Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 2 October 2019

290 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy and Transport

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And the first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the first question is from Neil McEvoy.

Neil McEvoy (Independent, South Wales Central)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on public transport provision in Cardiff? OAQ54424

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, of course. We continue to invest in a modern and integrated public transport system in Cardiff, which includes local bus services, active travel and the transformational south Wales metro. Integrated public transport is, of course, key to promoting a modal shift from the personal car to more sustainable modes of transport.

Neil McEvoy (Independent, South Wales Central)

Minister, in the last week, we've seen extreme flooding in areas of Cardiff, no doubt made worse by the concreting of fields for Labour's disastrous local development plan, and the culling of trees and woodland also. Over the summer, roads were closed for building work for Labour's local destruction plan—because that's the correct term really—and the first of thousands of very expensive houses are already being built. But there's no sign of the metro—no sign of it—and there's no extra public transport provision at all, it seems. But there is an extraordinary level of congestion and resulting air pollution right now. Does your party regret giving over our countryside to corporate developers to make a packet, and do you accept that it was highly irresponsible to give the go-ahead to build these houses without any—any—public transport infrastructure in place?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question, and just correct him on the assertion that no provision has been made for active travel and integrated travel within the Cardiff area? The metro programme is already being advanced. Rolling stock is on order. Plans are being pursued, with the latest Welsh transport appraisal guidance study concerning the north-west corridor. And, in terms of active travel, I'm pleased to say that we as a Government have awarded £5.5 million to Cardiff Council in the current financial year to help deliver active travel improvements across the city. This includes £2.9 million for eight strategic schemes, and an expansion of the incredibly successful Nextbike scheme.

In addition, we are taking action to combat what I call the 'carbon canyon', which is the concentrated air pollution area in this city. We are identifying means, with Cardiff Council, of reducing the use of the private vehicle within the city, and just this week I have been in discussions with my officials about how we can embark on an unprecedented campaign to replant trees as we face the ash dieback problems. It's my belief that more trees—I'm sure that we would agree entirely—do have to be planted across Wales, and in particular in our urban areas. Now, I'm a passionate believer in careful land management within urban environments that sees more green spaces created, and more trees planted, and that's a key component of 'Planning Policy Wales', which is being adjusted, and I think it's absolutely essential as well that local authorities pay due regard to the need for green spaces. It's not just good for the environment, it's also good for mental health and well-being.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, I hear what you say about public transport, and it's very important that we invest in good models of public transport, especially the experience that people get to make that change from the car on to buses. I was in the village of Creigiau recently, and whilst there are bus stops in the village, it was raised with me that they cannot get bus shelters or dropped kerbs for disability access. Now, I appreciate a lot of that work is undertaken by the local authority, but when you make grants available to local authorities, do you make checks on the overall experience that's available to users of public transport when issuing those grants? It's one thing having a nice new bus that might look nice and shiny on the road, but if there's no disability access at the bus shelter, or if people are expected to stay out in the elements when it's raining and pouring down, people will revert back to their car. So, do you not agree with me that it's important that we look at the overall experience that passengers get, and, where money can be invested, it needs to be invested in bus shelters and dropped kerbs to make disability access the norm rather than an exception?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'd agree entirely with the Member. The experience that a member of the public has at a bus stop is just as important as the experience that they have on the actual bus. And I'm pleased that we've been able to support local government in Wales, in this financial year, with enhanced bus-related infrastructure that includes modern, fit-for-purpose bus stops. The Member will also be aware of the White Paper that was published recently concerning the future of public transport in Wales, specifically bus services and the creation of quality partnerships that will lead to enhanced service provision, and enhanced provision within bus stops and along routes, including, for example, free Wi-Fi not just on buses but potentially at bus stops.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

2. What plans does the Welsh Government have to assist small business growth in Wales? OAQ54430

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Thank you. In line with our economic action plan, we remain committed to supporting small businesses throughout Wales. And the development bank is assisting with its bilingual advice service and financial support for businesses to start and grow. Furthermore, the Business Wales accelerated growth programme provides specialist tailored support for businesses with significant growth potential.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that. And I do understand your drive and ambition to help small businesses in Wales. But, of course, last week, the shadow Chancellor, for the shadow bench, stated at your conference that he'd introduce a 32-hour week within a decade if Labour come into power. Now, how does this equate with your desire to encourage small business growth, as employers will have limited capacity to employ more staff, but their working hours will reduce? I've been in receipt of a number of telephone calls on this issue, so clarification on what the Welsh Government would do, or how you might manage the situation, will be something that I think small business owners will be raising more and more in the future.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I'd say, first and foremost, the proposals are ambitious. They are right as well, in my view, but they're not without challenge, which is why a 10-year period has been presented as a transition for a reduction in the working week. What is most important within the UK economy right now is the twin challenge of a lack of inclusive growth—i.e. a lack of fair growth, and regions, therefore, being left behind—and a lack of productivity. And it appears to me, based on international expertise, that the productivity challenge can be addressed through reducing the working week, as we have seen in France, where productivity improved as a consequence of reducing the working week to four days. I believe that we can apply the same model within the UK and we can achieve the same outcomes as France has enjoyed.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Minister, small business is the backbone of our economy and needs a low tax, red-tape-free environment in order to thrive. However, the biggest barrier to growth currently is poor infrastructure. According to the Federation of Small Businesses, a majority of businesses in Wales have found they're affected by Government making decisions on infrastructure. It's not just the Government's failure to deliver the promised M4 relief road, but it's the state of the road network and poor public transport links. So, Minister, how does your Government plan to address the FSB's concerns over the next 12 months?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, the FSB report, I think, was incredibly helpful and we'll be considering it very carefully. I would say, in terms of ambitious programmes for infrastructure, the £5 billion rail franchise, the transformational south Wales metro, the north Wales metro, which is making great strides, the development of a south-west Wales metro as well, all demonstrate that this Welsh Government has huge ambition for public transport and the infrastructure that's required to underpin it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Can the Minister tell me when Wales can expect to have a reliable rail service?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Wales has a reliable—[Interruption.] Wales has a reliable rail service. However, that service is not without faults, and that is something that Transport for Wales have admitted to. I think if we look at, historically, the problems associated with underinvestment by the UK Government, we'll understand that the lack of decent signalling and the lack of major infrastructure improvements have contributed to a lack of reliability not just today but in many years previous.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Minister, there'll be many people across Wales who will not agree with you that we have a reliable rail service. You have great aspirations, which I would welcome and agree with, but passengers want to know when they can expect a rail service that is reliable now. Passengers want to see improvements now, not just in the future. But this is what you told the people of Wales last year, and I'm quoting you here,

'Let me be absolutely clear: in the coming months and years, we will deliver groundbreaking transformation of transport across the country'.

I'm sure that you will agree that we are not seeing that transformation and we're not seeing an acceptable level of service. This summer, we saw an unacceptable level of delays, cancellations, short-form trains. On the Cambrian line, which serves my own constituency, only 61 per cent of trains arrived on time between June and July, with many others being cancelled. There is a shortage of drivers, resulting in further cancellations, and, according to Transport for Wales's own website, 2019 was going to see an increased capacity on the Valleys lines. However, according to their own statistics, only 81 per cent of trains arrived on time between June and July. Is this the groundbreaking transformation that you had in mind?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, let me just repeat some of the groundbreaking measures we've already undertaken as a consequence of us letting this franchise agreement. We have put in orders for £800 million of new trains—more than 130 trains and light rail tram units. Last week, or the week before, I announced £194 million of improvements for stations. Compare that to £600,000 that was spent in the previous 15 years. Halton curve services have begun in the north, and I'm delighted to be able to tell Members today that, next week, I will be detailing how we will be achieving a 10 per cent increase in capacity at the end of this year on the rail franchise network. Members will be interested as well to hear more about the four-carriage trains that are going to be introduced on peak Valleys lines services, which will provide more space for commuters every week. We're going to be introducing—and I'll detail this next week, again—more modern trains with more space and onboard passenger information systems, accessible toilets and free Wi-Fi, and I'll be detailing improved long-distance services between north Wales and Manchester, as well as a much improved journey time between south Wales and north Wales.

But I would add that this has not been a journey without challenge, but much of the challenge relates to the infrastructure that is outdated or is not fit for purpose, and that is not a responsibility of Transport for Wales or the Welsh Government; that remains a responsibility of UK Government. If we are to address that problem, we need to have responsibility for infrastructure and funding devolved to the Welsh Government.

And the Member does pick up on the important point of reliability on the Cambrian line over the summer. Well, of course, much of the problem with the Cambrian line over the summer relates to the signalling equipment that is utilised on the Cambrian line. That is the responsibility not of Transport for Wales but of Network Rail—i.e. UK Government. We are hoping that this will be overcome, but, of course, it's been a challenge not of our making.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Well, thank you, Minister. You've referred to the Cambrian line. Well, trains are being pulled off the Cambrian line to be used in other parts of Wales. That isn't the responsibility of Network Rail; that's the responsibility of Transport for Wales and yourself.

Now, last autumn, we saw huge disruption across the rail network, and we saw at one point the fleet reduced from 127 trains to just 86. Now, we know that we expect autumn weather every year in the way it comes to us, but I would have thought that our rail services would have been reliable enough during the warm and dry period this summer, which hasn't been the case. So, that does bring, of course, the concern for where passengers are going to be left this autumn. So, considering the appalling delays and cancellations over the summer, can you assure the people of Wales, and commuters, that this autumn will not be anywhere near the level of disruption that they saw last year?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Russell George for giving me an opportunity to address this very serious issue? If we go back to the autumn of last year, we'll all recall that there was a very serious problem with what are called 'wheel flats' caused by the lack of wheel-slide protection on trains. It was a unique problem for the rolling stock fleet that we adopted from Arriva Trains Wales. Now, the Member identifies, rightly, that trains were withdrawn from the Cambrian line and many other lines over the summer holiday period, in order to have wheel-slide protection kits fitted to them. Scores of trains over the summer had wheel-slide protection kits applied to them as part of our £40 million upgrade of the existing fleet, which will be in operation while we await the new trains, which will be delivered from 2022 onward. So, I'm pleased to be able to say to Members today that those trains that were not fitted with wheel-slide protection kits last year, which were not operating as a consequence of that or which did suffer from wheel slide, now have that vital kit applied to them.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's preparations for industry 4.0?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question? He'll be aware of the report that Professor Brown conducted for us on this, which we have now published and we will be responding to it accordingly. But alongside this work, the implementation of the economic action plan continues with the economic contract driving inclusive, fair growth and behavioural change within business settings, and the calls to action designed to futureproof businesses. And as part of the calls to action, we're investing heavily in the industries of tomorrow and in the components of those industries, such as automation and artificial intelligence, which will drive productivity and jobs growth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I look forward to the full response on Professor Brown's report. What he saw was that too many Welsh companies are locked into low-value parts of worldwide chains and, actually, that there's little scope for higher value roles in areas like research and development and international procurement.

Now Professor Brown further argues that the Welsh workforce, as a result, will be exposed to quality-cost competition as companies seek to automate less valuable parts of their chains. We know that automation is happening and that it will accelerate, so the window for taking action to prepare for that is narrowing. So, what preparations are Welsh Government making to provide retraining opportunities, for example, for those who are and will increasingly be affected by automation?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'm pleased to be able to tell Members today that the implementation of our plans for individual learning accounts has been commenced and this programme is now being rolled out. What it enables individuals in work to do is to have financial support in order to undergo training and retraining specifically to address the challenges that industry 4.0 will present, and the need to ensure that they are fully equipped to take full advantage of the new jobs that will be created in the transition to an automated society.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

One thing that Professor Brown identifies is that gross value added measures are a very good indication of how prepared an economy is for automation. And the report highlights the sheer scale of the challenge for Wales in particular in preparing the workforce for advances in automation because of a failure to increase our GVA. And if we look at GVA figures by region, then it's very, very uncomfortable reading for you, as Welsh Government, I'm sure.

London produces 33 per cent more than the UK average. You've been in your role now since 2016. It's very fair now, after that amount of time, to assess how successful the steps you have taken have been in increasing GVA. It's not a good story to tell. So, how prepared can we be for automation when our GVA under your leadership, as economy Minister, is still lagging so far behind?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, let's just look at the facts, the figures. Since 2004, Welsh productivity growth has been fourth highest of all the UK regions and nations. The fourth highest. We are coming from an incredibly low base, I would admit that, but since devolution we've performed incredibly well, especially in recent times. If you look at some of the other measurements supplied to the economy, such as gross domestic product, which recently showed Wales outpacing the UK average, we are performing very well indeed. But, of course, we have Brexit looming and that could lead to a contraction in the economy.

Against this backdrop of uncertainty, we are investing in facilities that are designed to drive productivity, such as the advanced manufacturing research centre, which will open in November in Deeside. That facility alone will have a GVA contribution of something in the region of £3 billion and will drive innovation and the diffusion of innovation across the aerospace and automotive sectors in particular. But we're also investing very heavily elsewhere, for example, in the National Digital Exploitation Centre, which, again, is designed to drive innovation and skills development across the Welsh economy. There are a plethora of enterprise hubs and facilities similar to enterprise hubs that we've been able to fund across Wales, designed to encourage and support entrepreneurs to grow their own businesses and to share experience with other entrepreneurs.

I'm confident that with a record number of businesses in existence, with unemployment at a near-record low, with employment at a record high, and inactivity at a record low, the Welsh economy and the Welsh workforce are well placed to meet future challenges. But that's not to say that Brexit will assist. If anything, Brexit is going to be a major challenge that we are going to struggle to overcome, unless we get the financial support through the Kingfisher fund and other funding resources from UK Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Brexit Party spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, outside of the UK, the European Union is now officially a low-growth economic region. Even the once-mighty German economy is now stagnating because, unlike the UK, where a large percentage of our business base is taken up by small and medium-sized enterprises, Germany's economy is dominated by large multinational corporations and it is heavily dependent on its export markets. Does the Minister not agree with me that should a ludicrous tariff war follow a 'no deal' Brexit the German economy will be far more damaged than that of the UK?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'm more concerned with the UK economy rather than the German economy. The German economy has been referred to as a low-growth economy. I always struggle with the idea of a low-growth economy being a poorly performing economy if that low growth is sustainable. It's my firm belief that we shouldn't be chasing, as Greta Thunberg recently put it, this fairytale of eternal high growth. Growth has to be sustainable. And if you look at the market of the EU, it's still a market to which we send the majority of our exports; it is a sustainable market for the UK to be part of. So, whilst we can become obsessed with other economies around the globe, let's just look at our own and focus on what we can do to improve the UK economy and the Welsh economy. We have certain levers here in Wales to improve the Welsh economy, but, ultimately, the UK Government must decide on a course of action that will benefit the economy of Wales and the UK, and that course of action will not lead to any net benefits if the UK Government decide to drive us off a cliff at the end of October.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Minister for his answer although, of course, I wouldn't particularly agree with his conclusions. Yesterday evening, Minister, I had a very interesting conversation with an Italian bartender. [Interruption.] I shall say at this moment that I was quite sober when I had this conversation—well, at least I wasn't inebriated. But having holidayed many times and being a lover of the Italian way of life, I expressed my surprise at the fact that, for a country that always seemed in economic turmoil, no more so than now, the way of life seemed far superior to that enjoyed in the UK.

I was extremely surprised by his answer, Minister. He told me that far from being a contented and happy population, there was a huge underbelly of discontent, based mainly on a lack of well-paid jobs and commercial opportunity. This contrasted with the UK where, when he arrived some five years earlier, he said he could not believe the job opportunities and pay levels enjoyed by most of the population. He was talking here of Wales, actually, Minister. By the way, having looked at the continued residency regulations, he had no fears about deportation. He went on to say that a growing number of Italians were completely disillusioned with the EU, and applauded the UK's Brexit vote. They now saw the EU as a stifling influence on the Italian economy and resented the EU's political interventions in the country's affairs.

Whilst I acknowledge that this is just one individual's opinion and experience, does the Minister not think it is time we cut the shackles of the Brussels political ambitions and looked out to a world of high economic growth, where some countries' growth levels are five times that of the EU, and where we already enjoy £300 billion-worth of exports?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'm delighted that you've been engaging with the Italians of Cardiff Bay. I imagine, given you're a Brexit member, he only thanked you when you left his bar if you gave him a very big tip. If we look at the Italian economy, we'll see similar trends there as in the UK. You have some high-performing regions within Italy, primarily in the north, and then you have parts of Italy that are really struggling, where young, talented people feel that they have no choice but to leave, and they're primarily in the south. I don't know where your Italian bartender came from in Italy, but of course he chose Wales and he's happy here, and I'm glad that he is here, and long may he stay here because he sounds—based on the experience you had—a very good member of the community and a hard-working person, which is not the way that the Brexit Party portrays foreign nationals on a normal basis.

I think what's important is that we recognise that Wales should be and always has been a very welcoming place to foreign nationals. Whilst we enjoy the company of Italians and many other European citizens here in Wales, many European countries enjoy the presence of British people, and I'm really concerned that the rhetoric that we hear now across the UK, but primarily from some of the right-wing elements of the media, give the impression to the outside world that we are looking inward, that we are no longer welcoming and that we resent the presence of foreign nationals in the UK. That is a very, very dangerous position to be in. And we alone as a Welsh Government cannot combat the impression that I'm afraid is emerging across the globe of the United Kingdom as a little England. We need the UK Government to behave far more responsibly in the messages that it sends out about what sort of country we want to be in the twenty-first century, and I want us to be an internationalist country.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

3. Will the Minister provide an update on the roll-out of new trains for the Rhondda as part of the new rail franchise? OAQ54419

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, delighted to do so, because Transport for Wales will introduce new light-rail metro vehicles, or tram trains, on the Rhondda line from 2022. These will include free onboard Wi-Fi, power sockets, electronic passenger information, and they'll include air conditioning and increased storage capacity for bikes.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

But, so far, no toilets. Minister, I wish I didn't have to keep raising the train service in Wales with you, but things are getting worse. Services are being taken off the timetable; carriages are being taken off peak-time services on the Valleys lines. Now, I catch the train regularly and the peak-time experience is more often than not uncomfortable and bordering on unsafe. This is not just my view; it's the view of the train guards that are tasked with placating angry passengers and trying to maintain safety. It's an unacceptable situation that shows no sign of being solved within the next two months either, as rolling stock will not come on stream until early December.

I had a message just this morning from a mother whose child was left stranded on a station and ended up being late for school because of the overcrowding. Minister, someone is going to get hurt unless this situation is resolved. Do you share my concerns about these overcrowding issues, and if not, why not? And what do you have to say to those passengers who have to continue to endure these appalling conditions for at least another two months? And can you note, Minister, I'm asking you here about trains and not stations?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Of course I share the concerns of passengers, of course I do, but let me give the Member just some detail about what's going to be coming very soon—yes, in December, but that's the soonest that we can get the new rolling stock on the lines with the December timetable change.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

You've been in charge of the railways a long time now.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Let me give some facts and figures to the Member that she can no doubt, and will no doubt, promote to the media and champion. First of all, by the end of 2022, there are going to be 400 more seats on services from Treherbert to Cardiff in the morning peak, and 300 more seats from Cardiff to Treherbert in the evening peak. Journey times are going to reduce from one hour to 50 minutes, and by December—the end of December—we will have increased capacity by 10 per cent through the introduction of additional rolling stock, which is incredibly hard to source right now, given the state of the industry across the UK and, indeed, further afield.

But the Member raises the important question of toilets on tram trains. You know, you as leader of Plaid Cymru made a statement in support of tram trains. You said that,

'Plaid Cymru has put forward an exciting vision for the future of Wales’ transport infrastructure, that includes investing in new light rail networks'.

Your economy and transport spokesperson has done so.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Not without toilets though. You've still got to have toilets on them.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Your current leader has talked about the need for light-rail tram trains. Can you identify—? Leanne Wood, can you identify a single light-rail tram-train on-street system on the planet that has accessible—?

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Germany. Munich.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Germany and Munich. Yes, right, Germany and Munich—

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

I've got photographs on my phone. Do you want to see them?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Their trams would not be legal here because of the persons with reduced mobility compliance. They have to have toilets that can be accessible by disabled people. Are you saying that you would run tram-trains in Wales that disabled people could not access? Because that is shameful, if that's your position.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

They're not going to have toilets, full stop, though. Disabled—

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Surely, when you said that tram-trains should be operating in Wales, you didn't understand what they actually were. That is surely the position, because no single tram-train is currently available with disabled access toilets on board.

We are introducing significant investment so that disabled people are able to access, step-free, every single station on the metro network—every single one. And we are introducing a huge amount of investment to ensure that we have universally accessible toilets at stations within the metro area. Furthermore, Llywydd, it should be noted, because I think Mark Barry got it absolutely right this morning in the Western Mail when he said that there is misrepresentation of this situation concerning toilets. It should be noted that every single new train—more than a 110 of them—every single train on the Wales and borders franchise, and on those metro lines that won't be operating tram-trains, will have fully compliant accessible toilets.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

What's important, again, in a follow-up to my first question to you about buses, is the overall experience when it comes to the rail network. When I was in an earlier mode of a transport spokesman for the Conservative group, I always remember speaking to Network Rail, saying that a lot of the CCTV cameras that sit in stations are not court compatible, i.e. they cannot be used as evidence against vandalism or any other anti-social behaviour. Can you give a commitment today, Minister, that any CCTV upgrades—and I hope there'll be many CCTV upgrades on stations—will be court compatible, so that if vandalism or anti-social activity does happen at our stations, people will feel the full force of the law and have the consequences?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'll give that undertaking, as part of the £194 million station upgrade. We are keenly looking at improved security, and as part of that we're going to be introducing more CCTV facilities that can be utilised by the police and court prosecutions. But I'll happily provide more information to the Member.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government will improve disabled access to railways in Wales? OAQ54423

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, as part of our plans for a fully integrated public transport network across Wales, we are fully committed to public transport for disabled people that removes barriers to travel, that empowers people and that promotes rather than inhibits independent living.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

It was November of last year when there was a picture of you in the local paper, The Leader, announcing investment to improve disabled access to Ruabon station, in your constituency, of course. It’s almost 12 months since then, and that investment hasn’t yet happened. Constituents tell me that they feel that they’ve been misled in that regard. So, can I ask you whether you regret being vocal in the local papers that there was going to be investment, when that clearly hasn’t happened? And do you take responsibility for the failure to implement your pledge?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, quite the opposite. We've made available £10 million as match funding for the UK Government's Access for All programme. We nominated 15 stations for the Access for All programme. We were pleased, of course, that seven of our 15 were accepted, but eight were not—Ruabon was one of them. However, I can tell the Member today that we will be progressing, again, with the latest round of Access for All nominations, and those stations that were not included in the last priority list by the UK Government will be put forward again. But in addition to this, we've also announced that there'll be £15 million of funding available for stations across the Wales and borders franchise to improve accessibility, and we'll be looking at those stations where disabled passengers at the moment face the biggest barriers in terms of accessing services.

Ruabon station I'm more than familiar with because it's my local station, and I was bitterly disappointed, therefore, that the UK Government decided not to utilise the money that we, as a Welsh Government, were putting forward for improved facilities. But I do hope that in the spring, when they put out the call for additional nominations, that they will accept Ruabon station.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Minister, many of our railway stations have been inadequate when it comes to disabled access for a considerable length of time now. I know, as you've said, you've been trying to address this. You've just mentioned the list of Access for All stations. Abergavenny station was on the list, I believe, that was put forward by the Welsh Government, and I think was successful following discussions that you had with the UK Government Department for Transport and the hard work of local campaigners, including the local county councillor Maureen Powell—I know all have been in touch with you. I wonder if you could update us on the current status of Abergavenny station. It's clearly an important station locally, for me as the local Assembly Member, but also an important part of the network in Wales as a whole. So, where are we with the upgrade of that station and the implementation of disabled access?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I'd happily write to the Member with details of the work that's been undertaken as we develop plans to make it step-free, and it will be a wholly step-free station. But I'll also happily update Members on the other six stations and the work that's been undertaken to draw down UK Government funding, through the Access for All programme, as soon as progress can be made and I can report back.FootnoteLink

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Minister, I've been contacted, obviously, by a number of disabled people for whom access to railways does relate to, often, the availability of toilets, and I'm aware of the comments you made in the answer to the last question. Where the issue seems to arise now is that what you seem to be saying is that, certainly on heavy rail, there will be toilets, but that, as with buses, on light rail, it would be effectively contrary to regulations. It would be illegal to actually do that, therefore it is not legally possible to do. Could I ask, then, that what we actually have is a briefing that sets out clearly what the regulatory framework is and why it is, because at the moment my understanding until now, and I'm sure of others, was that this was a matter of cost or whatever, whereas in actual fact it seems there are other reasons? It's very important that we have an understanding of the basis of the decision making.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

There are numerous reasons why toilets can't be fitted to light-rail tram-trains. One of the reasons, of course, is the additional weight and lack of manoeuvrability if you install such facilities. Another includes the risk of discharge on streets from those toilets if you don't carry enough tank capacity. There are also issues with manoeuvrability—the whole point of having those light-rail solutions is you can accelerate and decelerate quicker, that you can go around sharp bends and that you can go up and down steeper inclines. Having somebody in a toilet when you do that can be very dangerous indeed.

But, of course, there's also the challenge of compliance, as Mick Antoniw says, with PRM legislation, and by the end of this year, all of our trains, all of our rolling stock, have to be PRM compliant. We have not been able to identify a single system on the planet that is PRM compatible—not a single system. If one becomes available, if science can be defied and it's possible to put a disabled access toilet into a tram-train, and have it operate safely on-street, i.e. so that the driver can see through the carriageway, then, of course, we would adopt that technical solution. But as of today, there are no such solutions available.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

5. What discussions has the Minister had about maximising the benefits of the construction of sections 5 and 6 of the A465 Heads of the Valleys road? OAQ54410

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We're working with the Valleys taskforce to maximise the economic benefits resulting from the dualling. This includes challenging targets during construction of sections 5 and 6 for training and employment, work packages for local businesses, spend with Welsh companies and engagement with local schools.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Minister. My question follows on from a question that I asked the Deputy Minister on this topic in Plenary just before recess. My constituency contains two villages that border the Heads of the Valleys road, both of which suffer from terrible broadband. In fact, I had an e-mail from a constituent in one of those villages just last night saying that the 3MB connection is what they could get on a good day. Those villages are Penderyn and Croesbychan, a hamlet of Llwydcoed. It's my understanding that when the construction process goes ahead, Openreach will be laying new cables alongside the road. And so, what I would ask of you is: would you be willing to have a dialogue with Openreach to see if community benefits can be brought? It seems like the ideal time to actually finally lay good infrastructure to those villages and a cost-effective way of doing so.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think the Member is absolutely right. Vikki Howells identifies two villages where broadband connectivity is currently poor. We will take up this matter with Openreach on her behalf, but I can assure the Member that, as we progress the A465 supplementary infrastructure along the route, we'll include spare ducts across the A465 that could be utilised for improved broadband services. If I may say so, could I also thank Dawn Bowden for chairing the sub-committee of the Valleys taskforce that is looking specifically at the benefits of the investment in this transport infrastructure?

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on support for small businesses in Pembrokeshire? OAQ54404

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Absolutely. In line with our economic action plan, we remain committed to supporting small businesses across Wales. Our Business Wales and the Development Bank of Wales both offer bilingual advice, support and financial support.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, one way that the Welsh Government could better support small businesses in Pembrokeshire is by tackling the various infrastructure issues that they face, including roads, public transport and digital infrastructure. I'm sure you're aware of the recent report by FSB Wales that found that 63 per cent of Welsh businesses have been affected by poor infrastructure. That same report went on to call for greater cross-party working to address those problems. Can you therefore tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to better tackle some of the infrastructure issues in Pembrokeshire, so that small businesses in my constituency can actually compete on a level playing field with other businesses across Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The Welsh Government is investing very heavily in infrastructure within the Member's region, including investment in the upgrades to the A40—crucially important—with the proposed bypass around the northern side of Llanddewi Velfrey. In addition, the Deputy Minister has already outlined proposals for dealing with some of the hard-to-reach areas concerning digital connectivity. I think it's fair to say that it's our view that there should be a public service obligation pursued for broadband provision, similar to that which exists for the Royal Mail. It's appalling that we live in the twenty-first century and there is no such obligation to provide a basic minimum broadband speed to all premises across the United Kingdom.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

7. Will the Minister provide an update on the work being carried out to extend the frequency of rail services on the Maesteg line? OAQ54441

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. A study commissioned by Transport for Wales into enhancing the frequency of rail services along the Maesteg rail line was submitted to the Welsh Government in the summer and officials are currently considering the proposals.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

That is really good news to hear, because he knows how keen local campaigners have been, and I've been, to chase progress on this. We recognise that this will not be an overnight fix, but to increase the frequency will not only be good for passengers along the north-of-Bridgend line, but actually along the whole of the main line, because it could actually relieve pressure. We're very much looking forward, I have to say, to the introduction of a Sunday service—sometime in the autumn, in December, I understand. This itself will be the reintroduction of a service that we lost probably four or five decades ago, and we've been cut off on Sundays ever since. So, that will be a huge impact as well.

But I wonder: does he have any idea how he will take these studies forward, how he will engage with the local authority, with me and other campaigners on the increased frequency? Because whilst we are looking forward, I have to say, to the new carriages coming in, because all those refurbished carriages—. All those people who know anything about railways have been telling me that those refurbished carriages will not only introduce new and extended capacity, but the quality of them will be quite something, compared to what we've currently got. But having, particularly at peak times, better frequency will be not only good for people in Maesteg, but in Pontyclun, Llanharan, Pencoed and everywhere along the main line.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Huw Irranca-Davies is a fantastic, strong and passionate advocate for improved services on the Maesteg line; of that, there is absolutely no doubt. I'd happily meet with him and the leader of the local authority to discuss how we take forward the study that's been received by my officials. They're working already with the local authority, with Bridgend council, to discuss the findings before proceeding further with this work. But I am delighted to say that the first Sunday service will coincide with the national timetable change, which is 15 December. I can inform Members today that the sale of tickets will begin around eight weeks before journeys, which means that tickets will be available near the end of October for that new Sunday service.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, you may also recall previous correspondence between us regarding delayed prioritisation of a passing loop for the Maesteg-Bridgend line. The last time that I looked at this, you explained that it was going to be deferred to the 2018-19 budget from the previous year's budget. This has been put back for several years already, so perhaps you can explain the delay. But you may also remember my disappointment about the low priority for the Valleys in my region, including the Llynfi, in the transport proposals they're getting through the Cardiff city deal. I don't think the Government and the city deal working separately convinces me of any strategic vision or delivery plan for this part of my region, and so I'm asking who's responsible for bringing these strands, including on the Valleys taskforce, together so that we get a clear picture for this part of my region.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, that sort of responsibility should rest in the hands of TfW as delivery partner, but I'm pleased to say that TfW are, with regard to the Llynfi passing loop, already carrying out an early technical assessment of the re-use of that particular loop, and, in addition, improvements at Tondu station. But I'd happily meet with the Member to look at additional services and infrastructure improvements that could be made in her area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the planned improvements to transport infrastructure in mid-Wales? OAQ54414

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Our national transport finance plan, which was last updated in May of this year, sets out our transport investment proposals here in Wales.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Minister. You'll be aware of the real issues around Dyfi bridge in Machynlleth. It's a real pinchpoint on the A487, and you'll be aware, when the bridge is closed, there's a 30-mile round trip for commuters on a diversion. The bridge has been closed again during the recent bad weather, and there is concern that there's not sufficient monitoring taking place. There is CCTV in the area, and I'm also told the flood barrier gates on the trunk road should have been open much earlier than they were. So, there are some real practical issues, I think, that need to be resolved. But also you wrote to me last month to say that the Dyfi bridge project had seen a number of changes to its scope on the development phase, and that you required the final costs before being able to make a decision. I wonder if you could update me on that—because this is particularly exercising people that live in that area of my constituency—in terms of the current situation and the new bridge moving forward.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I do wish to move forward with this project at maximum speed. Can I thank the Member for attending a recent meeting where the Dyfi bridge was discussed and where my officials were able to provide a briefing to Members and also to the local authority? I'll certainly ask officials to examine the potential of improved monitoring at the bridge, and a revised cost estimate for the construction scheme will need to be agreed with the early contractor, as the project has seen a number of changes to scope in the development phase. But once I've received an indication of final costs I will be in a position to determine whether or not to publish the orders for this scheme. I wish that work to be undertaken as swiftly as possible, and I anticipate that I'll be in a position to be able to make a decision by the end of this year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Brexit Minister (in respect of his Brexit Minister responsibilities)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Brexit Minister, and I call on Russell George to ask the first question.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

1. Will the Counsel General make a statement on how many businesses have sought support and advice from the Welsh Government's Brexit portal? OAQ54438

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

To date, there have been over 37,000 users of the Business Wales Brexit portal, with over 52,500 page views.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can I thank the Counsel General for his answer? In a response from the economy and transport Minister yesterday, there does appear to be relatively few businesses that have sought business advice from the Welsh Government's official Brexit portal. In what ways is the Welsh Government looking to engage with small and medium-sized businesses particularly, particularly businesses who may not be members of other bodies as well, to help them realise the challenges and opportunities that Brexit brings? I wonder how many people are aware—or rather small and medium-sized businesses are aware—that the Brexit portal actually exists also.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that question. We do all that we can, clearly, to communicate the advice and guidance that is available. As I think the Member's question implicitly acknowledges, there are many businesses, because they don't have full active membership, if you like, of trade associations and so on, that may be harder to reach. We have taken every opportunity, I think, when we meet with the stakeholders with whom we have relationships who are themselves parts of broader business networks—to take the opportunity to make sure they are highlighting the availability of advice in their networks. Clearly, we meet regularly with the representative bodies, but, equally, we’ve met with professional business advisers like lawyers and accountants, to whom perhaps smaller businesses may be quicker to turn for advice. So, we’ve sought to cascade information out through those networks as well, and also, in addition to that, looking at the networks that we have through arm's-length bodies, such as the Development Bank of Wales, Careers Wales and so on, to make sure that they are communicating information to their network of businesses. But I would say that any Members who are happy and keen to disseminate those sources of advice, I would urge you to do so in your own networks and in your own constituencies as well. I thank the Member for the question.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

2. What discussions has the Counsel General had with European Union officials regarding Brexit? OAQ54436

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I plan to visit Brussels in the coming weeks for various meetings with the EU institutions, which will build on the meeting with Michel Barnier that the First Minister had in June, and meetings I held in Strasbourg in March. Our Brussels office also maintains good relationships across the EU institutions.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I noticed yesterday that you said that we needed a referendum before we had a general election. Do you not believe that European officials would appreciate a general election so that we can have a Government that will deliver on the referendum of 2016, and any muddying of the water by yourself or other Welsh Government Ministers when they meet European officials merely clouds the situation and makes it more challenging?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I’m sure the Member doesn’t seek to imply that Welsh Government shouldn’t take any opportunities to stand up for the people of Wales and represent their interests in any context in which they can. There is a real advantage to us in going to Brussels and representing the views of the Welsh Government and Wales. He will know that the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations) mechanism exists to provide devolved Governments with the ability to have some oversight over the negotiation process. He will also know, from following the proceedings in the Assembly last week, that the UK Government have decided they won’t share with us the technical papers that they’re sharing with EU institutions, which means that we don’t have as much information about those negotiations as I’m sure he would wish us to have, so we can discuss that in the Chamber here to the extent that’s appropriate. It’s also important to go so we can hear from EU institutions direct what their concerns are, but I will just say very clearly to the Member that we take great care not to undermine the UK Government’s position in any way, but we will always take the opportunity of standing up for the people of Wales and their best interests.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, why does your newly published Brexit White Paper, ‘A brighter future for Wales', make reference to national identification cards? The document states, and I quote:

‘Some have argued that a national ID card might be a price worth paying to address concerns about so-called "uncontrolled" migration from the EEA.’

Is this the Welsh Government’s view—that you want billions of pounds to be spent on documentation that presumably people will have to pay for, and that would curtail their civil liberties simply to address what you admit are unfounded concerns? If this is not the Welsh Government’s view, and I hope it isn’t, why make reference to ID cards in this document at all?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member has raised this point before, as have Members of her party, and I will just say that, in relation to a matter as sensitive as this, I think it's—you know, we shouldn’t go out of our way to look for points of division where none exist. The document to which she refers really builds on the principles of 'Securing Wales’ Future', which, obviously, was co-authored with Plaid Cymru, and indeed it further builds on the paper ‘Brexit and Fair Movement of People’, which her party also welcomed. The document does not say that ID cards are the Welsh Government’s policy—it simply says that some have argued that there are benefits to it. But I think she must see that in the context of a broader discussion in that paper, which establishes very clearly that the policy we advocate is within the boundaries, within the parameters, of freedom of movement as exercised by other EU member states.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister. There are many things in the document that we do agree with, but I would urge the Minister to see that language in the context of the Home Office's hostile environment policy. The introduction, or—. Talking about national ID cards isn't the only aspect of this document that would also cause concern to non-UK EU citizens in Wales who are already feeling threatened. The document advocates tracking migrants using national insurance so that their economic activity could be monitored—with a view, I presume, to make it easier to collect evidence that could lead to deportations. The Trefnydd yesterday denied that the document advocated forced deportations. I would ask you how this squares with the inclusion of sentences making reference to the legitimate removal of migrants and benefit tourism. Given that your Government has published a plan to make Wales a nation of sanctuary, which we welcome, and that you've in the past criticised the UK Government for their disgraceful hostile environment policy, do you now believe it was a mistake to include language in this document that has the potential to cause further distress for EU migrants living in Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I know the Member has a party conference at the end of the week, but I do think that this is not an appropriate line of questioning to be pursuing. I refer her to the point that I made—[Interruption.] I refer her to the point I made earlier, which is that this policy document builds on the language that we used in 'Brexit and Fair Movement of People', which says, in effect, that jobseekers would be asked to register in order to ensure that people seeking to work do so in a reasonable amount of time, which is what happens in other European countries, and, where that is not the case, or if they don't have a genuine prospect of employment, we should be able to ask them to leave the UK. That is the language in 'Brexit and Fair Movement of People', which your Brexit spokesperson agreed was a pragmatic approach. So, I think it's very important that we shouldn't seek to look for divisions in relation to this issue.

She will also know that, in relation to EU citizens living in Wales, the Government has taken a number of steps in order to support them in seeking to register for settled status within the UK Government scheme, including funding Citizens Advice to provide advice to them, funding a specialist immigration law service, Newfields Law, to deal with complex cases, seeking the extension of digital assistance centres across Wales so that it facilitates EU citizens seeking support, and also working with a range of charities and third sector organisations to raise awareness.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Thank you, Minister, and those things are all things that we do welcome, which is why I would really urge you to remove the references to legitimately removing migrants, benefit tourism and ID cards from this document. And, if you were to do that, then my party would be very willing to discuss it further with you and to look at voting for it, if you intend to hold a vote.

I'd like to turn finally to something we have in common. We both want a second referendum with 'remain' on the ballot, and I also have noted, with reverence, that you agree with Plaid Cymru rather than elements of your own party that there should be a referendum before an election. I would welcome that.

We've said we'd be willing to support Jeremy Corbyn to have a first shot at being caretaker Prime Minister to secure an article 50 extension and deliver a referendum—that's only fair, but it doesn't look like he'll have the numbers for that at present. So, Minister, I'd ask you, in these circumstances, would you then support someone else to be caretaker Prime Minister, an elder statesperson perhaps, to go to Brussels to secure that extension—[Interruption.]—or indeed yourself—and then to immediately call a general election? Or would you rather risk no deal than support anyone but Corbyn to be a caretaker PM?

I realise, from comments that are being made from sedentary positions by your colleagues, that this is a Westminster issue, but I'm sure you'll have an opinion on this matter, given your strongly held views that 'no deal' would be a disaster that must be averted at all costs.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, firstly, relating to the points that she raised on the document, I wish that she had raised those points before the document had been published; we would have been happy to engage in detail in relation to those in order to seek an agreed position with Plaid Cymru. But, on the broader point that she makes about parliamentary arrangements, I'm not going to be answering questions here about the Welsh Labour position in Parliament. Those are questions for Parliament. I'm happy to answer questions in relation to Welsh Government policy here in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Minister, can you clarify what your policy is on Brexit?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I'm very, very happy to do that. I'm normally—. We are normally criticised for providing so much opportunity in the Chamber for describing our Brexit policy, but I'm very happy to do so. Our position here is that we seek to remain—that Wales should remain part of the European Union, and we think the matter should be put back to the people in a referendum so the people can give their opinion, and in that referendum the Welsh Government will advocate they vote to remain members of the European Union.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I'm very grateful for that response. Of course, you could have outlined three potential responses, because the Labour Party has adopted, it seems to me, three policies. Of course, we all know that Jeremy Corbyn did, and then didn't, want a general election, and then he wants to hold conversations with the EU in order to get a deal that he might or might not support in a second referendum. The Welsh Government's position seems to be that it also wants a general election, but not quite yet, and then it wants to hold a second referendum, and no matter what deal comes back, including if that deal is supported by a Labour Prime Minister, you will campaign against it and to remain in the EU. And then, of course, there's you, as the Brexit Minister for the Welsh Government, who said just yesterday, in contradiction to both the UK Labour line and the Welsh Labour line, that you thought it would be ideal to have a second referendum before a general election, in spite of the fact that, earlier this year, at the Welsh Labour conference, you said that a second referendum isn't the best solution. What a complete and utter shambles your policy actually is. Given the fact that you have a menu of choices that you appear to be putting before the British electorate, how on earth can anybody trust you to deliver anything on Brexit?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm always happy to provide a platform for the Conservative association of Clwyd West to assess their potential candidate for the next general election, but I would just remind him that I'm not going to engage with the political badinage that he so enjoys. I would just invite him to recall that Boris Johnson was against a referendum and against an election, and is now in favour of an election and voted both for and against Theresa May's deal. So, I think, when he wants to look for confusions and a menu of options, he should look somewhat nearer to home.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I didn't quite catch what position you're taking today, in contrast to the position you had yesterday and the position of the Welsh Government and the UK Labour Party. What I will say is that, unlike the Labour Party, at least my party's got a very clear position, and that is that we want to get Brexit done. We want to deliver Brexit without any more dithering or delay, by 31 October, so that we can move on and focus on people's priorities across the country, like sorting out the mess that you've left in terms of our national health service here in Wales, raising standards in education after a decade of stagnation, and putting more police on our streets. The people of Wales have already voted, of course, on this matter, in June 2016, and, in fact, they already had a second vote as well, because they endorsed that position and the position of party manifestos, both in your party and my party, which said that they would deliver on the Brexit referendum and deliver Brexit. So, they've already had two opportunities to express a view. So, instead of being like a beast with three heads, I think it's about time that the Labour Party got behind the efforts of the UK Government to deliver a Brexit that works for the UK and works for Wales. Will you therefore adopt the position that I think your party needs to take, and that is to work collaboratively with the UK Government to deliver Brexit rather than trying to thwart it?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Might I just gently suggest that I think at the heart of his party's problem is the confusion between a slogan and a policy? Simply repeating 'Get Brexit done' is not going to get anyone anywhere, and if he thinks there is going to be money left to invest in the health service, in schools and in the police service after a 'hard deal' Brexit, I think he's living in cloud-cuckoo-land.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

3. What discussions has the Counsel General held regarding Brexit following the UK Supreme Court's recent prorogation judgment? OAQ54426

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Parliament has resumed sitting, as it should have been all along. Meanwhile, I continue to take every opportunity to speak up to protect Wales's interests, which are best served by remaining in the European Union. Later on today, I expect to be speaking to the Brexit Secretary, and I will also be attending the Joint Ministerial Council on European negotiations in the coming days.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

This Brexit-created failure in the constitution suggests that when the courts need to intervene, the constitution isn't working, and the truth is it hasn't been working for some time. Therefore, would the Minister agree that we need a written constitution, a reinvigorated federal state that is the United Kingdom, with Wales as an equal partner within that state, with a protected role, and the principle of subsidiarity being core to the new constitution, that meaning decisions made at the relevant level for the nature of that decision being made? Will he support that view, and will the Welsh Government support that view?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

My personal view is that I agree with much of what the Member has said in his response. It goes to the heart of the fragility of the existing constitutional settlement, I think, when you can see the reliance it has on political parties in Westminster, and the UK Government currently, abiding by unwritten conventions. And in fact, the failure to do so—so frequently in the course of the last few weeks—has exposed significant weaknesses in our constitutional arrangements. It ought not to be the case that the Supreme Court should have to intervene on such a basic matter of constitutional propriety. It should never be the case that any Government should call the rule of law into question, like Boris Johnson has done in relation to the attempted prorogation of Parliament. It really lowers our standing, actually not just within the UK, but internationally, to see that sort of proceeding arrive at the Supreme Court. I absolutely endorse the principles that his question implies, that the constitution of the United Kingdom should be based on two principles—one of equality between the nations of the UK, and the principle of subsidiarity. It it those two principles, by the way, that have secured support within the European Union for membership broadly across the continent, and we would do well to be inspired by those principles here in the UK as well.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

4. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the impact of a no-deal Brexit on third sector organisations in Wales? OAQ54420

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We are working closely with the third sector. We commissioned the Wales Council for Voluntary Action to undertake research into the impact of Brexit on the sector, and this has culminated in the 'Empowering Communities in the Context of Brexit' report, which was published by the WCVA on 20 September.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you. I'm sure, Minister, that like me you've seen the letter that was sent by numerous third sector organisations, including very many from Wales, to the Prime Minister, warning of the grave concerns about a 'no deal' Brexit. The letter says a 'no deal' Brexit would be detrimental to civil society and the communities that we work with. The uncertainty, the predicted economic shock, the prospect of legal uncertainty, as well as the regression in rights and standards, present a profound risk to the values civil society stands for. Do you recognise the description in that letter? Do you recognise there is a particular risk to our most deprived communities arising from a 'no deal' Brexit? And what more can you do as a Welsh Government to ensure that, should the Tory Government proceed on this reckless course of action, we are as well prepared as we possibly can be?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that important supplementary question. When you have organisations like Tenovus, Children in Wales, the Migrants' Rights Network, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions—when you've got bodies like that raising the alarm, which is what they do in that letter, I think it's incumbent on us all to sit up and listen to that. I was in an event organised by Charles Whitmore, who I think was party to the letter, a few months ago, in Belfast, actually. I think the impact of Brexit on civic society, and the role of the third sector, hasn't sufficiently been on the agenda across the UK. We have done what we can here to support third sector organisations, partly through the European transition fund. But I think the reason the letter is so powerful is because these are organisations working on the front line in people's lives, often working with vulnerable people—and we are absolutely concerned about the cumulative effect of a number of detrimental impacts that would flow and impact on them in the context of Brexit. One of the things we are trying to do in relation to securing the resilience of the third sector in the event of leaving the European Union is to include them very directly in the work of designing the replacement for structural funds here. There's a steering group, which is convened by Huw Irranca-Davies, and they have a central role in that. That principle of partnership between the third sector and other sectors, which has underpinned the work we've done during our membership of the European Union, needs to survive as and when we leave.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

5. What discussions has the Counsel General had with opposition parties in relation to the Welsh Government’s position on Brexit? OAQ54434

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has been working tirelessly on a cross-party basis since 2016 to protect Wales’s interests. As a result, the National Assembly has passed motions that rule out a 'no deal' exit, support the UK remaining in the EU, and support a second referendum to achieve that aim.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Counsel General, for that reply. Does he not recognise the potential dangers of using Wales as a political pawn in the games that he's playing with Plaid Cymru? There's a great deal of suspicion about the way in which the Welsh Labour Party is cosying up to Plaid Cymru in advance of the 2021 election, which I think they're anticipating losing and, therefore, are now looking for support from Plaid Cymru. He recently said that

'the UK is a voluntary association of nations'

and that if Brexit goes ahead,

'any sensible government would have to reassess Wales's place in a changed UK',

clearly doffing his cap in the direction of independence. The First Minister has recently said that Wales's support for the union's not unconditional, and, at the Welsh Labour conference this year, there was a fringe meeting called 'Labour for independence' and the former First Minister graced it with his presence and spoke at it. And Vaughan Roderick from the BBC said recently that fringe meeting would never have been allowed a few years ago, and Welsh Labour would not have accepted the invitation to a YesCymru meeting a couple of years ago. Will he commit Labour unambiguously to continuing within the United Kingdom and breaking off this dalliance with Plaid Cymru, which is giving an unnecessary credence to the possibility of independence?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I'm not sure where this fits in to discussions with the opposition parties. These are debates that all mature parties would expect to have in a devolved context. I've been absolutely categorical: I believe, the Welsh Government believes, that the best future for Wales is as part of a UK that is flourishing and reformed. The pressures that have come from Brexit have exposed fault lines in the UK constitution that my reply to Hefin David's question earlier attempted to draw out. I would just say to him that the biggest threat to the union is the kind of 'no deal' Brexit that he himself is an advocate of. He and others are taking a wrecking ball to the constitution, and those of us who have a much greater commitment to the future of Wales are seeking to do what we can to strengthen the constitution to deal with some of those consequences.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

6. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the Welsh Government’s Brexit preparation plans for Pembrokeshire? OAQ54405

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has been working to plan and prepare for the harmful impacts and implications of Brexit, and in particular a 'no deal' Brexit, on the economy, public services and communities of Wales, including working with the local resilience forum to assess the implications of delays at ports in Pembrokeshire.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, Minister, as you will be aware, there are two ports in my constituency—Fishguard and Milford Haven—and both of them are strategically important for the local economy, and, indeed, for the national economy. A report by the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee in the Assembly into the effects of Brexit on Welsh ports showed that Wales hasn’t taken advantage of the funds available in the past that were linked to the trans-European transport network. Indeed, Ian Davies from Stena told the committee that little in terms of funds had been accessed, and nothing of great significance over the past 15 years. Now, given that connectivity with Welsh ports is crucially important for their success, can you give us the latest updates as to what the Welsh Government is doing to meet recommendation 12 made by that committee that made it clear that the Welsh Government should make clear commitments on developing infrastructure for the future, including highways?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We, of course, are collaborating with the ports in Pembrokeshire in the specific context of Brexit to ensure that we keep an overview on the impact on the ports of Brexit. We’ve been collaborating, as I mentioned previously, with the local resilience forum that has been discussing plans for waiting areas if alternative arrangements were required in the future for those ports. But, as regards the Member’s specific question about that specific recommendation, I will ensure that I write to him with an answer.FootnoteLink

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

7. What assessment has the Counsel General made of local authority planning and preparations for a potential no-deal Brexit? OAQ54417

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I refer you to the oral statement given by the Minister for Housing and Local Government yesterday on preparing our public services in Wales for a 'no deal' Brexit. Other Ministers and I also gave oral statements on 'no deal' preparedness.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Back in February, the Wales Audit Office reported that specific and detailed political scrutiny of Brexit preparedness has generally been limited within local authorities in Wales. Unfortunately, in many councils, that still holds true today, with elected members having had very little in terms of Brexit discussions. Is this not something that worries you, particularly as we could be facing a 'no deal' scenario in the not too distant future, as I'm sure you're aware? If so, what guidance is the Welsh Government giving to local authorities to ensure that elected members are having these discussions on the potential local implications within their respective areas and responding accordingly?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I thank the Member for that important question. I was with the Minister for Housing and Local Government this morning at the Partnership Council for Wales, at which the Welsh Local Government Association and several individual councils were represented. He refers to the report in February from the auditor general, which related to a period of research, which somewhat, necessarily, predated that report.

I think it is fair to say that the quality of scrutiny amongst local councils generally in relation to matters related to Brexit has improved markedly over that period, and he will, perhaps, have seen the follow-up report that the auditor general published on Friday of last week, which commended public services in Wales, local government, Welsh Government and others for continuing to step up the preparation work. And I think it referred specifically to matters relating to the scrutiny of Brexit appearing more frequently in the intervening period on the agendas of cabinet and other scrutiny committees in local councils.

He'll also perhaps recall that, in March, Grant Thornton commissioned a diagnostic review in relation to preparedness and that an update of that review has been requested. And some of the work that we have funded in relation to local government has had a specific focus on scrutiny for the reason that his question implied, because it's an important aspect of democratic accountability in relation to this vital issue.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

8. What discussion has the Counsel General held with the UK Government regarding safeguarding Wales's interests in the Brexit process after 31 October 2019? OAQ54443

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

While we believe Wales’s interests are best protected by remaining in the EU, I continue to highlight the vital importance of the full involvement of the Welsh Government in the development of UK negotiating positions on withdrawal issues and any future relationship with the EU.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

You’ll be aware, of course, of the warnings—and we heard some from the agricultural sector over the summer—of the possibility of civil unrest as a result of the circumstances arising from a ‘no deal’ Brexit. So, can I ask you what preparations and discussions you’ve had with the relevant authorities in light of those possibilities, because the closer we come to a ‘no deal’ Brexit, then the closer, I would think, we come to that possibility?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

That is a very important question. Of course, we must ensure that arrangements are in place to deal with such occurrences, wherever they occur and in whichever context. But I acknowledge the reference that the Member makes.

As regards specific examples, we have no information on that at present, but the civil contingencies process collaborating across the whole of the United Kingdom is in place, and that is one of the examples where the networking is at its strongest across the UK. And he may have seen that we referred to those recently on the general preparedness, which we published in that paper. But I assure the Member that this is always one of the priorities, to ensure that joint arrangements with local resilience forums and the other services are in place to ensure that we monitor this and are ready to respond as the need arises.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

9. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government about holding a second referendum on Brexit? OAQ54422

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

In 'A brighter future for Wales', we set out in detail the evidence that shows that Wales’s best interests are protected by remaining in the European Union. I continue to take every opportunity to call on the UK Government to legislate for a second referendum to achieve that aim.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Counsel General, in the light of what we now know about everything that has happened on Brexit, what the implications would be for the Welsh economy, do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn's position that it is absolutely right that that choice should now be given back to the people to take a decision in the form of a second referendum?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Absolutely. We've been very clear, haven't we, as a party that our position is this matter should be put back to the people. When we speak to Welsh voters here in Wales, we will be advocating that they vote to remain. We advocated that position in 2016. We didn't manage to persuade people then, but I think it is clear in what's happened in the three years since then and the cavalier way in which those people who voted for leave have broken the promises made to the people of Wales in the referendum, that we will continue to advocate the position for 'remain'. We think, as I know that he also feels passionately, that Wales's interests are best served as part of the European Union.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

10. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the outcome of the Supreme Court prorogation case following the judgment passed on 24 September 2019? OAQ54444

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I welcome the unanimous, clear and unambiguous judgment of the Supreme Court. It's only right that Parliament is sitting at such a crucial time for Wales and the United Kingdom and its constitution.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Thank you, Minister. Following the Supreme Court's ruling, the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, has apologised to Her Majesty the Queen, but has still not apologised to Parliament or the people of Wales or the United Kingdom. Minister, may I applaud the decisive action of the Welsh Government to act as an intervener in this case, and can the Minister outline the consequences and implications that the judgment will have on the National Assembly for Wales and how it operates within the legal framework of the United Kingdom?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I thank the Member for highlighting that particular aspect, because the judgment of the Supreme Court expressly refers to the work of the National Assembly in the reasoning that Lady Hale gave in what is an important judgment. It amazes me that some Members in this Chamber still seem to think that intervening in the Supreme Court proceedings was not an appropriate action. The rationale for doing so, I would remind Members, is because we in this Chamber and in committees of this Assembly have spent time passing motions, debating, passing secondary legislation that are predicated on the ability of Parliament to legislate in relation to Brexit, and the Prime Minister's attempt to suspend Parliament had the effect of preventing it from sitting to complete its work. So, we had a very direct interest in the outcome of that judgment, and so I absolutely welcome the clarity of an unanimous 11-justice decision and the beneficial impact that has on our work here in the Assembly. She will know, I know, that the prorogation of Parliament, had it actually taken effect, would have had the effect of causing primary legislation that we required to be passed to protect the interests of Wales to fall. We know now as a consequence of that judgment that not only was the action unlawful but that, in effect, Parliament was never, in fact, prorogued.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

11. What discussions has the Counsel General held with the UK Government on emerging proposals for an alternative to the backstop arrangements relating to the UK's exit from the EU? OAQ54440

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Despite a meeting of the JMC(EN) on 12 September and a meeting with James Duddridge MP on 23 September, we've not received any details of the proposals, including the non-papers that have been discussed with the EU. I continue to call for these to be shared with Welsh Ministers, but I plan to have a conversation later today with the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, I hope, on this topic.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank the Minister for that response. Indeed, James Duddridge appeared in front of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee only last week, and he was very courteous and tried to give as much information as he could, but it was clear from his responses that the level of engagement on these critical issues with the Welsh Government—. It was simply not a matter that he deemed important enough to actually pick up the phone, come to a meeting or discuss this with the Welsh Government, and yet, at that time, one of the options that was being mooted, that was being rumoured, was indeed the reintroduction of some sort of customs barrier, some sort of line down the middle of the North sea that would affect not only Liverpool, but places like Milford Haven, and so on. Now we hear that what's on the table is the idea of possible customs posts that are not right on the border but within a few kilometres of the border in Northern Ireland, which goes to the heart, I have to say, of the Belfast agreement and the peace process. So, does it disturb him and the Welsh Government that the UK Government does not take it upon itself to discuss these matters in detail with its devolved partners within the United Kingdom, because the implications are not only for the UK Government; the implications, whether it's on the peace dividend that we currently enjoy, or whether it's on trade and tariff borders and where those impact particularly on ports, will impact all of the devolved nations and regions, not just England?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Member makes a very, very important point in his supplementary question. The JMC(EN) exists to provide the UK Government and the devolved Governments an opportunity to come together to seek to agree some aspects of the oversight of these negotiations. It seems to us, fundamental to that, that that should involve, at the very least, a process of sharing sufficient information for that process to be meaningful rather than apparent. And I think the failure to agree to share those non-papers is very, very disappointing in the context of those terms of reference. I can assure the Member that that is a point I made in exactly those terms directly to James Duddridge at the meeting I had with him, and I've subsequently made that point to the Secretary of State himself as well.

In relation to the speculation, I think, that we've seen so far in relation to the possible proposal with regard to Northern Ireland, the Government's position is very clear: if we are going to leave, it is better for us to leave with a deal. So, we wish the UK Government success in seeking to negotiate a deal because that is better than a 'no deal' situation, but what I would say is that it feels to me very late in the day to be making an initial proposal of this sort. I would also say that it's not likely to be productive to do that in the context of setting an ultimatum on a matter that is so important. And so, we would have made those observations had we had an opportunity to engage, as the Joint Ministerial Committee structures suggest we should have.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

12. What preparations has the Welsh Government made for the UK’s exit from the EU? OAQ54409

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has worked continuously since 2016 to plan and prepare for Brexit, and to achieve the best possible outcome for Wales. We've particularly focused on preparations for 'no deal', and we published our action plan on 16 September.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Of course, the UK Government's requirement to seek an alternative deal is only because Labour voted down the previous deal three times in the House of Commons. How do you respond to the statements made earlier this month by the Irish sea south trade director for Stena Line, the port authority at Holyhead, a Mr Davies, who, when asked if there'll be disruption, said, 'Yes, I think there will be for the first day or two just because of uncertainty, but this will be very short term. The traffic flow through Holyhead as it stands, and with the plans in place, I don't foresee any problems. There is the Welsh Government emergency plan on the A55—I don't see it being used myself'?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that point. I don't think I heard a question, but—

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

'How do you respond to the statement by—?'

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Oh, forgive me. Yes. Well, just to make the obvious point, the initial response is that many people voted against the deal, including Boris Johnson and half the parliamentary Conservative Party, so I think the prospect that we had a deal in the bag that the Labour Party is responsible for scuppering I think is particularly risible. The question needs to be asked what the proposed renegotiation is of the deal that the Prime Minister proposes, because he will find that he has a hardcore rump of European Research Group members who are going to be hard to placate in any version of this agreement.

But I think, on the point about the port of Holyhead, he will know from the statement that the Minister for transport made in the Chamber yesterday that we've been working with the port to ensure that we have plans in place in order to manage disruption as best we can in the event that there are tailbacks. He will also know that we are looking at those in the context of information that has been provided more recently from the UK Government to ascertain that we have arrangements in place. But I would just say to the Member, obviously, we very much hope that the arrangements are not required and that, if they are required, they work effectively, but I think the broader point, which his question misses, is that a huge amount of resource, energy and financial resource is being committed across this Government and other Governments across the UK to prepare for a 'no deal' Brexit, which is perfectly within the gift of his own Prime Minister to rule out.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Minister for answering all of the questions this afternoon.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item would have been the topical questions, but no topical questions were received today.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, the next item is the 90-second statements, and the first statement is from Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you, Llywydd. October is Black History Month. It is a time to celebrate the achievements of black people and people of colour for our contribution to our country.

We recognise remarkable people from our past and our present who have made a real difference, sometimes without the recognition that they deserve. In Cardiff South and Penarth, we are lucky to have a number of role models to recognise and celebrate. Two such people are from Butetown: Billy Boston and Betty Campbell. Billy Boston is the son of a west African father and an Irish mother. He was overlooked by the union game. I have no doubt that his colour explains why. He is, however, recognised as one of the greatest ever British rugby league players. There's a statue of him on Wembley Way and in Wigan where he played most of his rugby. Sadly, his home city has not yet provided him the same recognition.

Betty Campbell was the first black headteacher in Wales. I knew her; I didn't always agree with her. But despite our well-advertised differences, her historic achievements are undeniable. Following a public vote on hidden heroines, Betty will be the first woman to be honoured with a statue in the capital city. There are many more figures to learn about and celebrate from across our country. I hope that Members across the Chamber take the opportunity to promote Black History Month, to remember our difficulties and our struggles, because this is not just black history, it is an essential part of the history of Wales and the wider world.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

This week has seen the forty-fifth anniversary of the opening of Swansea Sound, Swansea's independent local radio station. I would, first of all, like to congratulate them on their forty-fifth anniversary. For those people living in the area, it's well-known just how important that institution is for our part of south-west Wales, which is Neath Port Talbot, Swansea and Carmarthenshire.

It began broadcasting on 30 September 1974, as the first commercial radio station in Wales, the seventh in the United Kingdom, but the first to broadcast in both English and Welsh. In 1995, the station was split into two separate services because of battles over frequencies, and the two stations are Swansea Sound, which continued as it was previously, and The Wave, aiming at a younger listenership, which probably left me out.

Swansea Sound has had a large number of presenters over the last 45 years, many of whom have gone on to national broadcasting, both in Wales and in London. It has also had some very long-serving broadcasters, such as Kevin Johns and Steve Dewitt, both of whom are incredibly well-known in the Swansea area.

It's been involved in organising events and campaigns, such as, every Christmas it raises money for charity and it organised an event at the Liberty Stadium for veterans, which was attended by several other Assembly Members from Swansea. The highlight of the Swansea Sound week for politicians is the Sunday morning phone-in with Kevin Johns. I don't think there's any local Member representing that part of south-west Wales who hasn't been on Swansea Sound, and one or two from outside the area. With the opportunity to answer questions from the public as they phone in, it's been a huge success, and I'm looking forward to the next 45 years, but I think somebody else might be making this speech. [Laughter.]

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

This Thursday, on 3 October, we will celebrate the one-hundred-and-sixtieth anniversary of the Pryce-Jones mail order store and the one-hundred-and-fortieth anniversary of the opening of the Pryce-Jones Royal Welsh Warehouse. A celebration organised by the heritage hub for mid Wales at the grade II listed Pryce-Jones Royal Welsh Warehouse in Newtown will mark the life of Sir Pryce Pryce-Jones, who was the pioneer of mail order home shopping.

Pryce-Jones had a draper's shop in Newtown and came up with the idea of dispatching goods to his customers by post using the railway. His drapery business was so popular, he dreamt up the mail order catalogue so that those who couldn't travel to his Newtown shop could buy his goods. I'm told that Queen Victoria and Florence Nightingale were amongst the patrons, and his Welsh flannel was sold to customers around the world.

He is also credited with the invention of the sleeping bag and was the MP for Montgomeryshire on two occasions. Tomorrow we will see two plaques unveiled by the entrepreneur's great-great-grandson, David Pryce-Jones, and the High Sheriff of Powys, David Lloyd Peate, to mark the pioneer's contribution to the heritage of Montgomeryshire and the world birthplace of mail order.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Today, over 200 people took part in the annual Cycle on the Senedd, and they were joined by cross-party Assembly Members and, indeed, a couple of Ministers too. They did so because they believe that the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013, that groundbreaking law passed by this Senedd, can help solve many of the most pressing problems facing Wales. But they also did so because they want to see the ambition of that groundbreaking legislation to make walking and cycling the most natural ways to travel in Wales a reality. And yet, the sad truth is that since we passed that Act, the number of people walking and cycling in Wales has actually declined. They believe that when the active travel Act is really properly funded and backed by a comprehensive evidence-based strategy, we'll see that breakthrough that we need. And these outcomes are vitally important.

More people getting about on foot or bike instead of in cars would help us to achieve all seven of our national goals set out in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. It's all about displacing car journeys with walking and cycling, cutting carbon emissions, reducing air pollution, improving health, and promoting equality by providing a much more affordable form of transport. And it helps our economy by reducing congestion and it aids community cohesion by increasing social interaction.

It was inspiring today to see people from all over Wales take part in the ride from the wonderful Pedal Power centre in Pontcanna. I'm delighted that so many Assembly Members of all parties joined us on the steps of the Senedd today, and some on the cycle across Cardiff too, to demonstrate their support for more and better active travel.

This is a real demonstration of their faith that this institution will deliver on the promises made when passing this world-leading piece of legislation, and we look forward to next year's event being even bigger and better and hearing of the progress made on making Wales the best country in which to cycle and to walk too.

Motion to Elect Members to the Committee on Assembly Reform

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Now, a motion to elect Members to the Committee on Assembly Electoral Reform. I call for a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Formally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Standards of Conduct Committee Report: Report 02-19

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is the Standards of Conduct Committee report, report 02-19. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Llywydd. As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion.

The committee considered the report from the National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards in relation to a complaint made against Leanne Wood AM regarding the use of unparliamentary language. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that is appropriate to this case.

The facts related to the complaint and the committee's reasons for its recommendation are set out in full in the committee's report. The motion tabled invites the Assembly to endorse the committee's recommendations.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

I may have a reputation for being robust in my response to trolls and bullies online, but I don't normally engage in language that some may consider to be unparliamentary. This is the first time that I've called someone 'an arsehole' on social media, and whilst I can't promise that I won't swear on social media ever again, I can understand why, on receiving a complaint, the standards commissioner felt unable to be seen to be condoning the use by an Assembly Member of what he considers to be an offensive word.

However, this case raises a number of questions. The case that follows this one is arguably similar if you just take this question as an Assembly Member's use of unparliamentary language on social media. But because the Member in that case has chosen to issue an apology to the Llywydd, there is no censure for him. I, too, was offered a chance to apologise in order to avoid a censure, and the committee, in fairness, had a lot of sympathy with my position on this when I addressed them. But it would not be honest or right for me to issue an apology, because this is much more than a case of just swearing on Twitter. I, along with countless other women who are active in politics, regularly receive trolling, abusive tweets and general nastiness on social media on a daily basis. Sometimes, it's co-ordinated; undoubtedly, it's rooted in misogyny.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

The context, therefore, where a well-known online misogynist bully, who describes himself as a blogger, issued a snide passive-aggressive tweet, a thinly veiled attack on my colleague Delyth Jewell before she'd even started in her role and before she was in a position to properly defend herself, after I had seen this person issue attack after attack on mostly women, but others, including disabled people, gay people, trans people and so on, usually from a right or far-right perspective, calling people names like feminazi, socialist handmaids, woke, Nietzscheists, virtue-signalling snowflakes—terms that those who pay attention to such matters will know are straight out of the far-right play book.

These types of attacks are personal, but they are also political, and the timing, after our group had experienced such a horrific loss just that week, well, enough was enough. I decided that the best way to stand up to that bully was to use language that he was sure to understand. It's not language that I would normally use, but sometimes, when standing up to bullies, you have to deploy whatever strategies you deem necessary.

There is something very wrong with an organisation's complaints procedures when the people standing up to a bully, and so often we are women, people of colour or LGBT people calling them out, and then we are the people who get the complaints, and we are the people who get censured.

Take the case of Naga Munchetty. Just last week, Naga was censured by the BBC for questioning Donald Trump's racism. People have to be able to call out and robustly challenge this growing scourge that comes with increased support for far-right parties. Sometimes, panels and procedures don't get it right, and as at the BBC, there are mechanisms in place to reverse poor or wrong decisions, and we have an opportunity to do something similar here. The mechanism exists here through Members' votes. Will we do the same?

I feel I have to make Members aware that this is the third complaint made to the standards commissioner that I'm aware of about me in the last year. Prior to this, I'm only aware of one complaint ever since my election to this place in 2003. Thankfully, the commissioner has deemed that the other two complaints do not warrant any further action.

For one of those complaints, there were 37 separate complainants, all about the same thing, coincidentally after a far-right politician had tweeted the complaints procedure information and encouraged his followers to complain. Well, that little ruse seems to have been seen through and dismissed as vexatious, and I am grateful to the standards commissioner for that. It is dangerous to have far-right politicians in the mainstream almost directing their bands of followers to bully, troll and intimidate people online and to make official complaints, yet that seems to be what's happening.

I don't need to outline the impact of online bullying and trolling, or how it is used to silence women and minorities, because the support statements in the report from Women's Aid and GlitchUK, the charity that's been set up to tackle online abuse, outline all that very well, and I'm grateful to those organisations and everyone else who has written in support on this.

A lot has been said about Members being almost obliged to support the committee's recommendations for a censure, that somehow the committee, the commissioner or the process will be undermined were Members to disagree with the censure recommendation. What is the point of AMs having a vote on this if all we can do is rubber-stamp what a committee has already decided?

I am grateful to the Plaid Cymru group for backing me and the principle that we have to differentiate between those who bully and those who stand up to bullies. I know that there's solidarity from other benches in this Chamber for me as well and I'm very grateful for that. I hope this afternoon that Members will feel able to vote in line with what they honestly believe to be right on this question. Diolch yn fawr.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have very many speakers who've asked to contribute to this 15-minute debate. I have enough speakers to last an hour. Most of you can expect not to be called in this debate, which was scheduled for only 15 minutes. Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I rise as a member of the standards committee and speak to the report, obviously, that's laid before the Assembly this afternoon. It is, without question, unparliamentary language that the report refers to. I have a huge amount of sympathy for the situation that Leanne presented to the committee—that she and other Members across all parties face here. Only this week, for example, in the renaming of this institution, I've been told to go back to England, the place where I'll feel more at home than Wales, because I'm not Welsh because I don't speak Welsh. There's a mute button on my social media. I can mute people. I do not use unparliamentary language on social media. That's not to say it might not happen in the future, because that spark might go on and, one night, one day, something might be said that will really enrage me.

But it is a fact that this report, and I think the Member agrees with this fact—that none of the facts are contested in the report, and the report is accurate. Each Member in this process is afforded that opportunity. It is a fact that it is a cross-party committee that has brought this report to the Chamber, and Plaid Cymru's Member on that committee supported wholeheartedly the report. So, it is a little surprising to see that, as a group, now, you are dissenting from the Member's position, which she took in that committee meeting. That is a statement of fact. [Interruption.] Well, if I could just finish, I'd be grateful, as I didn't interrupt when you were standing.

I think the points you made on the wider issues of trolling, and also the abuse that politicians and members of society across the board face, is something that is a phenomenon in the modern age. Twenty or 25 years ago, there wasn't social media, there wasn't the intrusion into our homes, where you can switch your phone on and get that abuse in your home. No-one should have to put up with that. But it is a fact that this institution set up a standards procedure that is clearly defined and that has a commissioner at its heart, who presents a report. That report then comes to the committee with the outcome of the standards commissioner's investigation. That's what we're discussing here this afternoon. I appreciate the Member used the term that is in question here—the word—and I am trying to avoid using it because I do not believe that it is right to use it in this Chamber. Frankly, if it isn't right to be used in this Chamber, then clearly it's not right to be used on a platform when engaging with members of the public.

It is a fact that the complainant in this particular case is not the blogger that you referred to—I don't know whether there is an association with the blogger—but a third party. The Member cited the blogger in this particular instance, whom the word was used against, but the complainant was a third party—it was not that individual. I don't know who the complainant was because we weren't privy to the name; it was not released.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Don't you think they've got mates?

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I'm just making the point that it was a third party. [Interruption.] Well, I don't know whether the person was a mate or not, but it could have been someone not associated at all. But that's an important consideration that this Chamber needs to reflect on.

There are three things that need to be reflected on with this report that's before us today. One: is the report contested for its accuracy? No, it's not. Two: is that word, associated with this report, suitable to be used in this context, in the Chamber or on a public platform that is Twitter? I would suggest not. The third and final outcome is: do we need to do more about trolling and social media activity in general? Of course we do. But we shouldn't mix the two together with the report that is before the Senedd this afternoon, and the wider issues that this report and publicity around issues that are raised in this report, which are raised on a time-by-time basis and that come up virtually every day of the week now.

I do hope that the Senedd will have the confidence to endorse this report, which has gone through full scrutiny, cross-party support and the rigour of the standards commissioner's office and investigation—which this Assembly itself, and the Members within this Chamber, elected to establish—and the rules that govern his investigations.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

The refusal of any Assembly Member to accept the findings of the standards committee is completely reprehensible, because it means that the code of conduct becomes obsolete. We would, in fact, practice being a ruleless Assembly. We must remember that the whole of the Assembly voted to introduce this code of conduct. I also find the comments on social media with regard to the standards commissioner totally unacceptable. Sir Roderick simply gathers evidence and decides whether he believes the behaviour of a Member breaks the rules contained in the code of conduct guide. It is the standards committee—

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Will the Member take an intervention?

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

—that decides whether to agree with this finding. Yes, of course.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

The only question I have is, procedurally, the committee brings a report to this Assembly in the same way as any other committee would do, so that the Assembly as a whole can come to a decision. Surely you have to recognise that we're all within our right to vote whichever way we wish to vote on this.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Well, of course. There was an opportunity for the Assembly Member to talk to the committee and to explain her views, and we took those views into account before we made a decision. But it's the standards committee that decides whether to agree with his findings and, if so, set the level of sanctions that it feels are appropriate. It is also important to note that the Member agreed with the factual content of Sir Roderick's report. By refusing to accept these sanctions, a Member is ignoring the decision of a cross-party committee—in this case, a committee that included a Plaid Cymru Member who agreed to the sanctions being imposed. Whilst I am willing to accept that there was a level of provocation from the person who was subject of the comments, and there is no doubt that there was extreme provocation from that person, provocation cannot be a defence for breaking the Assembly's code of conduct, particularly on social media. The committee was satisfied that the language used was inappropriate conduct for an Assembly Member, and it took into account the provocation aspect of the case in setting the level of sanction imposed. Refusal to accept such sanctions leads to anarchy in the Assembly procedural rules. I urge the Assembly to endorse the report.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

There is an attempt to make this debate about one word used by Leanne Wood. It is, after all, the simplest thing to do, but then it is simpler to arrest someone who steals a loaf of bread than ask why they are hungry. It is simpler to jail a woman moved to violence than address decades of coercive control. It is simpler to censure a woman of colour than listen to her call out everyday racism on tv. And that is what happens every day, because it is simpler not to rock the boat, not to lift the lid, to say that the system must be respected. It would be simpler to just say that Leanne should not have used that word, give her a slap on the wrist and then move on. That's what most people want to happen. It would be simple and wrong. When you are dealing with people, prejudice and politics, systems don't always fit. You need to inject a bit of judgment and humanity. You also need to be able to take the long view. So, it isn't Leanne's choice of words that I want to focus on today, it's the double standards at play, the context of the situation and the words, the attitudes and the actions that prompted her anger.

'"Women's rights and international development". God help @Plaid_Cymru".

These are the words that really give context to today's debate. This is the ancient, entitled, misogynistic attitude that runs like a torrent through the heart of this discussion, and through the heart of Welsh politics. The world view has not shifted as much as we would like to pretend in this place. It has not shifted in this place as much as we often pretend. As recently as last year, an Assembly Member, not a blogger or a commentator, but an elected Member, produced a sexist, deeply insulting video about a woman he works with. A councillor in my own borough, who actually chaired the safer communities committee at the time, repeatedly referred to refugees as 'rapefugees' on Facebook; 5,000 refugees died in the Mediterranean the same year he made those remarks, hundreds of women and children fleeing persecution. The friends and colleagues of the Prime Minister say he has a woman problem. He refers to Muslim women as 'letterboxes', an intervention that preceded a 375 per cent rise in Islamophobic incidents. The Prime Minister used the death of Jo Cox to make a flippant point about Brexit, an outburst that moved MPs to tears, not because they are women or weak, but because they mourn their friend and feel genuine fear for their own safety. The Prime Minister's own words are being used in death threats against women MPs.

Can I tell you the two things that connect the Prime Minister, the councillor and that Assembly Member? They are all men and none of them were censured. And are we really getting ready to censure Leanne Wood for a one-word outburst—a politician whose opinions on gender issues and immigration have earned her death threats and daily abuse that require police intervention? Really? She’s the bad guy in all this? Here’s the third difference between Leanne’s one-word offence and that of the three men I mentioned: hers was an entirely instinctive response, a human response to someone known for sexist views who is attacking a new, young, female colleague shortly after the death of a much-loved friend and colleague. It was not a planned intervention designed to provoke outrage, hatred or division.

The lesson here seems to be that as long as you invest money and focus-group your intolerant language, and choose a message carrier in trousers, then you’re free to say what you like, unchecked by the authorities. It simply does not make sense, measured against anything and everything we claim to hold dear in this Assembly. If the result of the policy is nonsensical, then surely we should not shrug and blame the process—we should change the policy and the process to match the reality being faced by too many women. And can I say to Andrew R.T. Davies: most of the abuse I get online is not even repeatable here or—[Interruption.] No, I haven’t got time. Here or any anywhere else.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I've asked twice for an intervention.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

And we should not ignore the backdrop to this inconsistency, and that is the tone set by journalists and commentators of a certain age, gender and class. They are wonderfully quick to claim that equality’s a done deal, despite all evidence to the contrary. There is a belief amongst this class that feminism in the UK is anachronistic, and as for women’s rights, well, ‘God help us all’, to misquote a certain blogger.

Next week we welcome Julia Gillard to Wales, the former Australian Prime Minister. Most of the people in this Chamber won’t need reminding about her famous speech on misogyny, sexism and double standards in 2012, a speech that helped rewrite the dictionary definition of misogyny to include ‘entrenched prejudice against women’. Men and women from this Assembly will be queuing to meet her when she’s here, rightly so—she’s a brilliant politician. But ask yourself before you meet here whether you’ve met the challenge she set in 2012, that there should be no place for sexism, no place for misogyny, no place for double standards.

Now, Leanne Wood is not a political ally of mine, but I have never felt closer to her than throughout this episode. Her reaction was human, instinctive and protective, and it is those three characteristics that continue to bind women from all parties together in this Chamber in the face of dehumanising threats and abuse. I know that we won’t all vote the same way today, but I cannot believe that we don’t at least feel the same way. I commend Leanne for standing her ground. This is no time to be punishing women who, when they are abused, threatened and insulted, say ‘No more’, no matter how impolitely they may say it.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I want to remind Members of the context surrounding all of this. Context is everything in a case like this. When our friend and colleague Steffan had passed away in January, nobody, including me, wanted to think about what would come next. We wanted to grieve for our friend. And I had decided that I wouldn’t say anything in public, on social media or otherwise, until after his funeral. Events meant that I had to be returned quite swiftly, but I did not want to take the oath until the funeral had passed. So, when my name was announced on Twitter, I didn’t say anything about it. I was already feeling tremendous guilt and grief. A few very vocal accounts on Twitter immediately responded to, I think, the BBC's short article, making assumptions about what a disappointment of an AM I was already going to be, and that was because the first line of my personal Twitter biography noted that I worked in women’s rights and international development. My job at the time had been to be a women’s rights campaigner for ActionAid. It was a job I was very proud of having. But that one line was enough to infuriate some people, and to assume that that was all I was going to be interested in. I didn’t feel like I could answer and speak up for myself in the circumstances. Leanne did what she did, in large part, to support me. Leanne was also grieving for her friend, and she could see how ill-judged, insensitive and cruel the timing and the tone of those messages about me were. So, I was incredibly grateful to her then, and I'm still grateful to her now, for sticking up for me when I couldn't do that for myself. So, I will be voting against this censure. I hope other Members will do the same.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Jayne Bryant, the Chair, to reply to the debate.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd first like to start by thanking all Members who've contributed to this debate today, and I'd particularly like to thank Leanne for saying her words as well. I think some of the complexities around implementing a standards regime are apparent from some of the views that we've heard today. So, I think it might be worth setting out a few facts on the system to start with. An independent standards commissioner is appointed through an open and transparent appointment process. The commissioner uses the code of conduct and supporting guidance, including the dignity and respect policy, voted on by the whole Assembly, to investigate the complaints. If he finds that a complaint has breached the code, that complaint, and the commissioner's report on why he found a breach, is brought before a cross-party committee. The committee's role is to take into account the report of the commissioner and decide if a—and, if so, what—sanction is to be given.

The committee's role is quasi-judicial. We cannot, and do not, make decisions on party political lines. We've been given the responsibility by this Assembly to uphold the highest of standards, and we're all incredibly mindful of that. I, and the committee, have a huge amount of sympathy with the Member in this instance. The trolling, bullying, misogyny, racism, homophobia and so on that happen on social media platforms are reprehensible. Politicians and other public figures are often seen as fair game. We have more to do to support Members on this. I have a great deal of respect for the Member, and there's no doubt in my mind that the Member will continue to call out misogyny, racism, homophobia, bullying and trolling, as she always does, and she always does in a robust way. This is not a problem with the complaint. The committee are united in considering the level of abuse that the Member has faced as completely unacceptable. The rules we have ensure that we maintain those high standards around language we use. The committee's decision was based on the use of a word—however minor the Member or others see it—which breaches the code of conduct and the dignity and respect policy. Just to draw attention—I think Lynne mentioned in her contribution the issue of a Member here, Gareth Bennett, who had a complaint before us. And, in that instance, we suspended the Member for a week without pay. The debate and language about politics at the moment is toxic. We have to maintain our own standards so we don't descend ourselves. These are the high standards that we have set ourselves in our rules.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting until voting time.

6. Standards of Conduct Committee Report: Report 03-19

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is a report by the Standards of Conduct Committee, and that report is report 03-19. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Llywydd. As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion. The committee considered the report from the commissioner for standards in relation to a complaint made against Hefin David AM, regarding use of unparliamentary language. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that is appropriate to this case. The facts relating to the complaint, and the committee's reasons for its recommendation, are set out in full in the committee's report. The motion tabled invites the Assembly to endorse this committee's recommendation.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I feel like I've been existing in a parallel universe for the past 15 minutes, Llywydd. What I would say—. What I'm about to say has no bearing on the previous debate, in my mind. I'm reflecting upon my experience and what I would like to say with regard to my views and this particular standards commissioner's report. It is my view—and I know, from what's just been said, that it's not the view of some people in the Chamber—that, when you are found in breach of the rules, it is right to apologise for breaching those rules. And I endorse therefore what, particularly, Andrew R.T. Davies said when he was speaking in his position as a member of the standards committee. The decision of the standards committee should be respected, and, if you don't respect it, it can have the effect, and will have the effect, of undermining the standards process in this place, and one which was set up by this Assembly in order to manage and measure standards that we would expect to meet. [Interruption.] No, I'd rather not give way, thank you; I'd rather complete what I'd like to say.

Before I get to my response, I'd like to reflect upon what it is like to be on social media as a politician. And I can only speak from the point of view of being a male on social media. I expressed a view, and what has caused the abuse I received—I expressed a view about independence for Wales. And it wasn't a particularly massively anti-view, it was a skeptical view, but a view that was open to future debate in this Chamber and other places. I received a torrent of abuse, from people of both genders, some anonymous, some not, and some of it was horrific—some of it was horrific. I received a direct message—and I gave my word to Adam Price I wouldn't name the person, but I received a direct message from a young Plaid member that drew attention to my appearance and was in the strongest possible language that you could imagine. And it was dealt with properly and appropriately by Adam Price, quickly, and I received a direct apology the next day. But it was an awful thing to receive. I've also had my mental health questioned, and my appearance questioned, on Twitter, and my friends at home have remarked upon the abuse that I've received.

It's an incredibly difficult thing to do, when you're receiving a torrent of abuse simply for expressing a view—and seeing a constituent being abused for expressing a view—not to respond. I responded in the heat of the moment. I responded in the language that you've seen. I even managed to try out my Welsh in my response. And I was then reported for doing so. What I do regret is responding in that moment. And that is why, Llywydd, I've issued that apology to you for unparliamentary language. That apology is issued only to you and only for that breach of the rules, and only because I believe it is appropriate to do so with respect to the standards committee.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The committee Chair to reply. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd just like to thank the Member for his contribution and for the words that he's said today and his apology to you, Llywydd. He's accepted the standards committee's report. So, thank you, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Historic Industrial Infrastructure

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is a debate by an individual Member under Standing Order 11.21(v), historic industrial infrastructure. I call on David Rees to move the motion.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Diolch, Llywydd. And I move the motion in my name and in the names of Leanne Wood and Vikki Howells. I apologise before I start for my voice—unfortunately, as you might have guessed, I've not been so well lately, but we'll move on.

Now, Wales is a nation with a great history. And we have many buildings from medieval times that reflect that history—whether it be the many castles that remain visible, or the many religious sites across our country. But we move on a few hundred years and we also have a vast and wondrous industrial heritage, especially from a time when Wales was a driver of major exports such as coal, copper, iron, steel. But it's not only the buildings that produced those exports—the mines and the ironworks, et cetera—that remind us of that industrial past, but also the infrastructure that was put in place to allow those products to be transported. Now, some of that infrastructure is still visible. For example, in my own constituency, we can see the huge arches of the railway viaduct and those of the aqueduct, both in Pontrhydyfen, or the seven arches of the bridge in Cymmer. I'm sure many Members this afternoon, when they speak, will highlight such structures and buildings within their own constituencies. And we all know some of them, whether the Pontcysyllte aqueduct, Big Pit, or the ironworks in Merthyr. But, as well as the visible aspects of our industrial heritage, many of which have been restored and re-established for tourism or walking and cycling, there are many aspects of our industrial heritage that are invisible—mines that have been closed, disused railway lines where the rails have been removed, canals that have become overgrown, and a vast network of tunnels, as well as other infrastructure that once carried the riches of Wales to our ports of distribution across the world.

The decline of our industrial past took its toll on these across Wales, and in particular in the south Wales Valleys. Add to that the actions taken following the Beeching report in the 1960s, which saw a reduction in the route network and restructuring of the railways across the UK—and that was not popular, remember, because many protests actually resulted in saving some of those stations and lines, but the majority were closed as planned, and Beeching's name remains associated with the mass closure of railways and the loss of many local services in that period that followed. Now, a few of these routes have since reopened. Some short sections have been preserved as heritage railways—the Gwili railway, the Brecon Mountain railway, to name a few in Wales—Colwyn railway, Llangollen. Others have been incorporated into cycling and walking networks, and the remainder have either been returned to their own natural farmland or they remain derelict.

Now, one of those lines affected by the Beeching cuts was the Swansea bay to the Rhondda line. When operational, this route ran through my constituency, from Briton Ferry, which maybe people don't realise was a huge port at one point, going through Port Talbot and Aberavon up the Afan valley, where it branched off to many other routes. Now, these routes often required numerous tunnels, allowing them to travel up the valley and between valleys. The majority are now disused and closed off, including the Gelli tunnel, the Gilfach tunnel, the Cymmer to Caerau tunnel, and one of the longest tunnels in the UK, the Rhondda tunnel, running between Blaengwynfi and Blaencwm, and on the screens you will see a rolling picture of some of the aspects of that particular tunnel. Now, that railway line allowed us to join the railway lines in the Rhondda valley. And therefore it's industrial infrastructure across Wales that we need to see it as an opportunity to be ambitious for the future. We should not lose sight of what these infrastructures actually offer us.

Now, my remaining contribution this afternoon will focus upon these hidden gems, and, in particular, the Rhondda tunnel, which can offer opportunities for local communities to benefit from their regeneration. And the Rhondda tunnel is 3,443 yards long, or just under 2 miles, 1,000 feet below the ground at its deepest, with a 58 ft ventilation shaft. And it was a massive piece of work, and actually I was dropped down into the tunnel through that ventilation shaft, and you can see the actual fantastic Victorian engineering that built that. That was built between 1885 and 1890, officially opened in 1890, and a critical component of that line, connecting mines of the Rhondda to the ports and Swansea bay. It also became a route for passengers as well, later on in life. So, we had an opportunity, as time went on, not only to have an industrial line, but also a passenger line, to allow that connection between the two communities. The railway line was actually dual line—if you know much about railways—but the tunnel itself was a single line and dual at either portal.

Now, unfortunately, in 1968 the decision was taken to close the tunnel temporarily, as there was work needed to repair it. But, in December 1970, the Department for Transport made a decision to close that tunnel permanently, citing the costs of repair as prohibitive—strange how it actually coincided with the closure of both the Blaengwynfi and Blaenrhondda stations as part of the Beeching cuts. We can only assume that it just happened to be coincidental. So, that happened, and, in 1980, as a consequence, both portals were closed and blocked off to prevent unauthorised intrusions. Because we know they have to be protected, because many children tend to walk into places like tunnels as an exciting experience and we need to ensure we protect them and safeguard them.

Now, we're almost 130 years on from when that tunnel was opened. It is the longest disused tunnel in Wales, and the Rhondda Tunnel Society—I know some of the members are in the gallery this afternoon—have established themselves and have a vision—a vision, Deputy Minister, which I share with them; a vision that will see the Rhondda tunnel preserved for our children's future, which will reconnect the Afan valley and the Rhondda Fawr for pedestrians and cyclists, and not just for people in the two valleys, but for people from elsewhere and further afield.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Will the Member give way?

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Yes.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Can I just join him in commending the work of all those people who've put the time and effort into the Rhondda tunnel and getting that reopened? We know the progress that's been made, but how much more is still to be done. But I'd also welcome, on the back of that—and I'm sure they would, the Rhondda tunnel people themselves—in the future, the reopening of what is known in engineering circles as the Maesteg tunnel—the Cymmer to Caerau tunnel. And the fascinating thing with that tunnel is that it was done in two different ways. The Caerau end was totally different to the Cymmer end. The Cymmer end was dynamite, which cost the lives of 11 men, but the Caerau end was actually done by the sort of technology that was used then in the Channel tunnel and elsewhere, by a machine that bored the hole. So, there are good, historical reasons to actually open these tunnels as well, as well as what it could do for cycling and recreation.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can I thank my colleague the Member for Ogmore for highlighting the various tunnels that exist? The Caerau to Cymmer one is one of the ones, clearly, I mentioned earlier. It is one of the tunnels in the Valleys that have been looked at very carefully. You highlighted the point that, in fact, it's not just about what we can do when we regenerate those tunnels, but it's also reminding ourselves of the history of those tunnels and the techniques and technology that were used in developing them.

Now, the ability to offer an experience that will allow people to use existing cycling and walking infrastructure—and the Member actually talked about, in his 90-second statement, cycling today—we should grab hold of that vision and opportunity. For the Afan valley, it would include encouraging cyclists to travel further down the valley—down to the fabulous 3-mile-long beach we've got, and Margam park, and if they're really adventurous, they could cycle along the Swansea bay area, all the way to Mumbles. But it provides an opportunity we need to seriously take hold of. The opportunities are endless, the possibilities are bountiful, and this project can breathe new life into a valley whose people often feel cut off and forgotten about.

I and many others envision the tunnel being the focal point of cycling events and running events, and there have been examples of these happening: Bath tunnels have been one of these cases, where we've seen them being used as a focal point for 5Ks, 10Ks, half marathons and full marathons. It's not just simply an opportunity to walk through them or cycle through them. They could be used for other events, which bring more into the community. The Richard Burton 10K, which I'll promote—it's on 3 November, by the way, if you want to try it—we get over 1,000 runners into my village on that day, and they stay. And this is an opportunity, again, to look at what it can bring into the Rhondda and Afan valleys. People stay for those visits. So, it's not simply about restoring a tunnel; it's about offering a new vision and a new experience for local people and visitors. I've seen the figures on Bath, and they are phenomenal. But for the wider community, the benefits of people taking part in these events could invigorate the local economy—activity that was severely impacted on following the closure of the mines, which, at that point, provided so much employment to those living in those communities.

There are always challenges to building a vision around our industrial heritage, but in this case, one of the biggest challenges is as a result of the ownership of this and other tunnels. This has currently halted any further development of the Rhondda tunnel. I've written to the Minister as well as raising the matter of ownership here in the Chamber on numerous occasions, and we're no closer to resolving the matter today than we were three years ago. I am grateful for the funding from Welsh Government, and it's already made an important impact on that project. However, without ownership of the tunnel being transferred from the Department for Transport to Wales, this may have all been in vain. Further funding from other sources—and I'm not asking for Welsh Government funding—to complete the work cannot be sought until the ownership has been addressed.

I understand that the Welsh Government is concerned about the liabilities that will be placed at their door. However, you've got to remember that, at the moment, this tunnel is closed off. There are no liabilities, hardly, if a mountain falls in on it with nobody inside it. So, there's not much really to worry about at this point in time. Now, in a letter to myself and my colleague Stephen Kinnock MP, Baroness Vere of Norbiton, who is a transport Minister in London for roads and security, states that the Under-Secretary of State for transport in 2017 wrote to the Welsh Government, stating that the Secretary of State would be willing to transfer the tunnel to Welsh Government ownership and pay the sum of £60,000 to reflect savings for future survey costs—an offer that, I am told, is still open to the Welsh Government. So, the options to explore funding to reopen the tunnel may be explored and we need to very seriously look at this.

Let us have the longest cycle tunnel in Europe—the second longest in the world—open to cyclists and pedestrians, not only for active travel and not only for tourism, but to revitalise our valleys and make Cardiff easily accessible to people in the Afan valley, because at the moment, they have to go to Maesteg and catch the Maesteg train. Wouldn't it be nice if they could cycle through the tunnel and catch a train in Treherbert? Let's be forward thinking and share the vision that I and the Rhondda Tunnel Society have, and many others. Let's have ambition. Deputy Minister, today's debate is an opportunity for you to share a vision with us, a vision to revitalise communities across Wales, to share in the desire of my community, the Afan valley, to see the tunnel open for tourism, economic development and employment. Let's be forward thinking. Let's take a little risk. Let us be ambitious. Let's talk about a gem in the Afan valley for future generations to enjoy and appreciate the history of our industrial past.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

North Wales is blessed with a rich and diverse network of historic industrial infrastructure. The too-often-forgotten heroes in local groups striving to maximise the economic and social regeneration this represents deserve recognition and support. They battle daily with the practical and financial challenges of bringing such infrastructure back into community use. Instead of Welsh Government ownership, they seek real partnership with Governments in exploring and delivering the practical opportunities for reopening such infrastructure.

The Pontcysyllte aqueduct is the longest aqueduct in Great Britain and the highest canal aqueduct in the world. After it was awarded world heritage status in 2009, the Welsh Government then said it was creating a working group to establish north-east Wales as a joined-up visitor destination around the aqueduct, with the third sector represented by Glandŵr Cymru, the Canal and River Trust. We're still waiting a decade later, and other third sector heritage groups tell me that they've not been engaged.

Speaking here last year, I referred to the Channel 4 screening of the final episode of the Great Rail Restorations series, promoting the wonderful railway setting between Llangollen and Carrog, but now going to Corwen as well, and the efforts of all those on the voluntary trust there involved. As I then said, we still need a joined-up tourism offer, with through ticketing enabling regional visitors to extend their stays and have the fantastic time we know they can have.

Llangollen Railway have repeatedly said they'd like to embark on joint ticketing with the bus companies and other railways in their area. Their through ticketing proposals also relate to wider destination management and to destination offers that develop visitor experience by partnering with other venues and industrial heritage attractions in the region. Llangollen Railway are one of the biggest employers in the area and the only standard gauge heritage railway in north Wales. They're extending the line to Corwen and building a new station there as their western terminus, which will help both open up Corwen town to many more visitors and help local people travel between Llangollen and Corwen. This project has been entirely volunteer led with professional support as and when required.

The Glyn valley tramway was a narrow gauge railway connecting Chirk with Glyn Ceiriog and the Glyn valley tramway trust are working towards a recreation of the tramway from Chirk. Speaking here in 2014, and again last year, I called on the Welsh Government to consider supporting the reopening of the rail line from Gaerwen to Llangefni as a heritage connection. Last month, I visited Welsh Slate in Bethesda, which dates back over 400 years. I've worked for many years with Brymbo heritage group and trust, which works to promote the industrial history of Brymbo and adjacent areas and develop the site as a visitor attraction, including the ironworks' core buildings and Brymbo fossil forest.

Shotton Point represents an important part of the heritage of Deeside, particularly in relation to steel making. The Victorian Society included the former office building of John Summers steelworks, including its iconic grade II listed clock tower, on its 2018 top 10 endangered buildings list. I recently visited the non-profit Enbarr foundation in Queensferry to discuss their exciting Shotton Point John Summers site project, bringing local people, businesses and community organisations together to plan, develop and build the future of the site.

The area between Wrexham and Mold, where I live, was once the site of many collieries. The Llay miners heritage centre is dedicated to telling the story of the coal-mining history in north-east Wales. North East Wales Heritage Forum celebrates, conserves and promotes the region's rich heritage, and I attended their Wrexham heritage fair on 27 July. The Romans mined lead at Halkyn, sandstone was quarried at Gwespyr and industrial initiatives centred on the Greenfield valley, ranging from copper to cotton, are an exemplar of the industrial revolution. I commend the guided heritage walks through Greenfield valley and visits to its heritage park. I also attended Northop Heritage Group's history day on 21 September, which ranged from coaching routes to brick making, in Buckley.

Later this month, Theatr Clwyd's performances of the Mold riots 150 years ago will remember the social unrest after two coal miners were sentenced to prison for attacking the manager of Leeswood Green colliery, which influenced the future of policing of public disturbances across Great Britain. Taking all this together, it is now time for Welsh Government to turn words into action by bringing all this people power together to unlock the potential for regional industrial heritage-led regeneration. Thank you.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

It's not often that I agree entirely with something from Members from other political parties, but this is one of those occasions. I would also like to place on record my support for opening the Abernant tunnel in the Cynon valley, and any other tunnel in Wales that would prove beneficial for the local communities that it would serve.

As a Member for the Rhondda, I'm sure you would expect me to focus on that constituency for the rest of my contribution. There are undoubted positive impacts that the tunnel between Blaencwm and Blaengwynfi could have for the Rhondda. When the Rhondda Tunnel Society was formed in 2014, their determination, enthusiasm and momentum were admirable. I'm a member of the Rhondda Tunnel Society, so I must declare an interest as well as declare my staunch support for the society in this debate.

While much has been achieved in the time that they've been set up, their efforts have been hampered by this question of ownership. I've got letters going back more than three years, asking the Welsh Government to take responsibility for this asset so that the project can move to the next stage, and I can't tell you how frustrating it is that this matter has not been resolved as we approach 2020. I know that that frustration is shared by the very patient and forgiving members of the Rhondda Tunnel Society.

The members of the society are not looking for a blank cheque from the Welsh Government or any admission of liability. They are more than willing to accept any arrangement that absolves the Welsh Government of financial expense just so that they can have the tunnel back where it belongs, in Welsh hands. This will allow them, then, to apply for grants and funding from other sources. Without this ownership matter resolved, we remain in a deadlock.

We know that there's no obstruction coming from England over the tunnel's ownership. I established three years ago that they had no objections to giving back the tunnel to Wales. I also understand that correspondence was sent to the Welsh Government in 2017 from the UK Department for Transport offering ownership of the Rhondda tunnel and £60,000 to reflect savings to that department in survey costs. The UK Department for Transport are still waiting for a reply to that offer. So, I really hope we can end the stalling now and make some progress.

The Rhondda tunnel could be the catalyst for the cycle infrastructure that we've been crying out for in the Rhondda Fawr for years. It would help promote activity, thus tackling the obesity epidemic that we face as a society. It would also facilitate car-free local journeys, helping us to fulfil our responsibility to reduce the carbon that we emit into the atmosphere. It has the potential to be a big draw for tourists—not just cyclists, but also walkers. Just imagine the boost that this could provide for local businesses. Other countries have maximised their cycle tourism, and it's time that Wales did the same. So, whilst the last three years have been something of a wasted opportunity as far as the ownership question is concerned, it's not too late to see this project succeed. Let's grasp the opportunity that is presented to us from the legacy of our industrial past and put it to good use.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I'm so pleased to have been able to have co-tabled today's motion, tabled in the name of my colleague the AM for Aberavon and also co-tabled with Leanne Wood. Both David Rees and Leanne Wood have been real champions of the Rhondda tunnel, and I thank them for their support for my call for the Abernant tunnel, and also to members of the Rhondda Tunnel Society who have offered their expertise and all sorts of advice to us in the Cynon Valley regarding that too.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I want to spend the bulk of my time talking about the Abernant tunnel that connects Cwmbach to Merthyr or, as it is known locally, the Merthyr tunnel. This former railway tunnel, designed by Brunel, was part of the Vale of Neath Railway and is one strand, one branch, of the rich network of historic industrial infrastructure that we enjoy in Wales. Indeed, for 110 years, the main role of this amazing structure was to export coal from the Aberdare area to meet demand further afield. This reminds us of one of the negative aspects of that heritage, and of the industrial revolutions themselves: the precious mineral deposits, the struggle and toil of working men, the natural environment, all exploited for the enrichment of the few.

However, as the second point of the motion sets out, reopening these tunnels could provide opportunities for real, lasting benefits for the many, firstly, in terms of integrated transport and active travel opportunities. The walking and cycling charity, Sustrans, did a piece of work looking at the 21 disused railway tunnels in south-east Wales. They found that the Abernant tunnel scored highest under the Sustrans route assessment and transport evaluation tool.

As the Deputy Minister knows, this is their mechanism for evaluating the potential of walking and cycling schemes. And as Sustrans noted, it could provide a direct, traffic-free active travel route from Aberdare to Merthyr, and this is something that we don’t have at present. Indeed, I know of many constituents who cycle alongside the A465 Heads of the Valleys road as there is no real alternative, partly on a cycle path and partly on a rough grass verge in order to commute to work. So, the potential is there.

It has, as the Sustrans report says, the highest potential of all the routes analysed to encourage modal shift by encouraging commuting. It was just today that my colleague, the AM for Ogmore, Huw Irranca-Davies, noted that since the advent of the active travel Act in Wales, we've actually seen a decline in people walking and cycling. I see these tunnels as really being a catalyst that could turn that around and bring the active travel Act to life.

It could boost health and well-being, as other colleagues in this debate have noted, especially amongst children and older people too. The tunnel itself connects with a series of footpaths that are very well used on the Cwmbach side already for cycling, walking and dog walking, and also on the Merthyr side the path links very closely to BikePark Wales. So, there are tourist opportunities there as well, and the practical benefits that it would bring to linking in areas of high deprivation and population density.

The Sustrans report also suggested that the tunnel was in a very viable condition, meaning that it would present a reasonable option in terms of cost-benefit analysis too. That's something that I saw for myself when I was treated to a tour of the tunnel alongside my colleague, the AM for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, Dawn Bowden. The tunnel, which is gated at either end, as you may have seen in some of the images that were shown earlier, has been really well maintained, with over £100,000 of investment in the interior to make sure that it is in a safe and viable condition.

In this regard, it gives me the chance to pay tribute to the work of Hammond ECS Ltd. They're a specialist structural maintenance company who are actually based in the village of Cwmbach in my constituency. They have a key role to play, this family-run business, in ensuring that not only the Abernant tunnel, but also the rest of the network—which, as we know, is currently owned by Highways England—has been kept in a suitable condition, because they hold the contracts to do just that.

This, for me, is another important strand of the argument in favour of repurposing the tunnels, for not only would opening these tunnels offer transport opportunities, but they offer also chances for economic development and regeneration, as the motion mentions, and business opportunities for companies like Hammond ECS, companies employing local people in skilled jobs. Sustrans, indeed, cite a figure of 0.74 jobs for every kilometre of active travel route created. When we look at other tunnels that have been converted, such as the Two Tunnels Greenway in Somerset, people have flocked from all over to celebrate their opening.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can you wind up, please?

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

So, I hope that we can see progress on these ambitions and convert these symbols of nineteenth-century industrialism into one of twenty-first century sustainable prosperity.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I must say, when this debate appeared on the order paper, I was intrigued by the title of the debate and I've enjoyed the opportunity we've had this afternoon to share some of our memories, in some cases, but also our ambitions and aspirations for reinventing the communities in which we live. Because when I think about the industrial architecture or the industrial infrastructure that I grew up with, it speaks to us of who we are as a people today.

I grew up and went to school in the shadows of the Sirhowy ironworks, one of the biggest ironworks in Wales, when it was established at the end of the eighteenth century. I played rugby and football on fields in the shadows of the nine arches, which, of course, carried the Heads of the Valleys railway from Tredegar to Merthyr and then down to Abergavenny. And what it did, of course, was to tell us not just of the big, massive, global economic forces that shaped the economy of south Wales, but it also taught us about how we are linked and connected to each other. I think, in all sorts of different political debates, all too often we try to focus on those things that divide us from each other, but what our industrial infrastructure tells me is how we're all linked together. We spoke in a debate earlier in the year about how the Bryn Oer tramroad links Talybont in Breconshire with Trefil and with Tredegar, but look across a couple of Valleys into Brynmawr, and you also have the Disgwylfa tramroad, which took materials from the Llangattock quarries in Breconshire, again, in the Usk valley, to Nantyglo and which Bailey used then in making iron in creating the Nantyglo ironworks. These are important linkages that exist today. I can cycle along the Bryn Oer tramroad, I've walked along the Disgwylfa tramroad, and you can understand our history and understand who we are as a people and a community.

Last Friday, I was lucky enough to join a group of residents from Llanhilleth who had reopened somewhere called Granny's Wood. Now, the granny in question's name was Margaret Griffiths and she enabled her grandchildren, who were there last week, as it happens, to play on an area of land that had previously been the Llanhilleth quarry. If you walk down—you don't find it unless you're looking for it—from the old pithead baths to where the shafts actually were, the old pitheads down the Burma road, as they described it, that the colliers would walk up, of course, at the end of the shift, and then along the pathway that miners would walk on to and from work when the Llanhilleth pits were at their height, of course, there would have been hundreds of men walking back and forth there every day. Today, it's a peaceful and tranquil and rediscovered part of our heritage and our places, and I hope that we'll be able to look towards ensuring as part of the Valleys Regional Park that these experiences, these places, these histories and these linkages become part of who we're going to be as well.

The understanding of history, I believe, is absolutely fundamental to the future of public policy. When I think about how these different tramways, railways and roads have linked us, I also think of something else, which is a much older form of transport, of course, and that is our rivers. It hasn't been mentioned in the debate this afternoon, and our rivers, particularly in south Wales, rarely are, but if you ever speak to Councillor Malcolm Cross in Tredegar, he will talk about how he believes that the rivers of south Wales are our great neglected asset. And, do you know what? I think he's right. If you look at Vale Terrace in Tredegar, it's built facing the river because the river at that time was one of the primary forms of transport, before we used canals and—. I'll take an intervention.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for giving way, Alun. As you've mentioned rivers, as the chair of the cross-party Assembly group on waterways, it'd be remiss of me not to also mention the important role that canals have played in our history and industrial heritage. So, when you mention rivers, then perhaps you could give—actually, I'm not speaking in this today—perhaps you could give a word to our canals as well.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

But you have spoken in the debate now and you have done exactly that, and I commend the Member for Monmouthshire in doing so.

But, of course, the tramways that I've described do all link down to the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal as well, and the Disgwylfa and the Llangattock tramway do link in with the wharfs down in Govilon with which he's very familiar. But I hope that, as the Government takes forward work on the Valleys taskforce, we will look again at the rivers of south Wales.

In recent years, public policy has been targeted at cleansing the water within those rivers, and rightly so; it's important. When I was growing up in Tredegar, I always considered myself lucky that the water I played in in the Sirhowy river was always brightly coloured, and nowadays I hope my own son would take a different view. But I hope, in replying to this debate, we can look again at the rivers of south Wales because our developments have, over decades and perhaps centuries, turned us away from our rivers, turned us away from the natural environment and not understood how fully that has shaped our own histories. And I think the rivers of south Wales—Malcolm Cross will tell me, and he's right—are the great undiscovered, neglected gem of our valleys.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

The first Wales-only legislation for the historic environment became law in 2016, and it is an area that is of supreme importance to Wales, to our economy as well as our culture, and I take, obviously, a particular interest in my constituency of Islwyn.

Crumlin in Islwyn sits in the heart of the Gwent valleys and is the beating heart of the Valleys taskforce geography. It is a proud community with a strong industrial heritage and a strong industrial memory. The Navigation colliery in Crumlin opened in 1907 with the sinking of the mineshafts by the private mine owners Partridge, Jones and Company Limited, and it is an example of listed outstanding industrial architecture. In 1947 it was run by the National Coal Board, following nationalisation by the Attlee Labour Government, and it finally closed its doors in 1967. In the subsequent decades, this imposing edifice—. If anybody's had the luck or joy or pleasure of travelling through Crumlin on its route to Ebbw Vale, you will see a series of almost regency-styled red-brick buildings with the landmark chimney stack, now that the viaduct has gone, slowly beginning to decline into ruin, but still remaining one of the best preserved intact colliery buildings of Wales.

I welcome hugely my colleague Dai Rees and others bringing this debate to the floor of this Chamber because Crumlin is still a proud mining community that has huge economic regenerative potential to directly benefit from investment—and that's the word: 'from investment'—in its iconic, historical, industrial infrastructure. As such, I'm delighted that the transport Minister Ken Skates has confirmed that in 2020 the Ebbw Vale line that runs directly through the communities of Newbridge, Crosskeys and Risca in my constituency will serve the important Gwent city of Newport and Islwyn. And the potential reopening of the Crumlin railway station to serve this community and its attractions must, in my view, happen. We know that the opening of new railway stations is a convoluted process that is still very badly shaped and governed by UK processes, and we urgently need an ability in Wales to increase our ability to reopen stations and reuse railway lines lost to the nation from the 1960s, when the Beeching cuts devastated transport links and weakened our local economies.

So, here in Crumlin, at the Navigation colliery, dedicated bands of local men and women are committed to sustaining and bringing new life into the Navigation colliery, built to exhibition standard. It is a registered charity, working alongside the site's owner, South Wales Building Preservation Trust, to maintain and prevent deterioration of these buildings further and deliver effective renovation planning. It is made up of iconic and beautiful grade II buildings, as I've mentioned, buildings that could form the beating heart of regeneration activity within the heart of a Valleys taskforce area because the historic industrial environment and its infrastructure tell the story of Wales and tell the story of our people. They are both our legacy and our future.

They deliver a collective memory, both fragile and precious, and we must be careful to pass on to each generation our collective memory and our cultural legacy. The reason is because we don't wish to live in the past, but because the past is part of the fabric of who we are as a people, and who we are as a nation. They tell the story of Wales, a narrative untouched in all of its glory, both good and ill, both rich and poor, of the many and of the few, and do tell the struggle of our peoples.

Crumlin, with its magnificent Navigation colliery and its famous lost viaduct and former working railway station, demands action and vision to restore them to benefit future generations, both economically, culturally, socially and for the well-being of our future generations.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

I will be brief, Deputy Presiding Officer, because the part of this resolution, which I welcome, that is most important to me is the bit that talks about regaining control over some of the industrial infrastructure that we have. I particularly refer to the network that still exists on an enormous number of old railway lines all around south Wales and certainly many other parts of Wales as well. Certainly, in the Taff-Ely part of my constituency, where there was an enormous amount of residential development taking place, we know that, in reality, public transport is the only viable solution in terms of dealing with the congestion on our roads, and that needs a form of buses, but also the reopening of railway lines, and it is the reopening of railway lines that, I think, is one of the great opportunities that we actually have.

There is an old railway line that goes from Cardiff, through Creigiau, that formerly linked up into Beddau spur and then through to Llantrisant and to Pontyclun. I'm very pleased that there is a business plan that is under way, hoping to report fairly soon, that might lead to the reopening of that railway line, one of the first of these old lines to be reopened but to provide a modern solution to our public transport needs.

The key thing that occurred most when we were looking at this, and I know it's an issue that applies all over many other parts of Wales, is that we have to actually still preserve what is there, because it is rapidly disappearing. Parts of it are being encroached upon, parts of these old railway lines are being built upon in various ways, and the opportunities that we have for new railway lines, or new, bespoke routes, whether they be for active travel, whether they be for public transport, are in danger of disappearing. So, the actual mapping of these routes and ensuring the protection and ownership of these routes is fundamental, and I believe this resolution contributes towards that task.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I congratulate David Rees, Leanne Wood and Vikki Howells for bringing forward this debate? As their motion recognises, there is significant potential in the network of historic industrial infrastructure across Wales, in particular the old railway tunnels across the south Wales Valleys, that can serve the communities that surround them once again, providing important economic and social infrastructure.

But as the motion also notes, bringing them back into use does pose very real, practical and financial challenges. There are successful examples we can point to where the legacy of our industrial past has been harnessed to bring benefits today. The Ffestiniog railway and the Pontcysyllte aqueduct are examples of outstanding heritage assets that attract tourists and generate local employment, as well as telling the story of the past. We've recently announced funding through the Valleys Regional Park for £7 million for gateways to the Valleys Regional Park that will add to that too. Of course, these were not regenerated into the jewels they are today overnight, but as we look at other opportunities to bring the legacies of our industrial heritage back to life, we need to remember that Blaenau Ffestiniog wasn't built in a day.

Members have spoken persuasively this afternoon about the potential that the network of old railway tunnels across south Wales have as transport corridors, as Mick Antoniw has just mentioned. Other former railway lines have had a new lease of life as walking and cycling routes. The Taff trail, for example, between Brecon and Cardiff, and the Ystwyth trail, which connects Aberystwyth with Tregaron, are excellent examples.

I don't need any persuading to support the principles of the motion. Indeed, I was involved some 10 years ago in the scoping exercise that looked at the potential that these tunnels have for changing the dynamics of travelling between the Valleys. The fairly direct and flat routes that visionary engineers bored through our mountains, to carry trains in the industrial age, can help re-engineer the way we think about travel in the modern era. Even an electric bike over the Merthyr mountain may be asking a lot of most people, but a quick, direct route under it is an altogether more realistic ask—but only if the tunnels are linked up to a network of paths that connect destinations that people want to travel to. After all, active travel is about replacing car journeys with cycling and walking for everyday trips. To meet the challenge of the climate emergency, we need to replace car trips with zero or low-emission alternatives as quickly as possible.

Our priority, therefore, must be to put investment where it can have the quickest and most significant payback. Often, a mundane contraflow down a one-way street or a wider pavement may change an environment to make walking and cycling a visible option. In other cases, a harder engineering intervention like a segregated cycle path on a main road, to separate bicycles and cars, is what's needed. Having recently ridden down Cardiff's Senghenydd Road, I can testify to the dramatic impact that the segregated cycle lane being constructed there can make. I'm sure that once that route is completed, we'll see a very big increase in cycling in that part of the city.

So, we need the right infrastructure in the right places. Alongside it, we need training and promotion to bring about a culture change. As we look at the suite of interventions needed to bring this about, I'm in no doubt that the network of old tunnels has its part to play. But with limited resource, we have to prioritise. Today's motion asks the Welsh Government to take into our ownership this network of tunnels, and then to seek funding opportunities. I have to say to Members that I cannot support this approach. In my view, it is the wrong way around. Taking on the massive liabilities of these old tunnels would involve a very big investment of money and capacity at a time when our focus needs to be on getting early wins for the active travel Act. In themselves, the tunnels will not bring about modal shift, which must be our focus as we look to meet our very ambitious carbon reduction targets. They can play a part, but only in an integrated approach.

The active travel Act, which was passed by this Chamber six years ago this week, sets out an approach to creating a network of routes—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Will you take an intervention?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

—which will help make active travel a realistic option for most people. Let me just finish this section and I will.

It requires councils to consult with people on routes they'd like to appear over the next 15 years across their communities, to safely connect them by foot and by bike to everyday destinations. Councils will then enshrine their desired routes onto an integrated network map, which will form the basis of future funding bids.

I give way to Bethan Sayed.