Oral evidence: Draft Modern Slavery Bill, HC [1019], Tuesday 25 February 2014
Oral evidence, 25 February 2014.
Witnesses
Catriona MacSween, Aberlour, and Graham O’Neill, Scottish Refugee Council, examined.
Chairman
Thank you very much for coming, particularly as I assume you have come from Scotland. We are very grateful to you for coming to advise us on how the Scottish system is working; you will have noticed that you got no criticism. Would you be kind enough to give your names and to say who you are for the record?
Catriona MacSween
My name is Catriona MacSween. I am the service manager from the Scottish guardianship service, which is delivered by Aberlour, which is a children’s charity in Scotland.
Graham O’Neill
My name is Graham O’Neill. I am a policy officer at the Scottish Refugee Council and which has been a partner with Aberlour.
Chairman
You work together, I suspect.
Graham O’Neill
Yes, we do.
Chairman
That is great.
Michael Connarty
I have the pleasure of welcoming you both to give us evidence. I have been following what happens in Scotland very closely. We would like to hear from you about what practical difference the guardianship scheme in Scotland has made to the care and welfare of the children involved—what you think has been achieved. That will give you a chance to talk to us about what you think is beneficial about the scheme. Has it helped to identify trafficked children who might not have been identified without a guardian? Is there any evidence on that? Would you like to talk us through what you think we should know about the scheme and how it is working?
Catriona MacSween
There are a number of practical benefits to having a guardian. Just to be clear, we work with unaccompanied asylum-seeking children as well as trafficked children. It is only children from outside the EU, so they are all subject to immigration control. I will probably refer to them—
Chairman
I wonder—
Michael Connarty
I would probably advise you—
Chairman
Michael, please—
Michael Connarty
You are like the rest of the Scots, so I would probably advise you to slow down.
Chairman
Michael, please—just a moment. I am having slight difficulty in hearing; I must be getting slightly deaf. Do you think you could keep your voice up?
Catriona MacSween
Okay. As I said, we work with children who are unaccompanied asylum-seeking children as well as trafficked children. They are all from outside the EU, so they are all subject to immigration control. We have developed a child-centred model based on personal testimonies of separated children about what they need and what they think is helpful to help them through the complex processes they find themselves in. The guardians provide a safety net for these children. They are a consistent person who is in this person’s life pretty much from day one. They work with the children from the start, from integration to possible return, until a durable solution is found. Based on what separated children have told us about, we developed 14 modules of work, which we work through with the children. It can be anything from understanding confidentiality, understanding the roles of people in their life, understanding what trafficking is—the concept of trafficking as well as the trafficking process—to credibility. It is a very structured piece of work. It is not just your luck if you happen to be with a social worker, for example, who gives you some of this information—the guardian will ensure that each child goes through each of these modules, so that they have the information to help them to navigate these complex systems. They build trusting relationships with young people because we think that will help. There has been evidence that young people will disclose more information based on the relationship that is developed with their guardian. They work with young people in both formal and informal settings to develop that relationship. Guardians commit a lot more time than social workers probably have available, because we feel that the trusting relationship really is key to helping young people through this process. We also attend key interviews with young people. We go along to Home Office interviews, sit in on age assessment interviews and go to legal appointments with young people. We are now embedded in the social work care planning meetings as well. It is not a passive role but very much an active role. We will be assertive, committed watchdogs—we make sure that we defend the rights of the child, that decisions are taken in their best interests and that young people’s wishes and views are heard and involved in all the decisions that are made about them. We also offer participation activities to young people. We offer groups that we run in the evenings and activities for young people. It is really important for young people to come along and meet other young people who have shared experiences, having been potentially trafficked or seeking asylum in the UK. That gives young people an opportunity to build some of their first friendships and reduce their isolation, and gives them time just to relax, have fun and do normal teenage things. We had an independent evaluation of guardianship, which found that the capacity of the young person to deal with issues in relation to his or her asylum or trafficking claim is often contingent on having a general sense of well-being and feeling socially embedded and connected, so this is a really important aspect of the guardian’s role. We work across three key domains: asylum, trafficking, and well-being and social networks.
Graham O’Neill
Just to develop Catriona’s point—
Michael Connarty
I suggest that you speak up. We Scots have very soft accents, not the estuary accent we are used to down here.
Graham O’Neill
Just to expand on Catriona’s point about the importance of social connections, we know that Kathleen Marshall, the ex-Commissioner for Children and Young People in Scotland, mentioned to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, when it was conducting its inquiry into the human rights of unaccompanied children and young people, the importance of the social connections dimension of the Scottish guardianship service to promote or restore some of the resilience for children and young people who are unaccompanied in the UK—to give them a sense of normalisation and stability through doing normal teenage things. Because that promoted their resilience, it enabled them to be more actively involved and maybe more prepared to disclose information in relation to some of the substantive processes they were going through, particularly asylum processes. Without going ahead to questions that will come forward later, we think that is a really important dimension around lessons to learn for designing a guardianship service in relation to trafficked children as well. The social connections dimension is a very important aspect to build into any guardianship model that you take forward. Another aspect we found in terms of practical differences is that, as one would expect, over time—in years 2 and 3 of the pilot of the Scottish guardianship service—the guardian became the hub for various other services. That is intentional, of course—it is what one wants to see and is common ground. Irrespective of whether or not you are a legal guardian, it is important practically to have that person as the hub. They can then be the co-ordinator of various services, not least because they are the person who knows the child’s or young person’s needs and circumstances, because they have the trust of that child or young person. They can speak with most authority with social services, police, the UK Border Agency and now Home Office immigration and visas. It is a really important point that they are the hub for knitting services around the child or young person going forward. We think it has made a number of positive practical differences for children and young people in the service. It is a very empowering programme. As Catriona mentioned, we have 14 educational modules and a detailed practice framework. It is very important to note that we deliberately got two very high-quality, respected, independent evaluators from the start. One of the lessons to take forward is to have high-quality, independent evaluation at the start of guardianship. A reflexive methodology was employed, so that we could learn lessons as we went forward—and we did learn lessons as we went forward. We also found that that was a very effective way of having influence, when we reported the findings of the pilot. People knew who these evaluators were and respected them as independent academics in their own right. The two individuals were, among other things, the advisers to the inquiry by the Joint Committee on Human Rights into the human rights of unaccompanied children and young people. That is a very important step that we took early on. We think it bore fruit, especially because of their influence with the Scottish Government in moving the pilot into a service.
Michael Connarty
Can I follow up with a couple of questions? I asked specifically whether it had helped to identify trafficked children. Has it had any influence on the process of people presenting themselves as being trafficked and admitting they are victims? Secondly, what about the effect on what we have been told about what happens in the local authority system in England, where lots of the young people go missing? What is the record in terms of those people remaining within the system? Is there a rate of loss—of people disappearing from the system?
Catriona MacSween
In answer to the first question, I would say that guardians have made a difference in identifying children who have been trafficked, particularly with local authorities outside Glasgow, where it is probably rarer for a young person to be found. Quite often, local authorities and social workers do not have the awareness or the experience of working with trafficked young people, and it has been the guardian who has identified indicators on a number of occasions. They have helped the social work department. The guardians in Scotland are not first responders, but we do help social workers to understand what is necessary to complete an NRM. Even in Glasgow, there have been occasions in evidence when, because a young person has not seen themselves as being a victim of trafficking, it has taken time for them to disclose information and the information has become available at a later date, when they have built trust with the guardian, who has been able to pass that information on to social workers. What was the second question?
Michael Connarty
It was about people falling out of the system—being involved with a guardian and disappearing.
Catriona MacSween
The statistics to date are that we have had 45 young people who have presented with indicators of trafficking. In about three and a half years, we have had four young people who have gone missing from care. They have all been Vietnamese and have all been based in local authorities outside Glasgow. Quite often, when young people are based outside Glasgow, in a local authority where there are no other separated children, they can feel quite isolated. Their contact with the guardian is probably not as frequent because they are outside Glasgow. The fact that possibly local authorities have not put the right safety measures in place for that child is another reason why they may have gone missing from care. I suppose that the number is less than 10%. It is interesting that they have all been outside Glasgow’s local authority. There is something to be said for having a community in Glasgow where they can meet up with other young people and see that they are not alone and that other young people are going through a similar experience. The frequency of seeing their guardian is really important as well. Those are just my initial thoughts—it has not been evidenced—about why young people outside Glasgow are the ones who have gone missing.
Graham O’Neill
Just to add—
Chairman
We have to move on, as I am getting a little concerned about time. You may be able to make the point when answering Alicia’s question.
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley
The Scottish guardian model is not underpinned by statute, so you have no legal status. What problems did this create, and how did you try to overcome them? Have you overcome them?
Graham O’Neill
We are getting there. We found that there were some occasional and early problems, which we expected, in terms of professional territorialism and understandable confusion about what the role of the guardian was, particularly in relation to social work and child protection. That is something that was foreseeable and that we did foresee. It needed to be worked through through clarity and communication with the professionals, to reassure them that the raison d’être of the guardian and independent advocate was the well-being of the child or young person—the same raison d’être as that of the social worker and all the other individuals involved in the case. Putting it really frankly, there were some early problems around ensuring that the guardian always had a seat around the table. We needed to work that through, particularly with social services and the then UK Border Agency. We did that, particularly in year 2 of the pilot, when we developed a protocol to make it very clear that it was right in principle and very helpful in practice to everybody that the guardian was always around the table. To be very frank, there were some early issues, which we got over. We have always recognised the importance of the legal status question. We very much respect the very strong and well-detailed calls, predominantly in England, in relation to that, and we built it into our independent evaluation. We found that about a third felt that legal status would be helpful, a third felt that it would not be and a third said that they did not know. That was during the evaluation, so people were still getting their head around what the role of the guardian was in relation to this particularly vulnerable group of unaccompanied children and young people. It was inconclusive at that point. Everybody’s bottom line in this is what are the best interests and best outcomes for the child or young person. As you would hope and expect, the Scottish guardianship service remains, and will continue to remain, ever watchful of the legal status question. If we see that there are particular issues, such as increases in the number of children and young people going missing from care in Scotland, of course we will get into discussions with the Scottish Government and others about those, to make sure that they keep a close eye on them. One point that is worth mentioning is that we do not think that the situation in Scotland in terms of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children and, indeed, in terms of trafficked children is directly comparable to the situation in England—for five reasons. First, the numbers are far smaller in Scotland for both groups, recognising the overlap between them. There is also a significant geographical concentration of the young people, predominantly in Glasgow, which is partly a legacy of the implementation of the Immigration and Asylum Act and the dispersal programme from April 2000 onwards. That has enriched Glasgow and other parts of Scotland greatly in terms of ethnic and faith diversity, but it is not surprising that most of the expertise is in Glasgow, as Catriona said. That is a great model for other parts of Scotland going forward, particularly in terms of the trafficking issue, where we need more systematically to raise awareness of trafficking indicators across Scotland. Of course, the guardian or independent advocate is a very effective protection mechanism to make sure that awareness is raised. As Catriona mentioned, we have found that in relation to the identification of potential survivors of trafficking who have been in contact with the Scottish guardianship service. The Glasgow model also comprises established relationships of trust and confidence with key agencies: the Scottish Refugee Council, which I have the privilege to work for; Aberlour Child Care Trust, which Catriona works for; the Legal Services Agency; and the Glasgow city council child protection committee. Importantly, the organisations know one another and have protocols to work with one another in relation to vulnerable children and vulnerable adults. All the stuff everybody here is familiar with is in place in Glasgow, which is a really effective protection measure in itself. Just to state the obvious point, there are some different policy frameworks in legislation in Scotland as well. Recognising that the two parts are not directly comparable, we still found that independent advocacy from the Scottish guardianship service was really valued by the various professionals. Even when you have really effective multi-agency working, it was recognised in the independent pilot, particularly from year 2 and year 3, that there was real added value from the independent advocate. Even when other conditions are good, it is important to have an independent advocate and a guardian. That is the critical point to take forward if we are looking to design guardianship models in other parts of the UK.
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley
Thank you, Graham, that is helpful. Would you support the assigning of parental responsibility to the guardians in Scotland? If so, what difference do you think that would make to your work?
Graham O’Neill
In terms of the Scottish guardianship service, assigning parental responsibility, which is obviously about legal status, is bound up with the question of our being ever watchful of the need for that. We work very closely with the Scottish Government and others in relation to that. We are always on the watch for whether that is a step that we want to take. As everybody knows, the Scottish guardianship service is in relation to unaccompanied children and young people in terms of asylum. Of course, that is a vulnerable group, but trafficked children are a more deeply vulnerable group, if anything, as we know that there is a history of exploitation there. Article 16 of the EU human trafficking directive is the latest manifestation of the principle, which is recognised in international law on human trafficking, of the particular vulnerability of trafficked children. Going forward, we will therefore be continuing discussions with the Scottish Government and others about how we ensure that all child trafficking survivors, not just those from outside the EEA, are benefiting from the guardianship approach. We have had a great precedent in Scotland in terms of the support we have had from the Scottish Government and will continue to work that through in relation to all survivors of trafficking—from the UK and, within that, from Scotland, and from throughout the EU and EEA.
Chairman
Can I ask for short questions and short replies? We are running out of time.
Sir Andrew Stunell
I understand that you have had 45 cases in three years. Could you tell me something about the case load of each guardian in respect of the children they are supervising?
Catriona MacSween
Each guardian has approximately 25 cases. They are a combination of some children who have been trafficked and some who are claiming asylum; pretty much every child who has been trafficked is also claiming asylum. Each child is at a different stage of the process. At the beginning, when they are new, there is a lot of activity because they are attending legal appointments and there is a lot going on. A lot of the educational modules that we deliver are at the start, when we are trying to build a trusting relationship. The case loads fluctuate sometimes. If a child has had a decision, even if it is only for temporary leave, there is not much happening in their case at that time. Because the cases fluctuate, the guardians can manage a significant case load at any one time.
Mrs Spelman
It strikes me that you cannot take parental responsibility for 25 children. That has suddenly altered my understanding of what this guardian is doing. It may be a bit early to answer this question, but what is the typical skill set of a guardian? What sort of attrition rate do you have? Of the 25, how many children fall off that case load—and what happens at 18?
Catriona MacSween
What was the first part of the question?
Mrs Spelman
What is the typical skill set? Do they stick with the same child up to the age of 18? What happens to the young person after the age of 18?
Catriona MacSween
The typical skill set required is that they have to straddle both child welfare and having an understanding of the trafficking, asylum and immigration processes. Each guardian, including myself, is a qualified level 2 adviser under the Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner. They all have experience of working with children, whether it is within a social work setting or within a youth work setting, so they have to have a skill set of understanding child development and understanding trauma and how that affects a child; I speak as someone who works with victims of torture. They have a really broad skill set and need to straddle both the children’s sector and the asylum and trafficking sector. That is why the partnership between the two organisations works really well. One is a children’s organisation and the other is a refugee organisation, so it has expertise in both areas. They have to be very good communicators with children. It is not just a matter of dumbing down the language you use; it is about identifying children’s educational needs, development needs and cognitive abilities.
Chairman
Ian, can we have a quick question and a quick answer?
Lord McColl of Dulwich
How many guardians are there? What were they doing before they were guardians?
Catriona MacSween
Initially, during the pilot, there were four guardians. It was reduced to three guardians due to funding. We have two guardians who are on a relief basis; we have one based up in the highlands, whom we can use as and when required, and one based down in Dumfries and Galloway, if we get any children in that area. At the moment, all the guardians who work within the service previously worked with the Scottish Refugee Council, but all have other experience. We had one who had worked for the Scottish Refugee Council but was also a qualified social worker. I act as a guardian for some young people as well. I have experience of both sectors, having sat in the children’s hearings system in Scotland and worked for the local authority, as well as for the Scottish Refugee Council. I have a balance of both.
Lord McColl of Dulwich
So how many guardians are there?
Catriona MacSween
There are three full-time guardians, and I act as a guardian for about 10 young people.
Chairman
Because we are running out of time, I will not ask you the last two questions. Could you write and tell us what you think are the main requirements of a guardian, together with what advice you would like to give to us? Would you mind putting that on paper?
Catriona MacSween
Certainly.
Graham O’Neill
That is fine.
Chairman
Could you just e-mail it to us? We are extremely grateful to you both for coming from Scotland. It has been very valuable to us to hear what the Scottish set-up is. What is so interesting in what you have been saying is the good relationship that you have achieved with all of the other professionals. One of the areas in this country that may be much more difficult is having a good relationship between an independent guardian and a local authority, which may or may not welcome them when they go in, but you have not had that problem in Scotland. If I may say so, it is impressive that the guardianship service is obviously so good. Thank you very much for coming.
Catriona MacSween
Thank you.
Graham O’Neill
Thank you.
Chairman
When you write to us, could you also tell us how long the guardian stays with a particular trafficked child or asylum-seeking child? I know you deal with asylum-seeking children as well. We would also be very grateful if you could tell us how you see them off at 18 and what you do for them. Oral evidence: [Draft Modern Slavery Bill] 21