Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 1 July 2020

503 contributions from 50 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welcome, all, to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. A Plenary meeting held by video-conference in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on your agenda. I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary apply to this meeting, as do the time limits on questions that will be applied to this meeting.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, the first item on our agenda this morning is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Caroline Jones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Caroline, if you can wait for your microphone to be unmuted. You need to unmute your microphone, Caroline.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure Wales is equipped to deal with future pandemics? OQ55394

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Diolch, Llywydd. I thank the Member for that question. The Welsh Government leads a set of local resilience arrangements and participates in UK-wide networks that, together, focus on public protection and pandemic preparedness.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, First Minister. I'm sure that you will agree that we were woefully unprepared for COVID-19. Despite SARS and MERS, our pandemic planning was still based upon an outbreak of influenza. However, our planning still neglected to prioritise testing capacity. This current pandemic has shown that those countries that had testing capacity early on made it through the initial outbreak relatively unscathed.

Leading virologists have warned that other unknown viruses could threaten us in future as climate change and population growth force humans into closer contact with wildlife. As with this coronavirus, we have to test and isolate the infected, and we can't afford to quarantine everyone. First Minister, what plans does your Government have to ensure that Wales has sufficient lab capacity to conduct tens of thousands of reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction tests on a daily basis? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I thank Caroline Jones for that question, and I agree with what she said about the changing nature of the threats that we see on a global scale and the need for us to be alert to them. It is why we have our own Wales response plan. It's why we work through our local resilience forums, and then that we are linked into the UK structures as well. The four nations' chief medical officer meetings, the fact that emergency planning leads meet as a group across the four nations: all of those things mean that we are playing our part in the efforts that are needed across the United Kingdom to be well prepared for the future and to put those things in place that will make us resilient for any future events of this sort that we may need to face.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Good morning, Llywydd. Good morning, First Minister. Picking up on Caroline's point, of course, none of us were prepared for this pandemic, and I think that we, as a world, have learned some very significant lessons about what happens when you impinge on nature and how we can all respond. And, of course, the point that Caroline has raised about the testing capacity is vitally important, and I know that you acknowledge that. But whilst we may have been caught on the hop in terms of the general pandemic, we have had now months to start getting our testing regime in place and working. Yet, figures produced yesterday show that little over a fifth of the daily testing capacity in Wales has been utilised, and for the seventh week in a row there was a slow-down on testing for healthcare workers. Additionally, we are still waiting 48, sometimes 72, hours for tests to come back. And the point made before, which I think we'd all agree with, is that we need to get people back into the workplace, back out into their real lives, as soon as possible if they're self-isolating because people around them or they have symptoms.

So, First Minister, what are you going to be able to do to ensure that we have a comprehensive and responsive testing regime that can move forward, that can deliver for Wales? How will you change things to improve it? How will you ensure that this testing regime is fit for any purpose that might be thrown at us with any other pandemics that may come our way?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I thank Angela Burns for that. Well, we have a comprehensive testing regime in place in Wales. We have more tests available today than at any time previously, with just under 15,000 tests available in Wales every day. The fact that sometimes fewer people are being tested simply means there are fewer people needing a test. It's not our ambition simply to test people who don't need testing. There are fewer, sometimes, healthcare workers needing testing—that's why the numbers are down. There are fewer people being tested in care homes, but that's because we have a regime of testing everybody every week who work in care homes.

In terms of the way in which tests are turned around, we need to improve the proportion of tests that are completed within 24 hours, but the number of tests that are turned around within 24 hours is higher than it's been at any point in the pandemic. That's because more tests are being carried out. So, when the proportion of tests completed within 24 hours was at its highest, we completed between 200 and 300 a day within 24 hours. Now, when the proportion is lower, we're carrying out 1,700 a day within 24 hours because there are far more tests being carried out. And in north Wales, in the two pandemics, we have been turning around the huge majority of tests within 24 hours.

I think that our test, trace and protect system has demonstrated that it's been able to mobilise and to provide the service that is needed in those contexts, and I think that's something that we ought to be glad about. I think we ought to give a bit of credit to those people who worked so hard to make sure that those arrangements are in place and working effectively.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

First Minister, it is being reported today that the US Government has secured virtually all the stocks of one of the two drugs that are shown to currently help COVID-19 patients. The White House said that it had bought up more than 500,000 courses of remdesivir, an antiviral that trials suggest helps some patients spend less time in hospital. This includes all of the supplies that will be manufactured this month, as well as 90 per cent of those due in August and September. Such unilateral deals obviously have implications for patients in Islwyn and across Wales, so what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the effective supply of medicines in this global pandemic?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Rhianon Passmore for that important question. She's right to point to the challenges that there are in securing effective supplies of medicines. There is increased demand for medicines around the globe, but there has been falling production capacity because India and China, where many medicines are produced, have had to stand back from production because of the impact of coronavirus in their own countries. The continuity of supply of medicines is a reserved matter, it isn't a matter that is devolved to Wales, but we have been working hard with the other four nations to make sure that there are plans in place to understand demand, to allocate available stock, to increase supply where required.

We face, as I know Rhianon Passmore will know, the additional difficulty of leaving the European Union without a proper deal. Ninety per cent of these medicines come into the United Kingdom across the short strait between Calais and Dover. If there were to be disruption to those supplies, the UK Government previously planned to rely on air freight, but air freight isn't moving in the COVID crisis. So, there are real issues arising from coronavirus that we are all grappling with, but there are avoidable difficulties that are looming on the horizon as well. And as the body responsible for continuity of supply of medicines, it's really incumbent on the UK Government not to add to the difficulties we are already facing and the challenges that coronavirus itself has produced.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

2. Will the First Minister make a statement on what the Welsh Government is doing to support the aviation sector in Wales? OQ55393

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, following the overnight news about Airbus, I wanted to be absolutely clear that the Welsh Government will do all we can to support the company and its workforce in these very difficult times. But the global nature of the current crisis in aviation means that local solutions will not be sufficient by themselves to ensure the future of this important strategic industry. And we continue to work with the UK Government to press them to provide targeted assistance for the aviation sector.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for that, First Minister, and I appreciate the continued support of the Welsh Government. But I must say I am absolutely furious and, frankly, upset. For months now, I have been telling the UK Government that they must intervene to support jobs in the aviation and aerospace sector, and, honestly, I've heard nothing back.

This is an industry that had full order books. This is not the fault of the company nor its workforce. When the Governments needed ventilators a few months ago, this workforce stepped up to the plate and produced 10,000 ventilators. The UK Government has a—[Inaudible.] First Minister, will you speak directly with Boris Johnson and tell him that he must act now?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I thank Jack Sargeant for that and for his long-standing commitment to Airbus and to its workforce. When I last visited there on 30 January, it was with Jack, and we were there to celebrate apprenticeship week. We met a fantastic group of very talented, very bright, very committed young people, looking to a successful future in an industry in which, at that point, had a very successful future in front of it.

What we have to do, working together with the UK Government, is to find a way of helping this industry to bridge between the difficulties it faces today and the successful future that is still there for it, provided we can help it through the difficult couple of years ahead. And there are many actions that can be taken—things we will do to continue to support apprenticeships, to develop skills of the workforce, to invest in research and development, and then there is the part the UK Government has to play.

Our colleague Ken Skates spoke yesterday with Ministers in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. He was talking to the Secretary of State at BEIS on Friday. This week of course I will talk to any Minister in the UK Government to press the case for the sort of sector-specific help that is now needed, as the French Government has done, as the German Government has done, to demonstrate that the world-leading aviation sector that we have in Wales and in the United Kingdom goes on being supported by Governments here at all levels.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mark Isherwood. Mark Isherwood—

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I've unmuted. Thank you. I received a briefing, alongside Welsh Conservative MPs in north-east Wales, from Airbus last night. We note that tomorrow, when the announcements are likely to have detail added to them—we hope that it is going to be dealt with without compulsory redundancies. But I hope to touch on that later in a topical question.

On 9 April Airbus announced it was cutting production because of new rules on distancing and said that it was reducing temporary production and support labour supplied by Guidant Global. On 28 April Guidant Global furloughed their almost 500 workforce at Airbus and served them with a risk-of-redundancy notice. And yesterday Airbus announced that the job losses were in addition to reductions of more than 700 temps and subcontractors at UK commercial sites. But in addition to the work the Welsh Government will be doing directly, and with the UK Government, for Airbus, what support have you been providing, or what will you be providing, for those Guidant Global employees?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the Member makes an important point that the difficulties in the aviation sector go beyond Airbus, go beyond the direct employees of Airbus, but go into the supply chain as well—150 firms, we think, with 1,500 additional jobs that rely on Airbus as part of their business futures. So, the response that the Welsh Government will make, including bringing together in a submit all those local players and Welsh national players who have a part to play in responding to the difficulties that Airbus itself faces and the knock-on effects that that has for others in the supply chain more broadly, will be a way in which we will look to design together the sort of response that supports this sector, because it has a successful future. We need to get it through the next couple of years, and we need to do that without losing really experienced and very skilled people who this company will need again when order books pick up and the global economy recovers. Our efforts will be very much directed at that impact in the round that we will see across the economy of north-east Wales.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the First Minister for his answers, and I'm sure that we're all thinking of the staff members and their families who are living through this very uncertain time. I fully understand, of course, the points the First Minister makes about the vital role of the UK Government, but we may find ourselves in a situation where there will be some Airbus jobs that will be lost, and, obviously, our priority must be ensuring minimising the number of those jobs that are lost here in Wales. So, to a certain extent, there's an element of competition there.

I wonder—. The First Minister mentions the summit, and that is obviously very welcome. I wonder what discussions the Welsh Government has had or will have with Airbus about what steps we might be able to take to give the Welsh workforce the best possible advantage. Are there, for example, things that need to be done in the field of infrastructure, whether that be digital infrastructure, practical infrastructure, that could be offered as not an immediate solution, but as a short-term solution to make it more attractive for Airbus to stay here and keep the work here if there is some inevitable loss—not that we would wish, of course, any workers to lose their jobs anywhere?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Helen Mary Jones for that. She's absolutely right: our thoughts today must be focused on those people whose futures are now so uncertain. I had a meeting at 10 o'clock this morning with Unite the union, who represents the bulk of workers at Broughton. There were members of Broughton staff involved in that call, and it's a very sober and shocked atmosphere at the plant this morning.

Helen Mary Jones is right, as well, that the plant at Broughton has always had to compete with other Airbus sites elsewhere in Europe. It's because of the joint working with the trade union that the management there will tell you that it is at the leading edge of production, of efficiency, of health and safety—all the things that the company values, Broughton has been at a leading edge. That's partly because of the help they've had from the Welsh Government and others. Our investment in the advanced manufacturing research centre was absolutely designed to give Broughton an edge in attracting the wing of the future research to north Wales, and we will go on doing that. If there are things that we can do that will help Broughton persuade Airbus globally to bring more work to north Wales, where they have this dedicated, skilled and very committed workforce, then, of course, we will do that, as we have in the past, and will intensify whatever efforts we can to assist them in that way.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, this week, we've seen some encouraging news from Scotland, with the number of confirmed COVID-19 deaths there falling to three in total over the last five days, and Professor Devi Sridhar predicting that Scotland could be practically COVID-free in terms of non-imported cases by the end of the summer. In England, by way of contrast, it's been reported that the chief medical officer there expects to see the level of new daily infections remaining at the current level of around 3,000 a day for the foreseeable future. First Minister, do you think that a COVID-free Wales, in the terms described, is a realistic aspiration in the near term, and is aiming for zero, in a sense, the surest way of avoiding a second spike?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I'm pleased to say in response to Adam Price that many of the key indicators in Wales continue to head in the right direction as well, with death numbers falling, with hospital admissions falling, with numbers of patients in critical care falling again in the last week for which we have complete figures. In one sense, aiming for a COVID-free Wales is of course what we would want to do, but I want to be realistic with people as well: we have a long and porous border; that it is difficult to regard Wales as an island for these purposes, and that our ability to make Wales COVID-free very much depends upon the efforts that are made across the United Kingdom in the same direction.

We have heard—I know he has heard—stark warnings from the chief medical officer that, in the autumn, when the cold and the damp return, the conditions in which COVID may thrive will be with us again. So, while aiming to have COVID at the lowest possible level that we can in Wales, we shouldn't think that that means that we're out of the woods and that there aren't other dangers in front of us in the rest of this calendar year.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Many countries have successfully suppressed the virus to near-zero new cases. New Zealand is regarded as the world leader, but it's not alone. Greece, Slovenia, Austria, Norway have also suppressed the virus to the extent that restrictions there are now limited and new cases rare, and, like Wales, those countries are not islands either.

I take the First Minister's point, but would he like to see an elimination strategy adopted across the whole of the UK, and will he ask the technical advisory cell to look at the experience specifically of those countries that have adopted an elimination strategy to see whether that could be adopted in full or in part in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I'm very happy to ask the technical advisory group for their views on that. We already do get advice from them that draws on experience elsewhere in the world. When I was able to make an announcement on Monday about extended households here in Wales, it was very much informed by the New Zealand experience and things we have learnt from them. I think Adam Price points to some very interesting examples when he points, for example, to Norway and to Greece as places that have borders with other countries where the experience has been different, and, in that sense, if there are things that we can learn from them that will help us on the journey to bear down on coronavirus to the maximum possible extent, I would be very keen that we learn those lessons here in Wales and I'm very happy that we deploy the assistance we get through the technical advisory group to give us whatever lessons they think can be learned from experiences in those places, and then to apply it to be of assistance to us here in Wales.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Even in those countries that have been successful in disease suppression, of course the price of liberty from the virus, if you like, is eternal vigilance, particularly as regards new outbreaks, and we see possibly in Leicester as well, don't we, the danger potentially of not having local intelligence turned quickly enough into local action. So, drawing on recent experience in Wales as well, is the First Minister prepared to make a number of commitments to ensure a rapid turnaround between testing and results, particularly in relation to local outbreaks, and to publishing local dashboards of indicators to identify local spikes? And, finally, can you set out the circumstances and the practical means by which a local lockdown, if it became necessary, would be implemented in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, again, I thank Adam Price for those questions. So, in terms of how we would judge whether a local lockdown were necessary, then in the two examples, the live examples, in north-east and north-west Wales, then, in both those cases, the key test will be whether or not there is wider community transmission from the closed settings of the two factories where the outbreaks have taken place. The most recent evidence is encouraging, but I don't want to overstate that, because this week is a very important week in keeping on top of any evidence that transmission has moved from the factory setting, and those most closely associated with it, and into the wider community. If we have evidence of strong community spread, then that would be the indicator for us of a need for further local measures.

Now, you could argue—and I've seen people argue—that in Ynys Môn, for example, we already have a form of local lockdown. There are hundreds of people self-isolating because of the outbreak at 2 Sisters, and the local authority took the decision quite early on not to reopen schools in Ynys Môn alongside the rest of Wales on Monday. So, we already have some differentiated policy interventions happening because of that local outbreak.

We are absolutely clear that—. Unlike in Leicester, where there seemed to be quite a lot of confusion as to whether the legal powers existed and to whom they belonged, we are very clear that, in Wales, Welsh Ministers have the powers through our regulations to take local action to reduce, if we had to, some of the freedoms we've been able to reintroduce in order to deal with local outbreaks. And we would certainly be prepared to do that were the need to be there.

On the Member's point about local dashboards, I'm very happy again to get some advice on that to see whether that sort of information exists in a way that will be meaningful and reliable at a local level. And, if it is, then the Welsh Government's policy throughout the coronavirus crisis has been to make as much information public as possible, so people can understand their local context and then to act in the way that Adam Price said, because it isn't Governments that take the decisive actions in these areas—it is the actions of citizens being vigilant in the way that Adam Price described that, in the end, gives us the greatest defence.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, yesterday's news that Airbus is set to cut 1,700 jobs across the UK, as it struggles with the effects of the coronavirus crisis, is a devastating blow to workers in Broughton and, indeed, in north-east Wales, and the Welsh Government rightly responded to say that it would use all of the levers at its disposal to support workers throughout this difficult time. As you said earlier, it's crucial now that inter-governmental work takes place immediately, and I hope that Governments are working together at all levels to best support the workers in Broughton at this time.

First Minister, you've already described what measures you are looking to take to support the company and its workers at Airbus, but this news will, as Mark Isherwood said earlier, also undoubtedly have an effect on the wider supply chain, which will include a number of local businesses. So, can you tell us what specific measures and schemes the Welsh Government is at the moment considering to ensure that the supply chain is as supported as it can be?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I think I'd say to the Member that very difficult as that news has been overnight, we can point to the way in which, with the UK Government and with the local authority, we were able to respond to the decision of Ford to leave Bridgend, with 1,300 jobs lost there directly, but the way in which the teams we put together, and the structures that we introduced, were very much focused on the supply chains in the automotive industry as well. So, we have some very recent and practical experience of responding to difficulties of this sort.

The key difference between Ford and Airbus is that the Ford decision was a decision to leave Wales altogether, whereas Airbus has a successful future in front of it, provided we can get it through the next difficult months ahead, and that will mean working with supply chains. The summit meeting that I mentioned in my earlier answer is one that will involve the wider economy of north-east Wales and, indeed, the Mersey Dee Alliance, because many people who work at Broughton live in Chester and across our border there, and the impact on supply chains will be felt across that north-east, north-west economy.

So we will work with all those local players, and with the UK Government, in order to make sure that we have a comprehensive picture of the needs, and co-design with people on the ground the sort of help that they will find most useful. We have some off-the-peg things that we do. We've got some tried-and-tested ways in which we mobilise help, but we want to do more than that. We want to make sure that the help we offer will be the help that people locally tell us will be most useful to them. And working with them, and having a summit, will be a way of drawing all that together, to make sure that the help that we are able to offer is calibrated to meet the specific needs and circumstances of that north-east Wales economy.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I very much agree with you: it's vital that Governments and parties are working together, where they can, to support workers at this time, and I'll do whatever I can to constructively work with you, and colleagues in Westminster, to ensure that everything that can be done will be done to support those affected by this news.

Now, sadly, it's not the only announcement regarding job losses in Wales recently, and given that unemployment in Wales doubled in the month of April, it's critical that support is in place for those who have lost their jobs as a result of the coronavirus pandemic. Now is the time for the Welsh Government to be having discussions, of course, with business leaders and skills providers about developing packages to help support people across Wales who may not be able to retain their employment at the end of the furlough scheme because of the COVID-19 pandemic. There are families across Wales who are in an extremely vulnerable position, and given that there will be a degree of uncertainty in the job market for some time yet, it is important that families across Wales feel that support and advice is available. Therefore, can you tell us what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of COVID-19 on employment across Wales, and what discussions has the Welsh Government had with business leaders, and skills providers, about how best to mitigate against any economic shocks as a result of COVID-19?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the leader of the opposition for what he said about playing a constructive part in the response to the position faced in Airbus and the wider north-east Wales economy.

The analysis that we have of the Welsh economy, in the COVID context, is that it's quite complex. He'll have heard, I'm sure, today, the reports from Andy Haldane, the deputy governor of the Bank of England, that they think that the early signs are that a v-shaped recovery for many parts of the economy is under way—a sharp downturn, and a very sharp rebound. And we want to make sure that as much of the Welsh economy is able to recover as quickly as possible in that way. But there will be aspects of the Welsh economy where that will be more difficult—companies and industries who are not able to resume activity as quickly as others. And there, we are talking to the UK Government particularly about the long-term arrangements from the job retention scheme, which I've always welcomed in Wales. I've always appreciated what the UK Government has done, and understand that, as industries get back to work, you can't go on offering a furlough scheme to places where people are back working full-time. But in some sectors of the Welsh economy, we need a more specific, sector-specific furlough scheme that will go beyond the end of October. And that will offer comfort to those industries that they will still be able to sustain themselves through the difficult days of this calendar year, and be there to resume activity next year, when, as we all hope, things will be better.

So, we will mobilise the actions that we have, in consultation with business leaders. I was with the head of the Confederation of British Industry in Wales last week and with the head of the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales last week. There were very helpful suggestions from the CBI about how we could work together in mitigating some of the impacts on the Welsh economy, and then we will need help from elsewhere to be able to do the job that we all need to do, focusing on jobs, relentlessly on jobs, in our economy, during the second half of this financial year.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, First Minister, as you know, my party have also brought forward proposals to establish a COVID recovery fund for those areas most affected economically, and I hope you'll constructively look at our proposals, which could make a real difference to people affected by the closures and the job losses at Airbus, and indeed Laura Ashley.

Now, in response to the latest Office for National Statistics labour market statistics for Wales, the Learning and Work Institute Cymru were right to say that the picture now starting to emerge is that those areas that entered the crisis with the highest levels of unemployment have experienced some of the largest rises over the last two months. This just demonstrates that there were communities across Wales that were already struggling with levels of deprivation before the COVID-19 pandemic, and so a resilience package, which includes investment, support and opportunities, is needed more than ever.

First Minister, given that the claimant count has nearly doubled, and now stands at the highest level since August 1994, can you tell us what new thinking the Welsh Government is adopting to start—[Inaudible.]—the picture described by the Learning and Work Institute Cymru? Could you also tell us what monitoring of programmes and funding is taking place to ensure that economic funds are reaching those communities in most need and to identify any gaps in support packages? And what is the Welsh Government doing to help build resilience in communities across Wales, particularly those already struggling before the COVID-19 pandemic?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the economic resilience fund that the Welsh Government has drawn together has, up until now, been very much focused on simply assisting firms and individuals to cope with the impact of coronavirus. But we have already indicated that there will be a further phase of the ERF, beyond phase 1 and 2, which we are currently operating, and phase 3 will be a recovery phase. And there will be many millions of pounds still in the fund that we will be able to use for recovery, and where there are good ideas as to how that money might most effectively be used, then, of course, we will be very pleased to draw on those ideas, wherever they come from. The fact that we have a recovery phase in our economy will be shaped by the work that Jeremy Miles has been leading to put together a recovery plan for us in Wales, drawing on the best people we can bring together inside Wales, but having people from outside Wales, to make sure that we don't miss out on ideas that people are developing elsewhere, and to challenge us on our own thinking and make sure we are making the best possible fist of designing that recovery stage.

We monitor what we do. If you want just one single example of that in figures that the ONS produced only last week, I think it is over 30 per cent of firms in Wales have benefited from assistance provided, either by the UK Government or by the Welsh Government, in order to help them through the pandemic. It's 21 per cent of firms in Scotland; it's 14 per cent of firms in England. And those are ONS figures, which demonstrate, I think, that the impact of the assistance we've been able to mobilise in Wales has been felt strongly in our economy, and we now want the same approach to be adopted, with the same level of success, in helping the Welsh economy into the recovery phase.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

May I congratulate all the children who are back in school in Wales this week, even if it is part time, and all those who have worked so hard to get them back, not least your education Secretary, Kirsty Williams? I would have liked more children to have returned earlier, but I do not want to criticise the Welsh Government, cavil with what is happening versus what was promised, or make comparisons with England today.

First Minister, whatever our own particular views or interests, shouldn't we all respect that it is you, your Cabinet and Kirsty Williams who are responsible and have the democratic mandate to decide when and how schools should return? Can you confirm that, unlike the teaching unions, you must consider not only the interests of their members, including teacher safety and any now far lower risk of infection, but also the pressing need of many parents to get back to work, and, still more, the purpose of schools being to educate our children, who have already lost too much of that right?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank the Member for what he said about the efforts that have been made, and they have been made in the way that we try to do things in Wales, in that social partnership way, by bringing teacher unions, non-teacher unions, the local education authorities and the Welsh Government around the table together to craft a way ahead. I sometimes have felt, in the way that some of these arguments have played out publicly, that the word 'children' has not been given the prominence that it needed and deserves. In the end, the reason why we are committed to bringing young people back to school over these weeks is because of our concerns that those young people get a change to meet their teachers again, to catch up with their classmates, to be able to prepare for the summer, and it is their interests in the end—with all the others that we have to bear in mind—that need to, and we think do do, come out at the very top of our agenda.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

The First Minister speaks of social partnership, but an impression many parents have got over the last month or two is that, with powers split between Welsh Government, councils and schools themselves, the teaching unions may have been too dominant an aspect of that partnership. When you, First Minister, spoke about even giving consideration to schools coming back after half term, you quickly were pressed into clarifying that that wasn’t going to happen. It was said under union pressure. We then saw the chief medical officer say that schools returning in the second week of August would be the best, at least in terms of virus risks, but we were then told that wasn't happening because it wasn’t an attractive option to the unions. We then saw your education Secretary announce that schools would come back this week for four weeks, yet almost everywhere, that's not happening, and it will be three weeks. Again, we're told because that’s the position of the unions. Do you share any of that concern that the unions may have had too great an influence on what the timing and what the decisions have been, and what might be done about that?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I congratulate teachers in Wales for everything that they have done during this pandemic. We've had 450 schools open as hub schools throughout the experience, with teachers going in, on the front line, at the height of the pandemic, and doing that every single day, working all the way through their half term at the end of May. So, the big picture for me has been the enormous efforts that teachers, supported by their unions, have carried out here in Wales.

There are contractual rights that people have, and unions are there to speak up for their members where their contracts are concerned. Social partnership is never about cosy conversations. It's never about people avoiding difficult issues. We have sat round the table together with our partners in the local education authorities and the people who represent the workforce. We have forged a way together, which means that, uniquely in the United Kingdom, children in Wales are back in school today, and I think that is a very significant achievement, and I'm very glad we've been able to work with colleagues to bring it about.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

3. What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact of the coronavirus crisis on the Welsh economy? OQ55357

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member, Llywydd. The Welsh Government's chief economist provides regular advice on the impact of the coronavirus crisis on the Welsh economy. That advice is reported monthly to the COVID core group of Ministers and others, which meets every Wednesday.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the First Minister for that reply. After 20 years of devolution, 22 per cent of the people of Wales of working age are living in poverty, and the average disposable income in Wales is only three quarters of the average in the United Kingdom. Those in poverty are more likely to be hit by the economic impacts of COVID than anybody else. The Learning and Work Institute Cymru has said recently that Wales is more exposed than many other parts of the UK to the economic impact of lockdown, and we've got the highest proportion, at 18 per cent, of workers employed in industries most affected by lockdown measures. So, if unemployment goes up amongst those groups, we're going to be in a very serious economic predicament in Wales.

Cardiff University has shown in a paper published this week that Wales's lowest earners are 10 times more likely to have been affected by COVID-19 shutdown than those on the highest salaries. So, isn't it true, First Minister, that a harsher lockdown and a longer lockdown means that Wales will go backwards and those at the lowest levels of income in society are going to be the ones who suffer most? So, considering that the economic effects of the lockdown will hit the poorest hardest, how do you justify keeping Wales in lockdown whilst the rest of the United Kingdom opens up?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, while I don't disagree with some of the Member's diagnosis, I very much disagree with his description of the recipe. He is right to say that coronavirus has a disproportionate impact on some members of our society, and those most disadvantaged to begin with feel the impact of this disease most significantly. The best way to help them is to make sure that the Welsh economy has a smooth and reliable recovery from coronavirus—that we don't have a recovery in which we open up too much too soon and then see a clampdown being needed again so the economy goes into reverse.

So, he offers us a sort of Texas approach to coronavirus, in which you lift the lockdown rapidly, you let all sorts of things resume again because you think that's right for the economy, and, lo and behold, the virus is off circulating again everywhere and you have to clamp down all over again. That is what we're avoiding here in Wales in the way that we are doing things. We are reopening our economy, we are doing it step by step, we are monitoring it as we go, we are doing our best to make sure that we can have confidence in our economy and that we will not find ourselves in a position of having to put all of that into reverse, because nothing could be worse for the economy or for those people who rely on it.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

First Minister, last week, the UK Government introduced the Business and Planning Bill in Parliament, which included a set of urgent measures to help businesses adjust to new ways of working to respond to the current pandemic. The hospitality industry in Wales have said that it needs a clear road map for reopening and Government support to get back on its feet. So, I think it certainly will be important that, in the short term, any obstacles are removed that could get in the way, including easing restrictions in the planning and licensing system in particular. As I understand it, the planning Bill has a mix of measures, both reserved and devolved areas. How is the Welsh Government going to respond to the devolved areas and how is any legislation in particular going to support the hospitality sector?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, we've been in direct discussions with the hospitality sector over the last week and a half, looking for ways in which we might be able to reopen outdoor hospitality here in Wales with the necessary mitigating measures, and I'm grateful to the sector for all the ideas that they have contributed, for the work that they are doing with us to draw up guidance for the sector, in the hope that we will be able to do that alongside them. It has to be done in a way that puts the health of the public first, and that's what we're working on, and taking advice from our chief medical officer, of course, in the process.

The legislation in the House of Commons is, as Russell George said, a mixture of devolved and non-devolved. On the non-devolved side, it will passport licences that public houses, for example, have to serve alcohol indoors, will passport that to allow them to serve it outdoors. Other aspects will fall to legislation that is in the hands of the Senedd and we will think carefully about what we need to do there.

So, for example, to give the Member an idea of the complexity, which I'm sure he's alert to in any case, many cafes and restaurants may look to be able to operate outside on the pavement in front of their properties. We have to balance that with the rights of other users: disabled people, wheelchair users, people who are partially sighted—people who rely on being able to use pavements in a way that is unimpeded and don't cause difficulties to them. So, there is more than one interest to think of, and the way that we will do it in Wales is to work with the sector to find a proper balance between those things so we can do the things that are necessary to allow that sector to open up again, but we don't do it at the expense of rights that others have to lead their lives in ways that allow them to go about their lawful business unimpeded.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

First Minister, Jack Sargeant has already highlighted the crisis in the aviation sector, which is a major sector within the Welsh economy, and another sector in the Welsh economy is the steel industry, which is also facing very serious challenges. Last week, the UK Government seemed to have briefed the Financial Times that a request for funding from Tata would be approved, but the UK Government has yet to actually announce any such approval, and, as such, the industry doesn't know where it stands. Steelworkers and their families deserve better; they deserve certainty. Will you continue to pressurise the UK Government to actually approve this request for funding, because the customers of steel have basically disappeared because of the coronavirus? We need the industry to keep on going. It is critical to the Welsh economy and we need that support from the UK Government.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I completely agree with David Rees. I read that extended article in the Financial Times. It was clearly briefed by Whitehall sources, and it very directly implied that we were just about to get an announcement from the UK Government of dedicated support for the steel industry, an industry that this country will need when coronavirus is over, and the scale of support that is needed for that industry has to come from the UK Government. We continue to play our part with Tata directly in supporting skills and apprenticeships and with some localised environmental investment to assist the company, but the scale of support that the industry needs in a global crisis has to come from the UK Government. Having indicated that that help was just on its way, it's very disappointing that it hasn't materialised now for several days. The Chancellor is to make his announcement on support for the economy next week. We will be pressing the UK Government all the way through to make sure that support for the steel industry—a strategically important industry for the whole of the United Kingdom—is at the forefront of his thoughts in putting that package together.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

4. How will the Welsh Government use infrastructure projects to reinvigorate the Welsh economy in light of COVID-19? OQ55369

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank John Griffiths for that, Llywydd. The Welsh Government will use all opportunities, from small and local infrastructure projects to major national investments, to create jobs and to rebuild our economy through the pursuit of economic, social and environmental justice.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

First Minister, we know the pandemic has disproportionately affected the most vulnerable in our society, reinforcing existing inequalities of class, ethnicity, disability and gender. We now face an economic crisis and the prospect of further inequality and harm to those least able to withstand it. Infrastructure projects will be an important part of regenerating our economy and could also be part of addressing these social injustice imperatives. So, will contracts include clauses, requirements and fair work provision to ensure these capital projects offer opportunities, training and jobs for those most in need, and help build back better for everyone in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank John Griffiths for that important set of remarks and his question, Llywydd. He's right, of course, to point to the way in which the COVID crisis has had disproportionate impacts on different sectors of our society. I was very pleased last week to receive the report from Professor Emmanuel Ogbonna on the socioeconomic context of the impact of the crisis on people of black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds. When we let contracts for our infrastructure work, we will, of course, draw on the principles of our economic contract, in which the investment that the Welsh public makes derives a benefit for the Welsh public beyond simply the jobs created. So, employment levels, training, apprenticeships, wider community benefits, all of that will be at the centre of the way in which we construct those contracts—very much part of the contract that we have struck for the completion of the Heads of the Valleys road; a major infrastructure project that we were able to move forward last week. But those principles will be applied more generally in order to make sure that those people who have been most adversely affected by the impact of coronavirus have a disproportionately greater benefit from the rebuilding of our economy.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

First Minister, thank you for the response to John Griffiths there. Obviously, he represents a Newport constituency, where the M4 relief road could have been such a piece of major infrastructure. The alternatives to an M4 relief road I think are due to be presented to you shortly, and I imagine that you've already been given a rough indication of the cost of those alternatives. What is the range of those rough costs, and what have you done to secure any necessary Treasury support, having refused that support when, of course, you ditched the plan for the M4 relief road?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, the last part of that question is complete nonsense, Llywydd. What does the Member mean? There was no offer of support that was turned down, and I really think that is just absurd, and I have no idea where the Member got it from. I don't have any rough costs from their commission, because I'm waiting for their report. The work on the first set of recommendations that the commission made began earlier this week, and they are fully funded by the Welsh Government. I always said, Llywydd, that the original plan for the M4 relief road was costed at a billion pounds, and that the commission has first call on that in coming forward with alternative proposals so that we can deal with the very real issues there have been around Newport, but do it in a way that does not bring with it the enormous environmental disbenefits that the relief road would have brought.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

5. Will the First Minister provide an update on Welsh Government support for businesses affected by COVID-19? OQ55386

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that. Our £1.7 billion-worth package of support means Welsh businesses have access to the most generous help anywhere in the United Kingdom. Over 2,700 Caerphilly-based companies alone have benefited from business rate relief. The second phase of the economic resilience fund opened on Monday of this week.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Diolch, First Minister. Can I say, first of all, it's such a relief that this is the last week we'll have this wholly unsatisfactory way of doing business, and it'll be good to be back in a hybrid model next week, and I thank the Llywydd for helping with that decision?

Many businesses and charitable organisations in Caerphilly have been supported by Welsh Government in the form of grants and rate relief, and it's helped to plug the gap left by UK Government support. I welcome the announcement last week of Government support for those start-up firms who only began trading in 2019, meaning that they would have missed out on the UK Government's self-employment income support scheme. But I am aware of some small businesses in particular who are continuing to miss out. I was contacted by a constituent who runs a hairdressers in Bargoed. Her business is unable to receive any support because she's a sole trader and doesn't have to be VAT registered, which she isn't. This is unfair as similar businesses who are limited companies don't have to be VAT registered, nor can she claim any form of rate relief as she's only a tenant at her premises. As a result, she can no longer afford to pay her staff or her overheads. What more can the First Minister and the Welsh Government do to support her and other small businesses like hers who are rooted in our Valleys communities?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I thank Hefin David for what he said about the new £5 million grant supporting start-up businesses. We anticipate it will support up to 2,000 businesses in Wales, and it is an example of filling a gap in the schemes that the UK Government has devised. I always take this opportunity to recognise the help that the UK Government has provided, and to say that it is inevitable, in very large, very rapidly constructed schemes, that there will be some blunt edges and gaps that will emerge, and our £500 million economic resilience fund has always been aimed at finding the gaps in the schemes that the UK Government has put in place and then to try to fill them here in Wales. We aren't able to fill every gap; it's just not possible within the scope of what we have. But, we continue to review the economic resilience fund to see whether we can do more through it. Where there are examples where the structure of the help that is available creates gaps that firms fall through, then we're always open to hearing about that and to see if there are further ways in which we can assist.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leanne Wood. You need to unmute yourself, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Okay. Sorry, I thought I had. I want to ask about support for the arts. The arts are vitally important for our culture, for our language, and potentially for tourism as well. Many people working in the arts are freelancers or gig economy workers who may—or probably haven't had any support from the Government so far. Large audience events are unlikely to be safe for people in the old way soon, and so, what happens to the firm of public address system operators—four of them who work in my constituency—who are unable to have any work at the moment?

Would you be prepared to consider an idea that has been proposed to the Scottish Government for a national arts force, which would see the arts be a part of well-being and recovery, where musicians and artists can go into schools, hospitals and care homes, and even provide online courses? Imagine the PA firm being able to teach sound engineering skills to young people in the Rhondda throughout the summer holidays. Would you be prepared to look at that recommendation that has gone to the Scottish Government and consider a similar scheme to operate in Wales? We can't rely on the Westminster Government to plug this gap; it's something that the Welsh Government needs to do, and it needs to do it urgently.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I thank Leanne Wood for that. She'll know that my colleague Dafydd Elis-Thomas has published a lengthy written statement this week on support for the arts here in Wales. I'm very happy to look at the idea that Leanne Wood has set out. She's sounding quite like Franklin Delano Roosevelt in that, and a great deal more convincingly than others who have made claims to that mantle, if I may say so. So, we will, by all means, look at it.

This is another example, actually, Llywydd, of where the UK Government has constantly implied that it is on the brink of publishing a support package for a sector, just as it did for steel last week. So, for many weeks, it has trailed an imminent announcement about a package of support for the arts. That support package needs to come forward, and if it did, it would materially strengthen our ability to put into practice the sort of scheme that Leanne Wood has talked about this morning.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

6. What assessment has the First Minister made of the effect of lockdown on educational attainment in North Wales? OQ55364

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, no research of which I am aware suggests that the effect of lockdown on education attainment has varied by geography. Our focus has been on vulnerable or disadvantaged learners, wherever they live in Wales.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you. First Minister, a major study of home schooling during lockdown by University College London's Institute of Education has highlighted some worrying findings about how children's education in Wales may be suffering. They suggest that, on your watch, children in Wales are doing less schoolwork and receiving less online education than their peers across the rest of the UK while schools have been shut down. Will your Government commission an inquiry to look at why and how children in Wales appear to have been let down so badly by those entrusted with their education?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I certainly wouldn't be prepared to do that on the back of one study that I've not myself had any opportunity to look at. I think that there have been some outstanding examples in schools across Wales of the way in which teachers have been able to respond to the challenges of coronavirus and providing an education in the context that it has created. What we are now determined to do is to create a set of national expectations that mean that all schools in Wales in the autumn are able to draw on the experience of the very best to make sure that there are minimum attendance standards in school, that there are standards for frequency of contact when not in school and that quality of work assessment, marking and feedback standards are common across the whole of Wales.

We will deploy Estyn inspectors from September to make sure that good practice is spread throughout the educational system in Wales, to make sure that the very best, which has been, I think, outstanding where it has been on offer, is on offer more broadly to all children in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to today's agenda. Draft business for the next three sitting weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Trefnydd, I would be grateful if you could investigate the issue of written oral questions that have not been answered, dating back, in my case, as far as 2016, from Welsh Government Ministers. I know that this is an issue that has been raised a number of times in this Chamber, but I do feel now that we need to get to the bottom of why written questions are simply not answered by Welsh Government Ministers. Can you please investigate? According to the Table Office, some of my questions haven't been answered dating back as far as 2016. I'd be grateful if you could investigate this, business manager, with the Table Office and provide a statement to Members of this Senedd with an explanation of why this has occurred.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'll certainly investigate why those responses haven't arrived, certainly going back to such a date. If you let me have the numbers that would be helpful, otherwise I can liaise directly with the Table Office to get that information for you.FootnoteLink

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leanne Wood. You need to unmute yourself again, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

I don't have a question, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Oh, that's okay. Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

I wonder if it would be possible to have a Government time debate on the planning system in Wales, and in particular with regard to the role of the Planning Inspectorate. It's becoming increasingly clear to me and many other Assembly Members that there are real question marks about the fitness for purpose of the Planning Inspectorate and whether we should now be moving towards a system whereby local decisions by councils on planning matters should be prioritised to a far higher degree, rather than the way in which it seems to happen at the moment with the way in which the Planning Inspectorate seems to override local interest. It seems to me that it's an important and long-overdue debate, and I wonder if Government can make time for such a debate.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank Mick Antoniw for that suggestion. Over the summer, I'll be having some discussions with colleagues about the debates that they would wish to bring forward, and I know that they'll be considering the requests that colleagues bring forward today, and have done in recent times as well, in terms of setting out that agenda of Government business for the next term, which I hope will, to a degree, allow us to return to more usual and more normal kinds of tabling of business. But, obviously, we will see where we are in the autumn term.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Trefnydd, will you ask the Minister for economy to come forward with a statement to confirm who exactly is entitled to receive a business support package from the economic recovery fund during the pandemic? There is still much confusion as to who qualifies, as in the case of my constituent who has three businesses, is paying three lots of tax for them, but because they're run from the same address, he has been given assistance for only one business, saying that he does not qualify. So, before his other two businesses, employing several people, are beyond repair, what financial assurance can my constituent be afforded?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank Caroline Jones for raising this. I do think that the criteria for the grants related to non-domestic rates are quite clear, in the sense that they are set out on the Business Wales website. The situation you describe certainly sounds as if it would only be the one business that would be eligible for the business rate related grant, because those grants are directly related to those businesses that are paying the non-domestic rates.

That said, other businesses are being asked to look to the economic resilience fund, which opened for phase 2 earlier on this week, to seek support for businesses that aren't eligible for the non-domestic relief-related grants. So, we've tried to put in support, as the First Minister's said, in order to plug those gaps as far as is possible.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Leader of the house, could I have two statements, if possible? I appreciate that they'll be done in a written form. One in relation to the Government missing its deadline for farm payments yesterday—30 June itself is the deadline to make all farm payments other than complex payments. I'm led to believe that the Government has missed that deadline and will be subject to EU fines for missing the deadline. We now need to understand what the new timeline will be for farm businesses to receive this money, especially with the COVID crisis impacting on many farm businesses, and the flow of cash into those businesses.

And secondly, the Auditor General for Wales's report yesterday touched on a very pertinent issue that has been plaguing the rural development plan and its delivery right the way through its lifetime since 2014. The auditor general did a report in 2018 that highlighted the same problems that were highlighted by the report yesterday. And, sadly, it does seem as if much of this money goes to favoured companies, individuals or Government agencies themselves, as the auditor general highlights. It is vitally important that the Minister responds to this report in a timely manner and that Members see that response so that, with the remaining time for the rural development plan, we can have confidence that the remaining money will not be frittered away and will be used to best effect.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I will certainly make sure that the Minister is aware of your request for a statement and clarity on farm payments, particularly in the timing of those payments within this financial year.

On the second issue that you raise about the Wales Audit Office report, obviously, we're grateful for the work that was done there, and we'll ensure that officials respond to them in due course. I do know that officials will need to provide evidence to the Public Accounts Committee in respect of the approach taken to the assessment of value for money through the RDP, and I think that that is a proper forum for those issues to be discussed and explored.

As part of our ongoing review of the delivery of the RDP, officials had already identified the issues described by Audit Wales and have taken action to remedy them. The report's conclusions provide some helpful guidance to ensure that all the necessary actions have been implemented. And I can add that officials have reviewed the projects concerned to ensure that they do, in practice, deliver value for money, and, where appropriate, have taken action to ensure that we do achieve value for money, including retendering some of those projects. So, I hope that that's helpful as an interim update before officials give evidence to the Public Accounts Committee.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Trefnydd, can I call for a Welsh Government statement on when driving lessons, theory tests and practical tests will be able to recommence in Wales? There are a lot of people across the country, particularly young people, who were in the middle of taking their driving lessons and have been unable to complete their courses. In addition to that, there are those who've passed their theory tests, and the validity of those can expire before they're able to take the actual practical driving test, because of the coronavirus shutdown. And, of course, there are many driving schools with instructors on the English side of the border who are losing out to business to driving schools on the other side of the Welsh border, simply because of the current situation.

The UK Government has announced that it's going to be recommencing these things on 4 July, and I think it would be great if we could get to a situation in Wales where we were able to announce the same as soon as possible.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, a really wide range of circumstances are considered throughout our three-weekly rolling review of the regulations, and, clearly, we are considering many different types of employment and employment circumstances. So, obviously, there are circumstances across Wales—I've had guitar teachers who teach at home, for example, wanting to know what the rules mean for them. So, I know that we do need to provide as much clarity as we can, which we're seeking to do through our three-weekly reviews, but I will make sure that I express your concerns particularly about driving instructors and people undertaking driving lessons, with a view to taking tests, in those discussions that we'll be continuing to have this week.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition (in respect of his 'law officer' responsibilities

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Counsel General in respect of his law officer responsibilities, and the first question is from Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

1. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on the impact of the Covid-19 crisis on human rights in Wales? OQ55380

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government is committed to upholding human rights, a responsibility that it takes very seriously. The COVID crisis has not diminished that commitment. Those rights are as important now as at any time in the past. The Welsh Government continues to ensure the protection of those rights throughout the management of the COVID-19 crisis.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his response and for his reassurances. He will, of course, as I'm sure we all are, be aware that this crisis has impacted more seriously on some sections of the population than others. We know, for example, about the economic impact on women and the longer term impact of having to do increased domestic duties at the same time as working from home, and, of course, the impact of the virus on black people and people of colour.

Is the Counsel General confident that the advice that he's been able to provide has ensured that the Welsh Government has exercised its public sector equality duty in how it has responded? Anecdotally, it would be my impression that certainly efforts have been done to do so, but it is, I'm sure he would agree with me, very important that as we move out of the crisis we ensure that these disproportionate impacts on already vulnerable sections of our community are built into our plans to rebuild and to develop particularly the economy.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I couldn't agree more with the Member than in her point acknowledging the disproportionate impact on certain groups in our community of COVID. She identified a number of communities that have been particularly adversely affected. And I just want to associate myself with the point that the First Minister made in answers to his questions earlier, which is to say that our focus very much is on ensuring that groups that have been disproportionately adversely affected are given additional support in the process of recovery from COVID.

Just on the point in relation specifically to the public sector equality duty, those assessments have been made. She will perhaps have noted, and if she hasn't, I'll draw her attention to, the document that we published on Monday of this week that describes the impact assessments that have been undertaken across the piece in relation to the various judgments that we've had to make as a Government in relation to COVID-19. She will understand, and I hope Members generally will understand, that the circumstances at the outset of the process in which decisions were being made at very great urgency will have meant that we had to take a slightly different approach to the immediate judgments at the start. But I refer her and other Members to that document, which I hope gives a clear explanation of the approach we've taken throughout to assessing impact, mindful of the fact that, as the First Minister has said himself, the equality lens is essential to the steps we are taking, in particular at the moment, in coming out of lockdown.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Counsel General, you'll be aware that one of the groups most affected by the lockdown has been children, and in light of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, articles 28 and 29, I just wondered what advice you're giving on how we're going to ensure that all children are going to be able to get an education going forward in September.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Jenny Rathbone for that question. The decision to increase operations in schools from 29 June was guided, really, by an approach based on equality of access. All learners have a right to education and to be supported in that learning, as is clear from the question that she puts to me, and the phased approach aims to mitigate the adverse impact on learners caused by COVID-19. As a Government, we remain completely committed to protecting the rights of children as set out in the convention to which she refers, and we're obviously mindful of our obligations in relation to children under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 as well. So, I want to reassure the Member that those considerations remain at the forefront of our thinking in terms of the return of operations to school and more broadly, and also to remind her and others of the work that we did to consult with children and young people in relation to the impact of coronavirus on their lives, which was itself a reflection of the obligations on us under article 12, I think it is, of the convention, which gives the right to a voice, as it were, to children and young people.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Jenny Rathbone makes a very important point about children's right to an education, which is enshrined not just in the UNCRC, but in our own children's rights Measure. I know, Minister, that you've met with the UNCRC monitoring group during the pandemic, and one of the concerns I've had is that, whenever I've tabled questions asking how children's rights are being considered in the decisions taken in lockdown, there is very little evidence of Government being able to show their workings in this area. What assurances can you give that, going forward, you will ensure that the appropriate child rights impact assessment and other considerations relating to children's rights are actually prioritised, so that we can genuinely put children who have suffered so much in this pandemic at the centre of our decision making? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Lynne Neagle for that question. I can give her that assurance, that those priorities and principles remain fundamental to our approach. I know that Julie Morgan wrote to Lynne Neagle in her capacity as the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee earlier last month, and described the work in relation to education and childcare settings around impact assessments to understand fully the impact on children of the decisions being taken in that area. I hope that she will also have been able to see the document published on Monday, which gives a little more information about some of those considerations, but I absolutely want to give her the reassurance that those considerations are fundamental to the decisions that we are taking, and, again, were one of the key issues relating to our prioritising the ability of children to start returning to school at the start of this week.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

2. What legal advice has the Counsel General given to the Welsh Government in relation to improving children’s access to mental health support in Wales? OQ55373

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Children's access to mental health support is a key priority in the Government's 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan, and particularly so during COVID-19. In addition to pre-existing children's mental health services, in response to COVID, we've given additional funding for online mental health toolkits via Hwb and advice-line services for children.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. Accessing support for childhood mental health issues should be a simple and smooth process. However, it has been found that only 43 per cent of children and young people in Wales would be confident seeking help from a mental health team, and 39 per cent from school counselling. Regional partnership boards, of course, are required by law to prioritise the integration of services for children with complex needs. However, we now know that two health boards have recently disputed the responsibility for the health needs of a young person, and that a child was kept in a mental health facility for weeks, despite having no mental health diagnosis. Will you investigate whether regional partnership boards have been rightly prioritising services for children, and if there is any such failure to have done so, has this seen a breach of article 24, that is the right to the best possible healthcare for children?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that supplementary question, some of which takes me into areas that are the responsibility of the Minister for health, principally, so I'll make sure that he is aware of the question that she has asked. In relation to the question on convention rights, of course, that is a question that remains continuously in the forefront of our reflections as a Government. But, as I say, in relation to the policy points that she has raised in her question, I'll make sure the Minister for health has heard her question.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

3. What legal representations has the Counsel General made on behalf of the Welsh Government regarding inter-governmental structures within the UK? OQ55360

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I make frequent representations on behalf of the Welsh Government on inter-governmental relations and the structures required to support co-operation and co-ordination among UK Governments. Effective inter-governmental working has never been more important as we deal with the COVID-19 pandemic and as we approach, at the same time, the end of the European transition period.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you, Minister. In your role, you will, of course, have an eye to the creaking infrastructure of inter-governmental structures across the UK. It was being tested before COVID-19, it was being tested before the EU withdrawal process and was, indeed, being tested year after year, as the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the great metropolitan city regions of England grew more muscular and gained more powers and authority so that decisions are taken at the right level and as close to people as possible. So, Counsel General, what hope do you have that the creaking inter-governmental constitutional apparatus of the UK, based on centuries-old structures that have struggled, frankly, to keep up with the increasing pace of devolution and principles of subsidiarity, can be made good to reflect the powers and strengths of devolved Governments, of this Senedd and of the people of Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that question. Whether it's in 'Brexit and Devolution' or more latterly in 'Reforming our Union', we as a Government have sought consistently to be constructive advocates for a series of reforms for a better functioning union that gives full voice to the democratic legitimacy of the Senedd and the Welsh Government here in Wales, and establishes inter-governmental relations on the basis of equality of participation and parity of esteem. The arrangements we have at the moment are very far from meeting those tests, which we feel are the right tests for Wales.

As you yourself say, Huw, in relation to the process of engaging across the UK on European exit, there have been many, many examples of the shortcomings in those relationships and those structures. I think most recently—you asked for information about representations—I wrote to Michael Gove asking, effectively, for a reboot of the engagement in relation to EU exit. We still hope for progress in relation to the inter-governmental review, which is the fundamental review of Government relations across the board. I was hoping that we would have made more progress in the last few weeks since the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations) in May than we have been able to do. The Dunlop review remains unpublished, on the UK Government's part, and I'm sure we would all share a wish for that to be published.

I think most recently, the inter-governmental workings in relation to COVID have been instructive in this sense. At the start of the process, clearly, COBRA was the forum in which decisions were made, but at no point did anyone reach for the JMC structures as a means of engaging on an ongoing basis. And I think that will tell us how, in truth, all Governments in all parts of the UK regard those structures as not fit for purpose and in need of pretty fundamental reform.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

In addition to what you've just said, Minister, there are a number of examples over the past few weeks of the UK Government ignoring the views that you as Welsh Government have taken and have placed in correspondence—for example, extending the transition period and many other issues that you've just mentioned. So, would you agree that your stance of being content within the union and continuing to be ignored within that—would you agree that that doesn't meet the needs of the people of Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, with all due respect, those aren't the two options. The choice is that we have a form of a union where the voice and the views of the people of Wales, through the Senedd, are reflected appropriately in the relationship and the inter-governmental system. We're not saying that the current situation can't be improved—quite the contrary. We're not defending the status quo, but making a constructive effort to put an alternative system in place across the United Kingdom.

The time is well past where this became critical, and the Welsh Government on all occasions has taken a constructive and co-operative stance, and described the system that we would want to see in the interests of Wales. There are demands now—given our specific experience in the process of exiting the European Union, and also in terms of the inter-governmental structures in the context of COVID, this now has to happen as a matter of urgency.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

4. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided on the effect of Covid-19 regulations on the Welsh Government's ability to fulfil its policies? OQ55383

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government have made a number of regulations in response to the pandemic pursuant to the Coronavirus Act 2020 and Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. All of this legislation has been made following detailed consideration of policy, legal and appropriate scientific and expert public health advice to enable us to respond to these extraordinary circumstances that we faced in Wales.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

We know that some form of lockdown restrictions will remain in place for quite some time yet, perhaps even until next year. So, how does the Government intend to mitigate the impact of the regulations on the creative industries and the arts? And what role will this sector play in your post-COVID recovery framework? After all, the arts are crucial, as they always are in times of crisis, as we try to understand and express what we are going through. Will your Government follow the example of nations such as Scotland and New Zealand and invest in the sector as part of your recovery work? And will you make progress, without awaiting any additional funding that may or may not come from Westminster, in announcing that the arts are a key part of your post-COVID recovery plan?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Siân Gwenllian for that question, and, in that question, you highlight one of the very important elements in the COVID context— there's an economic element, there's a health impact, of course, and there's a broader social impact too, but the arts, as you describe, have a very important role in bringing us through this period. The sector has suffered a substantial detrimental effect over the past few months, and, as you said in your question, that's likely to go on for some time.

I will echo what the First Minister said in response to questions earlier and the question from Leanne Wood about our efforts to do what we can to support this sector, and what Dafydd Elis-Thomas has stated recently is a key part of that. I would like to live in a world where we wouldn't have to consider what happens in Westminster in terms of funding, but, unfortunately, that is a core element of the decisions that we make, in terms of the resources available to us. But, as the First Minister said in response to questions earlier, we would want to see the role of the sector secured for the future in response to COVID.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

5. What legal advice has the Counsel General given to the Welsh Government on whether its response to Covid-19 is in accordance with human rights legislation? OQ55372

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government takes its obligations under human rights legislation very seriously. It's clear that there are positive obligations to act, as well as an obligation not to interfere with human rights without clear justification. European Convention on Human Rights implications continue to form part of the Government's considerations in the context of our response to COVID-19.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. Now, despite the right to respect for private and family life, many individuals, friends and families are being kept apart here in Wales by the 5-mile rule. Despite the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, places of worship were closed, even for private prayer. The Older People's Commissioner for Wales has raised concerns that older people's rights may not have been sufficiently protected, and the Children's Commissioner for Wales has written about how children and young people have seen changes to their ability to access human rights. Do you agree with me that an independent inquiry should be established urgently, so as to start considering the impact of Welsh Government decisions on adherence to human rights legislation in Wales during this COVID-19 pandemic? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that supplementary. The first, rather obvious, point to make is that the 5-mile rule is not, in the way that she describes it, a rule. I just want to make it clear that it is a rule of thumb and guidance; I've somewhat lost track of the number of times that point has been made in the Siambr, but happy to make it again for the record, in case there's any misunderstanding.

On her broader point about human rights, I think it's important that we approach these questions with clear sightedness. Each of the decisions taken has been evaluated against, firstly, our obligations in this area, but also our commitment as a Government in this area. Each of the decisions taken has to pass a series of tests, that they are necessary, that they are proportionate, and are maintained under constant review. The task involved is to infringe and interfere with people's rights consistent only with that set of tests, and weighing against those rights the risks, which are obvious, to public health. I'm confident that that has been the process that the Government has followed across the piece in relation to each of those decisions, and I absolutely acknowledge the point that she's made in relation to the issues highlighted by commissioners. It is important that those issues are raised and that they are part of this debate and part of this discussion, because the fundamental commitment that we have as a Government to human rights, as I said earlier, is undiminished.

And so we welcome the opportunity to discuss those issues and to be scrutinised on those issues. And I would be content to put in the Senedd Library, Llywydd, a note that describes the decision-making process in relation to some of the restrictions that have engaged the legal tests that I've talked about, so that Members can understand perhaps more fully some of the judgments that are made along the way.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

6. What recent discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers regarding the legal steps being taken by the women against state pension inequality against the changes made to their pension entitlement by the UK Government? OQ55379

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government has repeatedly expressed concerns to the UK Government about women who've had their state pension age raised without effective or without sufficient notification. The matter will be considered by the Court of Appeal in July, and I'll carefully consider the judgment of the Court of Appeal when it's handed down.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his reply, and also for the Welsh Government's consistent and constructive approach to this very important matter. He refers to the ongoing legal action. Does he agree with me that the UK Government should now address this injustice and come forward with an appropriate redress scheme before further legal steps are taken? They have shown themselves willing to make very substantial investments in protecting our economy, and that is incredibly welcome. In the context of that ability and willingness to make that incredible investment, does he agree with me that it's time that they make a similar investment in addressing the injustice that the women born in the 1950s have faced, and does he also agree with me that, of course, there would be potentially an additional benefit to doing so, because it would enable some of those women to retire as they had planned to do, potentially releasing some roles in the workforce for workers who are not yet ready to retire?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I thank Helen Mary Jones for that further question, and, if I may say, for the constructive way in which she's engaged throughout on this question, as have other Members as well, of course. The case that she invites me to make is the case that we have been making as a Government to UK Government Ministers. I think I'm right in saying that the last letter that we wrote advocating this position didn't even get a reply, as it happens, but the contents of it will not have been new to the UK Government; we have consistently made the case for intervention on the grounds of equity in this question.

She links, I think, in a very important way the experience of the women who are affected with the experience of the last few months and the impact of coronavirus, which has been disproportionate on many of those women. Women are overrepresented in sectors that have been subject to lockdown, for example, and there will be women who are not able to work, but also not getting access to their pensions, who will feel a particular financial burden as a consequence of the confluence of those two things. And I do think that that puts a special obligation on the UK Government to act in these particular circumstances, and, along with her, I very much hope that they will do so.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

7. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the implementation of the recommendations of the Thomas Commission on Justice in Wales? OQ55377

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, responding to the coronavirus pandemic has, I'm afraid, inevitably affected the pace of work to implement the Thomas commission recommendations. We nevertheless continue to make progress, pursuing those recommendations within our areas of responsibility and continuing to make the case for change to the UK Government, which has committed to discussions both at ministerial and official level.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Presiding Officer, I'm very pleased to hear that from the Counsel General, and to hear that the Welsh Government are at least seeking to make progress on this matter, in the most difficult of circumstances. But, of course, it is these most difficult of circumstances that demonstrate the necessity of moving quickly on this agenda. We have seen how the Welsh prison population has been the worst affected across these islands by COVID-19, that the current structures—although some people may believe this is an academic conversation—have real-life impacts on people, and people are suffering today, both within the current prison population, but also the wider population who've been through the criminal justice system, because of the failures of the system. The Thomas commission couldn't have been clearer that we require urgent change to this system to make it fit for purpose to serve the interests of people across the whole of this country. I hope that the Minister will be able to continue making this case, and I hope he and other Ministers will also be able to demonstrate the impact of the failure of the UK Government to recognise these matters on people in the middle of this pandemic crisis.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Alun Davies for the question. There have been aspects of progress; I want to reassure him in relation to that. So, the Civil Procedure Rule Committee have recently agreed to make it compulsory, for example, for cases against Welsh public bodies to be heard in Wales, where there was challenge to the lawfulness of their decisions. And I was also very pleased to see that the Solicitors Regulation Authority have committed now to make the solicitors qualifying examination qualification available in Welsh. Both of those are recommendations of the Thomas commission. Whilst important, I'm not suggesting they are the central recommendations, obviously, but just to demonstrate that, where progress has been possible, we have been pursuing that, together with our partners.

On the larger point that he makes in relation to what we have perhaps learnt in the last few weeks in particular about the impact of the nature of our devolution settlement in justice on outcomes, which is fundamentally the most important case to make, I think it does demonstrate the shortcomings of the current arrangements. And whereas public bodies in Wales have done their utmost, I think, and their level best, to work together in extraordinarily difficult circumstances, I do think those have been to some extent hampered in this space by the nature of our devolution settlement. And I made that point to the Lord Chancellor in a recent discussion with him; I know he also is focused on outcomes. And some of those practical points around the prison population in particular—that conversation that I had with him, together with the First Minister and the Chief Whip, also explored the establishment of the first residential women's centre in Wales, for example, so, hopefully, again, making practical progress in some of those areas. But I would certainly echo the larger point that he makes about what we've learnt about the devolution settlement in the last few weeks and months.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Counsel General.

4. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Minister for Finance, and the first question is from Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of Covid-19 on its local taxation policy? OQ55374

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We're working closely with local authorities to monitor the impact of COVID-19 on the income from local taxes. Our package of rates relief is providing £580 million of support to ratepayers during 2020-21, and our council tax reduction scheme provides guaranteed support to low-income households.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Minister. Local authorities were already struggling financially pre-pandemic. Services were being cut, yet our constituents found their council tax bills skyrocketing. The coronavirus outbreak has placed an enormous strain on local authorities as they form the front line in the public defence against the pandemic. Councils across Wales have risen to the challenge of supplying food to the shielded, housing the homeless and tracing the sick. Council services will cost more than they did pre-pandemic, as the cost of mitigation measures have to be factored in. Minister, can you assure the people of Wales that the Welsh Government will fund the additional expense, that council taxes will not go up as a result, and that my constituents—many of whom are already struggling financially—will not have to foot the bill? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank Caroline Jones for raising this issue. Local government finance is particularly important during the COVID-19 crisis because they are very much, alongside their colleagues in health, on the front line in terms of supporting people and our communities. And that's one of the reasons why I've been able to recognise that pressure by providing over £180 million thus far to the local government hardship fund. That fund allows local authorities across Wales to draw down funding to support them, for example, in meeting the additional costs of providing social care, in terms of providing additional accommodation to help people who are rough-sleeping off the streets, and also to help them in their desire to support low-income families who are now eligible for free school meals.

Alongside that, we recognise that local authorities have also experienced a significant amount of lost income. In normal times, local authorities would be getting income from the leisure centres, the catering services they provide and from parking and so on. So, a significant amount of that £180 million is there to support local authorities with the income that they have lost this year as well. I'm pleased that we've been able to ensure that local authorities haven't had the kind of 10 years that local authorities across the border in England have had, which means they are better placed to face this crisis, but I absolutely recognise that they need to do it with Welsh Government as their partners.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Caroline Jones has focused on the council tax aspect of the local taxation issue. If I can focus on the business rates side of things, the Welsh Conservatives have long called for a whole look at the structure of business rates in Wales and business rates support, and the possibility of taking businesses with a rateable value of less than £15,000 out of paying altogether.

Minister, I appreciate that at the moment it's a very careful balancing act that you've got to do, between making sure that local authorities have the right level of taxation and that businesses are supported. Can I ask, as we come out of the pandemic and come out of the lockdown, that you do look again at the way that business rates work in Wales, so that those businesses that need as much money as possible at the moment to invest in the future and to employ people will be able to do so? And I think that a look at the whole business rate regime and easing the burden on businesses is one way that you can do that.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm really keen to explore what more we could do or what we could do differently, in fact, in the field of local government finance, and particularly of course non-domestic rates, but also council tax, because they are two pillars that support local government. That's one of the reasons why I commissioned a range of research that will help us understand what the options are for the future. So, we have Bangor University looking at the potential of a local land value tax and we published that report in March of this year. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has undertaken some research on council tax revaluation and reform, and that was published in April of this year. And then Policy in Practice has been doing work, looking at the council tax reduction scheme. There was an interim report published in January and we expect the final report to be published very shortly. And then another piece of work that we expect in September looks at local taxes based on income, so that would be quite a radical approach there.

So, I'm really keen that all of these pieces of research are there in the public domain—there for all parties and all interested parties to be considering ahead of the next Senedd elections, so that we consider what the way forward might be. I'm not interested in change for the sake of it, but I do recognise that there are significant improvements that we can continue to make to non-domestic rates and council tax.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

2. How will the Welsh Government distribute the £78 million earmarked as part of the local government hardship fund within the budget in order to help local authorities manage loss of income due to Covid-19? OQ55361

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Minister for Housing and Local Government is currently working with the Welsh Local Government Association to determine the most appropriate basis for support. But it will be through a claims process.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, thank you very much for that answer, because I think I'm right in saying that, speaking generally, councils are reclaiming their COVID-related expenditure from you monthly in arrears. Can you say whether you've refused to cover any of the expenditure presented to you, even with that evidence? And have you got any steer yet about what kind of evidence you'll be seeking from councils to support claims of lost income as, presumably, it's not just extrapolations from previous years?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I understand that there is a very rigorous process in place, as you'd expect, in terms of looking at those claims that are coming through from local government. The Minister for Housing and Local Government and her officials are leading on that, although my understanding is that some claims are rejected on the basis that they potentially are not directly COVID pressure related, or they are potentially lost income now, but income that could be recovered later in the year. So, we have to test all of these things really robustly, because we only have a very, very finite pot of money to be tackling the COVID crisis with and it's really important that we're able to do so in a really robust way and to evidence our decisions as well. Because I'm always really aware that, although we're taking decisions very quickly at the moment, we will need to, in time, account for all of those decisions, in terms of getting the best value for the public purse.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Now, David Phillips, at the Institute for Fiscal Studies, has argued that the story of the fiscal response by devolved Governments during this pandemic will be one where the said Governments are hampered by limited reserves, constrained borrowing powers, as well as the funding coming to them from UK Government. Now, the Minister has indicated that she has been in discussions with UK Treasury regarding the relaxation of fiscal powers. Could she give us an update about when Welsh Government can expect to see some of that flexibility being introduced?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, I’d be happy to. I last discussed these specific issues with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on Friday of last week. And he indicated that the summer economic statement will be forthcoming, and then we’ll have a further conversation after that in terms of the fiscal flexibilities that we’ve requested. And just to recap, for people who aren’t familiar with those flexibilities, we’re seeking an ability to draw down more from the Wales reserve, to borrow more, to remove the borrowing cap, and also to be able to switch capital to revenue. Some of that and how far we want to take things will depend, in large part, on the statement that the Chancellor makes next week, and we will have a better understanding of the funding that we can expect to take us through the rest of this financial year.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Okay. Thank you for that response. To much fanfare yesterday, of course, the Prime Minister announced his build back better plan, an investment of £5 billion to be brought forward. Apart from that seeming an almost ridiculously small amount, given the scale of the challenge that we face, not just in Wales, but across the UK, it seems that not a single penny of that investment could be identified as coming to Wales. Now, as well as raising our collective voice, as a nation, to demand that that is changed, I think we have to be prepared also to say, ‘If they won’t do it for us, we’ll do what we can ourselves.’ And we need a rethink, I think, on so many levels: on the scale of investment we need in Wales and how to deliver it and how to prioritise it; on the fiscal flexibility we need; on reforming taxation even. So, is Government ready to begin or join us in that reform discussion right now, because the quicker we start looking for those innovative ways forward, the quicker we’re surely more likely to find them?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Rhun ap Iorwerth is entirely correct that yesterday's announcement from the Prime Minister was a complete non-event, in the sense that there's not a single additional penny coming to Wales as a result of the statement yesterday, certainly not this year, and all that's happening is that funding is being reprofiled for future projects. So, there was nothing of interest or significance to us here in Wales. That said, we recognise how important capital spend is going to be in the recovery, which is why we're pulling together the programmes that we think will be, and which are really shovel ready in terms of being able to hit the ground as soon as we're able to now, as we move into that recovery phase.

Local government is also working really hard to identify shovel-ready projects right across Wales, so that we are able to get that geographical spread of investment, bearing in mind that some communities are going to be hit particularly hard by the economic fallout of the coronavirus as well. And, of course, we have our Wales infrastructure investment plan, which contains billions of pounds of potential investment as well, so that will be really important.

And finally, I should mention, of course, our plans for twenty-first century schools continue. Our plans in Wales would spend £2 billion over the next five years, and I think that that level of ambition just dwarfs what the Prime Minister announced yesterday for England.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Again, thank you for that response. The one thing I would say: with previous infrastructure development plans that were in place, they really need to be consigned to history, given now the scale of our understanding of the challenge that we have, which is at a different level to what we had previously. It needs to be rebuilt.

I'd like to finally just look at, as businesses are gradually reopening, not all of them are able to move at the same pace as others. One support package that was a lifeline, of course, was the non-domestic rates grants. Will there be another round of NDR grants available for those businesses who are unable to reopen? And also, on tourism and hospitality in particular—facing a full year of little profit, even if some of them are able to open now—what discussions have you had with the economy Minister to make a financial support package available to those sectors and for the longer term as a matter of urgency?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'll be completely honest, and the level of what we are able to provide in terms of cash straight into the pockets of businesses here in Wales will depend, I think, in large part, on what our financial package looks like in Wales for the rest of the year. So, next Wednesday, we'll have a statement from the Chancellor, which will set out what we would expect to receive from the UK Government in revenue terms for the rest of the year, and I think that we will need to look at that, in terms of the recovery, but also alongside the ongoing pressures that we know we have in terms of dealing with the coronavirus crisis, which still hasn’t left us, despite the loosening of lockdown. So, I can't give any commitment to further grants today.

However, what I will say is that we recognise how important the coronavirus job retention scheme has been for particular sectors. Ken Skates and I wrote jointly to the Chancellor on that specific point, highlighting the need for continued support for specific sectors—so, giving tourism as an example—and also for those businesses who still can't open as a result of the lockdown or the restrictions that remain on particular kinds of businesses, and we'll continue to make those arguments.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the recent news about job losses at Airbus has demonstrated the need for support for Welsh businesses at this very difficult time, and that includes the UK Government's furloughing scheme and, of course, Welsh Government support. Now, out of the £500 million pledge for the economic resilience fund, it seems that less than half of that has been used so far. Could you tell us a little bit more about how these allocations are being made, exactly how much of that money has been spent, and how are you as finance Minister ensuring that allocations are building effective resilience in communities affected by closures and job losses?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think the example that Nick Ramsey has given in relation to the aerospace industry just demonstrates how our support for the economy in Wales has to be a team effort between the UK Government and Welsh Government. Some of these sectors and some of these industries and businesses are so huge and are so strategically important that it is important that the UK Government also steps up to the mark. We talked about Tata, of course, during First Minister's questions today. So, I think it is important to work together to support businesses, and for each of us to do our bit in that.

In terms of the economic resilience fund, we have only allocated a part of that so far, and that's important because we wanted to hold some of that back to help with the recovery. So, our focus in the short term has been shoring up businesses, helping them get through the immediate crisis, but obviously the focus has to turn to recovery and supporting businesses to grow and supporting businesses to develop.

We've also been really focused on filling those gaps, so, again, working to ensure that everything that we do doesn't replicate what's available elsewhere but augments it, and I think that the figure that the ONS has provided, which shows that more than 30 per cent of Welsh businesses have now received support from either the Welsh Government or the UK Government, as compared to 21 per cent in Scotland and 14 per cent in England, shows how important it is that the Welsh Government seeks to augment what the UK Government is able to do. So, they will have a really important role in terms of Airbus and other large employers.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister. I think you're exactly right to say that this is a two-pronged approach. It is important that, along with the UK Government efforts, we do see that support from the Welsh Government, such as from the economic resilience fund. So, if you can keep us updated on those allocations, that would be helpful.

You mentioned, as we move out of lockdown and rebuilding the economy, that that won't just involve protecting existing jobs in their entirety—I think we have to recognise that that's not going to be possible—and it won't involve simply returning to the old ways of working. It will also involve allocations of funding for upskilling our workforce so that it's fully prepared to meet the global challenges ahead. According to an Open University report published last November, skills shortages are costing Welsh businesses £350 million a year, with many trapped in low-skill traps, and I imagine that those figures are even worse now with the pandemic having taken its duration. How are you ensuring that the allocations made in the recent supplementary budget will be properly focused on rebuilding the economy, particularly a greener, more modern economy, so that we are not just trying to meet the challenges of the past, but we're making sure that Wales is at the forefront of meeting the challenges ahead?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The supplementary budget was more of a response to the immediate pandemic, so it was responding to the acute issues that we were facing, particularly in health and social care and in local authorities, but also on the business side of things. So, I think that, moving forward, as Nick Ramsay says, the focus is very much on employability and skills. A piece of work has gone on across Welsh Government exploring what different departments can bring to the table in terms a new and reinvigorated approach to skills and employability—so, from education to health, and obviously I have a role in that in finance.

But what we do want to see next week from the Chancellor is the UK Government's approach to skills, because, again, we want to augment what's happening. So, if the UK Government takes an approach to support skills and employability through the skills agenda, through BEIS, then we'll receive a consequential and we can do some of our own things here, but if it's the case that the UK Government decides that undertaking this work is better done through the DWP, then we won't receive a consequential. So, we're holding back on our skills and employability plan in terms of saying more about it until we know whether or not the funding will be here for us to take all of the decisions or if we need to work with what the UK Government decides to do potentially through the DWP. But I'm really hoping that the economic statement next Wednesday will provide us with that level of clarity.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch. I'm clearly going to have a lot more questions for you after next Wednesday's economic statement—that's quite clear. Minister, finally from me today, and with my other hat on as Public Accounts Committee Chair, you'd expect me to ask you about the auditor general report that grants worth £53 million to boost the rural economy were made by the Welsh Government without officials ensuring sufficient checks to ensure value for money. Now, this is obviously something that Public Accounts Committee will be looking at in its own time, but I do think the initial indications that the Welsh Government couldn't show that they'd considered whether there was a successful outcome to the spending of the £25 million of grants in particular is concerning. What confidence can the public have and how can you preliminarily reassure the public that the programmes that I've mentioned and which we've discussed today, such as the economic resilience fund, projects to get the economy back on track, will themselves involve effective evaluation and monitoring of public money, so that at the moment, when money is tight, we can see the best outcome from every Welsh pound that is spent and the taxpayer will see value for money in terms of developing that newer, greener economy, meeting those challenges ahead that are so important for moving the Welsh economy forward?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

So, we're grateful to Audit Wales for the report to which you refer, and I know that officials will be coming to the Public Accounts Committee in respect of that report and the assessment there of value for money through the RDP, and I think that's the best place to have those detailed and forensic discussions. But it is important to recognise that, as part of our ongoing review of the delivery of the RDP, officials had already identified the issues described in the Audit Wales report and had taken action to remedy them. And, as the report makes clear, the issue of value for money wasn't tested in the appraisal of those projects, so the projects concerned were reviewed to ensure that they did deliver value for money, and, where appropriate, action was taken to ensure that they did achieve value for money, including retendering some of those projects. But of course, since then, as I say, we have identified those issues; we've learned.

So, new guidance has been issued to policy makers, called 'Value for Money in Challenging Times: Key Economic Principles', and that sets out those key economic principles that, if followed, can deliver good value for money. Also, a revised finance notice, 'Making the Most of Welsh Government Funds', was also published, and that provides policy colleagues with the advice that they need to ensure that there is a much greater focus on value for money. And work is also ongoing on developing a value-for-money module into the compulsory core finance training for Welsh Government senior civil servants and, into the future, the roll-out of equivalent training for executive band staff. So, we're ensuring that value for money is well understood and well practised by the civil service.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Brexit Party spokesperson, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

Will the finance Minister make a statement on her latest assessment of the amount of tax revenue that we will lose by having a longer and stricter lockdown in Wales than the UK Government has been applying in England, and could she clarify what level of transitional protection we have over revenues to the Welsh Treasury from land transaction tax and the Welsh rates of income tax, and also advise whether there is any risk that we could be caught by the 'no detriment' rule in terms of UK revenues from income tax raised in Wales if they are significantly affected by decisions her Government are taking to maintain lockdown?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank Mark Reckless for those questions. I think it is possible to say two things. The first is that Welsh taxes will be affected by the coronavirus outbreak, but it is impossible to say at this point to what extent that will be and to what extent it will be different to that across the border in England. I think it's worth reflecting that we're not as out of step with what's happening in England as might be suggested. We are only a couple of weeks different in some respects to what's happening across the border, and already we see some areas of England going into local lockdowns. So, there'll be all kinds of different considerations that will play out in the period ahead and which will impact on taxes. But, overall, as Mark Reckless knows, we are protected from UK-wide economic shocks through the block grant adjustments, so I don't think that the impact on land transaction tax, for example, or landfill disposals tax will be of a significant order.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

We all support the furlough, job retention scheme, at least as it has operated to date. Can I ask the finance Minister to clarify the Welsh Government's position on any potential continuance? The scheme was brought in initially for a few months to ensure people didn't lose jobs, remained in contact with their employer in that contractual relationship, so that the economy could quickly restart, hopefully with a v-shaped recovery. The First Minister earlier, though, I think in the context of Airbus in Broughton—. I see that Ryanair is being told that it shouldn't be flying out of Cardiff today, although I think because it uses only Boeing aircraft, perhaps that not's an issue. But, if the air industry is going to take many years to recover and demand is going to be greatly lower not for months, but for years, is it not inevitable that output of aircraft is going to fall sharply and remain lower for a long period? And in those circumstances, do we need to be looking at another purpose for the furlough scheme, and if there is any extension, are you suggesting that that should be to keep people in most affected industries furloughed for a period of years? Or do you recognise that for people in industries unfortunately affected very badly for a long period, or for at least some of those people, it may be better to retrain and take opportunities and look to develop their careers elsewhere if the impact is going to be so severe and so long term?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think what we want to avoid is a cliff edge for people. So, you'll have seen the statement that Ken Skates has put out in terms of aviation and the aerospace industry here in Wales and how important it is, and you'll have heard what I said to Nick Ramsay in terms of how important it is that Welsh Government and the UK Government work together. So, in terms of the job retention scheme, I do think that there is a case for industries that were particularly hard hit to receive support for longer, and actually aviation was one of those sectors, which, alongside tourism, Ken Skates and I both mentioned in our letter to the Chancellor. Two things need to happen at the same time: people need to be kept with the support that they need, but also new jobs need to be created and new opportunities need to be found for people, because, even under normal circumstances, in an average week we lose 2,000 jobs here in Wales but another 2,000 are created. So, we need to ensure that that pipeline of new jobs comes into line, and I'm really aware that, particularly in Airbus, for example, the individuals there are very highly skilled, and I think that we need to ensure that the kind of employment that we're able to offer in the future continues to be in high-skilled and well-paid roles.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

3. How will the Minister ensure that the mental health implications of the COVID-19 pandemic are recognised in the Welsh Government's budget allocations? OQ55385

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Research tells us that the pandemic will affect many people's mental and emotional well-being. That's why we have announced a number of specific measures targeted at supporting mental health, including £5 million for mental health in schools and £3.5 million to enable health boards to respond to increased demand.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Minister. I welcome any funding for the mental health implications of the pandemic, but I do believe it is vital that those are additional allocations, and I was very concerned to see that £7 million had been removed from the mental health service improvement fund in the supplementary budget. Now, I'm sure all Members recognise that we have a very long way to go in Wales in delivering parity between mental and physical health. There have been two landmark reports in this Assembly: the Children, Young People and Education Committee's 'Mind over matter' report on children's mental health, and the health committee's 'Everybody's Business' report on suicide prevention. The loss of life to suicide remains a major public health emergency. What assurances can you offer, Minister, that you will continue to prioritise not just the response to the pandemic, but the very important service transformation that we want to see in adult and children's mental health in Wales? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I'm grateful to Lynne Neagle for raising this, and I completely agree with everything she said about the importance of service transformation happening as well as our initial and immediate response to the COVID-19 crisis. I just want to reassure that the £7 million that was removed from that particular line in the budget was done on the understanding that that was work that couldn't happen because of the COVID-19 crisis, or that was slowed down, and that was what was able to free up that funding in the first place. But, clearly, the provision of mental health services is going to be more important than ever given the pressures on people as a result of the crisis. So, I give you my reassurance and my word that I will continue to value mental health very highly in my discussions with colleagues.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, Mind Cymru has recently published a report into how the coronavirus pandemic has impacted our mental health, which shows that many people do not feel entitled to seek help and have difficulty accessing it when they do. Now, the report showed that one in three adults and more than one in four young people didn't access support during lockdown because they didn't think that they deserved that support.

Can you therefore tell us how much funding the Welsh Government has specifically made available during the pandemic to communicate to people across Wales about the importance of mental health, and to encourage them to seek support if they are struggling? And, what discussions have you had with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding this matter in order to make sure that people who are in need of financial support receive the support that they actually need?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think that it's really important to recognise that there will be people experiencing mental ill health as a result of the coronavirus crisis who have potentially never experienced mental ill health before and don't necessarily know the services and support that are available to them, and potentially might not feel comfortable about talking about their mental ill health in the first place. So, the work that's already been going on with a wide variety, I have to say, of organisations continues and is really important. I know that the health Minister has been keen to explore within his budget how much more he can provide in terms of support for particular schemes. But, you asked about particularly focused highlighting of what support is available and how much has been provided to that. So, an additional £50,000 was provided for the mental health of unpaid carers, as an example, and that coincided with national carers week to ensure that carers were aware of the particular support that was available to them and targeted at them.

Other investment has been around increasing mental health in-patient capacity, recognising the challenges that there are during this period, and, of course, extending the mental health support scheme for doctors, which is now extended to 60,000 healthcare workers across Wales. They will have had that promoted to them to ensure that they are aware that that service is now available to them, given the pressures that people are facing in the healthcare sector particularly.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

4. What extra allocations will be available during the current budget round to support the tracking element of the test track and protect strategy? OQ55375

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

In the first supplementary budget passed by the Senedd last week, we allocated more than an extra £400 million to the NHS, including £57 million to support the Welsh Government's test, trace and protect strategy.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much for that response. I am more concerned in terms of this question of the funding that I would like to see being allocated for local government specifically. We are very fortunate in Ynys Môn that the county was part of the early development work on the tracing system, and part of the national pilot at the end of May.

But, these are voluntary teams within the county doing the tracing work; they are staff from other departments that have been brought into the team. Clearly, that isn't sustainable; it won't be sustainable as the council seeks to return to business as usual. So, can I ask for an early statement on the funding that can be allocated clearly to local authorities, which will be additional, so that they can professionalise this and employ people specifically to do this work? Because, let's be honest, we will need these professional tracing teams in councils across Wales for many months to come.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think that one of the real strengths of our approach here in Wales has been those very locally based teams of people doing the tracing work. I can say that I've had a number of discussions with the health Minister and with officials over the last week, looking at what funding will be needed in order to increase the size of that workforce, what the core size should be, and how we can ensure that there is surge capacity for that workforce as well, and there will be additional funding as part of that. Yes, I will be happy to provide that statement as soon as the details are confirmed.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

5. Will the Minister indicate the additional funding that is expected as a result of spending by the UK Government in England in areas devolved to Wales? OQ55346

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Measures announced by the UK Government since the budget are expected to result in consequentials for Wales of around £2.3 billion, some of which are as yet indicative. Welcome though this is, it's less than we have needed to meet the immediate needs generated by the COVID crisis.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Minister for that response? Some of us are suspicious of the way that the Treasury in Westminster distributes consequential funding to Wales, and what they include has a substantial effect on the Welsh budget. Will the Minister publish the amount of money to be provided, and the Treasury's calculation that produced the total for the consequential moneys provided to Wales—what we used to know as 'show your workings'?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, I'd be very happy to. So, thus far, we've published details of the additional funding in the first supplementary budget, but we do expect the Treasury to publish its block grant transparency tables very shortly, showing the detail of allocations across all three devolved nations. I think that those transparency tables are important in understanding the workings out, as Mike Hedges says. There might be further consequentials this year, and I'm hoping for some news on that in the July economic statement next week. Then, following that, of course, we'd expect a further block grant transparency table outlining any additional allocations as a result of that.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

6. What additional allocations will be made available by the Welsh Government during the current budget round to support the social care sector? OQ55370

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Social care plays a vital role in supporting some of the most vulnerable people in Wales. This work is more important than ever. We have allocated £40 million to support the extra costs of adult social care services and are providing payments of £500 to front-line Welsh social care staff.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. I don't think it's wise to keep mentioning the £500, because that's actually scandalous—how that figure has actually materialised.

Now, the Welsh Government has confirmed extension of the adult social care element of the local authority hardship fund to cover the whole of June. Will you provide an extension for July and August to give certainty to our local authorities? Longer term assurances are needed also. An elderly mentally infirm home in Powys receives a weekly fee of £559, whereas, in Cardiff, the figure is £793.48. That's £12,192.96 more for every resident than in Powys over the course of the year. This variation across Wales is disgraceful. So, will you consider supporting an inquiry into this fee variation, and will you work with colleagues to see fairness in funding for homes across Wales? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for raising that. You'll be aware that there has been an inter-ministerial group on paying for social care that has been meeting over the past number of years now to consider the ways forward. We're very aware of those differentials in the payment that is received in different areas. Some of it is very difficult, I think, to explain. That work is still ongoing despite the crisis, because we recognise how important it is that we gather all of the evidence that's needed so that decisions can be made about the appropriate way to pay for care in future.

But, in terms of the response to the immediate crisis, again, I have earmarked additional funding for social care in respect of the additional pressures that local authorities are facing, and we're starting to get those figures in for the claims thus far. So, I'll be able to understand what the pressure might be over this month and the next months to get a better idea of what's required.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

7. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of Covid-19 on future Welsh budgets? OQ55355

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The pandemic is putting great pressure on our resources this year, and there are huge uncertainties about funding in future years. That's why, at last week's finance Ministers' quadrilateral, I pressed the Chief Secretary to announce how and when he will set spending plans for next year and beyond.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Minister. As you know, eye-watering sums of money have come from the UK Government to help the Welsh economy during lockdown, as well as your own Government's repurposing and reimagining of existing budgets and funds. Anyone who manages a household budget can see that there will be a knock-on effect for future Welsh budgets and the services that they support. How deep will hard-working members of the Welsh public need to dig in terms of increased income tax in the next Senedd term? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, we've been very clear that we wouldn't increase Welsh rates of income tax over this entire Assembly term, and we stuck to that. But I do think it's a case for all parties, really, to set out what their intentions would be for Welsh rates of income tax ahead of the next Senedd elections so that members of the public can decide what they feel is right for them.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of business rates relief grants for the not-for-profit sector during the Covid-19 pandemic? OQ55353

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes. The Welsh Government is providing £1.7 billion to help businesses and not‑for‑profit organisations in Wales during the coronavirus outbreak. This includes over £875 million for grants related to non-domestic rates. All not-for-profit organisations that meet the eligibility criteria will receive a grant of either £10,000 or £25,000.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Minister. If I can put, perhaps, an example to you of a not-for-profit childcare provider in Machynlleth in my constituency, with a rateable value of £12,000. They've contacted me to say that the vast majority of their income comes from charging fees for looked-after children as opposed to donations. They say that they are not eligible for the business rates relief grant—either the £10,000 or £25,000 rate—because they have received 100 per cent rate relief as a charity.

Business Wales seems to suggest that not-for-profit organisations and childcare providers that qualify for the 100 per cent small business rate relief should receive the £10,000 grant. So, there is some, I think, confusion as to why this particular business is excluded. Are you able to provide any clarification today on how the business rate relief grant scheme should work for the charitable and not-for-profit sector?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

As I say, they have been included in our non-domestic rates related grant scheme. So, perhaps if you write to me with that specific case, I can look into it to make sure that we provide the correct advice.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That brings our morning's session to a close. We will reconvene at 14:15, and just to remind Members that they need to be present in the session for me to be able to call them for questions. So, make sure that you keep your cameras on if you are in the session, otherwise I can't see you to know that you are there to be called.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, I will see you all at a quarter past two.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

See you at 14:15.

5. Questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome back after our break, and we return to our agenda with item 5, which is questions to the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language. Question 1 this afternoon is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism. Question 1—Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

1. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government support for local Welsh-medium publications during the Covid-19 pandemic? OQ55349

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Minister, you need to unmute your phone. I can't hear you. Sorry, you need to put your mic on. No, try again. No, sorry, we're not hearing the Minister.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Is that all right now?

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

That's fine. Thank you, Minister. Sorry about that.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Sorry, it was the extension lead that got me into trouble.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Oh, right. There we go.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much, Mike, for that question and for asking it in Welsh, and I will answer in Welsh too. The Welsh Government recognises the importance of local Welsh-medium publications in ensuring that people in all parts of Wales have access to vital local news and information during this current public health crisis. We are working closely with the Books Council of Wales and other stakeholders to support publications during this period.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you, Minister. The importance of local Welsh-medium publications—Julie James, Rebecca Evans and myself do advertise on a monthly basis in our monthly Welsh-language publication, Wilia. So, what's the Minister doing in order to ensure the continuation of such publications?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, Wilia is one of a network of 52 papurau bro, if memory serves me correctly, and they're available throughout Wales, and they play a crucial role in linking and connecting communities, particularly in situations such as this public health crisis. We have supported them through the mentrau iaith, and as I said at the outset, there are 52 papurau bro, and there is a grant of £97,000 that has been budgeted in order to target assistance for papurau bro during the 2020-1 financial year.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Deputy Minister, Hwb has been a fundamental part of home schooling over the past three months, but I still receive correspondence from non-Welsh-speaking parents who don't feel that they have been in a position to assist their children who attend Welsh-medium schools. So, would it be possible for you to speak to the education Minister as to how copies of papurau bro can be uploaded, perhaps, as educational resources for parents and their children? There are examples of how written and spoken words are used in particular areas and they will be very useful resources for every school, looking at the new local curriculum in particular.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, the papurau bro—at least half of them now, I believe—are published digitally, and therefore they are available online online as a medium that people can turn to. I would encourage the papurau bro to take advantage of the support of the Welsh Books Council, and through the books council the Welsh Government, in order to enable more people to take advantage of digital material through the medium of Welsh at a local level. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Question 2 is again to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism. Question 2—Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the promotion of mid Wales as a tourist destination? OQ55352

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I'm very pleased to make a statement about mid Wales because, as no doubt you know, Russell, I used to live there for 20 years, and in those days, of course, there was a lot of interest in promoting the identity of mid Wales. When it came to my role in tourism, I was very keen that we maintained mid Wales as a region.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Minister. I very much welcome that answer. Tourism businesses, I think, are looking to the Welsh Government for some kind of aspirational timetable on when they can reopen their doors again—operating, of course, under social distancing guidance. In order to avoid irreversible damage to the mid-Wales economy—and I know you care about the mid-Wales economy as I do—what do you and the Welsh Government plan to do to promote mid Wales as a post-COVID tourist destination? Can you commit to putting a long-term package of financial support in place for the sector, which of course is continuing to be adversely affected and is likely to be for some time to come?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, I'm pleased to say I look forward to discussing this with Steve Hewson, who represents mid Wales on our tourism conference, which is a regular fortnightly, and sometimes weekly, event that we hold. In the discussions that I've had with him, the whole question of mid Wales as a major centre for national events—and obviously Steve himself is a chief executive of the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society—that centre, although obviously not going to hold an event this year, remains a key focus for tourism. We must remember that so much of tourism is in fact not just leisure tourism—it's business tourism, it's people visiting other regions in order to share experiences. I'm certain that in this case mid Wales is in a very strong position because of the distinctive centres of events that we have there.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. We now turn to party spokespeople to question the Minister. The first this afternoon is Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. If you'll just give me a second—thank you.

Good afternoon, Minister. We'll be discussing more contentious aspects of the Welsh language in the debate on the new curriculum later this afternoon, so I'll leave that issue for the time being. But I do want to ask you about your vision for reaching the 2050 target, and the impact of the pandemic on learners of Welsh. The current pandemic has shifted people's focus from other priorities. However, the supplementary budget hasn't hit your department too hard, possibly because the Welsh language budget isn't particularly large in the first instance, to be fair. So, what have you had to cut, and does it have most impact on developing new use of the Welsh language in education, business or community settings? Specifically with more families having to oversee home learning, how are cuts in your budget impacting on the National Centre for Learning Welsh, Mudiad Meithrin, the language immersion centres in Gwynedd, where cuts of £100,000 per annum have already been in place, and specific support for families who don't speak Welsh but have children in Welsh-medium education?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Suzy. This is something that we are highly aware of—that there are risks that people won't have the opportunity to practise their Welsh language skills, particularly if they have children in Welsh-medium education, and they will now have had three months without that opportunity to practise their Welsh. It's good to see that children have returned this week, and we have been clear that there are numerous resources available through Hwb in order to enable parents to help their children. In addition to that, we have ensured that there is software available, free of charge, which assists people to spell correctly, it assists with grammar and so on and so forth. So, we also hope that that will assist people.

In terms of funding, like every other department, we have had to make cuts in our budgets. One of the areas where we had to make those cuts was in the National Centre for Learning Welsh. Of course, it wasn't possible for the centre to provide lessons in the way that it usually would. It was impossible for people to attend classes, for example. But what we have seen is that people are undertaking those lessons online. And, to tell the truth, more people are likely to turn up to their classes online than they were to turn up to the physical classes. So, it is interesting to see whether change is afoot. And, of course, as you develop resources for working online, there is also an opportunity for us to rethink the way in which we provide those resources.

You asked about Mudiad Meithrin, well, we are keeping a very close eye on what is happening there, and that is an issue, of course, for the education Minister. And the immersion centres—it is a shame that they have been in a position where that immersion couldn't happen. But, of course, we hope now that, as we move forward to September, we will be able to reconsider that and put measures in place to ensure that there are opportunities to recommence these activities, particularly for those people who are eager to have Welsh-medium education but need that additional support.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, thank you for that response. Yes, I was also pleased to hear that many people were using lockdown in terms of turning an ambiguous aspiration into reality, but it's easier to fall out of habits than it is to establish new ones. So, what opportunities will be available for learners to use their new skills in a meaningful way? Standards do some of that work for you, I know that, but will your current budget and your longer term budgets allow you to prioritise those people who could start to use their new skills in the workplace?

As this is a cross-governmental responsibility, what have you been telling your colleagues in the economy and education departments on three specific things: first, new support—can you offer childcare placements that offer bilingual opportunities or Welsh language opportunities to support staff who have been learning Welsh, whilst accepting the need to provide high-quality services for children; support for a further education and apprenticeship action plan through the medium of Welsh, through the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol; and how can you ensure that initial teacher training courses do develop Welsh language skills for all prospective teachers, because this is a serious challenge, particularly—