Oral evidence: Transport’s winter resilience: rail flooding, HC 1087Tuesday 25 February 2014

Oral evidence, 25 February 2014.

Witnesses

Mark Carne, Chief Executive, Network Rail, Patrick Hallgate, Route Managing Director, Western, Network Rail, and Mark Hopwood, Managing Director, First Great Western, gave evidence.

Chair

Good afternoon and welcome to the Transport Select Committee. Could we have your name and position, please?

Mark Hopwood

Mark Hopwood. I am the managing director at First Great Western.

Mark Carne

Hello. I am Mark Carne. I am the chief executive of Network Rail.

Patrick Hallgate

I am Patrick Hallgate. I am the route managing director of Network Rail for Western.

Chair

Thank you. A particular welcome to Mr Carne. This is your first visit to the Transport Select Committee since your recent appointment. I am sure it will be the first of many.

Mark Carne

Thank you very much.

Chair

Mr Carne, in 2010, Network Rail got it very wrong. Network Rail told the then Under-Secretary of State for Transport that the flood defences at Dawlish would be sustainable for the foreseeable future. It did not happen. Do you know what went wrong there, and, perhaps just as importantly, what are Network Rail’s assessments now in terms of resilience and why do you think you have got it right now?

Mark Carne

There have been quite a few studies done on the Dawlish wall over the years, using wave and weather data from the Met Office and so on. Those have consistently shown that, actually, the wall is quite resilient. Indeed, over the last 120 years the wall has never been breached. However, we recognise that, with climate change, the rising sea levels and increasing storm forces, that that was not likely to persist for ever. These studies have shown that within the next five or 10 years we would need to do some further works to Dawlish, and that was in the plan. It is fair to say that the weather conditions that we saw in February were, really, the worst that have been experienced in living memory and beyond. The waves were several metres above the railway and just swept the wall away. It was an enormous storm, and then it was followed 10 days later by another enormous storm, which then did further damage to the railway. What we can see is that we have suffered enormous damage to the railway and that is going to take some time to repair, but it is a sign, perhaps as much as anything, of changing weather patterns and much more significant and serious storms.

Chair

Are you saying that looking back on it now, even with hindsight, you do not think Network Rail could have done any more?

Mark Carne

We used historical data on the weather conditions that have prevailed over the last years to do the analysis. What we all have to recognise is that perhaps historical analysis of weather patterns is not an adequate predictor of future weather patterns. Given that, we will need to reconsider the defences that we have, both in terms of coastal defences and flood defences across the country because perhaps the weather patterns are going to be much more severe than we have seen in the past.

Chair

What changes are you going to make now in terms of assessing the weather patterns for the future?

Mark Carne

We obviously have to rely on the expertise of the Met Office and others to give us the information about weather patterns. We are not the weather experts. We take that information from those other experts. What we have committed to do right across the network as a whole is complete a series of climate change resilience studies, which will look at the network and we will report those out in September this year. That was part of our commitment in the next—

Chair

Which areas will that cover?

Mark Carne

That will cover the complete network. We will look at the whole of the network route by route for these climate change resilience studies. Obviously there are some very specific things that we need to do for Dawlish.

Chair

In relation to Dawlish, what are your immediate plans?

Mark Carne

There are three phases to the way we have to tackle the issue of Dawlish. First and foremost, and of course most pressing, is to restore the railway. We have been working night and day, since 4 February, with a team down there to get the railway back up and running. As you well know, in the first few days we were able to stabilise the situation and provide some protection to the worksite, but then there was another enormous storm which then swept even more of the track and the ballast into the sea. But since then I have to say we have been making some tremendous progress, and over the last week we have been managing to get work really almost 24 hours a day, so I am quite optimistic that the work is going very well.

Chair

When do you expect trains to run through Dawlish again?

Mark Carne

We felt it was very important to be able to give a backstop date so that the train operating companies could start to sell advance purchase tickets again, and so we set the Thursday before Easter as a backstop date and that allowed First Great Western or others to start to sell tickets. What I have said is that early next week I expect to come back with an update. I am very hopeful that we will be able to bring that date forward, but there are the highest spring tides of the year in the coming few days and, if that is combined with further storms, there is the potential still for some setbacks. We are not out of the woods yet, which is basically my message, but in a week’s time we will be able to give a much more definitive date of when we hope the railway to start. As I said, we are working absolutely flat out to get the railway back up and running. As a Cornishman myself, I know just how important that railway is. I have been down to see the Dawlish site three times to check on the status of progress and I am satisfied that everything that can be done is being done.

Chair

Next week you will be giving a date.

Mark Carne

Yes. Next week I don’t think we will give a specific date but we will give, hopefully, an accelerated window, to allow the train operating companies to open up their ticket sales for a longer period of time.

Jim Fitzpatrick

I would like you to respond to the comment from the regional representatives, either Mr Carne or your colleagues, about the bus replacement service from Plymouth being faster than the train, because that would be an interesting view as a general policy matter, but I would like to explore the Dawlish situation, if I may, at the moment. From what you have just said, it suggests that you have an end date that you hope to finish it by, but you have not published a schedule of repairs and milestones on the route there, on the basis of the uncertainty of the weather, the spring tide and so on. Would that be fair? Will you be publishing a route map next week when you have a clearer view of what progress has been made?

Mark Carne

I will be happy, next week, to give a clearer indication of the time scale of the individual elements, but, so far, we recognise that this was a rather unique operation and subject to a great degree of uncertainty, particularly in the early phases. We knew that there were significant storms still to come, and, before you get the first foundations in, there is a degree of uncertainty. We are almost past that now. As I said, we really have made, in the last week, great progress. That will allow us to give a much clear indication, in a week’s time, of both the steps and the completion date.

Jim Fitzpatrick

You would have heard me perhaps earlier asking regional representatives if they thought the repairs could have been completed more quickly, and they said they are not engineers. Is what you are doing the best way to do it and the quickest way to do it, the most expensive or the cheapest, because you obviously have priorities and you have limited budgets? What was the criteria you used in determining how it was going to be approached, how it was going to be done and the amount of time that you thought would be acceptable?

Mark Carne

The first criterion was the safety of the work force. That is absolutely critical. To begin with, it was a particularly hazardous worksite, which prevented us from putting people in there to begin with. That is the first criteria. The second criteria, undoubtedly, has been speed to return the service to normal. That is absolutely critical. We started out, in the way that one would normally do, with bringing the engineers from around the different parts of the company together to come up with different ways of tackling this task. It is in quite an awkward spot because of the houses, the location and the logistics, so there were quite a number of things to consider in this. We then had the draft plans that we had reviewed by other consultants as well, so we had a fresh pair of eyes come in and say, “Can you think of a better way of doing this?” Indeed, they came up with some refinements to the overall plan to help us do it a little bit quicker and simpler. I am satisfied that the team did an excellent job in moving as fast as they could to action, but also having a good plan and one that we are really confident will be robust for the future.

Jim Fitzpatrick

Financial constraints did not impact on your ability to get the job done as quickly as possible.

Mark Carne

No.

Jim Fitzpatrick

You would have probably heard the comment about the replacement bus service being quicker than the train. Is that a fair analysis?

Mark Carne

I will leave that one to Mark.

Mark Hopwood

That has been true on some journeys. It is a fact that we have 125 mph capable trains on the London west of England InterCity route, and they only travel at that speed for the first 36 miles of their journey to Reading. As you travel around the sea wall at Dawlish and you travel across the Devon banks, it is not the fastest train route in the UK—that is true.

Chair

Mr Hopwood, have you been involved in discussions about when the line will be fit to use?

Mark Hopwood

Yes. We have had extensive discussions with Network Rail, and all the information that Mark Carne has shared with you this afternoon has been shared with us so that we can help plan our business, inform our customers and get the ticket sales for specific trains back on sale as quickly as we can.

Graham Stringer

I wouldn’t totally rely on the Met Office for your forecasts. They forecasted a slightly drier than normal winter this year. Did you spend your full budget on the maintenance on the Dawlish section?

Mark Carne

So far as I know, but, Patrick, perhaps you can address that specifically.

Patrick Hallgate

Over the past seven or eight years we spend, on average, about £500,000.

Graham Stringer

That has been spent, has it?

Patrick Hallgate

It has been spent. This year, indeed, we have spent more than any of those previous years. That maintenance budget includes an inspection regime on a regular basis and following any storms that occur, but it also includes minor repairs as well, so that money is about £650,000 due to be spent this financial year just finishing.

Graham Stringer

You heard the previous discussion, did you, that we were told the Environment Agency was planning to flood to protect areas further down the line, while you were building signals on concrete posts, and that those policies seemed to be in conflict? Can you tell us about your discussions with the Environment Agency on that and if there is likely to be a resolution of that issue?

Patrick Hallgate

I wasn’t party to earlier discussions, but, in general terms, it is fair to say that following last year’s storms we had extensive discussions with the Environment Agency over Cowley bridge and some other areas in the south‑west, which have led to a much better relationship in terms of the way that we work together collaboratively, looking at mutually beneficial areas of flood prevention from a railway and housing perspective. Indeed, we are shortly due to sign a memorandum of understanding on a national basis with the Environment Agency about how we can work better together.

Graham Stringer

Are you aware of a particular point where you are lifting signals up to protect them, and at the same time they are planning to flood fields next to them and close the line early as a way of protecting elsewhere? We were told that those policies were not compatible.

Patrick Hallgate

That sounds like the Cowley bridge incident itself. The issue wasn’t about the flooding of the railway; it was about the protection of Exeter. We have moved to a point where we are working together on a joint scheme now, but it is fair to say this time last year we had got to a situation where their plans for a scheme weren’t taking full account of the railway’s requirements. We have moved beyond that now.

Graham Stringer

Is it resolved?

Patrick Hallgate

We haven’t finalised the scheme, but the discussion has moved to a point where there will be a mutually beneficial situation or outcome.

Mark Carne

There is a broader issue here, which is about whether you can use railway infrastructure for flood defences, and is that the right thing to do? This is what the MOU, with the Environment Agency, is set to address so that we work closely with them so that we can understand the limits of using railway infrastructure for flood defences, because, of course, most of these railway embankments and structures were never designed with flood defence in mind. So we really need to work closely with the Environment Agency to make sure that their plans for flood defence are aligned with the best interests of the railway as well.

Graham Stringer

When do you expect that to be resolved, and is it affecting the speed with which you are investing?

Mark Carne

We are going to sign this MOU with the Environment Agency in the next few weeks and we will be working closely with them over the next months as part of this input to the overall climate change resilience plans that we will be putting together.

Graham Stringer

I wasn’t aware that you were not watching the previous session, but we were told that, for a relatively modest amount of money to improve the signalling, the speeds on the routes could be improved dramatically. Do you agree with that, do you have plans to improve the signalling, and will it be improved?

Patrick Hallgate

We are currently undertaking a west of England study in terms of, obviously, the redevelopment of Reading, which is currently the biggest capacity pinch point in the south‑east. The whole of the south‑west benefits from the investment in Reading, from a train service perspective.

Graham Stringer

That is taking place at the moment.

Patrick Hallgate

That is taking place at the moment. As part of the next round of studies, we look at the wider south‑west of England and the connectivity to the south‑west. We are aware, obviously, of Plymouth’s aspirations of how to get a sub-three-hour journey from Plymouth to London and we will feed that into the study that is currently under way, which looks at line speeds between Reading and into Devon. We are actually looking at that, which is due for publication in October.

Graham Stringer

Before the line speeds are improved, if that is indeed what you decide to do, is it possible to use the network in a way that would get a train from London to Plymouth before 11.45 in the morning, which makes business in the morning impossible?

Patrick Hallgate

That whole debate is around the balance of capacity. When you have five of the top 10 most overcrowded trains in the UK currently coming into Paddington, the balance of capacity is really important. You could achieve that, but you would have to cut out stops on the way from Plymouth to London to achieve. So, while it is physically possible, the question would be, is it a good use of balance and capacity in the peak into Paddington? That is part of that wider study, but at the moment, while ever you have the crawling pattern that you have with the trains, it does not give you the optimum solution for Plymouth and for the rest of the network.

Mr Sanders

The whole of the west country is very grateful for the work that is being done—the very hard work in the very difficult conditions in which it is being undertaken by Network Rail staff. We are also grateful to First Great Western’s customer support staff, who are doing a fabulous job of helping customers transfer from train to coach and coach to train and also keeping the spirits up. I think that is the best way of putting what I have seen on the ground, and that ought to be on the record. I think you have coped in a crisis very, very well. Can I just ask about the current repairs? Will they provide a long‑term solution to the ongoing problems at Dawlish?

Mark Carne

As I said earlier on, there are three steps. I have described the first step, which is the immediate repair. The second step is how we make the Dawlish railway more robust to the kind of storms that we have seen in the future, because the repairs that we are currently doing are basically not like for like, but we are restoring the railway so that it is broadly the same. We will be kicking off a study in the next couple of weeks to look at that, to see what kinds of measures could be taken to really make the railway there more storm-tolerant. That may mean having to put a breakwater in front of the wall at the moment or it may mean putting some breakwater further out to sea to absorb some of the energy of the waves. Those sorts of studies need to take into account the full impact of the changing weather patterns and the changing current patterns and so on, and the way in which waves may move and be deflected so that you don’t create any unintended consequences. It is an important study that we will do over the coming months, but we are very clear that we will need to do something more to increase the robustness of the railway in Dawlish. Then the third phase is the longer-term option of, potentially, additional routes into the west country, either restoring some of the older railway lines that were taken out of use in the 1960s, or potentially creating new routes that will bypass Dawlish or create another route around Dawlish. That work is something that we will commence very shortly. At this stage we do not have a preferred option on this. We are in a divergent phase of collecting people’s ideas and thoughts about what all the alternatives are that should be considered in this, and we hope to consult with stakeholders in the next couple of weeks to make sure that we have really captured all of the ideas in that. That work will then be studied over the next few months, with the hope that we will be able to come to a conclusion as to what will be the viable options, from a broad socioeconomic perspective, by the autumn.

Mr Sanders

You say no preferred routes, but on 10 February Mr Hallgate was interviewed by the BBC, and you referred to an outline study last year into a northern route around Dartmoor. Will you be publishing this study and, if so, when?

Patrick Hallgate

That was an initial look at one of the five options that go into that longer-term study. It is fair to say I did say what I said in the interview, but it was not necessarily quoted in context of the wider study that indeed Mark has already—

Mr Sanders

We’ve all been there.

Patrick Hallgate

Mark has just outlined a study which is the study I was talking about. One of those five options was picked up on as having chosen our option. That is not the case at all. Into the study go the five options, plus any other routes that come out of the optioneering.

Mr Sanders

It would be fair to say that you have obviously looked at some outline studies. Do you have any figures as to what the cost of those alternatives might be?

Patrick Hallgate

Only of the Okehampton line, which was looked at in a broad brush context last year. To reopen in the state that you have had before it closed, the figure was in the order of £500 million to £700 million. That is principally governed by a number of factors. We don’t own it, for a start. It has had places where it has been built on already, and there are a numbers of bridges, tunnels and viaducts that would require rebuilding because they have not been maintained since closure in 1968.

Mr Sanders

I have just one quick question to First Great Western. As a Network Rail customer, are you satisfied that the track at Dawlish can be made fit for purpose in the long run?

Mark Hopwood

Like a number of people who have sat here today, I start by saying I am not an engineer, so I will leave that to the engineers in terms of what is achieved. From our perspective, we have seen pretty continuous efforts by Network Rail to maintain the route through Dawlish. It is worth noting that this is the first time in a very, very long time, if ever, we have seen this level of damage; so we have to recognise that. The key focus for us is on getting the railway back and making sure that Network Rail have the access they need and the funding to maintain it in such a condition that it is open, hopefully, all the time.

Chair

Are you satisfied, Mr Hopwood, with the way that Network Rail are working with you? Do you feel that you are involved enough?

Mark Hopwood

I am really pleased, actually. We have had very close dialogue. I never imagined, when the new chief executive of Network Rail was appointed, that I would spend that much time with him in his first few weeks. We have had a very, very close dialogue. We understand exactly what is happening. We have discussed the implications for our business and that has been built into the plan; so we are very happy with that.

Martin Vickers

Just sticking with Dawlish and the west country for the moment, understandably, the focus tends to be on passengers. What impact has it had on the movement of freight and how has that been overcome?

Patrick Hallgate

Currently, in that area we obviously have engineering trains, from our perspective as well. We were due a track renewal on the other side of the line that is blocked in the next week or so, which obviously has been affected by this. There is a freight operation just out of Heathfield, just north of Newton Abbot, which is one train a week of timber that goes to a kitchen factory. We are looking at alternative access for them. Obviously, they road the timber up to there and use it as a rail hub. We are looking at alternatives for them, exploring at the moment whether we could use an area we have in Exeter to provide that. We are still at the discussion point of trying to make that site fit for purpose, but other than that it is not a largely used freight area.

Mark Hopwood

On a related theme, the vast majority of our focus is on our passengers and customers, but it is also worth pointing out that First Great Western’s main engineering facility for its high-speed trains is in Plymouth and that is where we do all the heavy overhaul on our power cars. We have had to put in place quite a big logistics exercise to move some rolling stock by road across the gap. Where we have not moved the trains, we have moved our people, and over 90 of the staff at our area depot in Plymouth have spent a week away in a hotel at Bristol or London working in our maintenance depot there. So there is a lot of effort going in to make sure we maintain the rolling stock even though we are cut off from one of our main facilities.

Martin Vickers

Moving on to the national scene—Network Rail as a whole—what is the latest estimate of putting right the flood damage, and can that be met from existing resources?

Mark Carne

We have suffered enormous damage across the network as a whole. I would really put it into four broad categories. We have had the coastal erosion damage obviously at Dawlish but also on the Cambrian coastline, where we have lost an enormous amount of railway. We have had extensive flooding—I mean flooding on over 280 sites across the network as a whole. Of course, in places like Bridgwater, the railway is still under water. We have also had very unexpectedly or, rather, without any precedent, should I say, groundwater issues and groundwater flooding. The most serious of those was at Maidenhead, where we had literally the water coming out around the ground. Then the fourth area really has been landslips, which has been a serious problem for us. We had over 50 landslips in Kent alone, where normally one would expect two or three a year. These are the four different broad categories of major issues that we have had to deal with over the last three or four months. So far, specifically to answer your question, we estimate the cost so far in the region of £170 million, but that is a fairly broad brush estimate and is subject to further clarification as the full extent of the works materialises. The way we work is that we have to absorb that cost and find savings and more efficiencies in the way we work to cover that cost, and that is what we will do.

Martin Vickers

It will have an impact on both capital and maintenance schemes elsewhere in the network.

Mark Carne

No, that is not the case. We have a programme of work to do, which we will execute and do, but as a company we are striving to find better ways of working and striving to find new ways of working to increase the efficiency of the way that we deliver the network. We will do our best to find ways to absorb these costs within our overall structure.

Chair

Are you giving a commitment, Mr Carne, that no projects that were planned for the next control period are going to be either cancelled or significantly postponed?

Mark Carne

That is correct, yes; absolutely.

Chair

That is an absolute undertaking from you.

Mark Carne

Yes, absolutely.

Jim Fitzpatrick

I have just a couple of points of clarification, if I may. Mr Carne, are the repair works at Dawlish continuous or have they been affected by the weather and by the tides at the moment, and, if they are, how disruptive has the weather been to prevent your people being on site as much as you would want them to be?

Mark Carne

In the first few days we had very limited access to the site. Then we put in place these shipping containers with several hundred tonnes of rock in it, to provide some shelter and protection. That enabled us to start work, but then we had another huge storm. This was another storm of the sort you only have once every five or 10 years. It was a very big second storm. That caused some more disruption. After that, we were able to work around 18 hours a day, but in the last week we have been working pretty much 24 hours a day. So it is partly calmer weather and partly tidal, but we have really been cracking on.

Jim Fitzpatrick

Thank you. My apologies for assuming you had heard the last set of witnesses giving evidence; I just assumed that you were in the room. Mr Hallgate mentioned the publication of the study in terms of Reading in the west, expected in October. The previous witnesses have said that, in a meeting with the Secretary of State today, he said that he expected to have a draft report by June this year. Would that be the same report and is that the timetable within which you are expecting to see publication?

Patrick Hallgate

That is right. The Dawlish element is June, and then they go into a wider study, which is beyond that and into the whole of the south‑west, for publication in October, so it is the first part of a two-part study.

Chair

I appreciate that there will have to be a lot more discussion about exactly what happens in the future in relation to reinstating the Dawlish line, either on its own or together with another line, but there have been some proposals for the construction of a new or reinstated rail line to bypass the sea wall in Dawlish. Is that something that is practicable?

Mark Carne

That is part of the study that I referred to earlier on, where we were gathering the ideas about these different alternative routes. There are at least five different alternative routes, and that will be part of the study that we will commence in a couple of weeks’ time when we have collected all the different ideas from different stakeholders.

Chair

Can you give me a clear idea of your timetable from now on and the process that you will be engaged in in assessing views on what alternatives there might be and then considering what could be viable? Can you give me a picture of it? You did say that you would be starting a study within the next two weeks. What is likely to happen from there?

Mark Carne

Yes, certainly, Madam Chair. The idea is that we want to try to ensure that we have collected all of the different ideas from people. As I say, this is the divergent phase where we are collecting the ideas and we will try to land that within two weeks. We will then publish: “These are the ideas that people have suggested, these are the things that we will then look at.” There will then be a study that will be executed over the coming months that will look at all of those options and come to some recommendations as to which are the most viable, if any of them are, and which is the most viable to create an alternative route into the west country.

Chair

Do you have any date for when those final proposals will be considered?

Mark Carne

The idea is to have a pretty firm idea by the middle of the year, around June. Then it will go into the broader studies that will be published later in the year, in September/October-time.

Chair

Will the funding for the study come from existing resources or will it be diverted from other sources?

Mark Carne

We had funding already, and we have funding already for our climate change resilience studies, so we will have funding to cover the study.

Chair

Mr Hopwood, you obviously have a commercial interest in what happens. What is your current position? Are you being reimbursed for not being able to run the service? Could you tell us what the position is?

Mark Hopwood

The standard industry arrangements apply, so there is compensation from Network Rail where we are not able to run trains, but we do have to bear the cost of running the buses as part of that compensation, the extra train movements that I spoke about earlier, moving all our rolling stock and staff about; and, obviously, what we are seeing at the moment is less people travelling, partly because of the very severe weather but also because of the longer journey times. That, all together, has an impact on our business. Even when we get the train service back up and running, which I hope we will very shortly, there will be a longer-term effect on our revenue which will have an impact on us.

Chair

What would the impact be on your business if it was no longer possible to run services to south Devon due to the construction of a new inland line from Exeter to Plymouth? If that happened, how would that impact on your business?

Mark Hopwood

That would impact us because part of our operation is running both local services and some fast trains from London that do stop at places like Dawlish and Teignmouth, and a number of those trains carry on to Newton Abbot and Paignton. As most members of the Committee will understand, I operate a franchise. The franchise from the Department is very clear on what we need to provide, and we need to provide a train service to all those local stations between Exeter St Thomas, through Dawlish and Teignmouth, to Newton Abbot. That is part of our business, it is part of our franchise, and you heard the regional representatives earlier telling you that we are moving very large numbers of local passengers on those journeys—people travelling to schools, college and work, as well as holiday makers. That business has been growing and growing quite substantially.

Chair

Mr Carne, what would be your message to the people of Dawlish and the south‑west generally in terms of making rail infrastructure resilient to the kind of weather that we have been experiencing recently? Do you think it can be done?

Mark Carne

First of all, I want to express my appreciation to them for their patience and understanding of the situation that we are in. I must say they really have been tremendous. The support that we have had from the public is hugely appreciated and it makes a big difference to the people who are out there working night and day to restore the service. What I would say is that we will do our best to get the service up and running as quickly as we can, and that is where our absolute focus is, but we are not satisfied with that alone. We then have to look at how to make the Dawlish railway stronger for the future so that we don’t have this kind of disruption again in the future. As part of that, we have to consider alternative routes into the south‑west that could complement the Dawlish route. That is the programme of work that we have under way.

Chair

Thank you very much and thank you to all of you. Examination of Witness

Witness

Rt Hon Patrick McLoughlin MP, Secretary of State, Department for Transport, gave evidence.

Chair

Welcome to the Transport Select Committee, Secretary of State. In January 2013, Network Rail proposed a £31 million rail resilience programme specifically for the south‑west. The money for that was not set out in the autumn statement. Why was that? Was that negligence? What was it?

Mr McLoughlin

It wasn’t negligence. There is a lot of money that Network Rail spend that we do not necessarily set out in either the Budget or autumn statement, and that was part of a programme of 10 or 11 different items which they wanted to work on, and we wanted them to work on. Some of it was easier. For instance, there was always the planned work that was going on on the Whiteball tunnel, which was a £15 million scheme. Part of the resilience that was included in that was included in the Whiteball tunnel project, which was already in the programme and was going to be done, so some of these issues are dealt with in a more longer-term way.

Chair

Do you have any regrets that that money wasn’t provided in a very direct and specific form?

Mr McLoughlin

I don’t think it would have made any difference to the horrendous weather conditions that we saw or would have made any impact as far as what we saw around Dawlish was concerned. That is where we have had the major problem as far as the rail network is concerned, and I don’t think any of the 11 schemes would have had an impact on what we saw at Dawlish.

Chair

The Prime Minister has now said that there will be £31 million funding for winter resilience and transport in the south‑west. Is that going to be enough, and is that a commitment that really is going to be met?

Mr McLoughlin

Certainly, that commitment is being met, but one of the other things that I have also done is to ask Network Rail to look at the more longer-term resilience for the south‑west so that we are not just looking at those particular schemes, but there will be a much more detailed report done by Network Rail as to how to service the south‑west. A number of projects and proposals have been put forward and I want those to be looked at, and looked at properly and carefully, so that we can do a much longer-term plan as far as resilience is concerned. Quite often, as you will know and the Committee will know only too well, these projects are planned over a certain length of time. Some of the planned projects on the £31 million scheme are not planned for straight away but when other work is being done in the area.

Chair

We have just been questioning the new chief executive of Network Rail. He said to us that he felt the problems that were experienced this year and the failure to provide the necessary infrastructure was to do with following historic weather forecasts. I think that was the term he used. What is going to be different for the future to enable us to anticipate what the weather will be in a reasonable way?

Mr McLoughlin

We have to adapt. We have to look at what circumstances we get. There is no doubt that the storms that we saw at Dawlish were unprecedented in recent years, but, having those storms taking place, having forecasters and scientists saying that we may get more regular events like that, then we have to look at the way in which we do resilience overall. Although I have asked Network Rail specifically to look at the south‑west, in the Department, I am also getting the Department to look at resilience across all fronts and fields. We will be setting up a working group within the Department specifically to look at resilience across the United Kingdom for flooding and particular cases like that. That will be a body which will be worked on by civil servants but it will be overseen, and I will be asking a group of people from the industry to oversee that work and to bring the practical experience that they can bring to challenge what we in the Department are saying. Initially, the overseeing body will be chaired by Richard Brown, who did the report, who was the non‑executive director of the Department but who also did the report on the franchising.

Chair

There is clearly work under way across Government to look at this whole issue of resilience, infrastructure and bad weather. Can you tell us what your role is in those discussions and in that cross-Government group?

Mr McLoughlin

Perhaps I can mention the three things that have been going on. Obviously, Cobra, at which the Department has been represented or I have attended, has been meeting during the weather crisis that we have, and that continues to meet when necessary. Then the Prime Minister has set up a specific Cabinet Committee to look at the flood resilience across the country, so I am a member of that. As far as the Department is concerned, I am talking about how we in the Department for Transport respond to the situations which we saw. The work which I have just outlined to you explains how I am dealing with that, as Secretary of State for Transport, as far as the Transport Department is concerned. That will feed into the various Cabinet Committees that the Prime Minister is chairing and other issues too that we want to address, obviously working very closely with Network Rail and the Environment Agency as well.

Mr Sanders

Can I thank you, Secretary of State, for the way that your Department has kept south‑west MPs fully informed over these past few weeks and particularly your excellent PPS sat behind you there? Has the study that is going to be undertaken been commissioned already?

Mr McLoughlin

Mr Sanders, can I first thank you? As Ian was a member of your Committee, he knows the kind of information that is available to and necessary to Members of Parliament and to the Committee. You are not the only person, as well, who has congratulated Ian on doing a fantastic job in keeping colleagues informed. That has come from other quarters in the House as well, and I am very grateful to Ian for the work he has done. As far as the work that I set Network Rail to do, which I announced at Transport Questions a couple of weeks ago in the immediate aftermath of Dawlish, that work is going to be done by Network Rail and I am expecting the report in July.

Mr Sanders

And that is looking at alternative routes.

Mr McLoughlin

That is looking specifically at the various suggestions in The Railway Magazine and various other publications that I have been reading as to what those other routes may or may not be. There are several suggestions, so, yes, that is looking at alternative routes.

Mr Sanders

One of the critical questions is whether this study will look at the economic impact in the longer term, both on the cost of maintenance and on the impact on local economies were any existing line to no longer be there. I am not entirely clear that those questions will be addressed in this study.

Mr McLoughlin

We have yet to publish the actual guidance of the way the study will go, but I would want the study to be as comprehensive as possible in coming forward with those proposals. I certainly don’t want to see any services taken away that exist at the moment, but we do need to look at whether we have the resilience right or whether there are other things that we can do to improve the resilience on that particular line.

Mr Sanders

It is one thing to come up with five alternative routes and to put a price tag on each of them, but you do need to know what the implications are of any one of those being implemented above another and what its ramifications are for the existing network.

Mr McLoughlin

That is absolutely the case. The other thing as well—I know I have said this before to the Committee, or at least I think I have said it before to the Committee—is that you can’t look at any one bit of the railway in isolation. You do have to look, basically, at the whole structure of the railway. That is why the changes that are taking place at Reading station are very important as far as capacity is concerned. When I say down in the south‑west, “Reading station and the works going on there,” people look at me as if to say, “What does that have to do with services in the south‑west? What does that have to do with services in Cornwall and Devon?” Well, it has quite a lot to do with services in Cornwall and Devon because it will greatly increase the throughput by taking freight off the main lines and not clogging those main lines up with freight from Southampton up to the midlands and vice versa from the midlands down to Southampton. So, although it seems a long, long way away from Plymouth, the work that is going on at Reading will be very important indeed, and that does come to a conclusion next year.

Mr Sanders

One of the other things is the fear in the south‑west about other links—road links, not just rail. The study is being brought forward into the A303. How will that be viewed in relation to the studies into rail? Will there be some overview taken to try and look at this in a strategic and integrated way about the transport means of the far south‑west?

Mr McLoughlin

That is more the job of the Secretary of State working along with the local authorities. I was down in Plymouth. When I did the Dawlish visits, I then went on to meet leaders in Plymouth and I met a number of the local Members of Parliament down there, as well as the council leaders and the LEP leaders. That does need to be something that we take an overview of, but I don’t see them as competing issues. The A303 has been long debated as to improvements that are needed on that particular road. We have secured a favourable increase in the roads budget between 2015 and 2020. It is one of the only few Departments that managed to get a long‑term settlement. That partly came out on the back of the fact that infrastructure projects do need planning and they do need assurances well before the actual commencement date. Those studies on the A303 are going on. Obviously, the announcements that I made in Transport Questions a few weeks ago were more related to the immediate problem that we saw as a result of, basically, the loss of the Dawlish wall—4,000 tonnes of embankment into the sea.

Chair

I am taking questions at the moment on winter resilience issues because we do have other topics we want to put to the Secretary of State. Ms Champion, is yours on winter resilience?

Sarah Champion

It is building on my colleague’s point. Secretary of State, our first witnesses were the chief execs and leaders of the affected local authorities. While they were complimentary of the Government’s response to the Dawlish incident, they did broaden the debate to look at the whole transport infrastructure of their region and they felt that it was woefully letting them down. You have mentioned the road budget. Are the Government also looking at other transport infrastructures for this region, because it clearly seems to be hampering their economic development?

Mr McLoughlin

What I would say is that we have committed over the next financial period of 2014 to 2019 for Network Rail a budget of £38 billion. The work that I have commissioned may come up with some other things that may need to be done more urgently. Planning and making sure you have the right answers is very important as far as rail infrastructure is concerned, but, if necessary, I would certainly want to relook at the plans over the next five years. I would have to have the negotiations to see where we finance that from. I had a group of Members of Parliament in today to tell me that a bit of the line was electrified from Hull to Leeds. They were making the case that Hull is the City of Culture from 2017 and could we get that in in that particular period? This is all part of the amazing amount of requests that I am getting from colleagues about transport infrastructure investment and something I am very happy to try and make the case for and deliver where we can.

Jim Fitzpatrick

Can I just follow on, Secretary of State, from Ms Champion’s question? The regional representatives were very complimentary about the meeting that they had with you earlier on. They thought your response was very positive. With regard to the study coming forward in draft in June and then published in September/October, given that they paint a pretty depressing picture of being let down for decades by successive Governments, are you more confident than not—I know this is crystal ball gazing—that the study will produce more of a White Paper than a Green Paper, given the qualifications you have just articulated about differing priorities and pressures from different groups of MPs, and the unforeseen obviously coming forward? Do you think the south‑west has risen as a result of the recent difficulties and brought their plight more into focus and, therefore, they are more likely to get support this time round than previously?

Mr McLoughlin

I wouldn’t like to give the impression that they did not get support last time round. As I say, you can’t look at incidents in the rail industry in isolation. I do make the point that the money we are spending at Reading—I will come back to it again—which is £800 million, is very substantial as far as giving better services and better reliability to services for the south‑west is concerned. I met earlier today—I know he has just given evidence to you as well—the leader of Plymouth council, who talks about the problems that they have as far as a fast service to London is concerned. They are asking for a service that is faster than three hours. At the moment they don’t have that. That would be a major move in the right direction as far as they are concerned. We need to try and look at all the various competing arguments and see if we can make progress.

Jim Fitzpatrick

Network Rail were quite confident that by next week they will have a much clearer picture of how long the Dawlish repairs are going to take. I am assuming your officials are in daily contact in getting reports. Is the Department happy with Network Rail’s ability to deliver a clearer picture of the repair schedule from next week ahead and that it is actually coping with the pressure that it is under at the moment from different parts of the county, but especially over Dawlish?

Mr McLoughlin

Yes. I have been down there to look at the actual site myself. I don’t want to go down too often. I hope to go down next time when we are about to reopen the line, but I would say that a huge amount of work and effort is going into that scheme. When you look at it, everyone has seen the pictures, and I think those pictures will live in the minds and be used on many occasions when you saw the walls washed away and the railway dangling above the sea as such. I am rather sorry we have slipped from the original March dates, which we were told, but then there was another very bad storm afterwards and, because that bit of the sea wall was still open, a lot more damage was done. I have every confidence—and I know Mark Carne, who has given evidence to you earlier on, is confident—of having that delivered.

Jim Fitzpatrick

Thank you, Secretary of State, and thank you, Chair.

Graham Stringer

We have talked a number of times about the people from Devon, Cornwall and Plymouth that you met earlier today. What commitments did you give them that they can bank?

Mr McLoughlin

That they can bank?

Graham Stringer

You are a charming man, Secretary of State, and you charm us, but what can they actually put in the bank?

Mr McLoughlin

I have been called many things in my time, Mr Stringer, but that is the first time I have been called charming.

Chair

They told us that it was a very good meeting and we would like to be reminded of the things you have agreed which prove that that is a correct assessment.

Mr McLoughlin

You have a much more forensic way of putting the question there, Chair. Obviously, the resilience programme that we have talked about is £31 million. That money, although it is being worked on, is now there. Look, I have every sympathy for the argument of “Plymouth under three hours,” and it is a question of how we find the capacity on the rail network. The problem is of success. Let’s be absolutely clear that that is what we are dealing with as far as the rail industry is concerned. We have seen an increase in rail numbers from 750 million 20 years ago to 1.5 billion, basically, now every year, so it is a problem of success. It is also a demand problem of people wanting more and quicker services, and it becoming much more important that those services are there. What I would say, Mr Stringer, is that you should take on board the fact that the next programme for Network Rail, which was actually agreed before I came to the Department, is in excess of £38 billion and is quite a move. I have the figures from the previous rail spending reviews. We have gone up. CP4, which was done in 2007-2008, was £28 billion, so we have increased the programme from £28 billion to £38 billion at a time when there are substantial pressures on public finance.

Graham Stringer

I criticise the Government for many things but not for their commitment to the capital programme in the railways. What firm commitments are there then to the people of Plymouth, Devon and Cornwall that you have given them?

Mr McLoughlin

We have talked about the £31 million, but that is on top of some other planned work which was going on. That £31 million, for instance, does not include what was just done on the Whiteball tunnel, which is £15 million, which was already in the programme for improvements. There are other areas that we are looking at as far as improving the overall service, but, as I say, I want to see that report in July and I want to look at what suggestions come out of that report and see how we then finance and fund those particular suggestions if they are proper alternatives.

Graham Stringer

As you say, you have been down to visit people as well as seeing people here. Since the storms started and this line went down in early January, what could have been done better than it actually was done, because nothing is ever perfect? There must be things that you have learned and things that could have been done better.

Mr McLoughlin

I am not sure given the kind of weather conditions we faced. The last time I appeared before the Transport Select Committee I talked about the amount of salt stocks we had ready for a harsh winter snow. I am pleased to inform the Committee that we still have the same stocks because that was resilience planning for the problems that we had in previous years, where, no doubt, previous Secretaries of State have appeared before the Committee and you have said, “What are you doing to build the stocks up?” Well, they are still there. Given the kind of weather conditions that we saw, I am not sure there was much we could have done to protect that particular wall.

Graham Stringer

We heard from both Network Rail and representatives from the south‑west that in one particular area what the Environment Agency were doing to protect Exeter from flooding was in conflict with what Network Rail were doing in terms of lifting the signals. Are you going to use your good offices to try and help resolve that issue?

Mr McLoughlin

Yes. I obviously wasn’t here when Mark Carne gave his evidence to you, but there is a much better working relationship between the agencies as a result of what we have been going through over the past months since the Cobra meetings first started. But, certainly, we have to try and get a greater understanding between both Network Rail and the Environment Agency as to their plans.

Jason McCartney

Secretary of State, it, sort of, follows on from my colleague Mr Stringer, who says, “Don’t listen to the Met Office forecasts.” Ten years ago it was the wrong leaves on the line; last year on the east coast main line it was the overhead lines coming down in the high winds. Now, of course, it is flooding as well, and you have referred to the salt stocks. I am just interested in what specialist advice you are getting on how to plan for these pretty much unforeseen weather phenomena, or do you think they are one‑offs? What advice particularly are you being given?

Mr McLoughlin

They are one‑offs on a regular basis; that is what I would say. What I would say there, Mr McCartney, is that we have to learn from all these particular events and we have to try and put a resilience programme in place to cope with all these different events. As you rightly say, over the last few years we have seen many different climatic conditions which have affected our transport situation, whether it is high winds and the problems that we had on the east coast line or the flooding. Let’s also remember there was not just flooding down in the south‑west but also in the east of East Anglia in addition to some of the problems that we faced. As a result of the Cobra meetings we are looking a lot more across the whole Department. That is partly what I was telling the Committee about a few minutes ago, setting up a resilience committee and just testing the resilience across various parts of the network.

Jason McCartney

We have this kind of weather event which is very much in the public consciousness at the moment, but, as you have said, we have had a pretty light winter in terms of snow. We had a harsh winter in Yorkshire for the last three winters, and my council have spent millions of pounds on their salt stocks, and their spreaders have hardly been out since Christmas as well. How much of a challenge is it, with the focus on flooding at the moment, to invest money, when money is tight, on weather-affected events on our transport infrastructure which may not happen?

Mr McLoughlin

Then again next year they might happen. Your initial point—I am sorry, I didn’t address that—was about the advice and information from the Met Office. The truth is that the Met Office’s short‑term forecasts are incredibly good. Their longer-term forecasts—and I think they would be the first to acknowledge this—are sometimes not as reliable. Certainly, when I was told that local authorities were told to prepare for a fairly dry winter, that just shows how difficult it is, but the Met Office, on their short‑term forecasts, are incredibly accurate and have been incredibly reliable.

Chair

Do you intend to allocate any additional funding to Network Rail to deal with winter resilience infrastructure issues?

Mr McLoughlin

What I would say there, Chair, is that the money that is allocated to them—£38 billion—is a huge sum of money. Some of that is being spent on resilience; some of it is being spent on improving the rail network, improving signalling and electrification, and so that is there. Obviously, I am awaiting the report, which I have just told the Committee about, from Network Rail about the south‑west and I will need to see what the consequences of that report are.

Chair

Network Rail have just told us that they can deal with winter resilience issues without there being any impact on planned programmes. Do you think that is realistic?

Mr McLoughlin

If Network Rail have told you that, I will be looking very much at the transcripts. That might be very useful.

Chair

Perhaps I should not have mentioned that then.

Mr McLoughlin

Somebody else would have mentioned it. I am sure the Treasury will look at the transcripts as well.

Chair

I would like now to turn to High Speed 2, on which you have been in front of this Committee before. Indeed, the Government have produced their response to our last report on that. We will be calling David Higgins to the Committee shortly, but can you tell us if his review does indeed include our recommendation for looking at building High Speed 2 from the north to the south as well as from the south to the north? Can you give us any information on that?

Mr McLoughlin

As I have not yet got his review, I had better not tell you what is in it because it would seem that I would know and at this stage I don’t know. I know there is a lot of pressure from a number of people to say, “Can we start building the route from the north to the south?” The one problem is that I have not yet confirmed the route for Birmingham to Manchester or Birmingham to Leeds. That has gone out to consultation. That consultation closed on 31 January, so I have to go through due process before confirming the route. Once the route is confirmed, then we have to do the environmental statements, and that is no short programme. I am waiting for David’s report, and I will look, obviously, very carefully at what he has got to say, but I don’t think it is quite as easy as some people have alluded to—to say start building from the south to the north, not least because part of the capacity issue is into the London terminal Euston. David has been brought in specifically to look at how we might speed up delivery, improve delivery and improve costs, and I am awaiting his report as the Committee is as well.

Chair

When are you expecting it to be delivered to you?

Mr McLoughlin

During March. I had better not be too specific on the date.

Chair

During March?

Mr McLoughlin

During March.

Graham Stringer

Can you just confirm some schedules of the progress of the Hybrid Bill. Is the Second Reading of the Hybrid Bill still scheduled for April?

Mr McLoughlin

It is 25 February today. The representations close on the Bill on 27 February, so that closes on Thursday. There then has to be a period for the Parliamentary Agents to give a report to Parliament on those assessments. That has to be laid for two weeks before we can do the Second Reading, but I very much hope that we can do the Second Reading fairly shortly after that. Whether it is April or not, that would be my hope, but I cannot anticipate how many representations we are going to get on that. We have had approximately 14,500 responses so far, and, as I say, consultations close on Thursday this week.

Graham Stringer

Do you have a split on those responses, pro and anti?

Mr McLoughlin

I don’t have that information.

Graham Stringer

It would be interesting.

Mr McLoughlin

I don’t think there will be too many that are pro. They will be mainly those people who are affected by the line, I would imagine.

Graham Stringer

Have you given instructions out yet to start the preparations for a second Hybrid Bill for the routes to Leeds and Manchester?

Mr McLoughlin

The work will be done on that, but not until I have confirmed the route, which we hope to do before the end of this year, following the consultations—don’t forget the consultations only ended just over three weeks ago.

Graham Stringer

But does it have to be sequential? I assume some of the work could be done concurrently in preparing the Bill, as it was for the first Hybrid Bill on the first part of the route.

Mr McLoughlin

I think that certain parts of the Bill, once we have done the first part of the Bill, are a matter of replicating what has been done in the first bit of the Bill, but with regard to the actual work, the environmental assessments and suchlike, that is dependent on me confirming the route and the route has not yet been confirmed.

Graham Stringer

Can you give us a schedule on that decision?

Mr McLoughlin

It has always been that the normal period is that by the end of this year I will confirm the route. Can I just say that that is dependent as well on what David Higgins says in his report, which we hope to have within the next six weeks?

Graham Stringer

Do you have a view, once you have confirmed the routes to Leeds and Manchester, on how quickly a second Hybrid Bill could be produced and presented to Parliament?

Mr McLoughlin

That could be a lot quicker, but, as I say, the big work is the environmental statement that is taking place. Although it will not be going through the same kind of density areas to a degree that phase one will go through as it is in London, there may not be quite as many representations, but it still has to be done properly.

Martin Vickers

Secretary of State, what work is being done on longer-term options for improving services on the existing network when HS2 comes on stream?

Mr McLoughlin

That is something that David Higgins is very committed to and doing quite a lot of work on, as to how we integrate the existing rail network with the new high-speed lines. One of the things that I have often said to colleagues is that you have to look at what is happening at the moment, what happens in Kent, where the Javelin train goes down to Ashford at high speed and then carries on to other places—Canterbury, Dover and Folkestone—on the existing rail network. The integration is probably one of the most important things that we need to work on, and I know David Higgins is giving a lot of thought to that.

Martin Vickers

Much of the argument in favour of HS2 is to encourage economic development. Clearly, once you have extra capacity on the existing network, options are available to do the same for regions off the HS2 line.

Mr McLoughlin

More so than that as well. That is absolutely correct, but what is also an option is to get greater utilisation of those existing railways as far as freight is concerned because we have seen quite remarkable growths in freight, but at the moment the thing that is curtailing that, particularly on the west coast main line, is availability and capacity, as freight tends to travel slower and therefore you have problems if you get a freight train holding up passengers.

Martin Vickers

Will that work involve local authorities, industry, the LEPs and so on?

Mr McLoughlin

Definitely.

Chair

Are the Government being proactive in that area? It is very apparent that some regions are much more involved than others in looking at how to use existing lines that would be freed by development of High Speed 2 and looking at regional economic impacts. Is the Department or are other parts of Government being proactive in looking at where this work is happening and where it is lagging behind?

Mr McLoughlin

I would agree with you on that. There are varying degrees of certain areas that have been incredibly forward-looking and thinking about the future and other areas which perhaps have just regarded HS2 as something which does not affect them. HS2 will change the rail environment substantially in this country and I think will have beneficial impacts right across the country, so that will be something that they will get more and more tuned in to.

Jason McCartney

Secretary of State, just to come back to the first issue about building from the north, David Higgins was on the BBC “Look North” programme last week, which I managed to see because it was the half‑term recess. He was categorical—that was the headline given—that he sees no reason why we can’t start building from the north. You have already given some views on that, but can’t you see how important it is to get support in the north for that to happen?

Chair

Are those comments something you would welcome, Secretary of State?

Mr McLoughlin

I am not in any way opposed to it. All I am merely doing is saying that there are stages that we have to go through. I would just point out that, with HS2, there were 19 judicial reviews. We won 18 of those judicial reviews right the way up to the Supreme Court, and therefore I am very reluctant to lay myself open to further judicial reviews where I might not be quite as successful if I have not gone through the proper process. I am keen and I am awaiting David’s report. That will be very important, and if there are ways in which we can speed up the process then I am more than open to that. But it is a big project and it is not a project to be rushed. It is a big project and we have got to get it right.

Jason McCartney

Would you agree, though, that we do need to speed up the process? You have referred to The Railway Magazine there. Certainly, I find that we have a wealth of well-meaning rail enthusiasts in this country and I have already been given about 400 different options of routes, ideas and thoughts, which are all very well- meaning; but the longer the process continues, it is almost as if there will just be more and more and more debate, and it will actually never happen.

Mr McLoughlin

Look, you are summarising one of the problems. If you have 400, I am sure I probably have the same 400, if not more, so it is something we need to address. The line-up we are getting as far as HS2 is concerned shows that we are very serious about it. It will make a major impact. The Chancellor’s statement about the future and what could be the options for Euston station are also very interesting indeed.

Jason McCartney

My constituency neighbour is the shadow Transport Secretary for Wakefield. How robust would you say the political consensus on this is at the moment?

Mr McLoughlin

I was with Mary when they opened the new station in Wakefield. Whenever I have been with Mary, she has been very robust in her support for High Speed 2. Big infrastructure projects, by their very nature, are always controversial during their planning and their development stage. Usually, once they are developed, people say, “Why haven’t we done this a long time ago?”

Chair

Has any more work been commissioned on the regional impact of HS2?

Mr McLoughlin

That sort of work is being done by local authorities and by us overall as to the regional impacts and is one of the things that David is looking at, as to how we—partly the question you made a few minutes ago, Madam Chair, about the way in which other areas and other regions feed into the benefits of HS2.

Mr Sanders

We did have this KPMG study that indicated that there are at least three regions of the country that will be adversely affected as a consequence of HS2. Is that being fed into Government planning in order to ensure that those reasons do not lag further behind, should HS2 go ahead as planned?

Mr McLoughlin

This is the case whenever you look at a major infrastructure project, whether it is road or rail. If we do improvements on the A303, I am not sure they will have much benefit in Derby. Crossrail certainly will not have much beneficial impact in Birmingham or Manchester, but it is very important for London as a capital city, as a world leader as a capital city, to have a good transport infrastructure. The United Kingdom gets the benefit as a result of good infrastructure spending in London, so I would argue that some of the direct benefits may not reach out to everybody. Overall, it is a benefit for the United Kingdom. I noted that one of the areas which was said to lose was Aberdeen. I am not sure I ever made the case for HS2 as far as Aberdeen was concerned. I did make it as far as serving Scotland is concerned and a benefit for Scotland, which certainly it is. Indeed, when I met with the leaders of the councils, the Mayor of Bristol gave total support to HS2 as a vital part of infrastructure in the United Kingdom.

Mr Sanders

I am not surprised that the Mayor of Bristol would do that, but I am not entirely sure that the Mayor of Torbay would share the Mayor of Bristol’s view. He is sat behind you and you can talk to him later.

Mr McLoughlin

He will probably talk to me.

Mr Sanders

The big difference here is not that these regions don’t benefit; it is that these regions actually are set back. They actually find that their economies go into reverse as a consequence of HS2. I just don’t think any Government should allow any region to fall behind as a consequence of £50 billion of taxpayers’ investment, which includes the taxpayers of those regions who are going to fall behind.

Mr McLoughlin

I completely agree with you, and that is why we would have to look at other bits of infrastructure investment which serve those areas as well. That is partly what I was trying to allude to in my remarks as far as the A303 was concerned.

Chair

Does that mean that you will be giving specialist attention to other rail infrastructure projects in areas that are set to lose on HS2?

Mr McLoughlin

I don’t necessarily accept the preface of the question that certain areas lose as a result. Overall, the gain for the country is significant. What we then have to do is to service other areas that don’t gain as a direct result possibly of HS2 with other infrastructure investments in their areas. Indeed, down in the south‑west, we are doing a number of road improvements at the moment and some new roads, but that is just part of the overall infrastructure investment for the United Kingdom.

Chair

I would now like to turn to rail franchising, which is another issue that has concerned the Committee. A lot has happened or a lot has been proposed since the debacle on the west coast InterCity. Can you tell us what has now changed in terms of rail franchising, the staffing and expertise involved, and any other factors?

Mr McLoughlin

If we go back to the very first time I appeared two days after my appointment to the Department, it was just at the time when the Department had agreed the west coast new franchise. That was, in the end, found to be wanting and had to be cancelled. I commissioned a total review of rail franchising in the Department for Transport. That was done by two people: one by Richard Brown, which was to look more at the longer-term future of franchising, and one by Sam Laidlaw to look at the specific issues as to what went wrong with the Department. A lot of things have followed from that, which we have discussed in the past. One of the things that Richard Brown recommended in his report was that we should set up a separate group within the Department to do rail franchising. I am in a position of being able to make more progress on this shortly and, hopefully, making a more detailed announcement tomorrow, but we will be setting up a rail executive in the central Department, and that rail executive will build on the existing rail group, which has franchising back on track. Certainly, from some of the companies I have spoken to, they are very complimentary now of the way in which the rail franchising group is working. That will bring in some more commercial elements, which was needed to bolster that particular section of the Department. That announcement will be made tomorrow.

Chair

How many contractors or secondees from the rail industry have you brought into the Department?

Mr McLoughlin

I don’t have that exact figure at this stage. I can certainly write to you and to the Committee with the exact details on that, following tomorrow’s written ministerial statement.

Chair

It would be helpful if you could do that. As part of the consequence of the breakdown in franchising that occurred, you awarded several existing franchisees with short‑term contracts to cover the period until the Department could reorganise itself. A lot of concerns were expressed about whether these deals were indeed value for money. Can you tell us whether you have assessed that and what your findings are?

Mr McLoughlin

They will continue to be assessed. What I did, if we go back, was to issue a document which set out, on the backdrop of the Brown report, what the overall timetable would be over the next three to four years as to getting the whole franchising completely back to where we had originally set it from. We have been making good progress on that. It is very difficult ever to compare one particular short‑term franchise or, indeed, any franchise with another, partly because of the changes which may be taking place as far as rolling stock and track enhancements are concerned. One of the things that has held back First Great Western is the amount of electrification—the electrification from Reading to Bristol and beyond—and when that actually comes into play, and the new rolling stock, which will be on part of that route, part of that franchise, with the IEP trains which will be delivered from 2017 onwards.

Chair

According to Which?, FirstGroup, Thameslink, Great Western, Abellio and Greater Anglia have some very dissatisfied customers. Are you aware of that and has that been addressed?

Mr McLoughlin

I did see the Which? report. The Which? report do their research differently from the way in which Passenger Focus do their research. I am not dismissing it because it gives us some important points as to where information comes from and it helps us build a picture, so I do not dismiss those findings at all by Which? But, if my memory is right, it is a self‑selecting group that fill in online the questions on their website, as opposed to something which is done by Passenger Focus, which is much more longer term.

Martin Vickers

Secretary of State, you referenced the proposed partnership arrangements for the Northern/TransPennine franchise. You are aware of the concern among some of the local authorities on the fringe and not part of the core metropolitan areas that they may be left out of any input into it. How has that been addressed?

Mr McLoughlin

It was one of the questions that I did very specifically put to the Northern group when I went to Manchester a few weeks ago to meet them. They assured me they would be addressing that. Obviously, I will want to watch that very carefully, and if there is a problem there I will want to revisit what we are doing, but I very much hope that we can get greater co‑operation and involve very much local authorities in future franchising, specifically on the routes that are most concerned with commuting through and around as far as their constituents and your constituents are concerned, as well as mine in North East Derbyshire as well, because the very northern part of my constituency covers the TransPennine route as well.

Martin Vickers

How much real say will the authorities have? We know the key metropolitan areas will have the bulk of the voting power, and ultimately it is votes that decide these things.

Mr McLoughlin

We have not completely changed over yet. I will want to make sure that the right kind of facility is in place which reassures your constituents and reassures my constituents as well.

Jason McCartney

I was just going to press on that as well, because I was on a Northern train last Thursday in my patch from Slaithwaite to Huddersfield, about whether it is just advising or lobbying. How much of an actual say will the northern councils have, and how much do you see this being a model that we can use in other parts of the country as well? So there are two parts to the question.

Mr McLoughlin

It is a model that we can use in other parts of the country if it is successful; that is what it comes down to. It comes down to how we best provide the services for our constituents and their electors, as well as our constituents, as far as regeneration and better timetabling of services are concerned. Local authorities can bring a lot to that sphere of negotiations. There is no doubt, in my mind, if there is the right kind of working relationship. If they do want to make certain changes, can they be funded? Can they be built into the programme that is being looked at as far as franchising is concerned? We need to give it a chance to see.

Jason McCartney

My constituents are also very interested in the east coast main line franchising. You have already said, as a result of the Brown review, you are going to have one single director general of rail franchising. Are you going to announce more details about that tomorrow or is the person in place already?

Mr McLoughlin

No, the person is not in place, but I will be saying that I hope to recruit them very shortly.

Graham Stringer

Just following up those last two questions, the partnership for the Northern and TransPennine express franchises were not exactly as originally envisaged, were they? There is slightly less of a role for the local authorities. How would you describe their role exactly? Is it advisory? Can they veto things? What is it, and do you envisage their role growing if this model is successful?

Mr McLoughlin

It stretches. The Northern rail project stretches over 33 local authorities. That is a huge amount of different local authorities.

Graham Stringer

One local authority is difficult enough.

Mr McLoughlin

You might say that. I don’t think I would like to comment, but it does stretch over 33 local authorities. If we can get a good working relationship between the local authorities, the franchising companies and the Department for Transport, then we service our constituents, the electors and the residents in those areas better. It is worth giving it a try, and I do pay tribute to the work that Richard Leese has done in bringing this forward. We have the person—sorry, I have just had name block—from Merseyrail who is going to be leading as far as this is concerned, so it is about finding a better service. It is a very expensive service overall in subsidy terms that we are running on northern line transport—Northern particularly, not as northern, southern and TransPennine. As you, Mr Stringer, will know, it is also at the moment the subject of some real major investment as far as the Northern Hub is concerned. We are going to have—I am sure the Chair will be quite pleased about this—the first non‑stop route from Manchester to Liverpool reinstated, and that will start to make some big differences. That is the start of the rollout of the Northern Hub.

Graham Stringer

Just on the Laidlaw review, I caricature it, but one of the problems that Laidlaw pointed to was that, as soon as anybody understood what was happening on the franchise on the west coast main line, they were disqualified from being part of it. So you had this absurd situation where the Permanent Secretary and the Secretary of State were all sidelined for it. Do you have your finger on the pulse? Are you in control of the new franchising operation? Has that problem been solved?

Mr McLoughlin

Well, I very much hope so. Time will tell, and, no doubt, if I have not, I am assisted in it. Peter Wilkinson was brought in specifically to help manage the franchise system, along with Clare Moriarty, who is the director general responsible for rail within the Department. A lot of valuable lessons were learned from that, and I am also assisted, of course, by Parliamentary Under-Secretary Stephen Hammond.

Graham Stringer

You are involved in the detail of that franchising process; the responsibility is yours.

Mr McLoughlin

I will meet with officials at appropriate stages to be informed and taken forward as to how they are dealing with the process. That is what you will expect. I am involved in the key considerations of decisions about the direction of individual franchise competitions, and, as I say, I am ably supported by Stephen Hammond in taking forward these specific issues. Obviously, the commercial negotiations and discussions that go on are not something which I get directly involved in.

Graham Stringer

I wish you every success, but if things go wrong who is responsible?

Mr McLoughlin

The Secretary of State.

Graham Stringer

Right. You have said you did not know quite how many people were seconded in.

Mr McLoughlin

I can’t give you that figure.

Graham Stringer

That is fair enough. I wouldn’t expect you to carry that figure around. What I would expect you to know, though, is whether the Department is now fully resourced to carry out this franchising.

Mr McLoughlin

There is still some more recruitment we would like to do, but it is better resourced than it was to do this job.

Graham Stringer

Can you send us a note, as well as the secondees, on where you are up to on this?

Mr McLoughlin

Yes; of course I will.

Chair

Thank you very much, Secretary of State. Oral evidence: Transport’s winter resilience, HC 1087 21