Oral evidence: Draft Modern Slavery Bill, HC [1019], Tuesday 4 March 2014
Oral evidence, 4 March 2014.
Witness
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen, Dutch National Rapporteur on Trafficking in Human Beings and Sexual Violence against Children, examined.
Chairman
Corinne, welcome. Might you identify yourself for the sake of the record?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
My name is Corinne Dettmeijer. I am the Dutch national rapporteur on human trafficking and sexual violence against children.
Chairman
As you know, we have a series of questions for you. One of the things we are hoping to tease from you is: how do we fulfil the Home Secretary’s wish to increase significantly the number of successful prosecutions? If you think we have failed to elicit the full answers on that from you, may we come back at the end and ask you for any concluding comments that you could make to help us? Alastair, might you begin?
The Lord Bishop of Derby
Thank you very much for coming to talk to us. This is a general question about the impact of your office since it was formed in 2000, in terms of protection of victims, prosecutions, Government policy and the attitude of the public and business. In those areas, what has been the impact of having a rapporteur?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Maybe I should be modest, but I will not.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
No, don’t! Keep on.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
The impact has been enormous. When I started in 2006, and issued my first report, the communication adviser in the Dutch Ministry of Justice said, “Madam, who is waiting for your report?” The situation has changed dramatically. Everybody is waiting for the data I give and the research projects I do. One of the main things, of course, is the independent stature of my office. It has now even been put down in a law—there is a law on the national rapporteur to emphasise their independence and to see to it that it will be a continuous thing. What has been the impact? I will name a few.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
Specifically in terms of victims and prosecutions.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
I was very worried about the rate of convictions and of unsuccessful prosecutions. Even compared with rape cases, which are also sometimes difficult to prove, the number of acquittals was dramatic. I did research into the rulings by judges on human trafficking. My first research project got attention but did not really result in the specialisation of judges. In the meantime, the specialisation of prosecutors had improved the way the prosecution worked. In my second piece of research into the rulings, I was a little less hesitant in my wording. I called the head of the judiciary and said, “You can have headlines in the newspapers that the judges don’t know anything about human trafficking, or you can have headlines that the judiciary have decided to go to specialised judges.” This is not something that got into the newspapers, but it exemplifies how I work. I gave them all the credit and now we have specialised judges, because that was the result that I wanted. Maybe that illustrates the way I work. I am not about naming and shaming if I do not have to. I start with the softer approach, trying to get things done behind the scenes.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
Have you been able to do that for victims, to give them more confidence to participate in the process?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Taking care of victims is not a soft issue. Protecting victims and prosecuting criminals are two sides of the same coin. If you get that into people’s heads, the way they look at protecting victims shifts, which is really necessary. They are victims, but they are human beings and should be treated respectfully—and we need them to get the criminals behind bars. If you do not see that and you see protecting victims as only a soft way, you let criminals get away with all the things they do.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
Could you give us an example of how you have had a harder approach to helping victims?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
We invested a lot in training. For instance, in the last phase, just before illegal people have to leave the country, our immigration services detect victims of human trafficking on a scale of 30 or 35 per annum, which is an extreme example of how the immigration services are sensitised to human trafficking. This is a result of training but also of trust. I am trusted not only by NGOs but also by Government institutions. Both entrust me with their data. When a Government institution does a good thing, there is no reason not to name that; the same goes for the NGOs. The impact of my office and my function has also been that of a trait d’union between governmental and non-governmental institutions and has improved the trust between them. They both have their own responsibility towards the fight against human trafficking. When you see that this is a common fight, in the end, you are more effective. Coming back to your question about prosecutions, the number of successful prosecutions has really risen a lot. I have figures on that, which you can see. It has also sensitised the judges—which may be even more important—to what it means to be a victim of trafficking and the importance of avoiding secondary victimisation by the way the victim is treated in the criminal court. Those are all subjects I have dealt with in the past years.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
What kind of impact have you had on business opinion, in terms of the supply trade and businesses generally?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Business is mostly influenced by the public—the behaviour of buying or not buying. Nevertheless, I have also reached out to businesses. We have had a very good scheme with hotel personnel. That was something that the police did, but I also intervened in it. The hotel branch in the Netherlands has really been sensitised to hotel prostitution, which is illegal prostitution and very often involves victims of trafficking.
Chairman
If I were a slave victim in your country, who would be the person or people who would identify me as a victim? Would there be a set menu of care, once I was identified, that I could gain from you?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
The identification now lies primarily with the police. When the police or military police come upon a situation of trafficking, at the slightest indication that someone may be a victim of trafficking they will refer that person to an NGO, which will take care of their registration and shelter. The presumed victim will then have a three-month reflection period to think about whether or not they want to complain or file charges. Sometimes, victims will work together with the police and will testify, but are anxious about filing charges. One of my recommendations was to equalise this co-operation with the police. There are times when the police come upon someone they think is a victim but who is too afraid or for whom it is too dangerous to testify. Then it is possible to give the victim a residency permit without their testifying. That does not happen very often, but it is a possibility. We are now thinking of giving the social workers within the shelter a say in this identification process, but that is not a rule in the Netherlands as yet.
Chairman
You said that the NGO registers their status. Does it register it with you or with an arm of government?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
It registers this on my behalf. I get its data, analyse them and compare them with data from the Government. I do not do the registration myself—my staff is not large enough for that—but you could do it in such a way. If any person would be equipped to take in the registration of all the different players in the field, it would be a national rapporteur. It is done on my behalf. I have access to all these data and publish them.
Sir Andrew Stunell
The Bill that we are considering proposes an anti-slavery commissioner. How do you think that compares with your role? What do you see as the differences, strengths and weaknesses?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
First, in my view, independence is quite an important element. Why is it so important? If you worked for the Government, you could not pull off what I did with my research on the judiciary—the judges would not really believe you or care for you meddling. They would see that as political, which would make it difficult. Being independent, for me there was no restriction in doing that. My independence also makes for trust between the NGOs and the governmental institutions. I am not an NGO. NGOs are extremely important in this field, but for a rapporteur it is better to keep some distance. I do not look at individual cases; I have a helicopter view. Of course I am involved, in the sense that if you do not have any passion for this field you should seek another job, but if you have too much passion it is not effective. The effectiveness lies in the independence and the in-between role that I have.
Sir Andrew Stunell
Could you say something about your organisational relationship with the Government? You can be independent, but are you funded by or do you report to a particular Department?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
I am funded by five Departments, but there is only one Department that sees to it that I get my money. I have a very broad mandate. I just have to report on the scale and nature of human trafficking, which leaves room for a lot of innovative action and creativity in acting upon things that I see. It is not like ticking off the boxes—I have very clever, scientific, academic staff who do this.
Sir Andrew Stunell
In your evidence so far, you have mentioned that your role has evolved and that you now have some statutory protection and so on. Do you think your remit has reached the point it needs to get to, or do you still have aspirations for the role developing even further?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
You should always look further because circumstances change. Do I think I should grow? No, probably not. A monitoring body should never outgrow the people who really do the work. In that respect, I have achieved the growth that I need. Yes, the Government pay for me and for my housing, but I am free in all the rest of the stuff. Independence is also a little between the ears. I have been a judge for the best part of my career, so this is sort of second nature. Also, when choosing a person like this, maybe you should look for an older person who is at an advanced stage in their career, which helps with their independence. Maybe it also helps with the authority that you have. Parliament in the Netherlands sees me as an authority. It has my reports open when it talks to Ministers on human trafficking issues. Of course I have opinions, but my opinions are always founded on solid research. That lends an authoritative aspect to my role, which is important.
Fiona Mactaggart
You say that parliamentarians have your reports open. Do you report formally to Parliament or to Government?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Formally, I report to Government. The reports go, with the Government’s remarks, to Parliament, but my connections with Parliament are now such that I inform them twice or three times a year on all sorts of issues concerning my mandates. If they want to know anything specific, they call me or my office. If I want them to do something specific, I call them, so there is a lot of stuff going around.
Fiona Mactaggart
You say that your reports are published with the Government’s remarks. Part of our concern is about independence, which you have made much of.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Maybe I did not make myself clear. My reports are published with no Government remarks, but the published reports go to Parliament with the comments of the Minister. It is for Parliament itself to see whether or not the comments are valuable or contradictory to the reports. The reports themselves will not be altered by Government. Nevertheless, if I get my information from certain Government or NGO bodies, I always ask them whether I have got it correct. I send my report to the Government about a week before I publish to enable them to give a reaction.
Fiona Mactaggart
One of the anxieties that this Committee shares is that in the present draft of the Bill the rapporteur role will be conducted by someone who is directly employed by the Home Office, which also deals with matters of immigration. What impact do you think that will have on the capacity of the rapporteur role to be effective?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
I have seen many rapporteurs in the EU network of rapporteurs. Only the Finnish office and my own are independent, so you see quite a difference between the rapporteurs. I am not so afraid of the connection with immigration, because immigration personnel can also be sensitised to detect victims of human trafficking, as they are in the Netherlands. I am much more concerned by the fact that, if you are directly under the Minister, he or she will not really be amused when you criticise their policies. If you want to be an effective rapporteur, you have to criticise, too, because that is the important part. It is not criticising for the sake of criticising, but it is very important not to cover up everything with nice political words.
Fiona Mactaggart
You have made it very clear that the things that you think are really important for a rapporteur are independence and expertise. What about resources? How much resource do you need to be able to sustain that so that you are effective?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
For human trafficking, it would be about €700,000—maybe a little more—plus the housing.
Fiona Mactaggart
What does that get you in terms of people and—
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
That would get me about five researchers, one of whom would be my head of office. Because I am now bigger, with the other mandate, my budget is now €1.2 million and I have 15 people. The housing is also offered free by the Ministry of Justice.
Mrs Spelman
You said that you were trusted by the NGOs. That is a remarkable achievement, but it is central to your data gathering. We face a situation here where NGOs are nervous about giving up their data to government authorities because it may lead to the deportation of trafficking victims. How did you achieve that level of trust? Could you expand a bit on the way you use the NGOs to deliver services to victims?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Maybe the situation in the Netherlands is a little different because there is a lot of co-operation between the different stakeholders, which means persons from immigration services, the police and the NGOs. Of course, that was furthered by me and my predecessor. When the police report a possible victim to the NGO so that it can seek to shelter them, they immediately send a notice to immigration services that they have given the person a reflection period of three months. This working together is part of our national referral mechanism. Once you have a victim who has been identified by the police, that victim should not have an illegal status. There should be a status and all sorts of shelter or other accommodation and services. That is also one of the things in refugee law. There should also be trust in the Government. When reading the Bill and every comment around it, I was struck by the sense that there was a lot of mistrust between different agencies. A rapporteur could take away some of that mistrust. I will give you an example. Our immigration services have a conference each year and usually ask me to open it, to speak or whatever. Once they said to me, “When the ombudsman comes here we all close up and don’t give out any information, but when you come here we really want to share our information with you, because we know that you treat it respectfully and don’t give it out to the media or whatever and you try to help us to do our job better.” The whole human trafficking issue—victims and perpetrators—is something that undermines our society and should affect us all. It should also affect immigration services. We do not want modern slavery in our society. Of course you want to help somebody. That is not a feeling that is limited or given only to NGOs—it is also given to Government officials. This is something that struck me and that I thought you could change a little bit. A rapporteur could do a lot of good on that.
Michael Connarty
You referred to an ombudsman and what they do when the ombudsman comes in. What is the ombudsman? What role do they perform?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
In the Netherlands, the ombudsman reports to Parliament and has a role in individual cases.
Chairman
Aren’t they also there to find fault?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Yes—and they find fault a lot more. I am much more interested in the structures and in how to improve training or knowledge. In my role that is more important than an individual case where something has gone wrong. Of course, somebody has to care about that as well. I am not advocating this, because then too many people would come to me, but there are incidences when I see that something could easily be improved with a telephone call. I will do that in an individual case.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
We are struggling a bit with definitions in the Bill. We are looking at situations where you are not necessarily being moved from place to place but you are found to be in a position of being a slave. You are the national rapporteur on human trafficking. Does that limit you in any way in dealing with issues that are not the movement of victims but where you can see that the victim is in a situation of slavery?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
We do not use the word “slavery” in our human trafficking article—
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I appreciate that.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
You can call it modern slavery as long as it has the aspects of human trafficking. We use practically the exact wording of the Palermo protocol and have adapted our article on human trafficking not just to cover the Palermo protocol but to criminalise all trafficking in women. It is not really my role to criticise on a legal basis, but the Bill does look a little complicated.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
We agree with you on that.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
One of the things that worries me is that it does not use the wording of the Palermo protocol—all the behavioural parts of it. Human trafficking is an international crime that knows no borders. The very object of the Palermo protocol, or any other treaty on crimes, is to facilitate law enforcement from one country to another. If you have a difference in the wording of that, it could mean that the co-operation of Europol or Eurojust does not end in a conviction because the wording is different.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
In this country, we see trafficking as the movement rather than the situation; I think that is what has been happening with our prosecutors. I get the impression that in the Netherlands trafficking is seen as something broader than movement.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
The movement part seems to be part of the Palermo protocol. I say “seems” because it is not really—the harbouring does not need any movement whatsoever. The part in our trafficking Bill that excludes movement and deals with the actual exploitation is our old trafficking in women part. With this Bill, when an illegal person goes to a restaurant, asks for work and is given work for 15 hours a day, for £1 a day, sleeping with 12 people—all the ordinary trafficking signals—I doubt whether that will lead to a trafficking conviction. In the Netherlands, it would undoubtedly lead to a trafficking conviction.
Chairman
But you would not have to prove movement for that. It would not be a defence in the courts.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
No—it would be harbouring. If you gave him a room upstairs, it would be harbouring with the object of exploitation.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
It is a broader definition of trafficking.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Well, it is the Palermo protocol.
Chairman
Yes, it is. That is terrific.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
You talked a bit about working with judges and so on. Have you been able to work with prosecutors to help them to be aware of the interests of victims?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
The work with prosecutors has been there from the beginning, because long before that prosecutors saw the importance of training and specialisation. Of course, they have also seen the undermining effect of human trafficking. One of the things that the prosecution has done very well in the Netherlands, together with the police, is trying to target trafficking situations and traffickers around the victim, so to speak—seeing areas where there is a lot of trafficking and targeting it with observations or tapping of telephones. Once they have a round case, they go to the victims and ask them to co-operate, but even if they do not, they have enough of a case to get it to court. For years now, the prosecution in the Netherlands has been very active in trying to find innovative ways of law enforcement, because traffickers are clever. You might wish that they would put this cleverness into another role, but they are. One of the things that we see is that they do not restrict themselves to trafficking—they dabble in drugs, weapons or whatever gets them a lot of money. You need a prosecution service that does not restrict itself only to trafficking but sees beyond that. Partnerships on all different levels are very important in dealing with trafficking.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
Creating evidence alongside that that can be produced by the victims is very important.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Yes.
Michael Connarty
Are you conscious of working across the boundaries? I have been in Netherlands with the police; we have a police scheme here. They always take me to meet the police in Rotterdam and other places; obviously you have Europol there. Are you conscious that information is being transmitted across and is not based just in the Netherlands?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Yes. On an operational level, police can exchange information, which they sometimes do via Europol but not always—there is a lot of bilateral police information giving. For instance, if we have a lot of Romanian or Hungarian victims, at a police level there is a lot of co-operation with those countries. I think that is beneficial to us both, because if you have a lot of victims from one country you need to seek out that country and try together to get some preventive action started.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
Could I ask further about victims? To what extent can victims’ services and care be enshrined in legislation?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
In the Netherlands it is not in the legislation. At the moment, it is a little diffuse because we are changing our national referral mechanism, but the object is that it will be a binding document, binding on all those concerned. It will therefore give rights to victims.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
How are you changing your national referral mechanism?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
It is going to be much more comprehensive. The police and prosecution were bound by prosecution rules and immigration services were bound by their rules. They have both modernised their way of dealing with this. That led me to give a recommendation that there should be a national referral mechanism that was much broader and should still be binding on all those concerned.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
Lastly, are there any particular protections for child victims? Do you make particular provision for them?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
This is one of my issues. We have a lot of internal trafficking, as does the UK. That means that the ordinary child protection services are the services that are bound to help these victims. What we see in the Netherlands is that they have a problem with indentifying these problems as trafficking. They see it as runaway girls, youth prostitution or all sorts of problems, without really identifying it as a trafficking problem. This was the central issue in my last report. We are changing that now. When we look at foreign juvenile or minor victims, we have a situation in place where a guardian will be appointed. This is nothing to do with trafficking, but every child who comes into the Netherlands unaccompanied will have a guardian appointed. We have seen many west African girls who were victims of trafficking, would be sheltered somewhere and would leave without leaving a trace within seconds of being put there, so we have put in place a sort of closed shelter. It is not closed in the sense of having locks and things like that, but it is in a tiny village. West African girls stand out there, so the police will know when they run away and will take them back.
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley
To get more successful prosecutions, do you think there needs to be legislation around victim care? Would we get fewer prosecutions if we did not have that in our legislation?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Whether it is in legislation or otherwise binding is different in every country, but it should be binding on all concerned. That is very important—also in order to get better prosecutions, because you need the victims. There are other ways of getting prosecutions. Sometimes, the victims are so traumatised that they cannot give evidence, so you should also look for ways of prosecuting without the victims. Every new law needs some time and patience to get into the judicial system; that is just the way it is. It helps to word it as clearly as possible, of course, to help the judiciary to use it in the way it was meant.
Baroness Doocey
A child’s consent to being exploited is irrelevant. Has the Netherlands recognised this through the wording of its legislation on criminal offences?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
I did not really catch the first part.
Baroness Doocey
I will repeat it. A child’s consent to being exploited is irrelevant. Has the Netherlands recognised this through its legislation on criminal offences—for example, by having a separate offence of child exploitation?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
In our article on human trafficking, there is a part on children, which says that all the matters of force or coercion that are needed with adults for it to be considered trafficking are not needed for children. That is in line with the EU directive. It is clear not in the wording but in the notes on the law that the consent of a child is irrelevant, so this is a clear thing. Nevertheless, I have seen judges struggle with this. I have written an article on the point, hoping that it will help in that respect. Judges sometimes have a hard time understanding that a 17-year-old might say, “Yes, I will go into prostitution. Of course I will give you all the money,” but it is irrelevant.
Baroness Doocey
Do you have a separate offence of exploitation—something that would pick up things like domestic servitude and begging?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Yes. Begging and domestic servitude are all part of the intent of exploitation, as worded in the Palermo protocol. We have a different section that criminalises the actual exploitation. In that section, we have a broad wording that means that it is up to the judiciary to fill this in. As I said, traffickers are innovative and will find new ways of exploiting people. I do not think that legislation will be able to keep up with that. That is the reason that it is worded in a way that leaves room for new areas of trafficking.
Baroness Doocey
Do you get many successful prosecutions for exploitation?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Yes—and for begging or selling street newspapers, which is also an area where people are exploited. We had a case of a Roma grandfather who made his 10-year-old granddaughter steal in a supermarket. In the end, this was constituted as human trafficking.
Chairman
Coming back to this point, although “trafficking”, for conventional purposes, is used locally and internationally, what you prosecute on is way beyond that. It is on the exploitation side, isn’t it?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
The exploitation is part of the trafficking. If you look at the EU directive, it is part of it. It is more than just the movement from A to B—it is the whole exploitation part, as well as everything that precedes it. The trafficking part is from the moment that somebody lures or forces somebody with the intent of exploitation.
Chairman
But a slave owner would not get off because you had failed to prove the movement bit in court.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
That is not an issue in the Netherlands.
Chairman
That is interesting.
Mrs Spelman
While we are wrestling with this, in English trafficking means movement.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Of course. It is the same—
Mrs Spelman
Our lawyers are pointing out that people often move of their own volition—they pay good money to come here, not realising that when they get here they will be exploited. That is what we are wrestling with.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
You are not the only country wrestling with that. The word “trafficking” was not the best choice, but now that we are stuck with it we should use it in the way that it was meant. The exploitation part is the important part of the trafficking article.
Mrs Spelman
Absolutely.
Chairman
That is really good.
Lord Warner
Could I ask you some questions about the mechanisms in the Netherlands for the recovery of assets from traffickers? We are wrestling with this. At what point in the prosecution process are assets frozen or constrained, so that they have not disappeared at the end of a successful prosecution?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
We have just had a new Bill that deals with that, so that they can be seized or constrained up front, not just after the conviction. They are frozen up front, as soon as somebody is in view as a suspect. In the end, of course, the judge will have to decide whether or not the assets should be seized. If there is an acquittal, the assets go back to the trafficker, but they are safeguarded and are not to be taken away.
Lord Warner
Is that at the point of charge or even earlier?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
That is earlier, at the point that a perpetrator comes into view, but it does need a judge to okay it.
Lord Warner
So it is really in the hands of the police to move on that.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
The prosecution and the instructing judge.
Lord Warner
How is the money from asset recovery used? Is it ring-fenced, is it part of victim compensation, is it part of guardianship, or does it just disappear into the state’s coffers?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
Maybe you could say that it disappears into the state. On the other hand, when compensation is awarded to a victim, the state pays the whole amount up front. It will then try to get it back from the perpetrator. The state takes and gives back, I would say. Of course, there is a relationship between compensation and seizure. This is something we see judges and prosecutors struggle with, but I think I can now plainly say that, in essence, the claims of the victim precede the claims of the Government, so to speak.
Lord Warner
Does there have to be a successful prosecution for the victim to get compensated, or are they taken out of that requirement?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
When it is within the court hearings, yes, but we also have a foundation that awards compensation to victims notwithstanding the criminal case. Of course, there is also a civil way to get it, but that is not used very often.
Michael Connarty
We are told by NGOs and others that, basically, people get prosecuted in this country for all sorts of other things. They are traffickers but they cannot get them on trafficking, so they get done on all sorts of other, minor offences. What is the record in the Netherlands? With all the work you have done, you seem to have more cohesion. Are more genuine trafficking cases prosecuted, or do the NGOs tell you there are still lots of people getting prosecuted for minor breaches of other laws because they cannot get them on trafficking?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
This has been one of my great debates with the labour inspectorate. Specifically there, there was the idea of getting them on all sorts of other offences, which was easier, brought in more money and so on. In the end, I was able to convince them that that does nothing for victims. If it is a trafficking offence, the care for victims or their interest should be part of the decision on how to prosecute a case. That has now sunk in.
Chairman
You have given evidence to us beautifully. It is immensely helpful for our report. Can I ask for your help in three other ways, which you may want to give us notes on? You spoke about prosecuting without victims. Might we have some details of how you have gone about that and what the proportions are on that? Secondly, you talked about five Departments making up your budget. Could we have some details on that, if possible? Thirdly, under clauses 31(5) and 32(7) of the Bill, the Home Secretary will have the power to redact parts of the equivalent of your report if she feels that it is against national security and so on. Do the Government have that power over you as well?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
No. I do not think I would do my job if they had.
Chairman
Will you give us written answers to the other two on a postcard?
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
I will.
Chairman
On that last point, is it because she trusts you not to put things in a report that will mess up trials, could endanger an individual or could be covered by national security—because she would never think that you would do that? It comes back to this trust factor.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
I think trust comes into it—and you have to earn that trust. For instance, nowadays when the prosecution are on to a really big case and do not want anybody to hear about it, they will tell me. I will know, as they know the way I go about handling this information. The same goes for the police. If they have a huge raid somewhere, very often, one or two of my staff join them, just to see how they are doing it. That gives me a really good insight into this work and its effectiveness. Trust has a big part in it. I also think that our Government—and, I tend to think, many Governments—have the political will to fight human trafficking. If not, they should, because it undermines society on all different levels. It is partly about trust, so maybe you should seek out a person who would earn that kind of trust, but I do not think it has ever really been a problem. Apart from operational things that the police and the prosecution tell me, I cannot really think in what way the Government themselves would be able to give me any information that would be dangerous to the public or whatever, so I do not see that dilemma. The Departments that pay for my office are Justice, the Home Office, Foreign Affairs, Social Affairs and Health. On your first question, I wrote down—
Chairman
You were saying that it was very important to develop prosecutions without having to use victims.
Corinne Dettmeijer-Vermeulen
This has something to do with the way our prosecution works. In big areas where they find they need to do something constructive, they have a sort of programmatic approach. While they follow up on victims who come to them, they do not just wait for those victims to come. They look into a certain area: Chinese massage salons, for example, where a lot of illegal prostitution is going on. There has been a project really to look into what is happening there, without going to the victims and waiting for the victims to come to them. This is a different approach. I have been to Sweden, for instance, where their approach is very much to wait for the victim to come and file a complaint. If you do that, you do not get many successful prosecutions. You have to go out there and look for it. Human trafficking is not a crime that comes to you. We say, “They don’t bring it—you have to go and get it.” To go and get it requires a frame of mind that wants to go and get it. That has led to the successful prosecutions in the Netherlands. Compared with many other countries, we have a very high rate of prosecutions—and with that, a higher rate of convictions, too.
Chairman
Thank you very much. That was brilliant evidence. Oral evidence: [Draft Modern Slavery Bill] 30