Oral evidence: The Impact of the bedroom Tax in Scotland, HC 937-viMonday 10 March 2014

Oral evidence, 10 March 2014.

Witnesses

Gail Morrow, Secretary, Scottish Anti-bedroom tax Federation, Jean Devlin, Scottish Anti-bedroom tax Federation, June Paterson, Dundee Bin the bedroom tax, and Jack Ferguson, on behalf of NO 2 bedroom tax Campaign, gave evidence

Chair

Can I welcome you to this meeting of the Scottish Affairs Committee? As you are aware, we are investigating the bedroom tax and the impact on Scotland. We have been visiting a number of locations through Scotland to make sure that we get views locally from people, but we were specifically invited here to Dundee and to this community by Lesley Brennan and Jim McGovern, so we have come to hear the views of local people here. It would be helpful if we started off by members of the panel introducing themselves, telling us who they are and then we will maybe ask you what you think of the reports that we have produced so far, so if I can just maybe start from this end.

June Paterson

My name is June Paterson. I am a member of the Bin the bedroom tax Dundee.

Gail Morrow

I am Gail Morrow, Secretary of the Scottish Anti-bedroom tax Federation.

Jean Devlin

I am Jean Devlin, Chair of Castlemilk Anti-bedroom tax Federation, who are affiliated to the Scottish Anti-bedroom tax Federation, who I am speaking for today.

Jack Ferguson

I am Jack Ferguson. I am here on behalf of Al Wyllie from NO 2 bedroom tax, who could not make it today, but I am also the Unite Community Co-ordinator for Scotland for Unite, the union.

Chair

Fine. As I said, I wonder if I could start off just by asking you to tell us what you think of the interim report we produced and the subsequent press releases, whether or not you see any difficulty about those things. If I can remind you, we said we were in favour of abolishing the bedroom tax, but if it was not abolished then we were putting forward a number of changes that would ameliorate the impact. Then following a visit to the councils in West Lothian and Falkirk, we put out another statement welcoming that there was more money being made available by the Scottish Government, recognising that they had the powers to ameliorate the effect of the bedroom tax in its entirety and saying that they should do so, and also saying that they should write off all arrears and refund all the money that people had paid already. Now, is that the sort of thing you are generally in support of or are there major issues that you think we have missed?

Gail Morrow

As the Scottish Anti-bedroom tax Federation, we are in agreement with everything you said, particularly your interim report about discretionary housing payments and how it does not work. It really is problematic. We are obviously dealing with people every day who—

Chair

Why does it not work?

Gail Morrow

Because you are dealing with people that have mental health issues, you are dealing with vulnerable people, people who just will not engage, do not want to engage. They are threatened by the council coming to them or the housing associations coming to them. It makes them nervous. People have applied already and they are told no and they have sat, humiliated, going through the DHP forms: “Do you have Sky TV? Do you spend this and this? Do you spend this and this?” So to them applying, they cannot do it. It really puts them off. They have been humiliated by it, so it just does not work with DHP. As far as we are concerned, it is just not a viable option at all.

Chair

Is that unanimous? Jack, you are representing the other main grouping.

Jack Ferguson

Yes. We are in support of the recommendations you have made as well, particularly with DHP. Putting means testing in people’s way for accessing the money they need is always a barrier, and as we have already discussed and heard, so many barriers are potentially in people’s way for going through such a complex process, and even then, even with the extra money, we are aware of people who have applied again since the extra money and still been refused. So really what we need to acknowledge is these people have already been assessed, that they require a housing benefit in order to pay their rent and we need to find a way that removes the barriers for them in accessing that money.

Graeme Morrice

I wonder if I could initially address my remarks to June. Obviously you represent the Dundee Bin the bedroom tax campaign. I wonder if you could explain what the impacts of the bedroom tax is having on local people here in Dundee?

June Paterson

I think it is having a serious effect. It is very difficult to assess what it is, because for some reason Dundee people are just not coming forward to the campaign. We have tried everything, but it is like they are just going to stay and just live in fear, basically. They are not wanting to put their head above the parapet and get shot down is the feeling I get. The only reason I did, I was angry. At first it was fear. I did not find out about this until three weeks before it happened and I only found it through Facebook. At first I was angry. At first it was fear that came in, “I am going to lose my house” and then I got angry and I thought, “I am not doing this. They will have to take me out of here in a box” but I am thinking, “Hang on, am I in a minority here?” I think other people in Dundee, they tend to put their head down and keep it down and hope it goes away, but there is people out there suffering. I know somebody that has had to move. The housing associations say that they are paying people to move. I am sorry, they did not pay that person to move, they bullied him out of his house, and now he has a bill of nearly £900 for them fixing the house he left, because they pushed him out before he could do it himself. People have moved, been moved into new properties to find out that they were exempt under the 96 rule. What is going to happen to them? Do they get their house back? Do they get compensated? Do they have to go through the courts and sue the DWP? You will have to excuse me, there was a lot of things I heard as I went on. I am new at this and I am not a political person, I am just a wee housewife with children and it is as simple as that. There was nothing political around that until I got this. I find it very difficult to talk in public, because this is the first time I have done it.

Graeme Morrice

I think you are doing very well, June, so don’t worry.

June Paterson

Most of what I found, it was on Facebook, and the fear that I feel coming through that, I am sure that is happening in Dundee as well; it is just that people are not coming forward.

Graeme Morrice

Yes. So you say there is a lot of people who are affected by it or even indirectly affected by it, maybe it is family members, maybe it is relatives, friends, work colleagues, but they are not necessarily getting involved. But for those who are not being impacted upon with the bedroom tax, okay, you say they are putting their head down, but what are they doing in terms of making choices? Are you finding that people are paying it or not paying it? If they are paying it, are they struggling, are they giving up other things?

June Paterson

They have to be struggling, because you were struggling before it came in. You have got to be struggling. I have two extra bedrooms, I am £100 a month. That is more than a week’s income to me.

Graeme Morrice

That is a lot.

June Paterson

Where I am, it is all two and three-bedroomed houses, so everybody that is affected in that area is going to be affected the same. So your loss of a week’s income obviously if you are paying it you are dealing with it somehow, and if you are not paying it, you are living in fear.

Graeme Morrice

Yes. You mentioned earlier the 96 rule. Were you impacted upon that?

June Paterson

I was exempt under the 96 rule and I did not find that out until January, and I only found again through Facebook. The only thing I am learning is through Facebook. Nobody has come up to me and said, “You are entitled to this and you are entitled to that”.

Graeme Morrice

Okay, so you found that information out through Facebook. I take it you are a council tenant in Dundee?

June Paterson

Yes.

Graeme Morrice

Did you then approach the council about that?

June Paterson

Yes, I did, straight away and put an order.

Graeme Morrice

What did the council say?

June Paterson

They had not heard of it. Nobody in Dundee had heard of it.

Graeme Morrice

Because that a recent announcement, so—

June Paterson

The first person I informed was Lesley and she had never heard of it. The council had never heard of it. I was told, “We will have to check up on that”. I said, “Well, it definitely exists because I have spent months looking for stuff”.

Graeme Morrice

So you have applied for an exemption—

June Paterson

I got a letter telling me I was exempt the last year, but then it kicks in, because the Government being the Government, they change the goalposts. They have come up against them, they can just move them. It kicks back in again this year, but then the DHP was awarded last year and will cover this year, but the point I have, that is it covered for a year. They will reassess me in September to see what my outgoings are, which I object at.

Graeme Morrice

Okay, that is very useful. Thanks for that. Maybe I could ask the other members of the panel, who are obviously involved with Scotland-wide organisations campaigning against the bedroom tax, and we know there is a federation that is across the whole of the United Kingdom. Are there any differences, do you think, in terms of the bedroom tax in Scotland compared with the rest of the UK? Maybe, Jack, you can start, if you like.

Jack Ferguson

I think, as has already been mentioned, there is a disproportionate amount of people reliant on social housing in Scotland. There is also the absolute absence of any kind of reasonable supply of one-bedroom properties that people can move into, so it is definitely, I think, going to have a particularly disproportionate impact on people who are living on very low incomes in Scotland. As we have already heard, people who are doing without food, reducing other aspects of their outgoings, really cutting themselves down to the bare bone to try to survive. There is a strong interaction between people suffering from the bedroom tax and fuel poverty, and people not heating their homes properly and living in conditions that are threatening to health. That is basically ultimately what it comes down to I think. You are talking about such a high proportion of people’s income: the savings that people are going to have to make and that people have made because they are determined to try to do the right thing and not be in debt and not get themselves into rent arrears and to pay it off. I have seen it threaten people’s health, I would say. They impact on people seriously negatively that way.

Chair

Jean, it is good to see you again. We met last time in Castlemilk in sunny Glasgow. Do you see any differences in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK on this issue?

Jean Devlin

What I have noticed is there seems to be quite an active campaign group in Liverpool, for example, who seem to be working along the lines of the redesignation. Also, what they seem to be looking at is bedroom size and what actually designates a bedroom. They seem to be winning some successful appeals at tribunals down there. I have not seen any indication there is the same level of activity happening in Scotland. I think Fife where a bedroom was deemed too small or the shape of the room was actually not deemed to be adequate to be used as a bedroom. We should be looking at some of the campaigning that has happened south of the border and see how successful these tribunals have been. It seems that cases have been won. There were simply things like somebody who had never used another room in the house as a bedroom but had always used it as a dining room, so it was therefore deemed to be a dining room. We should be pushing to have more of these kinds of test cases in Scotland.

Chair

Can I just pick up that, because one of the objections to that, about redesignation, is that the council were arguing there that they would have to then take account of that redesignation for every house in that category, and that that would be quite expensive and a substantial loss of income to them. Therefore, in those circumstances, they did not think that that was the route to go down. How do you respond to that?

Jean Devlin

I do not really know exactly how to respond to that except to say that, if it is possible that that is a route out for people, then we should start the process now and refer these judgments back to April from last year if there are cases in Scotland to be found. These exemptions might fit that bill. I do not think that it should particularly start from the process or looking into the process at all. It might be expensive. I do not know where the funding would come for that. I am not really here to talk about where funding should come for certain initiatives that might take place. If there is any way that we can find any type of route around the spare room subsidy, then we should take all routes possible.

Graeme Morrice

Okay, thanks. Gail, do you see any difference between the situation in Scotland and the rest of the UK, or indeed any differences within Scotland itself?

Gail Morrow

I think Jean covered it all. When it comes to Scotland, I am confused as to why quite a few councils have not applied for further funding from the DWP. I do not understand the finances of it all, but I know that there is extra funding available from Westminster and I do not understand why councils up here have not applied to get that funding. I do not know how it is in England, if it is the same across the border with councils down there getting their top-up funding. I am not sure about that.

Graeme Morrice

Just to clarify, are you saying there are a number of councils in Scotland that have not applied for this funding? That is your understanding.

Gail Morrow

For the reserve fund awards, 22 councils have not applied for the DWP reserve fund awards.

Chair

The supplementary funding possibly available.

Gail Morrow

I know North Lanarkshire did.

Pamela Nash

I just want to say that one of the first points that you raised in this session is about the fact that people are not engaging for whatever reason in their personal circumstances. My understanding was that if councils have not applied it is because they have not maxed out the money that they have.

Gail Morrow

When it comes to that, why are the councils not making more of an effort to identify the people that need the funding? It is too much to put on an individual to come forward and do that. We know it has been a year and we know they are refusing to do it. I just cannot understand. I do not understand why there has not been a more proactive thing from each council to make sure that DWP are covering what they can.

Graeme Morrice

I think Scottish Government has a role in that regard, maximising the incoming from Westminster to Scotland.

Gail Morrow

Definitely, I would agree. I think possibly the way that the funds have already been allocated. As I say, I am not an expert at all, but the way I am looking I do not think the allocation has been done properly either. Just when you look at the total funding compared to the amount they have actually paid out, it makes no sense to me, the amount of money that is sitting here, still sitting to be allocated up and down the councils. People are not heating their houses. They are not eating food. Money is just sitting there waiting and it has not been allocated.

Chair

Our understanding is that any figures you have are to some extent historic and the decisions that were made were made at the time before some of the additional funding came. We had this in West Lothian. We had it in Glasgow. We had it in Falkirk. Some of the local authorities were saying, “We are only allocating a certain amount just now because we do not know if we are going to run out of money”. Then as additional money became available, they then relaxed the criteria or extended the period of which people are getting the DHP payments. I do not know what exact figures you have, but some of the non-claims, as it were, are likely to have been overcome.

Gail Morrow

This is from 6 February this year. The only people that are waiting to be decided for the reserve fund are Aberdeen City, Clackmannanshire, Highland and Glasgow. So there are still several councils.

Chair

Right, we are slightly crossed about that. I misunderstood you.

Graeme Morrice

Right, thanks for that. Presumably, you would all like to see the repeal of the bedroom tax. Hansard can record that you nodded vigorously all four of you there. What do you think would be the best way to repeal the bedroom tax and how quickly do you think this could come about?

Gail Morrow

Do you want us to say—

Chair

I am saying that would be nice, but I do not know that was necessarily what we were fishing for. I think we wanted just to clarify whether or not there was any particular solutions that you had identified that you think we should be considering, because we have made the recommendation about abolition. That has gone to the Government and the Government has now come back and rejected that. Presumably, the best option would be for the existing Government to abolish it tomorrow. I just wondered whether or not there was anything else in the context of abolition that you wanted to raise with us.

Jean Devlin

Personally I think that is a difficult question sitting in Parliament at any time in Westminster. How would you go about it at parliamentary level? You guys, it is your job to do that. How best can you represent us to go back and do that is the only answer that I could really give to you. Take the force of the people behind you because that is certainly what you would have, however it is, the mechanisms, that you have to go through in Parliament to change that piece of legislation.

Graeme Morrice

That is a fair point. I suppose it is the right answer to the question that was asked. Clearly, we are not asking about what the legislative process is to go through that. We are aware of that. We are parliamentarians. We are just trying to glean your understanding of how it works and, as the Chair was saying, whether there are other things that perhaps you are aware of that we could look at doing.

Gail Morrow

As opposed to abolition?

Chair

We did not write the questions ourselves. A bit like the council and the councillors there, officials run some of these things sometimes and tell us what to say.

Jack Ferguson

The point is, by whatever means, we need to have a Government that has the means and the will in order to abolish the bedroom tax. As things stand, we are not in that position and so we are left trying to ameliorate the worst effects of what is an unjust policy. We are here trying to pick up the pieces of the wreckage that has been left by the failures of the current Government.

Chair

Fine. That is probably the answer we were looking for.

Jim McGovern

In Westminster, as I am sure you are well aware, it is pretty much a numbers game. If the Coalition Government has the numbers, it does not matter how many times we put up bills or legislation or amendments or tenement agreement bills to say, “Scrap it, abolish it”. Everybody in opposition will vote to abolish it, but if the Lib Dems and the Tories have the numbers, we will be defeated. Preferably, maybe a short answer is maybe a change of Government or maybe it is going to get lost.

Jean Devlin

A change of Government unless you could convince some Liberal Democrats to change their side.

Jack Ferguson

I think we have tried. That is clearly not working, convincing Liberal Democrats to vote in line with their party’s policy.

Jean Devlin

Well, yes.

Jim McGovern

Ouch! There is a certain element of damage limitation.

Jean Devlin

Yes.

Jim McGovern

The whole panel agreed with the Chair at the start, if the Minister abolished the tax. That would be a great victory. That would be the ideal, but in terms of damage, it has already been done. If people are not going to be evicted, if people’s arrears are going to be paid, if people are struggling, they have starved or begged or stolen or borrowed to actually pay the fine and get their money reimbursed, that would also be a good result, but what about the people who have actually had to move house? They are not going to get the house back, that is for sure.

Jack Ferguson

Absolutely, I can second as well. People I have met have moved house really against their will. They have been financially compelled to do it, moved to areas where they do not want to live. In one case, somebody who is in a new home now that requires repairs, so she is also having to struggle about getting the repairs done to the new houses. They then find that they were subject to the 1996 exemption and there was no point in them ever moving in the first place. That is manifestly unjust. What are we going to do for people like that?

Jim McGovern

It is a fantastic question. I certainly do not have the answer to it. If somebody said to me the worst, “We had to up sticks and move to an area we do not want to be in”, how do you resolve that? I do not know. Anyway, the Scottish Government recently announced that it would allow funding to seek to mitigate to fix the bedroom tax. Could you comment on this? You probably heard the earlier discussion regarding: should they have done it earlier? I do not know if you have a view on that, anybody.

Gail Morrow

I have a concern about how they are going to get the funding to the people that need it. I do not think to put people through the process of DHP or whatever the fund is set up where the individual has to fight for the money again. I do not think that is a good idea but I do not know if there is a way that it could go straight to social landlords. We have all agreed that if you could miss the people out, somehow get it to the social landlords, so that you are not putting people through the process of applying again, because you are going to be in the same position. The same people who did not apply this time are not going to apply for 2014-15. If there was a way that that funding could go direct to the landlords, rather than the people, then we would definitely find that a lot more acceptable.

Chair

Yes, I think we heard in the previous session that there is a general agreement across everybody that DHPs were not the best way of doing it for all the reasons we identified and that you have picked up. That is certainly something we will reflect on. Again, nodding does not get picked up, so I will just say they all nodded in agreement.

Jim McGovern

Usually, he only says when people disagree with him.

Chair

No, I never see people disagreeing. I only see people agreeing with us.

Jean Devlin

Just to add to that, what we learned in the previous session and other sessions that you have had throughout the country is the fact that it is discretionary is not very helpful for the person who is applying at all. One of our main concerns is what the criteria are for awarding discretionary housing payment. We are not very clear but we are picking up that it is different from different council to different council. They have learned, in fact, I think we learned today from Dundee itself that things like the DLA are being taken into consideration. We would argue that benefits like that should bear no consideration at all. Chair himself had covered that argument, did he not, at City Council? We very strongly feel that benefits like that are put in place for people with disability, to be used for the disability. They are not meant to be used as rent. That is something that we are still having to look at for this year, but also for next year for the 2014-15 budget. If they are talking about DHP still being to be used, make sure there is a set of criteria that does not include benefits that are there specifically to cater for people’s disabilities.

Jack Ferguson

Absolutely, I agree with that. I think it is terrible if people are having DLA counted as income towards assessing their discretionary housing payments, because that is money that is awarded for a specific purpose for things that they need in their lives, people who are receiving DLA. I would welcome the fact that the Scottish Government has made more money available, said that they have this commitment to fully ameliorate in the cost of the bedroom tax. The problem is I think it is generally accepted by all sides in discussion that this is a failed policy. It is unjust. If we accept that then people should not be having to ask for money at the discretion of councils. We can identify who all the people are affected by this policy. They are all assessed as having an income at a level where they require help with paying their rent, so there really is no confusion or difficulty there for me. We know who the people are who we would help. Let us find the ways to get the help directly to them. As there are different issues that were raised about people who have already been paying, people with different arrears, there is a year’s worth of unjust policy took place and all kinds of levels of injustice have happened to people throughout that. If we are saying we are going to fully ameliorate that policy, it needs to be fully ameliorated for everyone affected by that policy, because the policy is wrong.

Chair

You wanted to add something there.

Gail Morrow

It was on the 2014-15, just on what Jack was saying, really quite simplistic. A sound proposition would be to contact the person. “Do you get housing benefit? Yes, then obviously you are poor.” If they are getting housing benefit, that is enough to say you are entitled to your bedroom tax payment.

Chair

They could do this as a debt if they wanted. It is a question of will really, is it not? If they wanted to do it, presumably the housing owner or landlord could identify whether they were eligible and they would just get a chunk of money to write it all off. It is a question of will in anybody rather than anything else. Similarly, the question of arrears and similarly the question of repaying people who have paid already; if the political will is there, it could be done pretty straightforwardly I would have thought.

Gail Morrow

On the refunds, we have found people already who have been awarded DHP backdated. Certain housing organisations have taken the DHP and credited it to their rent account, but kept it in case they fall into arrears. I heard Steve say at the end that is what would happen with refunds to help the housing association, but I spoke to him outside and he said that, yes, they would give it back into rent accounts but refund the people. We know that there are definitely people who have now had refunds given, but they are being held by the housing associations. When it comes to refunds, if you could make it clear that the refunds have to go to the people who have borrowed from their families, are going to Wonga, are starving themselves or not heating themselves.

Chair

There is surely though an issue, given that we have already agreed that a substantial number of people who have difficulties with DHP have mental health issues or learning difficulties or chaotic lives. There is perhaps an issue there about these people being given a substantial chunk of money in a one-off.

Gail Morrow

That is not for them to say. It is their money. It is their money. They have already paid.

Chair

Well, we do have a duty of care.

Jean Devlin

Can I just clear up. I think a bit of confusion just developed there. I think what Gail is saying is that people who have already been struggling to pay their rent because of the bedroom tax and they have paid some money into that have maybe applied for discretionary housing payment, got an award and had that award back-dated, that therefore goes back to the landlord. In effect, the landlord has been paid twice. The tenant themselves has tried to pay as much as they possibly could, so that is under that tenant’s rent account. The DHP backdated payment comes in. That is also now sitting in the rent account. What they are saying is that once that DHP award has been made, the tenant, their own money, should go back to that tenant. That does not seem to be happening in all cases. What seems to be happening is that the housing associations—I do not know for all councils, but we have heard that some—are keeping hold of both payments, saying to the tenant, “We will just keep a hold of what you have already paid us in your rent account just in case you get into arrears again at some time in the future”.

Chair

I would have thought that would be open to legal challenge.

Jean Devlin

You are absolutely right. I believe that it is.

Chair

It seems extremely bad practice to me.

Jean Devlin

This is what they are picking up. This is what has happened.

Chair

As indicated, I have some reservations about some individuals being given a big chunk of money as a windfall, but we have not quite got to the stage yet of discussing how the money is going to be handed back. That is a battle that is yet to be won and can maybe be discussed slightly further down the road.

Jean Devlin

It is the person’s own money. It is not a windfall. It is their money that they have paid.

Chair

I understand that. I understand that.

Jim McGovern

I understand what you are saying. It is a whole different debate, but I cannot see any legal counsel saying, “Here is your money but we cannot trust you to use it properly”.

Jean Devlin

I completely agree. It is not a windfall to them. It is their money. They are entitled to that money back.

Jim McGovern

As regards the Scottish Government, we are in agreement here that we would like to see the bedroom tax abolished, which would be a UK Government measure. Do you think there are any other ways or are you aware of any other ways that the Scottish Government could help even more of them meet the effective policy other than just asking DWP to lift the spending cap on DHPs? I appreciate the example that Jean said, which is you have not always be involved in politics. It is this issue that has prompted you to get involved. Incidentally, I thought you spoke very well and staged your piece very well. We are really looking for answers to get right out of the nitty-gritty for legislation and parliamentary procedures, but are you aware of anything that the Scottish Government could do that would help even more?

Jean Devlin

Do you mean for this current year or do you mean in future years even?

Jim McGovern

Not necessarily. The problem is with the future, the political will.

Jean Devlin

We would love the assurance that after 2014-15 when they have come in and mitigated the effects, that they will continue to do that year after year until Westminster abolishes the legislation, quite simply. That, we would ask that the funding would be there year on year until the whole legislation is repealed at Westminster.

Jim McGovern

So that is what you feel the Scottish Government could possibly do.

Jean Devlin

Well, Westminster Government is ultimately responsible for the legislation, but if they were going to repeal it and they are not going to put any extra funding in to recover and mitigate the effects of it, there is still going to be a shortfall. In Scotland, we do have our own Parliament, then we can look for them to do it, if Westminster is refusing to do it, which they have already. They are the people that are cutting the benefit. I do not think there is much chance. Going back to what you were saying, you have cut the benefit, but do you feel they need to mitigate the impacts of cutting the benefit? That would defeat itself.

Jim McGovern

Maybe I should have outlined the three questions I was going to ask. What could the UK Government do, which in our view is either change the Government or get the current Government to abolish it? What could the Scottish Government do? Then the third question would be what could local authorities do?

Gail Morrow

Unfortunately, I come from Renfrewshire. I am a tenant there.

Jim McGovern

That is unfortunate.

Gail Morrow

We have had a really good campaign in Renfrewshire and it is really well aware. Mark Macmillan has brought in the £600,000. He set up a separate fund just for council tenants. I know that they have used 94% DHP. If every authority could work that way and do the same thing that he is doing on a local authority level then, basically, you are covering everyone that way if that is what you mean by local authorities.

Jim McGovern

Yes, those are the three parts: UK Government, Scottish Government, local authorities. I know Renfrewshire can be held up as a good example.

Gail Morrow

They are.

Jack Ferguson

From the Scottish Government’s point of view, we have already discussed the difficulties there are in distributing the money via the mechanism DHP. There is also obviously this issue of it requiring cooperation from the UK Government, which seems pretty unlikely given their policy. What we have been hearing about is from area to area, different landlords, effectively it being a postcode lottery about how easy it has been for them to access support and access further money and get through that process. Really, if we were going to look for something further from the Scottish Government, it would be setting national standard for ameliorating the bedroom tax for everybody affected by it and making it clear the mechanisms of how it is going to be distributed, so all the landlords understood what was happening and there was not any of this huge amount of confusion that we have been hearing about for tenants. Like Jim has been saying, the only source of information people have is each other: social networks, people keeping each other informed. That should be coming from a national level. Here is what the policy is with regards to the bedroom tax.

Chair

I am conscious that we have the Minister coming in. We only have two notes in saying when the Minister wants to come in and when is the Minister getting involved? I want to rattle through some of the other points if you do not mind. We are happy to be in Dundee until midnight but possibly not everybody takes the same view. Jim, does that cover your points?

Jim McGovern

Yes.

Pamela Nash

I just want to cover evictions again. Today and previous evidence sessions, the landlord councils we have spoken to have taken the view that they would not evict a tenant if they were taking all reasonable measures to engage. Gail, you are shaking your head, so I will come to you first. In your campaign, do you see a difference between those who cannot pay and will not pay?

Gail Morrow

As a campaign, we push for people to pay, just engage with us as much as you can, even if it is only £2 or £3, just whatever you can afford to pay. A lot of people who are not paying maybe are not necessarily taking the stance of, “I refuse to pay this”. It is just because they cannot pay and these are the people who are not engaging either. These are the people who are likely to be affected, but I go back to these being the vulnerable people, people with mental health issues. We cannot engage with them either.

Pamela Nash

Have you seen examples of people like that who are vulnerable, who are not engaging. Has anybody been evicted or threatened with eviction?

Jean Devlin

Could I maybe give an example there? There was a case recently in my local area where a woman was almost evicted. She was saved from eviction by the Lord Provost of Glasgow, who happens to be a local councillor in Castlemilk telephoning the chief executive of the Glasgow Housing Association and preventing the eviction actually going through. That is a person that had both historic arrears and bedroom tax arrears and we have always said, since the introduction of the bedroom tax, historic arrears were kept at bay. It may be a working person keeping up their rent, fell into a bit of arrears, lost their job, all because they have mental health. Then bedroom Tax meant she is on benefits, cannot afford to pay historic arrears. bedroom tax arrears are creeping up, which took her to the magic £1,000 level that seems to be where housing associations start to push for their eviction. That woman has serious mental health problems, had attempted to take her own life one week before the eviction was due to take place, and it was only stopped by the intervention of the Lord Provost of Glasgow City Council. These people who have the most are certainly not safe.

Pamela Nash

Have you had people approaching your campaign or yourselves worried about being evicted or worried about the risk of homelessness?

Jean Devlin

Absolutely.

Jack Ferguson

Absolutely, yes.

Pamela Nash

Could you give us an idea of the scale of that?

Jean Devlin

I think the example that I have given there is very real and it only happened a fortnight ago. Housing associations seem to be trying not to take it that far, but that case just arose a fortnight ago. We are meeting people on the streets. We are seeing people with tears.

Pamela Nash

Can I just ask June, because we are here to hear about Dundee in this situation? Are people worried about homelessness and about being evicted?

June Paterson

I would imagine so, yes. Nothing worse than being evicted, is there, with no place to go? As I say, the economics of it, it is how it affects me. I am not saying that I am definitely a part. That does not mean that I do not have stress, or I am not lying awake at night wondering what is going on, because it is not just the bedroom tax. It is other benefits as well that are being cut.

Pamela Nash

Yes, understood.

June Paterson

So you have less and less money coming in and more and more going out. People are going to be affected and people with mental health issues are going to be worse. My daughter has mental health issues and she is not affected yes because her son is 16, but if he was to move out, I know for a fact that she would not be living on an allowance. She would be putting hers straight in the bank. She is not capable of answering a phone, so she would not be able to connect with anybody unless she had a worker or helper along with her. Left to her own devices, she would just rot in hell.

Pamela Nash

Okay, and as you said there, you suspect there are a lot of people in that boat.

June Paterson

There are people like that, yes.

Pamela Nash

Okay, ,thank you.

Chair

One of the final points we want to just touch on is the question of reasonable offers. Now, as you might have heard from the previous session, one of the proposals that we had was that if the Government would abolish the bedroom tax, people should only be hit by the tax if they made are a reasonable offer and declined it. What do you think of that? That is designed to overcome the difficulty of, even if someone was willing to move, if there are no houses there, they cannot move. It is therefore unfair, even if you agree with the tax. It is unfair that they are hit with it and cannot actually take any steps to overcome the difficulties. What about the reasonable offer question? How do you respond to that?

Gail Morrow

I saw that you were saying as well, you mentioned what a reasonable offer would be, but I think a lot of people are concerned they are going to be moved out of their communities. I think a reasonable offer would be to keep people in their communities, keep them close by the people that live there. People have lived in these communities for 20 years, longer, brought their families and stuff, so it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to move out of their communities. I would definitely say reasonable would have to include ability to stay in the community.

Jean Devlin

For me, it would be the council or housing association might deem that they have made a reasonable offer but the tenant themselves might not think that it is a reasonable offer to them. It needs to be a two-sided reasonable offer.

Chair

People can be unreasonable. I remember any time there was demolitions taking place in Glasgow nobody was willing to move unless they got an upstairs in Mosspark and it was just the best. There is a question of what is reasonable and what is feasible, is there not?

Jean Devlin

There is the difference, but the tenant themselves also must feel like the offer is reasonable to them, surely.

Chair

Right, but there would have to be some process by which there was an agreement about reasonableness. In principle, when there are caveats, do you think that is a general policy about not applying it unless there was a reasonable offer made if the tax was repaid is something that is worth pursuing?

Jean Devlin

I am loathe to say because we really need to define what a reasonable offer is before agreeing anything like that and it needs to be for the tenant as well.

Jack Ferguson

The point that was made earlier about what is required is full abolition, I know that is flogging a dead horse in terms of the current Government, but that is the only solution to the crisis that has been created by the policy. If we are looking at the doomsday scenario that this policy is going to continue on for parliaments and parliaments and years and years to come, then certainly it would be fairer than saying to people, “We are going to charge you when there is no opportunity for you to move”. Really, it is not reasonable to force people out of their homes, which is what we are talking about here. It is a policy resigned at a governmental level aimed to force people out of their homes, which is manifestly nor reasonable. Definitely as an absolute minimum, we have to say people have the right to stay within their own communities, as has been said, and to remain linked to the social support network that is going to get them through all the other difficulties in life and all the other financial problems and personal problems that we have already been discussing. We know the lack of one-bedroomed properties that are available means that the people who have already moved, we have seen people move big long distances, well away from any kind of social support. My concern about it you kind of raise in the previous session: will we need to build more and more one-bedroomed houses? This is not actually appropriate accommodation. Historically, we have built bigger accommodation. We have recognised what the housing needs are and have built to that. This is not a recognition of housing needs. This is a perverse penalising of the poor done for political capital, frankly. That is what the policy is and it is not reasonable, so if we are going to say an unreasonable policy is going to continue on into the future, then sure we will try to look at what possible means there are to make that slightly better, but it is not going to change the fact it is an injustice and it is penalisation of the people who are poorest and most vulnerable in society.

Chair

Are there any other points that you want to raise? I am conscious that the Minister has sent us in a couple of threatening notes so we want to make sure that we see him fairly quickly. Are there any points that you think we have not covered at all that you think should be drawn to our attention, any answers you had prepared for questions we have not asked you?

Jean Devlin

For me, having been at a previous session, I think you have endeavoured to cover all aspects. One of the things I would like to add is that I think we need to get away from the idea—and what seems to be coming from Government and getting pushed through the media—that these people that are affected by this bedroom tax are all the unemployed and these scroungers and all like that. We need to bear in mind that the majority of people that are claiming housing benefit that require this kind of help are working people that are absolutely struggling. One of the worries to add to that is that a proposal of bringing in sanctions for working people who are not working enough hours a week. It is actually quite worrying that that is going to push people right over the edge when it comes to the impacts of the bedroom tax and other aspects of welfare reform, just to add to that.

Chair

I should maybe clarify that it is not the Minister that has been threatening us. It is one of his staff that has been giving me an insight. Is that all of the points you wanted to make? Yes. We are obviously going to continue this. We will be producing a report within the next two or three weeks and making a further set of recommendations along the lines of all the evidence that we have had. Thank you all very much for coming along. Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses

Margaret Burgess MSP, Minister for Housing and Welfare, Scottish Government, and Jamie MacDougall, Head of Housing Support and Homelessness Unit, Scottish Government, gave evidence.

Chair

I wonder if we could make a start and if I could welcome you to this meeting of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee. Could I start by apologising for the delay in starting the session. As you will appreciate, we have had three evidence sessions before this and inevitably things came to run a little over. As I was saying, we want to be away by midnight. If that is okay with you, we will speed on. We are all abolitionists here, in fact, so I do not think it is necessary for us to spend time telling each other how strongly we are against the bedroom tax. I wonder if we could start off then by asking you to introduce yourselves and then I will ask you just if you want to make comments on the reports that have been produced today.

Margaret Burgess

I am Margaret Burgess, the Scottish Government Minister for Housing and Welfare.

Jamie MacDougall

Jamie MacDougall, I am an official at the Scottish Government. I head up the Housing Support and Homelessness Unit.

Chair

Fine, thanks. We have produced an interim report, for which as you will probably be aware the main initiative was for the abolition of bedroom tax. However, if the bedroom tax was not abolished, we put forward a number of measures that we thought were reasonable and would ameliorate some of the worst effects. We have also subsequently added a statement indicating that the Scottish Government has agreed, as I understand it, to meet all the costs of the bedroom tax going forward. What should be done about arrears and people who have already paid? Do you have any comments that you want to make on both or either of those?

Margaret Burgess

I think in the first instance, yes, we are pleased that the report did recognise what the Scottish Government was trying to do in terms of mitigating the bedroom tax. We are also pleased to note the report was of the view that there was no logical reason or justification for limiting discretionary housing payments and recommends to the UK Government that this is abolished. Removing the cap would enable the Scottish Government to take the most effective action and target the funding to where it is most needed. We are still very much of that view and would appreciate any support we could get from the Committee to make that point to the UK Government. I am willing to expand on why we believe that is the best way forward as we go through this session. We do share the same concerns of the Committee and we have committed £35 million in the next year in mitigation funding. That is for 2014-15. We have already given local authorities £20 million, made available £20 million for 2013-14 for mitigation in terms of topping up the discretionary housing payments to the maximum limit that we are allowed to do.

Chair

Jamie, do you want to add anything to that?

Jamie MacDougall

No, I do not.

Chair

Can I just pick up a couple of points you made there; first of all about the removal of the cap. I think there were two points. The first is it is our understanding that the people who introduced this legislation are unlikely to come forward and agree for the lifting of the cap. All the informal responses that we have had indicate that is the case. Do you have a Plan B about what you will do in the event that they decline to do so?

Margaret Burgess

We have already said at Mr Swinney’s budget announcement that we would make available the funding, the £35 million, which would top up the DHP money that comes from the DWP. That would be £50 million in total to help mitigate the effects of the bedroom tax. The £50 million is a figure that of course we say would be required to mitigate completely. What we say preferably, which is very much preferably, that is agreed by all of the Scottish Parliament except the Conservatives is that that is the best way to help people impacted by the bedroom tax. What we did say is, if the cap is not lifted, that money is still available to look at a legal way to give that to local authorities and to registered social landlords to help those affected. We have said that that money is available. We have looked at that and we are working up. We are looking at all the opti9ons that are around, where a lot of them are fraught with difficulties in doing it that we can legally do as a Scottish Government. We are trying very hard to build a scheme which we are working with other parties and policies to do that.

Chair

Would I be right in saying you are looking for a plan B but you do not have one at the moment.

Margaret Burgess

We are absolutely clear that that money will be available for local authorities and registered social landlords to affect those impacted by the bedroom tax.

Chair

The second point that I had before I let my colleague in was that you have made mention a couple of times now of saying that you think the best way forward is DHPs. All the evidence that we have had is that there are substantial difficulties with DHPs. I think we have mentioned there are people who do not apply because of mental health issues. There are learning difficulty issues. There are people with chaotic lives. There are people who because of pride will not apply. We heard in the evidence from Dundee that approximately 40% of the people affected by the bedroom tax are not applying for DHPs despite the best efforts of the housing associations and the councils. Now, are you still convinced that DHPs are the best way of doing it?

Margaret Burgess

I am and I will say why. I think DHPs, if the cap is lifted and the money is available from the Scottish Government to top it up to what is required in every local authority area, it will not be so difficult for local authorities to manage the DHP budget because everybody effectively would be eligible to make an application and the application should be successful. What we cannot do under any scheme is take away people’s liability for the bedroom tax. That is outwith the powers of the Scottish Government. It is outwith the powers of local authorities. The bedroom tax applies and will apply until it is abolish by whichever means it is abolished. We cannot take people’s liabilities away for that. They are either building up arrears and that is something I personally do not want to see. I do not want to encourage people or expect people to build up arrears in the hope that it gets written off at a later stage, because having worked in money advice for many years, I see that is fraught with difficulties and how people feel about that when they build up arrears.

Chair

I completely understand that, completely understand that.

Margaret Burgess

To do it by giving local authorities money and say to local authorities, “You can pay somebody’s bedroom tax every week off of that”, as a Government, we are not sure that we can do that and secondly have to be careful that does not fall foul of DWP regulations where somebody gets a regular weekly payment for whatever means, from whatever source. That then affects their benefit, so they would still be liable for it. These other schemes are fraught with difficulties. The DHP scheme means that, at the outset from the start, somebody could get their application in with their housing benefit. Often their housing benefit is renewed and they would be entitled to that payment, so they are not building up arrears. They are not applying for a hardship fund. They would be entitled to it. Yes, there would be a lot of work to be done, because I absolutely accept the point you made, Chair, that there are some people difficult to engage with and get the application made, but an application could be made by a straightforward phone call from the local authority or from an organisation. “Can we make an application for the DHP?” It does not have to be difficult and we need to encourage people to make that application that they are entitled to do so. I think that is very important and people are then covered from the start with payments legally every week to help them towards the rent.

Chair

I understand and agree with some of what you have said in terms of objectives. I am not sure that you have adequately responded though to the point that has been made to us about, for example, in Dundee, 40% of people with the best will in the world and the greatest efforts that are being made are still not engaging and not filling in the forms. The groups that we mentioned are the chaotic lives and learning difficulties and mental health. As long as they can only qualify under your system by filling in these forms then it seems to me that that is not simply going to work and that is all the evidence we have had. Is there not a possibility, as you are examining a Plan B, that you would consider whether or not somebody could apply for the whole block, a bit like the Chinese general baptising his army with a hose, so if somebody did it for them and there were block applications being done without the individuals having to go through the rigmarole of applying themselves.

Margaret Burgess

I would love to have a simple way of doing it for people. The problem is it is not our legislation, as you are well aware. This is legislation from the UK Government and from the DWP. Every way we look to try to sort it, we come across another problem. It applies to the individual and in their housing benefit and will always go against that as long as we do not have control of housing benefit regulations. To do it on block, local authorities I do not think will be able to do that. Again, we are now talking about DWP legislation. I think the angle here in Scotland is saying make sure that every local authority, every landlord knows that it is not a long lengthy form for someone that is applying. It can be as straightforward as a phone call, whether or not you are subject to the bedroom tax. “If you are in difficulties, would you like to make an application?” It can be done quite simply, but we need to be sure, if we are saying that, that we have the money there to do it.

Chair

I understand the point about the money. Are you saying then that your understanding of a DHP application could be as simple as somebody from the council phoning somebody and saying, “Do you want to apply?” They say, “Yes”. That is taken as an application and it goes on from there.

Margaret Burgess

They are asked a few questions. What are the rules? The rules on DHPs are again UK Government rules, but they are quite flexible and the rules say it can be done by a phone call. What they say is local authorities must be consistent in making their applications. The difficulty with this is this is the first year this has come in and local authorities not having the full amount they require in some areas therefore cannot be proactive.

Chair

My understanding is that you have overcome it. I find a way has been found of overcoming the difficulty about rationing. There is not going to be a difficulty of there not being enough money, because the Scottish Government, through a multi-party agreement, has agreed that all the money that is needed is going to be made available. Therefore, the issue is not cutting people off because they do not have enough money. We understand that. The question is the issue of how you actually get that money to people. Now, there are people who want to come in with points relating to this, so I will take them. Jim, did you want to?

Jim McGovern

Yes, thanks Chair. We took evidence last month from David Mundell, Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on this subject at the Committee in Westminster. My understanding was that he was making clear that it was within the gift of the Scottish Government to fully mitigate the implications of bedroom tax if they so wished. It appears that they have since done so. You seem to be saying everywhere we look there is another hurdle in the way. Could you enlarge on what you mean by that?

Margaret Burgess

What I said is, yes, we will fully mitigate. I am very well aware of what David Mundell has been saying up and down the country about how the Scottish Government can fully mitigate the bedroom tax. I have raised it with him publically to come forward and tell us how, what his solution to it is. I raised the matter to Lord Freud when I last met Lord Freud and said that there were UK Government Ministers and David Mundell being one, the Under-Secretary, going around the country saying we could legally do this.

Jim McGovern

Let me just stop you there. Around about the time that David Mundell gave that evidence, it was publicised that the Deputy First Minister had written to Lord Freud seeking permission to use this money for this purpose. Subsequently, John Swinney announced, “We do not need permission. We will just go ahead and do it.” They have done so. Why did it take from last April to this February to mitigate the end part of the bedroom tax?

Margaret Burgess

A number of things: the Scottish Government has been opposing and has been opposed to the bedroom tax. It has been in communication with the UK Government about this since 2010. We have been in communication with them on this for years. We have had to look at the impact that this is having.

Jim McGovern

I do not think you have answered my question.

Margaret Burgess

I am trying to.

Jim McGovern

You have a flight to get at 6.30.

Margaret Burgess

The thing is there are many cuts that are coming to the Scottish Government so we have no money in our budget just to find spare money sitting there to mitigate a UK policy.

Jim McGovern

Is that what John Swinney meant when he said, “We do not want to let Westminster off the hook. We will let all these people suffer so we can score a political point against Westminster”?

Margaret Burgess

I am sorry. I just do not accept that and I do not think this is helpful.

Jim McGovern

That is the public perception.

Margaret Burgess

What I am saying is that the Scottish Government has done everything possible. We did what was right, which was challenge the UK Government, say to the UK Government, “This is not right. Here is the impact when we spoke with our stakeholders, our RSLs, our councils, COSLA”. We worked together collectively to look at a solution. We came up with in the current financial year the £20 million, which is the maximum we could top up the DHPs. We had to take that money out of other budgets of the Scottish Government, other priority budgets as well. We came up with that £20 million and we are criticised for that as well.

Jim McGovern

This is exactly the point the Under-Secretary of State made. The Scottish Government have this money. They have got to prioritise. If they wish to mitigate the effects of the bedroom tax, they are allowed to do so and they always have been allowed to do so.

Margaret Burgess

We are doing so. We have announced that we will mitigate the impacts of the bedroom tax in this year, but what I am saying is that that money has come out of other devolved budgets. We have to get it from somewhere.

Jim McGovern

You have prioritised.

Margaret Burgess

We have another £4.5 billion of cuts coming down the road, the 1% cap, the changes to tax credits and the changes to child benefit. We have all of this still coming. It is a small portion of what impacts the people of Scotland in our most vulnerable communities.

Jim McGovern

Why has it taken almost a year to release that funding?

Margaret Burgess

I think the Scottish Government acted very quickly to do what they could do with funding that they did not have. We found money. More has been done, for example, if we want to go down this route. More than has been done, for example, than in Wales. We are the only administration that has topped up the funding in any way to help our most vulnerable citizens.

Jim McGovern

That is not what I was looking for. It was not to see the rules, but that seems to be what you are saying.

Pamela Nash

Minister, you said that you have discussed this with Mr Mundell and the Government as to why they are saying you have the power to mitigate the bedroom tax when you do not think you do. Can I ask about those conversations?

Margaret Burgess

No, we have said we have the money to mitigate the bedroom tax this year by topping up the discretionary housing payments, or if that does not happen, by some other means. What we have said publically in exchanges with Mr Mundell and his party in the Scottish Parliament is, “Tell us the way that Mr Mundell is talking about”. I said to Lord Freud that this had been said and he said, “There is nothing you can do to get embalmed in social security and you must be within.” Yes, but we also have to be within the Scotland Act and we have to be within the Social Security Act. I am really not clear from what you have expected from me today, if the purpose of this is not about see how we can assist vulnerable people struggling with the bedroom tax.

Pamela Nash

That is exactly what.

Jim McGovern

That is the question.

Margaret Burgess

If the purpose of this to try to say, “It is all the Scottish Government’s fault for not doing something”—

Pamela Nash

No.

Margaret Burgess

—I am sorry I do not think that is the point of this.

Pamela Nash

Minister, I think that is clear. As we published in our report, we are very clear that we are angry at the UK Government and we want them to abolish the bedroom tax. If the Labour Party is in power after the next election, we will do so. However, that is not to say the Scottish Government does not have a responsibility to protect the people of Scotland. Indeed, that is why the Scottish Parliament was set up. I am still not clear and it has been asked in different ways from my colleagues here why you in the Scottish Government are insisting on going down the DHP route. That would be under social security and I understand that. However, our local authorities in Scotland—I know of at least one and I think there are others—have set up other funds in order to get out of the 150% rule of the DHP. My understanding is the Scottish Government is under the same regulations as local authorities are. I do not understand why the Scottish Government has not just set up a separate fund, called it something completely different and not be held by the DHP rules and social security rules. Now, I would appreciate if you would explain to us why that is the case.

Margaret Burgess

I will bring Jamie in but there is a difference between the Scottish Government and local authorities in terms of how we can provide welfare.

Pamela Nash

Not welfare; on DHP.

Margaret Burgess

On finding, we are specifically excluded from providing funding to individuals and to assist with anything connected with housing or housing benefit. Perhaps, Jamie, you want to give the technical side of that.

Pamela Nash

What about just a hardship fund for people suffering?

Margaret Burgess

We cannot provide welfare to individuals, can we? Do you want to come in?

Jamie MacDougall

What is important is the Scottish Government are complaining about the terms of the Scotland Act including the fact that the State does not have powers in relation to welfare. Local authorities are not bound by the Scotland Act, so they have different powers available to them. However, if the Scottish Government provides funding to the local authorities to that end, then that reservation comes in. Secondly—

Pamela Nash

Sorry, could you say that again. So you cannot—

Jamie MacDougall

The Scottish Government Ministers do not have the powers in relation to housing benefit.

Pamela Nash

I understand that.

Jamie MacDougall

That was made explicit under the terms of the Scotland Act. What I am saying is local authorities are not bound by the terms of the Scotland Act. Scottish Government Ministers are. The trouble comes when Scottish Government Ministers try to provide funding for things that they are bound under the Scotland Act for or things which are not. We get into that difficult grey area of what we can fund and how we can direct that funding. For example, the discretion is not within the scheme as a scheme of the Department of Work and Pensions within the Scottish Government. However, it is the only statutory mechanism that we are aware of where housing benefit recipients can get money to top up their housing benefit. That is what we made the point to Lord Freud for and he agreed with that. The Scottish Government has made available discretionary housing payments because it is the only statutory mechanism where we can actually provide that funding. The other schemes we are aware of that the Minister is looking at, alternative funds or whatever, are in a sense in effect debt write-off schemes. All those schemes are doing is they are allowing people to run up debt and write if off against the landlord’s books. In our view, that is a long way distant second best to the discretionary housing payment scheme, which in itself admittedly is a long way second best to not having the bedroom tax in the first place.

Pamela Nash

Just to be clear, I am not saying they do not exist, the schemes that you are referring to, the debt write-off schemes, but that is not what I am referring to. These are specific funds, sustainability funds, which are hardship funds, which have been primarily set up to help those who are suffering from the bedroom tax. I am still not clear that that would come under the Scotland Act. I am not saying it does not, I would need to seek advice on that. That would not be covered by the regulations you have just said?

Jamie MacDougall

Local authorities cannot provide money out of the hardship fund towards someone’s rent because it has been bound by the discretionary housing payment regulations, which puts a cap on the total amount of expenditure to go out. Local authorities have other forms of powers that the Scottish Government does not have. It is up to the local authority to classify which it fits within.

Pamela Nash

This is getting a bit technical, but I think this is a important point. When I sought advice on this again, and I will seek advice again, that only applies if that fund is only for a housing benefit or rent or bedroom tax mitigation. If the fund was primarily for a general hardship fund, then it would not be covered by those regulations.

Jamie MacDougall

Local authority would have to satisfy itself that it was operating under the appropriate social security regulations.

Chair

Presumably Renfrew and East Lothian have. It has been done.

Pamela Nash

North Lanarkshire.

Chair

Sorry, North Lanarkshire.

Jamie MacDougall

The schemes you are talking about are debt write-off schemes.

Chair

I just want to be clear on this, because it will come up later on, there is no difficulty about the Scottish Government funding debt write-off schemes for RSLs? Is that correct?

Margaret Burgess

We are looking at how we can operate a scheme that RSLs could access as well, because 46% of tenants affected are in RSLs which are—I heard somebody at the back—that the housing associations that are separate from local authorities.

Chair

As I understood what Jamie said was that you do have the power to run debt write-off schemes?

Jamie MacDougall

Well, it depends. It is something we are looking into, partly based on the comments made by Mr Mundell and others. What we are looking at is an alternative scheme if DHP does not.

Graeme Morrice

I appreciate you can only act within your powers as the Scottish Government and we are hearing a lot about what we cannot do. Of course we fully accept that the law that brought in the bedroom tax as passed by the UK Parliament and no one in this room wants it to continue beyond when it can ultimately, and hopefully very soon, be repealed. Can I ask in terms of your leadership role in Scotland with regards to working with local authorities, working in partnership with COSLA, working with myriad organisations out there that are against the poll tax—the bedroom tax, Freudian slip there, the bedroom tax issue. Well, it is poll tax as well. We heard evidence earlier from all those groups that were against the bedroom tax and I think some concern was expressed. A particular comment was made that 22 local authorities in Scotland were not drawing down the full amount that they are entitled to to help mitigate even part financially of the bedroom tax on their local residents. Can I ask, what are you doing in terms of working in partnership with your local authorities, providing guidance, sitting down and co-ordinating a national campaign here in Scotland with COSLA and all the other groups I mentioned earlier, to do everything you can, even thinking outside of the box. As Pamela Nash was saying earlier there is other ways of skinning a cat here.

Margaret Burgess

We work constantly with COSLA, with the third sector, looking at ways of mitigating the bedroom tax, if we can do so. We are not doing this with a closed door, this is after looking at all of the other things that have been talked about today and from the Scottish Government’s point of view, as I have said, I do not want to keep labouring on it, the DHPs are the way forward. However, we have also been very clear that will be looking at the other schemes. Some of them are not going to be doable for the Scottish Government, in terms of how they operate. We also want to make that anything that we do does not have an unintended consequence. For example, in terms of, as the kind of situation I raised earlier, if somebody was getting a regular payment every week, either by local authority or a landlord, the impact that would have on the means tested benefits. We want to make sure there is no unintended consequences in this when it happens. Also, I have said before, my view on the debt write-off, we do not want to put people into the debt situation to start with, I think that is also important. So, yes, we are working. We have worked with COSLA, all the meetings we have had with the UK Government, we have had discussions with COSLA before going with the joint meetings with COSLA and Lord Freud, and that will continue. Officials continue to work together to look at getting ways around this. My view is clear, and I have said it before, and I have said it to local authorities, there should not be local authorities sitting at the end financial year with people with rent arrears solely because of the DHP and still have not used up all the Scottish Government funding. I have said that to the local authorities, that is not acceptable, that is what the funding is for and they have to get that out there.

Chair

Can I just come back a step if I could? I mean, Danny Alexander, before David Mundell said anything, Danny Alexander has said that the Scottish Government have powers to mitigate the bedroom tax in its entirety, and then that was followed up by David Mundell. Can I just clarify whether or not you or anybody else in the Scottish Government and written directly to Danny Alexander, in particular, and said, “What exactly do you mean by this?”

Margaret Burgess

I am not aware of writing specifically to Danny Alexander, doing it in writing. We have certainly asked publicly that they provide that information and we have certainly asked across the Chamber, because every time—

Chair

I know, but I mean, across the Chamber is not quite the same thing.

Margaret Burgess

We have certainly done it publicly. We have asked them to come forward with their ways—all they are saying is that, “Yes, you can give local government money within their capital grant. You could give housing associations money”. We are not saying we couldn’t but what we give that money for, we have to make sure it meets the Scotland Act, it does not—

Chair

Given that Danny Alexander was presumably one of the villains that drew this up or at least has been partly responsible for it, given the position that he is in, when he said that you had the powers to deal with this already, I would have thought that the Scottish Government would have been leaping on his remarks and writing to him right away and saying, “Look, explain exactly what you had in mind”. I understand Parliamentary knockabout, but dealing with it across the chamber is not sufficient I would have thought.

Margaret Burgess

He has said, and his way of saying it is simply what David Mundell said, “Yes, Scottish Government can give local authorities money. Yes, Scottish Government can give housing associations money.” They must do it as David Mundell qualified his position, they have to do it within the Scotland Act and they have to do it without breaching any social security legislation. That is what we have been doing, in terms of the DHPs, because we thought that was the way forward. We are looking at how we can do it that does not have unintended consequences in all the areas we are talking about.

Chair

I understand all of that.

Margaret Burgess

They have not come up with that.

Chair

With respect, you are repeating the answer you gave us earlier about the difficulties. We understand that your view is that you have difficulties, but they have said that you do not have difficulties. They have said that it can be done. I think it is reasonable for us to be disappointed that you have tended—not you personally—but the Scottish Government have tended to deal with this in public events and debates across the chamber floor rather than actually pursuing them through official to official or writing to them to clarify exactly what the UK Government Ministers meant when they said that this could be done. Particularly strongly before that given that all the evidence we have had is that DHPs are not the best way of dealing with this. I am not looking for disagreement where there is not any, in this since, because I think both of us want to try to ameliorate the effects of the bedroom tax as best we can. However, I think there is a genuine disagreement perhaps about whether or not DHPs are the best way of doing it. Given all the reservations that we have had from witnesses about the difficulties of getting people to apply for DHPs, I wonder again, if even at this late stage, the Scottish Government will consider approaching Danny Alexander and David Mundell directly to say, “Look, spell it out”, because they have said they made the commitment, they have made the statement, “Spell out exactly how this can be done”. Does that not seem reasonable to you?

Margaret Burgess

Well, when they have been asked that, I may be wrong, but again the answer was the Scottish Government can give local authorities funding. It may well be that we certainly get assistance from this Committee to do it, to get them to spell it out in absolutely detail how they think we can take this forward, what they were talking about. I have no objection to doing that. However, we still have to—we are coming up to 1 April, we know the UK Government are already making changes to the regulation to cover another thing, and it would be a simple matter for them to do it with the DHP. The money is available, if then people are not getting that, it is back to hardship and applying for it.

Chair

We are here to help you, as I am sure you appreciate, but I am not sure, even if the cap was lifted, it would still achieve the objective of reaching everyone who requires to have the bedroom tax burden lifted from them. That is may be just a disagreement that we have, and that we are not going to reach a consensus on.

Margaret Burgess

I understand where you are coming from with that, absolutely. However, there is no scheme yet that is up and operating that we have seen that would not either involve debt write-off or some building on that arrears sitting next to the rent account beside their name, other than getting the regular debt discretionary housing agreement. Absolutely right, we want to get it out to people, we need to make sure it gets out, and looking at any ways that we can do that would be very helpful. If we cannot, we have already said we will look at how else we get that money out there.

Chair

Plan B, right. Okay. Can I just mention that we are being filmed by Scottish Television, so if anybody is on the run from the Child Support Agency or the police or anything like that, if you want to disguise yourselves then— You have mentioned a couple of times there about debt write-off, because one of the issues that we have been looking at is not the question of going forward, but the question of your going back. We have said that we would like to see that debts that people have run up as a result of the imposition of the bedroom tax being written off. Then we also want to see the money refunded. I am right in thinking that your powers that you have agreed to have debt write-off would cover arrears that people have run up so far?

Margaret Burgess

We have committed, in this current financial year, £20 million to local authorities to top up discretionary housing payments and mitigate against the bedroom tax. A legitimate discretionary housing payment can be to write off a debt. That is written-off and does not sit next to the individual. If the local authorities still have money that is unused for discretionary housing payments, in the year forward it would be hoped that if we could get this up and running properly there should not be debts accrued because of the bedroom tax in the year starting April 2014. We have said we have got £15 million in total, including the money we get from the DHP to fully mitigate. Therefore, there should not be people in debt because of the bedroom tax.

Chair

Let me just be clear about this then. The £50 million that is allocated going forward should meet all the costs of the bedroom tax for future years? It is your view that the money that has already been allocated should be sufficient to write off all the debts that people have incurred by using DHPs?

Margaret Burgess

No, I did not say to write off all the debts people have had. To some local authority, as have already been mentioned, we committed last year, or this current financial year, £20 million. That was all the money the Scottish Government had in their budget available, £20 million, which we took from other funds to help mitigate the bedroom tax. From that money there should not be any of that £20 million left in the local authorities for people in arrears.

Chair

I understand that.

Margaret Burgess

That money should be used for that. Some local authorities have used some of their own funds, as I think was mentioned by a Member earlier, to assist with debt write-off. Our commitment for this financial year is £20 million.

Chair

I understand that, but if you are spending £50 million next year to meet all the costs of the bedroom tax then clearly £20 million for the current year is not going to be sufficient to meet the same level of difficulties. Presuming that the £20 million is in addition to the other money, is it? Or addition to the local authority money? Maybe you can just clarify for me whether or not that £20 million takes the overall figure up to £50 million for the current year?

Margaret Burgess

No, the £20 million for the current year. There is £20 million to top up—the figure to top up was the £20 million. The discretionary housing payments we currently have from the DWP would be—

Jamie MacDougall

The UK funding DHPs in this financial year was £13.5 million without—

Margaret Burgess

That is £33.5 million available for discretionary housing payments—

Chair

Already?

Margaret Burgess

—in this current financial year.

Chair

An extra £20 million should mean it is the same amount of money available for the current year as you are making available for the year going forward, is that right?

Margaret Burgess

No. The year coming forward we are still making that £20 million available plus another £15 million.

Chair

Oh, sorry, 15? Sorry, I thought you said 50. Sorry, I misheard.

Margaret Burgess

It will bring the total up for the next financial year to 50 million.

Chair

Right, sorry.

Jamie MacDougall

Just to be clear—

Chair

Maybe I am just being slow on the uptake here. These things are quite complex. I just want to make sure that you are telling us that there is enough money being made available in the current year to write off all the debts?

Margaret Burgess

No. The current year, we are talking about the year that stops at 31 March. What I said, in the current year the Scottish Government made available £20 million to add to the £15 million or £30 million—

Chair

That is insufficient to stop arrears building up?

Margaret Burgess

It may be in some cases.

Chair

Well, it must be by definition, because if it is costing £50 million next year and you are spending £35 million this year, then it seems to me that there is a gap there of £15 million.

Margaret Burgess

For example, next year is done on the premise that every single person would be eligible for a discretionary housing payment of every scheme that is set up. That was never said in this current financial year. We said we would top up the discretionary housing payments. There are some local authority areas where it is the minority of people who are not paying, or who are applying for discretionary housing payments and some people are not paying the bedroom tax element. I know that people are struggling to do that, but I would have to reiterate, this is a policy not of the making of the Scottish Government. We have had to raid our other funds to do it. We had to do this in the last year with £20 million. But we have looked at it again, we have talked with other parliamentarians and said this year coming—and we will look at it in future years ahead—we will mitigate fully—

Chair

I completely understand that.

Margaret Burgess

We will fully mitigate 2014.

Chair

I completely understand, and it is a question of priorities. It is a priority for the next year, but it is not a priority for the current year then? Is that ...?

Margaret Burgess

No, it is not—that is just simply a misrepresentation. This is a Government that had our budgets cut by the UK Government in real terms by over 11%. This is a Government that had a budget put together, agreed and gone through and we found out that we had to take money from other budgets to help with the bedroom tax—

Chair

That is right, I understand that.

Margaret Burgess

—and that is the amount we came to.

Chair

If it was enough of a priority you would be taking more money from other budgets. Politics is about choices, I understand that you have made a number of choices and taken more money from other budgets to meet the cost of the bedroom tax, it is clearly not as much of a priority as, say, I might wish. However, that is a political choice. You are budgeting, as I understand it, that you will continue to have arrears in the bedroom tax, built up this year going forward, right? How do you propose that those be dealt with?

Margaret Burgess

In some areas the Scottish Government does not collect rent or collecting housing benefit.

Chair

No.

Margaret Burgess

Local authorities and social landlords have that responsibility. We have provided mitigation funding to help them talk to their tenants to how they could work with it. We have provided money for debt advice, for money advice. The £20 million from the bedroom tax is part of a package that the Scottish Government—we are spending over the five years £258 million in mitigating policies of the UK Government. I think that has to be recognised. Clearly, we cannot mitigate all of the impacts of the UK Government’s welfare reforms, so we are doing what we can. We have given considerable amounts of money already, we will continue to do so. We will continue to look at other ways how we can help with people that are most affected by welfare reform. The bedroom tax, I have to say is just a small part of the impact welfare reforms are going to have on people, and we cannot—

Chair

To be fair, we do understand. We do understand that. There is always a danger of looking at the bedroom tax in isolation from the other issues. It is because it has had a higher political priority to some extent, a higher profile, that we tend to focus on that. I completely accept that. However, then we did make the clear recommendation that, unless I am mistaken, you are rejecting on behalf of the Scottish Government. Our recommendation was that ways should be found of writing off arrears and that there should be a refund of the monies that people have already paid for the period up until now, because that is effectively what you are doing going forward. If it is a bad policy next week, then presumably it is a bad policy last week. Is that your policy? Have I understood this correctly?

Margaret Burgess

There is no mechanism that we are aware of anywhere for either ourselves or anyone else to pay back people money that they have paid out in rent. As a Government we cannot do that.

Chair

Is this a political will? I mean, if you wanted to do it would you do it? We will help you if you want to find a way of doing it.

Margaret Burgess

I think we have to look at what the Scottish Government has committed, what the Scottish Government has already given in welfare mitigation. What we have to look at is what is happening in the years ahead as well—

Chair

I do understand that.

Margaret Burgess

—we do not want to see people in arrears because of bedroom tax. We think that we can tap at the resources, the £20 million better, if and our funding next year, if the cap were lifted we could get it direct to the areas and the local authorities where there is the demand, where people are struggling to pay, and not areas where there is not the same need for the bedroom tax. We are doing that. I am not going to sit here today and say that the Scottish Government has the budget, where it would come from, I would have to—I cannot commit the Scottish Government to say, “Yes we will go and we will pay back that money to people if there was a mechanism to do it”, because that is just something that I would not sit here and be dishonest and say I could do that. What I would say is that we objected to the bedroom tax from the outset, as your own Committee has done. It is fraught with difficulties because we are dealing with a piece of UK legislation and trying to resolve it within the Scotland Act and our reserved powers, and that is fraught with difficulties. We are doing everything we can. The view of the Scottish Parliament is that the discretionary housing payment is the best way to deal with that. I accept the point you make that people are not engaging, and I think there is work for us all to do in that to get these people—but the Scottish Parliament is overwhelmingly of the view that that is the best way forward and the route we should take. I would hope that your Committee would be in support of trying to get—

Chair

Yes. I want to be clear, that we disagree about it being the best route. We also think, privately I suspect, the Scottish Government accepts that the UK Government is not going to agree to lift the cap. Therefore you are going to have to look for a plan B. We are satisfied from what you are saying to us that a plan B is being sought. I am quite prepared to accept in good faith that yourselves and others are trying to find another way of doing it. Again, I think it is important for our recommendations. Where I think we are in disagreement is that you are not supporting our recommendation about writing-off existing debt, nor our recommendation about paying back those that have already paid some of the bedroom tax, irrespective of the difficulties. These are two elements always to these sorts of things. Firstly, is the question, can it be done and how it can be done. The other is, do you want to do it. I detect signs that you basically do not want to do it. If that is not the case and this is something that you feel you are going to take back for somebody else in the Scottish Government, I can understand that. It is always a temptation for Ministers to go places and commit their Government to huge amounts of spending, I understand that temptation. If you want to resist that and say, “Look, I will take this back” I think we would accept that, and we would then pursue it elsewhere. Is that in fact what you are saying?

Margaret Burgess

I did not say as a blanket, we would not agree to write off arrears and provide funding. What I said is some of the funding we have provided is under the DHPs, can be used to write off arrears, because you can have a deal to write off rent arrears. At this stage, I do not think the figures are in, and I might pass you to Jamie for that. I do not know the level of arrears when there was Scottish Government funding available, because we give it to local authorities who manage it, we cannot do that. I think paying back is not just fraught for a Government to do or say we can do, but fraught because we are paying back something to a tenant, to an individual who has paid it out to housing benefit, which does not come to the council, which does not come to the Government. I would think that there is a mechanism to do that. I understand some people may feel they are paying and others are not, and others have a DHP and have their arrears written-off and I understand the difficulties. However, certainly in terms of arrears, I did not say that we would not write off arrears. We gave money when it was there, for local authorities to use to mitigate any way they can.

Chair

I am sorry to repeat the point, but the amount of money that we are seeing is not enough.

Margaret Burgess

The amount of money would not be enough if nobody at all had paid any bedroom tax anywhere in Scotland. That is why next year we are doing it on the premise that everybody should be mitigated.

Chair

You think that the amount of money that is already available is enough to cover all the areas that have been built up?

Margaret Burgess

I would need to look at that and check with the local authorities at the end of the year. I do not want to—

Chair

That is a reasonable position. If it turns out that it is not enough would you undertake to look at it again?

Margaret Burgess

We will always undertake to look at anything that our local authorities have cause to bring to us.

Chair

We can go back then, can we, and say to local authorities and the campaigning groups that are here, that if the amount of money that has been made available has not proven to be sufficient to overcome the question of debt, then the Scottish Government will look at that again?

Margaret Burgess

What I am saying is if that is not enough we would have these discussions with COSLA and also if the cap gets lifted then the money this year, I do not know, perhaps we will have to go to Jamie, may be able to assist for debts from last year. We are in an area here that we are not in control of.

Chair

No, I understand that. I remember being a councillor in Strathclyde during the time of the miners’ strike when we wanted to help miner’s families. It was incredibly difficult to do. The difference is the political will was there. We decided that this is where we wanted to go and we tried to find ways of doing it. I think that is the issue that is not entirely clear here. That is very helpful, just now your last statement, which as I understand was basically you will look at, in the forthcoming year with the money that has been made available then, whether or not that can be used to deal with arrears that have built up. If that money is not sufficient then that amount of money would be reviewed and reconsidered. I think that is something that is constructive and helpful.

Jim McGovern

Just following on from what you said, Chair, about the political will. I do not really often find myself agreeing with a Tory minister, but David Mundell also said in his evidence to the Scottish Affairs Select Committee just last month, that he felt the attitude of the Government in Scotland was—and I could quote what he thinks that which it was—if you agree to take further this issue let us choose the basis that the UK Government is likely to find the least able to work with and seek to create a Scotland only issue. Listening to your answers, it seems more and more to me like David Mundell called that one correctly. He is saying that it was possible and always has been possible for the Scottish Government to mitigate the effects of the bedroom tax. It looks to us, and certainly looks to David Mundell as if the Scottish Government is looking at every hurdle and saying, “Cannot be done, cannot be done, cannot be done”, “A bad boy did it” and running away.

Margaret Burgess

Well if I could say something on that. Chair, I am not particularly concerned with what David Mundell said. David Mundell is—and you are quoting him as a Tory—David Mundell’s party introduced the bedroom tax. David Mundell supported the bedroom tax and David Mundell comes up to Scotland and sees the impact that it is having on the people in Scotland that we told him about ages ago. Now we have a right as a government to challenge him in that every time, and we have done so. We are not looking for a difficult way, and asking for the cap to be removed is a very simple way. It is a piece of secondary legislation that they are taking through another piece in any case, it would not be difficult. The UK Government still gets their savings, because this is what is has all been about—the UK Government making savings. They still get their savings on it, and it allows the Scottish Government to deal with it in the way that the Scottish Parliament thinks is an appropriate way to deal with it. That is the way I look at it. For David Mundell to talk about political posturing is just not acceptable to me. We are trying to take it on in the constitution or whatever, because I did read what he said. We actually thought it was a simple way for the UK Government to say, “Okay. We get our savings in it. It is not a piece of work you can do. Housing reserve in Scotland, the housing benefit is not—okay, we will agree that you can do it your way by lifting the cap.” It is costing them nothing, it is a simple way to do it and allows the Scottish Parliament to take forward what we have decided, which is to get the cap lifted.

Jim McGovern

Thank you. Just one other point here. We are in a meeting with members of the public in attendance and we are certainly not trying to insult anybody’s intelligence by any means, but some of the answers that you have given are just going right over my head. I do not know how everybody else feels about it, but I would hope—I will try and keep the next one simple for you, and hope you can give a fairly simple answer. David Mundell also suggested that local authorities have the power to re-designate or redefine what a bedroom is. That would be if someone is using a room in their house for an alternative purpose, for example, a teenager studying for exams or for disabled equipment, et cetera, then the Scottish Government have the power to re-designate. Do you think that is something the Scottish Government would consider in the future?

Margaret Burgess

The Scottish Government does not have the power to do that, with respect.

Jim McGovern

He has lied again?

Margaret Burgess

I certainly wrote to—

Jim McGovern

He was under oath when he gave this evidence.

Margaret Burgess

The Scottish Government does not have the power to tell local authorities how to run their housing stock. We certainly had this discussion. Because clearly it seems like a good way forward for a local authority to say that this is not a three bedroom house, it is a two bedroom or it is a one bed. I wrote to local authorities in March last year about this asking them to consider it. Immediately the DWP put around a circular saying that they would not accept any blanket re-designation of houses, because that would be circumventing the rules and their intention. That is what David Mundell was asking us to do.

Jim McGovern

Well, I will tell you exactly his words, it is quoted here, “The UK Government do not place any bias on the ability of the Scottish Government to re-designate properties.” You are saying he is wrong?

Margaret Burgess

The Scottish Government does not designate properties; local authorities designate the properties. Now we have had discussions, for example, with housing associations who tell us that they have to look at their wider housing stock, not just the houses affected by the bedroom tax. You could have a row of houses all the same size, some people are affected by the bedroom tax, some people not. You would have to re-designate all the properties, look at how that impacted the rental income, the housing associations are telling us that would impact on their covenants—

Jim McGovern

On the point the Chair made earlier on about what David Mundell said and what Danny Alexander said, I would have thought the Scottish Government would have said, to use the parlance, “We’ve won a watch there, let’s write to them and say outline how de do that”. Can you see the points here about re-designation, but why do you not just write and say, “Can you clarify this. Explain it comprehensively”? That record of statement is under oath at the meeting. Explain it, please.

Margaret Burgess

There are a number of things in that, and certainly Jamie might want to come in a bit more on the technicalities of it. We meet our housing associations, COSLA and our local authorities frequently, and this is not an area as they see as being a solution to the bedroom tax either.

Jim McGovern

Well, our solution is to abolish it but until we get that done—

Margaret Burgess

They do not see it as helping things. They see it perhaps costing them more in administration, causing them problems with the financing, as I said earlier, causing problems in the rental income where they have to change the rents of all the properties. There have been lots of cases, as we know individual cases, for re-designation that have been successful at tribunals, and I know there have been many more down south than there has been in Scotland, because there is not the same support provided to the top up of the DHP in some areas. I would say while I absolutely understand what you are saying, we are all looking at ways to—we all want to abolish the bedroom tax, I accept that everybody in this room I am sure wants to abolish the bedroom tax. But what I would say is that, in looking at that as a means to do it, a blanket re-designation is not a solution that local authorities tell us that want to adopt. Jamie, you might want to say what the role of the Scottish Government is, in terms of we are not landlords.

Jamie MacDougall

Well, the quite simple reasons we have asked to clarify it is because it does not really matter how the Scottish Government views a property and how many bedrooms are in it. For housing benefit the only entity that matters about how many bedrooms there are is the DWP. A landlord has to tell the local authority revenues and benefits section what the properties are, how much the housing benefit apply for them. The construction of that, in terms of how many bedrooms, DWP then decides, or if there is any families that need their housing benefit docked because they under-occupying. The Scottish Government comes in with Scottish legislation saying, “No we think that is a two bedroom, or one bedroom” but that does not make any difference, because it is that relationship between DWP and the local authority that counts.

Pamela Nash

Just to follow up on that, my recollection of the conversations in the Scottish Parliament about the mitigation of the bedroom tax a year ago, the Scottish Government’s argument was that they did not have the money to mitigate it. I do not remember many arguments about the mechanism being the problem. I seem to remember Johann Lamont being asked what she would do, what she would cut in order to fund it. She was not asked what she thought the mechanism was from the First Minister. I have to say, with my colleagues, we are flabbergasted that you, as the Housing Minister, did not contact the Chief Secretary to the Treasury when he said very publicly that the Scottish Government had the power to mitigate the bedroom tax now. That leaves me thinking that this delay is only an excuse as to why the Scottish Government has not mitigated the bedroom tax for the last year.

Margaret Burgess

I do not accept that at all. The Scottish Government from the outset have said for three years they have been fighting the bedroom tax and welfare reforms, and I have to say, and I think the Chair accepted it, it is part of an overall package of welfare reforms that we were listening to in the Welfare Reform Committee, listening to the real stories of people, not just impacted by the bedroom tax, impacted by the Work Capability Assessment, impacted now by the sanctions and the cuts in their benefit. We set up the Scottish Welfare Fund, we talked it up as well. We have put lots of money into mitigation, we have been opposed to the bedroom tax, but rightly we have challenged the UK Government at every turn. We do not think we are getting the right share of discretionary housing payments in any case, because we have 14% of people, I think, affected by the bedroom tax and get 9% of the discretionary housing payments. We get less in Scotland for discretionary housing payments than they do in London, although we have more people impacted.

Pamela Nash

Is that not just because the rents are cheaper though?

Margaret Burgess

No, the fact that the rents are higher in London is not a problem for Scotland. The fact is that we have got more tenants in Scotland affected by the bedroom tax, so we should be getting an appropriate share of that. We have taken that challenge on with the UK Government.

Chair

Sorry. I think this is quite an important point to address, it has been done on the basis of need, rather than just simply on the basis of population and, just as Scotland benefits compared to the rest of the UK in a whole number of different ways when cash is allocated according to need. Here you cannot even make a reasonable comparison between rents in London and rents in Scotland. There are boroughs of London that are getting more DHP than Glasgow, but that is on the basis that their rents are five and six times higher. Therefore, the payments necessarily are so much greater. We have managed to have a reasonable consensus on a number of points up until now. I do think that that is an unfair and unreasonable point if I may say so.

Margaret Burgess

Well it is a point nevertheless that I make. 24% of tenants in Scotland are in the social rented sector, which is a higher percentage than other areas. We do not think we are getting our proper share of DHPs. Even the way the DWP distribute the DHPs is still not in areas of need. Because there are some areas in Scotland where—even talking up to the maximum and that is why we want the cap lifted—is not enough. There are other areas who are getting money from the DWP for DHPs and do not require it all. It is not done according to need and that is why we want to target that effectively and make sure that the areas that do need it get enough to cover them. I think you would agree that that is—

Chair

My understanding is that if you had, as you wished, the ability to top up DHPs above the 150%, those payments would be entirely demand led, and therefore, the question of allocation would not come into it. That is one of the ways of overcoming the difficulties. That would also apply to the plan B. Whatever plan B is found, if it is genuinely demand led then this allocation would be overcome as well.

Margaret Burgess

It would be demand-led.

Chair

I am always happy to find things where we agree, rather than finding a disagreement unnecessarily. I think that has covered all the points as we want. As I said informally before we came in, we always make a point of asking people whether or not they had any answers prepared to questions that we have not asked or any points that you feel that we have missed that you want to leave with us?

Margaret Burgess

No, I think I would only just again ask the Committee to do anything that they can to support us in trying to get the DWP to agree to lift that cap. That is the preferred route of the Scottish Parliament to take this forward and help people. We will then certainly do everything to ensure that that money gets out to those families that need it.

Chair

I think it would be inappropriate for me not to respond by saying that we have been to West Lothian, Falkirk, we have been here in Dundee; councils of different political persuasions; we have met all the campaign groups. Nobody believes that DHP is the best way of tackling this. However, we are also happy to have support from Falkirk and West Lothian and indeed unanimously from Dundee in an outbreak of unity from the councillors that we had before us. They are all in favour of writing-off the debts and repaying the amount of money. So hopefully you will be able to take that away with you as well. Thank you very much for being with us. Oral evidence: The Impact of the bedroom Tax in Scotland, HC 937-vi 2