Oral evidence: Work of the Secretary of State for Transport, HC 163

Oral evidence, 19 October 2022.

Witnesses

Rt Hon Anne-Marie Trevelyan MP, Dame Bernadette Kelly DCB and Gareth Davies CB.

Chair

This is the Transport Select Committee’s evidence session with the new Secretary of State for Transport. I ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, please.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I am Anne-Marie Trevelyan. As you say, I am the new Secretary of State for Transport. I have brought with me my two permanent secretaries to assist me, in case you have some very difficult questions which I am not yet fully on top of.

Chair

I am sure that won’t occur. Would they like to introduce themselves for the record?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Good morning, Chair. I am Bernadette Kelly. I am the old permanent secretary at the Department for Transport.

Gareth Davies

I am Gareth Davies. I guess I am the new permanent secretary at the Department for Transport.

Chair

Dame Bernadette, are you moving on?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

No, not unless you have some news for me. I am the first permanent secretary and head of department. Gareth is the second permanent secretary.

Chair

Got you. Also congratulations. I don’t think you were Dame Bernadette the last time you appeared before us.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I don’t think I was, no; thank you.

Chair

Our congratulations to you, and congratulations, Secretary of State, and welcome as well. We have a lot to get through. We intend to go through modes of transport and policy issues. I will start with priorities and portfolios. What will be your three key immediate priorities within the Department?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Thank you, Chair. If I may, I will set out how we have slightly reconfigured the Department. We have four Ministers and me now. I have tried to focus modally, with the overarching message to the whole Department and the team that there are two priorities in fact—growth and green—and that I want everybody to be looking at every piece of work that we are doing and every area with those two lenses, to the point that if they are not helping drive those two critical agendas we should be asking ourselves if they are at the top of our priority list. Under Kevin Foster’s rail portfolio, for instance, we have brought together everything that is rail. Where we had HS2 sitting separately, because obviously it had a whole life of its own as it started to come together, it is now very much in full build and is going to need to be part of the whole rail system. I have brought the whole of rail under Kevin’s auspices to ensure that we are thinking holistically, and indeed how we maximise both the growth that it will help the whole country to see and make sure that we harness the incredible work that the teams in HS2 are doing in developing technologies as they do this incredible piece of engineering at multiple levels. Baroness Vere has returned to oversight of aviation, for which she is a deep specialist having been there before, and active travel, which is of particular interest to her. Katherine Fletcher is looking across the roads brief, a really important piece of work because, of course, the Prime Minister has asked us, through the growth plan, to accelerate over 100 projects, the vast majority of which are roads. I want to have an absolute focus and laser eye on making sure that we can push all of those projects forward at the pace we need to. Lucy Frazer is overseeing everything that is the future of transport—all of those technologies—and, importantly, freight so that those connecting pieces work as well as they can together. I have taken personal oversight of maritime. Those of you who know me will know that it was my view, and has been for a while, that across Government I felt that we have not given the level of not only investment but time and expertise across Whitehall to the importance of maritime. Of course, DFT holds the maritime security responsibilities. I want to make sure not only that in DFT we are maximising the resource, and indeed the world leadership that we should be giving on that, but that we help Whitehall to embed the value and the resilience of maritime knowledge and skills. Across the piece, that is now the team. The key message for everyone is to look at everything we are doing through the growth and green lenses, and assure ourselves that that is how we are spending the taxpayers’ pound.

Chair

In terms of the theme growth and green, you said that there are certain things that do not fit within that agenda and therefore you do not prioritise those, so I guess it is a bit like scraping the barnacles off the boat. Are there any obvious areas where you think, “Actually, that doesn’t really feed into that agenda and therefore we don’t focus on that right now, although we might have been doing so before”?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Honestly, I think it is too early to say. I have set the Department that challenge, to ensure that we are thinking well, and also thinking about how we use investment funds. We have allocated funding. Could we be encouraging the private sector to do some of that investment work? It does not need to be the Department. Should there be closer collaboration than we have had before? It is making sure that we maximise our taxpayers’ money and that, in the growth projects that we are doing, we are working with all the stakeholders who will both have part of the output but also, potentially, part of the benefit. It is really challenging across the piece to ensure that we are thinking in that way. Honestly, a few weeks in, I would not give you a list yet, but I think there are some areas where we can really push and open out opportunities and think about where Government have to hold the pen and the cost envelope. We can encourage that wider participation. Indeed, where there isn’t market failure because, particularly in the decarbonisation space, things are moving more quickly, industry is moving quickly. Investment has turned green in a way that has surprised us all over the last two years. I think that has been hugely led by the work Alok Sharma has done as president of COP. There is more investment out there looking to support this sort of decarbonisation agenda. We can support and assist. We need to provide the regulation possibly more quickly than we have been to enable private investment to pick up and develop that. We have a lot of those in our portfolios. A lot of them belong to us; 27% of all our emissions sit under my responsibility to try to get rid of. There is a lot of opportunity, and that is an area that we are all very focused on, to make sure that we can make best use of the very substantial budget that DFT has in the most effective way.

Chair

Would we expect a shift in culture in terms of, “We must look to see if this is a space that the private sector can fulfil rather than it falling to the public sector?” We can take rail as an example where, over recent years, it has become a bit more tilted towards the public sector doing it. Are you going to challenge that ethos?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

It exists at Crossrail. The Elizabeth line has been put together through a really sophisticated model through Crossrail. It is not new to the Department. The costs we have had to incur to sustain rail, being the most expensive, and all our motor transport through covid have meant that the balance has been shifted. We want to get back to normal, ensuring that we are finding the right tools to get people back on to our various modes of mass transit, and thinking about how, as we invest and build the next generation, we make sure that we maximise private investment. Yes, in that sense it is a challenge. It is not a shock to the Department. They have done it before and it is something we look at, but we are encouraging more relationships that way so that we can think about some of these major projects, where there is clear value to the private sector in the long term and to industry. We can ensure that we are working alongside them and that the taxpayer is not the only one investing.

Chair

You reference that you are one Minister down.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We have four great Ministers. That’s good.

Chair

Indeed. It is all about getting more out of less. One of your Ministers shares her role as Minister for Women. Are you concerned that you have enough bandwidth and capacity? It is obviously a huge Department with a huge amount of spending. Even with one extra Minister, we heard complaints previously, “Oh, there’s only one Minister for aviation and maritime.” I know that is different now, but they have a lot to do.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes, there is a lot to do. I have every confidence that Katherine Fletcher is capable of doing both. She looks across the piece and obviously therefore has the diversity brief and issues for the DFT as well which helps cohere that portfolio position. When I was at International Trade, Mike Freer, my Exports Minister, was also part of the equalities team. We found that worked well and it actually added value to the Department as a whole to have a Minister who looked out. I think we have a great team, and, particularly with Kevin Foster holding the rail brief holistically, it makes for a rationalisation that I am comfortable will work well.

Chair

This Committee is not really the best placed to talk about diversity, as you can see. In a way, we are a good example of the problem. We are all male, despite the fact that application is open to all. Transport has a diversity problem that we exemplify. Do you think having the Women’s Minister inside Transport will also change the diversity emphasis within the Transport Department and the sector as well?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I hope it will continue to drive that. There is a lot of work within the sector. If you look at the HS2 teams and the work they are doing with their apprentices, it is nearly 50:50 in terms of those coming through. The breadth of skills that is required across transport, the construction of transport and the development of new ideas and technologies does not only require strength and the ability to carry rails. There is a much broader set of skillsets. There is much more to do. Yes, if one of you should decide to change Committees, we shall absolutely encourage ladies to come and take you all on. Absolutely. The challenge is an interesting one. I think I am the third or fourth female Secretary of State in Transport. I am not novel, but four out of five of us are women. Kevin is our token man, bless him. He does it very well. That is quite interesting. Perhaps you should ask the permanent secretary whether that feels different, whether that gives a different flavour. It is an interesting question. I don’t know. He is a very good token man and he does a cracking job.

Chair

You have now teed Dame Bernadette up.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Bernadette, what does it feel like?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

It is unusual to have so many women in our ministerial team, and that is great. Hopefully, it sends a strong signal to the sector that the most senior people they will be talking to in Government are going to be principally women, except if they are in the rail sector, in which case, obviously, they will be talking to Kevin Foster. Within the Department, Ministers over a period of time and I and senior colleagues have worked really hard with the sector on the whole question of improving diversity. I think the sector is massively seized of the fact that it needs to be more diverse. I know that if you talk to pretty much any senior leaders in the rail, aviation or maritime sectors they will see that this is a massive challenge for them as they look to build their future pipelines and their leaders of the future. There is a lot of good work that the sector is doing. There is a lot of progress that needs to happen on gender and other diversity. I am sure that having a female Secretary of State and a largely female ministerial team will add further impetus to that.

Chair

Perhaps I could move on to transport legislation. I will hand over to Karl as well. When your predecessor came before us a few months back, he was talking about the transport Bill that would be brought forward in the autumn. Are we likely to see a transport Bill in the current Session of Parliament?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

A big transport Bill, no. The challenges of things like the energy legislation we have to bring in, and various others, have meant that we have lost the opportunity to have that in this third Session. What we are continuing to pitch for will be what I would call a narrow Bill around future transport technologies and legislation around things like e-scooters. There is quite a broad mix of regulatory change that we need to bring in. That goes to my point about being able to help the private sector to get on and invest in those areas. That is what we are working on with No. 10 at the moment. The bigger piece around rail transformation, in particular, we will need to look at in the fourth Session. At the moment, we are looking at whether actually across the whole piece for transport there are a number of parts of it that do not require primary legislation and how we can intelligently use the time we have until we get into the second half of next year to start to implement the areas of transformation that we can do. It is very much one of Kevin’s key areas of focus to deconstruct the whole and think about where we can push on and give industry the confidence and the support of the DFT’s direction of travel, even if we cannot complete the whole overall primary legislative envelope in the next six months.

Chair

Just to summarise, we are unlikely to have any transport Bill in this Session.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Hopefully, some small piece of transport—

Chair

You think there might be a smaller one.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We hope so. We are pitching.

Chair

I won’t roam across the brief, but as we are talking about legislation—we are going to talk separately about GBR—we have had various assurances previously; for example, on pavement parking, yes, there will be legislation, and where legislation is needed for getting more charge points for zero emission vehicles it will be key, as well as more powers for the Civil Aviation Authority to protect passengers. Are we likely to see those in your slimmed-down Bill?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Exactly. Those are the sort of specific things that we are pitching to have in a narrow, new—whatever the name is. Have we come up with a name we are pitching it under? I don’t think so.

Gareth Davies

Not yet, no.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I think of it as a new transport regulations investment Bill, which would be a series of very specific areas of policy, exactly to your point. Just so that everyone knows this, pavement parking is a particular bugbear of mine, and indeed issues around e-scooters and bikes and shared pavement space are something I have personally always been very focused on. That will be at the heart of what we do.

Chair

We have a report from some years back where we made recommendations that you previously welcomed. You will find plenty of support with this Committee.

Mr Bradshaw

Secretary of State, could you give a little bit more of an explanation as to why the Bill has been squeezed out? We have already legislated for the energy stuff. Is it because of the U-turn that they have had to do and the time that is going to take up legislating for? What squeeze do you add from the legislative programme?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

No. There is a whole series of things when you are prioritising, and indeed knowing it is not only the Commons but the Lords, which has a huge schedule as well, we must make sure that it can flow through. That is why, rather than having a big Bill with everything in it, we know that we can make progress on some of the rail transformation stuff without that. If we can have a smaller Bill, we have a chance of getting that squeezed in before May.

Karl McCartney

Secretary of State, you have just let us know that the transport Bill has been canned. Maybe you might have some spare capacity in the Department potentially, as the Prime Minister mentioned yesterday, for all EU-retained law to be gone by the end of 2023. Your Department is responsible for 424 pieces of retained EU law. How do you plan to amend, repeal or replace that before 31 December 2023?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

It is a huge piece of work for the Department. As you say, we have 430; 55 of our total cohort have been repealed now, so there are only 375 left to go. That is good. We have an interesting mix. Quite a lot of it is international related and some is domestic. Quite a lot of it is around safety. We are not getting rid of it; we just need to put it into our own space, making sure that we think about where in the mix of existing law we want to maximise and give ourselves freedoms and where we do not. There are international safety regulations and so on. There is a lot of work to do. I do not know if you want to add anything, Bernadette. You are managing it.

Karl McCartney

There certainly is. Before we come to either of your permanent secretaries, do you have the specialists in the Department to deal with that sort of work? I do not know who has scientific instruments in their portfolio now, but the Department does not have an unblemished record when it comes to scientific instruments.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Lucy Frazer is overseeing the SI portfolio, if that is the right way to describe SIs. As a KC and former Law Officer, she is extremely precise and careful. I am very confident that she will provide—

Karl McCartney

You mentioned transport experts, but I am sure she will become one.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Indeed she will also be a transport expert. This is a huge piece of work for us. Gareth, do you want to update? We are very focused on the level of work that we have to do to deliver that.

Gareth Davies

What is absolutely clear to me is that it is not just a copy and paste exercise. As the Secretary of State said, 55 have already been repealed. We are now going through to understand which ones we feel will be broadly brought into UK law. Those are essentially the ones from international bodies: ICAO, the international aviation body, and the International Maritime Organisation. There are things around safety and standards that have been set globally, which originally came into UK law via the EU. Broadly, subject to Ministers’ views, we expect those to be brought in. It is things like regulations on carrying dangerous goods through international freight and trade. You would expect those, on the whole, to be brought in. Even that, though, is not just a simple copy and paste exercise because of the way in which EU law differs from UK law. You have to work your way through the references in the case. We are certainly scaling up, particularly on the legal and analytical side. You make a very good point around the scientific advice we will need on this. We recently appointed a new chief scientific adviser to the Department. She is able to draw on our scientific advisory council, which has over 20 distinguished members from a range of universities around the country. That is the way in which we will make sure that we can embed scientific advice. In terms of where the real opportunities come from this, it is essentially where EU law has been designed that is more fitting for the 27 than it is for us. The port services directive is probably the best example of that. It was essentially designed around transparency and financial reporting requirements. It was designed in the EU for a ports market that is, essentially, state owned. Ours obviously is predominantly private sector and very competitive, so the requirements, frankly, are not fit for purpose. The other big opportunity, I think, is around new technology. I am thinking how we can be nimble and agile around bringing in technology. The parallel with the vaccines is the obvious one, but if you look at the work around self-driving vehicles, and eVTOL, the new technology on aviation, if we can move at speed and adapt the regulations that we currently have on retained law for the UK, I think that is where the growth benefits will really come through.

Karl McCartney

That is all great to hear, but I am going to drag you back to the Department’s record on scientific instruments. Unfortunately, I think your colleagues who are involved in dealing with those have been under pressure and are going to continue to be under pressure. I would hate to see them having even more pressure put on them by the new priorities that are perhaps being set for the Department. What are you and the Secretary of State going to do about ensuring that you have the right people able to do the right job in what is, effectively, a very short timescale?

Gareth Davies

We are scaling up for this. We need to move significant numbers of people to work on this priority in the Department. It is not just going to be added to people’s day job. I have appointed a new project director to lead this piece of work, building from what we did through the Brexit process and working with our modal teams to ensure that they have the right capacity. There are large numbers of people so I would not like you to be left with the impression that we are just adding this on at the margins. A core part of the Department’s work and a big priority for us will be making sure that we have the capacity. I think your point around capability is exactly right.

Karl McCartney

Thank you. I am pleased to hear that, and I am sure they are too.

Chair

Let’s go into the sectors and the policy areas. It would be fitting, given that it is within your portfolio, Secretary of State, to start with maritime.

Gavin Newlands

I think we are all intrigued to see that you kept the maritime brief for yourself. It is such a huge sector, something like £115 billion or £116 billion in turnover for the UK each year. Having spoken to a few folk in the sector, they are pleased but mildly anxious. You have already touched on the fact that you are a Minister down. First, are you going to have the time to focus on maritime or are you going to get bogged down? Secondly, what are your priorities for maritime, looking forward?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I am very confident, as is Lucy Frazer. A lot of the work in the maritime space is looking at the decarbonisation challenges internationally. That is where I am very strongly of the view that the UK needs to continue to give the leadership that we showed at ICAO this year. That was instrumental in ensuring that we landed for the first time in aviation a net zero target by 2050 globally. We need to do the same in maritime. I think it requires very strong political leadership to achieve that. Lucy Frazer will work alongside me, as my deputy in some of the more technical areas. There is a constant stream of technical issues that need sorting out. We are double-hatted in that sense. On my priorities, as I say, one of them is really helping to ensure that we keep driving the leadership around decarbonisation. That, of course, is a huge opportunity for the UK. DFT is really the place in which we have both the responsibility and the opportunity to help to deliver that. When I put together the net zero strategy in BEIS last year, nearly a third, or 27%, of the emissions, were from DFT and indeed maritime and aviation. They were not included because at that point the world had not found a way to ask each country to take up any part of those two. DFT has an enormous responsibility in this space. Driving forward the technological changes, working alongside industry and private investment, and working with our international colleagues to find collaborative solutions is important. Maritime, by definition, is a point-to-point activity. We have to work with colleagues around the world to drive those changes. The US, Singapore and the Netherlands in particular are very keen to work with us on things like green shipping corridors. It is more than talking about it; it is the practicalities, ensuring that BEIS is driving forward in the regulatory space to build the production of new supplies. It is a real cross-Whitehall team effort. I genuinely believe it needs senior political leadership to keep pushing it on and to make sure that we are giving industry what they need. They want to go at pace. I think there is a really strong incentive in the maritime space for some of the very large players to make that leap. They reinvest every 30 years. In order to meet a 2050 challenge, their next turn of the wheel in terms of investment needs to be a big step change into cleaner fuels, and different ways of business autonomy. There is a whole series of opportunities that I genuinely believe the UK is already world leading on, and we need to maintain that. That is why I want to maintain a very strong focus from me directly.

Gavin Newlands

Thank you. I will come back to decarbonisation in a second. The Committee has not long finished an inquiry on Maritime 2050. We have seen some of that attempted leadership at IMO and across the water as well. Given your renewed emphasis, might we see a refresh on the Government’s Maritime 2050?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

That is a fair challenge. I am not sure if it is a refresh. I think it demonstrates how we are moving it forward, but I take the challenge. I will ponder how we might answer that question and demonstrate the progress that we are making.

Gavin Newlands

Maritime UK has been the umbrella body. I presume that you have seen its programme for Government that was published. It obviously has many asks, as all sectors do.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I would be disappointed in Mr Murray if he did not give me a long list of requests.

Gavin Newlands

Exactly; and asks of the Government. Obviously, a large part of this is on the challenges that you have spoken of yourself in terms of decarbonisation and pro-green investment. One of the things he spoke about was the Government trying to enable that pro-green investment. It is something we touched on with the previous ministerial team as well. How are you going to set about enabling that private investment? I will come on to public investment.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Around that space, I have had a chance to catch up with Maritime UK already, which was great. They were at our party conference, and I was able to spend some time with them there, and indeed to hear their list of asks, which was very helpful. The Government have two roles. One is obviously to support with matched funding to drive new sectoral investments. We have seen that particularly on the supply side and the production side of new fuels coming from BEIS. I think DFT will have responsibility there. The private sector is both responsible for driving the change—because it takes the profits—and keen to really drive the change at pace. Those who get the early mover advantages will see economic benefit from them, as well as of course meeting their decarbonisation targets and ensuring that their customers know that they can rely on those transport methods to meet their scope 2 and scope 3 questions to their own consumers. It is really important to do that. Our responsibility in large part, honestly, is creating the regulatory environment for them to be able to do that at pace. That is where there is huge support. Our ports are very keen to find the solutions. There is a whole load of chicken and egg in the whole net zero strategy world. We have to move forward iteratively together without the taxpayer picking up all the bill.

Gavin Newlands

You mentioned ports. I have an example on shore power and that area, where other countries in the EU are putting more money into the sector than we are. We all heard the Chancellor over the weekend. There is not a lot of money about. How concerned should the sector be about potential capital investment or assistance with decarbonisation, moving forward?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

The sector should continue to be very confident that the UK remains, and will remain, world leading in driving this forward. I was down in Portsmouth on Saturday talking to the team there on shore power and thinking about the practical logistics of creating new sources of power. They are as much municipal issues as practical ones, for Brittany Ferries, in their case, who are keen to bring in their electric ferries in 2024. This is a cross-government challenge to achieve at many levels. It is not only about money. Without a doubt, a lot of it is logistical challenge on which we need to drive forward, but the UK and this Government will continue to be absolutely at the forefront of that, working alongside industry to try to think through the right logical steps. That is one of the challenges with the massive industrial revolution that is net zero. Everyone—Government and private sector—makes investments all the time. It is a matter of making sure that we make the right ones in the right order to maximise the private sector’s investments.

Gavin Newlands

A net zero revolution at a time when we do not really have any money is not exactly ideal.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

But that is my point, Gavin. Businesses and Governments invest all the time. We have a £96 million investment programme. These investments are happening. What we need to ensure is that we think in a long-term way and understand, alongside the private sector, what they need first so that they can then make their next investment choice. There is lots of money on an ongoing basis because capital investment is a continuum.

Gavin Newlands

I am conscious of time, so my last point is this. Last week at Transport questions I asked about the P&O situation on people. There are two points. First, where are you with the nine-point plan? There was a lot of heat and noise at the time, but there doesn’t seem to have been a lot delivered. I appreciate that a lot of that is BEIS work as well, but a lot of it is cross-departmental. Where are you with the nine-point plan? Would you consider a people and skills workstream as part of the clean maritime plan, as asked for by the trade unions?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I will ask Gareth in a minute, if I may, to give you an update on where we are on the nine-point plan. A lot of progress has been made, but it is something where we have very much taken the bull by the horns and tried to shake down and get to how we can change that landscape permanently for the better. More widely, skills are absolutely critical not only in the transport sector, but where a huge amount of the UK’s construction spend goes every year. How we help build the pipeline of the multiplicity of skills that the construction and technical sectors need is critically important. Both with my former Ministry of Defence procurement and indeed my International Trade hat on, those are areas where I have seen again and again that we need a much stronger and joined-up skills focus as a country. It is a piece of work that we have set running to look at that. One of the things that I found fascinating through covid was the Oak Academy, which was set up to provide virtual support to schools. It was a really brilliant piece of work by the Department for Education. If all of your French teachers suddenly had covid, there was still an online French teacher that you could access and so on, across every subject. It was very clever. We are thinking about how we can harness that through our FE colleges right through to students doing PhDs in incredibly clever areas, and how we can join that up across the country. For instance, we can look at the fantastic companies that BAE Systems have set up, both in Govan and in Barrow, to feed their own long-term pipeline for those maritime shipbuilding projects. But what if you live in Coventry or Berwick and you want to work in that? How can you start your career when your local FE college is nowhere near those? In the modern world, how is it that we are not joining this up in a national virtual academy system, so that wherever the young people are—whether they want to be nuclear physicists in the future working at Hinkley Point or Sizewell C, or they want to be part of the maritime sector or port sector—how are we joining together the opportunity for young people to develop their skills? That is a piece of work that I have asked the Department to think about. I think that the DFT holds many of the opportunities to feed to those skills. We need a much greater national endeavour between our very extensive education establishments and the private sector. They need them, and we need to work together to make sure that they can get them.

Gavin Newlands

On the P&O nine-point plan, I think the trade unions are concerned that they might be getting pushed out of some of the cross-sector work because of ongoing disputes with other elements of the DFT.

Gareth Davies

That is certainly not the concern from my side. The main part of the nine-point plan was obviously the Seafarers’ Wages Bill, which is in the House of Lords and progressing well. In parallel with that, we have written to the ports to ask them to ensure that workers on ferries are getting paid the equivalent of the national minimum wage. You will remember that right at the start of this crisis the previous Secretary of State asked the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to review the safety of P&O vessels. They detained three vessels, Spirit of Britain, Pride of Kent and European Causeway. They have now completed all their investigations of RoPax vessels that call at UK ports. HMRC has completed its inquiry. There are areas which are still to be completed and which are work in progress at the moment. BEIS is coming forward shortly with a consultation on fire and rehire proposals. We will be shortly launching the seafarers’ charter, obviously in conjunction with industry. It will look particularly at rules around overtime and benefits, and that has to be done in partnership with industry. We also reviewed all Government contracts with P&O and cancelled the one ongoing contract. More broadly, because this is a global industry, the key thing we are looking to do is grow the UK flag. The more vessels that are on the UK flag, the more control and minimum standards we can ensure for workers on UK vessels. That is the heart of it, and that is what we have charged the Maritime and Coastguard Agency with.

Gavin Newlands

Have any ships come over to the UK flag since—

Gareth Davies

I don’t have the numbers. I can certainly come back to you with the numbers. I don’t have the numbers in front of me but certainly, over the last few years, the numbers on the flag have been increasing. There is a challenge with flagging, in that a race to the bottom is a risk in the industry. Some of the consolidation we have seen in the maritime industry, probably over the last five years, and the domination of the big three shipping lines is starting to change that dynamic. We are starting to see greater focus on quality rather than just on the minimum cost of carrying goods.

Gavin Newlands

As usual, time defeats us.

Chair

Indeed. I am conscious of time because it is marching on, and we have barely scratched the surface of the brief. Can we have shorter questions and answers? On Maritime 2050, we held an inquiry and visited the Port of Southampton. We will be sending you our recommendations. It was great to meet so many people in the industry. Let’s move to Great British Railways and rail operations.

Chris Loder

Good morning, Secretary of State. Good morning, Gareth and Bernadette; it is good to see you both again, and good to see you for the first time, Secretary of State. First of all, is it your intention to fully implement the plan for rail?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

As I said, because we cannot bring in this big, all-encompassing piece of legislation immediately, we are going to take the opportunity to break it down into its constituent parts and work out how we can drive forward some of that modernisation.

Chris Loder

I appreciate that you have to phase it, but is it your intention to fully implement that plan?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

What I want to make sure we do is fully implement the modernisation so that we have something that is genuinely fit for purpose. One of the challenges for Kevin in bringing the whole rail brief together, so that every component part is there, is to make sure that we have thought about it holistically, and indeed for the long term. As we have said many times, the passenger and the freight provider is at the heart of the service that we want to provide. We have the opportunity—sadly in a way because there is a pause, but it is the nature of legislation—to make sure that we are looking at that holistically and that with what we bring forward we have the customer at the heart of the whole framework. In doing that, we want to try to break down what we can do more quickly.

Chris Loder

Would it be fair to say that it would be wrong for us to expect the full plan to be implemented by early 2024, as I think an earlier Rail Minister suggested to the Committee?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

That is probably a fair call, realistically.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

In the absence of legislation to the timetable that we had been planning, it is very difficult for us to implement all of the changes necessary that require legislation to establish GBR.

Chris Loder

That is very helpful. So that I am clear, in order to fully implement the plan, you would require a transport Bill and legislation to do it. Can you tell us what you can deliver without the legislative—

Chair

With reference to that, Chris had an excellent exchange with somebody in the Department, who took over when the last Rail Minister was with us. He was explaining how you could actually deliver all of this creatively without the need for legislation. Perhaps you could wrap that in, Dame Bernadette.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I will try. Unfortunately, I was not there for that exchange, and I do not have it in front of me. I may just resend it in some parts. Clearly, there are key elements of structural change and the establishment of GBR that require legislation, including for example the formal transfer of franchising powers from the Government, from the DFT, to another entity. There clearly are some things that we cannot fully do structurally without legislation and without those powers.

Chris Loder

That is fine. So that we are all clear, what you are basically saying is that you will need legislation to change the franchising powers from the DFT to GBR.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I believe that is one of the critical things.

Chris Loder

I think you’re right as well. It is just to be clear.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

My recollection is that the legislation for GBR is relatively short. It is not very long, complicated legislation, but there is a lot of change we can achieve without legislation.

Chris Loder

Thank you. Secretary of State, you said we may have the opportunity for a much reduced transport Bill. Does that not take priority over some of the other things that you said in order to enable the real change in the railways that many of us believe we need?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I agree with you completely on that one. What we want to do is to ensure that we can do that, so that we have it fully legislated for in the way that we need to in the next Session. In effectively being asked to shunt ourselves six months’ backwards, we are not losing our ability to do that, but just moving it back a bit. What we have been very clear on, as I say, is that with the small but important regulatory things, which are literally stopping huge amounts of private investment that can go at pace in lots of new sectors, we want to get them out as quickly as possible. In prioritising, I have said that it is more urgent to move that than other sectors.

Chris Loder

Let’s assume for one moment that the necessary legislation is not able to go through in this Session in order to achieve that. In effect, unless the Department drastically changes its approach, we are therefore basically fixing the passenger rail industry, with the exception of open access, into a public sector specified operation. What are your thoughts and views at this time, assuming the GBR legislation does not go through, as to what we will do with the passenger railway? In my opinion, and in my experience of my local operator—my colleague is going to ask you about Avanti West Coast later—this is just not working. It is turning into a complete and utter disaster on lots of fronts. I don’t think it is acceptable for that to continue without real change. Therefore, if we are in the situation where we do not have the legislative enabler, how will you approach the passenger operation of railways in this country? Will it be more of what we have today, or will it be something quite different and exciting?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I see this as only a few months’ delay to being able to bring in the new overarching guiding mind, as we refer to it—the new holder of the keys. In the meantime, to your point about Avanti, we are applying a great deal of pressure, both support and demands, on them to improve the service provision. We are all agreed that the way the franchising model works at the moment is not delivering what it needs to, but we need to think closely, and obviously the challenge Kevin Foster has is to make sure that we do that. The hiatus will be short rather than long in moving to the new—

Chris Loder

At the moment we have no firm date in sight in this current Parliament as to whether or not—

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

In this Session, no. It will be in the next Session.

Chris Loder

Hopefully, post the King’s Speech.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes.

Chris Loder

That is good news; thank you. In the meantime, will you consider any revolutionary approaches to operation of the railways? Passenger timetables are specified by the Department for Transport. They are contracted and agreed by the Department for Transport. You, therefore, in effect, block capacity by your specification. Will you consider removing some of that specification to enable more open access across our entire network, which would encourage much greater private sector involvement in the railways? Clearly, at the moment, it appears to me that we are stuck in a rut where the taxpayer takes the full risk of the costs of the railway. Would you support that great idea to liberate the railways?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I love that—liberation of the railways. I will absolutely take that away and sit down with Kevin and discuss it. I am not yet fully conversant in the minutiae of those issues. That is where we are trying to get to. It is to make sure that we have both the passengers and the ability to allow the private sector to maximise the use of our infrastructure in a way that is passenger and consumer-focused.

Chris Loder

There is a real risk today that the Department ends up maintaining direct control over the railway through its specification. In my opinion, the Department is very relaxed on enforcing journey times. For example, what should be for me, from London Waterloo to my home station of Sherborne, two hours and 12 minutes is now two hours, 47 minutes. That is a combination of some short-term infrastructure issues and the train operator just pumping in buffer times to the timetable that the DFT accepts. It is therefore taking up capacity and preventing others from being part of the railway.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I take the challenge.

Chris Loder

That is wonderful. You will take that away, and maybe you could come back to us and let us know.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I might send you Kevin, who will be the deep expert by then.

Chris Loder

I am sure some of us will be very pleased to meet you and talk about that further as well.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Would you like me to say more about where we are on our train operations and contracting?

Chris Loder

I would be delighted.

Chair

I think we would, actually.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

You make a number of points about capacity, open access and performance and reliability. There is no question but that performance and reliability are not where we would like them to be at the moment. I do not agree with your assessment that the Department is consciously, through its National Rail contracts, blocking capacity.

Chris Loder

Could I therefore ask you—

Dame Bernadette Kelly

What we seek to do is to obviously optimise capacity on the railway—

Chris Loder

Could I therefore ask you—

Dame Bernadette Kelly

—for passengers and in the interests of passengers.

Chris Loder

Wonderful. Could you therefore tell me—

Chair

Can we just have one conversation at a time, please. It all gets picked up.

Chris Loder

Could I therefore ask you why the Department is not rigorously managing those journey times?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

As you know, what we do now is under our National Rail contracts, which are intended to be an interim commercial measure. Under the newly transformed railway in the longer term, we will have our passenger service contracts which we hope will free up, to some degree, the private sector innovation and input that we want to see in the railway. We recognise, since covid in particular, that we do not see that because of the huge impacts on revenues and passenger demand that covid has had. We now need to try to recover the system. What we have on the National Rail contracts is a series of contracts with clear performance metrics for operators, which we then expect to hold them to.

Chris Loder

But they are not being managed.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I dispute that, but I would need to give you more details.

Chris Loder

I would be delighted to meet you and—

Dame Bernadette Kelly

We will take that away.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Chair, we will take that away. We take the challenge.

Chair

You can write to us on that point. We need to move forward.

Chris Loder

I want to come back to you briefly if I may, Bernadette, on a couple of those points. Open access operators are reporting up to 140% return of their pre-covid market, yet many franchised operators are almost incentivised not to grow the market because of the very nature of the contract. It is one of the reasons why I was asking a bit earlier about your approach and what you do. One of the things that concerns me a lot is this. The last time we had the Rail Minister here with one of your colleagues, Conrad Bailey, I asked him very specifically about the future of passenger operating contracts. I asked him very specifically about one part of the network that I was aware was going to be contracted imminently. He told this Committee that he had no idea about it. The Minister was not aware. Yet, within a matter of weeks a new contract was fully signed up. That gives me a bit of concern that the Department is not rigorously ensuring taxpayer value for money; reference a number of the other concerns about tightly managing them. It relates to my earlier point to the Secretary of State that if we know open access operators, through their innovation and so on, are able to recover much more speedily because they are free to use their innovation and have access on the network, surely it would be better for us—both as a country and for the travelling passenger—to have that flexibility and innovation.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I think you are making quite a number of points. You are obviously a great advocate of open access operators and—

Chris Loder

Not necessarily. I have never worked for one. I have always worked for the franchised industry, but I have experienced—

Chair

Chris, can we hear the response to your question?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

What we are still working through, and have been working through actually on any legislative timetable, is the precise role that open access operators should have in a reformed railway. We recognise that they potentially have an important part to play in ensuring that passenger needs are met. As for current contracted operators, it is true that we are holding them firmly on costs. What we want to be able to transition to is a recovered market in which all operators are incentivised to grow revenue and meet passenger demands in the most effective ways possible.

Chris Loder

Is that not part of the problem though? You are holding them to costs. That is the real fundamental difficulty.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

We have, but we also have to recognise that through the pandemic it has cost many billions of taxpayers’ pounds in order to keep railway services running. It is important that, when we think about the railway going forward, the Government will want to consider both how we deliver for passengers and how we get a great deal for taxpayers.

Chris Loder

But you are specifying lower yielding routes and then frustrating the growth of high yielding routes.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I think it is a question of how we transition to a market that has recovered from the covid pandemic. We are still not there in terms of demand recovery and the performance levels we want to see. There are still challenges, but there is a plan under the rail reform plan—the plan for rail—to move to that more flexible, adaptive and passenger-facing railway.

Chris Loder

I would like to move to wider railway matters. Do we have any news as to when the rail network enhancements plan will be forthcoming?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I am conscious that this is the question of the outstanding publication of the rail network enhancements plan. I cannot give you a firm date on that. Clearly, one of the things we need to do at the moment within the Department is to recognise the growth plan and the challenges of acceleration that we are looking at across our portfolio of road and rail investments and think about how we ensure that is reflected in the RNEP. I hope that we are setting out in many areas of the RNEP some plans for how we are proceeding with those projects. I assure you that, with the challenge of acceleration now ringing in our ears in the Department, we are looking hard at how we can make sure those rail investments are being delivered.

Chris Loder

Secretary of State, I want to talk about industrial action next, if I may. Could you tell us how your approach will differ from your predecessor in managing some of these difficult industrial relations matters?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

There are a number of things. Obviously, the negotiations are not with the DFT. They are between Network Rail, the operators and the unions. I have been very clear; in fact on the second day that I arrived, I asked all union leaders who had a stake in fresh policies to come in and see me for a cup of tea. They have now all been in to see me for a cup of tea. It has been really useful for me to understand where they are coming from and what the important issues are for them and for their union members. They are an important part of the whole. I am a respecter and supporter of unions that do a good job for their members, but not to the detriment of those they serve. We have had some very frank and interesting conversations. My door continues to be open. I have said to them that I hope to meet them on a regular basis to hear how things are from their perspective. I need all of them to work together with the financial envelope and modernisation requirements that we need to deliver for the railways and which Network Rail and the train operators are negotiating and need to deliver for us. There is a financial envelope within which they can work, but the reality is—as the permanent secretary says—that we spent £16 billion through covid on keeping it all moving. That is real taxpayers’ money that has to be funded. Everyone needs to help us to grow the revenues again, and that involves the railways running as many of them as we can get on the lines—to your earlier point. I have been very clear that I expect everyone to get round the table and to find a way through which works. It is always interesting when you sit down with an open book and have a “Tell me what’s bothering you” conversation. One of the areas of real concern is the issue of ticket offices. I have very clearly committed to do a full review of all ticket offices. I do not expect that every single one will be closed as a result. I give the assurance that I am personally going to oversee that and think very clearly about what the right solution is for how we use that resource at stations. When only 12% of tickets are bought at a ticket office, we cannot say that we must forever have banks of 20 ticket offices in every major area. This is not logical or rational. One of the areas that has concerned me is around the accessibility for all agenda. We must make sure that the workers at stations are able, as part of their normal workload, to be either behind the glass sorting out tickets—the issue of complex ticketing may well require that support—or fundamentally supporting people on the platform and ensuring that that wider piece works. At my own little station, it is a one man or one lady team, depending on which shift, and they do everything. They are the everyman and woman. They do the whole shebang for the station. To lose them would be genuinely impossible. To suggest that that ticket office should close fails to understand the dynamic of a very small rural station. Birmingham New Street is a whole different beast. Every one of them needs to be looked at properly, so I have committed to do a full consultation and reach a conclusion on what I expect to be the next generation of using those station workers most effectively. I hope that has given some reassurance that, although I am seriously demanding modernisation, I also understand the realities.

Chris Loder

When will that consultation commence?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We are just trying to get the ducks in a row. I will offer you “imminently”. That is probably the best I can give you.

Chris Loder

In respect of the proposed legislation on minimum service levels, you foresee that coming forward very shortly, I assume. Is that correct?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We’ll go with “imminently” for that as well.

Chris Loder

Do you think that is likely to trigger further industrial difficulty?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

The unions are all still running mandates within which they can call industrial action. We saw some more dates being presented for November. I do not think we are at the end of the industrial action, but I hope that, as the various people around the tables get together, they will start to see a way forward that is realistic for all. The reality is that the energy price guarantee has assured everyone, not just those who work for the railways, of protection from some of the largest energy spikes. All of us understand the economics of not allowing wage inflation to run away with us because that has a very long tail to it. The reality is that within the rail sector we have to maintain wage restraint because we have already spent £16 billion just keeping it going. The Treasury, notwithstanding the present crisis, is not going to sustain that sort of figure. It has to be a realistic pay landing. I hope that that will be possible in the months ahead. I will be disappointed if we continue to see that sort of industrial action. Indeed bringing in the MSL legislation will be a tool available if there is a total inability to move forward between the various parties, to ensure, as it says on the tin, minimum service levels, so that the passenger, the customer, can continue to get about. It is not acceptable to stop children getting to education or people getting to work. All of those areas draining the economy of its potential because of the need for rail to move people around is not acceptable. We need to find a compromise and a balanced solution which everyone can live with so that we can get on with exactly the point on growing that revenue again. The more revenue you grow by people getting back on the train, the more money there is for pay rises in the future.

Chair

Members, I am very conscious of the time. We need to have short questions. We will interrupt the Secretary of State if we believe that the answers are longer than you need. Over to Christian Wakeford, continuing on rail operations.

Christian Wakeford

Thank you, Chair, and Secretary of State. I am going to ask predominantly about Avanti and the west coast main line. Given its recent extremely poor performance of reduced timetable and increased cancellations, including very short notice cancellations, with the number of trains themselves running behind schedule and late, even the former Parliamentary Under-Secretary described it as completely unacceptable. Baroness Vere called it terrible. Why was the contract renewed?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I agree with all those descriptions. It is incumbent on everyone to make progress. The short-term extension will allow the Avanti side of the business to roll out its recovery plan and to start to deliver a reliable timetable again. Interestingly, at the weekend two colleagues told me they were able to book tickets for the first time in a long time. Looking forward, that gave me some small hope. The restoration of services has begun on the morning shift. They are now operating seven trains between Manchester and London, and six trains between Birmingham and London. That is their pre-covid offer, so we are watching very closely to see that that is delivered. From December, they have committed that there will be 264 daily train services on weekdays, which is a big step up. There are about 180 at the moment. It is a big shift. There will be more than the 245 services a day offered, which was before the cessation of drivers volunteering to work rest days. They have a plan. We are giving them six months to get it into action. It is a short window. There was an opportunity to make it longer, and I said no. It seemed to me that six months was plenty of time either to prove they can run it, or indeed to no longer be allowed to run it. I am genuinely hopeful that they are getting to grips with it and moving forward. That is where we are. We are literally monitoring it on a weekly basis.

Christian Wakeford

As a regular west coast main line user, unfortunately I do not share your hope but I wish to be proven wrong on this one. Given the extension, can you confirm whether or not the management fee that Avanti was handed by taxpayers was lowered before the contract extension? If not, why not?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

That is a technical question.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I am sure that there is a management fee still associated with the extension. Normally, how these management fees are constructed is that there is an underlying fee and then a performance-related fee element. I’m afraid I cannot give you the details. I think we regularly update the Committee on exact payment of these management fees and I will be happy to do so at the appropriate time. Yes, there will be a degree of fee associated with it.

Christian Wakeford

If the management fee wasn’t reduced for the extension, does it not sound like rewarding failure?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I think what will happen is that the performance element will obviously be impacted by performance. That is what it is there for. That is how we will be treating the management fee.

Christian Wakeford

Considering the performance, or general lack of performance, do you think they should be getting any of the performance level? I would argue that most people who have had to use the west coast main line would say that they should not.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I certainly think there should be a penalty for poor performance, and our management fees are constructed to ensure that happens. Equally, it would be quite difficult to have a private sector operator running services for absolutely no cost at all. We have been bearing down hard on management fees in general. The absolute maximum payable for 2021-22 to all operators is £142 million. That is less than the £154 million paid in the previous year. What we are trying to do, and are doing, is taking a very rigorous view of what an acceptable management fee is. We will do that in this case as well, but I cannot give you the details of the precise amount because I don’t have that information to hand.

Christian Wakeford

Considering when the contract renewal came up, several of the performance categories would be operational performance; customer experience; and acting as a good and efficient operator. Would you say that they have met any of those criteria?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Again, we assess the performance against the contractual arrangements. That will certainly be happening. We will absolutely be holding Avanti West Coast to their contractual commitments. We will only reward the level of performance that those permit.

Christian Wakeford

I am trying to be brief, Chair. My final question on Avanti is, what are they proposing to use with regard to force majeure as part of their contract?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

There is a discussion going on with the Department on the question of force majeure and what the appropriate arrangements are. I cannot say more than that at this stage. It is an unresolved issue under discussion.

Christian Wakeford

I would argue that the issues that they are facing are not outside their control. No other operator seems to be struggling as much as they do. I think they may be trying to stretch the term force majeure to the extreme.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

We know that there has been a quite surprising and significant reduction in the number of drivers who are prepared to do rest-day working. That clearly has impacted on performance.

Chair

We also seem to know that they had fewer drivers to start with, and therefore they were more susceptible.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

That is also correct and, I think, a key part of the performance recovery plan. It is something we have absolutely been focusing on and holding them to account for. The ORR has been looking very closely at what they are doing to make sure that their driver numbers are where they should be to sustain acceptable performance. That is a very fair point.

Christian Wakeford

Their recovery plan needs a recovery, Chair.

Chair

Thank you, Christian. We are going to talk about major rail projects and then we will move off rail because there are other modes of transport.

Robert Largan

Good morning to the witnesses. Congratulations on your new role, Secretary of State. I will start with Northern Powerhouse Rail. As a Committee, we asked for a new direction in our recent report. That has been indicated by the Government. Could you detail for us the work that the Department is doing to revise the plans for Northern Powerhouse Rail? What sort of timescale can we expect?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

The Prime Minister’s renewed commitment to that is very strong and very welcome as far as I am concerned, speaking as a northern MP. It is one that Kevin Foster is now charged with looking at, again thinking holistically. That is the challenge I have set to make sure that, as we make these investments, we do them in the most effective way. The map is there. We all understand it. What I want to make sure we do is get that in the right order—to my earlier point—so that we can maximise the value and indeed the communities that will benefit most quickly from those new investments, and ensure that industry knows what we are doing so that there is a clear, long-term investment picture. We are in the throes of that, trying to make sure that we map out the best answer to the Prime Minister’s question so that we can move that forwards. I suggest that in a few weeks Kevin Foster may be in a good place to be able to give you a clearer picture.

Robert Largan

Does the revision work also include looking at the Prime Minister’s commitment to a new station at Bradford?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We are looking at the piece across the whole so that, as I say, we can make sure we are making best use of both the taxpayers’ pound and indeed, to my earlier point, how we can work alongside the private sector as well.

Robert Largan

Moving to the other very large project, HS2, are the Government looking again at doing the eastern leg all the way to Leeds? Is that also being looked at as part of this?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We are very focused at the moment on making sure that the spades in the ground are going at pace and that we are keeping them firmly to cost. It is a huge project, as you all know, probably almost better than I do by now; we have 300 sites and nearly 28,000 people busy right now building. This is massive. It is critically important that we get it done on cost and on schedule. The focus there is enormous. As we have proven on 2A and 2B, we continue to look holistically. One of the challenges I have set is that we must make sure that we are genuinely thinking holistically. While it is a high-speed line, it is part of the whole train system. Again, that is the challenge: Minister Foster has to make sure both that we invest at pace and that we maximise the opportunities to open up right across the north to get the greatest GVA.

Robert Largan

To be clear, the Government remain completely committed to HS2, and HS2 going 2A, 2B all the way to Manchester.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes.

Robert Largan

Very good. It was reported this morning that inflation has crept up to over 10%. Given the inflationary pressures and a 15% cost efficiency target for the TransPennine route upgrade, will Network Rail be able to meet those targets, given the inflationary pressures and the rising costs?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I will ask Bernadette to give you more detail because this is very much at the top of her in-tray. We are acutely conscious of it. HS2 has its own relationship with the Treasury in terms of inflation, but there are absolutely inflationary pressures which we can see. We are working at pace alongside the Treasury to work out how we do that. Alongside that cost management piece, and continuing on my point, we can honestly say that we are doing all we can on the cost side, and the Treasury’s responsibility is supporting the inflation challenge. As ever, this is a shared endeavour, but we want to make sure that we do it right. Thanks to the energy price guarantee, we will see a deflationary pressure coming from the energy costs in the months ahead, but obviously this is a spike that is having an impact now. Bernadette, do you want to pick up on some of the detail because you are very closely observing this?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Indeed. I have spent lots of time thinking about this. Obviously, we are facing inflationary pressures across our capital investment portfolio, just as every part of the economy is facing inflationary pressures. We need to think about how to manage those. As the Secretary of State has already alluded to, HS2 is priced in 2019 prices, in large part in recognition of the fact that for a project of that scale and duration you cannot anticipate, and therefore cost in, inflationary pressures. We are working through that and what it means in practice now with the Treasury. We are having the same conversations about the Network Rail portfolio and the National Highways portfolio, again as you would expect. Network Rail and National Highways do not have the same arrangements. We are having conversations with them about portfolio management and the steps they can take to reduce costs and respond to the inflationary pressures. This is unquestionably very difficult. It is something we will need to reflect on and consider in terms of the Government’s mid-term fiscal plan, while at the same time meeting the challenge that the Government have clearly set to drive forward the delivery of these projects in the interests of growing our economy. It is quite a challenging balancing act. We are going to have to work that through in close dialogue with our delivery partners and the Treasury over the weeks and months ahead.

Robert Largan

In the interests of time, Chair, back to you.

Chair

Another couple of members want to come in: Grahame Morris and Greg Smith.

Grahame Morris

Good morning, Secretary of State and colleagues, and congratulations, Secretary of State. With both of us representing a north-east constituency, you might guess the nature of my question. It follows on from the Prime Minister’s statement about promising to deliver Northern Powerhouse Rail in full, and then the Chancellor earlier this week not exactly doing a U-turn but slightly equivocating. I want to press you to make a commitment that in the negotiations that are going to take place on the forthcoming fiscal event you are going to lobby as hard as you can to ensure there will be no cuts to Northern Powerhouse Rail. The Chair has very kindly written to Kevin Foster indicating our specific concerns about the Leamside line. You, as much as anyone, Secretary of State, know about the issues because we have been on a train that broke down, haven’t we?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We have.

Grahame Morris

There is a need to improve the infrastructure between Leeds and Newcastle. The Committee has visited Bradford, Sheffield and Leeds, and seen how important it is, if we are to deliver levelling up in the integrated rail plan, that that investment takes place “at pace”, to use your term.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I can give the absolute assurance that I will work as hard as I can. It is very clear to everybody that they have a north-east MP as their Secretary of State and that my commitment to ensuring that, while investment everywhere is important, bringing up the long-term lack of investment in many parts of the north is something that I am absolutely focused on.

Chair

An ally in the north-east.

Greg Smith

Good morning, Secretary of State, Dame Bernadette and Gareth. Notwithstanding the answer you gave Rob Largan a couple of moments ago, it is no surprise I am sure to colleagues on the Committee—just as it would have been no surprise to your predecessor—where I am going to go on this around High Speed 2. The 2019 prices were roughly £136 billion for the project as described in the integrated rail plan. The Office for National Statistics costed today’s prices for the project, probably before the 10.1% inflation was announced, at £155.52 billion. Data that was collected and that I believe you, Dame Bernadette, gave the Public Accounts Committee suggests that approximately £15 billion has been spent to date. If the land was sold that has already been taken, according to Lord Berkeley in the other place, it would recoup £8 billion, which would produce a taxpayer saving of £147 billion were the project not to proceed. That would be £147 billion that could either go some way to relieving the covid debt that the Chancellor is rightly focused on paying down and/or delivering some of the smaller projects and packages, such as the station at Bradford that the Prime Minister has committed to. Why are we still carrying on with HS2?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

In a moment I will allow Bernadette to pick you up on the specific numbers. HS2 is the largest infrastructure project in Europe. It is going to provide us with a level of capacity. Many of us have often said that the name does not give justification for what it is doing, which is not just building incredible, modern, high-speed rail, but providing huge new capacity for our rail systems. That is really important, and for that reason we want to continue to invest in it and roll it out. It is also going to be built over a long period of time. It is not an annual figure. There is a very long period of time over which that figure is spent. I absolutely agree with you that, as the build is now making good progress, we can see what land use we have acquired and start to think about where we can release land that we know we will not need. That is an important issue. It is something that government is often too slow to do across infrastructure projects. It is something that I have asked the team to look at to make sure we are very cognisant of that investment flow so that we are not holding funds where we do not need to. Without a doubt, this investment and how it links and brings inward investment around it is hugely important, both to the growth agenda and indeed to growing opportunities. The transformation and the inward investment already coming into Birmingham are genuinely phenomenal. That is because of that new train coming in. We should not underestimate. We will need to continue to assess and reassess just how good that multiplier effect of building a new train is. It is the same point exactly, as you say, as renewing a railway. The Northumberland line is opening up travel to work routes, which, for relatively small cost, will genuinely afford the opportunity for those areas to regenerate and see inward investment. This is “Build it and they will come”. They do come; investment comes and it offers huge opportunities. That is why HS2 is absolutely critical to help with capacity and to draw inward investment into those northern cities, so that we are growing and there are real reasons to invest in the north and it does not always come back to the south-east.

Greg Smith

I know that you want to bring Dame Bernadette in, but my point was that, no matter what way we look at it, there is a very large bill to the taxpayer, coupled with the circumstances we find ourselves in, largely from global pressures. The Chancellor’s statement the other day clearly means that there is a squeeze coming. Therefore, in order to deliver the smaller-scale projects that really improve people’s daily lives, such as the Northumberland line and perhaps East-West Rail in my own constituency, although I equally have 19 miles of HS2 which makes—

Chair

Greg, I am going to have to ask you to put the question please, before Ben explodes. We need to put questions, not preambles, not statements and not opinions. Questions.

Greg Smith

Is there not a risk, with a massive public sector spending squeeze, that HS2 takes all the money and none of the other projects that have been highlighted happen?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

No, I do not think that is right. That is where we balance our budget, and a proportion of our capital budget is HS2, year in, year out. A proportion is around those small, if you like, quick-win deliverables that can shift the dial in a small community. We do both, and we can continue to do both. There was very strong oversight of the HS2 spend. As I say, I think your point around land is an important one which we are looking at. I do not know if Bernadette wants to pick up on those real—

Chair

Very briefly, because we have spent so much time on rail.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I would like to put on record that I do not recognise at all the figures that you quote around the cost of HS2, Mr Smith. We have a funding envelope for HS2 phase 1 of just under £45 billion. There is an upper range cost estimate for 2A of just over £7 billion, and an upper range cost estimate for the western leg of around £19 billion. I think they get us to about half the figure you are quoting, so I am genuinely puzzled as to where those numbers come from. They do not correlate to my understanding or knowledge of the figures. In terms of what has been spent to date, Kevin Foster and Ministers will be publishing a six-monthly update to Parliament, as you know, and, as is our usual fashion, very soon. I think they are contracted and our spend to date is significantly above the £15 billion you quote as well. The costs of HS2 were part of the integrated rail plan. In that sense, they are costed into the capital plans that the Government have set out. I observe that in other comments from your colleagues they are seeking additions to that plan, but they are costed into the £96 billion.

Greg Smith

I am happy to write with where I sourced all of that to you on another date.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I am aware that there are lots of interesting figures around.

Greg Smith

This is my last question. You mentioned in your opening remarks at the start of this session that your priorities are growth and green. Looking at the green bit, does that mean East-West Rail is now not going to launch with entirely diesel rolling stock as is currently the plan?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We have just started to have a look at East-West Rail. It has been a busy few weeks. That is now moving its way to the top of the in-tray. I want to make sure that we are thinking exactly to the point about how we take these opportunities to drive forward decarbonisation around rail alongside the resilience that we want for our rail rolling stock systems. That is very much at the top of my agenda and I will come back to you, if I may.

Greg Smith

Thank you.

Chair

We are all guilty of what I just mentioned, but if we can just not do it we will get through this faster. To summarise the evidence on GBR, the plan remains the chosen plan in terms of the Williams review.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes.

Chair

It is a generalisation. There will not be time to legislate with GBR in mind before May. There are still plans to legislate for GBR after May. In the meantime, without legislation, you will look at ways around the legislation, if I can call it that. A good example is that franchising powers remain with the Secretary of State, but perhaps the GBR team make the recommendation and then you can carry out the formal part.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

For instance, yes.

Chair

Yes. Good. The last bit on GBR is that there have been concerns that they end up being the retailer of all the tickets and squeeze out the private sector. We have heard from Trainline. Are you going to look at narrowing the role of GBR so that they do not eat into the private sector space?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I am going to be making sure that it is absolutely focused on the customer, and that what we are trying to build is a railway system and delivery of all those services that is focused on the customer. I believe, as you know, that the private sector has a great deal to offer in order to deliver that. We need to find the right frameworks to support all of that.

Chair

Super. Other modes of transport are available.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Indeed they are.

Chair

Let’s go to Ben Bradshaw on some of those.

Mr Bradshaw

In the absence of a transport Bill, and given that we are now lagging years behind every other developed country, when can we hope for the regulation of e-scooters?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

That is at the top of my list for the narrower future of transport Bill.

Mr Bradshaw

In this Session.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes. That is what we are pitching for. We hope, as ever, with PBL; you know as well as I do that you have to keep pushing it.

Mr Bradshaw

The same question on the menace of pavement parking, which again has been around for years.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Again, as I said earlier, that is an area which I consider is really important to get right. As we see more of things like e-scooters, we must make sure that multimodal crossover with pavements is something we get right. That is what I have asked the team to think about in a streamlined Bill, and what we should be bringing forward to ensure that we can really demonstrate clearly through legislation how that is managed.

Mr Bradshaw

When can we expect the Government to respond to the consultation which closed two years ago?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Interesting. Noted.

Chair

They keep extending the consultation.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Do they? Okay, I will pick that up.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

We will respond.

Mr Bradshaw

On pavement parking it closed two years ago.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I will pick that up. Thank you, Ben.

Mr Bradshaw

It closed in November 2020. We have been waiting for two years for your Department to respond to this consultation, which is a matter of major public interest for all of our constituents.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I will pick that up. Maybe it is just as well it has not, because I have very strong views on the subject so that is a good thing.

Mr Bradshaw

Excellent. Strong views in favour of doing something or not?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes, doing something.

Chair

That was the way the consultation was tilted. The Government were looking to do this. It almost feels like everything is there apart from the legislation.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We will dig it out of said cupboard.

Mr Bradshaw

Green and growth are your priorities. Nothing will deliver more for you than active travel on this agenda in your Department, let me suggest. We were pleased to hear you last week confirm that you are still committed to £3.8 billion, but things have been changing very quickly since then, as you know, with the new Chancellor. Is that still a commitment?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

The commitment to active travel is absolutely clear, as Lucy set out in the questions at Transport Orals as to both where we have spent and how we continue to do that. It is an interesting piece—

Mr Bradshaw

Does the £3.8 billion still stand?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes.

Mr Bradshaw

You are not offering any of that up to the Chancellor.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

No. What we need to understand, of course, is that a lot of it comes in lots of different ways. One of the challenges as we support the Chancellor in his challenge is to understand where that is being delivered most quickly. A lot of it is not only in DFT, if that makes sense. We want to make sure that we are doing that as coherently as possible so that we can continue to drive forward with what is a very clear and, as you say, very important agenda.

Mr Bradshaw

Quite a lot of it is being delivered at local government level. There are currently 1,500 proposals waiting to go ahead and waiting for your Department to approve. When are you going to approve the fourth active travel fund?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

They have completed the first assessment. I am just looking at the stats here for you. Gareth is the expert on this. There are 35 local authorities ranked levels 2 and 3 and 31 at level 1—the starting level, if you like. We are now able to start to make progress with that. I cannot give you a date yet, but it is very much at the heart of what we are doing. Do you have anything else to say, Gareth?

Gareth Davies

There is not much more to add on that. We are looking to come forward as soon as possible.

Mr Bradshaw

What are you waiting for?

Gareth Davies

We have to go through the assessment and there is still a valuation to be done.

Mr Bradshaw

By the Treasury?

Gareth Davies

By us.

Ruth Cadbury

That is tranche 4.

Mr Bradshaw

It is tranche 4. It was signed off by the previous Secretary of State.

Gareth Davies

Obviously, there is a new Government and we need to take this through Ministers.

Mr Bradshaw

I beg your pardon.

Gareth Davies

It is a new Government, so we need to take this through Ministers.

Mr Bradshaw

It’s not a new Government. You have been in government for 12 years. This was signed off by a previous Secretary of State. These projects are ready to go. You say you want green growth. Just get on with it, may I suggest, before the Chancellor claws the money back?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Noted. We will be working through and making sure of that under Baroness Vere’s careful oversight. You know that she is a great champion of all of this. We will make progress as quickly as we can.

Mr Bradshaw

Your colleague Simon Clarke has threatened to withdraw statutory consultee status from Active Travel England. Is that something you will stop him doing?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We are in discussions at the moment on a wide range of potential planning changes, simplifications and streamlinings. Nothing has been decided yet.

Mr Bradshaw

Do you acknowledge that, if your priorities are green growth, removing statutory consultee status from Active Travel England for major planning applications would be an absolute disaster?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

As I say, we are in discussions at the moment with DLUHC and others about how we can most effectively deliver the agenda we want to deliver by looking at the streamlining of the planning system, where it can be done; not by taking away any authority or reducing standards but by streamlining so that we can go at a greater pace to deliver these projects. Therefore, to do that we want to make sure that the right voices are in the system.

Chair

We had Chris Boardman before us. It is fair to say that we were very impressed. He is a doer, and he will end up doing green projects better than has been done before. Perhaps Simon Clarke could meet him. I think he would have a change of heart. That is all I would say. Let’s move on to the buses with Chris Loder.

Chris Loder

I will probably be shorter this time. I understand that pandemic-related bus funding support was recently extended until the end of March, if I have that correct.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes.

Chris Loder

What does that purchase from the bus operators? What percentage of service? Is it basically a straightforward carryover of previous service levels? Do we know if it has reduced or changed?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

That is a technical question that I cannot answer.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Obviously, what it is doing is seeking to shore up service levels and ensure that local authorities and bus operators do not have to reduce those at local level. My recollection—I will double-check that this is correct—is that there is a floor of about 80% of service levels which it is seeking to protect, if I can use that language. There may be variable outcomes in different places because obviously it applies at local level. It is clearly seeking to maintain service levels at a good level.

Chris Loder

Is that the same amount of money as previously, or is it different?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I think we will have used a similar process for calculation as we used for previous emergency funding, but again I will need to confirm that. It is the same sort of calculation we are going through.

Chris Loder

What we are keen to understand is whether it is the same amount of money as previously, but actually buying fewer services.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Obviously, over this period of emergency funding we are also seeing revenues recovering. Indeed, demand outside London for buses is probably the mode of transport that has recovered most strongly. It is running at over 90% now. What we are trying to do, I guess, from the point of view of emergency funding is ensure that we are enabling local authorities to maintain services at a level that ensures that people can get a good bus service.

Chris Loder

It is very welcome that it has been extended to the end of March, but it is almost just kicking the can down the road a little bit. When Baroness Vere came to see us on 29 June, I asked her about BSIP and round 2 of BSIP, if there was going to be one, in order to help address some of these issues, particularly in rural Britain. I think it is fair to say that Baroness Vere was quite non-committal. She did not rule it out, but she did not say it was going to happen. Secretary of State, are you able to give us any beacon of hope that very large rural areas such as Buckinghamshire and Dorset might see the BSIP gem come our way?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

We are absolutely in agreement with you that buses are a particularly critical part of our more rural areas. We are looking very closely at all of that. We will get back to you as soon as we can.

Chris Loder

I want to impress on you the importance of it.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I hear you on that. I am in Northumberland and I understand it well.

Chris Loder

We have virtually no buses and people are unable to get to basic facilities. We would appreciate it very much indeed.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Noted.

Chris Loder

My final question is on the £2 fare cap. It is wonderful for urban areas, where there is a bus, but it is not so great in rural areas where there isn’t even a bus service for people to benefit from. Can you tell us a little bit about how that success is going to be measured, and what you expect will happen at the end of the three-month trial period?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

It is a cost of living measure to try to assist. Every Department was asked to put forward small or large things that could help with the day-to-day cost of living of our constituents. That was one that, before my time, my predecessor was able to put forward to support cost of living challenges. I don’t dispute that it is of use to those who are able to access a bus, but it will have enormous impact and support for many people. Therefore, we hope it will also encourage more use of the bus service. It is Bernadette’s point about getting those numbers back up. It is not a be-all and end-all, but it is a support through the winter. If we see it continuing to be of support, we will consider whether we want to do something else.

Chris Loder

Before I hand over, I would like to feed back to you that, from previous questions of your predecessor and other Ministers, it continues to be very difficult to get objective feedback on BSIP submissions. We have asked for that several times.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Feedback from the Department on the quality of submissions?

Chris Loder

Yes.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Let me look into that and see whether we can provide more.

Christian Wakeford

Secretary of State, you mentioned the cost of living crisis and how a £2 fare cap goes a long way to help with that. I assume that it will be a red line for you when it comes to the Chancellor moving forward.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Yes, that would not be something we would want to give up easily because we know it will have a direct supportive impact on many people who would otherwise have really difficult travel costs.

Christian Wakeford

Can we commit to that £2 cap staying in place?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

I would be fighting very hard for that to be anywhere near the cuts, yes, if there need to be any.

Chair

Over the last couple of years we have focused on the performance of the DVLA, particularly their hitting of their targets and their promises to us. We have kept on to ensure that they meet those promises. I hand over to Karl McCartney on this front.

Karl McCartney

Thank you for the introduction, Chair. Secretary of State, the DVLA have continued to underperform and not achieve their own targets that they have set, notably and specifically the backlog of medical applications. As the Chair has perhaps hinted, the senior management team have underwhelmed us in their repeated appearances in front of this Committee. Have any of those targets been met so far?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Bernadette can update you on the numbers. I am not fully on top of them. In terms of normal activities, they are back to normal. Something like 83% of transactions are done online and that process is now back to where it needs to be. The areas around complex driver medical applications is still absolutely not where it needs to be. Interestingly, having had—

Karl McCartney

I am going to interrupt you and say that in reputation, time and money there has been quite a considerable cost. What steps in your new role as Secretary of State do you plan to take to improve the performance of DVLA? Does that include maybe thanking the current senior management team for their best endeavours and bringing in some competent leaders who will make sure that things get better, and perhaps might even work on site?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

As I say, the progress and return to normal pre-covid figures is right, except around driver medical complexity, and that is something I am looking at specifically to see if we can find the right model to deliver what we need to do for those who need those outputs much more quickly than they have them now. A lot of the pressures at the moment have come from the fact that they probably want to work with other stakeholders to get the information, and we need to be thinking about how we solve that particular loop and whether we need to bring in resource in a different way. I am hoping to go down and visit before too long to get a sense for myself of the dynamics there. What is very interesting about it is that, because most of it is online, it has been a very strong grower of IT apprentices in helping to build new skills, both for DVLA and actually helping the local ecosystem around Swansea to build a next generation of IT specialists. There is a lot of good in there that we want to harness, maximise and continue to grow, and make sure that we are doing that effectively.

Karl McCartney

Secretary of State, I have listened to what you have just answered to questions that I was very specific about. I am very pleased to hear that you will be going down to have a visit, because I think morale is probably pretty low among the 6,000-plus employees there. I am going to ask you very specifically, because you sort of skirted around it, do you believe in regime change?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

As I say, I am going to go down and visit and understand how we can maximise and solve the areas that continue to be underperforming, find the solutions that we need and then be able to move forward from there. I want us to make sure that DVLA is delivering a top of the range service for everybody. The online service is very good. Our IT systems there are very effective. Now that we are back to normal working practices there, I certainly do not have any problems in my postbag any more. I don’t know about you, but I did. I had lots.

Karl McCartney

We all did.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

But I don’t any more, importantly, except around the driver medical area. That is something I really want to focus on to get it right.

Chair

Bernadette, coming back to the figures, for last September for all the paper-based applications there were 1.6 million outstanding. There is always a run rate of 400,000. It has gone down, so great progress has been made, but in our recent attempts to try to get the DVLA to tell us whether they are down to just 400,000 we seemed to be given a different metric. Where is that figure now?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I will tell you what I can tell you at the moment. If there are some bits I cannot fill in, I will gladly make sure that we provide that. I am not seeking, and I know the DVLA is not seeking, to be anything other than wholly transparent. We recognise the Committee’s very close interest in performance. First of all, digital services were unaffected throughout the pandemic. As we know, it is the paper applications that have been the challenge. We are well aware of that. All paper applications are now being processed according to normal targets. Backlogs have been cleared, with the exception of the driver medical, where the DVLA had hoped to clear the backlog by September. It has not been able to do so. For clarity, the figures there are that a normal processing case load with no backlog would be around 120,000 cases. At the moment, there are around 200,000 cases, of which 192,000 are live cases where you need information as opposed to its just being an administrative matter. I hope that gives you a sense of the backlog as it exists now in relation to driver medical applications. The DVLA is hoping to have further reduced that so that it can reintroduce its pre-covid processing target, which is 90% of applications dealt with within 90 days, around the end of the year. I feel that I need to say in defence of the DVLA senior team that they have worked extraordinarily hard. They fully recognise the importance of dealing with these backlogs. A large number of actions have been taken to deal, in particular, with the driver medical issue. Two new customer service centres opened in Birmingham and Swansea. Many new staff have been recruited. Staff are being trained in different ways so that they can deal with more complex and a wider range of medical applications. Simple applications are being triaged more quickly so that people can get their responses and we can get those out of the system. As you know, there has been a change in the rules to allow a wider range of medical professionals than previously to do the processing.

Chair

Yes, we are aware of that.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Clearly, we all recognise the pressures on the NHS and the capacity issues there. Those are a factor in ensuring that these driver medical applications can be processed as quickly as possible. Thus far, the take-up of that has been quite low. I know that one of the things DVLA is doing is seeing whether there is more it can do to encourage that flexibility and that rule change to be used.

Chair

You mean the take-up from private providers.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

Take-up from a wider range of private professionals. There is work going on right now to see what more can be done to increase take-up. I guess I just wanted to set out the steps that had been taken, exactly where the DVLA is currently and the actions that are in hand to try to make further progress, recognising that this is a really important issue. It is, and has always been, the most complex and difficult part of the DVLA’s case load, but a lot of action is in hand to get it into a better place.

Karl McCartney

Thank you for that. It is admirable that you came to the defence of the DVLA. However, I would say as well as specifics there are also some systemic problems there. One of them—I asked you this when I worked in the Department—is about staffing levels of attendance in offices during covid. Specifically at the DVLA, leadership was sadly lacking. If the senior management team were due to get performance-related pay, do you think in any of the last three years the senior management team should have received any bonus for the work they did?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I am not going to speak about individual members of staff—

Karl McCartney

I am not asking you to speak about individual members. I am talking about the senior management team. It is very general.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

What I am saying is that I think the DVLA has had exceptional challenges.

Karl McCartney

Which they failed to meet.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I think it has had to work very hard to respond to those. To your point about staff working in the office—I think this was discussed the last time I appeared before this Committee—some of the highest attendance rates in the office, certainly of my Department and agencies and indeed of many parts of Government, have been in the DVLA precisely because it is an operational organisation where people have had to be in the office.

Karl McCartney

The frontline staff maybe, but I am asking about the senior management team.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

It has also had to contend, of course, with having covid lockdowns, dealing with all the restrictions associated with that and building a covid-secure workplace at a time when, frankly, no employers knew how to do that. There was some industrial action as well. It has been a very significant set of challenges.

Karl McCartney

My colleagues are really getting quite annoyed with the fact that you are not answering the question. Do you think it is acceptable for somebody who leads an organisation to attend that place of work once in six months? Yes or no?

Dame Bernadette Kelly

I don’t know what you are referring to.

Karl McCartney

Just yes or no.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

That would not be acceptable in my Department now because that is not the rule we have in place.

Chair

It was back in covid times.

Dame Bernadette Kelly

There were different rules in place. It would depend, wouldn’t it, upon what restrictions were in place? Of course, the Welsh Government’s restrictions on working in the office were quite different.

Chair

I think what Mr McCartney is referring to is that we were quite surprised when we found out the last time that the two senior people before us had been into the office, when the staff were expected to go in. We heard your answer there. Thank you, Karl. It is time to go to international travel and aviation. We will start with Ben Bradshaw and then move to Gavin Newlands.

Mr Bradshaw

The Chair touched on this earlier when he asked about the absence of the transport Bill. It is the issue of the increased powers for the Civil Aviation Authority. Secretary of State, we have heard so many stories of air travellers being denied their legal right to compensation, refunds and everything else. It is absolutely clear to everyone that the Civil Aviation Authority does not have enough power. Is this, like pavement parking and e-scooters, something you are hoping to fit into this pared down mini transport Bill?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

There are a number of areas around aviation that I would hope we will be able to bring into our as yet unnamed mini transport Bill. Maybe that’s its name now.

Mr Bradshaw

Like a mini-Budget.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

No, probably not. In order to make sure that we use our legislative time to create the right new regulations that drive both passenger-supporting and growth-encouraging activities, I am looking at all of those at the moment. The CAA ones are on my list.

Mr Bradshaw

Do you accept that the CAA powers are not enough at the moment to enforce the rights that consumers have?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Obviously, my predecessor set out the charter in the summer. As we think about how we need to use legislation, or indeed where we can do this without, we must make sure we are pushing forwards on the charter commitments. You are exactly right; it has to work well. Gareth, do you want to pick up on that?