Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 24 February 2021

246 contributions from 43 members. The official report.

Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. A Plenary meeting held by video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are noted on your agenda. I would remind Members of both Parliaments that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting.

1. Joint item with the Welsh Youth Parliament

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, today it is my pleasure to call the joint Senedd to order, for the second time in our history, as both meet together. I would like to extend a particularly warm welcome to the Members of the Youth Parliament joining us today for this very special session to mark the end of the first term of our Youth Parliament. This first two-year term has been innovative as you have gone about discussing and understanding the issues that are close to the hearts of the country's young people. You have represented the voice of your peers passionately, effectively and maturely, particularly during the pandemic that still affects us all.

At the end of your term, you have completed three reports and made a number of recommendations, which have been discussed and presented to the Chairs of our committees in the Senedd and to Welsh Ministers. We very much look forward today to hearing more about your work and your experiences as Members of the inaugural Welsh Youth Parliament. So, without further ado, I call on our first contributor, Sandy Ibrahim, partner elected Member for EYST Cymru, to begin the session. Sandy Ibrahim.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

If we can just wait for Sandy Ibrahim's microphone. Yes, there you go—it's all ready for you, Sandy.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you so much, Sandy. The next speaker will be Jonathon Dawes, Dyffryn Clwyd, Vale of Clwyd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Diolch, Jonathon. Sophie Billinghurst is next, and she is the partner Member of the Senedd Ieuenctid for Talking Hands. Sophie Billinghurst.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Diolch, Sophie. Angel Ezeadum is the next speaker. Angel is the Member for the partner organisation of Race Council Cymru. Angel Ezeadum.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Diolch, Angel. Ffion Griffith is the next speaker—Ffion Griffith of Islwyn.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Ffion. Ffion-Hâf Davies is next. Ffion-Hâf Davies, the Member for Gower.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Diolch, Ffion-Hâf. Harrison Gardner is the next speaker—Harrison Gardner from Clwyd West.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Harrison. Our next contributor is Gwion Rhisiart, representing Cardiff Central.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Gwion. And our final speaker from the Youth Parliament will be Maisy Evans from Torfaen.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you very much, Maisy, and thank you to all our contributors, and to those who have made such a huge contribution during this Youth Parliament term.

I now call on the First Minister to respond. First Minister.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I'd like thank all Members of the Youth Parliament for their contributions this afternoon, but also, as the Llywydd said, for everything that you have done in establishing the Youth Parliament in such a successful manner. I have benefited from meeting with a number of you on a regular basis over this exceptional year. Hearing the pinnacle of your work this afternoon has been our pleasure and an opportunity for us all to learn lessons. Your period in post is now drawing to a close, as is the Senedd itself. I'm sure that every Member of Government would wish to wish you well in the next steps in your lives, and those next steps will be even more successful as a result of the unique experiences that you have had as the founders of the Welsh Youth Parliament.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I'm not going to try to respond to all the different speakers we've heard, but Sandy was right in the very first contribution, that endings are inherently emotional moments, and I'm sure that will be true for all Members of the Youth Parliament. Sandy shared her story with us, and I think we were all glad to hear it. Wales is lucky to have you here, as we have been lucky with all the young people who've played their part in this very first Senedd.

Shall I just focus briefly on three things that I think I drew out of all the contributions we've heard? First, how overlapping the agendas have been between the things that you have been talking about in the Senedd Ieuenctid and the things that we talk about every week on the floor of the Senedd itself: mental health, climate change, education, the new curriculum, how we will forge a future that is better for us all. Secondly, the importance of plurality and diversity: the way in which hearing different experiences and different voices changes the nature of the conversation, enriches it, of course, but also means that we see things in new and different ways. I thought that came through very powerfully in a series of contributions. And finally, that in the work that you do and the work that we do, the work is never over. We never come to the end of the day and can draw a line under what we have been discussing and think, 'Well, that's that done, then.' The work always goes on, there are always challenges that we haven't thought of, there are always new chances to advance the causes that matter to us as individuals and as a nation. And in hearing of the work of the committees, I'm very glad that so much of what you have proposed has been accepted by the Government, and I'm not surprised at all to hear that there are things that you would want to go on advocating, making the case for, looking to secure further changes in the future.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

So, thank you very much to each and every one of you for everything that you have done and for the opportunity once again to meet with you and to hear from you all this afternoon.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Diolch. On behalf of the Conservatives, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Diolch, Llywydd. It is a great honour to say a few words on behalf of the official opposition, the Welsh Conservative group, following such articulate and thoughtful contributions from all of our elected Youth Parliament Members.

I feel a great affinity with our Youth Parliament Members, having been the youngest parliamentarian in the UK when I was elected to the Senedd, the then Welsh Assembly, back in 2003 at 24. For me, the establishment of the Welsh Youth Parliament is the standout achievement of this parliamentary term and will stand as one of the great successes in Wales since 1999.

Over the last two and a bit years, Members of the Youth Parliament have made an outstanding contribution to public life in Wales, but, more tangible than that, they have directly influenced law making in this Parliament. When we debated the new Curriculum for Wales in the Children, Young People and Education Committee, the most powerful contributions were those from young people themselves, from you, from the likes of Jonathon, who I can see on my screen now. Your scrutiny and campaigning on the role of life skills in the curriculum has been particularly compelling, and my group completely agree that key skills, such as first aid and British sign language, should be included in the curriculum.

On the issue of plastic waste, as outlined by Ffion-Hâf, you have spoken up for so many young people who are crying out for change, and have come up with some excellent suggestions. We've been motivated by distress at what humans are gradually doing to this planet. And Sir David Attenborough only said yesterday that in some ways we are already too late to prevent some of the drastic effects of climate change, so we really do need to act now, and you've made that abundantly clear.

As outlined by Ffion, you've made meaningful interventions and raised important questions on the issue of young people's mental health too, which has been a taboo subject for far too long. This is a massive area of concern for all of us right now, as you'll see from our contributions in the Senedd across the parties, as we worry about the impact that prolonged lockdowns, school closures and just the inability to socialise with friends is having on young people.

Throughout this pandemic, children and young people have sacrificed so much, largely to keep older and more vulnerable people safe. In the coming months and years, as we emerge from this pandemic, we all have a duty to repay that debt and do far more to support young people and better meet their needs. We as MSs have a responsibility to take action on the issues that matter to you, our youngest generation.

In conclusion, Llywydd, I'd like to wish all 60 Members of the Welsh Young Parliament well in whatever direction their future careers take them, and thank them so much for all that they've done. They are outstanding representatives of their generation. You should all be so proud of your achievements in just two short years. We all as MSs across the board are certainly proud of each and every one of you. You all clearly have bright futures ahead of you, and you've all given us hope, and we look forward to the contributions of future Youth Parliaments. Thank you. Diolch.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Leader of Plaid Cymru next—Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

'The youth parliament will give Wales' young people a democratic voice at a national level and empower them to bring about change.'

That's how you, Llywydd, described the vision underpinning the Welsh Young Parliament at its launch. And without doubt, the Youth Parliament has delivered on that and much more, and I'm very pleased to provide my party's support to the work that's been done to date, and to provide my full support to the Youth Parliament in its further development in our next Senedd term.

In looking forward to the next Senedd, we will be facing the future. And the debate today on the basis of those topics that you covered invites us to look to the future beyond COVID, and to focus on the major challenges facing our nation and our world and the numerous crisis of our age: the climate and biodiversity crisis, as we've heard; transforming the education system in order to secure social transformation and to deliver the potential of everyone; and changing attitudes towards and strengthening mental health provision. On the basis of your success as young people over the past few years, I am confident that we will all succeed in building a better Wales. It's pressure from you as young people that's made the difference in ensuring that mental health and well-being will be enshrined in law in all aspects of the new curriculum.

Young people have led change across the world, and in the politics of Wales too over the past few years, and the climate crisis and the climate strikes are an example of this. There have been a number of protests and marches across Wales, including one that finished on the steps of the Senedd itself. Change is possible if we insist upon it: that is the hopeful core message of democracy. And it's very often young people who lead that change. You demonstrated that again in August of last year, forcing the Welsh Government to recognise the unprecedented circumstances in terms of the impact of COVID on your education. And in terms of independence, which would be the most radical change, it's the young people of Wales who are in the vanguard on the issue. And I very much hope that many of you one day will represent your generation once again in the independent Senedd of the future—and it will be your future. And given the spirit of unity and creativity and positivity that you've demonstrated, there is room for each and every one of us to believe that that future will be very bright indeed for us all.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

It's truly inspiring to welcome representatives of the Youth Parliament for this Plenary session. I'm sure that some of you will aspire to become our future politicians. So, perhaps I can offer a few words of caution if you should do so. First, in whatever endeavours you find yourself involved, try at all times to keep an open mind. Whatever political philosophy you adopt, always be ready to explore other political views and ideas. Above all, I encourage you to do your research. Do not just take the statements of main media or even social media—delve deeper and attempt to approach every idea and proposition as effectively as possible.

I have to congratulate all of you on the work that you've done. You've made a very great difference to the way the Senedd has operated during the two years that you've been in existence, and you've made absolutely sure that we shall never ever be able to ignore the voice of the youth of Wales again. By creating this institution, I believe the Welsh Parliament has opened up an opportunity for the youth of this country to truly participate in matters that affect you, but don't be disappointed if some of your suggestions and ideas are rejected or not implemented. Sometimes, what we want cannot always be delivered. However, I feel you can rest assured the Senedd will respect and take on board all the views and suggestions you've put forward. After all, that is why it initiated the Youth Parliament in the first place. I thank you all for your participation in the Welsh Parliament, and I wish you well in whatever careers you choose to follow. Thank you, Llywydd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Lynne Neagle, the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Llywydd. One of the highlights of my time as Chair of the Senedd's Children, Young People and Education Committee has been the opportunity to watch the Youth Parliament develop. To work with its Members on the scrutiny we undertake as a committee and as a Senedd has been a genuine privilege, and I'm in no doubt that the establishment of the Youth Parliament has enriched the debate on important topics during the fifth Senedd.

Today, we've heard directly from the youth parliamentarians about everything they've achieved since their election. Describing it as impressive is an understatement. As we've heard, the Welsh Youth Parliament has sought to influence key areas of policy, including curriculum reform, emotional and mental health, and littering and plastic waste. These are not small or easy issues. My committee has grappled with two of these topics, so I can certainly say that from experience. We have been enormously grateful for the input and insight shared by the Youth Parliament's inquiries and reports in these areas.

Similarly remarkable, though, has been its ability to provide reactive and timely contributions to developing issues. The Youth Parliament provided important views to our scrutiny of the reasonable punishment Bill, for example, and we know that you've been an important voice in the ongoing discussions about how we manage and recover from the pandemic.

As a committee, we have repeatedly emphasised the importance of hearing directly from children and young people about their experiences. Ensuring that a children's rights approach is adopted for all aspects of policy, legislation and funding has been a key priority for us. As Maisy Evans said, the Welsh Youth Parliament is children's rights in action. The impact of COVID-19 has emphasised more strongly than ever the need to ensure that our children and young people have a voice and that that voice reaches all areas of public life and decision making.

I'd like to draw my remarks to a close with three final points. Firstly, I'd like to take this opportunity to say an enormous thank you to our 60 Welsh youth parliamentarians. You have set an example that will be hard to follow, but one I'm confident will inspire others to engage and participate in future. Secondly, I'd like to encourage any children and young people who are listening to consider putting themselves forward as the next generation of Welsh Youth Parliament Members. As you've heard today, you can really make a difference. Finally, I'd like to place on record my thanks to the team of staff both within the Senedd and within partner organisations who've worked so hard to establish and support the work of these remarkable young people. This last year has tested everyone in all ways, but the resilience shown by our children and young people in Wales, including the Members of our first Welsh Youth Parliament, is a source of inspiration and pride to all of us. Diolch o galon ichi i gyd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Diolch, Lynne. And just like you, Lynne, the Youth Parliament has been one of my highlights in my term as Llywydd. We spend a lot of time in our Senedd at the moment discussing jabs in arms; the Youth Parliament has been a jab of hope in my arm over the past two years. I've loved the diversity of your backgrounds and the diversity of your political views, but all coming together to try and find common cause for the good of your communities, your peers, and for your nation. I've no doubt that this will not be the last Senedd meeting for some of you—some of you will be back at some point. But, in the meantime,

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

thanks for all you've contributed.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you for everything you've achieved in these last two years and your legacy will live on into the next Youth Parliament, and beyond.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, thank you very much.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I bring this part of the meeting to a close, and we'll suspend proceedings for a few minutes, before we recommence formally as just the one Senedd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, all.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services. And the first question is from Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

1. How is the Welsh Government supporting paramedics and the Welsh Ambulance Service? OQ56334

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The Welsh Government has provided a range of initiatives to support paramedics and the ambulance service, including £1.6 million investment to expand the Emergency Medical Retrieval and Transfer Service, and £10.9 million for new operational vehicles, which of course are green and will reduce the carbon footprint of the organisation.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. This last year has been an incredibly hard time for everyone at the Welsh ambulance service, from the paramedics who've been on the front line to the dedicated staff in the control rooms and those staff who support the service. Sadly, we saw earlier this month that the Welsh ambulance service lost a fourth member of staff to coronavirus: Kevin Hughes, aged 41 from Anglesey. Many members of staff are physically and mentally fatigued due to the increased pressure on an already busy service. Support and protection is needed, such as the supply of PPE, investment in vehicles and equipment, as well as investment in the workforce.

Can the Minister outline what more can be done to support our ambulance service workforce, both over the coming months, and as we come out of the pandemic?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, thank you. I've outlined the increased investment in new vehicles in my initial response. We continue to look at the fleet to make sure it's appropriate, both for the emergency side of the service, but also the urgent care and patient transport side of the service as well.

When it comes to well-being, we've worked with social partners, so that's our NHS Wales employers and trade unions, to have a multilayered well-being offer for health and social care workers in Wales, including in particular paramedics as well. So, there's a confidential Samaritans listening support line, funded by the Welsh Government, dedicated for health and care workers in Wales. We have a number of free-to-access health and well-being support apps, like Mind, Sleepio and SilverCloud. We have a range of different resources and, on the Health Education and Improvement Wales website, there's a useful list of what all of those resources are. And it's a matter I regularly discuss with the trade unions in my regular update with them, as well as the partnership arrangements in place.

On PPE, we continue to have a successful delivery of PPE for our front-line workers. The vast majority of PPE issued—there have been over 647 million items issued in the last year to health and social care—the vast majority were directly sourced by the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership, with all contracts awarded subject to robust governance. That includes protection from fraudulent or substandard PPE. So, in Wales, on PPE procurement, there have been no party favours, no VIP lane, no chumocracy. Everyone in Wales should take real pride, I believe, in the way we have continued to provide high-quality PPE for our front-line health and social care staff.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

I'm sure the Minister will join me in thanking all the ambulance service for all they're doing in such harrowing and difficult circumstances. Minister, last month, it was reported that concerns had been raised that some front-line ambulance staff were refusing to be vaccinated against coronavirus. This obviously poses obvious risks. The director of workforce and organisational development at the Welsh ambulance service confirmed that some staff had refused the vaccine, but that numbers were not being recorded. Can you, Minister, advise why this important information is not available, and can you advise what action is being taken to address the concerns of the ambulance staff who are reluctant to receive the vaccine? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I don't have an individual figure to hand today on the number of front-line staff who have not taken up the offer of the vaccine. We do know we've got incredibly high levels of take-up from our front-line staff, including within the ambulance service. We also know that, unfortunately, there is a sewer of anti-vax information that, in particular, concerns people of working age, with some particularly outrageous claims made about both male and female fertility. So, we do understand there are people with real concerns about that misinformation.

There will also be a limited group of people who will have medical reasons why the vaccine isn't appropriate for them. That's a very small number of people, but I expect the matter to be not just resolved by the employer and trade unions working together, but by the positive encouragement for people to take up the vaccine. And I should say that I join with not just yourself, but also Jayne Bryant, in her recognition of what paramedics have done and all across the ambulance service. It's a much more wide-ranging organisation than the emergency end of the system, and the way in which they've had support from the military in undertaking their task, in making sure vehicles are ready, it's been a real team Wales effort, and I think everyone, as I say, should take real pride in what they continue to do in these, the most challenging of circumstances.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2 to be asked by Mike Hedges and to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the support available to people living alone during the COVID-19 pandemic to avoid the risk of loneliness and isolation? OQ56300

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

We have taken a number of actions to support people to stay connected with family and friends, including additional funding for the third sector and local government, and for mental health and emotional support services. Our regulations also allow people to form an extended household if they live alone.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Minister for her response? And I know that she shares my concern regarding loneliness and isolation. No-one should go a day without speaking to someone, but, unfortunately, many do. Does the Minister agree we need to ensure either whole contact or virtual meetings for those living alone, who don't have any family who they can form a bubble with, to ensure that they have priority in being dealt with, especially when they're self-isolating and they have to keep away from people anyway? The COVID crisis will eventually end, but unless action is taken loneliness and isolation will not. Does the Minister agree with me that we need to take action to ensure that people have daily contact with somebody?

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you very much, Mike, for that question. And can I thank you for consistently raising in this Chamber issues related to loneliness and also issues related to older people? Because I know you chair the cross-party group on older people, which I attended recently, so thank you very much for that.

Yes, I believe it's absolutely crucial that we do all we possibly can to make contact with people who are lonely. I think that we know that in this pandemic those people who were lonely to begin with are now much more lonely, and particular groups are likely to be lonely, including older people, but, of course, younger people as well, and other groups, such as disabled people suffer from loneliness specifically.

I have responded, in similar questions, to make reference to the Friend in Need initiative, which was organised by Age Cymru, which guarantees a telephone call every week to an older people who is lonely, which I think is the sort of initiative that Mike Hedges would support, because it is giving that contact. So, we actually give £400,000 to Age Cymru to deliver that. And I've actually taken part in one of the sessions, and I can see how much it means to a lonely person to be able to talk over the week to a volunteer, who is often an older person themselves, but who has been trained to specifically take part in this project. So, yes, that reaches a small number of people, but it's initiatives like that, and the other initiatives that I referred to in my first answer, that I think are crucial that we continue to carry out in this pandemic.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for your answers, Minister. There's very little I can add actually to the excellent points that have just been made by Mike Hedges in his question, other than to reiterate some of those issues. As you said, the health risks of loneliness and isolation were there prior to the pandemic. So, in many ways, those issues have been exacerbated by the pandemic, and it's not just for older people, it seems to be across a wider section of society. So, as we emerge from this difficult time, and we are seeing this reality for people who haven't previously experienced it, what strategy are you developing to help people suffering from mental health issues, which we know are on the increase, and also, specifically, to tackle this loneliness aspect of those issues?

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you very much, Nick, for that question. I absolutely agree that it is widespread. I think we tend to think of it as older people who are suffering from loneliness, but it's specifically younger people, and, as I said earlier, disabled people, people from the black and minority and ethnic community and people suffering from mental health problems. This has all been an additional difficult time for them. So, we've certainly recognised this by the funding that we have put in, with additional funding for mental health support—an additional £42 million for mental health in our draft budget to support this—because we certainly see the effects of this pandemic as carrying on beyond the period of the pandemic, and there will be some scars on people that we'll have to continue to work with. So, as I say, we're putting extra money in for the mental health support, and we'll be doing all we can to continue some of this support for people who have experienced loneliness, and some of them in a way that they haven't experienced it before.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, you will be aware that a group of organisations wrote to the UK Prime Minister on measures to protect health and care workers from the virus. They say that steps to reduce airborne transmission have been insufficient and they are calling for an improvement in ventilation and for changes in PPE guidance in order to protect the workforce. Will you work proactively in responding to those demands and recognise that our understanding of airborne transmission has changed considerably over the past 12 months and that public health messaging, as well as that protection guidance, should be amended to reflect that, including putting more emphasis on the importance of fresh air?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I'm happy to say that in regular Welsh Government messaging, we highlight the importance of good ventilation, and that's in not just press conferences and other events that I do, but from others—from the chief medical officer, the deputy chief medical officer and indeed the First Minister, who has highlighted this as well. I know that that's practically been taken on board. For example, we have made sure that my son has an extra layer of clothing because windows in his classroom were open when he returned to school. So, the message is being taken up on ventilation in a much more significant and sustained manner than, to be fair, it would have been at the start of the pandemic.

When it comes to the review of the adequacy of personal protective equipment, that's a matter where we do regularly undertake reviews. The lead for that is the deputy chief medical officer, Professor Chris Jones. He regularly engages with other colleagues across the UK to make sure that our guidance is up to date. I understand the concerns that some people have about whether the current version of the PPE is the right version of PPE, given that we have a more transmissible variant of the virus—the Kent variant—in place as the dominant variant in Wales, but the latest review shows that our current standards are appropriate, and, as ever, they're always under review.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you. I want to turn now to the long-term impact of COVID-19. It's wonderful that the vaccination process is developing well, but many people will wait a long time before getting a vaccination, including young people, and they are also open to acute and serious risk, as we have seen in the most painful manner on Anglesey over the past few days in light of the deaths of two young men, Kevin Hughes and Huw Gethin Jones. I know that I speak on behalf of the whole of the Senedd as we send our condolences to their families today. But for those who will be fortunate enough not to develop serious illness, we are coming to understand more and more of the dangers of long COVID.

I met this week with the organisation Long Covid Wales and discussed the need for far more investment in long COVID care, which is different to post-COVID rehab. We need healthcare for the sufferers of long COVID. I note, today, that an additional £750,000 has been allocated in Scotland for long COVID care. Can we have a commitment of enhanced resources to provide this care and, crucially, to ensure that it's available in all parts of Wales? Because at the moment, you are far more likely to get care if you are living in the south-east of Wales.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

This is a matter that I do take seriously. I'll be writing imminently to the health committee in response to the Chair's letter on behalf of the committee on long COVID with a series of questions within that. We'll set out what we are doing and the work we are undertaking on the long COVID pathway we've agreed as well. I think it's really important to understand that, when we talk about long COVID, we're talking about a variety of impacts, because this is not a commonly experienced condition, in the sense that the symptoms may vary. You may have people who have never been to a hospital, but have never fully recovered and have recurrent symptoms that have an impact on their day-to-day activities. You may also have people suffering from a much more significant impact and there may be people with different organ damage, with longer term consequences as well. We're looking to have an approach that takes account of the different impacts on different people and we recognise that this will require a multidisciplinary approach.

It's part of the reason why we've worked with colleagues in primary care, as well as secondary care, in understanding how to put together a pathway and to make sure that primary care colleagues are equipped to refer people to the appropriate part of that pathway as well. That will be really important for the future, because the honest truth is that today we don't have enough understanding to set up a definitive treatment pathway that will do for everything and anything in the future. We will continue to learn, which is why we continue to invest in research around long COVID. It's why, whatever happens on the first Thursday in May, the next Government will continue to need to reassess the state of our knowledge and our understanding and will, again, need to return to the current pathway we have in place to make sure it's still appropriate and to understand as further advances in care and treatment are provided. So, this is a moving picture but one that we're committed to return to, because I recognise this is going to be one of the longer term impacts of COVID. It's a success story that so many people have recovered, but the nature of that recovery will be varying and there will be recurrent episodes for a number of people.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

There is still a lack of understanding on how hard long COVID can hit people. Even if they don't have to go to hospital, it can take many weeks for some people to recover from COVID and the symptoms of COVID. I've heard of one individual who was threatened with disciplinary action from her employer unless she returned to work within a fortnight. She, as it happens, has recovered now but it took her a month to recover from COVID. Now, most employers are being responsible, but with all sorts of stories to be heard about workers being requested to use annual leave to self-isolate or to ignore a request to self-isolate entirely, will you be entirely firm on this issue and press for prosecution if necessary—which could be as serious as corporate manslaughter in the most serious of cases—if there is clear evidence that employers or others are acting in a way that contributes towards the spread of this virus?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There are two distinct points there. The first is that Ministers don't make prosecution decisions. There's a clear separation of powers. It's probably a good thing for everyone that, as the health Minister, I'm not in a position to direct the criminal justice services to undertake prosecutions or not. However, when it comes to the law and our expectations, we do work alongside the Health and Safety Executive. It's a reserved body, but they're very clear about what requirements of the law are in place here in Wales and what that means in terms of businesses that are not compliant in following those rules, whether it's retail or other activities as well. The guidance we issue has a real bearing on making sure that workplaces are safe workplaces with an infectious condition that is in widespread circulation still around the country. I think that's the point the Member is really driving, about making sure there's a clear message from the Government about expected standards of behaviour from employers and not to hesitate in supporting action that is taken, whether it's by environmental health organisations, trading standards or, indeed, non-devolved areas, to ensure that workers are kept safe.

We have these conversations on a regular basis, not just in the social partnership but also in the national health and safety forum that's been created as well. We are, I think, being very clear about our expectations for employers about how they need to keep their businesses safe and secure to keep their workers and their customers safe and secure. We'll need to return to this again, as our evidence, knowledge and understanding of COVID changes in the future. I hope that, as we do recover and get out of the pandemic crisis, we'll make sure there isn't a dropping of the guard when it comes to this. Because I also wouldn't want to see employers taking precipitative action against people who, in my former life, I would potentially have been taking discrimination action for if these are people with a material impact on their day-to-day activities with a recurring condition. That seems to me to describe a great deal of what long COVID actually means for people who have the condition and the likelihood of a future occurrence. I hope that all employers are taking a much more considerate approach, because these are matters where our understanding will continue to develop and we want people to return to work and contribute to the future of our economy.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Conservative spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Good afternoon, Minister. When are you hoping to bring forward a national plan for dealing with the waiting list problem that we have here in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I expect to be in a position to publish an NHS recovery plan before the end of March. I have indicated this previously. We'll need to look at recovery in general terms, so not just planned care and elective services but more broadly as well. We need to describe the approach we're taking and what that will mean to give everyone some context about the scale of the task as it is and then to set out how we're already working to plan and then to be able to deliver it. The challenge will still be that, by the end of March, we're unlikely to have a definitive set of delivery plans because we still don't anticipate reopening all of our services within the national health service by that point, and that will affect the scale of the problem that any future Government will have to confront and resolve. But we do expect to provide a much clearer guide about what recovery will look like.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

You talk about recovery in a general way, and I appreciate that. I understand that you have to look at the NHS as a whole, but I am particularly concerned about the waiting-for-treatment times. We now have over 538,000 people—that's one in five of our population—waiting for some form of treatment. Granted, they're not all humongously urgent—although to the person involved, it may well be—but there are an awful lot of people, ranging from people waiting for diagnostic treatment to women waiting for gynaecological treatment, people needing treatment for their eyes so they don't lose their eyesight; these are all people whose quality of life and whose eventual outcomes could well be severely impacted by waiting for treatment. I understand the position we're in—we've been through hell on earth this last year and a half—but I am desperately seeking from the Welsh Government a real assurance that there's going to be a targeted plan specifically aimed at this.

The reason I ask you, Minister, is because I hear health boards telling me that they are going to take up to a decade to recover and get back to the places they were before the pandemic happened. I am aware that many health boards use other health boards to provide certain services. Unless there's a united national plan in place, it could be very difficult to get all the services to start coming up to the boil at the same time. For example, in Hywel Dda, there is no treatment for keratoconus; you have to go to the Princess of Wales in Bridgend. If that board does not decide to liven up that process in time, then people in Hywel Dda will continue to wait. Can you give us an assurance that you're going to specifically look at this, and can you give us some idea of how you're going to be able to address that problem? As I say, I totally understand it's a significant challenge, but we also need to be aware of funding and resources. Are you able to give us any indication?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

When we do publish the NHS recovery plan, we will within it address the fact that there will be a resource requirement for this not just in a year, but over the course of the whole term. I've indicated previously that I think the recovery will take least a full Senedd term. That's the scale of the problem we have. It's probably not much comfort to people here in Wales, but you'll find a huge scale of challenge in every part of UK, because of the last year that we've all lived through. I recognise the point the Member makes about not just the increase in the volume and the backlog that's been built up, but the fact that that may mean that there is harm that is caused that may not be reversible. That is part of the difficulty in having to make choices through this pandemic and about weighing up and balancing the impact on different people.

I should say, though, that it isn't the case that one in five people in Wales are on a waiting list. A number of the people who are waiting will have appointments on different lists, and it's part of the challenge in having an accurate discussion about the scale. The numbers the Member quotes are the numbers of outstanding appointments in a variety of areas, as she's indicated, from out-patients to more urgent activity as well. That reinforces for me the importance of continuing to get on top of coronavirus and not letting the virus get out of control again, because it would just mean a further interruption and even more harm and an even bigger backlog. But yes, you can expect a plan that covers a range of different areas, including a balance between local, regional and national choices. I may not be the Minister who has to make those national choices, but whoever does return as the health Minister after the election in May will need to be prepared to make national choices to build upon the plan that will be published by the end of March, because this, as I say, is going to be a significant undertaking for the whole country.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

To go back to those statistics, they did come from Government information, but I am happy to go back and review that, because it was quite clear it was one in five. One of the areas that's leapt astronomically in the last year is the area of gynaecological services. We had less than 1,000 women waiting for over 36 weeks; now we've got over 13,000 women waiting for some kind of treatment. That, of course, spins back to health inequalities, doesn't it? All of the parties will have received a letter in the last week from the Royal College of Physicians on behalf of 30-odd organisations talking about health inequalities. Will the Government be able to make any commitment that in this recovery plan is not just going to be a broad-brush approach, but that you will look at key health inequalities to ensure that groups such as women, who traditionally have suffered unequal health in a wide group of areas, are brought into the mix at the same time? Of course, it's not just women; there are a lot of ethnic minority groups that have particular health inequalities. Will you be listening very closely to the representations being made by the likes of the Royal College of Physicians to try to ensure that we don't allow this pandemic to broaden those health inequalities that we already have here in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

If I deal with the point about the figures first, and then deal with your point about health inequalities, on the figures, the figures are accurate in terms of the number of appointments that are outstanding, but there isn't one fifth of people who have an outstanding appointment because some of those will be individuals on more than one list, and that's the point that I'm making. In terms of the number of people that are really waiting, it isn't actually one in five of the population. The figure you quote is an accurate figure for the number of individual appointments. I myself know that I could potentially be on two waiting lists, for the sake of argument, if I were a new patient with the two individual issues where the NHS regularly cares for me. So, that's the point that I'm making in having an accurate conversation about the scale of the challenge we face.

On your point about healthcare inequalities, we recognise the pandemic has exacerbated healthcare inequalities and made them even more stark than they were before. The level of harm, the different harm that has been meted out by coronavirus—. It is not a great leveller. It is the reality that harm is done in those communities, those families, those individuals who started this pandemic with the greatest number of health inequalities at the outset.

We have to make sure that the recovery does properly take account of that in how we prioritise people in the greatest clinical need, how we get to those people first, and how we make sure that our recovery doesn't exacerbate, yet again, the healthcare inequalities that there are. That means that it can't be about the sharpest elbows finding their way through a system. It's actually about how we deliberately design a recovery that does take account of all of those healthcare inequalities, and that will be difficult because of the scale of the challenge that we have. But I actually think that our prudent healthcare and value-based healthcare approach will help us to do that, to drive that into our system. This is all entirely consistent with the 'A Healthier Wales' approach that we have, where, of course, you'll recall from the outset of this term, from the parliamentary review to having 'A Healthier Wales', healthcare inequalities were very much at the heart of that plan, and they'll need to be at the heart of our recovery approach, too.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on waiting times for orthopaedic treatment in north Wales? OQ56314

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. The Welsh Government continues to work alongside Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to develop their orthopaedic plans and to support them to adapt their delivery to meet the changing needs brought about by COVID-19, including the significant increase in waits for orthopaedic treatment.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. This follows on, really, from my colleague Angela Burns and the concerns around what's happening with regard to treatment. So, I've been liaising with the chief executive of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Earlier this month, she sent me a letter that stated, and I quote,

'with the small volume of elective surgery that we've been able to perform over the past 12 months, waiting times have increased considerably'.

I was writing to her about a constituent who'd been waiting a long time in immense pain. She said one consultant, Mr Ganapathi, now has more than 450 patients waiting for treatment, and, according to the chief exec, over 350 of these have waited longer than my constituent who—just listen to this—was referred for double knee replacement in November 2017, long before our pandemic, Minister. So, whilst acknowledging the pressure caused by COVID-19 and welcoming the news that a new post-anaesthesia care unit has opened at Ysbyty Gwynedd, the evidence is clear that orthopaedic treatment is in crisis here in north Wales. So, please advise what steps you are taking to help facilitate more day-case and in-patient surgery, and whether consideration can be given to increasing the health board's partnership with English trusts, and coming to an arrangement with more than just two, for patients to be offered their surgery outside of this health board. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think there are several things there. The first is to acknowledge that there was already a challenge with orthopaedic delivery in north Wales before the pandemic. We were seeing an increase in activity in north Wales, but it wasn't keeping pace with demand coming in, so lists were broadly getting longer on orthopaedic treatment. That is undeniable.

The second point is that, during the pandemic, though, that has been exacerbated even further. As Members will be aware, there's been significant interruption of normal care and treatment, so the orthopaedic waiting list has grown even further over the course of the pandemic, not just in north Wales, but across the whole country. Our challenge is how we get to a sustainable system and how we deal with the big backlog that has built up as well. With respect, I don't think that partnerships with NHS trusts in England are likely to address the backlog or a sustainable service. The reason for that is that, actually, the system within England needs to get to a point where it is more in balance as well. We won't be able to buy our way through this by undertaking more activity in the private sector alone. We are going to need to have a proper approach that I think is consistent with NHS values here in Wales.

It's worth reflecting that England also have a significant increase in their orthopaedic waiting lists; there isn't going to be capacity in the NHS in England for us to make use of for some time to come. So, that means we need to find an approach here in Wales that understands the nature of our challenge, how we get to a sustainable part of our system and, at the same time, how, as to staff who are going to be exhausted when the pandemic crisis finally ends, we actually generate even more activity to deal with the backlog. This is not a straightforward challenge to address, and we'll need to move beyond a simplistic 'just work harder' or 'spend more money'. We're going to need to have some innovation in the way that our NHS continues to run a public service that delivers against the enormous challenges that confront it.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

As said by the previous two speakers, Minister, waiting lists are at levels that we haven't seen for years. Many on those waiting lists before too long will end up being emergency admissions after their quality of life has been obliterated by pain and disability. Constituents report a very patchy and hit-and-miss non-COVID health service across the region, which suggests that we are facing a very different sort of crisis for the NHS, but a crisis nonetheless. You've said there's a plan, that you have a plan. When will we see this plan to scrutinise it, and when will it possibly start to be implemented? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

As I said, we're expecting to publish an NHS recovery plan before the end of March. I'd want Members to be able to see that plan before we move into the election period. I think that's the right thing to do. But more than that, in terms of then seeing that activity recovering, that really depends on the course of the pandemic. When we've still got critical care units that are at 115 per cent of their capacity, when we still have significant numbers of COVID patients in our hospitals, it isn't reasonable to expect the NHS to regenerate the same level of normal elective activity that we were used to more than a year ago.

We also, of course, have the additional PPE requirements that Jayne Bryant was referring to—PPE delivery—in her first question. That means that we can't undertake as much activity in the same day. So, we have a number of real handicaps for the NHS about keeping our staff and people safe whilst undertaking activity. So, this will be difficult. The plan, as I say—the recovery plan—you can expect it to be published before the end of March. Of course, the pandemic will help to determine when we can start to deliver some of this, as well as the work that our NHS organisations are already undertaking for planning and delivering that further activity.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on how the vaccination programme is progressing in Alyn and Deeside? OQ56298

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you. We met our first milestone to offer vaccination to those in JCVI priority groups 1 to 4 by mid February. We are in the fortunate position of being the first UK country to do so. We are making good progress towards the next milestone, which is, subject to supply, to offer vaccination to groups 5 to 9 by the middle of April. Within Alyn and Deeside, I'm pleased to say that all GP practices are helping to deliver our successful vaccination programme.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for that answer, Minister, and the important information within it. I'm sure you'll agree with me that Members of the Senedd have a responsibility to act as leaders in their community, and since the start of the vaccination programme I have sought, through my 'let's vaccinate Flintshire' campaign, to work with the health board and to work with the Welsh Government to assist and support the roll-out where I can. Now, other Members of this Chamber had a lot to say in the first few days, almost demanding to know why the population hadn't been vaccinated immediately. Now, for some time, under the brilliant leadership of our First Minister, Mark Drakeford, Wales has led the way in the United Kingdom and across Europe, and these critics in the early days have gone silent. Minister, do you agree with me that we all have a role to play in publicly congratulating and encouraging everyone involved in the vaccination programme?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, I do. I think it's really important that everyone, regardless of their politics, recognises the fantastic success that Wales's vaccination programme represents. The hard work, the dedication, the skill and the expertise of our staff, partners in the military, local government and the voluntary sector have demonstrated that the first few weeks, when we did have a slower rate of delivery than other UK nations, were well used to plan for our ability to go at a much quicker rate. That's why we are at the top of the four-nations table at this point in time for the overall percentage of the population who have had their vaccine and for the numbers of adults who have had their vaccine as well, and I look forward to a further successful roll-out in groups 5 to 9, and then for the rest of the adult population. I hope that those people who were critical will now give their full support and recognise the credit for this Government and our fantastic national health service for the amazing success that the vaccination programme represents for Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

The national vaccination strategy to 14 February included care home staff, but Care Forum Wales stated last week that the decision by Flintshire County Council to base care home fees on paying half the staff the minimum wage is an affront to care workers who put their own lives on the line and have heroically done their utmost to protect their residents from the deadly coronavirus pandemic. Responding, Flintshire council told me, 'This is not a local issue and we work to regional funding formulas in the allocation of funding, and we mutually agreed the annual uplifts with commissioning providers.' Responding to this, however, Care Forum Wales told me, 'I don't believe you'll find a single independent care home provider who would agree that Flintshire's 2021-22 fees uplift has been mutually agreed with providers.' How do you therefore respond to their question why, when every shred of evidence shows that the dependency of residents in care homes during the last 20 years, and particularly the last year, has increased significantly, north Wales fees have gone from the top of the league and now occupy the relegation zone?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I'm robustly confident that follow-up question has nothing to do with the success of the vaccination programme in Alyn and Deeside, but, as you'll know, this Government is committed to a longer term future to revise not just the way the social care sector is organised but how we fund it, how we reward our staff. I look forward to all parties putting forward their alternative ways to properly fund social care in the future within the next manifestos we will all put before the people of Wales. I look forward to returning to this Chamber before the end of the term to give an update on the work of the inter-ministerial group on paying for care, and I look forward to Conservative Members finding new ways to put extra resources into our social care system as opposed to demanding extra resource without ever identifying where that money should come from.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

5. Will the Minister make a statement regarding the deployment of health visitors in Wales? OQ56331

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. The Welsh Government provided guidance on the delivery of the Healthy Child Wales programme by health visitors during the pandemic, to ensure that children are safe and seen and that families are supported as far as possible. We are aware that health visitors may have redeployed to other acute areas, if workforce numbers allowed, at the height of the pandemic. My understanding is that this is not currently the case.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response. I have raised this question on a few occasions because I conducted a survey of new mothers during the pandemic, where they raised numerous concerns about their access to health visitors during this important time. But I understand, yesterday, after having met with the Minister for mental health—and thank you again for that meeting—as you said, Minister, that some actually were deployed during the first stages of the pandemic but now have returned to their role. We were also told, though, that due to some of the profiles of those members of staff, many have been shielding or many have been off on sick leave. So, I am curious to understand how you are going to protect the service for the future and give them the relevant level of support that this vital service needs. It's a lifeline to many new parents—mothers who are seeking that initial advice and that support at the beginning of a baby's life.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think there are several points to make there. The first is that, in terms of the longer term future, that is partly about our investment in the future of the workforce, and the Member will know that we have sought to significantly increase the number of health visitors in training and then to maintain them in the service as well. This will be a challenge for the whole service, looking forward, because we do anticipate that some members of staff may want to change NHS careers. We'll need to keep people in the service. That's why, again, Jayne Bryant's first questions about well-being and support services for paramedics are just as relevant for health visitors and everyone else right across health and social care.

The second point that I think is important to make is that it's not just from a Government policy point of view about recognising the importance of health visitors—so, our investment in the future Flying Start relies on having high-quality health visitors in good numbers, who are motivated and I've been very proud of the work they're doing—but also from a personal point of view. I remember very well the impact that the health visitor had when we had our child as well; it does make a real difference. So, having those people redeployed back to their roles all across the country is hugely important, and then to think again about how we take care of our current workforce, because the future of the NHS is already here in large number—the workers in 10 years are almost all already with us in terms of overall numbers—but also making sure that we continue to train and have a new generation of health visitors coming in in the right numbers, and in a way where their roles will change in the support they are well placed to provide because of the trusted relationship that most health visitors build up with the women and the families that they work with. So, there are challenges ahead, but I think that not just this Government but any future Government will remain committed to the future of our health visiting service in the right numbers, with the right skills.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

6. What plans does the Minister have to roll out asymptomatic workplace testing in Wales? OQ56326

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you. In our revised testing strategy, we have set out our plans to support asymptomatic testing in workplaces in order to safeguard the vulnerable, and to maintain key services. I have confirmed today the wider roll-out of asymptomatic workplace testing for employers of more than 50 people.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Minister. The aerospace sector is worth more than £1.4 billion in Wales and employs over 11,000 workers, including many people from Torfaen. However, it has also been very badly hit by the COVID pandemic, and those workplaces may well not have either the resources or the ability to undertake their own workplace testing. What assurances can you give that the new strategy you published today will prioritise workplaces like this that we really need to retain for high-quality, highly skilled jobs in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think the fourth element of the testing strategy, testing to maintain, will be relevant here. And we recognise that, not just those larger employers with 50 or more employees, but in particular, those employees who can't work from home who may still need to work in closer proximity with others are ones we want to prioritise. I think that, actually, not just your own employer that you're referencing, but more broadly in the sector, this should help those businesses. And we're looking to have an approach with the guidance that we've published not just to make that testing more widely available, but to have an approach that brings both the employer and workplace trade unions together to have a shared understanding of how that testing will be used, how it will be administered and how it will protect the business and the jobs and, of course, the health of the whole workforce, with the early warning that it will give with lateral flow devices with a rapid test result and then the ability to have the expectation of a confirmatory PCR test result if someone does test positive. I think this is good news, and I hope that the business in your constituency takes up the offer and talks to their local team about how to access these tests and how to do so in a way that has the support of the workforce as well.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Minister, I just wonder if you could give us some indication of what's been learnt from trying to carry out tests in schools. Because, as I've mentioned before, in my region, certainly, there was at one point a definite disconnect between school staff and NHS leads about who should take responsibility for the administration of lateral flow tests. So, I'm wondering, can you give us an indication now about who should take a lead in the workplace—and that's whichever sector we're talking about? And how will workers who cannot or will not take a test be deployed?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, your second question is really a matter for employers, that's why it's important that they work that through with their workplace representatives, including, crucially, trade unions. Because the tests are there as a tool to help protect the workforce, to help us to have early warning of those people who don't have symptoms. And as we understand it, about a third of people don't display classic symptoms, but nevertheless do have coronavirus. We also know that lateral flow tests have quick results, but also, they're not as accurate as a PCR test—that's why anyone who tests positive should then get themselves tested with a PCR test as well, but they need to go home and isolate from the point they test positive with a lateral flow test. As we're seeing a reduction in transmission and prevalence of the virus, the accuracy of the lateral flow tests—I think that second test with PCR is even more important then as well.

Then, when it comes to how to administer the tests, part of the offer for businesses is about the training on the undertaking of those tests as well. We're not going to be in a position to have healthcare workers going in and administering the level of tests we're providing. The current tests we've made available to early years and education and health and care will amount to about a quarter of a million tests being delivered each week. We don't now have healthcare staff to deliver all of these tests. We've had to have approval from the regulator, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, on how tests can be undertaken by individuals, but the training to undertake those, to make sure they're taken appropriately, is really important.

We accept that in providing it this way it's the same challenge that every other UK country faces too, but even if we accept that not every test will be taken in the optimum manner, we will identify a range of people who are asymptomatic whom we would not otherwise have identified. It will help to take positive cases that would not otherwise be identified out of workplaces and out of circulation. The self-isolation will help to reduce the transmission of the virus.

So, there is no pretence that this is a perfect, error-free approach, either in Wales or any other part of the UK, but it is part of reducing the prevalence of the virus and getting more people to self-isolate appropriately to reduce the harm, economically and in healthcare terms, that coronavirus has caused.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the delivery of dental services in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area? OQ56306

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We continue to implement a safe, phased re‑establishment of NHS dental services. Dental practices are now providing a full range of treatments for patients. As COVID-19 is still in circulation, public health measures remain necessary to ensure a safe environment. This will mean that fewer patients are treated in each clinical session.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, as I know you're aware, I've been contacted by local dentists in my constituency who are frustrated at the lack of support that they've received during the pandemic, as they've incurred substantial costs in order to treat local patients and help offset a potential crisis in oral health by providing vital care to local people.

I know that we've corresponded on this matter a few times over the last few months, and I appreciate from your latest letter that health boards have the flexibility to pay NHS contractors 80 per cent to 100 per cent of their annual dental contract value. But, clearly, from the discussions I'm having with dentists, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Given that it's important to ensure that dentists can survive during this pandemic, and if health boards have the flexibility to support dentists as just mentioned, what discussions has the Welsh Government had with Hywel Dda University Health Board about this issue in order to ensure that there is consistency across the whole of Wales? Can you also tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to protect the sustainability of the sector for the future, so that people who need treatment are able to access it in their local communities?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think there are several different things there. The first is that there's a distinction between NHS dental services and those that are wholly private-run practices as well. There's a point about business support for private practices, but operating within a process and procedure that take account of the health and safety of both the patient as well as staff members. That goes back into earlier questions about employers doing the right thing as well.

When it comes to NHS practices, it would probably be better if I can write to you about the approach that Hywel Dda are taking, their conversations with the chief dental officer's office and how the flexibility to provide support for NHS dental services is being delivered, because I do know you've got concerns that have come to you from people delivering dental services within the area.FootnoteLink

On the further support we've provided, we have, of course, provided ventilation funding support to help make sure that improved ventilation has allowed a further range of activity to be undertaken. On the longer term future, we are looking to continue with our contract reform programme. So, we know that the significant changes in contracts have been broadly welcomed by the dental service, with about 40 per cent of all practices being part of the reform programme before it was suspended prior to the pandemic.

So, we do have a significant contract reform programme to return to once the pandemic is over, and that should mean we have a longer term and more sustainable way of delivering the service, in terms of the financial envelope we have to do so, but also in terms of the value that dental services will provide to the patient in the new way of working that, as I say, has the broad support of dental practitioners.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 8, Hefin David.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

8. Will the Minister provide an update on the delivery of the COVID-19 vaccine for priority groups 6 to 9 in Wales as set out by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation? OQ56312

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Having met our target to offer vaccination to JCVI priority groups 1 to 4 by mid February, we are making good progress in delivering vaccines to groups 5-9. Not only are we making good progress already, but today you'll be aware that the JCVI issued some updated advice in respect of group 6 for people with a learning disability. I expect to publish guidance later today, for both people with learning disabilities and indeed for unpaid carers, to clarify how they will be invited and how they will receive their vaccines within priority group 6.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

As a parent of a child with a learning disability, I declare an interest and welcome that decision. You've said the guidance, you're going to publish today, but the key issue that unpaid carers are asking me is: how will they be called? And I understand, if you could clarify, that will be in the guidance. Can you give us, here in this Senedd, the chance to explain—? Can I give you the chance to explain how those unpaid carers will be called for vaccination?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

So, we've worked with national carers organisations to try to set out and explain how we go beyond the very narrow initial view that the JCVI provided about people in receipt of carers benefits. I think the JCVI guidance looked at a system in England primarily about the identification of carers on GP lists. We've had a different approach here in Wales, you'll be aware, with our carers legislation. So, if people have undertaken carers assessments, the local authorities will have an idea who those people are. We'll also have people who won't have undertaken a formal carers assessment who won't be on a list anywhere, but are undertaking unpaid carer duties. So, we're looking to have an understanding of how we understand who those people are and how we gather that information for the Welsh immunisation system to send out their appointments. We haven't followed the approach that England are taking by having people contact their GPs to go on a register. I think that would have the real risk of overwhelming hard-pressed general practice if unpaid carers were told to contact their GP. So, we've worked with national carers organisations to try to identify who those carers are, and to make sure that that information can then be provided to the Welsh immunisation system. I think the guidance will set out more clearly what that's going to look like to provide the clarity for people who I know have wanted to know how they will access the vaccination that is important for them and, crucially, for the person that they're caring for, and the potential risk of COVID getting to that carer, and what that means for the vulnerable person that they look after. So, later today I need to sign that off once I've finished questions, and that should then be able to go out later this afternoon.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You can go and sign it off now, Minister. That's the end of your questions for this afternoon.

3. Questions to the Minister for Mental Health, Wellbeing and Welsh Language

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, the next questions are questions to the Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's priorities for mental health support? OQ56299

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch. Our immediate priority is to work with partners to respond to changing mental health needs due to the pandemic. Our revised 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan 2019-22 sets out a range of specific actions, supported by the additional £42 million for mental health in our draft budget to support this.

Jack Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Now, we know that serious traumatic incidents can have a serious impact on long-term mental health, and I have raised with you before my concerns that we are not reaching people who perhaps do not seek help through the normal prescribed routes, and I should say that is through no fault of their own. So, with that in mind, how do we proactively support people in my own constituency who have suffered the recent trauma of flooding, and may not even recognise or spot the signs that they are in need of support?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much for, Jack, and just to make it clear that I'm very aware that actually those kinds of traumas that impact people's lives is something that has come across to me very clearly during my time in this post. And it is something that won't come and go; it's something that can last for a long time. So, a trauma-informed approach to mental health is absolutely central to what we need to be doing. I know when it came to the flooding in the Pontypridd area that Mick Antoniw wrote a report, and I was very pleased to be able to get in touch on that issue with the health authority to make sure that they were providing some support there. I did the same thing for Dai Rees when there was a flooding incident in his area. And, of course, I'd be very happy to do the same for you.

But I think it's probably worth pointing out that, in relation to Natural Resources Wales, they have sent out to all communities a newsletter, and they have put in that newsletter a call centre number—our call helpline—and a number for them to contact Mind, in addition to of course those people who are younger perhaps, that they should be contacting Meic, which is our support centre for younger people. So we have encouraged health boards also to make sure that they work with local agencies to ensure that there is access to these services. But if there are any specific issues you want me to take up, I'd be more than happy to do that, Jack, as I've done for others.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Afternoon, Minister. Minister, do you think it's possible for us to do more—for Welsh Government to do more—to reach out to people suffering, or potentially suffering, from mental health issues in rural areas? As I sit here now, by the wonder of Zoom, I can see through the window passers-by walking by in my village. But I spoke to a constituent earlier who lives in one of the more deeper rural areas of my constituency, and she hasn't seen a passer-by for months, due to pandemic restrictions. So, it just seems to me that there are people out there who perhaps aren't being reached out to as much as they could be. I know that your strategy on mental health has been looking at ways that we can reach out to these people, so could you give a particular emphasis on mental health in rural areas?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Nick. And I'll be doing a speech on this very issue in the St David's festival that'll be taking place in the next couple of weeks. So, I'm very happy to be giving this issue some attention, because I do think that there are slightly different issues when it comes to mental health in rural areas, in particular for middle-aged men. So, very often, what we find is that they don't particularly want to go to GPs, for example, because everybody knows each other in these areas. So, whilst in cities the issue very often is the lack of connection, there is, very often, a connection in rural areas where everybody knows each other's business and sometimes they don't want people to know that business.

The other thing I've been doing is liaising very extensively with a lot of the farming communities. I'm very aware that there is a particular issue in the farming community, where of course a lot of people are used to working alone—and of course we're all going through a lot of the experiences that farmers have had to put up with for years and years and years. But there is a particular issue there that I think we need to focus on as well. But I absolutely agree that we need to make sure that those measures are in place. Of course, they're able to access the services that everybody else can access, in terms of call centres, online support, but I am very aware that there is an older community that may want that face-to-face support. And of course, we'll be looking to make sure that, when we come out of this very strict lockdown period, there will be opportunities through our increase in funding to the third sector, that there will be facilities for them to access there.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2, to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, and to be asked by Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

2. What assessment has the Minister made of whether the demand for domestic camping and caravan sites with COVID-safe facilities in Wales can be met in spring/summer 2021? OQ56302

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much for such a timely question, Huw. We continually engage with the sector—all tourism sectors, in fact—through the tourism taskforce, which meets on a weekly basis, and the next meeting is to be held this coming Friday. And we also of course have the four regional forums in place. And the tourism barometer will be published early next month, and I do want to ensure that the necessary information about the demand for camping and domestic caravans is recognised as something that is crucially important at this point.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gweinidog. Thank you so much for that answer. I think you will recognise that many people from working families in our communities will not be rushing off for extravagant holidays overseas this year—they will be looking for cheap and cheerful but good open-air opportunities in domestic tourism. And it's an opportunity, in fact, to make sure that our tourism providers in all parts of Wales, who have struggled over the last year, get a welcome shot in the arm—not the vaccination, but a shot in the arm economically—but also so that some of those families can get to these sites.

Now, in those discussions, Minister, I wonder if you could raise the question with some of the smaller operators, particularly, of camping and caravanning sites, of whether they have sufficient COVID-safe facilities, because I know from experience last year that some of the smaller sites were unable to open because they didn't have simple things such as the ability to provide showers for people to stay overnight and do it COVID-safely and so on. Very simple. So, it might be that there's some scope there maybe even for some grant in aid or soft loans to enable some of the smaller sites as well in parts of Wales to open up.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Diolch, Huw. I'm very much taken by that suggestion, and, indeed, Visit Wales is already working on the lessons learned from last year's reopening with the local authorities to see what we can do. There are interesting and difficult planning issues, of course. The 28-day rule already allows landowners to use land for tented camping only without formal planning permission, but I'm very keen that we should look again—this is a matter obviously to be discussed with my colleague, the planning Minister—at the way we can make our planning system both environmentally sound, but also open to the demand that will arise for the use of the open air and the countryside.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Minister, I listened very carefully to your answer to Huw Irranca-Davies there. As you will know, in Conwy and Denbighshire here, we rely heavily on tourism as an industry, and we have amongst the very best holiday caravan sites and campsites in the whole of the United Kingdom. They tell me that it's very important that they have a clear understanding of when they will be able to reopen again, and, clearly, if there is going to be a phased reopening, it does need to be cognisant of the fact that many people are owners of the caravans on those individual sites and will want to avail themselves of the facilities that they are paying for. So, can you tell us today what your estimation is of the dates on which these holiday caravan parks in particular will be able to reopen their businesses, to give some security to those caravan owners, and the site owners, about the ability to enjoy their holidays once again here in Wales?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Well, I think you will know from other occasions when I've spoken about this that I am the last person to ask about dates where public health issues are involved, because, clearly, as a Government, we've taken a very firm line that everything we do has to be within the context of public health. I'm aware that our neighbouring Government in England has decided to announce dates. Welsh Government will not be announcing dates, and I certainly don't intend to announce this afternoon any dates. But I will certainly take on board your point that we should make sure that all our businesses who provide such a valuable way of enjoying the Welsh countryside, as is provided by the caravan and camping sites—that all these businesses are informed in good time when opening will happen.

Mandy Jones (UKIP, North Wales)

Minister, the 'Visit Wales. Later' slogan was used to great effect last year. Those using caravans in Wales are often people, as Darren said, who own their own, and coming to Wales feels, for them, like coming home. I'm deeply concerned though about the anti-English, anti-incomer rhetoric used in Wales, and also in Scotland. It has been noticed by a lot of caravan owners, and they're saying that they really don't feel that they're welcome and they're thinking of leaving lock, stock and barrel. Will you condemn such rhetoric, and give an assurance that, once it is safe to do so, visitors will receive the warm welcome that they have come to expect over the years? Thank you.

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

That's an absolute and strong yes.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now by the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Minister, you'd have heard in our joint session with the Youth Parliament the emphasis they place on well-being and good mental health. Many of them will soon be entering the workforce, so I'd like to ask what plans are in place, as we move towards the end of the lockdown, to support workplaces that promote well-being and good mental health.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, David. I can assure you that we've put a lot of work into—. In particular, when we come to the workforce who are on the front line, we've made sure that we've put a lot of protection in place for them, but we've gone much further than that when it comes to Working Wales. So, we have a programme, Working Wales. I think about 35 per cent of businesses and public sector areas, they have signed up to this, and they have made a commitment to really stand by their workforce to make sure they get rid of the stigma relating to mental health, and they are adapting what is happening in that space in relation to COVID. So, I'm very pleased to see that that's happening.

And, of course, the other thing we've done is we've continued to fund Time to Change, which is very different from what's been done in England, unfortunately. I think it was a huge mistake on the part of the Conservative Government to cut the funding for Time to Change just in the middle of a pandemic. It was a real shame, because, actually, the one thing that we've done in this pandemic is we've talked about mental health in a way that has now become absolutely accepted. Everybody understands that it is a societal issue that we all have to take seriously, and I'm very pleased to see that happening, and that support in the workplace is absolutely really being driven alongside that project that we have in the Welsh Government.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Well, Minister, I commend the change in attitude that's taken. I speak as someone who has for many years—in fact, throughout my service here—worked with a mental health condition. And would you commend, as I do, charities like Mind, and in particular Mind's workplace well-being index? That's a key tool, it seems to me, for healthy workplaces.

I do want to shift focus now. As many people have been dislocated from their jobs—they've been on furlough for long periods of time, and alas some have now lost their jobs and they suffer the stress triggered by isolation. As unemployment rates are predicted to climb, though I know we did see a recent fall—and let's hope that continues, but the prediction is that unemployment will increase in the next year or so—what measures will be in place to promote mental health and well-being resilience in training and back-to-work programmes?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, David. I think, just to pay tribute to the incredible work that Mind has been doing over the years, and we're very pleased to be funding Mind to really run lots of the projects that we're involved with in Wales—. And I pay tribute in particular to Sara Moseley, who will be leaving the organisation in the next few weeks, for all the work she's done with us in recent years.

Of course, mental health and well-being in the workplace is something that we all have to take very seriously. I do think that dislocation that you talk about is something that we have to take seriously. I'm very interested at the moment—. I'm reading a book about Johann Hari about lost connections, and I do think that that's something that we need to understand. It's the connectivity that is so important when it comes to mental health.

The one thing that I can assure you, David, is that we, as a Government, are very aware that this is not just a health issue, that actually the relationship between mental health and socioeconomic issues is absolutely one and the same. And we are really fearful of a possible downturn when it comes to the economy and the potential increase that that may cause in terms of mental health issues. And that's why we're working very closely with organisations across Wales who give support in that space to make sure that, when we're giving advice when it comes to employment, we're also making sure that we are giving advice and pointing out where people can go to for advice when it comes to mental health services. So, I'm very pleased to see that, and I would encourage people to make sure they call our call helpline or access our online facility, SilverCloud.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Well, thank you for that answer, Minister. I do think there will be a lot of work to do in various training and back-to-work programmes in the future, because many people have suffered real trauma in the way they have been forced to leave the workplace or their traditional work has been taken away from them.

My final question, however, is that COVID has changed also the patterns of work, sometimes permanently, it seems to me, and we've seen this in much of the public sector. And I just wonder how the Welsh Government will ensure that, as the civil service and public agencies shift to greater home working, for instance, this does not reduce the level of support and constructive supervision needed to maintain good mental health and well-being in the workplace. We've seen a societal shift in this area, it seems to me, but it is one that needs careful management if we are to have maximum well-being.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, David. Absolutely, that pattern of working has, I think, changed forever; I don't think we'll be going back to the patterns that we had before and certainly, as a Welsh Government, we've got a commitment now to work towards that 30 per cent of the workforce working from home. So, that's a significant shift. And you're absolutely right: just because people are working from home, it doesn't mean that they don't need support. In fact, they may need more support because they are less connected. So, we are making sure, certainly from a Welsh Government point of view, that we're offering that support. What's really heartened me, though, is that the private sector have really started to understand this now. They've understood that, actually, when it comes to their workforce, their productivity is going to decrease if people have mental health issues and that's why they are putting support in place as well.

I was very pleased to meet up recently with a group of employers from the private sector, who are really focusing on this issue, making sure that the kind of support that they're putting in place for their workers is really listening to the requirements that people are asking for. So, I do think that we also have to be sensitive to the fact that, actually, there may be people who find it very uncomfortable to work from home. You think about some people, in particular, maybe in domestic abuse settings, it may be very, very difficult for them. So, we need to make sure that we keep these lines of communication open for people and provide that option to get back to an office, if that is the way that they want to go in future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. Will the Minister outline what steps the Welsh Government has taken to secure access to mental health services during the pandemic?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, we have ensured that that access is available and that it's still seen as something that is an essential service within the NHS. Of course, demand for services has increased during that period and that's why we have provided far more funding into this particular area. We've provided an additional £1.5 million to target that help at help in our communities, through the third sector. And I think, for me, that's a new emphasis that we must provide in order to take the pressure off the NHS, wherever possible, and to provide that care where it will be more sustainable in the longer term, within the community.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I'm of course pleased to hear the Minister say that services and access to services are crucial. We're all agreed on that, but it's true that many people are having difficulty accessing the support that they need. If you look at Stats Wales data, we see that the numbers referred to mental health services at a local level reduced by over a quarter in the nine months to December, as compared to the previous year. The number of assessments fell by around a quarter too and the number of therapeutic interventions fell by 10 per cent in the same period. So, although we are hearing that these are crucial services, there are too many people who can't access them. So, what additional steps can the Welsh Government take in order to ensure that people who need that support can access it?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. The data published today does demonstrate that we have only just missed our target of 80 per cent of assessments being carried out—I think it was 78 per cent that we reached. So, I do think that it's positive that we were able to reach that level although there had been a huge increase in demand. One thing that concerns me is that the data refers to those under the age of 18 and that's below target and that's something that's concerning, but of course we've put a number of measures in place to provide far more support within our schools. And, of course, in the summer, we will be rolling out a new system where there will be early intervention in order to support young people. So, I do very much hope that we will be focusing on those, particularly young people, as 80 per cent of mental health problems, as we know, start among the under-18s.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Well, I'm pleased that you referred to young people, because, as you said, the stats demonstrate that young people do suffer more. And we know that the pandemic has had a very grave impact on the mental health of people and that young people have suffered more than anyone. Early access to care for young people is particularly important in trying to prevent problems from becoming more acute in the longer term, and that's why we in Plaid Cymru are talking about having this network of well-being centres for young people, where they can access mental health support immediately.

Now, you've referred to the data, but will you commit to looking in detail as to how we can make sure that that data is changed the next time it's published, and put a very clear plan in place that will note what support should be available and how that could be accessed, and also ensure, in addition to the additional funding allocated over the past 12 months, that mental health services, in primary care specifically, are given the resources necessary in order to cope with the demand now and in the future?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Rhun. Well, of course, the figures that came from that survey conducted by the children's commissioner raised major concerns for us, the fact that 67 per cent of children between 12 and 18 had said that they felt sad some of the time or all of the time, and of course that is a cause of great concern to us. That is why we have targeted much of our work over the past few months in this area, and I want to pay tribute to the children and young people's committee that has done so much work in this area and have assisted us in terms of our direction of travel.

I do think that the additional support and the additional funding that will be provided to assist in schools—and I do hope that that will help—but we must ensure that that does link up with the early help and enhanced support. So, a new framework will be put in place in the summer in order to ensure that we do co-ordinate the offer available in school and the offer available within our communities, not necessarily through the NHS, because I'm very keen to ensure that we do use the third sector to assist us in this area too.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the mental health of the NHS and social care workforce during the pandemic? OQ56313

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I'd like to pay tribute for the real interest that Jayne Bryant has shown in this issue. I know she's just just asked the question to the health Minister on a similar subject, and I think it's absolutely right to focus on this. The Welsh Government fully recognises the incredible physical and emotional demands faced by our NHS and social care workforce, and we're really closely monitoring the impact and working with partners, to provide immediate additional support to respond to people’s changing mental health needs.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you very much for that answer, Minister. Last month, I was able to hold a short debate to highlight the pressure on our front-line NHS and social care staff and what they've experienced over the last year. I was privileged to read out some powerful and emotive statements from nurses, theatre assistants, paramedics and practitioners about the realities of facing the virus. Staff are exhausted, both mentally and physically, and many have feelings of grief and guilt. It's clear that the consequences of COVID will be felt by those on the front line for many years to come. It's likely to have a legacy of mental health issues and people questioning whether they still want to, or are able to, stay in the job because of burnout. What steps can the Welsh Government take to target support on our NHS and social care workforce so that we do all we can to look after those who care for us?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Jayne. I must say that I'm very pleased that we've been able to give an extra £1 million to enhance the support of the programme that we have, Health for Health Professionals Wales, and that psychological support, which includes a helpline. The Samaritans are there specifically to help people; there is a doctor who will be able to ring back within 24 hours. And what's really great is that we know that there's been a really good response to this provision.

Since that debate, I've been fortunate enough to meet the Royal College of Nursing and they were very clearly trying to outline to me the kind of trauma that people on the front line have been undergoing, and they know that's not trauma you can tuck away, that is something—. They haven't had a chance to process what they've gone through on the front line, and they're very aware that when it comes to this programme of intensity that they're going through at the moment, when they have time to process that, that's when the impact may hit them. And so they were very keen to emphasise that whatever we're putting in place now will not be able to be taken away, because that longer term trauma that we really have to consider, we will have to make sure that we are giving that support for the longer term, so I'm very pleased to see that. I'm very pleased to see also that the Royal College of General Practitioners have responded very positively also to the support we give to Health for Health Professionals Wales.

Laura Anne Jones (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, Jayne Bryant and I only heard this morning in health committee about the mental health impact on nursing staff, and the absolute need for them to have a chance to rest and recuperate. And so many are putting in long hours way above and beyond what they should be doing as they feel the responsibility to do so, but they need respite and looking after themselves. But, as well as this, and as part of NHS England's response, they've created hubs. These hubs are free of charge and offer confidential advice and support to NHS staff who, over the last year, have cared for millions of people with coronavirus, whilst keeping vital services like maternity, mental health and cancer care going. Minister, will you commit to studying these measures to see whether similar action could benefit NHS staff here in Wales? Thank you.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks very much, Laura. Well, we don't set up these programmes without consulting with people to ask them what it is that they want, what it is that is meaningful and useful to them. One of the groups that I've been speaking to—. One of the issues, of course, is we've put a lot of support in place, but I was hearing that some people simply don't have time to access that support. So, if they come in in the morning, they feel like they've got to hold it together to do their work during the day, and by the end of their shift they just want to collapse. So, when is it that they can have that support that we're offering them? So, you're absolutely right: we need to make sure that there is some space to allow people to access that support when it's right for them. Of course, we do have alternatives; we've got online support that they can access as well. But I think we're going to have to think very carefully, when we see a reduction in the numbers in relation to the virus, despite the pressures that we've heard of from Angela earlier today—how many people are waiting—we really have to think about looking after those front-line staff and making sure that they do get some kind of break. I think we're going to have to ask the Welsh public to be a little bit patient, just to give these people time to breathe so that they can really get on with their work, because the last thing we want is to see these people leave the NHS.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

4. Will the Minister provide an update on progress towards achieving the objectives set out in Cymraeg 2050? OQ56311

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Vikki. Since launching 'Cymraeg 2050', the narrative around the language has changed considerably. We must build on this new momentum in order to ensure more access to Welsh-medium education, and we need to open more early years settings in addition to the 40 planned for opening. We also need to continue to provide exciting opportunities for people to hear and to use the language.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Minister. Recent figures have shown that Rhondda Cynon Taf has the most pupils being taught through the medium of Welsh of all council areas in the Central South Consortium area, with just under 19 per cent of learners. Huge strides are being been made to improve the Welsh-medium offer in Cynon Valley still further through the Welsh Government's twenty-first century schools programme, with Ysgol Gyfun Rhydywaun being awarded £12.1 million for an expansion, which will allow it to accommodate an additional 187 pupils, and Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Aberdar being the recipient of £4.5 million, which will enable it to offer an additional 48 places. Minister, how are you working with colleagues in the Welsh Government and our partners in local government to improve the provision and the take-up of Welsh-medium education?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Vikki. First of all, I want to pay tribute to the excellent work that they do in the council in Rhondda. It's incredible, the way that people have taken the opportunity to learn the language, and it's good to see that 19 per cent are already receiving their education through the medium of Welsh. But, of course, over the next few years, we need to see an increase in those numbers too, and that is why we as a Government have provided enhanced capital funding to ensure that the schools are available to assist with those projects. There will be an expectation that RCT, over the next 10 years, will increase those numbers to around 27 per cent of the population. Of course, in order to do that, we must ensure that there is a pipeline of those younger children coming through, and that's why we're always focused initially on increasing the numbers attending nursery provision, so that then they follow that route to Welsh-medium education. I very much hope that we will see that increase. It is incredible to see that difference, and I'm very pleased that we as a Welsh Government have been able to provide that additional funding, and also increase capacity at Dolau school. There are some ideas too in terms of changing the category of Penderyn school so it becomes a Welsh-medium school too. So, I hope that this will all lead to a huge celebration in this area when the Eisteddfod comes in 2024.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I'm sure the former head of Penderyn school will be very pleased to hear that news. Minister, what consideration have you given to establishing a digital fund for the Welsh language to support more use of everyday Welsh in the digital sphere? As you know, I'm eager to see everyday Welsh being normalised in day-to-day communication. It's a language for everyone, not just for some communities or some roles within the public sector, and, of course, the digital world is an increasingly important part of our daily lives. The Welsh Conservatives will include something of this kind in our manifesto to encourage, support and facilitate the use of Welsh online, and I hope you would agree with that idea.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We not only agree, Suzy, but we have a programme for Welsh and technology that is already in place. I provided an update on this just before Christmas to show just how far we've gone with that technology plan. It's become quite clear during the pandemic that we need to understand that our society has moved to a great extent online, and we must acknowledge that we need to consider the Welsh language in those discussions as to how we communicate online. That's why we've been pushing Microsoft, for example, to see if they can do more to ensure that we can use the Welsh language on Teams. They have now said that they are eager to see those developments, and we hope that will be delivered in the autumn. They've taken a while, but we do hope that we will now see a difference in that area.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

5. What work is being done by the Welsh Government during the pandemic in partnership with local health boards, councils and charities to support those living with substance misuse? OQ56328

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

During the pandemic, we've worked very closely with area planning boards and other partners. Thanks to the excellent efforts of our substance misuse services on the front line, as well as other services, we have provided additional guidance and support, including new treatment options and funding to meet the complex needs of this group.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Organisations like Kaleidoscope, working as part of the Gwent drug and alcohol project, are concerned at the difficulties in ensuring good vaccination take-up amongst service users. Their front-line workers have very strong relationships of trust with those service users. They're in regular contact with them and understand the difficulties of chaotic lifestyles. Minister, would you agree that those front-line workers are well placed to actually deliver the vaccinations, given their own training and backgrounds and willingness to undergo any additional training that may be necessary? Allowing them to do that would be one way of ensuring good take-up of vaccine amongst this very vulnerable group.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thanks for your support and your interest in this very sensitive area. I was really pleased to meet with the Developing a Caring Wales group, and, of course, Kaleidoscope was there as a part of that representation of people looking after people in these very difficult situations. I heard in that meeting of their offer that they would like to make in terms of offering to vaccinate some of the most fragile people within our communities, with whom, as you say, there is a degree of trust that's been built up. I'm pleased to say that I did pass that information on to our vaccination team. Also, just in terms of the other priority groups, you will see today that we are going to issue new guidance—it has just been published, at 3 o'clock—in terms of people with serious mental health conditions. I think there will be people within the scope of the people who work with Kaleidoscope who maybe will come into that category. We've asked the health boards to make sure that they work with the third sector, with organisations like Kaleidoscope, to make sure that we can reach out to these more vulnerable groups who perhaps are not the kind of people who would go into a normal system.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to try to prevent an increase in suicides as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ56336

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We've ensured that mental health services are essential services during the pandemic and have invested in a range of approaches to improve support. Preventing suicide is a complex issue and requires a multi-agency approach. We have strengthened arrangements, therefore, to improve the co-ordination of actions with partners including police, local authorities and the third sector.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the Minister for that response.

Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

This is an extremely difficult and sensitive subject, as anyone who has lost a loved one to suicide will know, but I feel it is important that we talk about it so that we can be sure that everything can be done to prevent deaths. The issue came home to me last week after watching an ITV news report that included an interview with the leader of RCT council. He said that the suicide rate had doubled in the area during the pandemic, and I've heard concerning stories across Wales. The situation was already concerning before COVID, with Office for National Statistics data showing that suicides were at their highest for 20 years in the latest year for which data are available, which is 2019. The Welsh Government does have a suicide and self-harm prevention strategy, which is very welcome of course, but could you give me some more detail, Minister, about how the effects of the pandemic have been taken into account in delivering this service, and will you please set out the support that is currently available for people who are suffering from depression during the lockdown so that people can know where to turn to for help?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We have been able, with some additional funding, to appoint a national suicide prevention co-ordinator, and we've now got three regional co-ordinators to make sure we strengthen that partnership working. It's a very odd situation, because one of the things that we've tried to do is to make sure that we follow real-time information. Suicide is a really difficult area, because actually you have to wait until there's an inquest to get a formal understanding of what exactly has happened. That provides us with a problem, but rather than waiting for that to happen, we've got now these organisations, including the police, making sure they've fed into this task and finish group with us and the police to make sure we understand what's going on on the ground.

I guess one of the heartening things is that The BMJ recently published a report to say there wasn't any evidence of a consistent increase in suicide rates during the early stages of the pandemic. So, that's the picture that they've seen, and of course, we'll just keep an eye on what's happening within this space, because of course, this is the most tragic situation and we have to do everything we can to make sure that we're assessing that. Health boards are required to report unexpected deaths of patients within 24 hours, and there's an expectation that there's going to be an investigation within 60 days, so that real-time issue is something that we're keeping an eye on.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

7. What is the Welsh Government doing to address the mental health and well-being needs of public sector workers in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ56327

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

We take the health and well-being of our workforce extremely seriously and encourage employers to provide a range of extra support during the pandemic. We are monitoring the impact closely and working with partners to provide immediate additional help to respond to people's changing mental health needs.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I've listened with interest to your comments to I think it was Jayne Bryant and to David Melding. It's all about mental health and how we can keep our eyes open for people who are suffering. You will know as well as I do that organisations such as Mind have done endless surveys that show that public sector workers suffer disproportionately, take more time off work, and have greater mental health issues across the whole of Wales. I've had a number of e-mails from public sector workers in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire just saying how hard they're finding it to manage lockdown, to cope with it, like so many of us. I just wondered are there any programmes that we can put in place or are there any ways of Welsh Government being able to encourage public sector organisations to be able to really try to reach out to those who are working on their own, isolated at home or perhaps in a very busy home where they're finding it very difficult to do their jobs because of all the noise around them. They may have young children at home who aren't at school and the whole situation is getting to them. Because if you have a person in front of you or in the office just next door, you can have a much better feel for how they might be. It's very difficult to tell when you're on a Zoom call to somebody once a week. Is there anything the Welsh Government can proactively do to help public sector employers really look after those employees?

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Absolutely. I won't dwell on help for health professionals, because that's a specific programme we've got in place, but we do have Healthy Working Wales, of course, which is a programme that lots of public sector organisations have already signed up to. I know all seven of the health boards and the Welsh Government have signed up to this, and many local authorities, including Dyfed-Powys Police. So, there are lots of organisations that have already signed up to that. What's happened is that there's been strengthened advice within that programme in order to understand the new context of the pandemic. What is important also is that there are a number of programmes and organisations in the Hywel Dda area that are able to help in this space. We've got lots of different programmes, including the healthy and active fund. If we can get people to understand the link between mental health and physical activity, I think that is really important that we encourage people to do that, and I know that there are projects across west Wales that are helpful in that sense. So, there are plenty of places people can go for advice. The first thing to do, I think, is to go to the websites of the health boards. We've asked them now to update their advice on those to make those much more accessible, much easier to read, and every one of the health boards has now done that. That should be easier for people to access now and they should get that local advice that may be suitable for their area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 8, Rhun ap Iorwerth, to be answered by the Deputy Minister.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on support for tourism businesses in Ynys Môn? OQ56318

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I am fully aware of the pressure on the industry in Anglesey and I very much appreciate the relationship between ourselves as a Government and the local authority in Ynys Môn, under a strong leadership there. I'm pleased to say that we are continuing to seek ways of collaborating and also of securing adequate funding from the UK Government.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you. The sector certainly needs further support. There are still businesses who are only receiving a little support, or virtually none—those who are self-employed, those who don't pay their staff through PAYE, businesses that opened too close to the original lockdown, those that are receiving the self-employment income support grants, but therefore haven't been eligible for the grants from the specific fund for the sector. There is one fund looking at commercial profits, looking at the threshold and another on turnover. I've received correspondence from a company running a number of restaurants—the staff are on furlough, but the owners can't pay themselves because there is no profit in the business.

These are very common stories. I want this sector to be fit and ready to reopen, so can I ask you what you are doing now to try and close these gaps? With the new normal being very different to how things were, when things do reopen—fewer customers in restaurants, for example, a bus company not being able to work, possibly—how do you hope to assist businesses in reopening on a phased basis? When will we have the kind of recovery plan that will engender confidence in the sector for the future?

Dafydd (Independent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Everything that we do as a Welsh Government is aimed at the recovery of the tourism sector, and other sectors. We have secured almost £3 million for almost 200 tourism businesses on Anglesey, and that is in addition to the grants that have been allocated very effectively by the local authority. That will continue.

I continue to meet regularly with tourism Ministers across the UK and I have to say that strong pressure is being placed on the UK Government by my fellow Minister in England, because he represents a rural area that relies on tourism, similar to what we have in Wales. That's how we're seeking to work.

I would like to have any information on anyone who is having such difficulties as you mentioned. Where they fall between the gaps between the Welsh Government and UK Government support programmes, we will look into that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Deputy Minister and the Minister.

4. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to a topical question, which will be answered by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs. The question is to be asked by Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the support that is available to people following the recent floods that have affected communities across Wales? TQ541

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. On 27 January, Welsh Government announced a further £6.5 million funding to support local authorities to respond to severe weather events. This includes support for households who suffered flooding in their homes or were evacuated, with payments of up to £1,000 administered by local authorities.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I'm grateful for that response. Can the Minister also tell us whether businesses affected by the most recent floods will be able to access the flood support grant fund that was announced earlier this year, specifically targeted at businesses? In looking at those communities that have been affected recently by floods, in my constituency and in nearby constituencies, will they now be given further investment from NRW in order to build flood defences and flood prevention programmes?

Specifically, in terms of prioritising those communities, I understand that there is a threshold, Minister, in terms of what's called section 19 reports where there have been floods. I think that threshold is around 20 buildings having been affected. Now, in a number of rural communities, it's a small number of properties that are affected, but they are regularly affected by flooding. I'm aware in my constituency, in Pontargothi, there are eight buildings that have been flooded three times in three months. So, would it be possible to look at the cumulative impact of flooding in rural communities, where there are fewer buildings, but of course you can just imagine how the residents in those buildings feel, having faced that kind of damage a number of times in a brief period.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch, Adam Price, and if we can just focus on Pontargothi, first of all, as you know, we met with a range of partners in relation to the flooding that happened, unfortunately, in your constituency. And I should just say there's no threshold set in statute when it comes to a section 19 report. We expect if 20 houses have been flooded that that local authority, or that flood risk management authority, would then bring forward a section 19 report, but they could choose to have a lower threshold and assess that in relation to each event. So, I would certainly discuss that with the local authority in relation to your own constituency.

We have seen some unprecedented flooding over the past year, as you're aware, and I've made it very clear not just to NRW but to all risk management authorities that funding is available, and they should come forward with schemes that we can then consider. The Welsh Government has and continues to proactively manage and respond to flood risk across Wales. By the end of this term of Government, which obviously is only a few weeks away now, we have invested £390 million in our flood defences. So, the funding is available—there's still funding available—and whenever there is an event, that needs to be looked at by, as I say, either the local authority or NRW, and the funding is available from Welsh Government.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Minister, for that answer regarding flood defences. As I think all Members are aware, the flooding has posed major challenges in rural communities, including those in my constituency, and I'd like to pay tribute to those in the communities who've come together and supported those that have been worst affected by the floods. Can I ask you, in villages in Monmouthshire, the flooding has exacerbated already underlying capacity issues in the drainage and sewage network, and I've been in contact with Welsh Water Dŵr Cymru over a number of constituency cases? They've been very helpful. Are you as a Government liaising with local authorities and also Welsh Water to make sure that the network is being monitored properly, and is upgraded as and when necessary so that it is fit for purpose, so that when future flooding comes along, perhaps the problems aren't quite so bad?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Absolutely. Welsh Water Dŵr Cymru are a valued partner in relation to this work, and whenever we have a—. You will have heard me just say in my answer to Adam Price that I met with him and a range of partners, and Welsh Water were part of that. But it is really important after any flooding event, we know how heartbreaking—. If your home is flooded, it's very, very stressful and very traumatic. So, whenever there's any flooding, it's really important that we find out the cause of that flooding, and sometimes it can be something that can be obviously rectified straight away, sometimes it needs a longer solution, and it's really important that our partners work with us, with local authorities, all partners together to look at those potential solutions. And a solution could be much longer term, and could be a new flood defence, so somewhere between something simple and, as I say, a new construction. So, it's just really important that everybody works together, and I know that has happened in Monmouth.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The next item on the agenda is the 90-second statements. First up this week is Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Diolch, Llywydd. On 21 February, we marked one of the many significant days in the remarkable history of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. It was on this date in 1804 that the Trevithick steam engine made its first ever rail journey, nine miles from Penydarren to the Merthyr-Cardiff canal. This journey made Richard Trevithick and not George Stephenson the real father of the railways. And such was the scepticism on the part of the Cyfarthfa ironmaster, Richard Crawshay, that he placed a 500 guineas bet with Samuel Homfray from the Penydarren works on whether the train would actually be able to haul 10 tonnes of iron to Abercynon. He lost his bet.

Today, it's through our heritage that we remember this event through the Trevithick trial and, of course—and I remind the Deputy Minister for culture of this—the replica of the Trevithick engine is in Swansea, not in Merthyr Tydfil. There are now significant plans to develop the Cyfarthfa experience under the brand of the Crucible Project. In my view, Richard Trevithick and what he did in Merthyr Tydfil on 21 February 1804 should form an important part of that story. As National Museum Wales states:

'We cannot underestimate the importance of Trevithick's locomotive. In 1800, the fastest a man could travel over land was at a gallop on horseback; a century later, much of the world had an extensive railway system on which trains regularly travelled at speeds of up to sixty miles per hour.'

This

'remarkable transformation, a momentous occasion in world history'

was initiated in my constituency in February 1804. Diolch.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Monday 22 February marked the start of Fairtrade Fortnight, an important movement within the country, given that Wales became the first Fairtrade Nation on 6 June 2008. At the heart of fair trade is localism, and I'm proud to be a member of the Abergavenny Fairtrade Forum, which is a vibrant and enthusiastic team. The forum was founded in 2007 and has been very active since then. Over the past few years, I've been honoured to be invited to open various events in Abergavenny, such as the Fairtrade Fortnight finale, organised by local couple, David and Martha Holman, from the charity Love Zimbabwe. However, due to the current restrictions, all public events, such as the fair-trade breakfast and the pancake morning, have had to be cancelled. The forum has several online events, which can be accessed on the group's Facebook page. Fair Trade Wales also has numerous other online activities, which are featured on their website. This year's theme, as established by the Fairtrade Foundation is 'climate resilience' and the challenges posed by climate change to farmers and their workers across the world—something that I know is of great concern to Members here, and of which you'll be fully supportive. I'm pleased that the Senedd has committed to using fair-trade tea, coffee, sugar and biscuits on the Senedd estate, and whilst we're not able to be there at the moment, I do hope that you'll all join me in celebrating this fortnight with a cup of fair-trade tea or coffee at home.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Dr Julian Tudor Hart was one of the most influential and inspirational doctors of the twentieth century. He was a general practitioner who began his career shortly after the birth of the national health service, and most of his working life was spent as a GP serving the deprived mining community at Glyncorrwg, in my constituency of Aberavon. Here, he was able to further his research, combining his training in public health with the everyday care of his patients. He was able to study the effects of planned, anticipatory care over several decades, and thus was a strong advocate for preventative actions to avoid the need for treatment. He understood that effective primary care depends on a solid foundation of trust and continuity amongst all parties. This research led to the production of his paper on the inverse care law, which was published in The Lancet for the first time on 27 February 1971, thus celebrating its fiftieth anniversary this weekend. Dr Tudor Hart's work concluded that people in living in more deprived areas had higher death rates due to people's predisposition towards sickness as a result of circumstances or lack of a correct treatment. It was visionary, and became recognised throughout the world as a major piece of work on health inequalities, stating that the availability of good medical care tended to vary inversely with the needs of the population served. The paper considered the market distribution of medical care to be 'primitive and historically outdated'.

Market forces should not dictate the healthcare of communities. That should be based upon need and not status. I have strong socialist views and believe in this concept, that the need to address health inequalities cannot be owned by any one political party but should be owned by everyone. We frequently praise our fantastic NHS staff as they care for people across Wales, but if we wish to ensure that many people do not need to seek care in the first place, then we must continue to address the challenges that were identified by Dr Tudor Hart in his paper 50 years ago. It is concerning that the inverse care law remains as relevant today as it did 50 years ago. We must all commit to ensuring that it does not remain important over the next 50 years.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Good health is something we all wish for, and often take for granted. When our child is born, we hope for a healthy baby with the requisite number of fingers and toes. As we get older, we expect that medical advances will keep pace with our needs, and, if the worst was to befall, our healthcare system, with its plethora of research, medical interventions, drugs, and, above all, options, will soften the blow. But for those diagnosed with a rare disease, that is not always the case. Research into orphan conditions is often poorly funded, options are limited, and treatments usually incredibly expensive, and, on the grounds of costs and minimum need, often rejected by regulators and Governments. With that in mind, imagine being a SWAN: someone whose condition is so rare that all the science in the world can't pinpoint it—a syndrome without a name.

But there is hope. Today, all four home nations came together, in the week that we mark Rare Disease Day, to discuss the progress made by individual nations on implementing the UK rare diseases framework. In Wales, there have been some extraordinary improvements, but, nonetheless, access to treatments and support for the rare disease community is basically left to a handful of passionate and dedicated clinicians and the tireless efforts of campaigners and organisations such as Genetic Alliance UK, Rare Disease UK and SWAN UK. But we do have the opportunity, and the groundwork is in place. So, I ask that the next Welsh Government take up this baton and make it happen. Whoever you are, you have the ability to ease if not transform lives—please, take the challenge.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal—A British Sign Language (BSL) Bill.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 6 on our agenda is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal for a British Sign Language, BSL, Bill. And I'm pleased to say that this debate will be interpreted live into BSL for those watching on Senedd.tv today. And I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion. Mark.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. Based on official statistics, the British Deaf Association believe that 7,200 people in Wales use BSL, of whom 4,000 are Deaf. In October 2018, calls were made at the North Wales 'Lend me your ears' 2018 conference for British Sign Language legislation in Wales, looking at the 2015 British Sign Language (Scotland) Act, and their national BSL plan, published in October 2017, establishing a national advisory group including up to 10 deaf people who use BSL as their preferred or first language. Although the Wales Act 2017 reserves equal opportunities to the UK Government, Senedd lawyers have confirmed that a BSL (Wales) Bill would be compliant if it related to the exceptions listed in it.

The BSL (Scotland) Act was passed on 17 December 2015, marking a new era in the deaf community's campaign for the legal recognition of BSL across the UK. The Northern Ireland Assembly has also recently recommenced preliminary legislative work on both British and Irish sign languages. My proposed BSL Bill for Wales seeks to ensure that the deaf community and people with hearing loss have a voice in the design and delivery of services to ensure they meet the needs of service users, with actions including the establishment of a BSL national advisory group in Wales.

The British Deaf Association have told me that my proposed Bill is very important for their deaf members and supporters in Wales, who've been campaigning for a BSL Act in Wales for several years. Although they've been commissioned by the Welsh Government to develop a new BSL charter for Wales, they tell me that my, quote, 'planned BSL Bill is an enormous step forward, and if it's anything like the BSL Bill in Scotland, will receive unanimous and total support of all the parties.' 'It's a win-win', they said. They added their hope that this motion will be warmly received by the Senedd and convince the Welsh Government to establish a cross-party working group, where this coming together and working together was a critical factor in the success of the BSL Bill in Scotland.

My proposed Bill would make provision to encourage the use of BSL in Wales and improve access to education and services in BSL. In 2019, Deffo!, Wales's deaf youth forum, submitted a petition to the Senedd to improve access to education and services in BSL. They state their disappointment that nothing has happened since then and that one of the most important things is that BSL starts in early years and is continued through the whole of educational development. On National Deaf Children's Society—or NDCS—Cymru's advice, the Welsh Government established an advisory group on access to the new curriculum for BSL users and to develop guidance, which is currently out for consultation. However, an independent review of opportunities for families of young deaf children to learn sign language, published by the Welsh Government, confirmed NDCS's view that opportunities are far too limited, and that many families of deaf children want to learn to sign to aid communication with their deaf child, but feel unable to do so. The Royal National Institute for Deaf People state that weaknesses in the 2011 census resulted in many people who use BSL not being captured. They say that experience from Scotland has shown that their national advisory group have struggled to get local authorities to engage with and develop their BSL plans, suggesting that any future BSL legislation in Wales must place duties on local authorities and be sufficiently enforced. As they state, a BSL Bill would not be a means to an end in itself, but act as a platform to ensure improved services for the deaf community and people with hearing loss, and improve the support currently offered, so people can fully engage in things like employment and education. As they also state, the Bill should be seen as a piece of enabling legislation, to help focus efforts to improve BSL skills within public services and address communication support, so costs are not borne by the people who need additional help to tackle the barriers faced by D/deaf people and those with hearing loss, when the cost of BSL classes is so high.

RNID staff want to see improved access to education and lifelong learning, employment, volunteering, media and news and arts, culture and leisure. It is the view of Senedd legal services that a Bill about British Sign Language similar to Scotland's British Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015 would be within the Senedd's legislative competence, and the wording of my legislative proposal has been drafted with them to achieve this. The only potential issue will be whether this Bill would fall under the equal opportunities reservation under paragraph 187, Schedule 7A of the Government of Wales Act 2006. In January 2004, the Welsh Government recognised BSL as a language in its own right. The exclusion of language in the definition of equal opportunities reserved to the UK Government in the 2006 Government of Wales Act suggests that the equal opportunities reservation would not apply. Scotland is also subject to the equal opportunities reservation, and the Scottish BSL Act provides a good precedent for Wales, where Senedd legal services are not aware of any legal challenge to the Act by the courts. As a D/deaf constituent told me, 'This BSL Bill is important. BSL is a language in its own right, with its own grammar and vocabulary, which enables many of our deaf, deafblind, and hard-of-hearing citizens to learn, work, be creative, live life to the full and make their contribution to our culture and our economy.'

I hope Members will support my proposal accordingly. Thank you.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

First of all, can I put on the record that my sister is profoundly deaf and uses sign language? I will be supporting the Member's legislative proposal today, but we're so close to dissolution it is very unlikely to succeed in becoming law before we dissolve. But that's no reason not to support it. In 2018, the Petitions Committee produced four recommendations, all which I agreed with. If you want to know what it's like being deaf, put the television on, watch a drama and turn the sound off, because that's the life they live. That is what watching television is like for people who are deaf.

The Welsh Government should support British Sign Language as a minority language, and encourage local authorities to recognise it as the first language of very many deaf people. Because you've got to remember that we have three first languages in Wales, and British Sign Language is one of them. And before somebody says, 'What about Welsh sign language?', because of the way sign language exists, it's much more akin to Japanese and Chinese and other languages that are based on pictures and signs, as opposed to vocabulary.

The Welsh Government should give consideration to the development of a national charter for the delivery of services and resources, including the education of deaf children and young people. We need deaf people to be educated through sign language, because that's what they understand. We believe—and this what the Petitions Committee said—that a charter underpinned by the Equality Act 2010 would enable local authorities to plan and resource support, with a nationally recognised framework to ensure consistent arrangements throughout Wales—we haven't got consistency of provision; some areas are better than others—and the importance of sign language to actually get information across. The Petitions Committee also welcomed that the Welsh Government has indicated British Sign Language is actually being considered in the new curriculum. It needs to be part of the curriculum, not only for deaf children, but for children who aren't deaf, so that they can speak and correspond with children who are deaf.

A lot of basic sign language can be learnt relatively quickly, like a lot of most languages can be learnt very quickly. It gets much more difficult with time, but there are probably over 50 or 60 signs that would get you around quite well. So, it's really important. And, saying that, we should have a GCSE in sign language. We've got nowhere with that—'It's because there are not many applicants or potential applicants.' I've looked through some subjects the WJEC supports. A number of them have under 100 people entering them each year. So, that is no excuse. This just demands, and I really am pushing for this, somebody to take this on and show some leadership and aim of doing something on behalf of the deaf community in Wales.

We need as a minimum to introduce a minimum standard of BSL qualification for learning assistants supporting deaf children and young people. There isn't any. I could work as a learning assistant in a school with deaf children because I know a small amount of sign language. I don't think I'd be suitable. I'm sure you don't think I'd be suitable either.

Finally, we've had petitions, we've had debates, before, but I have come, unfortunately, around to the conclusion that the only way we're going to get action is by legislation. So, I will be supporting this legislative proposal, even though I'm doubtful that we will get it done before we break in March.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I'm very pleased to support Mark Isherwood's motion, which asks us to note a proposal for a Bill that would make provision to encourage people to use British Sign Language in Wales and to increase access to education and services through the medium of BSL.

Now, over the years, as a GP, and, in more recent years, as chair of the cross-party group on deaf issues, I have become very much aware of the whole host of challenges facing the deaf community, including the range of solutions to those challenges, and Mike Hedges has spoken very well about those. BSL is one of those solutions.

Now, in an ideal world, the majority of our population would, naturally, respect the rights of any minority, looking at everyone as being equal. But, as we know, that isn't always the case, with the expectation that the minority will comply with the priorities of the majority for all sorts of different reasons. So, we must safeguard the rights of the minority through law. We cannot rely on the goodwill of the majority. It is law that allows a change of attitudes, as Mike has just outlined. We have seen this in a number of areas already. And, in the linguistic context, we have seen legislation in the area of the Welsh language in order to secure rights and services through the medium of that language in Wales. Well, I would argue that the need is exactly the same with BSL. We need legislation. Mark Isherwood has already outlined the case in favour. There is a need, as many of my constituents have told me over these past few days, once they discovered that this debate was taking place today.

A Bill or a piece of legislation isn't going to transform the situation overnight, clearly, but it is a way of showing respect and giving credibility to valid beliefs on the dire need to develop further training, more job opportunities, better communication and, in general terms, to enhance the lives of deaf individuals within our nation. Although BSL is the only language of many of the deaf community in Wales, it does not have legal status. So, support this motion today in order to change that. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Firstly, I would like to thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward a legislative proposal that would help us to create a better Wales. It is a sad fact, however, that the BSL community continues to face such challenges, even after the petition submitted by Deffo!, which then called on the Welsh Government to improve access to education and services in BSL to improve the quality of life for D/deaf people of all ages. Our nation has simply not delivered and I wholeheartedly agree with introducing the requirement that public bodies co-produce and publish their own BSL plan to develop awareness, training and improved access to front-line services.

As Members of the Senedd, we truly represent residents who use BSL, so I thought it essential that my own office team and I strove to learn. This should be the case across front-line, public-facing bodies in Wales, so that services are at least trying to be accessible to the around 7,500 people who not only use BSL, but rely on it in Wales. We need to empower this community. Now that requires us to have a Welsh Government that acts on the Children's Commissioner for Wales's findings that there is a blatant lack of support available to ensure that family members can use BSL. With a lack of communication skills, this, therefore, places an unnecessary and unfair barrier between BSL users and their families.

Now, a Government that addresses the terrible fact that only half of all adult BSL courses were fully funded by the Welsh Government, that has to change; a commitment to tackling the finding by the National Deaf Children's Society that not all online learning resources are accessible, despite schools being required to make provisions available under the Equality Act 2010; and legislation that helps to address the unacceptable fact that levels of support provided by local authorities vary, I can see no better way of achieving this than through this proposed Bill and the establishment of a BSL national advisory group. In fact, we could go so far as backing Professor Graham Turner's suggestion of a signing Parliament, to boost engagement in securing positive changes across Wales. We need to see progress, so I do hope that the Bill would also explicitly require the publication of BSL performance reviews.

I endorse all the comments made by the speakers previous to me today. I am pleased to be voting in favour of progress and this particular proposal, and I would ask all my Senedd colleagues to do the same. Thank you. Diolch.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

As the British Deaf Association has told us in their lobbying letter, Labour, Plaid and the Lib Dems have all committed to supporting a British Sign Language Act in their general election manifestos, so I hope that these proposals will get full support today. Like Janet, I learnt some basic British Sign Language when I first became an Assembly Member. I'm very sorry, I've already forgotten so much, but watching the signing at the Welsh Government's COVID press conferences makes me realise how important it is and it also makes me notice its absence at the UK briefings and I think that's worth me, as a Conservative, calling that out.

As I suggested in my short debate on modern foreign languages a couple of weeks ago, using another person's preferred or necessary language goes far further than a simple exchange of information; it makes you ask questions about others and questions about yourself. As Mike says, that's no different for British Sign Language either. And it's something that the new curriculum embraces, and I hope it's something that teachers will find exciting enough to want to teach, because it's something much bigger than perhaps we all expect. As the BDA says, BSL is not just a language, it's a gateway to learning, a path towards a sense of deaf identity and the means whereby deaf people survive and flourish in a hearing world, and that should surely interest us all. If twenty-first century schools are really about the twenty-first century, then deaf awareness should absolutely be built into every new design.

If the Welsh Government's been keen enough to look at Scotland for inspiration for minimum alcohol pricing and the new curriculum, I hope it'll do the same here. The Act that Mark has already mentioned has led to some positive improvements in service provision for BSL users in Scotland, with the Act upgrading BSL, as we heard, from a minority language to a language in its own right. But I think the key thing is that public services have started to pay attention. Glasgow City Council is creating a secondment opportunity for a deaf BSL user from another organisation to assist with their BSL work. Dundee City Council has a deaf person as an apprentice—the beginning of something really quite exciting. The Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament have created roles specifically tailored for deaf people. And 20 colleges and universities have already progressed well in terms of accessibility to their websites, application processes and student activities, as well as providing BSL training for staff and students, and there have been improvements in the other universities and colleges for interpreting provision as well. NHS Scotland, the health boards of Scotland, have done a lot of work to help implement the Act, although they still complain of a lack of deaf BSL representation and they're trying to deal with that.

So, it's quite right that there continue to be some challenges; a piece of legislation doesn't solve everything. The rural councils in Scotland are finding it difficult to access BSL interpreters, for example. But that need for BSL awareness and empowerment training, as well as collaboration across the public sector, is something that a piece of legislation can fix, and that then leads more widely, as a magnet, if you like, to more being done to empower deaf people through employment. So, it's not perfect, but at least they've started in Scotland, so we need to do that as well. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, Jane Hutt?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this important Member's legislative proposal and for the stimulating and important debate contributions from Members across the Chamber this afternoon? Also, I'll just say how important all of the purposes are of such a Bill that you put forward today in your proposal, Mark Isherwood, and I want to respond to all of those, as well as obviously noting your proposal.

I am very pleased to say that I was the Minister back in 2004, believe it or not, the health and social services Minister who enabled and supported the Welsh Government's stance that we would formally recognise British Sign Language as a language in its own right. That was back in 2004 and there are some Members here who'll recall that, who were there at the time. Actually, I do want to pay tribute to yourself, Ann Jones MS, as you were, with a former colleague, Karen Sinclair, very, very engaged at that time in making sure that the Welsh Government did respond. That was 2004—a long time ago—and at that time we were breaking new ground, and I always remember Karen Sinclair, as you reminded me this morning, Ann, speaking, as we did at the lectern, having a signer there on that occasion in 2004. So, just one of your legacies, Ann Jones, from your time here in this Senedd.

But it was important to make that statement back then in 2004, and since then we've supported training to increase the number of qualified interpreters in Wales, and ensured that all legislation, policies and programmes across Wales recognise the importance of accessible communications. I very much welcome the fact that we have a signer here today. Also, thank you, Suzy Davies, for acknowledging that, actually, awareness is raised by having a BSL interpreter at the Welsh Government COVID-19 press conferences. In fact, we were the first Government in the UK to do this, and it does make a clear statement, but it ensures that the language is accessible.

Of course, we know that more needs to be done. We have been exploring options to develop a national BSL charter for the delivery of services and to provide resources to deaf children, young people and their families, and that's come over very strongly in the debate and in Mark Isherwood's proposal. I recently agreed funding for the British Deaf Association to undertake an audit of our BSL policies and provision in the Welsh Government. The audit is crucial to show where we're going, what the gaps are and what we need to do. That work has just commenced. It will conclude in July of this year; it will result in a report; it will assess the Welsh Government's policies and services, and recommendations will come from that to inform an action plan and proposals for ongoing engagement with the deaf community. Whilst the proposal for the BSL Bill, as I said, is duly noted and recognised, we do need to review this at that stage, once the British Deaf Association's audit and recommendations on Welsh Government services and policies is complete.

In the Welsh Government, we have put in place a very good mechanism in which the views of our stakeholders are heard. Our disability equality forum, which I chair, covers membership from a wide range of stakeholders, including the Wales Council for Deaf People and the Royal National Institute for Deaf People. The forum provides an opportunity for all partners to advise and influence the Welsh Government on the key issues that affect disabled people in Wales, increasingly important during COVID-19, when the forum has met frequently, ensuring the voices of disabled people are heard.

We did set up, last June, the accessible communications group to overcome barriers and improve access to information during the COVID-19 pandemic. The outcome of the group's work is currently being finalised. A commitment is forthcoming from the Welsh Government to provide more information in a number of communication formats, including BSL.

As part of the BSL audit process, the British Deaf Association is arranging a number of events with the deaf community in Wales to ensure that deaf people have an opportunity to express their views and share their experiences of accessing services provided by the Welsh Government. We will ensure the involvement of as many deaf people as possible in the planning and action stages as part of our co-production values, which I know Mark Isherwood would welcome.

The Welsh Government is currently consulting on the Curriculum for Wales's BSL non-statutory guidance. As with other aspects of the Curriculum for Wales, this draft guidance has been developed through a process of co-construction. The guidance will be refined to reflect feedback from the consultation; it'll be published in autumn 2021 as part of the languages, literacy and communication area of learning and experience. The Curriculum for Wales will be rolled out, of course, as we know, from 2022.

Also, officials recently commissioned the Learning and Work Institute to undertake a round-table event in March 2021 to engage with the deaf community and wider stakeholders on the recommendations from the independent review of BSL provision for adults in Wales, and that independence is crucial so that we get this right. We'll focus on the demand for BSL, consideration of how provision is currently delivered, what improvements could be made, and where there are gaps in provision and access. That will, of course, inform further policy considerations for BSL provision for adults in Wales.

Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, we've got the BSL audit and BSL consultation engagement event, a strong basis to consider our BSL support services in Wales, how they might be improved and how skills may be enhanced right across Wales. Once the audit process is complete, we anticipate signing up to the British Deaf Association's BSL charter. As an organisation, this will allow us to lead by example and promote good practice, and, indeed, consider those opportunities that we have, as you've brought forward today, Mark Isherwood.

Could I just finally say that next week, of course, as we celebrate St David's Day, there will be a BSL choir showcasing Wales to the world? I hope you will take note of that as we celebrate St David's Day. Diolch yn fawr.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. No Member has indicated that they wish to make an intervention, therefore, I'll ask Mark Isherwood to briefly reply to the debate. Mark.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. Well, I thank Mike Hedges for his comments: 'The proximity of the election is no reason not to support this proposal; we need leadership to do something on behalf of the deaf community in Wales.' Dai Lloyd: 'There is a need for this legislation; we must safeguard the rights of a minority through the law.' Janet Finch-Saunders says, 'This legislation will help us create a better Wales, making services more accessible to people who rely on BSL in Wales.' Suzy Davies says that BSL is not just a language, but a sense of identity, and deaf awareness should be provided in every school. The Deputy Minister, Jane Hutt, as I've said in my speech, reminded us that in 2004 the Welsh Government recognised BSL as a language in its own right, but as D/deaf people across Wales have told me, although this was necessary, it is not sufficient.

Deafness is not an intellectual impairment, yet D/deaf learners generally have a lower educational attainment than hearing children. That's a disgrace. The Children's Commissioner for Wales has previously identified a lack of support available to ensure that family members can use BSL—a disgrace. As the British Deaf Association state,

'BSL is not just a language; it is also a gateway to learning, a path towards a sense of Deaf identity, and the means whereby Deaf people survive and flourish in a hearing world.'

Giving BSL full legal status in Wales would ensure that it has the same protection as the Welsh language. Existing legislation does not meet the needs of BSL users or the wider D/deaf community. As BDA Scotland said, in evidence received by the Scottish Parliament's Education and Culture Committee on the British Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015, the UK Equality Act 2010

'accords rights to individuals to protect them from discrimination but it does not protect or promote BSL as a language.'

The same applies to existing Welsh legislation. I urge all Members to support this motion accordingly.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see objections, therefore we'll vote at voting time.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: The Wales-wide nitrate vulnerable zone

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 7 on our agenda is the Welsh Conservatives debate on the Wales-wide nitrate vulnerable zone and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Minister, it is a sad reality that your draconian NVZ measures that you're introducing are now bringing your own Welsh Government's honesty and integrity into question. Indeed, at least eight times you have promised not to do anything whilst we are in the middle of this COVID pandemic. Responding to me in Plenary on 3 February, you claimed that the voluntary scheme you had worked with NFU Cymru to deliver had failed. That simply isn't true. In fact, the blue flag farming approach was not backed by Welsh Government when farmers actually applied for funding through the RDP sustainable management scheme.

Shockingly, it is my understanding that despite project results and water standards being shared in letters to you and the First Minister in March 2020, including recommendations for next steps and a response being issued by officials stating that detailed consideration will be given to the water standard, NFU Cymru have yet to receive a further reply. Despite industry organisations committing to the Wales land management forum sub-group on agricultural pollution and the group submitting a progress report to you with 45 recommendations in April 2018, as of earlier this month you had not responded or even met the expert group. Clearly, you have written off the voluntary approach far before giving it a proper chance.

Earlier this month, the First Minister claimed that we've seen no diminution in the rate of agricultural pollution. That again is not correct. You yourself have acknowledged that there has been progress over the last four years. NRW's executive director for evidence, policy and permitting had spoken of a steady decline in pollution incidents in the last two years, and a clear downward trend of 28 per cent has been observed over the last three years. In trying to justify these regulations, you have referred me to NRW's dairy project. You informed this Parliament that 50 per cent of the dairy farms visited are not compliant. I tabled a written question asking you to clarify what steps officials took to examine reasons for non-compliance. You responded on Monday stating that you will thoroughly analyse the results once the project is complete. I think you know where I'm going with this. You may recall also in committee this month that you told me that, and I quote,

'In relation to the costs around the agricultural pollution, as I said, there is a higher cost if we don't do anything.'

Again, you're wrong. Your own regulatory impact assessment estimates that the upfront capital costs of the NVZ could run to £360 million. That's £347 million more than the assistance you are actually offering, £99 million more than the latest total income from farming in Wales. In fact, according to the RIA, over 20 years, the total cost is over £1 billion to our agricultural sector. Why are you making farmers spend these ridiculous sums of money that they don't have, between now and 2040, for benefits worth £153 million? The costs are £950 million more than the actual value of the benefits. In fact, Griffiths's great big gap between cost and benefit could be even larger, as the explanatory memorandum states, and I quote:

'Due to the large range of potential environment costs associated with these pollutants and the variability of farm types and practices, there can be no certainty of the cost benefit ratio.'

Why do you claim that these regulations are proportionate? Why increase the number of holdings affected by NVZs to over 24,000, when huge swathes of Wales have seen zero incidents during the last decade? Why make a mockery of Brexit and devolution by choosing a European option when we should be looking to work with farmers to develop a voluntary Welsh solution? Why pursue an NVZ when a study by your beloved European Commission found that about half of European monitoring stations on nitrates showed no significant change, and a further 26.6 per cent presented increasing trends of nitrates? Why push Wales into an all-territory NVZ when Denmark and Ireland have applied for derogation?

For the sake of Welsh farming and, indeed, for our farmers and custodians of our countryside, we need to halt the progress of this. Minister, I do hold you in high regard, and I realise it is a large portfolio that has some difficulties. One incident of pollution is one too many. But I will say to you, in all honesty, and in all earnest: it is not above somebody to be able to say, 'I am listening to my farmers, I am listening to the people of Wales, I am listening to my elected Senedd colleagues.' Change your mind on this decision, Minister, and let's change that lack of trust now into respect. Thank you. Diolch.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

I have selected the amendment to the motion and I ask the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to formally move the amendment tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Formally.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Members will be aware that I tabled a motion to annul these regulations that will be debated and voted on next week, but it's good to have an opportunity to air some of the arguments as we prepare for that important vote. Of course, we will be supporting this motion today.

I oppose these regulations not because there is no water quality problem in some parts of Wales; I oppose these regulations because these regulations are not the right solution to tackle this problem. The regulations are disproportionate, they will have unintended consequences for the environment and, of course, they will undermine the viability of many Welsh farms. Why are they disproportionate? Well, Natural Resources Wales has recommended that 8 per cent of Wales should be placed within NVZs, targeting those areas of Wales where there are problems. But, of course, the Welsh Government has ignored that and has gone for a 100 per cent approach, even those areas that haven't seen any cases of agricultural pollution over the past decade. We know that the trend across Wales has fallen. When you look at the cases year on year over the past three years, they're down 28 per cent in that period. So, yes, target where targeting is needed, make regulations where you need to regulate, but don't place this unreasonable burden on every farm in Wales and every acre of Welsh land, even where it is not an issue that causes concern. This Government needs to be far more sophisticated and more appropriate in this place. Follow the data and follow the science—that's the Government's mantra when it comes to COVID. Well, do the same in this context.

There will be unintended consequences for our environment. Using the calendar to spread slurry is absurd, and the Minister herself acknowledged that she found it difficult to accept that that is the best approach in this area. Weeks before the time where this can't be done, and weeks after it has come to an end, there will be huge spikes in the nitrate levels in land and water as every farm in Wales clears their stores simultaneously. That will create pollution problems in areas where there are no pollution problems currently. The only option for many farms, particularly in those less-favoured areas, which, perhaps, keep 20 or 30 cattle, will be to get out of keeping cattle because of the cost, and that will mean that we will miss out on the environmental contribution made by grazing those cattle in terms of biodiversity and habitats, particularly in our upland areas. In losing those cattle, what you will see is farmers being forced to introduce more sheep on those lands, which will graze harder and damage those habitats. If you do keep 20 cattle, then the cost of paying for this infrastructure to store worth three of four months of slurry is going to be beyond those people's reach. The Government will say, 'Well, we're providing some £11 million to support', but that's laughable. That's less than £1,000 for every agricultural holding in Wales. I know about one farm that's been quoted £300,000 to put in place appropriate agriculture on the farm to meet the needs of these regulations. There's no way that farm could afford that investment, even if the Government were to contribute half the cost.

I will conclude with this—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I ask the Member to wind up, please?

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Okay. They are impractical regulations, they are regulations that can't be delivered without creating economic and environmental disruption to farms across Wales, and they will come into force a week before the original day that this Senedd is to come to an end. There's an election in a matter of weeks; don't rush these regulations through. Take a step back and reconsider.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I remind all Members that it's a 30-minute debate, and it's a three-minute contribution? Actually we've oversubscribed on the number of speakers, so some of you will be disappointed. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I think this is an important debate to ensure that people realise in the farming community that we are listening to them, but I think there has been some exaggeration of what the problem is as far as what we're asking of farmers. We're asking farmers not to pollute the land and not to pollute the rivers, and that is a perfectly rational and civilised ask. We can't go on having nearly 3,000 substantiated agriculture-related pollution incidents over the last 20 years. We've had more than three each week in the last three years. There's been loads of discussion going on between the Minister and representatives of farmers over the last five years, and the farming community has simply not come up with the solution that we need to see. We can't have zones where we have regulation and zones where there is no regulation. You wouldn't expect to see that when it came to a butcher's shop or a hospital—'We'll have a bit of regulation here but not there.' It seems to me that of course we need to listen to our farmers, but I just think that they have been made overanxious, and doing nothing is simply not an option.

Lord Deben, who chairs the Climate Change Committee, is coming to talk to the climate change committee here tomorrow, and he would be pretty shocked if we weren't doing all we needed to do to reduce our emissions. This is one of the ways in which we can do it. Money is available to help small farmers put in suitable places for storing the muck that they need to store. There's always been this phrase that there's money in muck, and I do not understand why it is not possible to make it into a marketable commodity in order to enrich the land and make it easier and better to grow crops on. This seems to me a really significant issue, and I think that the overspecialisation of farming with these mega dairy farms is really going to be a major source of the problem here. We need to ensure that the circular economy applies to farming, just as much as to plastic bottles.

So, I really do hope that we can find some resolution of the fine detail of this problem, but probably not in a 30-minute debate. We need to be looking at this in the climate change committee to see if there's anything here we can do to ensure that small farmers are not going to be put out of business by being compliant with the existing regulations, never mind anything that the Minister thinks we need to do to improve on them. We have to remember that this is all being done in the context of being warned that one third of all the fish and freshwater invertebrates in our fresh waters are due to be exterminated in the not-too-distant future, and, therefore, we have to act now to protect our environment, protect nature and ensure that we have sustainable farming that does not undermine other aspects of our economy.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, I do want to be clear on this matter, I think it is vital the Welsh Government bring forward proposals to tackle pollution in Wales, but I do not believe this is it. Recognising the need to protect our environment, at the very beginning of all of this, I supported the calls for there to be a mixed suite of methods for farmers to be able to use to reduce nitrate levels on farms. I recognised that a one-size-for-all solution would not be the most environmentally effective or financially stable way forward, and I find it extraordinary that you've taken the decision to introduce a Wales-wide nitrate vulnerable zone, despite the compelling evidence that came before you. I'd like to point out to the previous speaker we already have nitrate vulnerable zones in certain areas of Wales, my patch of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire being just such a one, you don't need to have it over the whole country.

Responses from farmers and land managers highlighted they'd be unable to afford the proposed all-Wales NVZ, and the vast majority of farmers actually use very little nitrate fertilisers. Seventy-three per cent of farms that produce slurry not have sufficient storage on their farms capable of meeting the proposed requirements of two and a half months' storage. Not only will the cost of this requirement put some farms out of business, even those who will decide they can achieve it will face issues with funding, with planning—try getting planning—and physically doing it in the short transition period. And remember, Minister, this places more pressure on already hard-pressed farmers who are dealing with a loss of cash due to COVID-19 and uncertainty over the post-Brexit plans.

Then there are the closed periods for spreading. As any farmer will tell you, you cannot farm by the calendar, you farm by the conditions. So, for example, here we are in late February and farmers could in theory be spreading slurry in very wet conditions, but could not have taken advantage of all the dry spells between 15 October and 15 January. The end result of this requirement will be very high risks of pollution before and after the closed period, something that's very common in Ireland.

I think the other major area I just want to briefly mention is the issue of no derogations for a limit of N produced on-farm. Farmers tell me this is the biggest issue with the regulations. The regulation stipulates that a farm cannot exceed 170 kg N N/h. In all the other home nations, a derogation lifting this figure to 250 kg is offered to farms of 80 per cent of the farm down to grass. It was in the draft regulations, but it's gone missing.

I could talk about the fact that I think that this is a quota on production per hectare and that it will have consequences on the price of land and consequences on the downstream business that comes out of farms. I'd like us to talk about the mental health issues, I'd like to talk about the difficulties of record keeping, but I think I just want to end with my utter frustration, because I've lobbied you and previous Ministers on actually tackling the sinners. You could have used a slingshot and got the guys who laugh, go to the bank, laugh at NRW, ignore NRW, pay their fines, trash their local communities and carry on regardless. Instead, you've used a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I do not believe this is the way forward, Minister, and I think you should reverse your decision.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I and my group shall be supporting the Conservative motion. The regulations implementing a blanket set of slurry regulations for the whole of the Welsh farming industry are totally disproportionate, both in cost and implementation. It appears yet again that the many are being punished for the actions of the few. It may also be the case that, even with the few, the majority of pollution accidents were unavoidable or simply, as in life in general, a matter of simple mistakes. Even these, as has been said before, have fallen by over 24 per cent over the last three years. The Welsh Government say they have set aside £22 million to help farmers to implement the changes needed, but even a cursory glance at the cost of the infrastructure needed shows the sum to be totally inadequate. It is estimated that the average cost of the construction of slurry storage facilities is around £80,000. Given there are 24,000 farms in Wales that might be affected by these regulations, we get a flavour of how inadequate the figure set aside is.

It is obvious that the farmers themselves will bear the brunt of the cost of implementation. The £80,000 figure only represents the initial cost for the necessary infrastructure. The Welsh Government's own cost analysis puts a figure for upfront capital costs of £360 million and ongoing annual costs in the region of £22 million, and this does not include the estimated one-off payment of £7.5 million planning consent fees. Given the farming industry is in the middle of a huge upheaval with regard to Brexit, not to mention the disruption caused by COVID, how does the Government expect farmers to cope with this huge extra expense? It is said that the banks are unwilling to make loans for the cost because they do not positively affect farm income.

We then have to ask ourselves: what are the benefits achieved over the next 20 years? Well, Welsh Government's own figures put this at around £300 million, set against a cost of over £800 million for implementation. Again, out of the 953 water catchment areas identified across Wales, just 113, 12 per cent, were failing through farming practices. Surely a far more proportionate and cost-effective way of managing the pollution problems would be to target these failing areas.

Should these draconian measures go forward, I believe we shall see many of our already impoverished farmers fail. One farmer has told me that his dairy herd will have to be halved if these measures go forward. The Minister says that there has been extensive consultation with the farming industry, but the farming industry tells us that almost all of their suggestions and input have been ignored. Given that British farmers are some of the most hardworking, innovative farmers in Europe and whose husbandry standards are among the highest in the world, we should be doing everything to help the industry, not creating obstacles to their survival. It appears the farmers are being made scapegoats on the Welsh Government's altar of environmental goals. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

The Welsh Government's decision to bring forward regulations that will see the whole of Wales designated as a nitrate vulnerable zone from 1 April has certainly caused an immense amount of frustration and anxiety for farmers in my constituency. The volume of e-mails I've received on this issue demonstrates just that. As someone from a farming family myself and as someone who has married into a dairy farming family, I'd like to think I'm acutely aware of the impact that these proposals will have not just on the financial viability of many farms but also on the mental health of farmers, who face these regulations during a global pandemic. Indeed, the very fact that the Welsh Government has had this issue hanging over the farming sector for several years now has caused a lot of anxiety, uncertainty and, indeed, frustration, and it's deeply disappointing that the Welsh Government now intend to introduce these regulations, especially when they promised not to do so during a pandemic. The excessive burden that these regulations will put on farmers will do nothing to attract people to farming, and therefore I believe that it will seriously damage the industry in the long term. Indeed, the many e-mails I've received tell me that, sadly, many farmers will be forced out of business because of these regulations.

Now, the Welsh Government tell us that the regulations are necessary to tackle water pollution, but the portal run by the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales, which was sent to me by the Members' Research Service, shows that, in the last year or so, only up to 15 per cent of pollution occurrences were caused by agricultural incidents. As Angela Burns said, these regulations are a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Now, the Welsh Government's approach also fails to take into account some of the good work already being done by farmers across Wales. For example, in my own constituency, the Wales catchment sensitive farming demonstration project is an example of a very successful voluntary scheme that was well received by farmers. There was also an offset scheme operated successfully by a group of First Milk farmers in the Cleddau catchment, led by local farmers Will Pritchard and Mike Smith, which also delivered a workable alternative delivering measurable reductions in nitrates. Therefore, it was deeply disappointing that the Welsh Government has not sought to build on this activity and develop a solution that works with our farming sector and not against it.

Now, as you would expect, local farmers in Pembrokeshire have raised several issues with the regulations, for example, the closed periods, as we've already heard, for spreading do not take into account the weather conditions that farmers have to work with, and the prolonged wet weather has an impact on the ability to undertake slurry spreading and storage. As has already been said, there are also concerns over the regulation that stipulates that farms in Wales can't exceed a certain amount of nitrogen per hectare, while in other parts of the UK, the limits are much more flexible. To put this into context, one business has made it clear that they will either have to find another 125 acres of land to support their current stock numbers or reduce their stock levels, which will have a significant impact on their output and therefore their business. This shows the very real impact that these regulations will have on farmers, and how some of them will now be forced to make huge decisions that will impact their livelihoods.

And the Welsh Government has committed to providing some financial assistance to farmers in order to help them comply with the regulations, but the £13 million offered by the Welsh Government does not sufficiently support the farming sector, and there's no mention in the Welsh Government's statements about the support that the Welsh Government should be making available to businesses that have had to reduce their stock levels because of these regulations. So, therefore, perhaps the Minister will take the opportunity today to spell out exactly what support will be offered to farmers who have had to reduce stock or accrue additional land to comply with these regulations.

And finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, I believe these regulations will harm the future of the sector in the long run, and they will do little to attract the younger generations into farming, and so the Welsh Government must consider all of these wider consequences and find an approach to tackling water pollution that is not only evidence based and proportionate but that ultimately works with the industry and does not destabilise its future. I therefore urge Members to support the Welsh Conservatives' motion.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can I now call the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. As a Government, we support the ambition of Welsh farmers to be the most climate and nature friendly in the world, building on a reputation for high animal welfare standards, high environmental standards and the high quality of the food they produce. This ambition is under threat because of the ecological and reputational damage caused by widespread pollution from poor agricultural practice.

A prosperous future for Welsh farming will involve capturing more domestic and international demand for truly sustainable produce. I believe our farmers have the expertise and determination to achieve this, and I believe the public want the very significant support we give to the farming sector on their behalf to be focused on achieving that sustainability for the rural economy and for Wales' natural heritage. I'm aware there's been a great deal of misinformation surrounding the Government's intentions in dealing with agricultural pollution, and that some have seen it as their role to create anxiety and uncertainty in farming communities, rather than to carefully scrutinise, to put forward constructive ideas, and to responsibly inform the public about the issues at hand. Jenny Rathbone referred to the exaggeration about asking farmers not to pollute. Shall we just remember, it is their statutory duty not to pollute? In that context, I welcome the opportunity for this Senedd debate so that we can seek to reach a consensus on the need for change and around the need to support the sector to implement existing good practice measures as a first step towards making both our farming sector and our natural environment more resilient.

Earlier this month, I made regulations before the Senedd to set in law a net-zero emissions target for Wales. I hope this ambition for an urgent and accelerating response to the climate emergency is shared by everyone in this Senedd. I do know that the ambition is strongly supported by Wales' farming unions, who have themselves set a net-zero goal for the sector. The scientific evidence is clear: the scale of the net-zero challenge means we cannot afford to put off until tomorrow the emissions reductions we can achieve today. It is not credible for opposition parties to say they support the net-zero goal if they are not willing to follow the scientific advice on the measures we need to take to meet it and the timescales to which we have to work, where there is no room for delays or reversals. All I've heard from Members of opposition parties this afternoon is a call for inaction; this Government is about action.

Implementing good practice in nutrient management means planning where, when and how to spread slurry in a way that minimises the losses to the environment that are otherwise driving our emissions up to unsustainable levels. The farming sector has a very broad contribution to make to providing the solutions we need to the climate and biodiversity emergencies. Raising the standards of nutrient management such that the good standard already met by many becomes the minimum standard is one of the most important and immediate actions they can take, and I hope the whole Senedd can agree these steps are now needed.

Sadly, it remains the case that, because of shortcomings in nutrient management in some parts of the farming sector, we still see far too many preventable agricultural pollution incidents. Even on the eve of this debate, I was alerted last night to a substantial slurry incident on a river and estuary in Pembrokeshire. The incident has not been self-reported and therefore investigations by NRW are under way. Janet Finch-Saunders said one incident is too many; well, let me tell you, over 100 every year for over 20 years is far too many. These incidents kill wildlife, they poison our air, our soil and our water. They increase greenhouse gas emissions, and they damage the good reputation of Welsh farming. I hope, therefore, all Members of the Senedd can agree with me and those in our farming communities and the wider public who say we have had enough of these incidents; we will no longer accept the poor practice that causes them. And I repeat what Janet Finch-Saunders said—one such incident is one too many.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I will now call Members who've indicated they wish to make an intervention of up to one minute. Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I just wanted to pick up on the assertion that the Welsh Government is actually providing sufficient funds for farmers to respond to these new requirements. I make it around £11.5 million that's being provided. According to the Government's own estimates, that would just about cover the needs of Anglesey alone, let alone the rest of Wales. The low-cost-scenario estimates from the Welsh Government make it £109 million required, the high cost is £360 million, and you're providing £11.5 million, I think. So, let's not believe what we heard from some Members in this debate—that the Government is providing the support required.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Can I now call on Russell George to reply to the debate?

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Minister talks about action; well, the farming community, Minister, want action from you. Now, the only area that I can agree that you spoke to this afternoon, Minister—and Jenny Rathbone—was that we all have a role in improving water quality. That's correct—all of us do, businesses and farmers included, and farmers accept that role. But any regulations have to be evidence based, proportionate and targeted, and the regulations that you have proposed and will be bringing forward next week are none of those things. Minister, it seems that you will bring forward these regulations next week to introduce a Wales-wide NVZ, and, in doing so, you have broken your commitment to Welsh farmers and this Senedd that you would not bring forward these regulations during the course of that pandemic, and I'm sure the First Minister and the health Minister will confirm to you that we are still in the middle of this pandemic.

Now, I heard the contributions from Jenny Rathbone. I'm astonished. She talks about exaggeration. She talks about not being able to introduce zones. That's why they're called NVZs. This is done all over Europe. I can't believe that contribution from Jenny Rathbone.

In regard to other Members, Janet Finch-Saunders and Llyr and others pointed out the devastating impact on farmers and the many businesses that will rely upon those farming businesses, the complex record keeping of regulations that will be subject to cross-compliance, inspection and the penalty, leaving little option but to resort to costly consultations that farming businesses simply cannot afford. As Janet Finch-Saunders and others pointed out, your own impact assessments talk about the upfront costs of £360 million to the industry, and then there's the evidence that shows that many catchments across Wales have incurred zero incidents of agricultural pollution over the last 10 years, and Llyr, of course, points correctly as well to the NRW evidence, which backs that up.

Over the past 48 hours, I've had hundreds of e-mails from farmers across my own constituency in Montgomeryshire, urging me to vote against the regulations next week. Minister, you've heard from opposition parties, you've heard from the farming unions, you've heard from the farming community, and your response is, 'I'm going to ignore and carry on', which is so disappointing. I met with—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can the Member come to a conclusion, please?

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I met with Montgomery Young Farmers last night, making many of the points, I think, that Paul Davies and Angela did—Angela Burns made—in terms of the health and safety implications of rushing in terms of managing that slurry and the timetable involved.

In coming to a conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, I urge you, Minister, to rethink about this. I'd urge Labour backbenchers to examine the evidence, examine how proportionate this is, examine whether the targeted approach is correct or not. And I would urge Dafydd Elis-Thomas as an independent Member of the Government to think very independently when he comes to vote next week, and I'd urge Kirsty Williams to listen—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Yes. The Minister—

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

—and support our motion—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The Member does need to close. Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see objections, therefore we will vote under the item in voting time.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Free school meals eligibility

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We'll now move on to item 8, which is the Plaid Cymru debate on free school meals eligibility. And I call on Siân Gwenllian to move the motion. Siân.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As a matter of principle, every child should receive free school meals. To get to that point, we need planning and to do so in a phased way. The first step is to start to include the 70,000 children living below the poverty line in Wales, and that is what our motion puts forward today. They are missing out at the moment, mainly because their parents are in low-paid employment. In supporting our motion, you would also be supporting the 6,000 children in Wales who don’t qualify for free school meals because their families have no recourse to public funds.

Today, therefore, we are calling on the Welsh Government to ensure that some of the fiscal resources that are as yet unallocated in the draft budget for 2021-22 are used in the final budget for 2021-22 in order to expand the free school meals eligibility criteria to include all children in families in receipt of universal credit or equivalent benefits or any child in a family with no recourse to public funds.

According to surveys by the Welsh Government itself, the cost of doing what we are calling for, the cost of expanding school meals to all children in families in receipt of universal credit, would be between £33 million and £101 million—the lowest figure if only one child in every family were to take advantage, and the highest if three were to do so. Now, it's clear that Wales will receive more funding from Westminster. Last week, there was an announcement on further Barnett consequentials of £650 million, which could be carried over into next year. This is in addition to the £350 million that the Government can also carry over into next year from this year. So, there is no excuse now for not expanding eligibility. The funding is available to be allocated for the purpose that we set out in our motion today.

In terms of the budgetary process, then today is the last chance for the Senedd to have a meaningful vote on the issue of extending free school meals. The final budget is expected next week; it’ll be published on 2 March, and discussed on 9 March. So, it is crucial that all Senedd Members make their views clear to Government by supporting our motion today so that the appropriate fiscal adaptations can be made.

It is truly disappointing to see that the Government has tabled a delete-all amendment to our motion, and rather notes that it is unacceptable in a modern society that children still go hungry. Well, I would agree. But an amendment simply noting that but refusing to do anything to resolve the issue is good for nothing for the poorest children who are missing out on free school meals. In addition to that, it's very disappointing to see the Government ignoring its own child poverty review. This report noted that expanding free school meals to a broader range of children and young people is the one step that would help most in tackling child poverty—the one thing—and yet again the Government continues to reject that, although the funds are available. It is disappointing and entirely unbelievable, if truth be told.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

The reality is that Wales provides fewer cooked free school meals to its children at the moment than any other nation within the UK. In Scotland and England, every child of school age, in the first three years of their education, is in receipt of free school meals, whatever the family income. In Northern Ireland, the earnings threshold for those in receipt of universal credit is set far higher, helping to support more working families. Providing a balanced, nutritious meal, locally sourced, would improve child health and educational attainment. A sufficient free school meal will enhance concentration throughout the day and will give children an opportunity to taste new foods. Expanding eligibility, and, in future, moving forward to introducing a universal approach, would reduce inequality related to education, health and other areas. It would be a means of supporting the foundational or circular economy that this Government is so determined to promote. It would create jobs locally, support farmers to take foods from farm to fork, supporting local businesses, creating local food chains, and contributing to reducing emissions. We would be doing all of this and providing nutritious food for Welsh children. I urge you to support our motion today.