Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 7 October 2020

285 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welcome to this Plenary meeting. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitute Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on your agenda. I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting and apply equally to Members in the Chamber as to those joining virtually.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Before we begin today's proceedings, I wish to reflect on events that took place during yesterday's debate on the elimination of racial discrimination. Many of you have expressed to me your frustration and disappointment at the manner in which one Member's conduct disrupted proceedings and brought our Senedd into disrepute. Conduct of this nature by any Member is entirely unacceptable. I have written to the Member requesting that he withdraws his defamatory remarks and apologises to me personally for his actions. In the meantime, the Member will not be called to speak.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy and Transport and North Wales

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item is questions to the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales, and the first question is from Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. And I think you have the support of Members across the whole Chamber in what you've just said.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve rail links to Blaenau Gwent? OQ55641

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We continue to work with Transport for Wales and with Network Rail on the Ebbw Vale line frequency enhancement scheme, which would enable four trains per hour to be operated, and we're also working with Blaenau Gwent on plans to reopen the line to Abertillery.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Minister, I'm almost speechless. I'm delighted that you referenced both the station in Abertillery and also four trains an hour. Those are exactly the objectives that we all want to see. You will know, perhaps better than I, how we've all been let down by the Westminster Government—successive UK Governments have refused to invest in the rail infrastructure in Wales. And I think we're all grateful that the Welsh Government has taken the view that the rail infrastructure's too important to be left to wither on Westminster's vine. Therefore, will you commit to continuing to invest in the infrastructure serving Blaenau Gwent, but also that the metro will continue to be a priority for a Welsh Government, and that the Welsh Government will continue to ensure that we have the public transport links that really mean that connectivity for stations serving Blaenau Gwent is something that we can look forward to seeing developed and continued investment in it into the future?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his supplementary question? He regularly makes a very powerful case for the devolution of responsibility for rail infrastructure and, with it, fair funding. And I've recently outlined how we found, through a conservative estimate, that, over the course of 28 years, from 2001 to 2029, spend on Welsh-related rail infrastructure is £2.4 billion below what it should have been—£2.4 billion. So, as part of the UK Government's desire to level up the UK, let's see them level up rail investment. I can guarantee to the Member that we will go on investing in those areas that we are responsible for, and we will also look to accelerate schemes where the UK Government needs to come to the table with cash. The metro is a major priority for this Government. And in spite of reduced passenger numbers during the course of this pandemic, we remain as committed as ever to promoting public transport and investing in infrastructure and services the length and breadth of Wales, and including in my friend and colleague's constituency.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Can you outline, Minister, the implications of Network Rail's decarbonisation strategy, which sets out how the rail industry aims to become net zero in terms of carbon emissions by 2050 on this rail service?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I should point out the fact that Network Rail is accountable to the UK Government; it is a UK Government body. But, for our part, when we secured the contract for the Wales and borders franchise, when we outlined our aspirations for the metro, we also detailed how we intend to deliver a raft of services across the metro area that would be zero carbon. Their power would come from forms of renewable energy. That's something that we're very proud of, as we seek to meet the targets for decarbonisation, and public transport in Wales is contributing to that effort.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Minister, the reason given by rail operators for the lack of a train link from the Ebbw Vale line into Newport has been that train capacity was fully taken up by the service into Cardiff. Minister, given the fact that the use of public transport has fallen dramatically since the onset of the COVID pandemic, has any thought been given to open trial train journeys into Newport, in preparation for a full service? Notwithstanding that there are delays in the procurement of rolling stock, which we acknowledge are outside the hands of the Welsh Government, surely there is now sufficient spare capacity to make these trials possible.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, unfortunately, service numbers are actually at a maximum. It's service capacity, the number of seats, or seat capacity, that is currently much reduced and, therefore, there is not the space available on those lines in order to trial as the Member suggests. But, I can assure the Member, again, the Welsh Government is doing all it can to deliver against the ambition of four trains per hour across not just the established metro area, but the wider area. But, in order to deliver that, as I keep saying, we need UK Government investment, and the UK Government can deliver that investment. We've seen, many times, mentions of the UK internal market Bill and how the UK Government would wish to spend money in Wales, but they wish to spend money in areas where they're not responsible. We want to see them spend far more money in Wales, and they can begin by spending on rail infrastructure.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on inward investment in the North Wales region over this Senedd term? OQ55649

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

As the Member is aware, north Wales has a huge range of strengths that have proven to be attractive to overseas investors over this Senedd term, and we'll continue to use both economic and international levers to ensure those strengths are recognised globally.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Minister. I follow the fortunes of the UK manufacturing industry, and there are some fabulous announcements coming out about new factories and technological advancements. In recent months, I've only seen one announcement relating to north Wales, about the excellent Wrexham-based Village Bakery. What is your department doing to ensure Wales, and especially north Wales, gets its share of that inward investment spoil?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, the Member will also be aware of the astonishing work that's been taking place at the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre Cymru, which we opened just last autumn. That centre was designed to deliver opportunities for businesses to collaborate. It was designed to capture the 'wing of tomorrow' for Airbus, it was designed to capture more research and innovation funding from the UK Government, but, during the course of the pandemic, it's also stepped up to the national effort, producing invaluable equipment for the national health service.

Right across north Wales, we've seen investment levels at a very, very high rate in terms of foreign direct investment. We've seen around about a quarter of the recent inward investment projects secured in north Wales. In 2019-20, there were 15 investments from overseas, creating 348 jobs. I do apologise if the Member has missed any press releases regarding those 15 significant investments, but I can assure the Member that we are doing all we can to land as many opportunities for the region as possible. And that's shown by the employment figures. We have a higher rate of employment in north Wales than we have across Wales on average. And, right now, unemployment across Wales stands at 3.1 per cent, compared to 4.1 per cent across the UK. And that demonstrates the value of devolution and, in particular, the enormous efforts that the Welsh Government have displayed during the course of the pandemic, with the Wales-only economic resilience fund securing more than 100,000 jobs.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I would like to raise my concerns about inward investment in Conwy during this enforced economic lockdown by your Government. You must be aware that these actions are having a devastating impact on my constituents and businesses in Aberconwy: the tourism sector has only had two months to trade to see them through the winter; the queen of Welsh resorts now described as a ghost town; hoteliers and the retail sector bewildered and angry at the threat to their livelihoods by your Welsh Government. Now, no-one is denying that public safety is paramount, but your actions should be considered proportionate and fair. There is an overwhelming opinion, now—. In fact, it's over 1,000 on Facebook—they want to even start a campaign group about your actions. Now, you're bringing the tourism and retail sector to its knees. Yesterday, the First Minister had the audacity to suggest that we, as elected politicians, raising these valid concerns on behalf of our businesses, were suggesting residents should break the rules. I'm sure you would agree with me that was preposterous and it was grossly offensive.

Now, the local lockdown business fund—. A week tomorrow it is since this lockdown was announced—people sent home from hotels, bookings cancelled. The lockdown fund, when I've looked into it, is pennies compared to what's needed to see these people not lose their livelihoods. So, what assurances can you provide this Senedd, today, Minister, with, that you will put in place a fair and proportionate response in terms of funding these hard-pressed businesses so that we do actually have them able to open again next spring? But also—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, you'll need to bring your questions to a close now.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Will you be pressing the Minister for Health and Social Services and, indeed, the First Minister to look at the figures again and bring this lockdown to an end ASAP? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, first, a number of points in observation on what Janet Finch-Saunders has just said in the Senedd Chamber: we're putting lives first, we are prioritising human life and we make no apologies for that; the First Minister was right in what he said yesterday; and, thirdly, the incident management team that met last week, to decide on restrictions in north Wales were unanimous. This was a decision not taken—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Allow the Minister to respond, please. If you carry on, and we'll have some—. No point of order. Allow the Minister to respond. Carry on, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Diolch, Llywydd. I was just saying about the IMT that met last week: a range of stakeholders—local authority leaders, the police, health chiefs—all in agreement that action had to be taken. The reason being that the later you act, the longer restrictions are often in place. Just look at what's happening in Paris right now, just look at what's happening elsewhere, when you fail to intervene early, and look at what's happening in many parts of Wales where we did take action early—the figures are dropping.

Now, I have another number of points I'd just briefly like to make. The Member says that the local lockdown fund amounts to pennies. Well, maybe she could explain what she thinks about the English support, because that is far less generous than what we are offering in Wales. In England, you will only be able to get support if you close your business down; that's not the case in Wales. I'd also invite the Member to look at how many businesses in her own constituency have benefited from the most comprehensive and generous package of support anywhere in the United Kingdom. If we just take Conwy, as a county area, we know that a total of 461 microbusinesses and small and medium-sized enterprises secured funding through the economic resilience fund. That wouldn't have been available to those 461 businesses if they'd been established in England. And, in addition, 83 start-up grants were awarded for start-ups in Conwy. Again, funding that wouldn't have been available to them if they were in England. And, thirdly, in Aberconwy, in the Member's own constituency, the Development Bank of Wales's COVID-19 loans scheme has provided more than £3 million to 68 businesses. Again, support that wouldn't have been available if they had been in England.

We are doing all we can—far more than the UK Government is doing exclusively in England—to provide those bridges for businesses and working people to get through to the point where we have a vaccine or where we adequately suppress the virus numbers.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Minister, you'll be well aware that the workforce in Alyn and Deeside is the most highly skilled in the United Kingdom. I've worked alongside them as an engineer and I've seen this first hand. Those making investment decisions should be aware of this fact too, and we should be shouting from the rooftops. So, I was very pleased to hear you earlier mention the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre Cymru. Minister, can you provide an update on the important projects such as the logistics hub at Tata Steel in Shotton and also the Northern Gateway?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Jack Sargeant and say that his question is actually very timely, because I've just come out of a virtual meeting with the local area board, who oversee the AMRC and economic development opportunities across Deeside industrial park and the enterprise zone? I was pleased to receive a comprehensive briefing from Bill Duckworth, the excellent site manager at Tata in Shotton, and also from Andy Silcox, who brilliantly runs the AMRC at Broughton. And I learned today that there is not only potential for Tata Shotton to host a Heathrow logistics hub, but also a logistics hub for floating offshore wind industries and possibly for off-site modular housing—incredibly exciting programmes.

Also, we know that the Northern Gateway is one of the most attractive development sites in north Wales at the moment. I'm optimistic about being able to say something positive in the near future concerning job creation, and what we're doing there complements what we're investing in across north Wales. And I recently announced—Members will be aware—the establishment of a development company for Trawsfynydd to look at all opportunities for that part of north Wales as well.

We are investing across the region, creating jobs in record numbers, and we have a pandemic to overcome, but we are confident that, by working as a partner to local authorities, we have the strongest team in north Wales to overcome this challenge.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, do businesses that have received funding from the Welsh Government during the pandemic need to become unionised?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I'm sorry, Llywydd, I can't hear—I can't hear Russell George.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Okay. The question will be repeated. I'm not sure what the problem was there. Repeat the question.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can I just check, Llywydd—can I be heard now?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. That's perfect.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Llywydd. My question was, Minister: do businesses that have received funding from the Welsh Government during the pandemic need to become unionised?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

No.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Well, I'm very pleased with that answer, Minister—that businesses don't need to be unionised in order to receive Welsh Government support. I raise the question because of a recent letter that had been sent to businesses in receipt of funding from the economic resilience fund. Now, as I read this letter myself, there does seem to be an element of strong-arming businesses into becoming unionised.

Now, there's clearly frustration from businesses—. As it happens, Minister, I understand the requirement from Government to attach requirements for fair working for employees in connection with receiving Government funding, but the fact is that there are thousands of businesses up and down Wales that have employees who do not see the benefits of being a member of a union, and the businesses they work for work with the fair and correct working that we would all expect. I wonder if you would reflect on that feedback that's been received as a result of that letter going out.

I turn to another question, Minister: during the new restrictions that have come into force in north Wales, there is clearly a concern for businesses in that area, which fear that local lockdowns will lead to job losses in the tourism and hospitality sector in particular. Now, I welcome the additional funding that you announced last week to support the tourism and hospitality sector, but it is concerning that only half of the economic resilience fund from the last phase had actually been distributed. How are you going to ensure, Minister, that the money is distributed more quickly in the future to ensure that businesses that are, sadly, on the brink of collapse are protected as quickly as possible?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his questions? First of all, on the point regarding the letter that we sent out, I make no apology whatsoever for my commitment to working with employers and trade unions to change people's working lives for the better. Nobody is trying to coerce any individual or any business, but we are promoting a 'something for something' relationship between the public and people and businesses who receive taxpayers' money in the form of grants or loans that are favourable. And it's about making sure that we move to a point where we collaborate more, we don't just co-exist as Government and businesses, where we work together on employment opportunities. And I really must say that the role of the unions in promoting better health—and particularly better mental health—in the workplace is vitally important. We know just how much of an impact poor mental health—poor health in general, poor well-being—has on productivity rates. Trade unions help businesses overcome those problems, and I just look to Airbus as a perfect example of how, when you have strong union partnership with management, you can achieve great things. For decades, they have had there strong union partnership between management and the unions, primarily Unite, and, as a consequence of that, they have fought as one for new projects—new wings, new research and innovation, more investment centrally from Toulouse. So, I'd encourage the Member to move on from a 1980s, jaundiced view of trade unions and recognise that social partnership has enormous value in the twenty-first century.

Now, in terms of tourism and hospitality businesses, what would be cataclysmic for tourism and hospitality is failure to get coronavirus under control. And that's why we have taken action early to bring down those numbers swifter, so that the restrictions, hopefully, can be eased or removed quicker. And in terms of getting business support out of the drawer fast, I think our local authorities did a remarkable job in administering the grants for tens of thousands of businesses across Wales, putting many councils across the border, actually, to shame in terms of the speed in which they were able to administer them.

And I must remind Members again that what we are offering through the economic resilience fund is the most generous and comprehensive package of support anywhere in the United Kingdom—so far, it's secured more than 100,000 jobs; it has helped more than 13,000 businesses—which, if they were based in England, they would not have benefited from.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Minister, I agree with the many benefits that you point out that being member of a union can achieve, but the fact is that employers and employees can also work together without being members of a union, which is the point I was making and which was the concern that was being pointed out by those that were frustrated by the letter.

Finally, Minister, looking ahead at your long-term ambition to see around 30 per cent of Welsh workers working from home following the COVID-19 pandemic, you say that this has the potential to drive regeneration and economic activity in communities. However, whilst homeworking may be suitable for some, others see the benefits of real-life interaction, which can stimulate ideas, creativity and business productivity.

The figure of 30 per cent does seem to be arbitrary, so it would be helpful if you could explain how you arrived at that figure. But I wonder also what assessment you've made in regard to how this figure will affect town-centre planning, the growth deals that are dependent and have planned for office space, and also public transport planning and the raft of other planning-related areas as well that will be affected by this figure that you've presented, Minister. But to understand the logic behind 30 per cent would be welcome.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his questions, and say that I do appreciate his more reasonable sentiment today regarding the letter to employers than his colleague expressed in the press release last week, which I'm afraid was just pure scaremongering?

In terms of remote working and homeworking—or, as I like to call it, multi-place working—we came to that target on the basis of the proportion of people who have been homeworking and remote working during the course of the pandemic and then made a reasonable assessment of what could continue into the medium and longer term.

The Member rightly raises the question of growth and city deals. All of the existing deals have to be COVID-proof, and regional partners have done a very good job in carrying out immediate assessments of various programmes and projects that are contained within their deals. But I have to say that the aim of increasing the proportion of people who work remotely or from home is to ensure that we get a better work-life balance, to ensure that wellness and well-being at work is improved, to ensure that we inject more vibrancy into town centres with remote-working hubs, and as the Member said—rightly—to drive innovation through co-locating public services with private sector services as well. I'm incredibly excited about the prospects for remote-working hubs in many towns that have felt left behind in recent decades. Near me, in Wrexham, we have the town-centre enterprise hub, which has been hugely valuable in promoting and supporting business start-ups and bringing—mainly young—people together who have innovative ideas, huge creativity, and work with one another. They get their ideas from one another. They promote their own businesses, but, crucially, they also support one another's.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru Spokesperson, Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. I know that the Minister agrees with me that the steel industry is absolutely vital to the future of Welsh industry, and I'm sure that he would also agree with me that, in terms of decarbonising the industry—. Sorry, is the Minister having trouble hearing me?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I missed the first part of Helen Mary Jones's question.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Okay, can we—?

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Shall I start again?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can we repeat the question fully?

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Of course. I know, Minister, that you'll agree with me how important the steel industry is to not only Wales's current economic activity, but to our future. And I'm sure that you would also agree with me that, in order to decarbonise our use of steel in Wales and in the UK, we should be decarbonising our own production, rather than allowing our production to disappear and then purchasing steel from other countries where they may not be setting the same decarbonisation targets as we are. Now, obviously, that long-term future is dependent on the immediate survival of the industry, and I wonder if you can tell us today, Minister, what recent discussions you have had both with Tata and with the UK Government about the current position of the steel industry in Wales and its immediate future.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her question? It gives me an opportunity to promote the consultation that's taking place at the moment concerning the Welsh Government's new manufacturing plan. I encourage all Members to contribute to that consultation, because it covers all important sectors within the Welsh manufacturing base, including, obviously, steel. And we are determined to support the sector to become sustainable. But the main role—as the Member has alluded to, the main role in supporting the future of the sector is actually the UK Government's. And the industrial energy transformation fund could prove to be of huge value, but we've been clear in stating that, as a very minimum, we would expect a Barnett equivalent to be drawn down by Welsh businesses from the industrial energy transformation fund. We've said that, actually, we believe that a significant proportion of that fund should come to Welsh businesses, given how we are dependent on many businesses that are intensive in terms of their energy use.

Now, we have very regular discussions both with UK Government and with Tata, and, in fact, I have weekly calls with UK Government Ministers within the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. My understanding is that those commercially confidential discussions are still proceeding between Tata and UK Government, and we've impressed upon UK Government a need to make sure that there is sector-specific support relating to the pandemic for important manufacturing subsectors, such as steel, automotive and aerospace.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm very grateful to the Minister for his answer, and I'm sure that we all, across the Chamber, will be glad to hear that those discussions and negotiations are ongoing. We had a representative of UK Steel, the umbrella body, before our committee today, and he acknowledged the point that the Minister makes—that there will need to be UK-wide intervention, and that intervention is beyond the capacity of the Welsh Government. But he did say that there was one very important thing that he felt that the Welsh Government could do, and that was to use procurement to ensure that when Welsh Government is spending our money—Welsh public money—on things like the house building programme, on infrastructure developments, that there are clear targets for the percentage of Welsh steel that is used in those developments. I appreciate there may be issues about those being binding at this stage, but you could set those targets and you could ensure that the performance of companies against those targets was published. It was certainly our witness's view that that would make a big difference. He also suggested that this would be an opportunity for the Welsh Government to set a good example to the UK Government that the UK Government could then consider following.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for that important point about the role of Welsh Government in supporting steel businesses in Wales through the procurement process? As we seek to build back better, we intend to do so using Welsh steel, and we will look for every opportunity to do so. The Member is aware that the Welsh Government was the first Government to sign up to the steel charter, and that demonstrates our determination to use procurement as a lever to support the Welsh steel industry. And I'd like to put on record, Llywydd, my gratitude to UK Steel for the advice that they have given to my officials as well. They're an excellent umbrella organisation, serving Welsh steel businesses extraordinarily well.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that, Minister. I'd like, in my third question, to take you to a very different industry, and that is the hair and beauty industry. We, again, had representatives of that industry before us—before the committee—today, and they were emphasising the importance of those businesses as destinations on the high street. You know, you can't get your hair cut remotely; you might be able to buy your books remotely, but you can't get your hair cut remotely. She expressed a concern that she wasn't always convinced that the importance of the industry was understood properly by Welsh Government. She pointed out, of course, the importance of the industry in providing opportunities for women, and for women who work part time.

She also pointed out some potential anomalies in the safety regulations. She told us, for example, that whereas a barber, mostly male, is allowed to shave a male customer, a beautician, mostly female, is not allowed to give a facial to a female customer. She was suggesting to us that, for the viability of the industry going forward, she'd like some of those anomalies in the regulations looked at again. I'd like to invite the Minister today to commit to look at those anomalies and also to send a clear message of his own understanding of the importance of this industry, which also, of course, has an impact on the well-being of customers.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her third question and say that when I announced the third phase of the economic resilience fund, the first inquiry I got was from somebody who owns and operates a hair and beauty salon, asking whether the lockdown fund would be applicable to them? It will be. Where the business development grants would be available to them, they will be, provided, of course, they employ people and they meet the criteria. The lockdown fund will be administered by local authorities. Of course, I'm in no doubt that in those areas where there are restrictions, where customer footfall has fallen significantly and where turnover has dropped below 40 per cent, a very significant number of businesses in the hair and beauty sector will benefit.

I can assure the Member I will look into those anomalies that she's outlined. In any way that I can, I will help that important sector, because, as the Member says, it contributes towards social justice, employing a high proportion of women. Therefore, we have to ensure that we support the survival of those businesses as much as we can, because experts predict that it will be women; young people; people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities; disabled people and people with low levels of skills who will be most adversely affected if we do not intervene with strength. And we intend to intervene with enormous strength.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Brexit Party spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. Given that part of the strategy to reinvigorate the Welsh economy post COVID-19 is the expansion of the engineering sector in Wales, would the Minister outline where this expansion is most likely to occur? By that, I mean the companies and projects the Minister sees as being the new or existing anchor points for this expansion.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I'd like to thank the Member for his question and, again, stress the importance of our recently published manufacturing plan; that covers those areas of growth in engineering that the Member has asked about. He has until the middle of the month to make his views known on the manufacturing plan, but there are opportunities for growth, of that there is no doubt.

Today, I've learnt about huge opportunities associated with jobs in the floating offshore wind industry, which could be of major benefit to many parts of Wales; opportunities concerning logistics hubs and offsite manufacturing; and also opportunities in terms of advanced electronics. The Welsh Government is taking forward—. As an example of how we are backing these opportunities up with action, we are taking forward plans for an advanced technology research centre, which will focus on advanced electronics and provide many opportunities for engineers and businesses within the advanced electronics field.

I am confident that as a result of the Welsh Government's focus on the manufacturing sector—our dedication to manufacturing in Wales and to engineering in Wales—that we can emerge from coronavirus in a position of strength. But, it's also vital that we work as a partner to the UK Government in refreshing the UK industrial strategy, and that we draw down a greater share of UK Research and Innovation funding. It is a tragic fact that too much of that funding—four times as much, per head of population in Wales—goes to the south-east of England. There is a golden triangle that, for years and years, has taken the lion's share of research and innovation funding. And, as part of the UK Government's aspirations to build back better, to level up, research and development and innovation spend is a crucially important factor.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Thank you very much, Minister, for that answer. Minister, we have heard much talk with regard to the centre of engineering excellence proposed for the Heads of the Valleys area, particularly around Ebbw Vale and other parts of Blaenau Gwent. Could the Minister give us an update on the projects envisaged for the region, in particular the possibility of TVR relocating to Ebbw Vale, which would of course be a catalyst for other automotive production companies?

And turning, Minister, to something I broached in a debate a little while ago, when I mentioned that there was a great opportunity with the closure of the RAF St Athan apprenticeship facility to set up a Wales university of modern technology under the umbrella of Cardiff University. Though of course not yet finalised, the prospect of Britishvolt locating to St Athan is something I believe everyone in this Chamber would welcome. Surely, Minister, setting up such a training facility in close proximity would greatly assist the company in recruiting the skilled personnel it will undoubtedly demand. It may also provide a catalyst for other companies in this sector to locate to St Athan, especially given its proximity to Cardiff Airport. Can I call upon the Minister to give the creation of such a facility serious consideration?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, not just myself but also my colleagues, primarily Kirsty Williams, the education Minister, would I'm sure take a very keen interest in the proposal. We will look at it very carefully, and I can assure the Member that I'm in regular calls with TVR and with Britishvolt. These are significant opportunities for the Welsh economy, and in particular TVR offers an enormous opportunity for the Heads of the Valleys as well, not just in terms of job creation but in terms of kudos that the brand could bring to the area.

I should put on record today my thanks to the National Digital Exploitation Centre, which has proven to be incredibly valuable during the course of the pandemic, offering free support from the Ebbw Vale site, and I can assure the Member today that we are fully committed to delivering on the Tech Valleys initiative.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 3 next, Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I hope the Minister isn't getting fed up with me by now.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

3. What discussions has the Minister had regarding additional support for businesses in areas of new COVID-19 restrictions, such as Llanelli? OQ55636

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question and say that the third phase of the economic resilience fund contains £60 million to support businesses in areas that are subject to local restrictions? We'll continue to press the UK Government to take bolder steps in assuring our economic recovery and supporting future prosperity for businesses and people across the UK, including in Wales.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer. I'm sure he understands that in many communities across Wales, and Llanelli is one of them, many businesses, especially smaller businesses, have already suffered pretty seriously through the COVID crisis, particularly in fields like hospitality. They're working on very small margins. They won't have resources to enable them to invest in recovery.

In terms of that emergency support for those businesses affected by local restrictions, can he tell us what sort of levels of harm the business needs to be able to demonstrate it's suffered in order to be able to get the support, and can he tell us a bit more about how that support will be accessed? I'm sure that he will understand that, while larger companies may have specialist staff who can reach out to Business Wales and fill in the appropriate forms, some of the smaller local businesses will find that all a bit daunting, and I wonder if there is a role in terms of this emergency support for local government to play.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Helen Mary Jones is absolutely right: there is a key role for local authorities to play. I spoke with the spokesperson for WLGA yesterday concerning economic development and discussions have proceeded very well at an official level as well, because local government will be crucial in administering the local lockdown funds to businesses.

I can assure the Member today that, unlike in England, a business does not have to close down to get that emergency support. The criterion is relatively simple: a business must be able to demonstrate that it's seen a reduction in turnover of at least 40 per cent compared to the period prior to which restrictions were introduced. I'm confident that this support will offer businesses those bridges through restriction periods.

Each of the payments will be made on the basis of three-week waves of restrictions—three weeks being the period at which we would hope to see numbers reduce sufficiently for restrictions to be eased. We've modelled against what is possible this autumn and winter, and we are confident that we'll be able to offer two waves of support to businesses across Wales where there are restrictions.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Minister, thank you for the answer to Helen Mary Jones, because there are many businesses in the Afan valley that have been depending upon the visitor trade for mountain biking and the excellent trails up there. Therefore, that answer will help them very much because they'll see their numbers decrease, because they are a business from outside of the county borough, not necessarily from within, because we know you can travel up there quite easily.

But another sector that's been affected is the taxi drivers across Wales, in these local restrictions. They had difficulty in lockdown, but we're now facing more challenges as local restrictions are coming into place, because there are fewer people coming into the town and they're not able, necessarily, to transport people beyond the county boroughs. Are you looking at the taxi organisations? Because buses have been helped, trains have been helped, but taxi drivers are yet to be helped in this area and they are struggling now to find out their long-term viabilities.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I can assure the Member that, if they're able to meet the criteria of the business development grants or the local lockdown grants, they will be able to secure the funding. But it's also worth highlighting the fact that the UK Government has an important role to play in this area, because it's the UK Government that is responsible for the self-employment income support scheme. And the Member will be aware that an extension has been announced by the Chancellor and two further grants will be made available. That is something that we very much welcome, because the self-employment support scheme has been vitally important for many, many individuals in Wales.

The first grants will be calculated at 20 per cent of three months' trading profits, up to a minimum of £1,875, and I'd encourage anybody who may be eligible for that particular fund to apply as soon as they possibly can because, unfortunately, it is still the case that many self-employed people in Wales are either unaware that they're able to apply for support or have failed to do so to date.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on the visitor economy in north Wales? OQ55647

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Absolutely. The visitor economy is hugely important to the Welsh economy, particularly in north Wales. We have been overwhelmed by the spirit and perseverance of the sector during the crisis. We have recognised this not just by giving the tourism industry support through the first two phases of the economic resilience fund and through the non-domestic rates related grants, but also earmarking specifically £20 million from the latest phase of the economic resilience fund for those important sectors.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. You'll be aware because of your own constituency interests that Conwy and Denbighshire have a very vibrant tourism economy. They lost out, many of the tourism operators and the jobs that depend on those businesses, on the Easter season because of the lockdown earlier this year. The summer season started later than in any other part of the United Kingdom because of the Welsh Government continuing to cause those businesses to remain closed, and, of course, they now face the prospect, because of the local coronavirus restrictions, of not being able to receive any people travelling into Conwy and Denbighshire because of the travel restrictions that have been put in place.

I've had a number of businesses that have been in touch with me in recent days since the announcement last week. They are very, very concerned about the viability of their businesses. They say that livelihoods will almost certainly be lost as a result of those restrictions, and they do not feel that sufficient evidence has been published to demonstrate that they are proportionate. What work are you doing, as the economy Minister and the Minister for north Wales, to ensure that your Cabinet colleagues produce all of the information necessary so that tourism business owners and those who are employed by them can properly test whether these measures are actually proportionate?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question and assure the Member that the measures are proportionate? As I've already said, they're designed to ensure that the period in which restrictions apply is minimised, taking action early, limiting the amount of time that we have to apply those restrictions. On Monday, I met with members of the north Wales business council, including key representatives of the tourism and hospitality sectors, and outlined the reasons why restrictions are necessary in parts of north Wales.

I must highlight, once again—and I've been at pains to do this—that when the IMT met last week, it did so in partnership and agreed that the restrictions had to be introduced. That is a partnership of local government leaders, health experts and the police. We are, I can assure the Member, extremely concerned about the viability of businesses in the tourism and hospitality sector, which is so important to north Wales, and that is why we have delivered the most generous and comprehensive package of support for businesses in those sectors anywhere in the United Kingdom. As a result of that support, more than 1,200 micro and SMEs in the tourism and hospitality sectors, in north Wales alone, have been awarded funding through the economic resilience fund, and that's in addition to the many businesses that have secured funding through the development bank.

It's worth just highlighting today as well, if I may say so, Llywydd, that the development bank has been extraordinary in administering its support for businesses in Wales. I can tell Members today that it has administered 1,335 COVID-related business loans; that compares to every single high-street bank—every single high-street bank—having administered, on behalf of the UK Government, just 1,391. So, our development bank in Wales has administered and provided support to almost as many businesses as every single high-street bank, through the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme programme. That's a phenomenal achievement. We should be very proud of the Development Bank of Wales.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

5. Will the Minister provide an update on discussions with Transport for Wales regarding social distancing on public transport? OQ55645

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, absolutely. The safety of customers and staff remains TfW's top priority. I continue to discuss social distancing with Transport for Wales and, indeed, with other industry partners as we work collaboratively to ensure that the safety of passengers on public transport continues.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thanks for that answer, Minister. You'll be aware, I'm sure, of continuing concerns and anxiety surrounding Transport for Wales arrangements for students travelling from Torfaen and Monmouthshire to and from Hereford; it's an issue I raised with the Trefnydd yesterday, and she did say she'd raise it with you. Despite each child having paid for their season ticket in advance, students are being segregated from other passengers and transported on coaches, a journey that takes twice as long as by train. I'm told that the buses are inadequate and that there's no social distancing going on whatsoever. I wonder if you could update us on any discussions you've had with Transport for Wales about this and make clear to Transport for Wales that this situation is totally unacceptable and young people should be treated with the same respect and dignity as other fee-paying passengers.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Nick Ramsay for his question? I think I will write to the Member with comprehensive detail of the rationale behind the measures that have been taken by TfW. But just to highlight briefly that Transport for Wales are currently operating 70 buses, in addition to all of the trains, to support public transport across Wales, and students from the same educational establishments can travel together on dedicated buses under our safety guidelines. The reason that greater physical distancing is required on rail services is because they carry not just students but the general public as well. Now, TfW have tried to encourage students to travel on particular services in order to maintain bubbles for specific institutions, wherever possible, and that again is in line with Government requirements. But I spoke yesterday with Transport for Wales regarding this matter, and as I've already said, I can assure the Member that I'll be writing to him with some comprehensive detail.FootnoteLink

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

It's very important, of course, that staff and passengers are protected as appropriate steps are taken, but I do have a concern that train services in Anglesey are being struck too hard by the measures in place at present. I'm specifically referring to the fact that trains, for months now, don't stop in Valley or Llanfairpwll because the platform is too small to be able to open two doors. Will the Minister ask Transport for Wales to review this urgently and look for another way to mitigate the spread of the virus in a way that doesn't mean that the local vital service is being lost entirely? I'm sure there is another way to do this.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question and say that I'm extremely sympathetic to the point that he makes? Short platform challenges are a problem elsewhere in Wales as well, and TfW, I know, are regularly reviewing not just the figures concerning transmission of COVID, but also how they might be able to produce a novel solution to the challenge faced by stations that are too short to allow two doors to open. We do regularly review it, we will continue to do so, and as soon as we're able to allow services to stop at those stations, we will do so.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Minister, if our economy has any chance of surviving this pandemic, we have to learn to live with COVID-19. Living with the disease means that we have to keep apart from those not in our immediate family and for us to wear masks in enclosed spaces. Thankfully, masks are now mandatory on public transport, but keeping apart is more difficult. We have to ensure that not only can social distancing be maintained on public transport, but that there is sufficient capacity for those who need it. Minister, what discussions have you had with Transport for Wales and bus operators about increasing the frequency or capacity of services during this pandemic? Diolch.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question and the important points that she made about the responsibility that we all have as citizens in trying to overcome this challenge? I'm pleased to say, Llywydd, that based on surveys, based on field work, we're seeing an average of 95 per cent compliance of passengers wearing face coverings on both trains and buses. That's quite an impressive figure, and it's been increasing, as well. So, clearly, citizens are showing responsibility, by and large.

I can also assure the Member that all of Transport for Wales's trains are currently in use across the Wales and borders network and that we're working extensively to provide essential travel links to keep people moving. In addition to this, additional buses—as I've already said, 70 buses—are being utilised to provide home-to-school transport. We are maximising the number of vehicles that are available to support people, but because of the need to socially distance, obviously, capacity—the number of seats, the number of spaces available—has been vastly reduced. But we will continue to do whatever we can to keep people moving, to keep people commuting, to ensure that people and businesses can get through this pandemic.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

6. What support is the Welsh Government providing to hospitality businesses during the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55629

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I can tell the Member today that 672 micro and SME businesses in the hospitality sector in north Wales alone have been awarded funding through the economic resilience fund, and that amounts to more than £12 million. The third phase of the economic resilience fund will include a ring-fenced £20 million for businesses in tourism and hospitality.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. How do you respond to the hospitality sector representatives in north Wales who have asked me to advocate most strongly on behalf of full-licensed hotels being able to serve alcohol to hotel residents after the 10 p.m. curfew, emphasising the critical distinction be taken into consideration in that the hotel will become the guest's official residence during their stay, effectively their home, that a hotel has every incentive to abide by the curfew for non-residents in order to protect its licence, that although the current guidelines say that alcohol can be served via room service, this creates operational issues with staffing and will dull or destroy the overall ambience hoteliers are attempting to create, that this subtle clarification will help to keep hotels viable during the pandemic and the bleak winter hospitality is facing, and that this may also provide Welsh hotels with a slight competitive advantage?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I am extremely aware of the challenge that the hospitality sector is facing right now, but I have to say that small exceptions in isolation might be one thing, but once you grant an exception to one subsector for one particular area of activity, the door is then blown open for others to demand exceptions as well. In the aggregate, that can have a major impact on our ability to bring down transmission numbers. Of course, we will listen to any calls for exceptions, but there has to be an extraordinarily compelling reason to allow exceptions during these difficult times, because if we don't get transmission rates under control, particularly in those areas where there are restrictions, we will unfortunately see those restrictions last for longer. There is a role for all of us, as Caroline Jones has outlined this afternoon, not just to consider what we can and cannot do by the law, but also what we should and should not do as individuals responsible for one another. That does mean acting responsibly, it does mean taking responsibility not just for one's own life and behaviour but also for one's family and the community in which we live. We have to get through this as a team, as a society, and so whilst I've listened to calls for exceptions like the one that the Member has outlined, as I say, it would have to be a very, very compelling argument to support it.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Can I ask you, Minister, what discussions are you having with the brewery sector in all its diversity in Wales, from microbreweries to the growing independent, indigenous brewers that add to the Wales brand for top-quality local food and drink, like Brecon Brewing of Brecon and—wait for it—of Ogmore, to ensure that everything is being done to ensure the future of these local job-creating businesses as we work through the challenges of COVID? And what discussions have you had with the UK Government to ensure that they play their part in supporting these businesses and jobs too?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his question? He makes a very important point—that independent brewers are not just important for the food and drink sector, but actually they're important for our culture and identity. I've visited many independent brewers across Wales, and their contribution to the economy is quite extraordinary. They are creative, they show great resolve as well, when they're up against large international brewers, and so we've listened to them very carefully in terms of what support is required to assist them through this pandemic. Indeed, the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language, and the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, have established and regularly attend a hospitality stakeholder group to consider the impacts on the sector of the pandemic. The views of that group feed into the work that I take forward within my department, and I'm pleased to be able to say that the views of the independent brewery sector informed the decision to ensure that there is that £20 million fund specific to tourism and hospitality businesses. And, of course, independent brewers will be able to apply for business development grants, which could prove to be hugely, hugely helpful in transitioning to the post-COVID reality. But equally, you're right to say that the UK Government has an important role in this, and we've consistently called on the Chancellor to increase the level of support to sectors that are subject to Government restrictions, including hospitality.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 7 [OQ55656] has been withdrawn. Finally, therefore, question 8—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

8. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the Pembrokeshire economy for the next 12 months? OQ55633

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Everything possible. We have already awarded £9.5 million through the first two phases of the economic resilience fund, and a further £5.4 million through the Development Bank of Wales. That's gone to more than 700 businesses in Pembrokeshire.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that response, Minister. Now, I recently visited Nolton Stables, an accommodation provider and countryside riding facility in my constituency, which is one of many small tourism businesses that are in a very challenging financial position because of the COVID-19 pandemic. In response to the pandemic, the owners have also diversified their business to include a drive-in cinema as a way of helping keep the business afloat during this difficult time. Minister, could you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to specifically help businesses diversify and remain competitive in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

It sounds a really innovative scheme that that business has developed. I know that cinemas all across the UK are struggling, but hopefully in the case the Member has identified they'll be very successful. The whole purpose of the third phase of the economic resilience fund is to provide support through short periods of restrictions—but also through the business development grant to help businesses adjust and adapt to coronavirus and to Brexit. So, those business development grants are going to be awarded to businesses that have plans for survival and also plans to thrive after coronavirus, and to adapt. Those grants could be very significant indeed: £10,000 for small and microbusinesses, then grants of up to £150,000 for medium-sized enterprises, and £200,000 for larger employers—all designed to assist businesses in adapting to coronavirus and to the new reality that we now face.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition (in respect of his European Transition responsibilities)

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition, in respect of his European transition responsibilities. And the first question is from Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

1. What discussions has the Counsel General had about the impact of Brexit on the automotive sector in Wales? OQ55659

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Welsh Government is in regular discussion with the automotive sector regarding the potential impact of European Union exit. The UK Government's approach to the negotiations risks significant new barriers to trade being introduced. I have repeatedly made the case to the UK Government they must prioritise a deal that protects highly regulated manufacturing sectors in Wales, including the automotive sector.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Minister. The recent letter from Lord Frost to car manufacturers, ruling out any third-country cumulations as part of the trade deal, is a hugely concerning development. The sector has already warned of the devastating impact of a potential 'no deal' endpoint, and now it appears they are facing being cut out of any deal that might be possible, as the UK Government pursues other goals. Clearly, car manufacturers are being offered up as a sacrificial lamb by the UK Government, as it flails around for a last-minute deal that is politically palatable to its base support. Will you make the strongest possible case to UK Ministers to immediately put this industry back on the priority list in negotiations, where it should always have been?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Let me say I completely share the Member's concerns as she's outlined them. And when I read about the letter, which effectively confirmed the UK Government wouldn't insist upon the rules of origin, I was bemused. The UK Government seems more than capable of insisting upon other aspects of its negotiating position, including, for example, sacrificing the possibility of a generous trade deal in defence of the fisheries sector, which, whilst we don't want to see any sector suffering, is a significantly smaller contributor to economic well-being in Wales and across the UK than the automotive sector, which in Wales alone employs around 10,000 people. As she says, ambitious cumulation arrangements are absolutely vital. And even if the UK Government was able to secure a zero-tariff, zero-quota deal with the EU, if it hasn't got those cumulation arrangements in it, Welsh goods will still end up paying significant tariffs due to those rules of origin obstacles. I've made the case to the UK Government many times in relation to this question, and I've repeatedly raised that point with the UK Government around rules of origin and cumulation specifically. I wrote on 29 June, when, at that point, the UK Government was describing its objectives in terms of rules of origin quite ambitiously, and we would support that. But there is no point describing ambition if you're not prepared to deliver it in a negotiation.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

2. What recent steps has the Welsh Government taken to prepare for the UK leaving the European Union? OQ55655

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The impact of the end of transition will be significant and work has been under way across the Welsh Government on preparing for the range of scenarios we may face at the end of December. This includes developing our own bespoke interventions and working as well with the UK Government on preparedness projects.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

It's very important for Wales, I believe, that EU citizens living here continue to do so, and continue contributing to life in Wales, bringing their skills to our workforce and economy, enriching our culture and communities, taking a full part in life in Wales in all aspects. So, Counsel General, could you update us on the steps taken by Welsh Government to ensure that there is awareness of the settled status scheme, so that we do get a good level of applications from EU citizens in Wales, and hopefully the vast majority of them continue to live here in Wales and enrich our society in the way that they are?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, firstly, let me associate myself with the Member's comment in the question in relation to the contribution made by EU citizens who've chosen to make Wales their home. We want them to continue to feel the welcome that we've always extended, and to recognise the valuable contribution that they make, which is why this is such an important question.

Our central, recent concern has been in relation to more vulnerable or excluded groups who may not be able easily to access the scheme. We've tried to do what we can in terms of communications and social media campaigns, and we've allocated funding through the European transition fund, as he will recall, to organisations such as Citizens Advice—[Inaudible.]—local authorities and an expert service through an immigration law firm here in Wales.

What has happened, unfortunately, during the last few months, as a consequence of COVID, is that a number of those groups who've been working face-to-face with EU citizens have obviously not been able to do that, given constraints as a result of COVID. And there has been the temporary closure of a number of Home Office support services, for example. I have recently written to the Home Secretary to press her to consider extending the deadline for applications in light of that, so that, in particular, people who might struggle to identify the scheme, perhaps, have an opportunity to do that. The UK Government has refused to extend the deadline, and whilst they maintain that if someone has reasonable grounds for missing it, they will be given a further opportunity, clearly people need certainty about what lies ahead. So, we continue to press that case.

We know that there are about 70,000 people in Wales who may need to make an application. We think the applications are a little over 60,000 at this point, but, of course, only a small majority of those will have had settled status; a very significant proportion still have pre-settled status. But we seek to encourage EU citizens across Wales to apply at the earliest opportunity to the scheme.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Will the Minister make a statement on how his economic programme will support areas such as Blaenau Gwent?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As set out in our publication yesterday, we are committed—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Sorry, Minister—this is your supplementary question, Alun Davies, to question 2.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Yes, I've just asked it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, you didn't, you asked question 3 on the order paper. You made a request for a supplementary question for question 2.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm sorry. Will the Minister make a statement on the release of documents yesterday that showed that the UK Government has deliberately sought to keep information from the devolved administrations in terms of their plans for Brexit, and their plans for the internal market Bill?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that question. Behaviour such as withholding information from devolved administrations, in relation to the matter of preparedness on a question so significant as this, is fundamentally corrosive of the relationship of trust between Governments in the UK. What we have been able to say is that, in the area of preparation, joint working has been possible, and it has been effective, even if it has, at times, not been adequate. But where information is withheld, that causes the Welsh Government to have to revisit our level of assurance around the arrangements that have been put in place. And I was very disappointed, not least that yesterday I had a meeting with UK Government Ministers to describe food supply, and to see the information that was put in the public domain a matter of hours after that was particularly disappointing.

I've asked for an urgent meeting with Michael Gove, so that I can understand what's gone on here, and what other information we may not be having access to. What this suggests is that, where there is a policy or political difference between the governments in the UK, we cannot rely on full information being made available. And I think the reference in the extract that we saw yesterday to the internal market Bill just tells us, I think, how toxic that Bill is in terms of its impact on the relationship between Governments across the UK.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Minister, clearly, we had the Road Haulage Association before the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee last week, and one of their concerns was, not for themselves—they said they'd get things sorted out during the first two months of next year—but the concerns of clients, and the paperwork from customs issues in relation to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and border controls. They're deeply worried that there's not enough preparation being made to ensure that those clients are in a position to get that done in time, because they clearly stated that lorries would not be leaving unless they had the documentation ready. What discussions are you having with the UK Government, and particularly with HMRC, to ensure that the systems are in place to ensure that businesses in Wales are able to undertake the proper procedures and get the paperwork done, so that all their goods can travel to Europe without any delays whatsoever?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, subject to the concerns that I have just articulated more broadly, the level of engagement in relation to haulier preparedness and business preparedness more broadly hasn't been what it needs to be. There is a very practical set of interventions that will have a very real effect on routes to our ports, if freight operators are not able to arrive there with the level of preparation that's required. There will be a significant potential logistical knock-on effect to that. And as you say, as the Member says, there is a much broader ripple effect in terms of the preparedness of suppliers and businesses across the UK, and it remains the case that our confidence that that level of preparation amongst businesses is being undertaken is very low. That isn't a criticism of those businesses. Many of them are facing incredible pressures as a consequence of the response to COVID and, bluntly, even though we want to raise awareness that there is a need to prepare, nobody at this point can articulate exactly what's required in order to meet those new arrangements. And so that is exactly why there needs to be an urgent clarification around those requirements and stepped-up engagement, both with hauliers, but also enabling businesses to make those preparations in a sensible and pragmatic way, as the Member suggests.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The party spokespeople next. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Minister, the Welsh Government has rightly criticised the internal market Bill as an enormous power grab, which you say you will oppose every step of the way. You will be aware that Plaid Cymru MPs laid an amendment to the Bill at Westminster, which would have protected the devolution settlement by preventing the Bill from coming into force unless the devolved legislatures gave their consent. Now, despite the cross-party support of the SNP, Liberal Democrats and Greens, Labour MPs decided to abstain. Now, do you agree that Labour MPs did Wales a great disservice by failing to back an amendment that was fully consistent with the Labour Welsh Government's policy? Do you also agree that it was a missed opportunity to display a strong cross-party stance in defence of devolution? And can you explain how this fits with the stated Labour Party position of opposing the Bill every step of the way?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

There are certainly examples, Llywydd, of amendments put forward by the Labour Party to defend devolution, which Plaid Cymru haven't supported in Parliament. I would urge the Member that, at this point, we should be looking for ways of working together. We have a very productive relationship with the Scottish National Party in Scotland. It is a mature and collaborative relationship that acknowledges that Governments of different political colours can work together where they have a common interest. I hope, at some point, that we can persuade Plaid Cymru to have the same kind of relationship with us in Wales.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Of course, the Bill increases the likelihood of a 'no deal' Brexit. Business leaders are this week again warning of the risks of a 'no deal' on already fragile businesses currently suffering the impacts of the pandemic. So, what assessments, therefore, have you undertaken in terms of the multiple threats facing businesses in Wales in the event of a 'no deal'? And do you not agree that that analysis should be brought to this Chamber as a matter of urgency?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member will be aware that we have consistently modelled the impact on the Welsh economy and Welsh businesses of the range of scenarios that we may face, and there is a significant amount of evidence-based analysis in the public domain through the hands of the Welsh Government. At this point in time, as he will have heard me say to David Rees earlier, we are anxious to make sure that businesses in Wales are alert, amongst the range of other pressures that they face at the moment, to the need to prepare for the end of the transition period. We continue to keep the Brexit portal updated. We continue to make funding available to support businesses. The most recent iteration of the ERF has an eye on both COVID and Brexit preparedness, because these things needs to be looked at in the round, as I know the Member agrees. The task at this point is to try and guide businesses towards that, and as the picture becomes clearer—and I know that you will share my regrets that we are not able to provide a clearer picture at this point—businesses will have a better chance, as it were, to be able to make those preparations, but none of us should underestimate the scale of that challenge and the scale of the burden that imposes on businesses right across Wales.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

The—[Inaudible.]—will have a potentially catastrophic impact on the NHS—[Inaudible.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Dai Lloyd, can you restart the question, please? Sorry, we weren't able to hear you via your Zoom connection. So, just try again and we'll see where we get to.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I apologise, Llywydd. I'm naturally softly spoken, plainly. [Laughter.]

The British Medical Association have this week warned that a 'no deal' Brexit will have a potentially catastrophic impact on the NHS, with clear concerns around supply of pharmaceuticals, medical devices and protective equipment. We know that the Welsh Government have built up a Brexit warehouse of medical supplies and that these supplies have been utilised as part of the COVID response. Now, earlier this year, the pharmaceutical industry warned that some supplies had been completely used up. What assurances can you therefore give around the availability levels of medicines in the Brexit warehouse, given that we are potentially only a few months away from a potential 'no deal' Brexit?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank Dai Lloyd for raising this very, very important question in the Chamber today. This is obviously a key priority for us as a Government. And as with previous stages of preparation, some of the solutions are UK-wide and some of them are bespoke to Wales. So, in relation to medicines first, as he raises in his question, all four Governments in the UK are engaged in continuity of supply discussions. Parts of that are around express freight services, and parts of it are around supply disruption response. But there are additional steps that we are taking in Wales to give us additional assurance in relation to that, and some of that, as his question suggests, is about learning from the experience of COVID-19.

In relation to medical supplies, whether that's medical devices or clinical consumables, for example—and this, by the way, relates both to the NHS and to parts of the social care sector, for reasons that he will understand—we are reviewing and replenishing the Welsh stock holdings of MDCC products. We are testing and refining the plans that we had in place at the end of last year in anticipation of leaving without any sort of deal at all. And we still, as his question implies, benefit very significantly from investment in the warehouse storage facility and IP5 near Newport, which continues to be able to help us in our preparation work.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Conservative spokesperson next—Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Llywydd. I want to ask some questions in relation to the Minister's responsibility for COVID recovery. What consideration has the Minister given to older people as part of the Welsh Government's build back better project?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

We recognise the impact on various groups in Wales has been unequal of the COVID experience. Older people are amongst those and we will frame our response in light of that to be able to make sure that older people across Wales get the support they need in our response.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer, Minister, but there has been precious little evidence so far that you're taking the impact of the coronavirus on older people seriously. I was very surprised when I saw the coronavirus reconstruction challenges and priorities document published yesterday, with not a single reference to older people actually being in it. I understand that you've held a number of round-tables, including one that was entitled, and I quote, 'Planning for Economic and Social recovery from the Coronavirus pandemic: Annex 2: Vulnerable Groups'. Yet even that particular round-table did not involve anybody from the older people's commissioner's office. In fact, I understand that the older people's commissioner was not invited to meet you and, in fact, her office had to make a request to meet you and it wasn't until that time that you actually did meet with her to discuss her concerns around the impact on older people. So, can I ask you: why is it that you've got such a blind spot for older people as a Welsh Government when it comes to including them within your COVID reconstruction efforts?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I certainly don't accept the premise of the Member's question. Whether it's in relation to the challenges from isolation, the support required for people who are shielding, perhaps, the support required from third sector organisations, the particular set of interventions required from public services to acknowledge the experience of older people in this pandemic, whether it's about acknowledging the particular contribution that older volunteers have been able to make in a very positive way to supporting other people in their communities during this time, whether it's a particular recognition of the needs of older people who might be at risk of losing their jobs and particular support that they might need that is tailored for people at the latter part of a work journey—all of those are absolutely fundamental to the interventions that we've made to date and our continuing discussions.

I have met with the older people's commissioner. I can't assure him in relation to whose office made the first approach to which person in relation to any of the very large range of meetings that we've held with stakeholders in relation to this, but I've certainly found the discussion with the older people's commissioner, which happened I think at a comparatively early stage, very productive and demonstrated a very good and positive meeting of minds.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

It's very nice to hear your warm words about older people now; it's a shame that none of them were contained in any of the documents that were published by your office yesterday. And, of course, you didn't reference older people either in your statement to this Senedd. And perhaps, frankly, if you'd been more supportive of my older people's rights Bill when it was presented to this Senedd, we might be in a slightly different position. I can assure you that the commissioner's office has made it clear to me that she had to put the request in to your office for the meeting, which you eventually did have, and not the other way around.

Look, we all know that older people have faced serious consequences as a result of the pandemic and, in fact, they've been disproportionately impacted by it. We know that they're more likely to die, they're more likely to suffer serious illness, more likely to have to self-isolate, more likely to suffer the impact of loneliness as a result of this pandemic. And, of course, they're more likely to be victims of the even longer delays that we are now going to have in accessing NHS tests and treatments as a result of the backlog that has built up in our health service during the pandemic. Now, the recovery plan you published yesterday, for all your warm words today, does not address a single one of those challenges. So, I ask you: will you now agree with me that there needs to be a further round-table specifically focusing on the needs of older people, bringing experts together, including the older people's commissioner and other important stakeholders in the third sector and the public sector, so that we can make sure that we get this right and that older people can be confident that the Welsh Government is actually listening to and addressing their concerns, not, frankly, ignoring them, as you have been to date?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, there is an ongoing range of engagement with stakeholders in relation to this document. As I said yesterday in my statement, this is the beginning of a national conversation, and the conversation we've had has been rich, it has had a range of voices, sometimes complimentary, sometimes more challenging, in the way that these things are, and we welcome all of that, and we will continue on the same basis to engage with everybody affected by COVID in Wales and to listen to their voices, and to reflect their voices faithfully in our considerations.

I invite the Member to look at page 22 of the document, where he'll find priority 8, which itself talks about supporting the NHS to make up lost ground in terms of treatment of non-coronavirus-related conditions, and sets out across the balance of that page a number of interventions that the Government will undertake. I don't know if he got that far in the document, but it makes specific reference to reinstating routine services, which we absolutely recognise, as I'm sure all Members do. People who've been waiting longer as a consequence have made their own particular contribution in the response to COVID, and this Government absolutely recognises that. As I mentioned in my response to his question yesterday, the health Minister, of course, will be making further statements in relation to this in addition to the statement recently made about the winter protection plan.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 3—try again, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Thank you very much for your patience, Presiding Officer.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

3. Will the Counsel General make a statement on how the Welsh Government's coronavirus recovery programme will benefit Blaenau Gwent? OQ55642

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As set out in the publication yesterday, we are committed to a reconstruction that works for the people of Wales, including Blaenau Gwent, by addressing the issues that matter to us most: unemployment, entrenched inequalities, affordable housing, the revitalisation of town centres, and support for the foundational economy.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. I'm also grateful to the Minister for his statement yesterday. Blaenau Gwent is a part of the country, of course, that will lose out more in terms of funding than almost any other county borough. Blaenau Gwent has relied on funding from the European Union in terms of connectivity, both investing in railway and the dualling of the A465. People in Blaenau Gwent have benefited from European funding, of course, in terms of training and apprenticeships as well. So, both our place and our people have benefited in the past. I know the Minister has worked hard over the last few years to ensure that these funding streams will be maintained, and I know that the United Kingdom Government has let him down and let us down, and broken the promises that they've made. So, how will the Welsh Government pick up the pieces of those broken Tory promises and ensure that we have the budget, that we have the funds available for a long-term programme to sustain and support people in Blaenau Gwent and our communities in Blaenau Gwent?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that important question on behalf of his constituents, and he raises matters that affect the daily lives of his constituents, as they do mine and others in the Chamber. He's absolutely right to say that his constituency and, indeed, mine and others will have benefited significantly from some of those programmes, and he is right to articulate his disappointment about the UK Government's failure to live up to its promises to make sure that Wales continues to have that funding, and that people in Wales get to make the decisions for Wales, which is the guiding principle of devolution and a promise that the UK Government should be living up to.

We know from their recent moves in Parliament that they're seeking to undermine that, looking for powers to spend money in Wales where the Welsh Government could spend that better on behalf of the people of Wales. His constituents will have lost out by virtue of the fact that the UK Government has failed to live up to its existing financial responsibilities, whether that's to do with the rail network, whether it's to do with the energy system or digital connectivity—all of those things are massively underfunded and they're responsibilities of the UK Government.

What we are seeking to do is to make the case that the UK Government should keep its promises in relation to this so that we can continue to support communities like Blaenau Gwent with future programmes, but also, as he will have seen in the document published yesterday, to seek to stimulate the economy for the benefit of all parts of Wales, including Blaenau Gwent, from investment in schools, in road maintenance, in health infrastructure, in care infrastructure, in housing and in energy upgrades. All of those are designed to stimulate the economy, to help people keep work and to get new work, and that is at the heart of the challenge that the Government will be setting its sights on addressing over the coming months.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

4. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the impact of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill on the port of Holyhead? OQ55632

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

As it stands, the proposed UK internal market Bill is an assault on devolution and will be detrimental to the whole of Wales. There are elements in the Bill that create a particular risk to our ports, including Holyhead, and we will do our utmost to limit any detrimental impact.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much. There's very real concern that the Bill could lead to trade being lost from Holyhead to ports in England and Scotland that go straight to Northern Ireland, and, with a third of the Holyhead-Dublin traffic going to or from Northern Ireland, that risk is very clear, and that's on top of the risk of more crossings going directly from the Republic of Ireland to continental Europe. I'm also concerned about the impact of the checks that will be required on lorries. I’ve already warned that there’s no space in the port itself. The UK Government has paid hardly any attention to Holyhead as compared to Dover, for example, and now with just weeks to go they are digging around for a location, suggesting totally inappropriate places such as the Sioe Môn ground, which would mean that there would be heavy traffic in that area 24 hours a day. Now, I know that the Welsh Government is in negotiations with the county council on this, but can you give us an assurance that you, like me and the council and my fellow Plaid Cymru Members in Westminster, are urging the UK Government in the strongest terms possible to ensure that everything possible is done to ensure the flow of trade through Holyhead and to secure the future of a port that is so important for Ynys Môn and the whole of Wales?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member is right to raise this issue in the way that he has and I agree with his analysis. There is a great risk implicit in this and we’ve lost a significant period at the start of the year when we could have been making arrangements for work to ensure that this happens in a sensible way that is planned, not in the way that it’s being done now.

In terms of communication with the UK Government on this, I was in a meeting yesterday, making the exact points that the Member has suggested, to ensure that work is being done urgently to look at appropriate locations, to ensure that that happens in partnership with us as a Government, and with local government and with the companies that use the port and the port itself, and also the question of which checks are going to be undertaken. I’ve written to the UK Government to get some assurance that the same kinds of checks happen in England and Scotland, to avoid a situation where there is an incentive for lorries to go on different routes, and I think that's at the forefront of the Member's mind. So, we are putting pressure on this and we’re waiting for information from the UK Government about the impact of transport being delayed in and outside the port, which will be vital to the arrangements that we make on the ground. So, I can give him some assurance that we are raising these issues regularly. We have a ministerial meeting this afternoon to discuss this, because it’s so important.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the risk of disruption to fresh food supplies if the UK Government fails to secure a trade deal with the EU before the end of the transition period? OQ55628

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, without a deal, there will be a serious risk of delays to the import of fresh produce into the UK as well as price increases as a result of tariffs. A co-ordinated UK approach is essential to minimise the potential impacts on food supply, and information put in the public domain yesterday will cause us to re-evaluate our level of assurance in relation to these arrangements.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I'm most grateful to Guido Fawkes for revealing that the transition period planning assumptions of the UK Government—which will confirm the worst fears that I have been raising for the last several months—is that a 'no deal' on trade with the European Union would lead to a tightening of supply, an increase of demand for agri-food products, and the effect of this disruption, I quote,

'is likely to be reduced supply availability, especially of certain fresh products.'

I think perhaps the most disturbing thing about the information that was raised earlier by my colleague Alun Davies is that the civil servant notes in this document that they were instructed not to share this assumption with devolved authorities, but they acknowledged it will have an impact on devolved authorities and their planning. Now, we are not talking about caviar being flown in from the Black sea—we are talking about everyday vegetables and fruit that we have come to rely on as a result of being 40 years in a single market. So, this is extremely serious. So, in addition to seeking an immediate meeting with Michael Gove as to why information is being withheld from the devolved administrations, what can we now do to try and avert this potential disaster for ordinary people and their daily food?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Member for that important supplementary. Let me be very clear at the start: aspects of food supply are devolved, but the question of food crossing the border into the UK is obviously fundamental to supply, and that is entirely the responsibility of the UK Government, and any restrictions on supply will be a matter of the outcome of choices made by the UK Government.

Now, I share her concern in relation to what we read in the meeting notes yesterday. I had a meeting yesterday with the UK Government in relation to food supply and impressed upon them the need for joint working in relation to this area. So, the context in which the material was in the public domain was very disturbing to us. What we are doing in Wales is making sure that we are speaking to the supermarkets in Wales to make sure that we understand their logistical arrangements, to understand that there will be an equity of distribution in relation to food produce coming into the UK. I have made the point very forcibly that—and the environment Minister, by the way, makes these points as well—there is a risk in terms of food prices next year increasing, and that at a time when people are suffering, in terms of their livelihoods, from COVID and the choices made by the UK Government to discontinue the enhancement to universal credit.

So, these are potentially very significant challenges for the most vulnerable people. Even if the overall supply of food isn't affected, the cost of it for people in those income groups could be—the effect of that could be very significant. We will continue to do all we can to make sure that we get those assurances about equity of distribution, but the question of supply into the UK is one that necessarily we need to work with the UK Government on.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Minister, it is right to acknowledge there may—and I emphasise may—be some disruption to food supplies coming from the continent post Brexit, but do you not agree that this could give a huge opportunity for the UK and Wales to become far more self-sufficient in our food production? British farmers are some of the most efficient and innovative in the world and husbandry standards are amongst the highest. I am sure the British public would far prefer to buy home-grown produce, especially given the fact that farming practices in Spain, for instance, where much of our imports of fruit and vegetables come from, are far from desirable. It is evidenced that immigrant labour is being shamefully exploited, with low wages, long hours and very sub-standard living accommodation. Given such practices, does the Attorney-General not agree with me that it is far more desirable for us to produce such foods at home, where exploitation does not exist, or at least is far less prevalent?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I have no idea what the Attorney-General's view on this is, but what I would say is there are two—. The Member's question is premised on two assumptions that are fundamentally misconceived: firstly, that we should be prepared to tolerate restrictions on food supply, if that is what happens, and an increase in costs, if that is what happens, because of a future long-term benefit. I completely disagree with him that that is an acceptable way to proceed. And the second error that he's making in the assumptions is that our current arrangements are in any way preventing the development of that kind of sector in the UK. I completely agree with him: we want to see an increasingly vibrant agricultural and horticultural sector in Wales and across the UK. I don't accept for a moment that the current arrangements are a barrier to that.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

6. Will the Counsel General provide an update on the Our Future Wales consultation on support for future post-COVID-19 recovery and reconstruction? OQ55638

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Since its launch in May, the 'Our Future Wales' consultation has been very successful. We received just over 2,000 submissions from stakeholders and members of the public, telling us about what matters to them. Those submissions have informed the priorities for recovery and reconstruction that we published yesterday.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Minister, could I thank you for joining me recently in an online event where you engaged very deeply and thoughtfully with dozens of questions from the public on post-COVID recovery and reconstruction? So, recognising the immense challenges ahead of the pandemic and of the EU 'deal' or 'no deal' scenarios, and without coming across all Johnsonian now, oozing fantasy optimism about 'world beating' this, 'moonshot' that, driving JCBs through flimsy polystyrene walls, is there any real note of optimism that he can give to the people of Wales—especially young people—about how we get through this well, and do it in a way that is better and fairer for our jobs and economy, better for our environment, and better and fairer for society as a whole?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I do think the point the Member makes is very important, because whilst the overall effect of COVID on our lives is obviously very detrimental, we have learnt to do things differently in some ways in the last few months, and we will want to hold onto those ways where they're better ways of proceeding.

So, in the economy, for example, we have seen, despite the overwhelming impact on businesses in Wales, that there have been opportunities for some businesses to look at different product lines in terms of personal protective equipment and so on and supplies to the NHS. And there's been a level of innovation in relation to that that has been positive for those businesses, and we want, obviously, to be able to encourage that. In relation to the way we've approached public services working together, delivering some of their services increasingly online—we've seen that in the health service; we've seen that in local government—that won't work for everybody but it'll work for a lot of people and it will allow reconfiguration of some of those services to deliver ever better services to people in Wales.

We've also seen—and he acknowledges this in his question—a renewed enthusiasm across the public, I would say, for making sure this is a green response to COVID. I know he will welcome the investment that's already been made in terms of active travel and in terms of renewables and in terms of similar interventions, and the document we published yesterday I think very hopefully describes an optimistic way of taking forward that agenda in relation to decarbonising our economy, supporting biodiversity, improving air quality, and also, at the same time, many of those interventions also help stimulate the economy, also help to create skills pipelines and provide a number of other benefits.

So, part of the message I wanted to make sure was conveyed yesterday was that some of the responses that the Government have necessarily are to mitigate the damage that COVID will have caused in the long term, but some of it is to identify those points of positivity that he suggests and to try and build on those.

Michelle Brown (Independent, North Wales)

7. What submissions has the Welsh Government made to the House of Commons inquiry into legal aid, given concerns regarding difficulties in accessing legal aid during the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55653

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The Government's submission to the inquiry will be to highlight to the House of Commons Justice Committee's attention the Commission on Justice in Wales report. The commission described a dire situation, which we are likely to discover will have deteriorated further during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Michelle Brown (Independent, North Wales)

I thank the Counsel General. It's been widely reported that, during COVID-19 lockdowns, we've seen an increase in cases of domestic abuse. Legal aid is still available for divorce cases where there has been domestic abuse, because the UK Government recognises that often, in order to make a safe, clean break from their abuser, a person will need to go to court for a divorce, a financial settlement, or, most importantly, to sort out appropriate arrangements over access to children.

When two-child benefit caps were introduced, Labour made great play of the fact that women with a third child born from rape may have to prove that they were raped or answer very personal questions if they needed to be exempted from the benefit cap. Labour felt the process may stop women from claiming, and, for those who did, the questioning may cause them distress. The same could apply, though, to people who have suffered abuse who need legal aid to get a much-needed divorce. They may feel a misplaced embarrassment about suffering the abuse. They may feel they have to prove it took place. They may not have reported it to the police, and be concerned that raising such allegations may inflame the situation again, something they live in fear of.

Now I appreciate that the issue of legal aid is not devolved, but what is devolved is your Government's ability to help all survivors of domestic abuse, particularly those who feel too afraid to say what's happened to them. For that reason, would you please consider trying to find the budget to fund representation in divorce cases? Means testing any help would be understandable, but please don't make abused people have to flag up their status, because many of them won't, and they and their children will continue to suffer as a consequence.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, the Member makes a series of very important points, and I appreciate the way in which she is raising this extremely sensitive matter. A well-designed legal aid scheme would address the challenges that the Member raises in her question. We are a long way away from that as a consequence of cuts in the budget over the last number of years at a UK Government level. We would wish to be in a position, in Wales, where those matters were in our hands, so that we could design a system that tackled precisely the sorts of challenges that Michelle Brown raises in her question. She will know that where we have been able to intervene in providing advice services and support for domestic violence, we have been able to do that. But the sorts of interventions that she is describing necessarily require very significant intervention, and absolutely that is why if the UK Government wishes, as it were, to continue with these powers being reserved, it is incumbent on them to provide the funding to deliver the levels of protection that individuals in those circumstances need. But I would refer her to the document that we published yesterday, which recognises that over the course of the last few months the incidence of domestic violence has increased, and we will be looking to further support domestic violence services within the resources that we have, as was flagged in the document yesterday.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

8. What discussions has the Counsel General had regarding the impact of a no-deal Brexit on the manufacturing industry in Mid and West Wales? OQ55637

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

The UK Government's approach to the negotiations means the manufacturing sector will face significant new barriers to trade in any event, and these will be worse if there is no agreement. The UK Government must prioritise negotiating a deal that protects the economy, including highly regulated manufacturing sectors in Wales.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his answer. We had representatives of the steel industry in front of the economy committee, and they were highlighting the dangers of a 'no deal' Brexit as potentially very serious for their future. This, obviously, has a big effect potentially on the Trostre steel plant in Llanelli. What further representations can the Welsh Government make to the UK Government with regard to the importance of retaining the steel industry here in Wales, and those parts of it that are in the mid and west region?

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Well, I echo the Member's concern. Our friends in the steel sector continually make the argument to us, which we accept and agree, that the sort of scenario that she envisages would be very, very detrimental to steel production in Wales and in the UK. I can assure her that the Minister for the economy has an ongoing dialogue with steel producers in Wales, and across the economy actually, in relation to other sectors as well that are potentially adversely affected by Brexit, and the consequences of leaving the European transition period without a significant deal focused on supporting livelihoods, focused on supporting those foundational sectors in our economy. The risks of doing so are very significant and he continues to be in regular discussion both with steel producers, but also the UK Government on these issues.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Counsel General.

3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the topical questions, and two have been accepted today. And the first is to be answered by the Minister for economy and to be asked by Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

1. What support is the Welsh Government providing to Stadco following news that it intends to close its factory in Llanfyllin, affecting 129 employees? TQ486

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, can I express my sympathy for everybody working at the site? This is understandably devastating news, and my officials are in direct contact with the company, and they're exploring all potential options and available support.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Minister. This is, of course, the largest employer in the Llanfyllin area, and this has come as a serious blow to Llanfyllin and to all the families that are affected at the plant. My understanding, from speaking to the local county councillor, Peter Lewis, is that the company, which is owned by Magna International, is intending to restructure its UK operations, and this will affect 129 people who will lose their jobs.

What is particularly sad is that only recently the company made a £2 million investment into the factory—that was last year—and had intended to make a further £2 million investment next year. Now, we all know, of course, that the pandemic is drastically affecting the car manufacturing industry, and this has, of course, a knock-on effect on companies like Stadco, but I know that you will agree with me in saying that what was a successful and viable business in 2019 should be a successful business in 2021. Stadco is just too important a company in north Powys to allow it to close without making every effort to find a workable solution.

So often, we hear of redundancies being made immediately. In this case, these redundancies aren't due to come into effect until the end of 2021. So, I am pleased to hear that your officials have already spoken with the company, but I wonder whether you could also outline what else the Welsh Government can do, from your conversations with your officials, what else they can do during this consultation period to ultimately attempt—attempt—to safeguard these jobs at this plant.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Russell George for his questions and for the points that he rightly makes about the importance of this site to the community that it serves and the community that relies on it for well-paid jobs? Our regional team is already working to look at how we can support the community. We do have a good relationship with the company. We've offered a joint meeting with them and the Welsh Automotive Forum, and the purpose of that meeting is to explore every possible option for retaining the factory and to identify any alternative work streams.

Our understanding is that the rationale behind the decision is that there's been a general decline in the automotive industry—that there's overcapacity and this has been exacerbated by coronavirus. But, the Member is absolutely right that they recently invested in the site. Of course, just two years ago, there was a similar consolidation effort undertaken by the business when it closed the Shrewsbury facility. They continued operations here in Wales, in Telford and at Castle Bromwich, but my understanding is that, as well as proposing to close the site in Powys, they're looking at cutting staff at the two remaining sites as well.

My officials have already met with senior human resources managers and we've signposted them to relevant support, including, of course, the ReAct funding and wider Welsh Government employability programmes. But, our focus, I can assure Russell George, is on retaining the factory and securing the jobs. We have a 45-day period of consultation taking place and we will explore every single opportunity that there might be for this business.

I should say that I also met with the Welsh Automotive Forum just two weeks ago, where we discussed the state of the industry. Clearly, with multiple challenges, the sector is experiencing deep uncertainty and anxiety, but the manufacturing plan that we've published was widely welcomed; it should serve to support the sector.

But, should the jobs ultimately be lost, then we will be implementing ReAct support, and that will include the offer of grants to acquire new skills; it will offer reimbursement of travel costs and childcare costs whilst training; and, of course, there'll be employer recruitment support, with the offer of up to £3,000 to employers who recruit people who have been affected. But, ultimately, we wish to help the site remain open and we will explore every option for doing just that.

Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Can I thank Russell George for putting this very important question to the Minister today? I'm grateful to the Minister for all that he's said with regard to what has been done so far. Can I just ask him to be absolutely clear that he and his officials will take the most flexible approach possible to any potential business support to enable these jobs to be retained?

A hundred and twenty-nine jobs in a community the size of Llanfyllin is the equivalent of some hundreds, even thousands, in a larger community. While I understand what he says about ReAct, the chance for people to get alternative employment close enough to their homes is not good at the moment. So, can he give us an assurance today that he and his officials will take the most flexible approach possible, if there is any possibility that additional investment from the Government would enable the company to stay?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, absolutely, I can offer Helen Mary Jones that assurance. Just recently, I was able to point to something of a success in terms of retaining some employment opportunities, that being at the Laura Ashley plant, again in Powys, where I think we were able to look at a number of opportunities and we were able to ultimately support the opportunity that has led to a number of people being retained. And we'll do exactly that with this particular site. It's vital because, as Helen Mary Jones said, 129 jobs within a community as small as Llanfyllin is like a 1,000 jobs in a community as large as a small city or a major town. So, it's vitally important that we do what we can to retain those jobs, if it can be achieved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd, and I thank you for accepting this question today, because I asked for a statement yesterday. But what's important here is, I think, registering two facts. And the first one, it seems to me, is that the 129 people who are employed here were the last to know, and that should never be the case. So, going on from that, Minister, I heard what you've said, you're working with various people, but clearly there's a role for the trade unions here as well as the private sector.

You say that there's a 45-day consultation period and ReAct grants to acquire new skills, but the one thing that strikes me in this particular area is that there is a huge ability within Powys to innovate, particularly with new skills. We could link that innovation to this particular area with these particular skills through that ReAct programme, looking forward, to prevent further depopulation of this area. Because it is an area that is increasingly becoming depopulated, and all the evidence is there to back that up. So, it would be worse than 129 jobs if the families connected to those had to move out of the area to find work. So, I suppose my question is this: using the innovation that exists within the Powys area to drive forward the change that we've seen that is happening fairly rapidly, which you mentioned in your report yesterday, and using that facility to keep those people there, but, more than that, to grow jobs to prevent that depopulation from going any further.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Joyce Watson makes a number of important points, and of course the role of the foundational economies can be crucially important within the community. I'm in no doubt there are small businesses that can identify how the company has been supporting them, whether they're directly in the automotive supply chain or whether they're a local newsagents, butcher or baker. This will have an impact, should the facility close and jobs be lost, on a number of smaller businesses within the area. That's why I think it's important that we look at this challenge in the round and deploy the regional team to examine the wider impact on the community and small businesses in the area.

Joyce Watson is absolutely right: the social partnership and the involvement of the unions could be critically important in ensuring that workers get the right support, not just signposting to other opportunities and support in accessing ReAct funding and skills opportunities, but also emotional support right now, because this will be an incredibly difficult time for people. The announcement has come as we look towards Christmas; it's come at a time when, because of coronavirus, there are likely to be significant job losses, so there are going to be greater competition for opportunities out there.

One thing I would say, though, that is something of a positive, is that those affected—should their jobs be lost, should they lose that employment that they've been able to enjoy for quite some time, then they will be able to access support as part of the £40 million employability and skills intervention that I announced recently, and that includes a job matching service. Obviously, there will be fewer opportunities in that rural part of Wales than there might be in a more urban area, but we will endeavour to match as many people as possible—should they lose their jobs at the end of the consultation period—with other well-paid, highly skilled opportunities.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for health, and is to be asked by Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

2. What assessment has the Minister made of supply chain issues affecting Roche Pharmaceuticals, and its implications on testing capacity in the Welsh NHS? TQ492

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Public Health Wales have confirmed that this issue does not affect their capacity for COVID-19 antigen tests, as Roche swabs are not used, nor will it affect other Public Health Wales tests. In relation to wider health-board-delivered testing services, I have asked my officials to urgently review and report back to me.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Minister, for that response, and I welcome the assurance that, obviously, COVID testing is unaffected by this news today. But importantly, obviously, this warehouse supplies other testing products to the NHS across the whole of the United Kingdom, in the field of cancer, cardiology, thyroid testing, and also electrolyte testing—in fact, it's a market leader in electrolytes. Other parts of the NHS in the UK have issued restrictions on blood testing—just for essential services only. Can you give an assurance today, or certainly in the short term, that there will be no disruption to blood testing in particular in the NHS in Wales, and if you can't give that assurance today, can you make sure that you make it available to Members as quickly as possible after you've had that information back?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I discussed this very point with my officials this afternoon, Llywydd, and that's why I'm seeking urgent reassurance from our officials. In terms of the tests that Public Health Wales carry out, including, for example, sexual health testing and cell pathology, they're the things that I'm most concerned about. We do have some stock that is left within Public Health Wales and other health boards, but I want assurance on how that affects each health board. I'm happy to issue an update to Members in the form of a written statement once I have that assurance. Roche themselves have said that they think the supply issues will take two weeks to resolve. Obviously, we want to see that happen sooner rather than later. But as I said, I'll issue a written statement to update Members and the public on the actual position here in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Having lost Roche testing capacity early on in the pandemic, I'm pleased to hear that you're not expecting an impact on COVID testing in Wales. Now, can I just ask one question? Simply, what assurances have you had that if Roche's problems hit other services across the UK, including Wales, Wales won't be cut first or hit disproportionately?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There's no suggestion of that at present. But as I said, that's why I'm seeking the assurance, not just from my officials, but from health boards directly, about the position they find themselves in with this unexpected supply chain interruption. And that's what I will cover in the written statement. Obviously, it would not be acceptable if Wales were hit disproportionately, or in a different way, and other parts of the UK were preferred; I expect every part of the UK to be treated in a manner that is generally fair. But it is good news that, because of the way we deliver our testing service here in Wales, the COVID testing will not be affected by this issue.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the 90-second statements. There is one statement this week, and that's to be presented by Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. October marks Breast Cancer Awareness Month, and aside from wearing pink, I want to mark it in another, more personal way—to talk about my journey with breast cancer, to point out that you can survive this terrible disease, and to urge women across Wales to take the threat seriously, and to check, check, check.

It has been 13 years since I found a suspicious dent in my breast, a dent that indicated there was a cancerous tumour beneath it. And thanks to finding it early, and some amazing doctors and nurses, I am still here. It took five operations and gruelling chemotherapy, but I am here to tell the tale of how I survived one of the biggest killers in Wales of women. And I can think of no better way to pay tribute, to give thanks, than by helping to raise awareness by marking Breast Cancer Awareness Month. I urge every woman in Wales to regularly check their breasts for lumps and bumps and dents, and if they find anything suspicious, to get it checked out.

In my spare time, I often talk to people on a one-to-one basis as a buddy for breast cancer, and people tell me that it really does help. Despite coronavirus, the NHS is still open for business. Please don't leave it. Please get it checked. I am living proof that you can survive breast cancer if you contact people early enough, and I send my love and support to all people undergoing tests and treatment for breast cancer. Diolch yn fawr.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We will now take a short break.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Order. Order. The Senedd is back in session.

5. Standards of Conduct Committee Report—Report 01-20

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

We move to item 5, the Standards of Conduct Committee report, and I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to move the motion.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. As temporary Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee I formally move the motion.

The committee considered the report from the acting commissioner for standards in relation to a complaint made against Vikki Howells MS regarding the improper use of the Senedd estate. I'd just like to clarify that it wasn't in Vikki's personal capacity; it was in her capacity as chair of the Labour group. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that is appropriate in this case.

The facts relating to the complaint, and the committee’s reasons for its recommendation, are set out in the full committee report. Since the agreement of this report in March 2020, the chief executive and clerk, in her role as accounting officer, has issued an update: 'Rules and Guidance on the Use of Senedd Resources'. These were circulated to Members on 4 September, and came into effect at the beginning of this term. The Standards of Conduct Committee welcomes the updated rules and considers that they will help significantly in bringing clarity to the use of Senedd resources.

The motion tabled today invites the Senedd to endorse the committee’s recommendation.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I accept the committee's report and its recommendations. It was never my intention to breach the guidance that is in place. I'm pleased that the Standards of Conduct Committee is currently reviewing a range of issues, including the guidance provided to Members. I hope that this will ensure that the rules are clear, reasonable and well understood in future, so that other Members do not inadvertently find themselves in this situation.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

I speak in my role as Plaid Cymru business manager and chief whip. We accept the content of this report and we will be voting in favour of it. However, I do believe that there are broader issues arising from this case, as the commissioner recognises, which raise important questions about the maturity of our democracy and our ability to recognise the totally appropriate interweaving between our party political work as Members and our parliamentary work, but that we are clear that there is a boundary between the two and that that should be respected.

So, I suppose the first question is: where does that boundary lie? And do the rules and guidance in place make that clear and provide sufficient guidance to Members and their staff? As the commissioner says in the case of this inquiry, it is

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

'almost inconceivable that at any party meeting during an election period there will not be some discussion of the forthcoming election.'

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

It is crucial for the smooth running of the Senedd and to secure a vibrant democracy that there is a safe space for political groups to discuss and arrange their work in a way that recognises the party-political context. It is also crucial that there is an appropriate opportunity for opposition parties within a particular framework to use their resources to develop an alternative policy programme.

The commissioner is of the view in the report that more clarity is required within the rules, particularly around election periods. And I do welcome the work that has already been undertaken to publish a new version of the guidance on the use of resources and the Senedd estate.

I also welcome, however, the commitment from the Commission that the new guidance can be kept under review and that it will be possible to refine it further this side of the election in order to ensure that it does properly retain that appropriate balance between party-political and parliamentary work and without any unintended consequences.

No further action is recommended against Vikki Howells and I do think that that is proportionate. However, this case has taken up a great deal of time for everyone who's been involved in the process. It is important, therefore, that there's an ability for the complaints system to carry out its functions appropriately and clearly. As we move forward, we do need to ensure that complaints that reach Plenary, and all the steps leading to that, merit such a response. Thank you.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Andrew R.T. Davies to reply.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to the two Members who contributed to the debate and to Vikki Howells's acknowledgment of and support for the report's findings. I hear the comments of Siân Gwenllian and I'm sure they will be fed into the review that the committee's undertaking into the code, and I'd welcome any other Member's contribution to that review that the committee is undertaking at the moment. I also welcome Siân Gwenllian's endorsement of the committee's findings and the report. I formally move the report.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I see no Member objecting. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Motion to delegate authority to make the arrangements for recruiting a new Commissioner for Standards to the Chief Executive and Clerk

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Item 6 is a Standards of Conduct Committee debate: the recruitment of the commissioner for standards. And I call on the Chair of the committee, Jayne Bryant, to move the motion.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, acting Presiding Officer. Can I just—is it possible to clarify something first of all, acting Presiding Officer?

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Yes. Please, go ahead, go on.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Sorry—the first point is to move the motion to delegate authority for making arrangements for recruiting a new standards commissioner.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Yes, that is the case. Then there is another motion—

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Yes.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

—on the remuneration of the acting commissioner.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you. I formally move the motion to delegate authority for making the arrangements for recruiting a new commissioner for standards to the Clerk of the Senedd.

The National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure 2009 sets out that the arrangements for recruiting a new commissioner be delegated to either in whole or in part to the Commission, to the Committee on Standards of Conduct or to the staff of the Senedd.

This motion seeks to delegate that authority to the Clerk of the Senedd, while recognising that the final decision for the appointment would remain with the Senedd as stipulated by the Measure.

Acting Llywydd, it's the Standards of Conduct Committee's aim to ensure that a commissioner is recruited who is able to help maintain the high standards of conduct required for a Parliament, and therefore, if this motion is passed today, it is our intention to work with the Clerk during this recruitment to help recruit the best possible person to this very important role.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

No speakers have indicated they wish to be called in this debate, and therefore I assume that you don't want to speak again to the matter, Jayne. I therefore say that the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I see no Member objecting, and therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Standards of Conduct Committee Report—The Acting Commissioner for Standards' Pay

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

We now move to item 7—Standards of Conduct Committee debate on the remuneration of the acting commissioner for standards. And I call the Chair of the committee, Jayne Bryant, to move the motion.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Diolch, acting Llywydd. I move the motion to approve the report and recommendation. The committee's report sets out a proposal to amend the acting commissioner's pay. As the length of appointment for the acting commissioner has become clearer, the committee considered it appropriate to pay the acting commissioner in line with that of the former commissioner.

This report sets out the approach to achieve this, while being clear that consideration will be given to the pay structure for any future commissioner for standards.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Again, I have no other speakers, therefore the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I see no Member objecting, so the motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Debate on the Committee for Electoral Reform Report—'Senedd reform: The next steps'

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Item 8 is a debate on the Committee on Senedd Electoral Reform's report, 'Senedd reform: The next steps'. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. I'd like to start by thanking the Business Committee for scheduling this debate today, because within the context of the COVID pandemic, of course, it's been right that the majority of the Senedd business is focused on how we can support our people, our communities and our economy in these unprecedented times. Nevertheless, the constitutional issues addressed in our report are central to democracy in Wales, and our ability, as Members of the Senedd, to carry out our representative, legislative and scrutiny roles. I therefore welcome the chance to debate these issues with Members.

In July last year, we debated the question of how many Members this legislature should have and how they should be elected. The Senedd resolved, by a clear majority, that more Members were needed, but agreed that further work was required to consider how that could be achieved. The Committee on Senedd Electoral Reform was subsequently set up in September 2019. We were asked by the Senedd to examine the recommendations made by the expert panel on Assembly electoral reform.

During our work, we heard clear and compelling evidence that the Senedd is currently undersized, that its membership should be more diverse, that the current electoral system constrains voter choice and Member accountability and that it is inappropriate that there is no mechanism for reviewing the Senedd's boundaries. There is not time today for me to outline all of the recommendations, which include, for example, that there should be between 80 and 90 Members of the Senedd elected by the single transferrable vote, that arrangements should be put in place to review the Senedd's boundaries on an ongoing basis, that voluntary and legislative interventions should be put in place to overcome the structural inequalities and societal barriers that stand in the way of a more diverse Senedd, and that we need to do more to increase levels of public awareness and understanding of what the Senedd does and how its work makes a difference to the issues that matter to people.

Investing in our democracy has a cost attached to it and those costs would have to be carefully scrutinised as the Senedd considered any reform Bill. But on the basis of the estimates that the Llywydd has prepared for us and the evidence that we've received, we believe that the additional cost is not only a price worth paying, but it's a necessary investment in our democratic processes and institutions. On the basis of the evidence we've heard, we believe that a larger Senedd would be cost-effective. It would improve the governance of Wales, enhance the scrutiny and oversight of Welsh Government and lead to more effective policy, more efficient spending and better legislation.

Even marginal improvements in spending or value could offset the cost of a larger legislature. But we won't see these improvements, and the Senedd elected in 2026 will not have the appropriate number of Members to carry out its important responsibilities unless political parties are able to reach consensus on reform proposals and agree to take legislative action early in the sixth Senedd.

In 2017 the expert panel acknowledged that there was no perfect moment for constitutional or electoral changes, but posed the question: if not now, then when? It challenged the Senedd to be bold and to take this opportunity to reform the institution, to invigorate Welsh democracy and to enthuse and energise voters so that the 2021 election delivers a legislature with the capacity to represent the people and communities it serves and becomes a Welsh Parliament that truly works for the people of Wales.

The powers to reform our Senedd have been in our hands since 2018. The first steps in the reform process have already been taken, with the result that 16 and 17-year-olds will be able to vote for the first time in next year's election. However, we have further to go before we can say that we have fully empowered our Senedd to meet the needs of those it represents—the people of Wales. We believe that our report offers a road map to guide the sixth Senedd as it takes the next steps in that reform process. We are, however, realistic; we know that there is more to be done to engage the public on these issues, and we know that Members and parties across the Chamber have different views. And we know that these are politically sensitive matters on which it is difficult to reach consensus.

However, as legislators and elected Members, we all have a responsibility to work together to invest in and strengthen our democracy in Wales. The evidence is clear: unless legislation is brought forward early in the sixth Senedd, we risk failing to ensure that our legislature can continue to deliver effectively for the people of Wales. We risk missing the chance to make sure that the scrutiny of policy, legislation, spending and taxation is informed by the perspectives of people from a diverse range of backgrounds. And we risk losing the opportunity to empower and engage voters through the introduction of an electoral system that maximises voter choice, clarifies Member accountability and delivers fairer and more proportional outcomes.

In publishing our report, I urge all Members and political parties to reflect on the evidence and to fully consider our conclusions and recommendations. I believe that the sixth Senedd can work together to reach agreement on the next steps for Senedd reform and to make sure that our Senedd remains at the heart of a flourishing democracy in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

In accordance with Standing Order 12.23, the Llywydd has not selected amendment 1, tabled in the name of Gareth Bennett, nor amendment 2, tabled in the name of Neil Hamilton, though it is my intention to call both those Members to speak in the debate. Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. This is a comprehensive report, without doubt, and there is great and detailed work that's been done by Members and committee staff. It is disappointing, despite that, that we by now have missed the opportunity in this Senedd to act on the evidence of another very detailed piece of work that was done at the start of the fifth Senedd under the chairship of Laura McAllister, and adding to the evidence of the need to strengthen the Senedd and to create a democracy that is representative of all of the voices in Wales—that's what this report does, in truth, rather than moving us forward quickly.

I believe that the business case is obvious and clear for us all by now and that the time has come for action. As you know, Plaid Cymru wanted us to act at once during this Senedd, in response to the report by Laura McAllister, and we did give an opportunity, through a motion on the floor of the Senedd, in July last year to that end. And at that time, Labour did, for the first time, agree in principle that we did need to increase the number of Members, but they weren't prepared to commit to putting that in place at that time, and the current Government will have to answer as to why we had to spend another five years with this deficient system. I'll be listening carefully in order to hear whether the Government will support unambiguously the legislation that we will need in the next Senedd.

Since its establishment, the Welsh Parliament has been very progressive as a legislature where equality was written into the DNA from the outset, but, evidently, much more work needs to be done. And for that, the responsibility is placed on our modern Senedd's shoulders to lead the way once again, to ensure that the Senedd does represent Wales in all its diversity. If we're willing to adopt the name 'Senedd', then, as a modern and diverse nation, we have to be a Senedd for everyone in Wales and a Senedd for the whole of Wales. All of the responsibility can't fall on political parties alone. It's evident that we need an element of positive action to realise this ambition. There are small steps being taken, and there are some steps that are praiseworthy being recommended in the report: a system of collecting data on the diversity of the candidate list of each political party, and a fund to support people with disabilities, for example, to support the election of some of those groups that are underrepresented in public office. But we need to go further than that.

Job sharing—you've heard me discussing this previously. I don't think that we need another working party to look at this. The focus, right from the outset of the next Senedd, should be implementing this in legislation. The evidence already exists. And I would be very eager to see the inclusion of statutory quotas to ensure appropriate representation for women and people of colour in the new legislation.

We don't have to wait until the next Senedd to start acting on this. There is a window and an opportunity, even in the remaining legislative timetable of this Senedd, to take steps towards making the democracy of Wales more inclusive and more equal at a local government level. Delyth Jewell has introduced amendments to the legislation that's being discussed at present in terms of local government, and passing those amendments would mean introducing STV in every council without exception, as well as other measures to protect the maternity rights of councillors and to ensure that it's not possible to have a cabinet of men only. I greatly hope that those small steps will have the Government's support and that we can move even now during this Senedd at least part of the way towards being a genuinely inclusive and equal Senedd.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, Wales has many problems at the moment, but I don't think we'll find many people in the outside world who think that the answer to any of them is more politicians, more Members of this place. The reality is that there is absolutely no demand whatsoever amongst the people who have elected us to this place to increase the size of the Senedd, and we know this just by looking at the electoral statistics for the last 20 years. There isn't a single election in which we've managed to get turnout to elect Members of the Senedd to 50 per cent. Recent opinion polls have shown a growing disaffection with this place and a growing demand to get rid of it—22 per cent or so in the last opinion poll that I saw. The idea that, as was said a moment ago, increasing the size of the Senedd would invigorate democracy is actually quite laughable and is actually an indictment of what we are at the moment—[Inaudible.]

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

We appear to have some technical difficulties. Can the sound operator just see if we can re-establish contact with Neil Hamilton?

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I was muted—