to the front line and into individual schools’ budgets as possible. Of course, financial resource is one thing; human resource is also a challenge and I recognise that. That’s why those seeking to qualify as teachers through the medium of Welsh attract the highest level of bursary from the Welsh Government to support their training as well as being subject to golden hellos when they begin their actual teaching career.

We’re working on a number of innovative plans, through from increasing the number of children taking A-level Welsh—many of whom, we know, will go on to be our Welsh teachers of the future— to initial teacher education, but also enabling teachers who are already in the system to increase their language skills via our sabbatical scheme. So, we’re looking to influence our future teachers, our current teachers and ensure that they have the linguistic skills to be able to provide first-quality Welsh-medium education for those families who choose it.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

In looking at the most recent record of Bridgend County Borough Council in terms of Welsh-medium education, unfortunately the story isn’t a positive one. The council has failed over recent years to ensure that Welsh-medium education is a realistic option in a number of communities. In reality, a number are concerned locally that there’s an institutional problem in the authority where the Welsh language is concerned. Unfortunately, even Welsh Government targets in the latest consultation document on the Welsh in education strategic plans, in my opinion, are far too low—there is a need to raise the bar significantly. Do you, therefore, as a Minister, agree that the current situation of only having four Welsh-medium schools in the Bridgend county is a complete embarrassment?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, the organisation and planning for local schools of whichever medium of tuition is a matter, quite rightly, for local education authorities. What Welsh Government has is an enabling role, and the role of encouraging those education authorities to push the boundaries. And as I said, we have set out our expectations very clearly of the increase in the number of children that we would expect to be taught through the medium of Welsh in that particular county borough, and also, to support that, Bridgend have received approval in principle, of some £2.6 million through the Welsh-medium and childcare offer, and, as I said, that's to ensure that those parents, utilising the opportunity of the Welsh Government's childcare or early years provision, can do that in an extended Welsh-medium sector.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Sayed.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm sure you'll be aware of the serious allegations of racism levelled at Cardiff University from a number of BME students in the last few days. I and, I'm sure, many others in this Chamber have received a report of testimony about racism, and it's shocking actually to read it. And also a Western Mail report outlines concerning reports experienced by an outgoing vice-president. My office has met with a group of BME students from the university who all used the term, and I quote, 'institutional racism' in the description of the university. I'm sure that many people may have read the report, but after the 'Anaphylaxis' show, BME students complained and were met with abuse, and some BME staff also faced abuse at a medical school party. Students chanted 'anaphylaxis' to the BME students.

Now, I understand the role of universities entirely, but could you give assurances to students who have concerns and have had to deal with racism, and outline what actions you'll be taking with Cardiff University and with the students who have raised these particular concerns?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Can I thank the Member for raising this very important issue? There is no place for racism anywhere in the Welsh education system, whether that be in our schools, our colleges and our universities. We have had discussions as a Government with the university and with the students union involved, and I understand that there is ongoing dialogue between them both. All universities have to have strategic equality plans setting out how they will ensure equality of opportunity for students with protected characteristics, and these plans indicate the processes and the procedures that should be in place for institutions to tackle individual incidents of racial harassment or bullying or abuse, and clearly we will be keeping a very close eye on the development of those talks that are ongoing through the university and the union.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that response. I'm glad you'll be keeping a keen eye on what's happening with the university. I know that Cardiff has insisted it is taking action and has accepted the recommendations of the report looking into this particular matter, and today, for the record, the vice-chancellor has written to me outlining some of those responses, which I am grateful for. But the trouble is that some students do not believe that, institutionally, Cardiff has been willing to contend seriously enough with racism or respond with enough gravity to reports and recommended actions. They also believe there is a wider cultural problem, particularly in certain schools of the university. So, I don't want to take away from many of the positive experiences that students from all backgrounds and cultures will have at this university, and I note that the satisfaction levels are overall high, but when there are minority groups who clearly feel that those experiences have not been dealt with appropriately, do you agree that this is a huge area of concern, and what more can you potentially do to stop these types of incidents happening again in the future?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, you're absolutely correct in saying that these are serious allegations that have been made, and my expectation is that the university will deal with them promptly, coherently and completely, and address any issues of individual behaviour or, more importantly perhaps, to address the entire culture of an individual department or school or the university as a whole. As I said, we take this very seriously. We are in touch with the university to understand what actions they are taking, and I would urge anybody that feels they have been subject to inappropriate behaviour of any kind to ensure that they come forward to give of that testimony so that we can have a full picture of what is going on. We also understand that incidents of this kind may potentially put people off from studying at university, and therefore all universities have fee and access plans that set out how they will support equality of opportunity for groups that are under-represented in HE—and BAME communities are often very much under-represented—to ensure that they have a very positive experience in higher education, and we have also made over £2 million available via HEFCW this year to support universities to develop their responses to supporting students with mental health issues, which potentially could arise out of any incidents of bullying of this kind.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. Your answer in relation to mental health leads me on seamlessly to my last question, and I acknowledge and thank you for the money that you've put into student mental health support. But my question is about what investment you may or may not be putting into the support for lecturing staff also. I've read reports in the last few days, and over the past few years, about workload issues at many universities, and we've seen one particular university where there's been a rise in antidepressants because of workload pressure, and we did see, unfortunately, a suicide, partly—I wouldn't say entirely—attributed to workload problems. Could you give us an indication as to what discussions you've had with the university sector and with trade unions, who have taken action in many instances about the fact that they too feel the stress, and they too have those mental health issues that they wish to deal with? How can you as Minister properly help them in this regard?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

What's important to recognise is that the investment that's been made available to support better mental health in our higher education sector is not simply just to be used for students. It is actually to replicate, in the same way as we're trying to develop a whole-school approach to mental health, which affects both children and professional staff—that the same is done in our universities and colleges also. What we do know is that, often, staff who are suffering episodes of poor mental health, they can transfer that, those feelings, onto their students. So, actually, we need to tackle this in the round, both from staff and faculty.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Mohammad Asghar.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, good quality careers advice is essential to help students access the jobs and skills that are best qualified for them. But concerns have been expressed about the quality and availability of careers advice, citing the shortage of trained careers advisers and a lack of knowledge of apprenticeships and vocational training by school staff. What are you doing, Minister, to improve careers advice in Wales, please?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, what we've done, Oscar, after a period in which we were not able to commission Careers Wales to be providing a service in schools, we have those trained careers advisers back in our school settings, and, more importantly, we're currently running a Gatsby pilot in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area to explore best practice. The results of that pilot will help us develop an even better careers service for children and young people going forward. It's really, really important that children at a relatively young age have that support to be able to make good choices and informed choices about what they do next in their educational career.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Minister, for the reply. I hope you roll out this pilot scheme, it is better. Inspectors already consider school careers advice provision when making judgments. However, last year, a committee of MPs in Westminster said that schools should be specifically rated by Ofsted on the quality of their careers advice. This will ensure pupils are getting all the information they need to become future scientists and engineers. What consideration has the Minister given to allow Estyn to give schools in Wales a rating that indicates the quality of advice provided in school?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'm sure the Member is aware of the work that is currently being undertaken by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Estyn and individual schools to develop a self-evaluation toolkit, which will actually help us identify best practice in schools, not just in terms of academic achievements, but also in areas outside formal qualifications. Because we expect schools, yes, to help children pass their exams, but we also expect schools to do many other things when children are in their care, and that work is ongoing.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Close ties between schools, further education colleges and employers are a major factor in helping young people achieve their aspirations. Minister, what actions are you taking in providing colleges and employers with greater accessibility to school careers guidance services to ensure young people are provided with the information they require to reach their full career potential? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I'm sure the Member will be delighted that, just prior to coming to the Chamber this afternoon, I was able to announce in our Seren event that the Seren foundation programme and the principles of Seren, which currently kick in for children after they've done their GCSEs, will now be rolling out for students from year 8. Some of the innovative projects that have already been undertaken in the pilot are working with manufacturing companies, engineers, scientists to expose even younger children to the entire range of opportunities that the wider world has to offer them, and I'm very grateful to the businesses, FE colleges and universities that have been so heavily involved in developing the programme, and I look forward to that being rolled out across the whole of Wales.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

4. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of automation on education in Wales? OAQ54171

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Our national mission provides all learners with high-level digital skills to ensure that young people are digitally competent and evolve into enterprising, creative and critical thinkers. The digital competence framework, which is the first part of our new curriculum reform, offers learners a set of skills to enable the confident, creative and critical use both of technologies and of systems design.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister. According to research by Oxford Economics, by 2030, robots will replace the majority of jobs in manufacturing. However, the analysis suggests that automation can boost jobs and increase economic growth if we adapt the workforce beforehand. Minister, what plans does your Government have to adapt the curriculum to ensure Wales is ready for the fourth industrial revolution?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

If I could give the Member just one very concrete example, she will be aware, in the consultation on the curriculum White Paper, that it is my intention, in the new curriculum, to have three statutory cross-cutting responsibilities, building on the two we already have. At the moment, we expect all lessons to contribute to literacy and to numeracy, and, in the future, digital competence will become the third cross-cutting responsibility.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, obviously, automation is an opportunity for us. Figures do show that up to 35 per cent of the workforce will have to retrain, remodel, their skills and, indeed, many of those jobs might disappear altogether. So, the demands placed on the further education sector in particular and part-time learners are going to be considerable in the next decade or so. What efforts has the department undertaken to model the work so that they can work with the training sector, especially the FE sector, to build that capacity so that where people, particularly in work, need new training opportunities, that capacity is there, so it's not just in the school environment but is right the way through the learning culture that we want to ingrain in our society?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Andrew, you're absolutely right: we will need to ensure that our education providers at a variety of levels will be able to upskill our workforce. Many of those currently in work will be seeking opportunities to retrain or to gain for the first time skills that they will need to keep pace with the local economy. I'm sure that you will have seen the recently published 'Digital 2030' report. That's a new strategic framework for digital learning in the post-16 sector in Wales, which has been developed in collaboration with the FE sector. The framework highlights the importance of ensuring that learners are equipped with digital skills and experiences of using digital technology.

In terms of the opportunity, then, to access those training opportunities, you will be aware, via a change to the funding methodology to our FE colleges, many of our FE colleges are beginning to get more into part-time provision for older learners. We've seen a significant increase in the number of part-time students applying to study via the Open University and, in September of this year, the Government will launch an individual learning account pilot in north Wales and part of south Wales, which will empower individual learners who are currently in work but in low-paid jobs with the opportunity to use that individual learning account to get back into education, either to allow them to progress up the career ladder or, indeed, to switch careers completely.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on living-wage accreditations in the education sector in Wales? OAQ54164

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Mick. I am committed to the public sector in Wales being living-wage employers, including the education sector. I'm delighted that, in addition to local authorities, all FE and higher education institutions in Wales are now living-wage employers and are working towards formal accreditation of that status.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for that answer, and I'm sure you would welcome the University of South Wales becoming the two-hundredth employer in Wales to implement the living wage. We obviously want to see more institutions having the same level of accreditation, but would you also agree with me that there is still, even with those accreditations, more work to be done to ensure that areas of work and service within those institutions that sometimes may be outsourced or subcontracted also benefit from the same living-wage accreditations?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, you're absolutely right, Mick. In order to get an accreditation of the kind that the University of South Wales has recently been awarded, the living wage must be implemented both for directly employed staff and outsourced activity. Without that, accreditation cannot be won.

Universities Wales members have committed to paying the Living Wage Foundation's living wage to all directly employed staff already, and they've already started the process of implementing the living wage across their outsourced HE activities. As I said, all institutions are currently in the process of being formally accredited for that achievement, and I'm very grateful to have worked in partnership with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, Universities Wales and the sector more widely to gain this commitment. The HE sector in Wales will be the first part of the United Kingdom's higher education landscape to achieve this goal.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Minister, I welcomed your response to Mick Antoniw with regard to local authorities across Wales. Monmouthshire County Council was one of the first local authorities to attain the status of paying the living wage to all of its staff. As you said, councils should be doing this, public bodies should be doing this, and also the education sector as well. So, could you tell us a little bit more about how you're encouraging the education sector in Wales to follow the example set by the majority of local authorities now, and how you're making sure that these living-wage accreditations do happen and do have the weight that we would attribute to them?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

My remit letter of 2019-20 to HEFCW sets out my expectation that I will receive confirmation this year that all Welsh universities will have received formally their accreditation. And I have looked, wherever I can within my department, to make progress in this regard. So, for instance, the staff of the Student Loans Company that operate the student loan system on behalf of Welsh Government out of offices in Llandudno Junction—we've also been able to negotiate with the Student Loans Company an increase to ensure that all staff there are on the real living wage and are on salaries that are more aligned with Welsh Government officials, who actually happen to be working in the same building. Enabling us to do this addresses some of the issues of recruitment and retention of those staff, so that's just another example of what we're trying to do within education to ensure that, if you're part of the national mission, in whichever way you're part of the national mission, you will be rewarded fairly.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

6. What is the Welsh Government doing to educate pupils on the benefits of active travel through the education system? OAQ54176

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, David. The new curriculum supports active travel. One of the four purposes integral to that new curriculum is that learners develop as healthy, confident individuals, able to apply knowledge about the impact of exercise on their physical and their mental health in their daily lives, and become individuals that take part in physical activity on a regular basis.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Would you join with me in congratulating Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Hamadryad in my region in Cardiff, which is becoming a pioneer for active travel in schools, not just in Wales but the rest of the UK? Their innovations are quite incredible: personalised travel planning for the pupils and parents; park and stride, so that, where a car has to be used, at least it's parked further away from the school. It's having dramatic effects on air pollution and walking rates for the pupils, who now on average are walking for between five and 10 minutes to and from school. Isn't this just the sort of programme that we want to encourage right across our education system and, who knows, we might get back to the age that I remember when I was at school when nearly everyone, unless you were ill, walked to school?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, David, I can do more than just commend Ysgol Hamadryad for the approach that they have taken, because I myself joined the walking bus to Ysgol Hamadryad just last week. It just demonstrates, with a change of mindset, actually how achievable this can be. It's been affected by a number of issues. Obviously, it's a new school and therefore new habits are perhaps more easily instilled in individuals. But, in this case, it has been down to the leadership of both the headteacher and the school's governing body, as well as some of the physical constraints of where the new school is actually built. But it demonstrates—Ysgol Hamadryad demonstrates—what can be achieved when there is a partnership approach between schools and parents, and I enjoyed my walk to school very, very much indeed.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Minister, it is good that we can benefit here in Wales from initiatives like Safe Routes in Communities and the active travel fund. I note with interest David Melding's contribution, and I'm thinking there could be many young people watching that who think, 'How can we get initiatives like that working in our own schools?' So, my question to you is: how are children and young people being encouraged to participate in the decision-making process that enables them to make the right choices? I know of several schools in my constituency that operate cycling proficiency training and walking buses as well, but how is pupil voice being prioritised within this area?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Vikki, the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 itself requires local authorities to prepare their plans for integrated walking and cycling networks, in consultation with communities. And the walk to school toolkit, which was developed by Living Streets and which Welsh Government actually funded, offers an easy and systematic way to involve schoolchildren and local communities in assessing the active travel routes to schools, new and existing, and identify necessary improvements that need to be undertaken to encourage more people to travel actively to that place of learning.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Minister, the Welsh Government released in December last year a statistical bulletin on active travel, 'Walking and cycling in Wales', compiled by the Office for National Statistics. And the figures show that 44 per cent of children actively travel to primary school; 34 per cent of children actively travel to secondary school. So, with new state-of-the-art education facilities being built and opened throughout Wales, the planned educational environment that we are building in the twenty-first century in Wales can tip and influence travel behaviour of the future generations of Welsh citizens. So, Minister, how is, then, the Welsh Government's transformative twenty-first century schools building programme being shaped to directly increase children adopting active travel as their method of choice to get to and from school?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Presiding Officer, I can assure the Member that projects benefiting from Welsh Government investment under the twenty-first century schools and colleges building programme need to demonstrate very clearly that they have included provision for safe and convenient walking and cycling access to those places of learning.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the right to receive Welsh-medium education? OAQ54155

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Diolch yn fawr, Alun. Welsh-medium education is currently offered in all local authorities across Wales. The Welsh in education strategic plans are a mechanism for planning and expanding Welsh-medium education, and we are currently consulting on a new approach to planning Welsh-medium education by introducing 10-year plans and ambitious measurable targets.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Thank you very much, Minister, for the answer. I was very pleased to hear the answer also to Huw Irranca-Davies's question earlier this afternoon. I know that you have a personal commitment to ensuring that Welsh-medium education increases across the country, and I know that you have been pushing that throughout your time in post. But I have been dealing with constituents and others, and I have heard stories from around the country, where people have found increasing problems in terms of getting transport to Welsh-medium schools to ensure that people can receive Welsh-medium education and also complete their studies through the medium of Welsh. Is there a way that the Government can make a clear statement that we all have a right to receive our education, right through the school, through Welsh, and that councils have a responsibility to ensure that people can have that right and have Welsh-medium education?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Alun, yes indeed. All children in Wales have that right to receive their education through the medium of Welsh, if that's what they and their parents choose. Certainly, sometimes, parents and children face significant logistical disadvantage in accessing that right, often travelling significant distances to be able to enact that right. I am acutely aware of some of the changes with regard to post-16 travel that local authorities are consulting on. One of the strange things about Government is that I am not responsible for the learner travel policy. I'm sure many people would find it surprising that, as education Minister, I'm not responsible for it, but my colleague Ken Skates is, and I can assure the Member that my staff and the Minister with responsibility for the language overall are in discussions with Ken Skates on how we can address some of these challenges. Because what we know is that, in many areas, access to post-16 Welsh-medium provision is not available in a similar geographical way that it would be for English-medium tuition, and I don't want anybody not to have that opportunity of continuum because of some of these changes. And there are ongoing discussions in Government about how we can solve this.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I completely agree with Alun's question. Is a right really right when it's so easily frustrated by the ability of a local authority to say 'no' to transport? And I'm not just talking about post-16 transport, although, obviously, that's a very current issue in Neath Port Talbot in my own region. You alluded to this—I wanted to ask you: do you think the time has come for the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 to be replaced and for provision for free transport to the nearest Welsh-medium education to be included as a right, and that the issue of student transport is brought under the education portfolio, not the economy portfolio?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Presiding Officer, I should declare an interest. My own family had to appeal a transport decision for my own children's ability to access their Welsh-medium education, along with another group of Powys parents. So, I am very familiar with some of the issues that parents find when trying to make that very positive choice. And I think it's particularly important that we address these issues if we want to encourage more people to make that choice. Because unless they can see easy access but also a broad continuum throughout all stages of learning for Welsh medium, many parents, especially those from non-Welsh-speaking households, might not make the first step on that journey, and I want more parents to be able to do that. As I said, there are ongoing discussions between myself, the Minister, and the Minister for Economy and Transport about the learner travel Measure. Whether there's time at this point to completely review that piece of legislation, which, of course, means that nobody is entitled to post-16 travel regardless of language of tuition—those discussions are ongoing, because I recognise that there are specific issues related to the Welsh medium that potentially are putting parents and pupils at a disadvantage.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s 21st Century Schools Programme in Carmarthenshire? OAQ54172

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The first five-year phase of the twenty-first century schools and education programme will see £87 million invested in the rebuild and refurbishment of schools in Carmarthenshire. A further £129.5 million has been earmarked for the second phase of the programme from April 2019, subject, of course, to the usual process of business cases being dealt with.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Minister for her reply. I'd like to suggest, Minister, this afternoon—to offer you the opportunity to congratulate the governors, the local authority, staff and school pupils at Pontyberem school, which has had substantial investment from the twenty-first century schools fund and is going to be reopened on Monday. I know that you've received an invitation and, unfortunately, you're not able to be with us that day, but I think you will—and I hope that you will—acknowledge that it's been a really effective piece of work that's made really good use of existing estate, that we don't always have to build from scratch—even though sometimes we might want to—but we don't always need to build from scratch to make real difference to the environment in which our teachers are working in and in which our pupils are learning. I hope you will also join me in congratulating Carmarthenshire in being really proactive in making sure that they make the best use of those resources that are available. And, most of all, I hope that you'll wish the parents and pupils and all of us a really happy day on Monday, because it certainly is something to celebrate.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, can I thank the Member for bringing to the attention of the whole Assembly the official opening of Ysgol Ponyberem next week? I'm very disappointed that I'm not able to attend. One of the most wonderful aspects of being the Minister for Education is to be able to travel the length and breadth of the nation opening new buildings, whether that be a complete new build or very, very successful refurbishments or extensions on the existing school estate.

I'm sure the Member would share my ambition that children and those who educate and work with them deserve to do that important work in buildings that are fit for purpose and allow them to make the most of those opportunities. Although sometimes, perhaps, from time from time, relations between Welsh Government and local government can get a bit feisty, the strong partnership working between local authorities across Wales and the Welsh Government has made this capital investment programme, I think, one of the most successful capital programmes that the Welsh Government has enjoyed, because of that close partnership working between us and our local authorities. I commend all of those who are working really, really hard to get these buildings up and open and I hope they have a wonderful, wonderful day.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, the mutual investment model that finances most of the twenty-first century schools programme in Carmarthenshire and throughout the rest of Wales is a really welcome evolution from the old-fashioned PFI, but, of course, with all of these issues, there's always a balance to be had between loss of control and being able to be fiscally exposed. Now, the mutual investment model does have a fiscal exposure for the Government and for local authorities and I just wanted to understand a little bit more clearly what your opportunity and risk evaluation process is to ensure that things such as the lack of ability to profit-cap or cost overruns, project overruns, and, of course, the higher rate of borrowing—how that impacts the twenty-first century schools programme.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Angela, you're right; the MIM—the mutual investment model—does give us the opportunity as a Government, working alongside partners, to be able to lever in an additional £500 million-worth of resource into the programme, which allows us to complete even more refurbishment and new-build projects. That needs to be managed very carefully, and local authorities and FE colleges that are involved in that process need to be supported with the skills alongside the skills that they would have in-house. We're currently working as a Government with our partners to develop a model that will provide that support, which in turn itself will try and safeguard individual councils or colleges from the problems that you've just identified. And I'd be very happy to update Members when a final decision around that has been made, which is imminent.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

9. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support higher education institutions? OAQ54170

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Joyce. We continue to provide financial and regulatory support to the sector through HEFCW, which, together with our student support reforms, will create a stronger, more sustainable HE sector across the nation.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that answer, but last week, there was a worrying report in the media concerning the future of the Lampeter campus of the University of Wales Trinity Saint David, and in recent years there has been a decline in the number of departments, staff and students at that particular campus. Understandably, both the students and the local residents, and the businesses that depend on that university, are really concerned about the economic viability and the effects that will have on the wider community. They're especially concerned about the announcement by the university that they're looking to make a £6.5 million cut and 100 job cuts across their three campuses, which does include Carmarthen, Swansea and Lampeter. Can I ask, Minister, if you've had any discussions whatsoever with the university regarding the future of the Lampeter campus and the University of Wales Trinity Saint David?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Joyce. I spoke to the vice-chancellor of that institution last week and received a categorical assurance on the future of educational provision at the Lampeter campus from him.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that partnerships between higher education authorities and businesses are critical to ensure that the next generation have the knowledge and right skill sets to enter the workforce, which I'm sure will be very different in 10 years' time, given the adoption of automation and artificial intelligence. Naturally, these changes will require workers everywhere to deepen their existing skill sets or even acquire new ones. With this in mind, what is the Welsh Government doing to support higher education institutions to work with employers to make sure the workforce of the future has the necessary skills and knowledge to actually enter the workplace?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

If I can give the Member a concrete example of how we're doing just that, and that is our degree apprenticeship programme. That degree apprenticeship programme sees individuals based in the company for the vast majority of their time but undertaking some part-time study. That's not the same as thinking that those students just do a normal degree on a part-time basis; the programme that has been developed by the university has been done deliberately in partnership with those businesses that employ the student.

We've just heard a question about Trinity. I've been very fortunate to see for myself some of those involved in the Trinity Saint David digital degree apprenticeship programme—a young woman who decided to go down that route at 18 rather than the more traditional undergraduate programme. And we hope to extend the number of professions that are covered by degree apprenticeships later on this year, focusing especially on digital, engineering and other STEM subjects, thus allowing businesses and universities to work together to deliver a curriculum that truly meets the needs of individuals but also the wider economy.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 10—Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

10. How is the Welsh Government supporting pupils with additional learning needs into post-16 education? OAQ54153

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Mark. Welsh Government provides funding to local authorities, Careers Wales, and further education institutions to deliver services that support pupils with additional learning needs entering into post-16 education. Furthermore, our ambitious ALN reforms will deliver improved collaborative assessment, planning and monitoring of support provided to all learners with an ALN.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. After the Welsh Government announced in the last Assembly that placements to specialist colleges for students with learning difficulties and learning disabilities would normally now be for two years rather than three, I visited Derwen College in Gobowen just across the border, which takes students from England and Wales. The Welsh Government at the time responded by stating that this was flexible; it would consider individual cases according to individual circumstances and needs, and the college showed me that the third year was critical, because that's when they provide the direct work experience in partnership with employers locally. I've now been contacted by a Flintshire mum, whose son attends the college on a two-year placement, who, in a review meeting, has been told that students from England can still have three-year placements, but students from Wales only two, and the flexibility that was previously available has not been made available to her. What is your current position to enable or ensure that students who need that third year in Wales can access funding for it through the appropriate processes, or is it simply now a blanket 'no'?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

No, it's not at all a blanket 'no'. We would expect the majority of placements to last for two years, however, all these placements come to me, as Minister, for sign-off and I know that I have signed off, for this financial year, a number of three-year placements, because that three-year placement has been designated and decided is the most appropriate length of study for an individual student. And from time to time, we have requests that are brought forward to extend a two-year placement to a third year if that's in the best interest of the learners. So, there is absolute flexibility still in place within Wales, and the nature, whether it's two years or three years, or whether a two-year needs to extend into a third year is a matter of an individual's assessment, and there is no blanket policy of saying only two years.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next questions are questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services. The first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister and the question is to be asked by David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm sorry, Llywydd. I do apologise, Llywydd. That came upon us a little quickly, I'm afraid.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 1 is usually asked and expected to be asked. David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Deputy Minister, a large part of my casework is taken up with matters related to social services—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to ask the question on the order paper. Question 1, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I do apologise. Thank you.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

1. What assessment has the Minister made of the procedures for forced adoptions, in light of a recent increase in the number of cases? OAQ54158

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you for that question. Our primary aim is to support children to stay with their birth families where possible. Care decisions, including on adoption, are taken solely in the best interests of the child. The number of court-ordered adoptions has been falling, but we recognise that adoption can offer stable, loving families and good outcomes.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. A large part of my casework is taken up with matters related to social services, in particular with regard to the adoption services. This is not surprising given that, in the South Wales East region alone, some 280 children were referred for adoption in 2016-17—a massive 66 per cent increase on the previous year.

I understand that this trend has been replicated throughout Wales according to the National Adoption Service. It is laudable that the First Minister has recognised these trends, as outlined in yesterday's statement, and has issued instructions to attempt to alleviate what can only be called an epidemic of such adoptions. However, the decision of whether or not to remove a child from its birth family lies with the social worker involved, and as highlighted below, many of these decisions seem to be endemically flawed. One of my cases involved a child receiving a minor injury who was then removed from their family for six months, causing immense trauma to her parents and grandparents. It was subsequently found that there was no case to answer as far as neglect or the deliberate inflicting of this injury. Indeed, the child suffered far more injuries whilst in care, although these were such as one would normally associate with a young child growing up. Llywydd, we, on these benches, feel that there is an undeniably—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You're not addressing me; you need to ask your question of the Deputy Minister, and in having taken a long time to actually find your question, you're now taking a long time to ask your question. Can you please ask the question?

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Does the Minister not agree that there is an undeniably strong case for investigating the whole adoption service, especially given the spiralling cost to the public purse?

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

As I said in answer to the question that you read it out, what we're trying to do is to prevent children needing adoption by trying to keep them at home with their families. So, we're investing in edge of care services, which are now operating in all the regions in Wales. We've given £2.3 million to help prevent children who have been adopted coming back into care, which does happen because of the support that is needed for adoption. The decision to adopt is a very serious decision, as the Member recognises. It does require a decision by a court, so it's not at the whim of a social worker. It's very carefully thought out and it should be the last resort; every effort should have been made before you reach the situation where an adoption takes place, particularly if it is against the wishes of the natural birth parents. So, I think what we are doing in Wales is trying to shift the balance. We're trying to make sure that fewer children come into care and then need adoption, and for the ones who absolutely do need adoption, after making every effort to stop it happening, as much support as possible is given to make those adoptions successful.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

In yesterday's statement on improving outcomes for looked-after children, you mentioned, Minister, that you've seen the number of looked-after children in Wales increase by 34 per cent over the past 15 years, and you've promised to look at this closely. I wonder if you have or you would consider launching an investigation into the rise of looked-after children as part of this process.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I think it's very difficult to know what has actually caused this rise in the number of children, and I know that there have been calls to look at why this has actually happened. It does seem to be for multiple reasons, and it's very difficult to actually choose one particular reason. But, certainly, in the work that we're doing now on trying to prevent children coming into care—I mean that 34 per cent is an alarming figure and we certainly don't want that to go on, and that's why we're working with all the local authorities in Wales to try and bring things down. During the process of this very intensive work we're doing, we will look to see what more needs to be done, because it is alarming and if it continues to go on, it will be very bad news.

Neil McEvoy (Independent, South Wales Central)

I fully support your policy and the direction it's going, I think the issue is that filtering down, because, on the ground level, children seem to be taken into care far too easily. So, my question is: how can we empower parents? Could we create a professional advocacy service for parents? Because there seems to be a blanket thing called avoiding future emotional harm, and child after child after child is being taken into care, put up for adoption. I'm trying to support one mother at this moment whose life has been ruined by her interaction with children's services. And she took the step of aborting her unborn child to avoid it being taken into care, and that whole family is devastated. What strikes me, with case after case after case, is the complete lack of rights and the complete lack of empowerment. And if you're a parent who's been through the care system yourself, then you are treated in an appalling manner sometimes. So, how can we empower parents?

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

One of the things we are doing is setting up the Reflect project, which the Member may know about, which is for women who have actually had a child already taken off them, so they have already got one child in the care system. So, the Reflect project is an effort to try to stop that happening again. So, again, we've got that project rolled out all over Wales. It's not enough, there's a huge amount that needs to be done, and I absolutely agree that we have to give as much support as we can for parents to keep their children, and we do have a long way to go. But we are doing it with the support that we are giving and, in particular, I would recommend that the Member looks at the Reflect project, which looks at the particular sort of case that he describes.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

2. Will the Minister provide an update on recent efforts to supplement primary care with support from pharmacies? OAQ54167

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Community pharmacy has a significant role to play in delivering primary care in Wales today. Real progress has been made through new contractual arrangements that support clinical service delivery, collaboration and quality improvement. Choose Pharmacy is now available in 98 per cent of pharmacies across Wales and I have provided over £4.5 million this year to enhance training within the profession.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Minister for that reply, and I strongly support the Welsh Government's policy of using pharmacists more to supplement primary care, but I've had two cases from Dwyfor Meirionnydd in my region of patients who left a medicines use review with the pharmacist under the false belief that they'd been asked to modify their medicine regimes. The source of the confusion wasn't exactly clear here, and it was subsequently rectified by their GP, so no harm was actually done. But there does seem to be potentially a systemic problem here whereby the health board has to have a record of the MUR having taken place, and the patient has to sign that, but in these particular instances there wasn't any written record, either electronic or paper, that provided details of the advice or recommendations that had been given in the review. The potential safety risk to a patient with memory or comprehension problems is obvious, so I wonder what might be done to introduce a more rigorous regulatory check for medicines use reviews conducted by pharmacists to try to reduce these problems to the absolute minimum.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There's a risk in every interaction with the healthcare profession where advice is given, and it's either written down or not written down in terms of how the person is able to or chooses to use that information and that advice. Part of the point about the roll-out of Choose Pharmacy is that it allows pharmacists as regulated healthcare professionals themselves to make entries onto the GP record. We see that already with the common ailments service that's been rolled out. I'm always interested in hearing more specific examples of what's gone on, if it's individual practice or if it tells us something at a system level. So if the Member wants to write to me with the detail of the incident, then I can consider that with officials and with the health board, whether it is indeed an individual matter to be taken up or if it does tell us something that we need to address at a system level.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I was pleased to visit a community pharmacy in my constituency earlier this week, and I had a very positive conversation with the pharmacist about the services he offers and indeed some of the challenges he faces as well. One of the issues he raised was the NHS computer system, which is used to store patient information. He feels he's greatly hampered by the long-winded process of logging on to a computer system that appears to struggle to download basic information. Whilst, of course, personal data must be kept secure, I'm told that on occasion it can actually take up to 20 minutes to get through the security logins to provide a service for the patient that should only take around five minutes. I'm sure the Minister will agree with me that it's important to access information in a timely manner, especially when a patient is waiting. Will he and his officials therefore look into this matter to make sure that pharmacies are able to provide an efficient service, given that pharmacies are providing more and more services to patients?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, again, if the Member writes to me with the details of the matter I can look at whether it's an individual issue or a system-wide issue for us to address. But, overall, we have an ambitious programme for community pharmacy already as part of the primary care team as it exists, and a bigger role to play in the future—not just the common ailments system, but it's also why we're taking a different approach to other countries in the UK. Across the border there's a 7 per cent cash reduction in community pharmacy; over 120 community pharmacies have closed. We've maintained our investment, we've increased it, we have further ambition for the future, and we're deliberately rolling out access to GP systems to make sure that pharmacists can enter information into it, and that's what Choose Pharmacy is designed to help to deliver: access to information so that it's available, and that will then allow us to provide even more services in the community pharmacy sector.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and the Conservative spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I'm sure you're aware of the eye disease keratoconus, which can lead to patients completely losing their sight. Can you please explain why the recognised treatment for this disease is not available on the Welsh NHS?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I've had correspondence with a number of Members on this in different parts of the country, and about some of the challenges. It is about our skill mix and ability to deliver the right treatment as recommended by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. It is something that we are deliberately working through and I've had correspondence with Members, as I say, in different parties on it. It's about the capacity and ability of our system to deliver all that we would wish to.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, for £2,000 you can nip down to the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend—which, the last time I looked, was an NHS hospital—and you can pay an NHS surgeon, in his spare time, for £2,000, to actually give you the treatment that saves the sight in your eye. I fail to see that that's to do with capacity; I think it's to do with will. Will you undertake to look at this process? It's called cross-linking: for those who do not know, your cornea, instead of being a smooth curve like the planet, becomes like a mountain range. The use of this LED light helps to flatten it—not always, but sometimes it does come back. But my goodness me, if you can get another six months, one year, or two years more sight for £2,000, I fail to understand why we're not doing it. Will you please look at this?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'd be happy to look at it, but it's not a matter of will. It is always about how we use the resources we have. And it's not just about money, it's about people. And we're going to have a debate later today about eye-care measures, and the determination we do have as a Government, together with the health service, to save the sight of more people, and have measures that promote that activity, to make sure we actually address sight loss before it actually takes place.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, it's entirely about money and about resources. And, as I've said, you've got the resources there—I can pop you in my car, drive you down there, and show you them. The money is not very great. I totally understand that if you're talking about a very, very expensive treatment, then you might look at the cost-benefit analysis. I can totally understand that, if you're talking about an illness where there are a number of different solutions, and this just happens to be one in the mix, and one we choose not to support for whatever reason. But this is the only treatment. Once you've gone blind, you then have to go onto a waiting list for a corneal transplant—they're not easy. So, my constituent, who's 19 years old, and is a student, went and borrowed £2,000 off his employer, because nobody told him about the IPF. He borrowed £2,000, and went and had one of his eyes done; he's now scoping for the other £2,000 to have the other eye done. He's 19 years old—he doesn't want to go blind, he's got his whole life ahead of him. And the question he asked me to ask you is: 'Why, for the cost of £2,000, are the Welsh NHS happy to see me lose my sight?'

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The Welsh NHS is not happy to see people lose their sight. I think that's a very unfortunate way to end the contribution. Because this is about resource and capacity, it is about people who can undertake the work, and it's about having a system that can deliver in a way that is properly equitable. I'm more than happy to engage in correspondence with the Member, to address the issues that she raises, and the broader point about how the whole healthcare system addresses that.FootnoteLink Because the NHS is an organisation that delivers great volume and great benefits to the public, but there is always room for improvement. And I hope that we can recognise that in all of our interactions, within and outside the Chamber.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the latest figures show that the median response time for amber calls has more than doubled, from around 12 minutes to around 26 minutes, over the last three years. Do you think that matters?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, it matters. But the challenge that we have set out for our ambulance system is to prioritise those with the greatest need, where the fastest response will make the biggest difference. That's why—before, admittedly, you came into the Chamber in this incarnation—the clinical review process was undertaken, to understand which conditions should have an eight-minute response time, and which should not, but would still have a blue light response. And the evidence does tell us that those that are in the eight-minute category—the red category—it does make a difference if there's a really fast response. Those in the amber category do have an urgent care need, and will receive a blue light response, but it is less urgent, and will make less of a difference. And, actually—and I've reiterated this many times over when we talk about ambulance response times—the approach that we have led on and taken here in Wales has been copied across the United Kingdom. The SNP Government in Scotland have taken a broadly similar approach. Even the Conservatives in England have borrowed our approach, although you won't hear a Conservative Minister stand up and say they're doing that.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I don't think my concern is about the overall approach, but my concern is about the knock-on effects for particular conditions. A freedom of information request from my office showed 4,038 patients waiting longer than an hour for an ambulance to arrive when they had a stroke, between January 2018 and March this year. Strokes are a life-threatening emergency; when they're not life-threatening, they can absolutely devastate people's lives. Is it acceptable that we have over 4,000 people waiting for longer than an hour for this very distressing, and, in many cases, life-threatening medical emergency?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

No, which is why I set out and instigated the amber review process that took place—again led by clinicians working in the service. I gave a statement on this within the last few months—on setting out the reform and improvement programme that has taken place. I've directed the Chief Ambulance Services Commissioner for Wales and the emergency ambulance services committee to undertake that programme of work to deliver the improvement that is required and possible. So, this is not an area of complacency—far from it. We made a real healthcare gain within our system by changing the way we measure and drive performance within the ambulance system. We've had a review to look at the amber category and what further progress we can make. That's what I'm determined to do and it's what I spent some time on my feet responding to questions on within the last few weeks and months.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Indeed you did, Minister, and I suspect you will carry on needing to respond to those questions until we've got answers that our constituents are wholly satisfied with.

You know how devastating, I know—there's no need for me to tell you how devastating the after-effects off stroke can be. You also know how important it is that that whole pathway, from the emergency call to the actual treatment, is done in a timely manner. There are costs to that, but also there are potentially huge cost savings, because if the treatment is given quickly enough, we're going to have patients who will fully recover, whereas otherwise, they might be permanently dependent on health and social care.

Now the Stroke Association has called on you to set targets from the time of that emergency call to the treatment being delivered. That is being done elsewhere. I'm very pleased to hear you say, and I know it's true, that other Governments are learning from some good things that we're doing here in Wales on healthcare. Is this an example of where you might need to learn from somewhere else? You are prepared to set binding targets for some aspects of services, which is absolutely correct. Will you reconsider your decision not to set, at this point, a binding target for that treatment time, from the emergency call to the actual treatment being delivered, for patients suffering from stroke?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I understand the call that's been made by the Stroke Association; I understand the reason why they made the call. But, again, we've just had a clinically led review of the amber category and it did consider this. The Stroke Association are part of the work that is being done to take that forward. And, again, if the evidence changes, then I'm more than prepared to look again at that evidence and whether it's still the right decision. But at this point in time, it would just be dishonest for me to say that I'm going to look again at a recent review that's taken place when, in the last few months, I've reported to this Chamber on the work that I've already outlined. That does not mean that that is a decision for now and evermore; it means that, at this point, the evidence doesn't support the call that's been made by the Stroke Association. But, as ever, we should be prepared to learn and recognise, when evidence changes, to shift decisions to make sure that we're delivering the right service for people right across the country.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Brexit Party spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the outgoing chair of the Swansea Bay University Health Board has said that the LHB's officials are forced to take part in three or four conference calls a day with Welsh Government. He accuses you of micromanaging the health board and getting in the way of sorting out the problems facing the health board. Minister, do you agree with this analysis that your Government is holding the health board back from making improvements to the NHS in my region?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

No, I don't share the view of the outgoing chair of the Swansea Bay University Health Board. I think it's important that there is a link, and Members in this place and in committees regularly encourage, if not demand, that I and my officials, take an even greater role in holding parts of the health service to account and intervene on an even more granular level than we do presently. But certainly through the winter, there are regular conference calls with every health board about performance, particularly in the unscheduled care system. There is always going to be a balance about where you intervene and where you ask and where you scrutinise and where you leave trusted parts of the system to progress. It's part of the reason we have an escalation framework that sets out the level of confidence in different parts of our system. But on some of those big key touchstone areas of activity, where it's recognised there are real issues for patients, we do have regular conversations with the health boards, and I don't apologise for that.

But I would say, though, as we're talking about the outgoing chair of Swansea Bay University Health Board, that during the time of his period in office as a chair, they've had some real challenges to address within the health board and he has been a part of making sure that they do address those challenges. And there is a real improvement trajectory now for Swansea Bay University Health Board and Andrew Davies has real credit to claim for having been part of doing that. We won't always see eye to eye, just as we didn't when he was rather more active in elected politics, but that's part of the business of doing a job like this—not everyone agrees with you, including people who you even share the same party with, as we all know.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister. Until April of this year, residents of Bridgend fell under that health board. They're now covered by Cwm Taf, which, while still under joint escalation and intervention arrangements, aren't as bad as the former ABMULHB. However, that's not helping patients in Bridgend. Last week, one of my elderly constituents, also a friend, had a stroke and was injured as a result. He waited nearly three hours for an ambulance and he also waited nine hours at the accident and emergency department at the Royal Glamorgan, as the Princess of Wales was full. He's 85 years of age. So, Minister, when can patients living in Bridgend expect to see improvements to the NHS under Cwm Taf?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Cwm Taf Morgannwg, as the new health board, is now responsible for the operation of the health service within Bridgend, and I expect to see phased improvement across every part of our service and not just the Cwm Taf Morgannwg area. Again, if we look at the regular experience of people within our healthcare system, they are seen promptly and compassionately. I was reflecting on a number of events today about where healthcare goes wrong, it has a huge impact on people's lives, both the experience of healthcare and when technically the healthcare goes wrong as well. But also, our healthcare system is a high-quality system and it's part of the reason why, when it doesn't go right, it's thrown into such sharp relief. If the Member wants to write to me, or indeed directly to the health board, to have an investigation into the individual circumstances, I'd be happy to look at it. But I'm of course interested in how we improve the whole system to make sure that fewer and fewer people have the experience that she described and more and more people have the standard experience of high-quality, timely and compassionate care.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 3 [OAQ54183] was withdrawn. Question 4—John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

4. What further action will the Welsh Government take to tackle health inequalities in Wales? OAQ54163

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It is a central ambition of this Government that everyone in Wales has a fair opportunity to live a healthy life, irrespective of their background or where they live. We will continue to take a whole-Government approach to tackling the root causes of health inequalities.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Minister, one major issue that we have to make further progress in tackling is smoking prevalence in Wales. Thankfully, we have made substantial progress, but, as always, there is more work to do, and it's particularly relevant, I think, to some of our more deprived communities. The recent student health and well-being in Wales survey showed that, of year 11 school pupils, 15 to 16-year-olds, 9 per cent smoke regularly, which has remained more or less static since 2013-14. And in the least affluent areas, in the last four years, smoking prevalence in that age group has risen from 4 per cent to 6 per cent. I know that ASH Wales believes that we need to target action more effectively in our poorer communities and measure progress in terms of those targeted measures on a regular basis. Would you agree that that's one part of the way forward in dealing with these very important issues around health inequalities in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm genuinely interested in not just what the evidence tells us but where there is innovation as well for parts of our healthcare system and the outcomes we deliver and the reality that health inequalities exist in virtually every area of experience and outcomes. I know that ASH have been particularly interested in developing services that are aimed at young people and are effective in getting young people to engage in smoking cessation but equally messages about not taking up smoking in the first place. I know that my officials have regular contact with ASH Wales. And, as I say, I'm always interested about the evidence base that they are developing, and for some of their interventions, we've provided support for some of those in the past, but this will have to be a significant area of activity, because as well as encouraging people to give up smoking, the best port of call, of course, is for us not to take up smoking in the first place. Life lessons and attitudes undertaken before people leave school are a huge important part of that.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, in Wales, along with the rest of the United Kingdom, there are marked health inequalities between those living in the most deprived communities and those living in the most affluent areas. Childhood obesity is no exception. More than 28 per cent of children living in the most deprived areas are either overweight or obese compared to less than 21 per cent in the least deprived areas. Twice as many children living in Merthyr Tydfil are obese compared to those living in the Vale of Glamorgan. Since tackling childhood obesity lies not only in the remit of the health departments, Minister, what are you doing to encourage combined action across Government to tackle this problem in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, this is, of course, something that we're actively considering with our healthy weight strategy across Wales, and how we use the powers that we have across the Welsh Government in all devolved areas to try to make a real difference—the environment that we live in, the advertising and, indeed, what we can do not just to make unhealthier choices about food and drink more difficult, but actually to positively promote more healthy choices. And I would just say that, given the times that we're in and the leadership contest that I'm not participating in that's taking place at present, one of the candidates is suggesting getting rid of the sugar tax. I don't always agree with what the Conservative Government does—and most of the time I don't—but I actually think introducing the sugar tax was a good thing to do. I do not think there is any evidence to support scrapping the sugar tax being a good thing for helping us to tackle obesity across the United Kingdom. And I hope that those Conservative Members who have a vote in the contest will consider that and the impact of any other future choices that will be made, because it will have a real impact on our families and children here in Wales and not just in other parts of the United Kingdom.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on actions the Welsh Government is taking to improve community health services? OAQ54184

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. The Welsh Government has published 'A Healthier Wales', which sets out our vision and action plan for seamless, sustainable and accessible health and well-being services in our communities.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Well, thank you for that answer, Minister, and I appreciate and applaud the actions that the Welsh Government are taking to actually help people to go back into their homes and back into their communities, because we all know that you can get better in your home if you feel more comfortable, but you have to be safe and you have to be supported. And to do that, you need several things. You've already mentioned community pharmacies as an example of community healthcare services, but there are many others, and resourcing those is one of the issues. We need to ensure that those services are resourced so that, when people do go back, they're able to be supported.

Now, on many occasions I've had situations where district nurses and community nurses are struggling to face some of the workloads they have, and that then is on top of, perhaps, practices and GP practices merging and having difficulties. Now, you're welcome to come up to the Afan valley to see some of the challenges they are facing in that community, both in GP services and in community services, but what are you going to do to ensure that those services are resourced when there are challenges with GP services as well, so that we don't have one part of the service failing and another part then trying to catch up and deliver what it shouldn't be doing?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

That's part of what lies at the heart of our joint approach in 'A Healthier Wales', across health and social care. And if you look at the areas of the transformation fund projects within Aberavon and more broadly, not just in the county of Neath Port Talbot, but across Swansea and Neath Port Talbot as well, you'll see the Our Neighbourhood approach, which is about building on community assets, understanding what is there already to help support people to make different choices. That's not just about the health service; it's about all the different assets within a neighbourhood. That's being led within the Neath Port Talbot part of the health board and regional partnership board are. But also, all of the seven primary care clusters are working together on a whole-system approach. So it is about positively looking and how they understand what they could and should do differently—not just GPs, not just the multidisciplinary team grouped around each of the practices, but the other community services that exist.

On the general point, I'd be happy, as we're going to look through progress within the transformation fund, to consider a visit to one of those clusters in your patch to see the work they're actually doing on the ground.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I was very interested in what you had to say then about community assets, Minister. Your dementia action plan for 2018-22 states that the Welsh Government will get local authorities and health boards to work with local communities and the third sector organisations in them to encourage them to make services accessible to people with dementia, as well as their families and their carers. Can you just confirm that health boards and councils are doing that in my region, and how, at this stage, services look different for families affected by dementia?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, we've had regular conversations, and I'll be reporting back on the implementation of the dementia strategy. I was at the recent cross-party group as well, and my officials attend that too, to be able to set out what's working. So, that investment will be happening over time, and a new framework will be coming out on allied healthcare professionals, as one of the big parts of the plan is the role of allied healthcare professionals in delivering services and linking people together. So, I think you will see progress being made in every part of the country, not just in the Swansea Bay University Health Board area, together with its local authority partners. And, of course, we've got an assurance group that includes people living with dementia themselves, to confirm whether those services are being delivered progressively and whether they're seeing that difference on the ground.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I haven't got a supplementary on this, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Okay. Question 6, [OAQ54146], has been withdrawn. Question 7, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of services to tackle gambling addiction in Wales? OAQ54152

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you. The Welsh Government has been working across portfolios to identify action that can be taken to reduce the prevalence of problem gambling and the impact it has upon both health and our wider society. We continue to hold discussions to determine how existing services can be used to support problem gamblers.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Minister, thank you for that answer. There is growing recognition across the whole of the UK and further afield of the epidemic emerging of gambling addiction, partly as a result of the massive expansion of online gambling. And it was at least encouraging to notice that within NHS England, 14 clinics are being set up with a view to providing addiction advice, but what is noticeable is, of course, that is partly funded, I understand, by the rather meagre voluntary contributions from the gambling industry itself via the Gambling Commission. I was wondering what steps may have been taken or could be taken by the Welsh Government to ensure that there is proper funding from those funds that are raised in Wales for gambling support, and whether you have any plans to meet with or to approach the Gambling Commission to ensure that, within Wales, there is equal support and provision of this much-needed area of gambling addiction support.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, I am aware of the announcements that have been made for the specialist provision. We already, actually, do refer some people into specialist provision across the border. I agree with the broad point the Member makes that, actually, a voluntary levy I think is unlikely to deliver the sort of responsible behaviour that we wish to see or, indeed, the resource. That isn't a view that is only held by people in our party; you'll recall that the then Minister, Tracey Crouch, resigned on a point of principle because the Government were not proposing to take forward measures on fixed-odds betting terminals. They subsequently did that, and, again, that was work across parties, with Carolyn Harris from my own party and others doing the work. So, there is a broader recognition in more than one part of the UK and in more than one party that this is a real challenge across society.

There is work that is going on between the different health departments. The chief medical officer continues to lead work on this, following his report last year. There's regular engagement between him and both GambleAware and the Gambling Commission. I think it might be helpful for those Members—and I know they're in more than one party—who are interested in an update, if I were to arrange for the chief medical officer to provide an update on the work that's already been done and what that looks like, and then have a further report back on any further progress that is potentially being made on the issue of a compulsory levy, because my own personal view is that, without a compulsory levy, we won't see the sort of behavioural change of people who provide gambling opportunities and environments and, indeed, the resource that should come in to deal with the real harm that is caused.FootnoteLink

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I welcome the action that's been taken to date but, of course, we can always do more, and I would absolutely want to see some more of the investment from the gambling industry, via the Gambling Commission, coming into Wales in order to develop our services and treatment centres for those with addictions. I hosted the annual conference with Beat the Odds last week on problem gambling, and it was focusing very much on young people and children in that particular forum this year. Can I ask what specific services might be available for children and young people who are actively now gambling through the gaming system online in games such as Star Wars and FIFA, where they have these sorts of loop boxes that give very, very terrible odds, and they're actually resulting in some young children gambling many thousands and losing many thousands of pounds of their family's income? I think it's a growing feature of the gambling landscape. It's something that now Disney is even cottoning on to. That's unacceptable. We need to get to grips with these issues. Can I ask whether there are going to be tailored services for children and young people within the ambit of the services that are being prepared and developed by the Welsh Government and, if so, how are we going to communicate the availability of those and the dangers of gambling to young people in our society?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Actually, the new clinics have a particular focus on children and young people, which are being provided, but the challenge goes back to Mick Antoniw's point about the real capacity to do so, because the reason why games are being monetised in this way is exactly that: it's a way of raising income. And part of the issues that I raised with my colleague Julie James in her previous role was that we wrote jointly to the Gambling Commission about the way that the ability to gamble and adverts promoting gambling are associated with activities that are deliberately targeted at children and young people, not just from the world of online gaming but mainstream activities like sport as well. The number of football teams, for example, that have a high-profile gambling sponsor and the adverts that take place well before the watershed, I think, are a real problem. They're contributing to the problem and not helping us to address this, and I'm pleased to see there's some cross-party agreement on this because we're not where we need to be right now, in my view.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

8. Will the Minister provide an update on progress with the construction of the Grange University Hospital? OAQ54161

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. I'm happy to confirm that progress with the construction of the new Grange university hospital that I authorised is on track, on budget and due to open in the spring of 2021. It will provide a 470-bed hospital for the population of south-east Wales.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

A very to-the-point answer there, Minister. Thank you for that. I've had a couple of visits to the hospital, one with you. It's an impressive building, and I'm pleased to hear that it's on track. A couple of questions: since the building was commissioned, the Welsh Government has declared the climate emergency. There is an obligation on all public buildings to keep their carbon footprints down as low as possible, so I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the renewables side of the building and how it is meeting those obligations. Secondly, one feature of the hospital that makes it stand out amongst other similar buildings is its extensive and stunning landscaped grounds, which date back to the time of the Llanfrechfa Grange House. Those grounds are seen as integral to part of the rehabilitation of people who have been suffering from illnesses and operations at the hospital. Can you tell us how you plan to—I was going to say 'to build upon', but that's the wrong expression, isn't it? [Laughter.] How do you plan to make the most of those landscaped grounds in terms of keeping the building as renewable as possible? I think that there is an opportunity here for tree planting and to really make a statement with those grounds to make sure that the whole site operates not just as a rehabilitation centre for people but also as a carbon sink?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I'm delighted to confirm not only the work being done on the nearby gardens—there's a voluntary group doing that work—but that it will be a much more efficient building than most of the NHS estate. Of course, much of the NHS estate was created several years ago, in the past. It's a building being built to the highest architectural standards, and there will be a significant saving in both energy efficiency as well as the modern heat and power plant on site as well.

When it comes to tree planting, funnily enough, it was a question that I asked on one of my visits, and there will be significant tree planting in and around the Grange university hospital. That's part of the view that people want to have as well as some of the well-noted challenges. I saw comrade Melding on the roof next to beehives in this place, and you can expect to see the deliberate planting of blossom and other trees and plants within the grounds to deal with exactly the point he mentioned.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

9. Will the Minister make a statement about the number of antibiotic resistant infections recorded in the last available 12-month period? OAQ54185

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Antibiotic-resistant infections are not currently recorded, but work to do so is under way as reduction in the numbers is an ambition of the jointly agreed new UK antimicrobial resistance strategy that all four nations of the UK have signed up to. The level of bacterial resistance to antimicrobials is monitored in Wales on an ongoing basis, and regular reports will be published.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you, Minister. There's been a 44 per cent increase in syphilis in the last year and a 32 per cent increase in gonorrhoea. And what concerns me most about that, talking to sexual health experts, is that a significant proportion of the presenting infections are the antibiotic-resistant forms of those. I appreciate that you have accepted the sexual health review recommendations to reduce the transmission of sexually transmitted infections, and I just wondered how much that task is hampered by the level of antibiotic-resistant versions of this, because, obviously, in the past, this was something that people died of. With antibiotics, people are able to survive and continue to live normal lives. We are in danger of going back to the nineteenth century.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, you're correct, and within the last two years for which we have figures, there's been a 79 per cent increase in syphilis and a 47 per cent increase in gonorrhoea. There is concern across the world, in particular when it comes to gonorrhoea, that there are infections that are becoming resistant to antibiotics. Now, we've not seen that strain within Wales yet. Chlamydia infections remain stable. The challenge still is about behaviour, things that we are in control of, and that's part of the challenge about the new sexual health strategy, about our engagement with people who are most at risk and how we have a conversation about education as opposed to resolving this at the treatment end. The chief medical officer has asked Public Health Wales to consider what more needs to be done to minimise the risk posed by these infections and a number of recommendations are being taken forward and they'll be considered at the next sexual health programme board, and I would, of course, make sure that, as there is more progress to update from that sexual health programme board, I'll provide a written statement to Members to make sure you're all sighted on improvement.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I think the World Health Organization has said that antibiotic resistance could be one of the major health challenges we face, as common infections once again become common killers if we don't get this right and there are fewer new drugs coming on board. One thing we could do is to encourage people, instead of going to the doctor in search of an antibiotic for a common cold or a sore throat or something, to first go and see their pharmacist, because that, probably, will lead to better treatment and will avoid the use of antibiotics when they're not appropriate.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I completely agree and it's part of our challenge: we're generally trying to persuade people that they don't need to go to the doctor and to come away with a set of pills to have a good service. Often, it is about persuading people there are different options, including self-care, and different ways to access healthcare as well. With the common ailments service that we've introduced, in just the first five months of this year, approximately 20,000 people have visited pharmacies across Wales as part of that service. Around 80 per cent of those people would otherwise have gone to see their GP, and, more than that, the pilot within Betsi Cadwaladr on the sore throat treat and test service is again a real opportunity to roll out exactly the sort of practice that you recognised. It goes back to the question earlier from Paul Davies about our community pharmacy services and building on them—sorry, it was Neil Hamilton's question, with a supplementary from your party colleague, but there is, again, general agreement that it's the right thing to do. There's much more gain to be made from doing it, and, actually, much better access for the public to healthcare services.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No topical questions were selected.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And so the 90-second statements are next and the first statement is from Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Llywydd. This is Co-operatives Fortnight, organised by Co-operatives UK, bringing together, for two weeks of mass co-operation, the workers, the members, the rebels, the citizens, the residents, the owners, the sharers and the millions of co-operators across the UK to mark Co-operatives Fortnight and celebrate—this statement being part of it—what can be achieved when we co-operate.

In Leeds, the Digital Cooperative Development Consortium Ltd will host a weekend digital hack for tech co-operators. In Northampton, there's a film screening of the Pioneers, the inspirational story of the birth of co-operation more than 175 years ago, and a marketplace featuring local co-operatives. In Plymouth, as part of the fortnight and Community Energy Fortnight, Plymouth Energy Community are hosting a Bee—as in the buzzy bee—Solar party at their community-owned solar array. And, in Scotland, Scotmid Co-op colleagues will hold 13 litter picks right across Scotland, supplying litter picking equipment to local communities and helping 1,500 groups to get involved in keeping their surroundings beautiful. And, in Cardiff, Wales Co-operative Centre hosted a lunch for co-op leaders to celebrate the positive impact of co-op businesses and explore new working partnerships, where it was great to hear the announcement of £3 million of EU funds supporting a new project that will help create new social businesses across west Wales and the Valleys, with the Social Business Wales New Start initiative led by the Wales Co-operative Centre aiming to create 200 social businesses over the next three years. This is the power of co-operation and what we can achieve when we work together, and I'm proud to say that this National Assembly has helped us celebrate Co-operatives Fortnight 2019.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Diolch. Swansea: 50 years a city. This morning, I was in Tabernacle Chapel in Morriston celebrating, in the presence of the Prince of Wales, the fiftieth anniversary of Swansea being made a city. Fifty years to today, and two days after his investiture, the Prince of Wales, on his tour of Wales, he visited Swansea. On the steps of the Guildhall he announced that Swansea was going to be designated a city. Swansea was the second Welsh town to be granted city status, although it had to wait until 15 December before it formally received its letters patent from the Queen.

On that day, the Prince of Wales made a return journey to the new city to grant the charter to the people and the civic dignitaries of Swansea at the Brangwyn Hall. Two immediate changes occurred: at the first opportunity, Swansea Town Football Club changed its name to Swansea City; the mayor of Swansea became lord mayor, joining 23 English cities and Cardiff in Wales in being able to use the title 'lord mayor'.

Earlier this year I was pleased to attend the council's launch of its fiftieth anniversary of Swansea becoming a city, and a lot has been done in the city to celebrate that major achievement. And it's had a mindset change: we're no longer an 'ugly, lovely town' but now an outward-looking and vibrant city.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

This coming Saturday, 6 July, the Maindee Festival will take place in Newport. It is a major event and a highlight of the summer and cultural life in my constituency. The festival association was founded in 1997 and it has organised and raised funds for annual events ever since. It begins with a spectacular parade in which everyone gets dressed up and joins the giant figures, bands of musicians and dancers, ending at the venue in the primary school grounds.

Maindee is an ethnically diverse community, constantly changing and evolving but coming together around a day to celebrate difference and common humanity with art, music and dance, food and drink. In these times of worrying division all over the world and close to home, opportunities to embrace unity in our communities, break down barriers and aid social cohesion are crucial. This year's theme of 'Making Maindee', which aims to recognise everything that makes our neighbourhood so vibrant and rich, could not be more appropriate.

I pay tribute to the charity and its hard working and talented committee and volunteers who give so much time and energy to make the day a success, engaging people across cultures. And, of course, I pay tribute to our wonderfully diverse community, who take part and go along in ever greater numbers year on year.

5. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: Health Service Management

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal, and that is on health service management, and the motion is from Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and it's my pleasure and privilege to present this legislative proposal to the Senedd today. It has been a bit of a habit amongst politicians in Wales sometimes to say, 'We have too many managers in the NHS; they're not doing their jobs properly'. I've probably been guilty of that in the past myself, but the truth is that we will not deliver the kinds of services that our constituents—every single one of our constituents—want and need unless we have a service that is effectively managed.

Now, it's also absolutely true that we have many excellent managers working at all levels in our NHS in Wales, and they strive and succeed in planning and delivering, with their clinical colleagues, excellent services. But there can be none of us in this Chamber who are not aware of the widely shared concerns about capacity, sometimes about competence, and certainly about consistency of performance in the management of our services. And there are very valid concerns about accountability. So, this is why I propose to us today a Bill on health service management. What exactly we might call it—an NHS accountability and transparency Bill—that could be for further debate. But the purpose of this Bill, its main purpose, would be to establish a professional body for NHS managers in Wales. Now, this has been portrayed in some sections of the press and by some responding to the debate as an attack on the service. It is definitely not that. What it is actually doing is acknowledging the huge importance of managers to the effectiveness of the service, and, if we gave them a proper professional body that registered them, we would be putting their contribution on a par with their clinical colleagues, and I think that definitely deserves consideration.

So, I'm proposing a role for this professional body to set core professional competencies for people in management and administration at all levels, that these competencies should be value based. If you're training as a nurse, the very first thing you get is training in the values that the service expects for you. We don't currently offer that consistently to those administering and managing the services.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

We would need core competencies set at every level, and those competencies would be based on this value-based training. A professional body could require continuous professional development to ensure that those managing our services are able to keep up to date with all the requirements on them and all the developments that go around them. Some, particularly middle management managers, say to me that they are overwhelmed, sometimes, by change. They don't resent the expectations of Welsh Government of the service that they're going to deliver, but they need to be empowered to do that properly.

So, this is about valuing those who manage our NHS. It's about giving them the tools to do the job and it's about ensuring that everybody else knows what can be expected in terms of competence, knowledge and skills from people managing at different levels in our service. Now, of course, one aspect of this registration would be that, if a manager persistently failed, or if a manager was having trouble doing their job, their professional body would, as it would with a nurse or a doctor, step in and prescribe advice, prescribe training, prescribe support. But, if that was not successful, in the end, this professional body would have the right to strike a manager off and say, 'You are not a fit-and-proper person to undertake the management of our service'. That is not the main function of the legislation that I'm proposing, but it is a sanction, and it would end a pattern that we've seen—and I have no intention today, Presiding Officer, to name names—of persons in very senior roles in parts of our service failing to manage those services effectively, disappearing for a while and then popping up somewhere else managing another aspect of the service and not doing it well. That is totally unfair; it's totally unfair to the patients, it's totally unfair to the clinical staff, but it is also totally unfair to those working in management in the service who want to be able to do that effectively.

I realise that this is a huge piece of work—this is not something that could be achieved by a private Member's Bill—but just because it's a huge piece of work does not mean to say that we shouldn't set out to do it. I remember being told in this place that it would be impossible and much too complex to register healthcare support workers. Well, we're doing that now. And I think we need to be equally ambitious around what we offer to those who manage our services.

I would also see this legislation properly establishing the independence of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. Members will remember that the committee, back in 2014, was very concerned that it hadn't received reassurances about the role of the inspectorate, that it wasn't suitably independent. Now, I know the Minister has got some long-term plans to do something about this, but I would remind him that he said that the NHS quality Bill that would be coming forward would address this issue of HIW independence and the draft we have before us does not.

My proposed legislation would also place a duty of candour, not just on organisations, which, of course, is commendable, but on individuals. Where we most need that duty of candour is where people need to be empowered to speak up within organisations that will not exercise their duty of candour. And simply putting that responsibility on organisations will not deliver what I'm sure the Minister intends. We also need a robust, consistent, transparent complaints system that is truly independent and trusted for patients and we need to look again at how successful our whistleblowing policies are, because my experience and my postbag tells me that they are not.

This is a matter of the utmost seriousness. In some circumstances, this is a matter of life and death. I believe that this is a problem that needs a radical solution. I believe the people who work in our service deserve to have their professionalism recognised, deserve to be properly trained, deserve to know, through a set of core competencies, exactly what is expected of them. And they need to know too that they will be held accountable for delivering the planning and the management of our services in coherence with that core set of competencies.

I look forward, Llywydd, to hearing other Members' comments in this debate. I am not expecting—although, of course, I would be delighted—the Minister to say here that he will take on this legislation, but I do hope that he will feel able to acknowledge that there are serious issues that need to be addressed and that we can explore on a cross-party basis in this place to ensure that we have the best, most transparent management system that our NHS needs and deserves.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I just remind speakers that it is three minutes for your contributions to this proposal? Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank Helen Mary Jones for bringing forward this proposal for a Bill on health service management. I can assure you that the Welsh Conservatives would not only support your proposals, but seek to strengthen and increase some of the proposed Bill's provisions, because it ties in very much with a five-point plan for health that we announced in March. Three of the points that we covered have been partly encapsulated in your Bill, and we'd like to take them forward further.

Because we called for there also to be a radical overhaul of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to make it entirely independent of Welsh Government and to give it new powers to intervene quickly when problems are identified. By making it truly independent of Government, as Helen Mary proposes, I believe we could achieve this objective, but I would ask the Member for Mid and West Wales to also consider a financial provision, because we believe that HIW's budget must be trebled in order for it to be able to expand its programme of unannounced inspections and to ensure that requirements for improvement are implemented.

The evidence session the health committee held this morning with Cardiff and Vale University Health Board bears this out. It was an unannounced visit by HIW to the University Hospital of Wales emergency unit and assessment unit that highlighted unsafe standards of care, poor medication practices and inappropriate staffing levels, amongst other areas that needed addressing. Yet, despite insistence that senior managers visit the departments, the health board did not seem to recognise that the emergency unit and assessment unit needed additional support, and to paraphrase what the chief executive said today, people see the situation or the problem so much, they no longer recognise it as such, and we need an independent organisation that can come in.

Furthermore, I think the proposed professional body for managers is, again, something that we'd be very supportive of. Again, we suggested this in our idea, but we'd like to see it go further and become an NHS leadership council that requires registration, and those deemed incompetent would be removed. As you mentioned earlier, there are people—I've got here six examples of people who've repopped up in the system, having done an absolutely shocking job somewhere, and they've managed to survive and go on again.

We totally support a new, robust complaints system. Let's again remind ourselves of another health committee when the chief executive of Cwm Taf said, and I quote,

'To be absolutely frank, the extent of the feedback from the families, which has been the most distressing element of this, was a complete shock, even to me, and I sign off complaints in the organisation.'

Really.

Finally, may I just say you've made an absolutely interesting point on the duty of candour? It should apply to individuals as well as organisations. We've been calling for a duty of candour for six years, since it was introduced in England after the Mid Staffs scandal and in light of Robbie's law. However, the health Minister at the time, Mark Drakeford, implied it was not necessary for Wales. He said in 2013,

'The redress regulations passed here by the Assembly in 2011 place a duty of openness on health boards now. In a sense, a duty of candour is already implicit, if not explicit, in those regulations.'

We've seen that it doesn't work. We would absolutely support you, and I would like to work with you in bringing forward such a Bill to the floor of this Chamber.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

May I congratulate Helen Mary Jones for taking the lead on this? I fully support her intentions. There’s no doubt that systems in the health service are under a huge strain—not enough staff, not enough resources, not enough beds, and nurses and doctors being extended to the very limits to provide an acceptable service most of the time, an excellent service often, but on occasion, the quality of the service does fall short and mistakes can happen, almost inevitably, in a system under such strain.

There are a few points that need to be made. The duty of candour is challenged when lawyers become involved, and even apologising under such circumstances can be interpreted as an admission of fault, and the honesty of the nurse or doctor then will take them to a court of law. And when a nurse or a doctor does decide to speak up to highlight some weakness in the system, then they should be truly protected. Very often, as a whistleblower, they will be persecuted by managers, and will face criticism from colleagues, and they may even be suspended from work or see their careers ended for raising those concerns. The expert who blew the whistle on the deaths of babies in Bristol in the heart operation scandal over 20 years ago—ultimately, that specialist had to move to Australia in order to find work and to continue with his career, just for being a whistleblower.

And the second point: we need to recognise failings in the system that can lead to individual mistakes when doctors and nurses have to do more than one crucial thing at the same time because of pressures of work—not always the doctor or the nurse being persecuted, but looking at the responsibilities of managers too, as Helen Mary has stated, because everybody has a responsibility here. Everyone—doctors, nurses and managers—should be treated the same. They should be registered by their professional bodies, and they should face being struck off and going into to a court of law to face very serious charges where necessary. That’s what faces every doctor and every nurse now; that is what responsibility for patient looks like. Managers should face the same.

Ultimately, we need a no-fault compensation system as a nation when things do go wrong, or some unexpected event happens to a patient. This happens in a number of other countries because a patient doesn’t necessarily have to access an expensive lawyer, the patient wouldn’t require a court of law, and wouldn’t need to prove blame, because, on occasion, it’s a sheer case of being unlucky—there is no-one to blame. No-blame compensation takes away many of the costs, and all of the compensation goes to the patient. Support the motion.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

I welcome Helen Mary's proposals for NHS management and I support her Bill proposal wholeheartedly. As I've said many times in this Chamber, we must ensure health service managers abide by the same obligations as clinical staff. Clinicians are covered by duties of care placed upon them by their royal colleges and the various professional bodies. Managers are an essential part of our modern NHS, and they can often play a role in ensuring the quality of care provided to patients. It is therefore essential that NHS managers belong to a professional body that will help them ensure that there is no room for poor performance or unsafe practices in health service management.

I also welcome measures in the proposed Bill to place a truly independent Healthcare Inspectorate Wales at the heart of a complaints system that puts patients first and ensure they and their families are supported throughout. Placing an explicit duty of candour on NHS managers will hopefully form part of the code of conduct set by the new professional body, ensuring that in future mistakes are seen as learning opportunities and not something to be covered up and evaded. Helen Mary's proposed Bill recognises that our NHS is just as dependent upon managers and administrators as it is upon clinical staff.

We must ensure that those managers and administrators are bound by the same legal duties to the patient as clinical staff. We will never totally eliminate mistakes—we must accept that—but we can ensure that we eradicate unsafe practices and do not reward poor performance. For our NHS to thrive, every part must function well. NHS managers are there to ensure clinical staff have the necessary tools to treat their patients. This proposed Bill will help ensure that healthcare managers have the necessary skills to support clinical staff in a truly patient-first NHS. It has the full support of my group and I look forward to helping Helen Mary in any way I can to ensure its swift passage into law. Diolch yn fawr.

Michelle Brown (Independent, North Wales)

I also support the introduction of this Bill and thank the Member for introducing it. We're all familiar with the horror stories. Babies have died because of NHS mismanagement. Thousands of young people have had their lives put on hold because metal health waiting lists have quadrupled. Patients have died waiting hours for an emergency ambulance to arrive. Lives have been hugely blighted for people waiting longer than they should for surgery, and cancers have grown while the capacity to diagnose and treat them in this country has shrunk. It's not the fault of the clinicians and the front-line staff that this has happened in Wales, but it is someone's fault, and if this Government is to be believed when they deny culpability for the increase in needless deaths and suffering caused by poor responses and outcomes, then it has to follow that it's the fault of certain NHS managers.

Managing finite resource in an organisation that has to respond to what could be considered an uncontrollable demand is no doubt difficult, but brain surgery and complex cancer treatment is no doubt more difficult. Yet, the highly trained, registered and licensed brain surgeon is subject to the decisions of an unlicensed, unregistered NHS manager whose role requires no statutory qualification whatsoever. The decisions of some NHS managers have caused some serious problems, as I've discussed, yet we don't know of any NHS manager who has had so much as one day's pay docked, no-one sacked, no-one told to publicly account for their fatal failings.

For years, I have supported calls for NHS managers to be registered or licensed in a similar fashion as those clinicians who are subject to the NHS managers' decisions. Too many times, we see that managers who fail in one public sector setting simply leave with a big pay-off and then pop up somewhere else in the public sector to wreak their incompetence on another group of unsuspecting taxpayers. Our own experience in this place shows that without a change in the rules of engagement we can't expect any significant improvement. For example, how many times have we in the opposition cornered the health Minister Vaughan Gething about the continued abomination that is Betsi Cadwaladr health board and asked him if anyone has been sacked for their huge failures or the ruining of people's lives, only to see him squirm and almost apologise for his own inability to do anything about it?

This Bill stops short of a licensing system for NHS managers but it's a big step forward in the right direction. Many people would be surprised that there's not a professional body for an occupation as important as NHS management, yet there's a professional body for things like estate agents, advertisers and football coaches et cetera. An independent health inspectorate that's not full of political appointments is also vital. It's long past time that NHS managers should be held to account for the deaths and suffering that their bad decisions cause. It's clear that, since Vaughan Gething doesn't have the skills to solve the problems by himself, we now have to build the solutions into Welsh law. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I now call the Minister for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gething?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I do want to acknowledge at the outset the concerns and issues that have been raised by a number of speakers in their contributions, and that lie behind the motion and the proposal, but I do believe that the draft Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill addresses a number of the points in the motion. Of course, we have just started the scrutiny process on that piece of legislation. I had the opportunity to appear before the Finance Committee today. The passage of that draft Bill through the Assembly will provide an opportunity for these ideas to be debated and discussed, including opportunities for amendments and improvements to be made. Quality is the central concept underpinning the provisions within the Bill. By placing duties at an organisational level, the Bill takes a whole-system approach to quality improvement.

The motion today does include proposals to strengthen the independence of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. A strong regulator able to act independently of the NHS and Government is an important part of our quality landscape. The arrangements currently in place ensure the inspectorate can and does operate independently. As the health Minister, I am not involved in its oversight or in setting its budget. It is responsible for setting its own programme of work within the broad scope of its remit letter. These are essential factors in ensuring that HIW can and does speak out when it needs to. We do, though, recognise that the existing legislative framework for Healthcare Inspectorate Wales is complicated and does need reform. In the interim, there is a need to incrementally develop HIW's capacity to ensure it is equipped to respond to a future legislative framework. I've made available over £1 million of extra support for the organisation to develop its capacity.

The motion calls for a more transparent system of complaints. We have no evidence of a need to change the 'Putting Things Right' arrangements. A review by Keith Evans found it to be fit for purpose, and his recommendations focused on the need to ensure that the application was consistent. The 'Putting Things Right' arrangements do include the NHS redress scheme, which is innovative and unique within the UK. Claims worth less than £25,000 are dealt with under the scheme, which is far quicker than the litigation process and operates at no cost to complainants.

The Bill that I've referred to will establish a new citizens' voice body and I'm sure there will be lots of opportunities for comment and questioning about that through its passage. That new citizens' voice body will support people or their representatives if they need to make a complaint about health or social care. Additional staff will be funded to enable the new body to extend its services to provide a complaints service, advice and assistance to a wider range of individuals.

The Bill proposes a statutory duty of candour at an organisational level. This will mean that all staff, including managers, will be subject to the duty. There will be training for all staff, at all levels of organisations, whether clinicians or not. And that training will be done in partnership with clinicians. Virtually every professional group within the service is keen to sit down with us, to work on the guidance for the duty of candour, to ensure that it is delivered effectively by individuals and organisations across Wales.

I think perhaps the most important points in the conversation today have been about the challenge of having a blame culture, and the cross between blame and accountability. Now, I recognise that, if we are to deliberately move our healthcare system towards a system more properly based on learning and reflection—if that's not to be an aspiration, but something that is made real—we need to see culture change within organisations. And that applies to clinicians as well as managers. And part of my concern is the language around this potential proposal, which does sound rather more like the ability to get rid of managers, rather than to learn and reflect when things go wrong.

Earlier today, I was at the launch of the maternity vision for Wales. And, again, there, within the maternity profession in Wales, there is real reflection on the things that have gone wrong in different parts of the country—obviously, in the former Cwm Taf area—but there's also real pride in the deliberate choices that they are making, and they are recognised as making within the UK and further afield. And I would not want to see a new system of conduct introduced that moved us away from the ability to learn and reflect. And so, the proposals for a new compulsory regulatory body for NHS managers would introduce a level of cost and complexity, but of course that's always the case when introducing new measures. But we should recall the experiences of nurses in the care homes regulations, when having to attend to two regulators. That did not improve our system, it did not make a difference to those members of staff or the people they're working with or for.

We would need to have detailed finance and policy consideration to reflect the diverse nature of the workforce and their roles, including the point the First Minister made yesterday about defining who or what a manager is to be caught within the ambit of a new regulatory body, whether it is prospective regulation, where everyone must appear on a register to be able to work, or whether it is a retrospective test as to whether someone is a fit-and-proper person. Those are issues that the potential mover of the legislation would need to address, and that balance of responsibility between the employer versus the regulator, and how we ensure that those healthcare professionals, who are the great majority of managers within our system, how they are dealt with, and indeed the mobility of the workforce across borders if we were to introduce this requirement in Wales alone. The British Medical Association, for example, have called in the past for a UK-wide approach to this issue. I'm not persuaded on the case for compulsory regulation for managers, but I'm happy to listen to detailed proposals that address the very real and practical challenges.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I call on Helen Mary to reply to the debate.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I only have two minutes to respond, so I can't possibly respond to every single point that people have raised. But I'm very grateful indeed for the level of support there has been across the Chamber, and I'm also grateful, actually, to the Minister for acknowledging that this is an attempt to address issues that are real and are meaningful, and for his willingness to look at more detailed proposals.

I want to touch on a couple of points that Angela Burns raised. I think the financial provision for HIW is absolutely crucial. I'm not sure that you deal with that in legislation though, though there may be some ways to do that. And I absolutely support what you say about registration involving the right to, potentially, remove somebody. But I want to challenge the Minister and say that I was very clear in my contribution that that's not where I'm starting from. What I'm starting from is empowering people to do their jobs properly, and only having to come back to them, and deal with not doing the job properly, as a last resort, as is the same for doctors, nurses, and other clinical professionals.

Nobody will be surprised to hear me say that I agree with everything that Dai has said. In the context of this Bill, I think, crucially, moving to a proper no-fault compensation system is, in the end, the only way that we will enable professionals to be able to admit mistakes and learn from them. And an equity of treatment for managers and clinical staff is crucial.

The Minister's Bill is not entirely useless, and we will, of course, seek to amend it, but it doesn't address the bulk of the concerns. I do believe we need to regulate our managers, particularly to stop them appearing, disappearing and reappearing when things have gone wrong. We will, of course, co-operate through the Bill's progress, but we need to do more.

Now, I happen to believe that we do have the ability and capacity. We have enough bright people in Wales to provide really effective management of our public services, but we're not providing them with the training and the structure to enable them to do that. I will work with Members across this Chamber to seek to move this agenda forward. We may perhaps consider, for example, a cross-party group on public service accountability that could address some of these issues.

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to raise these matters here today. Some of the feedback that's come back to me, very clearly, from, actually, managerial staff is that they are glad to know that people know that everything isn't all right and that they're taking it seriously. I look forward to co-operating on this agenda to deliver the best management and the best outcomes for patients.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, therefore, we defer voting on this item until voting time.

Statement by the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Before I call the next item on the agenda, many of you will know that there has been a fatal incident on our rail network, involving two members of staff. I therefore agreed that the Deputy Minister will make a short statement, before the debate on the committee report. Lee Waters.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Earlier today, a Great Western Railway train struck two people between Port Talbot and Bridgend at Margam. The Welsh Government, and I'm sure the entire National Assembly, is deeply shocked by this tragic incident involving railway workers and our thoughts are with their families, their friends and their colleagues. I know this will send shockwaves through the whole industry and my thanks go to the emergency services and all those involved in the response.

The impact and the ramifications of this incident will reverberate across the rail industry. No-one goes to work to lose their lives. The incident now needs to be investigated, its causes understood and necessary measures put in place so that the appropriate lessons are learnt. It's testimony to how rare an incident like this is—that people lose their lives on the railways—that it's hard to understand how this could have happened this morning just 20 or so miles away from us.

Network Rail, Great Western Railway and Transport for Wales will be working to advise customers on alternative arrangements for travel. Customers should check via social media online for the latest travel advice. Diolch yn fawr.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

6. Debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee Report: 'The Future Development of Transport for Wales'

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move to the debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report on 'The Future Development of Transport for Wales' and I call on the Chair of the committee to move that motion. Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I would like to associate my own comments with the comments of the Deputy Minister. I think we're all saddened by the tragic incident involving rail workers this morning, but I'm sure that all Members here would want to pass on our thoughts and condolences to the families who are involved.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I move the motion in my name. After reporting on the rail franchise and south Wales metro in June 2017, it was a natural next step for the committee to take a closer look at Transport for Wales’s governance arrangements. Back in 2017, we had at that time said that while arrangements were appropriate at that time, they would need to change in the future. So, in this inquiry, we looked at how other transport delivery bodies worked and listened to the concerns of Welsh stakeholders. Our report highlights the unusual way that Transport for Wales was set up—as a wholly owned subsidiary of Welsh Government—and that this decision has created some confusion for stakeholders.

I'll give you an example of this. Shortly after we started our inquiry, the Welsh Government launched a consultation on legislative proposals for public transport. But it was Transport for Wales that engaged directly with stakeholders on developing the White Paper, not the Welsh Government. So the lines of responsibility for policy development and for operational delivery have seemed blurred, and after the confusion, I think there is some confusion there, and I don't think that that is at all surprising. The Welsh Government tells us that Transport for Wales is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Welsh Ministers, but at the same time that there is a distinct separation between the Welsh Government and TfW, allowing TfW to make independent operational decisions. It is notable that in front of us today, we have a response from the Welsh Government to some of our recommendations, and a separate response from TfW to others.

This particular report focused on the governance of Transport for Wales itself, not the performance of TfW rail services. Despite some difficulties and some teething problems with autumn rail disruption, which the committee has reported on separately, many transport stakeholders have seemed encouraged by Transport for Wales's initial engagement with them on a one-to-one basis, which I think is positive. However, the need for much better transparency and engagement, and clearer lines of accountability, were key recommendations. While transport stakeholders were developing a better understanding of Transport for Wales through direct contact with them, it was not being communicated clearly enough to the public.

There is, I think, much to welcome in Transport for Wales's response to the report, such as the commitment to creating an advisory panel to give customers, stakeholders and interested groups the opportunity to advise TfW on its activities. TfW also says it will publish a high-level summary of its communications plan for 2019-20, but it would be helpful to know when we could expect to see that plan.

We also made a number of recommendations to the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales about publishing an organisational chart; being clearer about the role played by consultants; ensuring its board is representative and diverse; publishing a complete register of interests of its board members and directors; and demonstrating a strong and open partnership approach to engagement with trade unions. The committee was concerned by evidence from two trade unions about a lack of partnership working. TfW’s chief executive made a commitment to listen to the unions' concerns, and the response to recommendation 11 describes TfW’s

'keenness to work with all partners and formalise any agreements as soon as possible.'

This is not, of course, the same as saying that agreements are in place. So, I think further progress is needed in that regard.

Transport for Wales's response to recommendation 3, unfortunately I think, misses the point. The committee asked to see an organisational chart published for the whole organisation, not just the board. Transport for Wales says publishing details of its senior team is in line with practice elsewhere, including Transport for London. But Transport for London's transparency strategy extends far beyond publishing board members' biographies. It also publishes a much more substantial organisational chart with details of staff roles and salary bands for senior staff, as well as Transport for London's board members. Transport for Wales's proposals to publish details of contracts of over £25,000 on a quarterly basis may help a bit, I think, to understand the role of consultants, but in light of concerns about the significant use of consultants, the response I don't think goes far enough.

We do welcome the gender balance on TfW’s board and the Minister’s commitment to ensuring that the next chair of TfW will be subject to a pre-appointment hearing with the committee. The recommendation is, of course, no reflection on the suitability of the current chair, but it does recognise the committee’s important scrutiny role.

I very much look forward to hearing the views of colleagues this afternoon, and also, of course, the Deputy Minister's response. And, of course, I commend our report to the Assembly.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I welcome this debate, because I think that there was very little opportunity given to stakeholders to have any input into the process at the time of the procurement, and that was for good commercial reasons, but it did prevent local stakeholders, who are obviously mainly people who travel by public transport, from giving their views on exactly what was needed. And so I'm hopeful that we will hear from the Minister about how there is going to be now much more public engagement in what people who are affected by the current state of transport—what they want from this process. In particular, obviously, the people I represent in Cardiff Central are particularly keen to see a joined-up transport system that marries up the rail system with the bus system, with integrated ticketing systems that will enable it to be possible to transfer from one mode of transport to another; obviously, good bicycle racks and good walking routes to get to railway stations, which obviously are not going to be at the end of every street, and therefore people need a mode of transport to actually get to the railway station. So, I think it's very useful to see the report from the committee, but I think there's a lot more that we need to do to ensure that ordinary passengers can have their say on the type of transport system that they want to see.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you to the Chair for leading on this agenda. I found this piece of work very interesting, for us to try and shape the future of Transport for Wales, considering it's such a youthful organisation. And while we did find that there had been some teething problems—notably in our other report with regard to the autumn dysfunction—we know that time will tell how engaged and how positive a relationship Transport for Wales can develop, not only with us but with the wider public. So, I think that's all to be seen for the future.

I think what's integral to us as politicians is to understand exactly what Transport for Wales and its role will be. There was some—I don't want to use the words 'dispute' or 'confusion' about who was ultimately responsible. When I asked Ken Skates, 'Is it you?', he said 'Yes'; in previous sessions, it may not have been as clear, when we were probing Transport for Wales as to who was ultimately responsible for any failings or for any misgivings in the system. So, whatever happens in terms of the structure, we have to know that the Government will be ultimately responsible for what happens, or if it's not, that those delineations of power and abdication of power is clear for all to see, so that we know and the public knows, more importantly, that if something goes wrong, if they want to complain, if they want to get compensation, they know exactly where to go. And, as yet, I'm not sure that we know what the answer is.

For example, we've got the joint transport authorities. Are we going to have a regional system, or are we going to have a national system, or are we going to have both? In my gut, and I'm not speaking on behalf of everybody yet, because we've yet to discuss it as a party, I would say that, actually, do we need to have two different systems? Can we not have one system that people will be able to go to and that's clear? The White Paper may be able to give us some more answers on that.

I did find it a bit ironic and a bit sad to see that the trade unions had to raise with us the fact that some of the trade unions were not being engaged at all by Transport for Wales, and that we had to raise it with them in these committee sessions to say to them, 'Look, if you are going to be TUPE-ing staff over, if you are going to be transferring people to Transport for Wales from other bodies, then they need to be clear about what's happening and they also have to have a role on that board.' I'm glad to see, following on from those public concerns, that Transport for Wales has now engaged with all the trade unions. I think it was PCS that had the biggest concern at the time, but they are now part of that conversation. But it shouldn't be an afterthought; they should be there from the start as part of the social partnership, and we shouldn't be seeing that happening again here in Wales.

Ultimately, I think any governance system has to be robust enough to be assured that what's being delivered for the public is sufficient and strong. And I think that's where, potentially, things need to improve. In our report, we talk about Transport for Wales being more reactive rather than proactive: people didn't know about what was happening, they didn't know who was running the service anymore, they couldn't find information on the website and they didn't know about plans for integrated ticketing. So, what I would say is that Transport for Wales needs to have a wide-scale Wales campaign to engage with the public about what they want to see happening and how. If Transport for Wales is going to go into buses and to other modes of transport, then how can the public be used as part of that conversation, and not just be told what is going to happen? That's now what they want to see happening in all of this.

One other comment I think we did pick up on in this inquiry, which, perhaps, the Deputy Minister will respond to, was the lack of expertise from those in the rail industry on the board. I appreciate you can't just have rail geeks and rail anoraks on the board—it can't just be those people, as passionate as they are—it has to be inclusive of all society. But if you don't have any of them with those skills, then there is a bit of a problem, is there not? I appreciate that specialism because I'm not a rail specialist—I wouldn't be able to do that work—so please can we see how they can be involved, and how we can use the agenda of climate change that we're all talking about at the moment to focus Transport for Wales's work on looking at how they can integrate different modes of transport into their work, but also encourage people out of their cars.

I'd like to thank the committee team for all the hard work they've done in supporting this work, but I think this is the beginning of our scrutiny of Transport for Wales, and certainly not the end.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak this afternoon on the future development of Transport for Wales. The purpose of this report is to make sure Transport for Wales is fit for purpose. To that end, the committee makes 13 recommendations. It is pleasing to note that the Welsh Government has accepted all 13 recommendations, and Transport for Wales itself has welcomed the report.

I would like to confine my remarks today to some of the important key principles highlighted by the committee. The first concerns are: transparency and clarity in operations, role and governance. This emerged as a key issue during the inquiry, with a variety of views being expressed. Concerns were expressed that, at present, there is no clarity over where the functions of Transport for Wales end and those of Welsh Government begin. Welsh Government must clearly define the remit of TfW to the satisfaction of shareholders and customers. I look forward to hearing from the Minister how he intends to achieve this in his reply.

As the report says,

'transport is first and foremost about the needs of the user…TfW must demonstrate a stronger commitment to meeting customer needs and improving passenger experience'.

Although the committee recognised that TfW expressed willingness to be open, concerns were raised that the availability of information for the public had been slow to appear and incomplete. The impression given was that TfW had been providing information and engaging with stakeholders on a reactive rather than proactive basis, which I think Bethan has already mentioned. As a relatively new organisation, these problems are not surprising. TfW must move quickly to set up a formal advisory group to engage with stakeholder bodies and improve public awareness about its responsibilities and functions. A wide range of mechanisms to consult with stakeholders and passengers would demonstrate a stronger commitment to meeting customers' needs and improving passengers' experience.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Will you take an intervention?

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Yes, go on.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Can I just ask: has the Conservative Party got a position now on joint transport authorities?

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Let me finish my speech and I'll give you the answer in a minute.

A strategic transport executive body would co-ordinate the provision of a seamless travel experience for users. This would provide a back-office function for integrated ticketing across all modes of transport, and by all preferred payment methods. Integrated ticketing and a smart travel option will make a huge difference to passengers in Wales, and greatly improve their experience. This is even more important when the passengers are elderly, disabled or need to use wheelchairs.

As my party's shadow Minister for skills, I am particularly interested—now, this is my answer to Hefin David—in opportunities offered by the development of TfW to build and retain skill and capacity in transport expertise in Wales. This includes generating apprenticeships. It was noted that both Transport for Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority had a strong focus on local procurement and creating a legacy for jobs and training. The committee welcomed the Minister's aim of creating a specialist organisation that can help and develop transport-related skills across the Welsh public sector. The development of TfW must lead to a tangible increase in transport-related skills and the generation of apprenticeships. We must also follow the lead of Manchester and Liverpool and align procurement practice to supporting a legacy of skills and training in Wales.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I believe that the recommendations in this report will ensure that Transport for Wales continues its development as an organisation that is fit for purpose and that serves well the people of Wales. Thank you.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I'd like to thank all the staff on the committee for their support in what has been a really useful inquiry. In rising to speak today, I'd like to begin by noting the important centenaries being celebrated this year around the development of transport policy in the UK. When I was a teacher, I always used to tell my students that history had relevance in the modern world, and I think these examples bear fruit with that.

In 1819, we saw the opening of the Mansfield and Pinxton railway. Currently celebrating its two-hundredth anniversary, this is the UK’s oldest continuously running commercial railway. And, importantly, in light of remarks that I'll make later and that other Members have already made, that line was linked to economic development, and it was part of a radical attempt to integrate transport infrastructure, in that case rail and canal.

Stepping forward in time 100 years, May 1919 saw the appointment of the first ever Minister of transport in Westminster. Eric Geddes was appointed by Lloyd George to oversee the new department, where a key responsibility was rail, and the future shape of the network was a key debate, again something that will strike a chord with us today. So, it's interesting to note that the kind of priorities that we were looking at as a nation 100 years ago, 200 years ago, still resonate with us today.

Step forward another 100 years, and here we have the report from the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee that we're considering today. And it may be a stretch, I'm afraid, Chair, to think that policy makers will be noting its centenary in 100 years' time, but, despite that, I think that there are key messages in all these areas—the economy, integration and the network shape, which I will take some time to explore.

I'd like to start with recommendation 13. I think that kind of focus on procurement, skills and training could provide a really important economic boost. It’s a real opportunity for people living in areas like mine to get good-quality work. It’s a real opportunity for small and medium-sized enterprises to get good-quality contracts. And as the evidence that we took from Manchester and Liverpool told us, supporting employment and apprenticeships must be at the heart of any regional or national model of working. With that in mind, it’s good to see the range of approaches outlined in the response from Transport for Wales to this recommendation.

Turning briefly to recommendation 11, for Transport for Wales to demonstrate its commitment to its workforce and their welfare, it is important that it enters into a social partnership agreement with relevant trade unions. I know that the TfW website contains a commitment to getting a union rep on its board. So, it would be good to see progress on this point.

For the bulk of my contribution, I'd like to focus on recommendations 5 to 8. All of them relate to the broader points of integration and network that I mentioned in my opening remarks. All have an important role in ensuring that TfW delivers on the transformative shift that we wish to see from it. That being the case, it's good that all of those recommendations have been accepted by the Welsh Government and to read the positive reply from TfW, where appropriate.

To achieve these aims, in my opinion, though, bus services are absolutely crucial, and to realise truly the vision of the south Wales metro as a truly integrated transport system, we must ensure healthy arterial routes—arterial routes that, via bus services or perhaps active travel links, link what are often the poorest, most isolated communities to the main transport thoroughfares.

From my constituency postbag, particularly in relation to those bus services, we still have a long, long way to go to fulfil this and to realise the fullest ambition of the south Wales metro. To do that would accord with the well-being goals and offer a real intervention around promoting social justice, and, of course, a joined-up service would require joined-up, integrated ticketing, and I'd like to see it being one that doesn’t penalise the infrequent traveller. One of my local branches of Active Wales have, in a similar vein, made a plea that concessionary bus travel be extended to rail services and I would like to see some further work around this.

During our inquiry, several of our witnesses gave compelling evidence also around a possible role for TfW in terms of the highway network, and I believe this would be a really positive opportunity to replace what I personally feel is a less than responsive trunk road agency. My constituency was badly affected by flooding on part of the A465 near Rhigos earlier this year, and the actions of the South Wales Trunk Road Agency were problematic. They used inaccurate signage, unable to find pumping equipment that the local authority could rapidly source. Their bungling caused frustration to commuters and local residents, making a bad situation worse. I've had also recurring problems around this with SWTRA for the past three years in terms of signage around road closures, failure to repair potholes, traffic light timings, and dangerously poor visibility on key junctions due to a lack of grass cutting. In all cases, these issues, which have caused delays and impacts on road user safety, have eventually been sorted, but only after personal lobbying from myself or other Assembly Members. So, moving forward, a greater role for Transport for Wales, with clear lines of accountability, could only be an improvement.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

First, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I also extend my and my party's deepest sympathy to the families and friends of the two workmen killed on the Cardiff to Swansea line this morning?

In its 'Prosperity for All' economic plan, the Welsh Government stressed the importance of connectivity in Wales as essential to economic success. Transport for Wales will have a key role to play in the delivery of the infrastructure and transport schedule side of this connectivity. I wish to acknowledge the considerable amount of work the committee undertook to produce this report. It is noticeable that all the recommendations contained in the report have been accepted by the Welsh Government. I believe this indicates the maturity of the committee, which now must be viewed as a critical friend, not just a committee of scrutiny.

I know from my time on the committee that there was cross-party consensus to improve the economic and social performance of Wales. One matter of concern is in recommendation 5. This says that:

'It is difficult to recommend what form the transport body should take until there is clarity about its functions.'

I simply make the note that perhaps it should have been the other way around, whereby you decide its functions and then create the model you need to fulfil those functions. It certainly appears that there is consensus between the Welsh Government, Transport for Wales, and the EIS committee to ensure that Transport for Wales will be competent to fulfil the role of an overarching body that will be able to co-ordinate all the transport network and give direction, which may have been lacking in the past.

There is no doubt that the Welsh Government is fully committed to creating the very best transport infrastructure for Wales, but I say delivery, delivery, and, again, delivery will be the ultimate arbiter as to whether the Government's goals are achieved. So, we must not allow Transport for Wales little leeway on this aspect.

It is noteworthy that Transport for Wales are in the process of using passenger time lost, PTL, as its new performance tool—the first to use it in the UK. Whilst this will enhance data feedback, it is the implementation of corrective actions that will be the true test of Transport for Wales's ability to improve on passenger expectations. To summarise, Llywydd: 600 new jobs, 30 apprenticeships each year, new trains on order, planning and detailed design going ahead for the metro project, and work already in progress on improving stations—the future certainly looks bright for the travelling public in Wales, and I feel confident that continued scrutiny will ensure that all promises and obligations are met, and, hopefully, in keeping with our trains, on time.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I'd like to associate myself with the remarks about the tragedy at Margam that the Minister mentioned and has been mentioned by others.

According to the Welsh Government's response to the recommendations, the long-term aim of Transport for Wales is

'to deliver a public transport system that aims to give everyone easier access to bus, train and active travel for everyday journeys.'

The Chamber will know that I've made much complaint about the Government's—probably not the Government, actually, the approach to house building that has taken place in my constituency, and particularly in the south end, leaving the Government often with no choice but to allow that building to go ahead because of demand. But those houses are being built in areas in which the transport connections are very poor. And—

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Will you take an intervention?

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Yes.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Surely it's the role of the local authority to decide whether or not a particular housing development is sustainable or not.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Yes, and the local authority turns it down on those very grounds, it goes to appeal and the Planning Inspectorate overturn it on appeal, and then the Minister approves the appeal because the Minister is concerned that, if she doesn't approve it on appeal, it will be subject to judicial review and the planning inspector's view will hold sway in those circumstances. That's the difficulty that—. And I can give the precise example of Hendredenny. The problem with Hendredenny, where Redrow are going to build houses, is that it just does not connect very well, and the transport estimates suggest that more cars—that just six cars will be on the road a day as a result of the building of that estate. It's absurd, because the transport system does not provide for the volumes of traffic that will actually be created. Therefore, the future of Transport for Wales is massively important to reduce the need for that kind of housing estate and to connect better, and use the transport system to connect better transport across the Caerphilly constituency, particularly when building in areas of need.

It's encouraging that the Minister accepts recommendation 7, and recommendation 7 says that Transport for Wales

'should provide clear evidence of how it is complying with the principles of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.'

That's exactly what we are talking about when we talk about connectivity and new-build estates.

Recommendation 6 touches on something that is of great interest to the committee, which was, as I raised with Mohammad Asghar, the creation of joint transport authorities. I think there's a lack of clarity there as to whether we need a national joint transport authority, whether we need regional joint transport authorities, and the Government needs to be clear about this and what roles they will play. Will the joint transport authorities simply be repeating what the Transport for Wales body does? And we look forward to clarity on that in particular.

One thing I'd say in response to Bethan Jenkins, who raised concerns about responsibility for aspects of what Transport for Wales does: in my experience, James Price, as chief executive officer of Transport for Wales, has been very open in both answering questions in committee very honestly, and sometimes to possibly his reputational detriment in the fact that there's a lot of things he cannot do, but also then is more than happy to invite Assembly Members with an interest to see what they're doing, particularly in the Canton depot, and see what they're doing to bring new trains to the line.

We've now, on the Rhymney to Cardiff line, got loco-hauled services and additional carriages precisely as a result of Transport for Wales. The existence of Transport for Wales has led to additional carriages on the line that runs through my constituency, and that's really very, very important. That's a stop-gap measure while the new trains are being built, and that is something that I think is hugely relevant to the fact that we've got this franchise now, Wales owned and Wales run. And the changes in the future will be directly as a result of the franchise being overseen by Ministers in this Parliament.

Finally, with regard to ticketing, we need this seamless ticketing—Vikki Howells mentioned it—and the tracking of ticketing. I had an experience on the weekend: I took my children on a return journey from Hengoed to Aber. I went to Ffiliffest in Caerphilly castle and then went to Morgan Jones Park and the splash pad there—everyone is recommended to visit that, it's amazing—but I bought my ticket using my Transport for Wales app on my phone. So, I bought my ticket before I left the house. Nobody checked my ticket on the train. There must be technology that would enable the conductor on the train to know whether tickets have been purchased or not, making life easier for the conductor. The carriage was full, so the conductor simply wasn't able to get from one carriage to the other to check my ticket, but I had bought the ticket. But it would be very tempting—and probably my constituents won't thank me for this—to not buy a ticket; human nature. I think we need to have the technology that enables, without being intrusive, the conductor to know that tickets have been bought. I think that's an important consideration for the future.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The first thing I want to do also is to send my condolences to the families of those two men who just were killed today, and to concur with everything that was said earlier in terms of the way that we feel here today—that people going to work expect to come home from work.

I want to say that—and to carry on from where my colleague left off—I do welcome the Transport for Wales initiative, because it does mean, quite clearly, that there will be a focus on transport in its entirety in Wales, and that can only be a positive thing, and we're seeing positive things that have already arisen from that. But I want to focus firstly on going forward, particularly when we're looking at the climate emergency that's been declared. We're talking about cleaner air and we're also talking about decarbonisation in the transport system. So, there's a logic—and it's been accepted—that we must align the transport policies with all aspects of planning, and, again, Hefin just talked about that for his region. But we must talk about it for all areas—[Interruption.] Yes, okay, he hasn't got a region; I've got a region. But we must talk about it in the round, because transport—. If we're going to build—and I hope we are—many, many more houses for people, and if we're going to talk particularly about affordable housing within that, we must allow those individuals, whoever they are and wherever they live, an opportunity to travel by either public transport or to walk or to cycle.

Too often in the past—we've all seen it, and the now Deputy Minister has spoken about it previously as a backbencher—we've seen estates being built and there is absolutely no access or no consideration about the way that people are going to travel around those houses. The same can be said when we're building schools, hospitals, or anything else for that matter. Because, if we're going to get serious, we have to get serious at the start, in the pre-planning phase. I have every confidence that the Deputy Minister will have his eye very firmly on that agenda, and that's a good thing, but we need to be sure that it's happening on the ground. Do we need—when we're looking at a national plan, and a regional plan and a local plan, and, you know, are we having conversations with local authorities who'll be drawing up those plans locally, ensuring that the members who are on the planning committees fully understand what it is that they should be looking at, when they're deciding an application, in the round? Because, whilst we're here engaged in this, and we've done a committee inquiry into it, it doesn't necessarily mean that the people who will be asked to implement it on the ground will be as clear in their understanding as we might be. So, I suppose that's my real question to you. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the committee for the considered way that they undertook their inquiry and for their report? The role of Transport for Wales is evolving, and it's useful for the committee to do this work at this point in the cycle. I was keen, as a member of this committee when it was drafting its work programme, that the committee put its nose into this debate at a formative stage, and I am equally keen now, as a Minister, to receive the advice and thoughts of the committee about how that should be shaped. I think it's an important example of a committee performing its scrutiny and policy influencing role. That is one of the reasons why the Government has accepted all the recommendations, and has made clear in them the action we intend to take and the action we intend Transport for Wales to take. Our vision is for a world-class integrated low-carbon transport system in Wales to drive forward our economies and our communities to greater prosperity. TfW was established to support us in achieving that vision. The company has an important role in driving integration across the entire transport network, putting the passenger at the centre of everything it does.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

As we begin our journey with TfW to change Wales's network, the complexity and volatility of the drivers for change that the Welsh Government needs to respond to are unprecedented. The advent of new and emerging technologies in the transport sector will transform how people use transport in their everyday lives over the next decade. I was launching this morning, Dirprwy Llywydd, a new fleet of buses for TrawsCymru and reflecting on my own experience, as a student in Aberystwyth making the hideous journey by bus through the winding lanes of mid Wales, with drivers going way too fast, and myself feeling very queasy after a night out the night before—of what the experience of using public transport was. And then, fast forward 25 years in the future, and the experience of using public transport will be dramatically different. The idea of an Uber for buses is now something that we are actively piloting through the Valleys and in Wrexham, which was simply unimaginable when I was a student. So, these new technologies, if managed correctly, are opportunities for Wales's economy to benefit from new, highly skilled jobs and for the passenger experience to change too, and to attract more people to shift modes of transport to help us respond to the climate change emergency.

The existing model, whereby Welsh Government has responsibility for strategy all the way through to project delivery and operations, leads to fragmentation of effort and of focus, inevitably shifting from the development of effective policy to dealing with the here and now of delivery. We've set out in the economic action plan our aspiration for TfW to exploit the opportunity it has as our transport integrator—to allow the company to take on a wider range of transport functions. In doing so, we will increase TfW's staffing capacity, capability and expertise to deliver the Welsh Government's policy goals, including some immediate steps towards transport integration: empowering TfW to deliver a public transport system that gives everyone easier access to bus, train and active travel for everyday journeys; creating a transport planning model for Wales, enabling improved decision making for transport and land-use planning; implementation of smart ticketing technology to create interoperability and use across modes; and co-ordinating information across transport modes to help inform route planning.

In the medium term, we have instructed officials to plan for the migration of the remaining transport delivery functions, such as highway improvements and operations, from the Welsh Government into TfW. Doing this will leave the Welsh Government free to focus on the policy challenges posed by decarbonisation, air quality, autonomous and electric vehicles and so on to develop a multiterm legislative programme and policy framework that will help us realise the ambitions we have for TfW. As part of the bus reform work, we are proposing the joint transport authority approach, whereby local authorities in the regions of Wales work together to provide local and regional transport outcomes. I'd like to respond to Hefin David's challenge—not the bit where he revealed his penchant for fare dodging, but the other bit—where he said there was a lack of clarity on whether TfW should be a national transport planning body or a regional one. This is the debate that we want to have, and I'd invite Members to input this into local authorities too.

Our current thinking—and this is a genuine invitation to help us shape it—working closely with local authorities, and the work that the Minister for Local Government and Housing is doing on creating a regional footprint for collaboration, is that transport should be very much part of that, not as a stand-alone development, but completely integrated into the regional collaboration bodies that the Minister is creating. Just as, at the moment, the Welsh Government can commission Transport for Wales to do a piece of work for us, it's entirely possible, in keeping with what we want to see, that local authorities could equally commission them to do a piece of work for them, because there simply isn't the capacity and the expertise in every local authority, as there once was, to be able to do this. So, there's no reason why different layers of government can't exercise that executive and democratic decision making, and TfW can sit alongside them as partners to deliver the expertise. That way, as a small, smart nation, we can make the most of our expertise, and do that in a collaborative way.

That's our plan. That's what we're working towards, and we'd welcome some challenge on that if Members think that a different direction would be better. So, I do hope there is some clarity, to answer Hefin David's point on our direction of travel. As an organisation solely focused on the delivery of transport solutions, TfW can build a highly skilled transport delivery workforce with emphasis on technical, management and leadership skills that will create better value and outcomes for people, places and for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I now call Russell George to reply to the debate?

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Transport for Wales and the Minister stated their commitment to openness and transparency, but I would just say that their record on this is imperfect. There have been gaps in time frames covered by Transport for Wales's remit letter, and we've still not seen the long-awaited business case for its future governance.

Now, Hefin David spoke at some length about JTAs. As a committee, we recognise that there is an ongoing consultation with local government and others about the proposed joint transport authorities, which of course may have a bearing on how Transport for Wales operates in the future. So, the Minister's commitment to publish Transport for Wales's business case and the future remit during the consultation on JTA proposals was welcome, I should say. It is very important, I think, that the Minister soon makes his intention clear so that everyone can understand how JTAs will fit into the future Welsh Government's vision for an integrated transport network.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Am I right in thinking that the evidence we received said that a national JTA and regional JTAs would be a step too far, and would be duplicating themselves?

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I think you are. I was just going to come on to talk perhaps a little bit about that as well following your contribution.

From the evidence that was gathered—. I'll come back to JTAs. From the evidence we gathered, I don't think we're able to conclude that one specific governance model would be a perfect fit for Wales, but I think a pick and mix of best practice should be applied. We heard evidence from transport expert Professor Iain Docherty, who told us that the number of transport bodies should be kept to the minimum necessary and no more.

Local government representatives have told us that they want to see tight co-ordination mechanisms for making important transport decisions in Wales. Although they welcome the regional collaboration, they question the need for a national JTA. Some stakeholders also see Transport for Wales as having that national co-ordination role, although of course it's a limited company owned by the Government, not a transport authority with statutory powers. So the committee therefore looks forward to seeing the detail of proposals for JTAs and Transport for Wales's future role to understand how they're going to fit together.

Jenny Rathbone and Vikki Howells and Hefin also commented on integrated ticketing in their contributions. Now, the remit given to Transport for Wales for land use planning and active travel will be important for developing an integrated network, because our inquiry showed the importance of a governance model that works across policy areas, like health, education and planning. Passenger journeys don't recognise, of course, those borders, and the needs of passengers, I think, must always come first.

We want to see evidence as well that Transport for Wales's work on integrated ticketing and communications and engagement with passengers is bearing fruit. We want to see that happening. I do just note the response to recommendation 8 to our inquiry, which points to its website for details on its obligations on integrated ticketing, but I think much more detail needs to come forward in that regard. I also thank Vikki as well for her contribution—Vikki Howells—who gave us a bit of a history lesson. I learnt some things today that I hadn't previously. I wouldn't expect anything different from a former teacher.

Thank you to Bethan Sayed, who joined our committee just as we were starting this piece of work. I'd echo Bethan's final comments that as a committee we're going to continue to hold scrutiny on Transport for Wales. I also echo Hefin's comments, in that I think that Transport for Wales appreciate our scrutiny and challenge and they've always been very open to coming to committee and engaging with us as Members as well.

I thank Oscar Asghar, who wasn't on the committee but is a new member of committee after joining our committee more recently. I'm grateful for his comments as well. And I thank Joyce Watson for her contribution, and David Rowlands for his contribution. David was a member of the committee at the time, but is no longer a member of the committee, so as I said in the committee—he wasn't there to hear this—but I thanked David for his contribution on the committee during his time with us.

We're always grateful for those who give evidence to our inquiry and certainly appreciate the input from our transport stakeholders. We thank also—I think Vikki Howells mentioned it—our staff on the committee and the integrated team for their support as well. Our overriding message is that passengers deserve the best and they must come at the centre of everything that Transport for Wales does from now on.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee Report: 'Bacc to the Future: The status of the Welsh Baccalaureate qualification'

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report, 'Bacc to the Future: The status of the Welsh Baccalaureate qualification'. I call on the Chair of the committee, Lynne Neagle, to move the motion.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to open this debate today on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification.

Concerns about the Welsh bac have, over a number of years and all too often, been appearing in the news and in our constituency and committee inboxes alike—concerns about universities choosing not to accept the qualification, about its impact on learner choice and success in other subject areas, concerns about teachers feeling ill-prepared to deliver the qualification. As a parent of a young person who is going through the Welsh bac, I get told first hand and very regularly about some of the difficulties being faced by our young people. The weight of concerns being raised set alarm bells ringing for us as a committee. We therefore wanted to undertake this inquiry and hear directly from those on the front line—pupils, parents, teachers, employers and universities—about their experiences of the Welsh bac to establish how widespread the challenges being raised with us are.

The committee's report makes 10 recommendations. I don't intend to go through each of those recommendations today. I will instead outline some of the main concerns raised throughout the inquiry. The committee very much welcomes the response from the Minister, which accepts all bar one of the recommendations that we have made for the Government, with one recommendation accepted in principle. We also welcome the response from Qualifications Wales, which was very positive about the work the committee has undertaken and provides a clear commitment to evolving the Welsh bac so that it secures the best possible benefit to our young people. Our inquiry showed there are clear concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. However, it is worth outlining that, despite initial doubts held by the committee, the evidence we gathered showed clear merit to studying the Welsh bac.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

This was particularly so in terms of the breadth of skills developed for future learning, employment and life. However, the way in which the qualification is currently being delivered and publicised is having a detrimental effect on its actual and perceived value. Many of the negative views we heard also related both to a lack of understanding of the qualification’s purpose and content, and the inconsistency in its delivery across Wales.

Although we found that understanding of the Welsh bac is growing in some areas, employers and universities remain underinformed about the qualification. Centres of learning remain worryingly inconsistent in their approach to its teaching. Duplication of effort and unmanageable assessment requirements are also leaving teachers and learners understandably fatigued. For the Welsh bac's potential to be fully realised, these issues need to be addressed as a matter of priority. It is essential that the Welsh Government makes a clearer statement about its vision for the Welsh bac that is underpinned by guidance that provides detail on its expectations in relation to the qualification’s delivery. So I very much welcome the Minister’s confirmation that the Welsh Government is currently reviewing the guidance available on the Welsh bac and its delivery, and that it will be publishing clearer guidance in due course.

We also believe that Welsh Government and Qualifications Wales should work together to deliver a focused awareness-raising campaign especially aimed at business and higher education institutions. If the skills developed under the Welsh bac are better understood by those sectors, it will help secure their engagement and buy-in. We recognise the work that Qualifications Wales has already undertaken in this respect and are pleased that the Minister’s response indicated that Welsh Government are now working closely with Qualifications Wales and WJEC to develop a joint communications plan to help ensure that universities and employers understand the skills that learners develop while undertaking this qualification.

The committee found that there is a lack of clarity about the meaning and implementation of the Welsh Government’s policy of universal adoption for the Welsh bac. While some centres of learning adopt a mandatory approach to its study, others do not. In many cases this variability has led to a sense of unfairness and to some learners moving from one institution to another simply to avoid the Welsh bac. It has also led to a perception that the requirement to take the Welsh bac might be compromising young people’s future options and, as a result, might impact on their rights. Our recommendation called on the Welsh Government, as a matter of priority, to issue strengthened and more detailed guidance on its policy for universal adoption. We believe that guidance should set out clearly the circumstances in which learners may be exempt from studying the skills challenge certificate.

We were pleased to see that the Welsh Government is developing updated guidance on the Welsh bac and that the policy of universal adoption of the Welsh bac will be included in that guidance. However, the committee hopes and expects that guidance to include the detail that we called for, and we will monitor the development of the guidance very closely. It is also essential that, in developing that guidance, a rigorous and comprehensive child rights impact assessment is undertaken.

We have heard that the introduction of the Welsh bac, along with wider education reforms in recent years, has led to timetables being stretched. As a consequence, options and choices for learners are perceived to have narrowed. While it cannot be denied that the introduction of the skills challenge certificate and wider education reforms leave less capacity in the timetable for other learning, if designed and implemented effectively, we believe the Welsh bac has the potential to widen learners' skills and experiences.

Appropriate levels of training, development and resources for those charged with delivery of the Welsh bac was also a clear concern for many of those who gave evidence. Such concerns are not limited to this particular qualification and the committee has heard similar views in relation to other education reforms. We believe that the Welsh Government can help improve the delivery of the Welsh bac by ensuring that initial teacher education and continuing professional development are fit for purpose for its delivery. Again, we very much welcome that the Welsh Government has accepted our recommendations in this respect.

The education sector is facing a period of reform on an unprecedented scale. With so much change on the horizon, it is essential that we all work together to help ensure that our learners receive the quality education that they deserve. As a committee, we will be monitoring that reform agenda closely, and the teaching of the Welsh bac going forward will play a big part in that.

The committee is positive about the Welsh baccalaureate qualification, and if the changes outlined in our report are delivered, we believe that the future of the Welsh bac, and its learners, is bright. Thank you very much.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for, Lynne, for chairing what I thought was one of the most enjoyable inquiries we've had with the Children, Young People and Education Committee—in the time I've been there, anyway—not least because it gave us the chance to collect evidence directly from young people with experience, past and present, of course the bac has been around for a while in different versions, and its component parts as well.

Members, of course, will know that on the basis of the evidence presented to the committee, the Welsh Conservatives have announced their policy of dropping the bac, but the report, of course, itself does not recommend that. On the basis that the Government will be in power for a year or two yet, I still expect them to take action—urgent action in some cases—on the back of the committee's live recommendations.

Every other element of the qualification should surely already be mainstreamed into the existing curriculum and qualifications by now, but I did have great hopes, actually, with the skills challenge certificate in its most recent iteration, particularly the community challenge side of this. The skills challenge aims to develop literacy, numeracy and digital skills, but also critical thinking, problem solving, planning and organisation skills, creativity and innovation, and personal effectiveness. And actually, who's not going to want that for our young people? I'd say these skills are essential for personal empowerment, resilient communities, effective leadership in work and public life, and any hope for the Welsh economy as well, if I can add that. But they're also pretty much the same aims as for the new curriculum and that's why we as Welsh Conservatives don't think we need both. And I draw Members' attention in particular to recommendation 10, which says, in essence, learn from the mistakes of the bac and get the new curriculum right.

A quick look at the recommendations gives a flavour of the ongoing problems—we've heard some from Lynne already: the need for a statement of Welsh Government vision for the bac; guidance about expectation on delivering resources—I'm pleased to see movement on that; an awareness-raising campaign to increase understanding; clarity on whether it's compulsory; clarity on whether post-16 students are choosing to study where the bac's not compulsory; better understanding of the impact of the workload on learners' mental health and well-being; and better understanding of the effect of the bac on other options on the curriculum. This is a qualification that has been around for a while now, so that is a lot of concerns still to be raising about it.

Only last week, I met students at Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd who really valued the skills challenge. This is a school that is wholly committed to it and the ethos, actually, of the new curriculum is already being felt and implemented throughout that school. But it wasn't a consistent experience across Wales. We took compelling evidence from learners across Wales—now, we accept that parents' attitudes may inevitably colour their children's views—but these were actually tested separately in work that we did as well. When young people were surveyed, over half of those studying the foundation level skills challenge thought it was less useful than other qualifications in preparing them for work and life. This is the purpose of the skills challenge. Two thirds of them thought it was more time consuming, even though the majority thought it was no more or less difficult than traditional study.

The same is true of the national-level skills challenge certificate, although in this case, 70 per cent of students thought it was too time consuming. That post-16 students felt the same was enough to convince me, especially as a third of them said that they thought that it was less difficult than A-levels, despite it being more time consuming—two thirds of them thought that. And that should concern us, I think, because the bac is sold to universities as an A-level equivalent, but if it's being used by some universities as a reason to lower other entry grades, alongside other schemes offering candidates lower grades if they prioritise that particular university for their UCAS applications, we need to have a think about that, because lowering entry requirements is a bad sign for the higher education sector more generally. And citing the bac as a driver of that does actually worry me, rather than give me confidence in its robustness—