Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 8 January 2020

316 contributions from 43 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda is questions to the finance Minister. The first question [OAQ54853] has been withdrawn, and therefore question 2 from Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2020-21? OAQ54865

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's budget for 2020-21? OAQ54878

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Llywydd, I understand you've given your permission for questions 2 and 8 to be grouped.

The Welsh Government's draft budget follows the UK Government's one-year spending round, which does not turn the page on austerity. Our budget in 2020-21 will be £300 million less in real terms than 2010-11, but, nonetheless, the Welsh Government is investing in a more prosperous, more equal and greener Wales.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Well, thanks to the UK Government, of course, you've got an extra £600 million in the budget for 2021—2020, is that right—2020-21, compared to the previous financial year. And that gives you some great opportunities. One of those opportunities, of course, is to mitigate the impact of climate change, particularly around the coasts of Wales, which are at risk of flooding. Now, I do welcome the investment that has been made available for the Old Colwyn promenade in my constituency in recent months. It's not quite the amount that the local authority, Conwy County Borough Council, were looking for in order to do the proper job that is required in the longer term, but it at least will make some sort of difference to the flood risk in that particular community. But, of course, there are other parts of the north Wales coast that are also at risk, including in the Towyn and Kinmel Bay area, which, of course was devastated by floods 30 years ago this year.

Can I ask specifically what resources you've made available for flood defences in the Welsh Government's budget for 2020-2021, and whether any of that which has been allocated is going to go to shore up those defences in the Towyn and Kinmel Bay area, so that we can prevent the sort of devastation we saw 30 years ago?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful for the question, and, as I was able to set out in my statement on the draft budget yesterday, additional funding has been found for next year to provide funding to support communities at particular danger in terms of climate change and flooding, but that's on top of the additional funding that we're putting through our innovative housing programme for coastal risk management. And that's a programme worth £150 million over the course of this Assembly, which has been previously announced by my colleague the Minister for Environment and Rural Affairs. The schemes that we support are clearly the ones where the evidence base says the most need is there, but obviously I'd be happy to have conversations with Members if they have got particular concerns about areas within their own constituencies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to you for that earlier answer, Minister. In terms of the overall budget, during our conversation in the Finance Committee before Christmas, you confirmed that there would be a real-terms cut to the funds being available to support and to sustain bus services across the country. This is something that I think many of us will find very difficult, because a Government that is committed to climate change—and I think I welcomed yesterday the funds available for climate policy—and committed also to public transport, with the legislation that the First Minister referred to yesterday as well, means that we do need to be able to provide real support for public transport, and particularly public transport in communities such as those that I and yourself represent. There is already a great deal of funding going into active travel, which I support; there is a great deal of support going to rail, which I also support. But I'm increasingly concerned that the Government does not regard bus services as a sufficient priority. The fact that it's being cut in real terms in next year's budget will be a grave disappointment to many of us on all sides of this Chamber.

I'd therefore be extremely grateful, Minister, if you would consider reviewing this element of the budget to ensure that we do have the funds available to support and to sustain the bus services that link sometimes some very fragile communities with the services that they require.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, obviously, there have been difficult decisions that have had to be made within individual portfolios in terms of whether or not they're able to increase funding for particular elements of their budgets or simply maintain those areas of spend. And, as Alun Davies quite rightly says, the spending of £25 million has been maintained rather than increased in terms of the bus services support grant. But, of course, the bus services support grant is only one of the ways in which we support bus services in Wales, and local authorities are generally responsible for deciding which services should be supported financially out of public money, based on their assessments of the local circumstances and needs. And local authorities very often do put in funding from their own revenue support grant in order to support those local bus services and community transport schemes as well. And, of course, every single local authority across Wales will have seen an increase in their budget in the next financial year, as set out in the draft budget, which I think is something to be recognised. But, alongside this, we support the bus and community network through our funding for Wales's TrawsCymru network of longer distance bus services, the all-Wales Traveline Cymru line, which provides information and journey planning, and the work of Bus Users Cymru, which represents passengers, and of course the Community Transport Association and the Traffic Commissioner for Wales's office as well. And, importantly, we are continuing to support the bus travel scheme for 16 to 21-year-olds, and of course our hugely popular bus travel scheme for older and disabled persons. And those are important of course, because they do increase demand for buses and help to keep those services sustainable in the longer term.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mohammad Asghar.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Sorry.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's okay. I'll move on.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

It's not me, sorry.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 3, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government manages its budget? OAQ54852

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government operates within the budget regime set by the UK Government. Budgets are monitored closely by officials, and this includes forecasting and explaining budget variances. I receive monthly reports from the finance director, and discuss financial performance with officials. I am responsible for approving budget amendments during the year.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank you for that answer, Minister. I'd like to examine one aspect of your budget, and that is the local government settlement. With regard to that, I'd like to quote some figures to you: 2 per cent, 4.2 per cent, and 6.5 per cent. The first figure, of 2 per cent, is the UK inflation rate; the second figure, of 4.2 per cent, is the generous average increase in the budget allocated by your Government to local authorities. So, why is it, Minister, that the third figure, of 6.5 per cent, indicates the average increase in local authority council tax charges? Does this not point to poor financial management by local authorities, and should you revise your reward with regard to that?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, of course, the setting of council tax is a matter for local councils themselves. And I have to say the Welsh Local Government Association have recognised the settlement that local authorities have received this year as being an exceptionally good one. And we've worked really closely with the WLGA and others in terms of setting the budget and understanding the pressures that they're under. And it was our commitment at the start to give local authorities the best possible settlement, and I think it's fair to say that many local authorities have been pleasantly surprised at the settlements that they've been able to receive. And some have indicated that the increases in council tax in their local areas won't be as large as they perhaps had first envisaged, because of the support Welsh Government has been able to give.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales has said that there's still a disconnect between budget allocations and our quite proper aspirations to reach a low-carbon and carbon-neutral Wales. And I notice the committee also said that the draft budget should explain and demonstrate clearly how funding allocations will support the decarbonisation priority. So, can we expect that future budgets will be more transparent and clear in this regard, or do you think that this year's one is best practice?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I certainly don't think we've got to the point where we can say we have achieved complete best practice yet, and that's been very clear, because we've set an ambitious budget improvement plan. I see that as a five-year rolling plan in terms of how we can continually strive to improve the way that we set our budget and the way that we can make considerations about where we put Welsh Government—or the Welsh public's—money. In terms of developing that budget improvement plan, we did so with the future generations commissioner, who, I have to say, has commended the Welsh Government on taking a good step towards creating a greener Wales. Obviously, we recognise we have some way to go yet. But that budget improvement plan takes on board the journey checker, which the future generations commissioner developed, and that's all about how you can demonstrate in practice, and how you can ensure, that the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is right there, front and centre, at the decision-making point, throughout the budget process and its monitoring and assessment.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, can you tell us how your budget for the year 2020-2021 is going to support Welsh businesses?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Certainly. Only yesterday I was able to announce, as part of the budget 2020-21, that we would be continuing to extend our high street and retail rate relief scheme into 2020-21. So, that's more than £24 million of funding, which supports over 15,000 businesses with their rates. I think that's really important, but, actually, that goes alongside £230 million of other relief for businesses in Wales, meaning that around half of businesses in Wales pay absolutely no rates at all.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Well, of course, we welcome any business rate relief, but the fact of the matter is that, in spite of that relief, which you are extending, we've still got the most punitive business rates regime in the whole of the United Kingdom. And, of course, in addition to having the highest business rates in Great Britain, we also have very high land transaction tax for non-commercial properties, and they will continue to be higher than in either Scotland or England for the foreseeable future. Why is it that you didn't take the opportunity to have a look at reducing those taxes in order to promote investment and to promote business as the wealth creators in Wales in your budget, and will you reconsider that position before bringing the final budget to this Chamber later in the year?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, I'd start, of course, by suggesting that Darren Millar is wrong to suggest we have punitive business rates in Wales, because, actually, a larger proportion of businesses in Wales pay no rates at all than do across the border in England. And the place where we set our business rates really does reflect the fact that our average rateable value in Wales is different to in England. So, in England, it is around £50,000, and only £30,000 in Wales, so I think it is only right that our system reflects the different rateable values and the different picture that we have here in Wales.

In terms of land transaction tax, obviously we do have a different, higher rate for non-residential taxes. And those are for purchases of over £1 million. When you get to £1.1 million, the land transaction tax does start to become higher than stamp duty land tax. Of course, that rate was agreed by the Assembly when we voted on that. I think it's important to recognise that this is the first year of those particular rates, so we are obviously keeping a close eye on them, but we're also keeping a close eye on what is happening in Ireland and Scotland as well. Because we've all set out on different paths and we have no indication thus far that those rates are putting off businesses from locating in Wales, because, when businesses locate, it's for a multitude of reasons, one of which will be the land transaction tax, but, obviously, other issues such as skills and Government support for business will obviously be factors.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Well, you had a golden opportunity, Minister—and you've missed it, frankly—to reduce the business rate multiplier and to make it more attractive for people to come here and invest in Wales—an extra £600 million provided by the UK Government, a Welsh block grant at a record high level. And, of course, in spite of this, you expect us to believe that there's nothing that you can do in order to reduce the impact of those taxes on business.

The reality of the situation is that we've got a Government here that doesn't keep control of its expenditure properly. We've had a £51 million additional cost as a result of delays and overspend on the Heads of the Valleys road, £221 million invested in uncompetitive enterprise zones and, of course, we've seen—and it was highlighted again just yesterday—tens of millions of pounds each and every year going into a black hole down the road at Cardiff Airport.

Now, we know that, each year, when January comes around, many people take the opportunity to reflect and establish some new year's resolutions. Can I suggest that you have a new year's resolution, and that is to stop wasting taxpayers' money and to do everything you can to support businesses as the wealth creators in Wales that will help to generate the income that your Government so desperately says that it needs?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think, in terms of our support for business, the figures that we've already seen for land transaction tax do speak for themselves, because, in the first year of land transaction tax, the changes to the rates ensure that we do maintain our attractiveness to commercial enterprises. And, as a result of these new tax rates, over 90 per cent of non-residential transactions in Wales pay the same or less tax than they would across the border in England, and we expect those changes to lead to an increase in commercial activity in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Minister, it's totally unreasonable, I think, that the Welsh budget for the coming year is having to be scrutinised before UK Government spending plans, including details of the Welsh block grant, have been announced. The UK budget statement is now due on 11 March, just after our scrutiny of the budget here ends. It's just another example on a long and growing list of why Westminster isn't working for Wales. But is this why Welsh Government's budget is so unambitious and lacking in innovation?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I do have to say, what I think is lacking in innovation and lacking in ambition is when opposition parties put out press releases that could have been written before. I think it's almost par for the course, isn't it, that an opposition party will say that there's been a missed opportunity or that they're disappointed? How about studying and scrutinising the budget and genuinely challenging things that you think should be different? How about putting forward alternative budgets? How about putting forward ideas for ways in which Welsh Government money should otherwise be spent? I think that would just be a much more useful contribution to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I've no idea to which press release you're referring, but I'll continue with scrutinising Welsh Government's budget. There are no step changes to be seen in Government thinking; it's budget management, that's what we see. Climate change is one of those areas where your Government has failed to demonstrate meaningfully, I think, how spending is really addressing the climate crisis—taking big decisions now for our long-term good. Now, as the future generations commissioner has pointed out, the Government can't even tell us how your spending plans will impact on carbon emissions. To see why we need that kind of assessment, look at the Wales infrastructure investment plan update for 2019; it shows an investment of £1.56 billion on roads compared with an investment of £818 million in sustainable transport, which suggests to me that elements of your budgeting could actually be undermining your net zero carbon objectives. Now, will you as Minister give us an assurance that all future budgets will be accompanied by a carbon impact assessment? And given that we have to focus on the preventative more and more right across Government spending areas, will you also provide a detailed document in future on where Government is spending for prevention?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I have had the opportunity to discuss this particular issue with the Minister for environment and rural affairs just this morning, because we are keen to be able to demonstrate the decisions that we make and the impact that they do have on our carbon reduction. However, it really is not that simple.

So, for example, investing in the infrastructure to support electric cars is only one part of the picture, because the actual carbon savings as a result of that will depend on uptake of electric vehicles, and that, in many ways, is dependent on various levers that the UK Government will be pulling in terms of tax. So, if you ask me how much we will save in terms of carbon because of our investment in electric charging points, as an example, we're unable to say. We are able to say how our investment, for example, in changing the refuse truck fleet across Wales will save, because we can demonstrate how much each truck emits.

So, you know, it is very difficult to demonstrate a full carbon impact assessment. Often, carbon savings are the primary reason why we do things, and often they are secondary benefits of the reasons why we do things. So, the picture is extremely complex. But, obviously, as we set out in our budget improvement plan, we will continue to strive to explain the decisions that we take in terms of carbon impact assessments. But, it really is not as simple as perhaps the Member suggested.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

But, Minister, if I may suggest, the truth of the matter is that of course it's difficult for you to measure the impact, because you're not carrying out impact assessments. So, I'm asking you, as a Government, to ensure that, in future budgets, you do carry out an assessment of how exactly the expenditure decisions you take are going to have an impact on our ambitions in terms of cutting our carbon outputs.

This budget is an opportunity missed, as I said yesterday. There is some relief—and that is temporary, I fear—in terms of the funds available for spending in the next financial year, but the opportunity hasn't been taken to invest properly now for the long term. We are not thinking sufficiently about the well-being of our nation in the long term.

Plaid Cymru has already committed to introducing well-being budgetary processes, including carbon assessments, for example. But, nobody really sees this as a budget that is ground-breaking, a budget that provides hope and that shows ambition for following a new path. So, when will you, as a Minister, realise that management of itself is not enough?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I would obviously disagree with what the Member's suggesting—that this budget is business as usual. Of course it's not. We see a major package of investment in decarbonisation and biodiversity, which I'm sorry that he can't bring himself to welcome.

So, we'll see £5 million used to create town centre green infrastructure and encourage biodiversity. How often do we talk in this Chamber about how important it is that we green our town centres? We have got a specific environmental growth fund, which will be looking after local places for nature and encourage applications to support a halt to the decline of nature in our local communities. The Member says that this is scheme—of course it's a scheme, but it is part of a wider package that is changing direction and changing the focus of our budget.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Brexit Party spokesperson, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Finance Minister, I spoke with you the day that the budget was announced and made some of the points that we have heard from Rhun today, and partly yesterday. And I'm pleased to hear that you met with Lesley Griffiths this morning to consider some of these matters. However, in your statement yesterday, you said that you're investing in the areas where we can have the greatest impact for our environment. You then cited four of them: active travel; electric bus fleet; new ways of building homes; and the national forest. Could I ask, how did you prioritise these areas and decide how much to invest in each of those different areas?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, these particular schemes came about as part of the work that we did cross-Government, where every Member of the Government took on one of our eight cross-cutting areas, which is an area that they normally wouldn't have oversight of, and then endeavoured to work across Government with colleagues to look for opportunities for new ideas, new areas of spend, that could really make a difference, and those areas where the evidence tells us that a difference can be made. So, these are the schemes that came out as a result of that cross-Government work.

Looking at the evidence, we don't have to do all the empirical evidence gathering ourselves—just looking for examples of best practice globally in terms of what we know works, and taking advice from the UK Committee on Climate Change in terms of what they would like to see Welsh Government focusing its efforts on in terms of decarbonisation and lowering our carbon emissions across Wales.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

I can see that the Minister wants to draw on best practice. And to the extent there's a UK Committee on Climate Change and it has a list of various projects that it considers may be effective, I can see why she uses that as a starting point. But, as a finance Minister taking a decision about how much of our precious resources to invest into particular areas, surely, to the extent this is badged as about climate change, she would like to make the maximum difference she could for the amount of money that she has available? Whether the climate impact assessment Rhun suggested is the right way or not, I don't know. But, surely, she needs to do more work on understanding what the bang for her buck—if she does get such—is in each of these different areas?

For example, she mentions the national forest—and, on balance, it strikes me as a good initiative to plant more trees and to have a national forest and work on that in Wales—but, what is the relative cost of that compared to another of her initiatives, which is to invest money in planting trees in Uganda, given the different types of trees that grow, how fast they grow, how much carbon dioxide they absorb, how much it costs to plant them, and how effective is the governance going to be about that? Surely, we need to consider that?

She talks about the way we build new homes, and elsewhere in the budget she emphasises the importance of affordable homes. But, may there not be a trade-off between these two different ambitions? One area where there is, I think, strong evidence of the effectiveness of spending is on energy efficiency and on home insulation, where you both reduce energy bills for the person involved and may have some impact in terms of what she seeks to do around climate change. Is that not an area where she should be investing money, relative to other areas that may be more expensive? For instance, what is the cost of getting that electric bus compared to, say, investing in a few more buses, for example, for Blaenau Gwent? It might either get people out of their cars or allow them to transport in ways they wouldn't otherwise be able to do. Please, in advance of next year's budget, at least, can we have a more rigorous way of making these assessments?

And, she talks about wanting to invest money in communications—I assume telling people how wonderful the Welsh Government is and what it's doing about climate change—but, will she consider actually effective messaging? One of the things that stops those trees being planted is the CAP, because farmland is subsidised but, generally, not woodland. If that's going to change, how will she publicise that? How will she encourage people to do that home insulation, which will benefit them as well? Will she work harder to join up and improve policy in this area?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think the two areas that Mark Reckless focused on—well, two of the areas that he focused on—are actually two of the areas where the evidence from the UK CCC indicated that decarbonisation efforts should be focused on. So, one is the road transport sector—one that's crucial to delivering a net-zero target—and so, in response to that and the evidence that the UK CCC provided, over £60 million of additional targeted investment in decarbonisation is now directly aimed at the transport sector in our budget for next year.

And, alongside that, Mark Reckless identified housing, domestic heating and domestic energy as important areas to address. And again, UK CCC says that's somewhere we should be placing our attention. So, the budget provides an additional £25 million in our innovative housing programme to look at just that. So, we are taking the evidence that's being provided to us and the recommendations from experts and using them to inform our budgeting decisions.

Obviously, there are ways to compare things. So, Mark Reckless refers to our ambitious tree-planting project that we have in Uganda and then looks at the national forest work that we're doing here in Wales. And obviously, we want to do both. You can get more bang for your buck if you only plant those trees in Uganda. It's generally cheaper to do, they grow faster and so on. Depending on what kind of trees are planted, then you will have different results in terms of carbon. But, equally, we want to plant trees in Wales, because we know what the benefit will be for your well-being and so on if you do have the opportunity to walk amongst trees and in woodland. So, there are obviously several benefits to planting trees and they're certainly things that we would want to be doing in Wales, even though you could technically get more bang for your buck doing it elsewhere.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

4. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services with regards to the future funding of dental services? OAQ54875

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I have regular discussions with the Minister for Health and Social Services about a range of financial matters within his portfolio, including issues that impact on the provision of dental services.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Minister, in response to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee's inquiry into dentistry in Wales, the Welsh Government failed to commit a single penny of new investment. The British Dental Association has stated that:

'The crisis facing NHS dentistry in Wales won't be solved with a few warm words'.

Their words, not mine. Therefore, what discussions are you having with the health Minister to ensure that the necessary contract reforms and additional recruitment in dentists are supported by sufficient and additional funding?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I've had a number of discussions with the health Minister with regard to the contract reform and with regard to the issues facing dentistry across Wales, because I know this is an issue that comes up frequently in the Assembly. We've acknowledged that the current contractual system does need reform, and that's something that we are absolutely getting on with, and significant changes are already being made and those changes are being welcomed by dental teams.

We've said we want to see the number of practices participating in the reform programme expanding further, and we do expect now to see over half of practices being part of the programme by October 2020. Currently, there are 132, so that's around 30 per cent of dental practices currently taking part.

Obviously, there are workforce and retention issues that we're seeking to address as well. Part of that is through the training programmes that we're putting in place. There are year-on-year increases now in the number of dentists providing NHS care in Wales, but we recognise recruitment and retention is a particular issue, and particularly so in some parts of Wales—north Wales, mid Wales and west Wales, particularly—and it is causing some difficulty in terms of filling vacancies.

But, I can confirm that Health Education and Improvement Wales are now looking at the commissioning of training numbers, training and education packages to develop the workforce, and considering whether there are more effective workforce models to deliver services that could improve dentists' workloads and help make practices more sustainable and the career more attractive.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

That was interesting to hear, really, but these contract reforms have been going on in terms of pilots, or general progress, for about three or four years now. Bearing in mind that the change in the contract was about helping people become better at taking care of their own oral health, I would have thought that there might have been a reduced need for Welsh Government spending, not just due to fewer unnecessary appointments, but also fewer treatments for preventable damage.

In 2015-16, the old-style dental care and oral healthcare programmes cost Welsh Government £137 million plus the £33 million revenue from patient charges, which is 2.14 per cent of the NHS spending total. How does that compare now with the spend under this revised contract and what evidence did you get from the Minister to justify the changes?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

This year, we're providing over £146 million to the Welsh NHS for the provision of primary care dental services. We are seeing increased use of dental services, which is a good thing. So, the latest published data shows that 1.7 million people were regularly accessing NHS primary care dentistry, and that's 42,000 more people than was the case five years before the latest figures. We now have over 1,500 dentists working in the NHS in Wales compared to 1,439 back in 2014, so we are gradually seeing an increase in the number of dentists, but also a corresponding increase in the number of patients accessing those services.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

It is understandable that many care home residents have poor dental health when they first move into care, as they often move into care due to deteriorating health and lack of mobility. As dental access for children is at an all-time high, and, as you know, I speak very regularly about how good Designed to Smile is, does the Minister agree with me that it's fantastic news for older people that the A Lasting Smile programme budget will double next year, ensuring that the scheme reaches all care homes across Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank Mike Hedges for raising that particular, important issue and for his constant support for Designed to Smile. I remember in the finance scrutiny session just recently, he was able to cite that as one of the excellent examples of really, truly preventative spend that we do have in Wales. I think it's only right that we seek to focus our efforts to improve the dental and oral health of older people who are living in care homes, so I'm delighted that the Minister for Health and Social Services announced an additional £0.25 million to extend that Gwên am Byth—A Lasting Smile oral health programme into the next year, and we're doubling the available funding for that now to ensure that it's rolled out to every single care home in Wales during 2020.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

5. Will the Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is managing its resources to ensure value for money and effectiveness? OAQ54857

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government is committed to ensuring spending decisions are informed by robust evidence and value for money is considered throughout policy development. We draw on a range of guidance to make the best use of public resources, including the high-level principles set out in HM Treasury's Green Book.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

The Minister will know there's no shortage of candidates for increased spending where there is a real need, whether it's the health service or reducing fuel poverty or whatever. I think most Welsh taxpayers will scratch their heads, therefore, when they discover that £1.2 million is to be spent on organisations like the Welsh Centre for International Affairs—two thirds of whose income is spent on the salaries of its staff. Of the part of its income that is not spent on staff salaries, it supports organisations like Hub Cymru Africa, which receives £640,000 a year. It provides no accounts of its own, so we've no idea how many people it employs or what they earn, and it spends the money it doesn't spend on staff salaries mostly on non-Welsh items or other entities, who themselves mainly spend the money on staff salaries, like the sub-Sahara advisory panel, whose income is £68,000 a year, and its staff costs are greater at £74,000.

The Welsh Government has no responsibility for foreign aid, foreign development or foreign policy, so why are we indulging in this taxpayer-funded merry-go-round of virtue signalling for middle-class politicians in Cardiff Bay when there are real needs outside? As the blogger Jac o' the North has perhaps more pithily described it:

'A country with homeless on the streets, where kids go to school hungry, where people die waiting for ambulances, apparently has millions of pounds to spare so that dilettante English activists and useless Welsh politicians can feel better about themselves.'

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

This Welsh Government is proudly a global, internationalist Welsh Government that takes its responsibilities to the planet and to others very seriously. We're absolutely proud of the work that we're doing through our Wales for Africa programme. I think that perhaps it might speak more easily to the Member's set of values if I just make the point that, actually, it's in our own best interests if countries overseas that are currently struggling are able to cope better in so many ways. Peace overseas is in our own best interests. Ensuring that overseas countries are able to make their contribution to the climate crisis is in our own best interests. So, I think that perhaps those narrow thoughts might help the Member understand how important our Wales for Africa programme is.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Clearly, managing resources to ensure value for money and effectiveness includes play, which is key to children's health and well-being. The recent review of play sufficiency assessments carried out for the Welsh Government by Play Wales reported that the all-Wales play opportunities grant funding from Welsh Government has resulted in increased activity to secure play opportunities across Wales, and that the Welsh Government should be clear on how anti-poverty and other focused investments should be used to support play sufficiency. How do you therefore respond to concerns raised with me by play sector representatives this week who've been informed that the all-Wales play opportunities grant is not going ahead again in the next financial year; that the only thing that's been keeping the last remaining bits of play and play work infrastructure going across Wales has been this grant; and that, as a sector, they're haemorrhaging excellent staff who have jumped ship to pastures new, and whilst there is excellent work going on in some areas, there are still huge gaps in the infrastructure and provision is dwindling?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm aware of the good work of Play Wales. I've had the opportunity to see some of the things that they do locally within my own patch. What I will say is I'm not familiar particularly with the specific grant to which the Member refers, but if you would write to me with some further information, I can then discuss it perhaps with the relevant responsible Minister.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact that the Welsh Government's budget for 2020-21 will have on North Wales? OAQ54887

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The budget invests in all parts of Wales to support our public services, businesses and communities. This includes a £20 million boost for the north Wales metro within the Minister for Economy and Transport's portfolio, continuing our investment in an integrated, modern and efficient transport system for the region.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response. You’ll be aware, I’m sure, that I have a number of hydro energy schemes in my constituency, and I’ve raised this with you on a number of occasions in the past. There is grave concern in the sector, of course, about the situation of business rates—non-domestic business rates—and the impact that that will have on the sector. There have been calls and consideration has been given to changing the methodology for calculating the level of taxation, or there’s the grants scheme that’s been available from the Government to assist these hydro schemes with those payments, which will come to an end at the end of this financial year. There’s no assurances as to what the next financial year’s arrangements will be, and that throws a cloud over the sector and creates uncertainty. Having listened to you say how much you’re doing for the environment and tackling the climate emergency, it does raise a question as to why you haven’t been able to give a response and assurance to the sector before now. So, could we hear an update on this and can you give me an assurance that you will do everything that you can to safeguard this sector from the impacts of having to pay this tax in full?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful to Llyr for raising this issue. I know that he's got a very strong interest in the hydro energy sector, as do I and the Minister with responsibility for energy. We are currently awaiting a paper from the representative body of the hydro sector, which does refer to those potential changes in methodology that you described, but I'm open to having some further discussions, as I've already indicated to the Minister, in terms of support for the sector next year.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

In welcoming the £400 million increase to health and social care, we must note that this is less than the three-year cumulative overspend across the NHS. In north Wales, we have seen Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board record deficits of £20 million in 2015-16; £30 million in 2016-17; £39 million in 2017-18; and £41 million in 2018-19. These failures to break even are despite the health board having received £83 million in special measures funding. Now, as you know, Minister, light is not yet there on the horizon as the board is forecasting a £35 million deficit for 2019-20, missing your own target by £10 million. Since special measures, it cannot be argued that the health Minister has overseen and indeed allowed a poorly performing health board to become a huge financial vacuum. What assurances can you give me that money sent to this health board for 2020-21 will come with a solid strategy in place to clamp down on excessive spending and even more excessive waiting times?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

As I mentioned in the statement yesterday, the local health boards across Wales will be coming forward with their plans and their proposals for 2020-21 by the end of the month, and the health Minister and his officials will be robustly scrutinising and challenging those and then the health Minister will accept or not accept the plans as they come forward. Obviously, a focus on improvement and a focus on value for money will be at the heart of those considerations.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

Minister, one of the reasons I got into politics was the perception that north Wales just doesn't get its fair share of attention, funding or consideration as compared to the south. We've had a Minister for north Wales for over a year, he is yet to make a statement in that role, and I am frankly none the wiser as to whether that perception is correct. Minister, can you confirm that north Wales does actually get its fair share and how can we tell that?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, it isn't the case, of course, that north Wales does not get its fair share of funding. I'm just having a look at the figures on capital spend, which I have in front of me, and they show that the total projected cost of capital spend in the most recent year, for which we have those figures, is £2.5 million, and that is actually the second highest of all the regions. And that's just the first figure that I have in front of me. So, I think that the figures don't bear it out, and as much as it would come to the Member's disappointment, those arguments just aren't valid.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of the Welsh Government's budget on the people of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OAQ54881

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The draft budget 2020-21 delivers on our promises to the people of Wales and invests in the future of our planet. For example, our plans include funding to complete the £25 million investment for phase 2 of the women and children's scheme at Glangwili hospital.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that and, of course, the £25 million for Glangwili is extremely welcome. But, actually, I'm seeking clarity today from you regarding the budget allocation provided to maintain and update the NHS estate. It's not very clear in the overview where and how that capital funding could be deployed. I have a number of GP surgeries in my area that are not really fit for purpose anymore. We are asking general practice to provide more and more services to a greater number of people, many with comorbidities, and they need special access abilities and we need a raft of healthcare professionals that need premises to work from. We used to have a discrete fund of about £10 million that GPs could apply to to update their estate. That fund has disappeared over the last few years. I do note that there's £1.8 billion allocated to maintain and transform the NHS estate, but I'm not clear as to whether or not GPs will also be able to access that £1.8 billion or whether it is entirely for trusts and health boards.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank the Member for raising that question. I will perhaps, if she's content, ask the health Minister to provide the detailed answer to that question.FootnoteLink

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Yes, of course.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 8 has already been asked. Question 9, Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

9. What additional allocations will be made available to the Housing and Local Government portfolio during the current budget round to support the Welsh Government's Housing Support Grant? OAQ54868

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

In line with the priority this Government places on supporting the most vulnerable in our communities, and despite almost a decade of austerity, the Minister for Housing and Local Government is maintaining investment in the housing support grant next year at £170 million—sorry, £127 million.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. The housing support grant is one of the best lines of defence we have against the continued chaos caused by Tory austerity. The result of years of indifference from our UK Government about the impact of their welfare policies can be seen on our streets: shameful levels of rough-sleeping across the UK, not just in our cities, but in all of our communities.

Minister, councils in Wales use the housing support grant to protect the most vulnerable. If the March budget provides any additional funding to Wales, will you consider making more money available to the housing support grant?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Jack Sargeant recognises the importance of the housing support grant, as do I, in terms of it being one of the levers that we have in terms of preventing homelessness here in Wales. He's right that, despite being able to maintain budgets at existing levels, we unfortunately haven't been able to provide real-terms increases to every item in the budget. Pressures continue, of course, going into next year.

I think that our record in Wales does compare favourably with that across the border, where Supporting People was dehypothecated, leading to significant cuts in the funding, according to the National Audit Office. But, of course, when the budget is announced on 11 March, we will see then to what extent there is additional funding that does come forward to Wales, and, obviously, any changes will be made then in an early supplementary budget, should those changes be significant.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Minister, the majority of additional funding to deal with homelessness seems to be targeted at Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Wrexham. So, can I ask what additional money is going to be provided to support homelessness in rural local authorities in particular, for example Powys?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, Russell George is correct that there is specific funding that is going to Swansea, Newport, Cardiff and Wrexham, because those are real areas where there is significant rough-sleeping, and those local authorities do have significant pressure on them. But we absolutely recognise that homelessness doesn't just occur in cities and urban areas, it actually occurs across Wales, and that's one of the reasons why the local government and housing Minister has just launched a campaign that does set out that homelessness actually happens across Wales, and it can often be a hidden form of homelessness. So, she's particularly concerned about those people who are sofa surfing, for example.

So, there is support across Wales for homelessness—those homelessness budgets have been maintained at £17.9 million in 2021. And I'm sure that the Minister will be keen to provide an update on support within your particular area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next questions, therefore, are questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote human rights through its international relations strategy? OAQ54866

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The international strategy is underpinned by clear values and principles, including an emphasis on support for human rights. We have a long and proud tradition of being a welcoming nation to people of all cultures and countries and a commitment also to the United Nations sustainability goals.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Can I applaud the commitment shown by the Welsh Government and indeed the UK Government on human rights and championing those rights around the world? Having said that, I am a little concerned that the Welsh Government has been cosying up to the communist Vietnamese Government in recent years, particularly through the Wales-Vietnam education link. Now, indeed—[Interruption.] Indeed, the Welsh Government rolled out the red carpet for a visit by the Vietnamese education Minister last year, less than 12 months ago. As you will be aware, Minister, the Vietnamese regime is a police state, which is regularly accused of human rights violations, not least in relation to the minority Christian community there. [Interruption.] I think the education Minister should be educated in related to the rights of Christians in Vietnam, which are being violated on a regular basis. According to the charity Open Doors, Vietnam is one of the top 50 persecutors of Christians in the world, with those from ethnic minorities particularly hard hit, facing violent attacks, harassment, the tearing down of their places of worship and imprisonment. Can I ask, as the international relations Minister, what discussions you've had with Vietnam on its human rights record, particularly in relation to the Christian community there? And what action are you taking cross-Government to ensure that there's a joined-up approach in addressing these human rights issues with Ministers, such as the Vietnamese education Minister, when they visit in the future?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Darren. I'm disappointed, because I think we should be very proud of the fact that we are developing a very strong education relationship with Vietnam. The fact that we are helping them to improve their education systems, that we're encouraging more people from that country to come and study in Wales, that this is an up-and-coming country and that there are opportunities for us, therefore, to help to influence the—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Are you challenging them on their human rights record?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

—direction of the country, I think is a really important strategic partnership for us—

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Are you challenging them on their human rights record?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

—to consider.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can I just—? Darren, you have asked your question and you must give the Minister the opportunity to respond to the question. Minister.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think it is worth underlining that it's not just us that have a relationship with Vietnam, but also UK Government. The Tory UK Government have a very close relationship as well. I do think we have to acknowledge that international relations in the area of human rights is always potentially quite difficult, but you have to make some decisions that are difficult sometimes, and we have made in this instance a decision that it is in our constructive and our partnership interest to make sure that we work with Vietnam to help them in developing their education system.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Where I would agree with Darren is that all Governments—this Government, the UK Government, the European Union, all Governments—should, as appropriate, make sure that they are raising issues of human rights with any nation—any and all nations. But it's as appropriate, and part of that, I have to say, has to be to do with developing links where you can have those conversations as well.

What I would like to ask—it's an issue I've raised before, but I haven’t quite yet had the clarity that I'm seeking—is on, in future, wider international affairs, and particularly in future trade deals, where I do have a worry that we are going to see watered-down commitments, Darren, to human rights, because, in effect we've seen it, indeed, in the Vietnam agreements, where what was legally binding under the European Union's legally binding and legally enforceable human rights obligations are now parked into a form of words alongside it. So, could I seek clarification that the voice of the Welsh Government through the Minister will be made clear that we want to see binding human rights obligations on any future trade deals, whether with the USA, whether with Vietnam, whether with anybody? And that will need an understanding from the UK Government that they will force that issue.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, and I think it's probably worth underlining that, in the past, the Conservative manifesto wanted to update the Human Rights Act—they previously wanted to scrap it altogether and to replace it with a British bill of rights. I've got to tell you that I've got more confidence in the system that we have at the moment than any other system that they are likely to introduce, because I think that international benchmarking is really, really important. And if he wants to be in the situation where the kind of people that he is mixing with—. If he wants to walk away from the Human Rights Act, the people he will be mixing with, the only people in the European Council, are Belarus and Kazakhstan, and that's potentially the route that we are going down. That was certainly the perspective of the Conservative manifesto. So, let's be clear about who is the party that is looking to downgrade human rights.

Now, coming on to your question, I think first of all it's worth saying that human rights is commonly not something that is substantively provided for within trade agreements. What happens is they are referred, they are referenced, on to broader framework agreements, and what we in the Welsh Government would want to see is clearly a reference to those broader framework agreements that would cover human rights to make sure that there is a link between the trade policies and those broader human rights situations. I think it's also worth noting, however, that the UN sustainability goals have suggested that human rights are a prerequisite for sustainable development. So, to think that you can divorce them completely would probably also be wrong.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

2. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Education about promoting the use of the Welsh language through the education system? OAQ54854

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I meet regularly with the Minister for Education. We had another meeting this week to discuss aspects of Cymraeg 2050 relating to her portfolio, and, following the consultation on the Welsh in Education Strategic Plans (Wales) Regulations 2019 and the associated draft guidance that went out to consultation, we'll be holding a conference now in March to discuss planning and promoting Welsh in education.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I've been contacted by parents, and I'm continuing to be contacted by parents in increasing numbers, who are concerned that there are no discrete ALN classes in Welsh medium schools in my constituency, and they feel that their children are put at a disadvantage and are unable to access education in the language of their choice as a result. What discussions have you had around ensuring adequate provision of ALN education in discrete classes through the medium of Welsh in Cynon Valley, but also across Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Vikki. Just to let you know that the education Minister has offered to meet you to discuss this further, but just to let you know that within the new Welsh in education strategic plans there is a provision that demands that ALN is taken into account. So, that is something that has been strengthened. I know that this is something that Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council is aware of. They had a meeting in December. So, this is an issue that they understand needs to be addressed, but it is certainly something that would concern us, I think, to think that there wouldn't be that provision. Absolutely, ALN needs to be accessible through the medium of Welsh as it is through the medium of English.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I'm sure you will join with me in congratulating Ysgol y Preseli in my constituency. As you know, it's a Welsh-medium secondary school graded second in Wales, according to The Sunday Times school guide this year, for its excellent performance. It's important that other schools learn from Welsh-medium schools such as Ysgol y Preseli in terms of promoting the use of the Welsh language through the education system. So, can you tell us, in the discussions that you have had and are having with the education Minister, how you as a Government ensure that other schools can benefit from the excellent work that Ysgol y Preseli is doing in promoting the Welsh language?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. May I too congratulate Ysgol y Preseli, which has been developing over the years? I know that in the past they had a good reputation. They went down a bit, but they have gone up once more, and we're very, very pleased with the difference that they're making to the pupils in that area. Of course there's an opportunity to learn, and one of the things that we're doing is to ensure that these networks across the centres provide opportunities for people to learn from each other, in particular through the medium of Welsh. This certainly is something that is looked at in that area specifically.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you, Llywydd. During a question to the First Minister yesterday, I raised the case of an elderly Welsh-speaking man from Anglesey who's living with dementia. The fact that a health board that is supposed to be acting in accordance with the language standards is even considering providing care for this individual in England, where, of course, there would be no Welsh language service available, is unambiguous proof that the standards placed on the health board are deficient.

Now, under your own standards as they stand, the situation facing this gentleman from Anglesey is entirely legal and there is no legal safeguard for patients. Surely it should be an expectation on a health board to provide a service for vulnerable patients, such as dementia patients, in their first language, and it shouldn't fall to families, politicians and pressure groups to safeguard the human right of Welsh speakers to a service through the medium of their own language. Do you agree with the suggestion of the First Minister yesterday that there are fundamental deficiencies in the health standards and that they must be revisited as a matter of urgency?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, if I could add to what the First Minister said yesterday, it’s difficult for us to discuss personal matters regarding one individual, but it is important that we understand as well that there are clinical matters sometimes that mean that it is a requirement for people to leave our country. But I do agree with the First Minister when he said that there is a need for us to recognise that the rights of Welsh speakers to have their issues dealt with through the medium of Welsh, and their care through the medium of Welsh, is something that we see as something that’s fundamental and that’s what we should be offered in Wales.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

According to an e-mail that you sent to officials asking questions before passing the health standards—. It becomes apparent, in reading that e-mail, that you were entirely aware of the deficiencies of the health standards. And I quote—you ask this:

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

'So, I want to be clear, if a little 90-year-old lady from Gwynedd who speaks poor English goes to hospital and is about to have a complicated operation, she cannot legally ask for someone to explain to her in Welsh what is happening, and that what we are offering is that the health board makes plans so that they can set out to what extent they will be able to carry out clinical consultations in Welsh five years from now, which presumably could mean they still won't be able to.'

And you go on to say:

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

And you also say:

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

'I think this is quite a tough sell. Any ideas?'

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Isn't the truth of the matter that your Government's policy can't guarantee Welsh language services—even basic Welsh language services—for vulnerable patients today, and that you are entirely right in your own analysis that they won't be available in five years' time either, unless we change those health standards? As you said yourself, a situation like this is a tough sell for Welsh speakers.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I do think that there are differences across the country. I think if you look at somewhere such as Betsi, there is a commitment towards the Welsh language and it's something that is now being seen as something that is fundamental. They have to be aware of what the language requirements of the patients who come to see them are. And I do think there has been a change in the attitude within health departments that we have across Wales.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Well, I'm hugely disappointed by that response. We are talking about Betsi Cadwaladr health board in the case of the gentleman with dementia from Anglesey, as it happens. So, what you say is, simply, wrong.

Another problem that you identified in the discussion on the health standards, before they were passed, was the lack of coverage for workforce planning in the medical workforce through training. The advice of your officials at the time was that that would need to be dealt with through policy steps, and I agree. It's crucial that you do plan the workforce appropriately. Setting targets in order to ensure that you recruit an adequate number of candidates who are Welsh speakers on courses of that kind would ensure that the future workforce would be planned on the basis of the needs of the people of Wales.

So, can you confirm that your Government will do that? Because, in failing to do it, the danger is that we will be no nearer providing these services that are so crucial in terms of safety and quality of care for the people of Wales in their hour of need?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We are aware that there is a need to do more in terms of language planning, and that's why we've brought forward the 2050 project. That will start with the Government and will look at language planning within the Government, and then it will ensure that we are effective outside Government, ensuring that we're pushing some of those opportunities in terms of the public services, to ensure that they take on their responsibilities in a considerate way.

I also think that it's important to underline that we have asked Academi—they are committed to ensuring that leaders of the future within the Government are aware of their influence and of their responsibility towards the Welsh language in the way that they are going to lead in our public centres in the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr. Minister, you'll know that we're in the middle of the tv and film awards season around the world, and I'm sure you will want to join me in congratulating Aberystwyth's own Taron Egerton on his fantastic—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Hear, hear. [Laughter.]

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I thought this might be pleasing to you, Presiding Officer.

I congratulate him on his fantastic success so far. His talent is making people remember that Wales is renowned as a breeding ground for extraordinary success on the big screen, and I wish him all the best for his future career. Whilst he's a shining example of what we can achieve in the Welsh film and television industry; as a whole, Minister, I think it's fair to say that we're not quite reaching our full potential at the moment, especially when we compare ourselves to other countries of similar size.

New Zealand, for example, has a thriving film and tv industry that is built upon its attractions as a fantastic physical location—and that's a feat, obviously, we could also emulate. The industry there is worth around £0.5 billion a year to New Zealand. Now, I'm not saying we'll necessarily set our sights that high, but, at the moment, I think it's fair to say we've not done as well as we would have hoped in the last five years. What is your Government doing to promote Wales as a top location for the film industry now that the media investment budget is in abeyance?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Can I also offer my congratulations to Taron Egerton? We are very, very proud of him, and we look forward to the Oscars, where I'm sure we are hopeful that he will also be awarded. He was very helpful to us in the last Government, in helping us to promote Wales as a place to come and invest in relation to tv and film, back in November. So, it is a relationship that we're very proud to have. And of course, we must also underline the fact that we have two starring Welsh actors in the main roles in The Two Popes as well, which is a great film that I would recommend that you also look at.

I must say that I'm very aware of the fact that, actually, we do have a tremendous reputation now as a place where we can make quality tv and films. That's why, in terms of the international strategy, which we'll launch next week, one of the three sectors that we're hoping will really promote Wales, in terms of how we want to be perceived internationally, is tv and film. And if you look at the developments over the past 10 years, we now have about 50,000 people working in this industry, and that, I think, is a growth of about 50 per cent in the past 10 years. So, I think we're heading in the right direction, but we need to shout about it internationally, and that's certainly something I hope to be doing.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer, Minister, and I think everyone shares this ambition, but it's really what's the roadmap to get us there; because, if we look at the draft international strategy, it's very thin on what we're going to do to build on our past success to reach full potential in terms of what the transformation of the creative industries of tv and film, in particular, could achieve.

And, again, if you look at what tv programmes can do in terms of generating tourism, programmes like Game of Thrones have had a huge impact on the tourism of Croatia and Northern Ireland, for instance, and other areas. And in New Zealand, as I earlier referenced, a whole part of their tourist economy is now based on Tolkien and the success that's followed The Lord of the Rings production there.

I just wonder if we're going to get some real detail in the full strategy, because at the moment it does seem to be very, very thin. And this is clearly—I do grant you this—this is clearly an area where Wales can have a profound competitive advantage, and we should really move to take that full potential to fulfilment now.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The Deputy Minister is in charge of issues relating to the creative economy. What you will see is, shortly after the international strategy is launched, there will be a Creative Wales strategy that will be launched, and that will be the opportunity to put some more meat on the bone, which you were asking for. And that will go alongside the tourism strategy as well, so that's being refreshed. So, I think it's really important to see these three strategies together as an opportunity for us to shout. And of course, His Dark Materials is another example where Wales now has sold that series internationally, and there's an opportunity for us also to make sure that we bounce off not just how brilliant technically we are in terms of these film developments, but also our opportunity to show a bit of the landscape of Wales as well. That should hopefully encourage more tourism as well.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, if I could turn to domestic production, it's now been 27 years since a Welsh language film was nominated for an Oscar; Hedd Wyn, in 1993, and a very fine film it is. And of course, this can be a key part of our international strategy in portraying to a modern Wales the vital Welsh language culture that we do enjoy here. Now, during the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee's inquiry into this area, there was a perception that Welsh language films were commercially unviable, which made it hard for producers to secure financial support. There was also criticism about the bureaucracy involved and many people complaining about how frustrating that was, legally restrictive, and other requirements were described as onerous. But, I think the international strategy allows us really to capitalise on these sorts of things as well. And is there not scope for the Welsh Government to do much more to promote Welsh language film making for the international arthouse audience, which could have huge benefits for how people around the world perceive Wales? And indeed, that audience tends to contain many, many opinion formers and decision makers.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, that's absolutely right, and it was great to see Hedd Wyn being nominated in that situation for an Oscar. But, there were several examples before that. My first job was to sell animation for S4C and there were several occasions when S4C's animation production companies in Wales actually succeeded in those international arenas as well.

I think one of the things that we do need to do is to look at where were are uniquely placed in terms of tv and film, and an example of that is how we make back-to-back productions. So, if you think of some of the productions that S4C create, they do a Welsh version and an English version, and that is something that we think is worth exploring to see if other nations would like to look at how we do that.

This is something that I've discussed with S4C and with some other tv companies. I held a round-table recently with the heads of tv and film in Wales to discuss exactly this: what is it that, uniquely, Wales can offer in this space? So, one of the things I've been trying to do is really trying to hone what is the message when we are selling tv and film to the world? What makes us unique? What makes us different? And certainly, that back-to-back production is something that came across.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

3. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's strategy to attract events to Wales? OAQ54870

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We proactively work with partners in Wales, the UK and internationally to identify and pursue long-term hosting targets for attracting major cultural, sporting and business events to all parts of Wales. In addition, we support the establishment, growth and development of a wide range of home-grown events in Wales.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Minister. In December last year, the new International Convention Centre Wales in Newport hosted the BBC Welsh sports personality of the year. It was a tremendous success and I was extremely pleased to see the peerless Alun Wyn Jones win the top prize.

Following this, I've written to the BBC and the ICC urging them to consider the venue for the UK sports personality of the year. Three of the last 13 UK sports personalities have been Welsh, yet the event has never been hosted in Wales, the only country in the United Kingdom not to. So, now is the time to correct this.

Newport, along with the ICC, is the perfect place to host the UK BBC sports personality of the year, and offers huge potential for similar events and the benefits that they bring. Please could you add your support and your cajoling to bring this event to Newport and Wales?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

What a brilliant idea. That's certainly something that I'd like to follow up on. I have regular meetings with the Celtic Manor hotel and the people responsible for the ICC, and that's certainly a great idea that I'll pursue with vigour. Thank you.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, you may remember that I asked you in November last year about maximising the benefit for Wales of the 2022 Commonwealth Games being held in Birmingham. Then, you confirmed that you had met the games' organisers to see whether some of the teams competing could be based here in Wales. In view of your answer, could you say whether you have made some progress on this to attract some of the sporting events themselves to be facilitated in Wales, or is there still a possibility of this happening? Your update on this issue will be highly appreciated by our hospitality sector in Wales.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. Well, I haven't had a recent meeting with the Commonwealth Games people, but I'll attempt to see if I can find out if they have made any progress in trying to get teams to base themselves here in Wales. So, this is something that we're obviously very interested in progressing, because we want to get as much focus as we can during that time on Wales.

I'm aware that the Urdd Eisteddfod, for example, have now got a strategic alignment with the Welsh team in terms of promoting Wales, and they're using the Urdd mascot as the method to really promote Wales during those Commonwealth Games. So, I'll pursue that and see if we've got any further in tempting people to base themselves here.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I'd like to push the Minister on that, if I can, about any bid in the future to host the Commonwealth Games and whether you've actually learnt or spoken to the Scottish Government about the benefits that came to Scotland, not just in terms of sports, but also the cultural benefits and public health benefits that that country received after hosting the Commonwealth Games. Obviously, we were disappointed alongside millions—well, millions internationally—of sports fans when the plans to try to host fell through. The bids for 2026 and 2030 have been decided simultaneously, but can you commit to putting work in place now to pave the way for us to be able to bid for the 2034 games?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think 2034 is quite a long time frame, it's quite a long horizon for us to be working towards. It's got to be made clear that this has got to be balanced out against other initiatives that are also in play. For example, the new Prime Minister has said that he's very keen to host the football world cup. There are opportunities and we just have to work out—we can't do everything—which one of these we want to plump for. Of course, they're expensive, to host these events, but there are real opportunities as well. To get the attention of the world on us is an opportunity that we shouldn't miss. But I think 2034 is probably too far away in terms of the horizon scanning that we're doing.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

One of the advantages of the international convention centre and Jayne's excellent proposal is its location on the east side of Newport at Celtic Manor, so that people coming to events there from England by road don't need to travel through the Brynglas tunnels. Wouldn't a wider strategy of events coming to Wales, for instance to Cardiff, and making it possible for more people to get to them without being stuck in very long delays, as, again, has happened over the Christmas and new year period and indeed today, be to build an M4 relief road?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I know that the events people at the ICC work very, very closely with Cardiff council and understand that, actually, if they do have a major event and they don't have the capacity, even with the Celtic Manor and the other hotels that they own nearby, that actually, they need to share the prosperity and they're anxious to share the prosperity. The ICC, I think, is a really unique development for Wales. There's a real opportunity for us to bring people to Wales to business events—we had the space conference held there as one of the opening events, which was a great success. But what happens with business events is that people come back as visitors. Very often, they're high net worth individuals who are anxious, then, to come and spend some money in Wales. That's certainly something we're interested in. You'll have seen recently that we are very proud to see that we will be hosting a major golf event in that area in the near future as well.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on the values underpinning the Welsh Government's international relations strategy? OAQ54873

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The international strategy will be based upon a clear set of values as outlined in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. At its heart, it will promote the three themes of creativity, sustainability and technology, with the core value of promoting Wales as a globally responsible nation.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

I note your comments to the first international trade dinner of the South Wales Chamber of Commerce just before Christmas. During your speech, you mentioned the focus on data mining and cyber security, trumpeting Wales being the largest cluster for cyber companies in the UK. Now, jobs, particularly in the most deprived parts of our country, are much needed and I recognise that cyber security is a fast-growing sector that will play an increasingly important role in the years to come. But, what I find hard to accept is the Welsh Government funding of cyber security initiatives run by companies involved in the arms trade. Take the £20 million cyber centre that you've established with the French arms manufacturer Thales. This arrangement effectively makes the Government an investor in a company that produces arms for despotic regimes like Saudi Arabia. Thales is also believed to be supplying components for Russian tanks. Do you agree that we should have an ethical responsibility to invest in companies not involved in the business of producing weapons designed to maim and kill? How does that fit in with the Government's policies for well-being of future generations? And if you don't agree that we should have an ethical responsibility, can you explain to this Senedd why not?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I'm not going to back away from our commitment to support the cyber sector in Wales. It is something that I think we should be really proud of, and the fact that we're developing the cyber centre in Ebbw Vale, an area of massive deprivation, where there is a commitment to help develop an education facility there, there have been events to encourage women, in particular, to enter into the cyber security sector. I think this is something we should be really proud of, and there is, of course, a danger and there's a possibility that there's a link between defence and other areas, but I think you've got to understand that, also, we all need cyber security. We need it for our computers here. Factories need it. You need it to get on an aeroplane. It is something that permeates every aspect of our society, and if you think you can divorce one from the other, I think it's really important that we understand the importance of cyber security for almost every aspect of our lives.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Presiding Officer, my question's a little less bellicose. [Laughter.] If I can turn to Susie Ventris-Field, the chief executive of the Welsh Centre for International Affairs, she's pointed out the wonderful civic record we have in Wales in promoting international peace and solidarity. She cites examples like the message of peace and goodwill from the young people of Wales, which, in the next couple of years, will reach its centenary; the peace appeal that took place in 1924, where 40 per cent of Welsh women signed a petition to the women of America so that they would lobby the American president to join the League of Nations, and that could have led to very different outcomes; and long-standing links between Wales and Somaliland, Uganda, Lesotho and other places; and organisations like the Wales anti-apartheid movement. Clearly, non-governmental organisations and the civic sector in general have played a huge amount informally in our international relations strategy, so, now, in your formal strategy, how will you be involving this vital sector in fulfilling your strategy and developing it in the future?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. Well, we have had long conversations with the sector, they've certainly been very involved in helping us to develop the strategy, and I do think we should be proud of our record in terms of promoting peace from Wales. As you say, the Urdd's message to the world annually is something that I think we should be really proud of and something that we should be celebrating, certainly when they celebrate that centenary in 2021.

In terms of the other things that we're anxious to develop, Llangollen international festival—we mustn't forget that was initially established with very much a peace message involved with it. That is something I know the First Minister's very keen to see if we can reinvigorate, and we've been speaking to the organisers there to see if that can be put more centre stage once again.

I know also that Mererid Hopwood has made great strides in developing the peace academy now, working with various universities throughout Wales to see what can be done in that space. So, I think there are some really interesting developments here that we could be building on in terms of the kind of messages we will be giving alongside our international strategy.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on levels of expenditure on promoting the Welsh language in the draft budget? OAQ54886

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much. The 2020-21 draft budget includes over £37 million for the Welsh language. Of this, around £13 million is directly related to promotion activities. Our grant partners play an important role in providing opportunities for people to use the language. We’re pleased to continue to fund 27 partners and 52 papurau bro.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that list. The finance Minister, during the debate on the draft budget yesterday, stated that the budget for the Welsh language wasn't going to be cut. So, just for the sake of clarity, can you confirm for us that there will be an inflationary increase in that budget? Otherwise, it is a real-terms cut, so I just wanted confirmation that there is going to be an increase in line with inflation for your budget for the Welsh language.

I also understand that this morning you suggested in the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee that you may be required to cut the Welsh for Adults budget in order to direct some of that funding to mitigating the impacts of Brexit. Can you confirm whether that is something that you are truly considering, and perhaps explain why you target Welsh for Adults particularly? Which other elements of your budget will be cut for that reason?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I think it’s important that people understand that Welsh is mainstreamed across Government. The fact is that we haven’t seen cuts in the funding for the Welsh language. What has happened is that some of the expenditure that was in the budget for the education lines has moved to another line, and that is why, perhaps, there was some confusion as to whether cuts had been introduced.

We have found an additional £50,000 to pay for the staffing costs of the Welsh Language Commissioner, and we have also provided capital funding of £0.38 million to the commissioner so that he can have a new computer system. What we’re doing—in terms of looking at the budget in general, one of the things I did was to ask those who assist me, in terms of ensuring that we’re on the right track, to look at the direction and whether we’re doing the right things in achieving that aim of a million speakers. What was clear was that we were spending a lot more than half of the budget that I have on Welsh for Adults. So, if we’re doing that, we have to ensure that the money is spent correctly and ensure that we have value for money. So, for me, what’s important is that we are consistently looking at whether we’re spending in the right places.

I have to say completely clearly that I’m very pleased with the work that the National Centre for Learning Welsh is doing. About 12,000 people are learning through the medium of Welsh. We are giving about £13 million to the centre, so it is quite a large proportion of my budget. That’s why I just want to scrutinise in more detail how that is being spent.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, perhaps I could try to respond to that question. Just to avoid a future of buck-passing on this issue, can you be clear about the changes to the budget of the Welsh Language Commissioner that can be attributed directly to his new promotional responsibilities? What funding will be retained by the Welsh Government to cover its promotional responsibilities? Because I would want to keep a close eye on this.

Could you also tell us whether there will be an increase in local authority budgets and health budgets? Will that include funding for improving their compliance with standards, including any responsibilities for promoting the Welsh language, or will they be able to access funds from the Welsh language main expenditure group in order to do that?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, we have ensured that we are co-operating better with the language commissioner. We have a memorandum of understanding so that we know who’s doing what, so that we’re not duplicating the work that we’re doing as a Government and the work that he is doing as commissioner. I do think that savings can be made, therefore, in that area, because we’re not duplicating work.

In terms of what’s happening in the field of health, one of the things that we have been doing is helping people to train and to learn through the medium of Welsh. That budget currently is coming from us for health. We do hope that, ultimately, the department itself will take responsibility for training people through the medium of Welsh. The same is true in relation to training teachers to teach young people. So, currently, that does come under the national centre and we’re funding that, but I hope that in the long term that will be incorporated into the departments themselves.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

6. What strategy is the Welsh Government deploying to increase the number of Welsh-speaking early years practitioners? OAQ54879

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The early years sector is vital to our aim of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers. We're working on programmes such as Progress for Success and Camau to develop Welsh language skills within the current workforce and ensuring that those joining the sector can use the language confidently.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you. Minister, you'll be fully aware that there is increasing demand for Welsh-medium education at primary and secondary level, and, in light of that rising trend, I wondered what consideration the Government has given to making a further leap in bilingualism amongst monolingual English-speaking communities by ensuring that the expanded childcare offer, which was primarily in the medium of Welsh, would give three and four-year-olds the ability to absorb bilingualism in the way that the cat laps up a saucer of milk. It seems to me that this is a missed opportunity within this very welcome offer of childcare to families and the cost of caring for young children, as well as to those children. So, given that in a place like Cardiff the early years practitioners are predominantly drawn from English-speaking communities, I wondered what strategy could be employed to rapidly increase the number of people who are excellent early years practitioners as well as Welsh-medium speakers.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

So, we do have to be aware that we are very keen to reach this target, but to make that work we have to make sure that we have the right number of people in place who can actually teach. So, that's why we have 350 practitioners who will benefit from this Camau programme. What that is is free access to Welsh language training by childcare and play practitioners. The fact is that we now have this childcare offer and about 30 per cent of that childcare offer is through the medium of Welsh. So, that is really important, that people understand that there's an opportunity there. We've also got Mudiad Meithrin. They run a programme called Croesi'r Bont and this is an immersion system to make sure that people have the skills in childcare development. There's a level 3 diploma that has been developed with Mudiad Meithrin, so people are going through that system. And then, on top of that, our officials are working with the Urdd, and they've got a lot of experience of apprentices and so we're trying to get them to take on more apprentices through the medium of Welsh to look specifically at childcare.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the distribution of lottery funding within Wales? OAQ54871

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you, Dawn. The National Lottery celebrated its twenty-fifth anniversary last year. Since 1994 National Lottery players have supported around 50,000 projects across Wales with nearly £1.75 billion of investment. This obviously has had a transformational effect on funding for arts, sport, heritage, charitable causes and community projects throughout Wales.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you for that response, Deputy Minister. I'd see first hand the value of lottery funding within my constituency, particularly when I meet community groups and other organisations that are local beneficiaries. However, I'm keen that all efforts are maximised to secure even more funding for our more disadvantaged communities. So, can you tell me what more could be done through your role in relation to the distribution of lottery funding to help meet the needs specifically of communities like Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, I'm pleased to confirm that the lottery spending in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, as you know, amounts to over £13 million over the period of that spend and 70 projects have been completed or are currently in delivery. And you'll be aware, because we've visited some of these projects together, of the important work that has been done and is still being developed at the Cyfarthfa Castle Museum and Art Gallery, which was awarded an audiovisual project in January 2018. Now, as far as Cyfarthfa Park is concerned, the Cyfarthfa Park Rediscovered project application, submitted by Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, is still open to further discussion—I can confirm this—between the borough council and the lottery. And I do hope that a way will be found to deliver this, because, clearly, community benefit is one of the tests of the effectiveness of lottery spend. I will continue to ensure, in my discussion with the National Lottery in Wales—I meet the chair and the chief executive on a very regular basis, and I'll make sure that these aspects are fully discussed at our next meeting.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

8. What plans does the Welsh Government have to build on the legacy of major sporting events held in Wales? OAQ54882

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We're committed to building on Wales's success in hosting major events and work proactively with event owners from Wales, the UK and internationally to maximise the wider benefits of events, sporting, cultural or business, to communities across Wales.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, as you'll be aware, over recent years, south Pembrokeshire and Tenby in particular have become synonymous in the triathlon community with hosting the Ironman Wales event—one of the toughest sporting challenges in the Ironman calendar. Every September, thousands of people descend on the area to compete in the competition, which offers qualification slots for the world championship event in Hawaii. This event only takes place over one weekend of the year, but attracts competitors from all over the world. What efforts are the Welsh Government undertaking to harness the international attention that the area receives every September and to ensure that the legacy of this event is realised throughout the year and for the next generation of potential local Ironmen and women?

And, Minister, if I may, can I ask you to join with me in congratulating, when we talk about the next generation of potential Ironmen and Ironwomen, my constituent Cameron Tallis? Cameron lives in Pembroke, he goes to Pembrokeshire College, and, at 18 years and four days, in 2019 was the youngest ever Ironman Wales.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I would like to congratulate him. I just think it's remarkable that anyone can get anywhere near this. This is phenomenal in terms of the scope of what they have to achieve. My cousin did it this year and it was quite incredible, the stamina that you need to do it, and they start at some ridiculous time of the morning as well. So, congratulations to anyone who gets anywhere near this. I'm sure we've all got new year's resolutions, but this isn't one of mine. [Laughter.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 9 [OAQ54860] was withdrawn. Question 10—Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

10. Will the Minister make a statement on the promotion of tourism attractions in South Wales West? OAQ54874

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much for the question. South-west Wales is an outstanding visitor destination. Welsh Government continually invests to improve the quality of the local offer and is committed to continuing to grow tourism to this area and to promote tourism there and throughout Wales.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Minister, as Wales has reached the Euros this year again, this is an excellent opportunity to promote Wales to tourists—I hope that you'd agree. Businesses in my region, in South Wales West, are already asking what the Welsh Government is doing to use this important event to promote our excellent attractions, not only in that area but across Wales. Can you outline the work of the Government on this and suggest ways that local businesses can be part of any marketing campaign while Wales is winning a football championship?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much for that comment. I can assure you that I will be discussing this issue specifically with the Football Association of Wales and with Sport Wales in order to see how we can particularly develop the community aspects related to this, because one of the successes that emerges from the high profile of international teams, in rugby and in other sports too—and in this particular case it's football, of course—is that community football and interest in football can develop and increase. I can assure you that that will be on the agenda for discussion, so that Welsh Government funding for the football association and Sport Wales will also have an impact on community interest, and will excite further community interest, including in women's football, which is a development that I've particularly enjoyed during my period as Minister.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 11—Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

11. Will the Minister make a statement on investing in community 3G football resources? OAQ54851

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much for that comment. We have invested substantially already through Sport Wales, which is leading on our investment in 3G football and artificial pitches. They've invested £3.731 million in the collaborative sports facilities group, which includes the Football Association of Wales Trust, the Welsh Rugby Union and Hockey Wales. This has helped the FAW Trust in establishing 77 3G football pitches in Wales, with a target of 100 by 2024.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much for that response. I would encourage you to invest further and to invest specifically in Ynys Môn. Referring to the earlier question on international football, well, there’ll be no international football without successful grass-roots football in our towns and villages across Wales. I look forward to following the Wales team to Azerbaijan later this year, but we won't be able to do that in coming years unless we invest in the grass roots.

There's a wonderful 3G facility in Llangefni and there's going to be investment in upgrading facilities in Menai Bridge. We truly need new 3G pitches in Holyhead and Amlwch, and I've held meetings already with representatives of those communities, who are willing to do whatever is necessary to bring that investment in. The local authority has a plan to invest over the next few years, but we need that investment now. Can I ask for a commitment from the Government to work with me and with others and with the council and community groups, community interest groups, on Anglesey to ensure that we see seek all means possible of drawing the funding in to bring these resources that are so crucial not only for the future of the beautiful game but for the health of our nation too?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Naturally, I’m going to agree with that. I had the opportunity of opening a new pitch in Parc Eirias in the county that I live in, and I know how important this resource is for all sorts of sporting activities where these pitches are suitable. So, what I will do is convey what has been said here today to Sport Wales and ask for a further report on the progress that they're making in Ynys Môn in particular. I accept that it’s not possible to have international football in Wales unless it includes Anglesey as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Minister and the Deputy Minister for answering all of their questions this afternoon.

3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next questions are to the Assembly Commission. The first question is from Jack Sargeant and is to be answered by Joyce Watson. Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

1. Will the Commission make a statement on participation in the White Ribbon accreditation scheme? OAQ54867

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that question, and the Commission does actively support the White Ribbon Day every year by allowing the estate to be used for an event that I have managed since 2007. That is advertised across the estate. There are notices posted on Member and staff intranets, and money is raised now through the sale of the white ribbons in Tŷ Hywel and in the Senedd, and that is not to mention that, since 2007, many Members here have actively campaigned and championed the White Ribbon cause.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for that response, and I commend you for your hard work over the many years, since 2007—it really has been instrumental in raising the profile of the campaign here in Wales, and I was privileged to speak at your event you helped manage at the Senedd just last year. As you will know, as Members will know, following Dad's tragic passing, I have been committed to continuing his hard work to support this very important campaign, so to me it seems logical that our next step is for this institution, this Senedd, to follow in the footsteps of councils like my own in Flintshire and Connah's Quay Town Council and become fully accredited. So, will the Commission meet with me and the White Ribbon campaign to make sure this happens in the future? Diolch.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We have committed to pursue this in the coming year, because last year the Commission has been focused on the overall workplace dignity and respect, and that includes well-being, race and gender equality as some of those items, and that work is being reviewed. I have met with the new chief executive officer of White Ribbon—I did in November—and I did discuss their accreditation scheme. And from that discussion I found that they are actually reviewing that scheme. Since we are also reviewing our scheme, it seemed to make some sense to wait until next year, once that review has been done, and we're also able to assess the schemes that we've got to put the two together and move forward positively next year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Commissioner.

4. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The topical questions are next. The first question is for the Minister for Economy and Transport, and this is to be asked by David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

1. Following the comments made by the chairman of the Tata Sons group, what actions are the Welsh Government taking to ensure the future of Welsh steel making at Port Talbot? 374

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Dai Rees for his question and assure him that we will continue to engage with Tata Steel at every level to discuss how we can support the long-term sustainability of steel plants in Wales, including, of course, the Port Talbot site?

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can I thank the Minister for his answer? On Sunday, in The Sunday Times, the interview published with Mr Natarajan Chandrasekaran—who is the chair of Tata Sons, which is the parent company of Tata Steel—clearly indicated that effectively they were no longer going to look at supporting losses in steel making outside of India. His comments were, 'Why should India keep funding such losses?' This is not new to the workforce, I'm assuming. Clearly, I've met with the unions, I've met with the management, and they're clearly understanding that the transformation programme was about creating sustainability so that their business can be self-sustaining in the future.

However, this comes as another shock to the workforce, making it quite clear to them the challenges ahead following the announcement before Christmas of 1,000 job losses in the UK through Tata. It creates more uncertainty in the workforce. The workforce have done as much as they can, effectively. They are doing everything possible to ensure productivity is improved. They are doing everything possible to make the high-end products.

It is now time, perhaps, for the UK Government to take the decision as to whether it wants a steel-making industry in the UK. I also appreciate the Welsh Government's actions to date. You've been supportive of the Welsh steel industry. But, there now comes a point when you've got to make strong recommendations and calls to the UK Government. Will you now actually call upon the UK Government, whether it's in writing or go and visit them, including the Prime Minister, to reinitiate the steel council, to get this discussion agenda going so that we can talk about the future of UK steel to get the steel sector deal agreed with the Secretary of State?

Perhaps invite the Secretary of State down to have discussions in the Port Talbot works itself, so we can have her seeing, at the position, what the importance is of steel to the economy of Wales. And perhaps yourself could go to India and meet Mr Chandrasekaran to discuss how Tata's future in Wales will be going ahead, because this is a crucial industry, not just for my communities but to many communities across Wales. Therefore, we need to ensure that we can protect steel, but the levers, unfortunately, are not with you—most of them—they are with the UK Government, and we've got to get them to do something.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'd agree entirely with what Dai Rees has said. I don't think many countries anywhere on this planet would be willing to give up their steel-making abilities. I would urge the UK Government to demonstrate as soon as possible that it is not willing to give up on Britain's steel-making capabilities either. The interview, as Dai Rees has said, contained a statement that is entirely consistent with previous statements from Tata Steel, including those contained within the transformation plan documents.

Now, I think it's fair to say that there are huge challenges and a vast range of challenges that the European steel-making community face. But, here in the UK, the UK Government can implement three actions, more or less immediately, to address the pressures that Tata in the UK and many, many other steel-making and high-intensity-energy companies face.

First of all, they must take action on high and volatile energy prices, as Dai Rees has identified. Secondly, they must deliver on the steel sector deal. And thirdly, as I have long been calling for, they must convene the cancelled UK steel round-table meeting.

Only on Monday of this week, I met with UK Government Ministers and again pressed home the need for them to take immediate action on those high energy prices that are making steel making in the UK unproductive, and are also affecting the competitiveness of the base here in the UK. They must take action soon because, as that interview has probably demonstrated to many readers, patience is running out with the way that the UK Government is not taking action.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can I agree with some of what David Rees has said in terms of the disappointing comments from the chairman? That is obviously going to be worrying for the 4,000-strong workforce at Tata Steel.

Clearly, there are roles here for both the Welsh Government and the UK Government; both Governments have levers at their disposal. I wonder if the Minister would welcome the measures that the UK Government has taken to compensate energy-intensive manufacturers for the costs of renewables and climate change policy costs.

Would the Minister also agree with me that the issue with the steel industry is not limited to one thing, it's not limited to just electricity, there are a number of issues, the main one being the low international steel price caused by the global overcapacity? There is the issue of business rates as well, and I wondered if the Minister could update us on whether there's any further action that he can take in terms of alleviating business rates for the industry.

Last year, I think it was either in a statement or in a question like this, you talked about how Tata's announcement may affect the skilled workers at Port Talbot and other Welsh sites. You mentioned that it would be a couple of months before an analysis could take place on a function-by-function basis—I think those were their words. A couple of months later, I do wonder if you have received any update from them, or if not, when you might expect that might be.

Turning to what else the Welsh Government can do, since November, when I asked the question—it mentioned something about business rates again. But, what else do you think, besides business rates, that the Welsh Government can do to help the industry be structurally competitive here in Wales?

We are on the other side of the general election, and now that Brexit is going to happen, I wonder what discussions you've had with the new UK Government—I appreciate that time has been limited since that Government's been in place—on revisiting the competition concerns that were expressed by the European Commission regarding the proposed merger.

Also, in a post-Brexit world, some would argue that there's some flexibility over the current EU emissions regulations, and I wonder what the Welsh Government's view is on providing additional flexibility over emissions regulations for the steel industry, also taking into account, of course, the Welsh Government's declaration of a climate change emergency. I wonder if you've got a gauge, really, on your thinking on that.

And finally, what has the Welsh Government done to update public procurement guidance in the Welsh Government's departments so that any environmental factors can be taken into account when the Welsh Government procures steel?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Russell George for his questions? Whilst I do acknowledge that some action has been taken by UK Government, according to industry itself, that action is insufficient, whether it be in the form of the fund that's been established for high-intensity-energy companies, or the green steel initiative. I think what's absolutely vital is that it listens to the sector at a reconvened round table and takes action based on what they say, what those businesses say is needed in the UK. Based on what I hear consistently, the single biggest issue that they face concerns the volatile and often excessively high energy prices.

I'm expecting feedback next month on the roles that are to be affected by Tata's announcement before Christmas. If I receive any information before February, I will of course update Members accordingly.

Other areas of support beyond, perhaps, business rates—which is an issue that my colleague the finance Minister will give great attention to—we are, of course, considering further support for research and development opportunities to ensure that new and emerging technologies are exploited here and that new products can be manufactured here in Wales and the steel for them can be produced at Port Talbot. In all likelihood, there will be no revisiting of the merger by Tata, and therefore revisiting the decision of the EU Commission is highly unlikely. However, during the course of discussions that I'll be having with Tata in the coming weeks, this is an issue that I'll be raising with them.

In terms of emissions, there is an absolute need to reduce carbon emissions across Wales and around the world, and that's why we have been investing in improved power-plant structures within the Port Talbot site and why we, through the calls to action in the economic action plan, are investing in the decarbonisation of industry, and manufacturing in particular. I would urge UK Government to assist in this regard by making sure that the UK industrial strategy and the various challenges that it supports benefits Wales as much as it benefits other parts of the UK

Finally, on procurement, and the incredibly important matter that the Member raises, he will be aware that, in January of last year, the Cabinet Secretary for finance announced the publication of a procurement advice notice supporting the sourcing and procurement of sustainable steel in construction and infrastructure projects in Wales. In addition, since its launch, Value Wales has been promoting the benefits of signing the steel charter—Welsh Government was the first signatory of the steel charter—to local authorities across Wales, through direct contact and through group sessions, both in the north and in the south.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Minister, the futures of the sites in Port Talbot and Shotton are linked through the production chain, and I stand solidly by my colleague David Rees in supporting the workforce at Port Talbot and the steelworkers right across Wales. This Welsh Labour Government has always supported the steel industry, and once again we have to show how important it is to Wales. Now, key to that demonstration is to continue to support and fund the training of the next generation of steelworkers, whilst upskilling the current workforce. This would send a clear message that Wales is committed to the future of its steel industry. Will you pledge to continue that funding and support? Also, will you use your time today, Minister, to put on the record your frustrations with the UK Conservative Government in Westminster, who have completely failed to support the industry over the years? My constituents have seen it more than anyone, back over 20 years ago. Will you call on them to follow your lead in the Welsh Government and come back to the table and demonstrate the support that is finally needed to save our steel?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Jack Sargeant for his questions and his contribution? The UK Government has been making very recent soundings that would suggest it is willing to be more interventionist than it has been since 2010. I would urge them to use steel and the need to intervene in what's happening to the UK steel industry to demonstrate that willingness to be more proactive to save valuable, highly skilled, well-paid jobs. The First Minister and I will together be visiting Tata in Shotton in the coming weeks. I'm looking forward to receiving the Member there, speaking with management, with unions, and with the workforce, and in particular discussing opportunities for the site. Of course, there's the potential for a Heathrow logistics hub at Tata in Shotton, which could bring huge opportunities to the area. But, I'm keen also to support the role that Welsh Government could offer in terms of skills training. We've already put on the table and utilised £11.7 million for skills training at Tata across its sites, and that has made a great difference to the life chances of people employed in the company. I'm keen to make sure that we are maximising opportunities for people to reskill and to upskill accordingly.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

These comments from the head of Tata clearly are very worrying. I'd just like to briefly reiterate one of the comments made by David Rees. You'll know that I've been calling for an industry summit for Wales. The Member for Aberavon emphasised now the need to bring the UK steel industry players and key stakeholders together at the highest level and, whether that's a steel council or the kind of summit I've been talking about, these aren't talking shops. These are about emphasising the importance of these sectors and the need for urgent action. Will Welsh Government specifically demand now the reconvening of that council with a seat for Welsh Government around that table in order to make the case always about the importance of the steel industry to Wales? It's not just about energy, of course, but we do need cheap energy for steel. We need cheap, clean energy for steel. We need to clean up the steel industry, and it's clear that we're running out of time.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I be absolutely clear with Members? We have made repeated calls for the convening of a UK steel council meeting. I wrote to the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy on 25 November urging her urgently to reconvene the cancelled UK steel round-table meeting that had been granted following my urgent requests earlier in the autumn. There have been phone calls with the Secretary of State as well, in which I have pressed the case for bringing together key industry leaders to ensure that we are exploring all opportunities to improve the resilience of the sector in the UK. I would repeat today there is an absolute urgent need to reconvene the UK steel council; we have to ensure that the right people are around the table to discuss the actions that could be taken by Governments at every level across the UK to help the industry.

And the Member is right. There is a need, I think, to convene industry leaders more widely as well to discuss the future of manufacturing in Wales, which is why, before Christmas, I agreed to host a manufacturing summit. That will take place this winter at the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre in Broughton. It's also why, before Christmas, I hosted an automotive summit concerning the future of the auto industry in Wales, which proved to be incredibly productive. And we will ensure that we stretch every sinew to save the steel industry, and manufacturing more generally in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, of course, in Newport, we have the Llanwern site, which is integrated with Port Talbot. As Dai Rees and Jack Sargeant have already said, these Tata operations are very much seen as a whole. So, we have a great deal of concern in terms of the jobs at Llanwern, and also, of course, at the moment, at the Orb works. The plant is mothballed, with potential buyers still in talks with Tata as to the possible future use of that plant.

You talked about the UK Government signalling a more interventionist approach now. There is such a strong case, I think, for an electric vehicle industry in the UK, with the Orb steelworks supplying the electric steel for such an operation, where we could gain real advantages in terms of what is sure to be a big, big growth industry for the future. An interventionist approach by the UK Government would understand that; would make sure that the necessary support is given to the potential buyers and Tata Steel, working with Welsh Government and the trade unions, so that that viable, promising future would be realised. So, will you, as well as stating the case more generally, as Members have called for already today, Minister, make sure that the Orb works, and the situation there, as well as Llanwern, are at the forefront of your discussions with Tata, with the UK Government, with the trade unions, and all other players in these matters?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I thank John Griffiths for his questions and his contribution, and assure him that Orb is indeed at the forefront of our communications with Tata, and with the UK Government as well. I think it's absolutely essential that if they are to intervene, they won't just intervene with warm words, but with hard cash. And it wouldn't take, in the great scheme of things, a vast sum of money from the UK Government, through the industrial challenge fund, for Orb, to provide it with a future, particularly with regard to the manufacturing of electric vehicles. And, at the moment, as John Griffiths is aware, Orb doesn't currently make the advanced steels used for electric vehicles, but the Syndex proposal outlines the work that would be required in order to move the site to making non-grain-oriented steels, in addition to grain-oriented steels.

Now, we visited, together with the First Minister, and with Jayne Bryant, the Orb facility back in mid-November. We met with the trade unions' representatives; we met with the workforce, and we discussed the opportunities for the site, which are very, very real. I'm pleased to say that Tata will continue to discuss with potential buyers any opportunity to ensure that there is continued manufacturing at the site, and we will do all we can to ensure that those talks come to a fruitful end.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister. And now a question to the Minister for health, and that question is to be asked by Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

2. What action has the Welsh Government taken following the decision of Hywel Dda University Health Board to cancel in-patient operations on Monday 6 January 2020 at Bronglais, Glangwili, Prince Philip and Withybush hospitals? 375

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you. I'll just start by reiterating my thanks, together with those offered by the First Minister yesterday, to our staff right across the health and social care system in a period of truly exceptional pressure. Every winter provides difficulties, but we have seen exceptional pressures across our system at the end of the festive period and into the start of January. Without their dedication, we would not be able to provide the level of care that is still being provided across Wales.

The decision to postpone inpatient operations within Hywel Dda was an operational, clinical decision made by the health board to ensure that patient safety was not compromised. My officials have been in regular communication with the health board to ensure that they're implementing all necessary actions to enable them to de-escalate as quickly and as safely as possible.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Minister for his answer. And, of course, I'm sure we would all agree with his comments about the excellent work that the staff are undertaking under very difficult circumstances. But I wonder how he would respond to the Royal College of Nursing's call to him yesterday to get back in the room, and to start talking about the extent of these pressures. I wonder how he would respond to Dr Philip Banfield, from BMA Cymru, saying— and I quote—that they are really concerned about the impact of current workload and workforce pressures on the NHS staff. He goes on to say that there is seriously a real chance of lives being needlessly lost.

I'd also be interested to know what the Minister would have to say to my constituents, and those of others here, who have had their operations postponed. We know—and I should be clear, Llywydd: I'm not criticising the decision that the health board has made; if the services are not safe, they didn't have a choice. But I wonder if the Minister would wish to join with me in expressing his regret to patients that their operations—some of which they've been waiting for for a very long time, some of them are in very severe pain—have had to be postponed. I'd be grateful if the Minister can let us know what the situation is with regard to Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, because my understanding is that they've postponed some planned operations today. It's also been suggested to me that, in fact, Betsi Cadwaladr has not got an agreed plan with the Welsh Government to deal with winter pressures. And I wonder if the Minister can tell us whether that is or is not the case, and whether, in fact, they have got their share of the additional resources that he has put in.

The Minister talks about exceptional pressures, and I would once again put it to the Minister that winter comes every year, so does norovirus, so does the flu. These things are entirely predictable. The First Minister, questioned on these matters yesterday, described the arrangements in place with the health board as 'resilient'. Well, I would like to suggest that he comes to the Hywel Dda health board area, and explains that to my constituents, because this doesn't look like a set of resilient or acceptable arrangements to me. And, most importantly, perhaps, Llywydd, what assurances can the Minister give us that the kind of all-systems approach that the BMA are asking for—? We need to see an urgent increase in the number of beds. Longer term, the message remains the same—we've got to increase staffing levels in healthcare settings and in communities. I wonder what he can do to reassure us that we will not be having this same conversation, in this Chamber, this time next year. And more importantly, what can he do to ensure those front-line staff that he speaks so warmly of, and patients, that they will not be in this position?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, there's a wide range of questions in there, Llywydd; I'll try and deal with the points as they've been provided. The starting point is that, of course we know there's extra pressure that comes over winter, and that the start of January is the most difficult time of all, with the pressure that comes in from the end of one festive period, people have put off care, people have gone home in the middle of that, who then require further treatment. It's not just in our hospitals either—this is a real challenge in primary care as well. And what we see in Hywel Dda, with the cancellation of inpatient activity, is a symptom of that whole-system pressure. And in terms of describing the whole-system pressure, nine out of the last 11 months in 2019 that have been reported on were record months for activity—nine out of 11 reported months. That's the scale of demand that is coming into our system. And, with respect, last winter, no-one in this room would have predicted that that is the activity that we would have seen.

What is being done is a plan for winter within each health board. I have no idea where the idea that there is somehow no plan for Betsi has come from, and it's rather difficult for me to deal with works of fiction and imagination. But there is absolutely a winter plan across north Wales—it has been agreed, not just within the health service, but direct matters under the health service control, and their share, which every health board, including north Wales, has received of the £30 million winter moneys, but the joint plan undertaken by the regional partnership board for what to do across the whole system. That does include extra bed capacity—and I announced before the break that that amounts to about 400 additional beds across the system. That's the size of a large district general hospital of additional capacity that's been put into the system. That includes additional capacity within Hywel Dda.

In terms of the conversations taking place with staff, the BMA made their comments on the way to a clinical summit that my officials are holding today—which includes the RCN and other stakeholders—to examine the reality of where we are, the response, and what more is possible at a national level. And, in terms of where Hywel Dda are, they are in a position now where they are seeing more progress being made on discharging patients to at least three of the four sites, because of the work they're doing and because of the implementation of the winter plan, but more than that, because of the relationships that exist between the health board and local authorities. And without those relationships being in a much better place than in previous winters, we'd be unlikely to see those discharges taking place.

It is a whole-system problem and it is a whole-system response in the here and now, and the continuing reform that I've regularly spoken about that is required to make sure we have additional capacity, and domiciliary and residential care, which includes health and social care working together to provide that. And it is also about how we choose to use the system as we continue to see more demand driven into our system. We need to look again at how we deliver and how we design it. And given all the peaks and troughs of activity, we need to recognise that we're unlikely to see a significant fall-back in demand. It's about how we deal with that demand to make sure that patient safety isn't compromised, and that is exactly why it was the right thing for Hywel Dda to do, with all of the different risks involved, to make sure that they prioritise people with the greatest need first.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Wow, where to start? We talk about the word 'safety', which has been used a couple of times, but let's be clear, the beds in Hywel Dda—the operations have been cancelled because the orthopaedic ward at Prince Philip Hospital has been closed to orthopaedic, to elective surgery, and they're putting medical cases in there. That takes care of an enormous number of the problems with the elective surgery. There is a lack of clarity from Hywel Dda management, who I've spoken to today, as to why the operations were cancelled in Bronglais, in Withybush and in Glangwili hospitals, but there's a real clarity about why they were cancelled in Prince Philip. Prince Philip's elective surgery wards are being used for medical cases, because they say that they've had a greater increase in medical cases.

Now, when I spoke to the chief executive earlier, discussing this with him, one of the things that I felt very strongly was that I accept that there are winter pressure plans in place with all of the health boards, but I do not think that they are imaginative enough or building enough contingency. We know what the trends are doing; we know what the trends are doing throughout the year. You tasked them, Minister, with coming up with winter pressure plans. You gave the extra £30 million. But listening, and carefully, I listened, it seems to be that there was a real 'I don't know what the pressure is' in terms of whether they felt that they didn't have the funding to do it, or whether it was 'let's produce the winter plan we had last year. Dust it off, increase it a bit and redo it'. But it comes down to—an awful lot of it—a lack of contingency planning, that extra fat in the system, where we've had to go away and close down entire elective wards.

I would be very interested in understanding from you what can be done to ensure that there's a real analysis of the data. Because, again, when I spoke to the chief executive, he said that they would be looking into what's happened—they would be looking into why this situation's been caused, but somebody's just made the decision to stop the operations on Monday and on Tuesday and again today. So, somebody already knows that data. So, I'm at a loss to understand why that data isn't currently available as to what is the absolute crux.

I wonder if you could look to encourage the health board and indeed now, Betsi Cadwaladr, to ensure that there is a really strong programme put in place to catch up with elective surgery. And let's be clear, folks: we're not just talking about hips and knees; in Hywel Dda, there's a 19.4-month waiting list already for that. So, imagine if you thought you were going to have your knees done, and puff, you've got to wait again. But it's ventral hernia surgery, bariatric surgery, reflux surgery— all manner of elective surgeries have been cancelled with waiting lists of up to 15 months. So, we're going to make our waiting list problem longer. So, Minister could you look at what might be done in the health boards, where they have had to cancel operations so that they can accelerate a catch-up programme so that our waiting times have an opportunity to improve rather than lengthen?

Finally, I think the elephant in the room is that social services need to be on call seven days a week all year around, like our health services. On call in terms of being able to do delayed transfers of care, because, again talking to the health board, what they're saying is that they can't get people out of hospital, because, although they have great relationships with social services, during periods such as Christmas and new year and bank holidays, people rightly, of course, have time off. No-one's saying, 'Gosh, you've got to work all the time', but we have to have a system in place where there's cover so that the ordinary business of discharging people, which in turn would free up beds to enable people to go into hospital who present at the front door, could carry on apace. Because, again, what I've been told is that part of the problem is they cannot get people out of there. That needs to be part of the winter planning that actually has a few more boots on the ground in terms of social care to get people out. I'd be very interested to know your thoughts on that.

And, finally, I would like to add that I think the staff have done a wonderful job and I'd like to say that the chief executive was absolutely crystal clear, in my conversation with him earlier on, that staff have come in, they've come in on their days off, they've worked overtime, they've cut short holidays in order to try to help this. So, this is not about the front-line effort and commitment and dedication, it's about the planning side of it and the contingency planning side of it being smarter and more agile in order to prevent this happening next year.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I understand why a range of questions have been asked by Angela, but I think a number of the conclusions she reached are significantly unfair and I think she should return again to them. I'll happily go through why I think that is. It's very easy to say this is all about planning and about the inability to deliver and the plans aren't imaginative enough. Actually, I think that's significantly unfair, because, if you look at the plans for this winter, they are different, they have learnt from last winter. Planning for winter started in spring last year to learn the lessons—what had taken place last winter, what had been successful. That's why this winter we've increased capacity in a number of areas. It's why we've rolled forward the Red Cross commitments, it's why the Care and Repair scheme has carried on as well. It's also why they've built in deliberately additional capacity together with partners across local authorities. The easiest thing to say is, 'You can be more imaginative and you could do more'. Actually, there's a finite number of things that you can do with a finite list of resource, and that isn't just money, that's people.

And, actually, in terms of your comments about social care, social care already works seven days a week. And, actually, the period between Christmas and new year isn't the particular problem period, because we already see hospitals seeing people leave over that period of time, and the challenge is at this point in the next two weeks. And, actually, the challenge really is about capacity within the wider social care system, in domiciliary care and in residential care. In west Wales in particular, but in other parts of the country—not just Wales but across the rest of the UK too—the fragility of parts of domiciliary and residential care is a real problem and a real limiting factor in being able to get people out of hospital and into their own home, whether that home is a street in a community that you or I live in or it's a residential care facility as well. So, there's a real challenge about how we do that and that's why the longer term reform is so important for the future, because, in terms of coming back to next year, that is about how successful can we be to commission capacity that is sustainable and of the quality that all of us would wish for our own families when we're providing for the wider public.

That is also why, though, I think it's entirely right that the health board have announced that they're going to do an objective deep dive into the decisions taken over this weekend and in the last few days. That doesn't mean to say that those decisions are wrong on the information available, but it is about wanting to learn in the here and now and not wait to review this in six months' time, but to learn, with a small bit of distance, objectively how were those decisions taken, are there things we could have done differently, so that actually it's not for next year, but for next week and next month to learn that. And that is absolutely the right thing to do. In fact, if they weren't doing that there'd be criticism in this Chamber for not undertaking that process at a near point to the events in time.

I think the leadership of the health board, together with front-line staff, are doing the right thing. And it is an exceptional period of time with an exceptional response from our staff. I look forward to a de-escalation taking place and you and others being able to look at your constituency and see that elective surgery has returned to more normal levels. But I'm not going to criticise the health board for errors where I don't think it's fair to criticise, and that's why I don't agree with the range of conclusions that Angela Burns has reached.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The first thing I want to do is to thank all the staff who are working incredibly hard to give dedicated support to those who need it and to recognise that they are completely driven to attend to the needs of their patients. I want to start there because I feel that's of importance and reassuring to those that we recognise that. I've read the e-mail from Dr Philip Banfield of BMA Cymru and the concerns that he's raised, because he's sent that, I would imagine, to a number of us. But I'm also aware of the distress that will happen for those patients who've been waiting for a procedure, whatever that procedure might be, and that people get anxious and then it is cancelled. So, I want to put on record that I recognise that; I'm sure everybody in this room does. So, what I'm interested in now is trying to move this forward, and there were a few suggestions that have come out of Dr Phil Banfield's statement. And he calls for an urgent need to expand the capacity of beds that are available as one possible solution to move people through the system. I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but I'd be interested to hear them.

I know that you've made extra capacity available in Hywel Dda, as you have across Wales, and again that is welcome news. But I think the one thing—and where I agree with Angela—is that, those people who've missed out this time on their procedures, they don't somehow get pushed back to the back of the list but they stay where they were, at the forefront. And if there's any way whatsoever that we can, in Wales, wherever that might be, bring these procedures forward or at least offer that possibility to the individuals so that they do see an end to what it is that they're hoping to resolve in their care package and their care procedure—.

So, those are the questions that I would like to know and I do understand also that there's going to be a joint meeting between yourself and the Deputy Minister for Social Services to look at moving forward perhaps more quickly and more carefully the domiciliary care challenge that we know is out there and also has been somewhat exacerbated by lots of the individuals who are working in that sector feeling unwelcome as a response of the Brexit. So, we are now even more short-staffed than we were before.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It's a fair point that Joyce Watson makes about the reality of wanting to recruit staff and people working in both domiciliary and residential care, and we do rely on a range of people from outside the UK to do so. So, any barriers to recruiting those people, who are often under the Government's proposed immigration cap, is a real problem for all of us in every one of the UK nations. If we were having this conversation in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland you'd find providers and elected members expressing exactly the same concerns about the practical impact on health and care services.

In terms of what we are in control of and what we can do, I'm happy to confirm to Joyce Watson that people who have had their operations postponed by the health service will be informed of a prompt early date for that operation to be re-arranged. The operations haven't been cancelled and moved to the back of the queue. It's part of what we do when the health service does say that it needs to put off an operation; they will automatically be offered a new and a prompt date. And, of course, I want to highlight, as the health board has done, that I'm really sorry and I understand the impact upon individuals who have been looking forward, often with a degree of anxiety, to a surgery, to then have that put off. That is not a pleasant position to go through, and yet we also know that objectively the people that are having emergency care and having cancer surgery—if we were not prioritising those people we would rightly be criticised for failing to do so across the system.

On the challenges and the potential answer that Phil Banfield has suggested—he said is a possible answer—more beds is often a seductive answer. We have surge capacity, so, as I've said earlier, 400 extra beds right across the health and care system—beds or bed equivalents. The challenge is that if we want to permanently increase capacity we need to understand what that's for, how we staff that so we have the permanent staff to be able to do so, and yet, actually, when the Royal College of Emergency Medicine talk about what they want to see to release what they refer to as exit block, they are not just talking about more consultants—and everybody typically asks for more of their own members—but they're saying they want to see investment in social care and in the social care system, because they recognise this isn't just a problem at the front door of the acute system in our hospitals, it's a challenge about people being kept at home safely, but also about being able to go to their own homes with a package of care and support. You'll have seen in the draft budget that, yet again this year, the health budget has put a deliberate sum of money into social care. I've increased that sum of money within the budget. It's also about why we put money into regional partnership boards that require health and social care to work together with other partners, and that is the system reform we need to see continuing at pace to try to make sure that we can deal with these problems as effectively and as quickly as possible, because they're not going to disappear.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

We have these heart-searching sessions so often because of extraordinary pressures on the health service, but that indicates that the extraordinary pressures have in some ways become routine and that's the systemic problem that we've got here. Operations have been cancelled now for the third consecutive day in Hywel Dda and people might be forgiven, therefore, for thinking we should change the name of the health board to Hywel Ddim Mor Dda—you know, Hywel Not So Good, as a health board.

Nobody questions, I think—I certainly don't—the commitment of the staff and the management in Hywel Dda to make things better, and they've been working very, very hard since the change of regime to improve things and have met with a great deal of success, I think. There is obviously still a long way to go, but there is a systemic problem, not just in Hywel Dda. Figures published last month showed accident and emergency performance at hospitals throughout Wales was at a record low for the third month running and the Welsh ambulance service failed to meet its response time target for the first time in four years.

Dr Banfield, who's been mentioned several times in this session this afternoon, has said that there isn't one person to blame for this. He said this is an issue within the system. And he says:

'We're hearing reports of cancer surgery now being cancelled as well throughout different hospitals in Wales.'

I hear what the Minister said about the beds question a moment ago, but, again, Dr Banfield does make what I think is the elementary point, that surgical beds are full of medical patients and that puts the wrong type of patient in the wrong hospital bed at the wrong time and they're clearly not getting the care that they should do.

Nobody expects anybody in the health service to have perfect foresight and things will go wrong, often for adventitious reasons that nobody could have predicted, so we have to be reasonable about this. But, as Helen Mary Jones said right from the start, we do know that winter takes place every year and that there are extraordinary pressures that are likely to hit, and I heard the First Minister yesterday saying, 'Well, we knew this was coming anyway. That's why we didn't have operations planned for last week.' Well, in which case, surely we could have perhaps been a little more accurate in our predictions as to the kind of pressures that would be added on top of what was in the system anyway.

The Minister comes here so regularly now he just has a sort of look of resignation on his face at the points that we all have to make. And if he were in our position he'd be making them in the same way that we have, I have absolutely no doubt. Again, I don't doubt his commitment to improving the health service in Wales at all, but something has to be done.

More money somehow has to be provided as well as some sort of improvements at the micro level within each of the health boards that is suffering from these kinds of systemic problems. Hywel Dda has been in a difficult position, it has been making improvements, but clearly there's a long way yet to go. I hope that the Minister will do his best to ensure that Hywel Dda is given the resources that it needs to cope with the pressures that it has been enduring.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well we've provided significant support as a Government to the health and social care system, sustained investment over and above consequential sums of money. So, in terms of financial support, this Government has absolutely—. And that's objectively undeniable: the Treasury's own figures show that we continue to put more money into our health and health and care system than England, and we've sustained that investment for a deliberate purpose.

It's not just the money. As I've said on several other occasions, it's about how the health and social care parts of the system work together. The BMA and the RCN recognise that it's complex. It's not as simple as saying, 'Provide more money and just try harder and everything will be fine.' It is about the level and the nature of the demand, and one of the best examples of how that demand has increased in complexity is that the red calls that the ambulance service respond to—. When I made the decision to change the red call status, there was some criticism—there's still a bit of it every now and again—to try and suggest that that was really about changing the figures to suit me. It actually came because of a clinical review, supported by our front-line staff, supported by every medical director in Wales. We have a new category, a new definition to get to the sickest people. That's why there's a new red category. And yet, now, we have 15 per cent more red calls to the ambulance service than last winter, and over the last three months there have been record volumes of red calls. These are very, very unwell people who do require hospital care. So, the demand profile has changed since last winter.

So, all the measures we took last winter, the additional measures we've taken now, and our ability to get people out of the hospital system and into social care is the nub of the challenge. That's why the fragility of domiciliary and residential is such a threat and a problem, which is why we look at health and social care more and more closely together. And I'll say it again, without the improved relationships and the steps that local government must take side by side with the health service—those things are taking place now, as I speak, to get more people out of hospital—this problem would be significantly worse.

But, it is not finished. I'm certainly not complacent or satisfied, because I recognise that means that the experience of some people is not what it should be. And the small number of planned operations that were due to take place but have not—that is the system planning for what it can expect to see. But, these are still, nevertheless, acceptable beyond the planned-for activity. So, the deep dive that I've referred to, that Angela Burns referred to, will take place. That will be useful not just for Hywel Dda but for other parts of our system as well. And I look forward to answering probably similar questions next week when I make a statement on winter pressures.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the 90-second statements. There is one statement today, and that is a statement by Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Presiding Officer. The Knife Angel arrived at the Oriel Davies Gallery in Newtown on Saturday. It's the first Welsh location to host the monument as it continues its tour across the UK, and it will remain in Newtown until the end of January, in an effort to end knife crime and violent behaviour. Thankfully, Powys does not have a serious issue with knife crime, but the Knife Angel also exists to act against bullying and county lines and other attacks.

The angel was transported from the British Ironwork Centre in Oswestry, and the sculpture, which is made completely of knives, aims to bring the issue of knife crime to the forefront of society's consciousness. After contacting police forces, 200 knife banks were placed at locations across the country and the creation of the Knife Angel began.

The ceremony last Saturday to welcome the Knife Angel to Newtown was led by Councillor Joy Jones, who has worked very hard as well with Dafydd Llywelyn, the Police and Crime Commissioner for Dyfed-Powys, and Powys County Council to bring the sculpture to Newtown. So, I'd like to pay tribute to her and all the others who've worked to bring this about.

The turnout at Newtown was amazing and it showed what impact the Knife Angel is having in every place that it goes to, communicating the message of anti-violence. And for the rest of this month, Powys County Council are conducting various educational workshops and programmes, and the drive encompasses schools and youth groups as well. Only with the public's help can the national monument against violence and aggression send its message to those it was intended for. So, if you are in Newtown or passing Newtown this month, then please do visit the Knife Angel.

6. Statement by the Chair of the Committee on Assembly Electoral Reform: An update on the work of the Committee

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is a statement by the Chair of the Committee on Assembly Electoral Reform and an update on the work of that committee. I call on the Chair of the committee to make her statement—Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Diolch, Llywydd. The Committee on Assembly Electoral Reform was established by this National Assembly in September 2019 to examine the recommendations of the expert panel on Assembly electoral reform. Members will recall that, in 2017, the expert panel reported on a wide range of issues, but at the core of its work was a recognition that the Assembly and its Members need to be able to carry out our responsibilities effectively if we are to properly serve the people that we represent. The expert panel concluded that, as devolution in Wales enters its next phase, the Assembly cannot continue as it is without risking its ability to deliver for the people and communities it serves.

The expert panel's recommendations on votes for 16 and 17-year-olds have been given effect by the Senedd and elections Bill. Our role as a committee is to examine the remaining recommendations, which embrace a range of significant issues. These include: the size of the Assembly; its diversity; how Members are elected; and, the areas that we represent. These can be seen as complicated and technical issues, but we must help to continue an informed public debate as they lie at the heart of our still-developing democracy in Wales. As a committee, we will look at each issue in turn.

We see no need to go over the previous ground, So, in carrying out our work, we will consolidate and add to the existing evidence, using the work of the expert panel as our starting point. I believe that the conversations that we hold and any recommendations that we make will be most effective if they underpin a long-term vision for the Senedd and are rooted in a broad base of political and public support. To achieve this, the committee will be outward looking and open minded. We will provide accurate and accessible information, seek evidence and gather opinions. We will use a broad range of methods to gather evidence and listen carefully to people's views.

Most of us in this Chamber have engaged with or have been part of this institution since its early days, but we must also remember that younger people—including the 16 and 17-year-olds who will have the right to vote for the first time in 2021—will never have known a Wales without devolution. To make sure that their voices are heard during our work, we are exploring options for working with the Welsh Youth Parliament and for engaging with young people across Wales through the Assembly's education and outreach teams.

So, today marks a key moment in the committee's work. Since you voted to create this committee, we are aware that most of our deliberations have been in private, as we've received technical briefings and discussed the work programme that we're presenting today. This statement now provides the opportunity to share our plans with you. Today, we've published our strategic approach, setting out our aims and objectives for the coming months, as well as the terms of reference for each of our inquiries. I hope that this will provide clarity about how we will explore the three key issues within our remit.

We've also launched our first consultation today. We're seeking evidence from the electoral community, political parties and other stakeholders to inform our work on electoral systems, boundaries, and boundary-review mechanisms. In addition to gathering formal written evidence, we want everyone to be able to follow our work and tell us what they think. To facilitate this, we will be using the 'Your Wales' digital-engagement platform to share information about our work and to provide opportunities for people to offer their thoughts and feedback on an ongoing basis. I hope that you, as Members, will encourage people in your constituencies and regions to engage with our work in this way.

I'm pleased today to have been able to outline our ambitious and comprehensive programme of work, which we intend to complete by autumn 2020. Indeed, our work has already begun, with an evidence session in December with the Llywydd, and discussions with stakeholders earlier this week. We're approaching our task with a sense of realism as we know that there is a range of different views amongst Members present here today. There will doubtless also be a range of views among those who will sit in these seats in the next Assembly, and amongst the constituents they will represent. We each approach these issues from our distinct perspectives, but we hope for meaningful discussion with, and hopefully between, political parties and the people who we all seek to represent.

We don't underestimate the task, but we will approach it with enthusiasm. As a minimum, we intend for our evidence-based conclusions to offer a roadmap for reform, which we hope will help political parties as they consider their manifestos for 2021 and maximise the chance of a consensus emerging on a way forward. As a committee, we have a challenging task ahead of us, but we also have a real and exciting opportunity to contribute to the continuing and flourishing democracy in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I welcome the establishment of this committee, and I'm very glad to sit on it. Although, it is a shame that any changes we recommend will not come into force until at least 2026. It's all the more essential that we work cross-party to get this to be a project that everyone in the Senedd can feel that it belongs to them—and I really do hope that the Conservative benches will feel able to add a Member to our midst.

Now, as Dawn Bowden has said, the committee will partly be looking at how we can address the lack of capacity we have in this place, to allow us to be more innovative, to do more cross-party work, for more effective scrutiny to take place, and to allow Members of this Senedd to develop expertise in particular fields.

Now, Llywydd, this isn't about increasing numbers for the sake of increasing numbers; it's about ensuring that this Senedd can fully fulfil not just its potential but its obligation to be a truly national Parliament of Wales. To become a legislature that reflects the people it represents, a Parliament where the people of Wales can see themselves not just spoken for but exemplified, a Parliament where anyone in Wales could see people who look like them, who have similar characteristics to them, present. Because our committee will also be looking at how the increase in Members could lead to more diversity in this place.

After all, there is more than one meaning to the word 'represent'. Yes, it can mean to act or speak on behalf of or to present officially for another person or group of people, but it can also mean to be the result of something or to be something. When we are elected to this Parliament, we're given the tremendous honour of speaking on behalf of and voting for the benefit of our constituents. Up until now, and with some exceptions, there has been a disappointing lack of diversity in our midst. This is our chance to put that right. Imagine a Senedd where every person living in Wales recognises the Senedd as a place that is relevant and belongs to them. Now, wouldn't that represent a change we could all be proud of?

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Whilst my party is willing to engage in discussion and debate on the expansion in the number of Assembly Members and the other matters under the committee's remit, we believe that there must be a robust and exhaustive examination into the current role and workload of the existing AMs, which also takes into account the expansion in the workload of the Assembly as a whole. This would then inform whether there is a call for the expansion to 80 or 90 AMs, as envisaged in the expert committee report commissioned by the Welsh Government.

Above all, the Welsh people themselves must be convinced, via the arguments put forward, that such an expansion is not just desirable but unavoidable. We as a party chose to be involved in the process by representation on the electoral reform committee because we believe such dramatic changes to the Assembly structure should be subject to rigorous scrutiny.

As has been outlined by the Chair of the committee, the committee is determined to engage with all those who shall be affected by the changes, and this, above all, will include the Welsh public at large. In order to achieve these aims, we have set out how we intend to facilitate this engagement and, indeed, have already begun this process with initial discussions with the chair of the expert panel on Assembly electoral reform, Laura McAllister, her officers, and the Llywydd and her staff. We have also hosted a round-table event with relevant stakeholders.

Our deliberations are, of course, not confined to the increase in the number of AMs. There are two other important proposals that we shall be examining in depth. The first of these is what changes may be made to increase the diversity in the Assembly, and the second being that of electoral reform. That is, the method by which Members of the Assembly shall be elected, and this will include any intended border changes that may be needed in order to implement alterations to the electoral system chosen.

Given our deliberations so far, I'm convinced that we have an extremely competent Chair of the committee in Dawn Bowden, and there is a definite desire amongst those parties who have chosen to engage in this process to reach consensus on the way forward. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It's my mistake: I should have asked the Chair of the committee to respond to the statements made by Delyth Jewell and David Rowlands. It is a statement, not a debate, and I've confused myself there. So, if I could ask the Chair of the committee to respond to the statements already made—

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

—and I'll try and switch myself back on. [Laughter.]

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

It's okay, I was waiting for the questions, and they were very supportive statements, so thank you both for that. Can I just deal, firstly, with the point that Delyth Jewell raised about the lack of a Conservative Member on the committee? I think I too and other members of the committee would very much welcome the Conservative Party reviewing their position on that. I have had conversations with the leader of the Conservative group, and I know that the Conservative group are very keen to be involved in the work of the committee, and it's certainly the view of the committee that we need to reach out to all political parties, even those that are not on the committee and to seek their views, and we will be looking to do that. But, of course, the committee can change its membership at any time, and if the Conservatives do come forward and offer somebody up to sit on the committee and work with us, then I believe the Business Committee can look at that and can make recommendations to this Assembly, and we can take an additional member on board, so I very much hope that will happen.

The other issues that have been picked up are the issues of capacity, diversity and scrutiny. Certainly, on capacity, we've already had, as was described by David Rowlands, a round-table discussion with some initial stakeholders, and these were primarily third-party organisations and the media that work with the Assembly very closely, and they were able to give us their observations about how they work with the Assembly. I thought what was interesting about that was how they were able to contrast and compare how they can interact with MPs in Westminster and how they are unable to interact with us in the same way, because of our lack of capacity, our lack of numbers, our availability and so on, and the need for us to be able to specialise in particular areas.

Again, they referenced the fact that MPs quite often only sit on one committee, and I think, Llywydd, when you gave evidence, you mentioned the fact that something like 100 MPs don't sit on any committees. So, that does give the MPs much more scope to be able to specialise, to concentrate on particular areas, that we as AMs don't. I think one of the things that have come across loud and clear in the information that we've received so far is that, to enable us to scrutinise more effectively—and that is, after all, what this Assembly should be here to do, to scrutinise the Government—we need to have the capacity to be able to do that.

Another point that came out of those discussions that I think is worthy of flagging up here was that we constantly talk about having 60 Members, but, in actual fact, we've really got about 45, because 15 are in Government, and so, we really only have 45 Members then, who are available for committee work, Commission work and scrutiny work. So, we need to look at it in that context.

But I think one of the key aspects for us, and I think all of us have identified that, is that we have a huge amount of work to do with the public. That will be very, very important for us in terms of the outward-looking approach of the committee, how we engage with members of the public, how we explain to them what this place does, and how they can influence that and how they can make us more effective.