Oral evidence: Female genital mutilation , HC 1091Tuesday 11 March 2014
Oral evidence, 11 March 2014.
Witnesses
Christine Townsend and Muna Hassan, Integrate Bristol, gave evidence.
Chair
Christine Townsend and Muna Hassan, you have been sitting through that evidence. You know what this inquiry is about. I say to colleagues that we have half an hour with these witnesses because there is a vote at about 5.30pm. We will keep our questions as quick and as succinct as possible. Could you tell us what exactly does your group do in Bristol in order to educate girls and boys, men and women, and members of the community, about the horrendous effects of FGM?
Christine Townsend
We are an education-based organisation. We are founded by teachers and experienced youth workers and we do participant-led projects that are led by the young people that choose to take part. We are facilitators of their voice. We are not imposing a particular way of doing something or a particular project that they need to be completing. It is about how they want to proceed with their project and the messages that they choose to put across through the work that they do.
Chair
Muna Hassan, have you encountered opposition from parents or community leaders as regards your very important and effective campaign? Are people coming up to you and saying, “We don’t really want to know about this. This is a community issue. We will handle it within the community”?
Muna Hassan
When we started the work, each child that joins has a permission letter sent home to make sure that their parents know that they are joining a charity that does work not just on FGM, but on violence against women and girls. Each parent signs that letter and that is how each child joins in. All the parents from the group of children in Integrate Bristol are very supportive of the work. The issue is that most people tend to go not to the parents of these children but to extended members of the community. When we started the work, they were very open about their opinions when it came to us doing the work. Quite a few of them were very against it and it was usually always men. There was one woman that was at the very forefront of stopping the work, but usually it was a group of men who were really against it. What they did is they tried to put pressure on the young people’s parents, so that the parents could take the children out of the project. What that did was it only gave a voice to the young people’s mothers who wanted them to do the work, because all of a sudden their young girls were coming home empowered and were talking about not just female genital mutilation but were talking about violence against women and girls in general.
Chair
How do you share your information with other organisations? Obviously Integrate Bristol is an example of a successful organisation. Are there other similar organisations in other parts of the country that work to try to discover how many people are involved in this?
Christine Townsend
We are not aware of any other organisation that exclusively works with young people around this. We know that Forward have youth groups—they work with groups of young people—but we are coming from a sector that is about children and young people, and it is about the skills and the understanding of how to work with that generation. Rather than FGM as a subject matter, it is about the skills and the knowledge and the support within the organisations around you, and that multi-agency working that is about the age group.
Mr Winnick
Ms Hassan, you were born and raised in Sweden.
Muna Hassan
Yes.
Mr Winnick
You make the point, am I right, that in Sweden schools include education about FGM in the curriculum?
Muna Hassan
I am not really sure of that question because I was nine years old. I am not 100% sure what they included in their education, but what I do know, especially from hearing from family members in Sweden, is that they have an open discussion about FGM among their peers in school, and with the teacher sometimes. I do not know whether it is embedded within their curriculum and whether they do that through PSHE, which I think is compulsory there, or whether the teacher initiates the conversation on FGM.
Mr Winnick
So what is done in Sweden is certainly not being done in Britain at the moment. Is that what you are saying?
Muna Hassan
Yes. Coming from a secondary school that had a large practising community, not a single teacher ever approached me and spoke to us about FGM. Even though we were discussing violence against women and girls, FGM wasn’t seen as violence against women and girls. It was just that other form of abuse people don’t want to talk about.
Mr Winnick
Can I bring your attention to what you said in the interview about politicians—obviously British politicians, I assume—frightened of losing votes or being accused of racism, hence the reason nothing effectively is done. Do you think that is still true?
Muna Hassan
I think that recently, given what has been going on with Jane Ellison, who is doing amazing and incredible work within public health, politicians are not as scared of voicing their opinions. But I do think that politicians still to this day would rather talk to the men of the Somali communities than go to the women who are the heart of the communities. The mayor in Bristol, for example, went to the women and wanted to discuss the issues that faced them, and that got him votes, rather than going to a group of men and saying, “They speak for the entire Somali community.”
Mr Winnick
Would you take the view that as far as racism is concerned, it would be racism to be indifferent to the victims of this practice?
Muna Hassan
Yes.
Chair
That is very helpful.
Michael Ellis
I think, Muna, you were born in Sweden—according to my briefing notes—and moved to the UK aged nine. Is that right?
Muna Hassan
Yes.
Michael Ellis
How does the UK compare to Sweden in dealing with FGM and also—either of you—are there any lessons from other countries? We spoke about Australia with the previous witnesses. Are there any lessons that the UK can learn from other countries and how they deal with FGM?
Muna Hassan
Talking to my mother about FGM and what she experienced in Sweden compared to when she came to this country, Sweden were very open when it came to FGM, especially having discussions with practising communities. Her midwife brought up the subject the day she found out she was pregnant. Even though they did not know the sex of the child they still brought up FGM and said, “Do you know the laws in this country?” They followed that up all the way till I was in nursery and so on. So my mother said that, in Sweden, people were openly talking to her about FGM and the impacts of FGM. She came to a country where FGM wasn’t even on the radar and schools did not even seem to be concerned. She was quite shocked that I was one of the first young people to actually do the work in this country because she thought, “Why wasn’t this done 30 years ago?”
Christine Townsend
I am a teacher by profession and I led the curriculum area of personal health and social education, which is where sexual health education would fit. We have a problem in this country not only in relation to FGM, but in relation to all of the other issues around violence against women, mental health, emotional health, and drug and alcohol use, because schools can opt out if they wish and parents can opt out if they wish. I was the teacher that Nimco was speaking about earlier. I was able to get something into the curriculum at the academy that I was working in, but I had a fight year on year to try to get timetable space. I would get perhaps three or four staff members who were given PSHE to deliver because they had a couple of spaces on their timetable. That in itself gives the subject a status. We need to put some energy and some effort into forcing it up the education system. That is what happens in Holland. It is not just about this particular subject, it is around lots of other areas whereby young people are able to openly discuss this as a generation. It is the only place where young people discuss these issues as a generation, and that is where the social norms will change. That is where they get the empowerment from and that is what Integrate Bristol has been able to provide for them. We set up Integrate because there was nothing. There were no structures within the school and there was nowhere to go with this so we needed somewhere else.
Michael Ellis
Well done, and thank you.
Dr Huppert
First of all, just to be very clear on the sexual relationships education, your view would be—disagree if you wish; I do not want to put words into your mouth—that it should be compulsory at all schools and for all pupils and there should not be exemptions for parents or schools? Is that right?
Muna Hassan
Yes.
Christine Townsend
I think it needs to be in the context of personal social and health education. Just taking relationships and sexual health would mean that you would leave out quite a lot of other things that are also issues for our young people. We are talking about FGM here, but there are issues for our young people around legal highs at the moment, for example, and that would also be the subject area where this would be openly and safely spoken about.
Dr Huppert
But the compulsory nature of it, you think it should be there for every pupil in every school?
Christine Townsend
Yes, I do.
Dr Huppert
Thank you. That is really helpful. In terms of FGM specifically, how much training do you think there is for teachers on this? How have you managed to get more in Bristol, if you have managed to, and what more should there be in the rest of the country?
Christine Townsend
I trained at Goldsmiths in 1996. I did not know then but it was considered one of the best PGCE courses in the country. I had nothing. One of my first teaching practices was with Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, which is a PSHE lead school in the country. I had no training during that time. I led training and planned the training that happened in school where we worked. I think that gives you some idea of where we are with the profession.
Dr Huppert
Have you managed to get any to happen in Bristol?
Muna Hassan
Integrate Bristol does session plans on how to train teachers when it comes to FGM. We use resources that the young people have created, such as Dilemma, which I am going to deliver for an Islington school tomorrow for the staff.
Paul Flynn
Just on the role of politicians, there are challenges with groups from different cultures. There are problems of forced marriages. There is a problem of consanguinity where there have been traditions in some areas of women being forced into marrying very close relatives, which results in a large number of birth defects. This is by far the worst example I think we have come across, but do you think it is the duty of politicians to speak out on this and to try to influence those communities, even though there would be very negative reaction from the males in those communities?
Muna Hassan
I feel like it is the politicians’ job to speak out to the community because they were voted in by the community, and to compare that fear of being ridiculed by certain groups of men within that community with saving so many girls, especially these young girls, their futures and their sexual well-being. I feel with politicians they often think about votes rather than the young people and these young girls’ voices.
Paul Flynn
I would like to have a long conversation with you about this. Do you think that the remedy suggested by the two previous witnesses of going through the system and monitoring the girls from a very early age is the way to reduce this, or is it better to try to influence the elders in the community to change their view?
Muna Hassan
I think it is through young people you will change the mindset of others. I know that through doing this work there were girls who thought FGM was fine and they did not really see what was wrong with it until they started to do this work, and then they realised, “I will never, ever cut my daughter because I know the implications of FGM.” But with older members of the community they have already made up their minds. They either want FGM or they don’t. They have made up their minds. It is the younger ones you need to influence. It is to them that you need to give the voice—that platform where they can speak about not just FGM but violence against women and girls in general.
Paul Flynn
Is there any hope of influencing the religious leaders of groups or are they set in their ways and unchangeable?
Christine Townsend
I think there are some. When we made “Silent Scream”, we found a sheikh in Cardiff that was very open, and he came on film and was open about the fact that it is not in the Koran. There is a very weak khalif that mentions it. Sometimes the religious leaders themselves also do not want to take on that backlash. They do not want to take on those other issues as well. I think it is really important that we get political leadership, particularly within the education sector. Part of the barriers that we faced as a school and as individual teachers is a lack of leadership. That is where the fear comes from. It is the fear that you are going to be the teacher or the head teacher that puts your head above the parapet and then all the ammo comes towards you.
Paul Flynn
Thank you very much.
Mark Reckless
Do you think it is possible to re-focus FGM as child abuse rather than treating it as a separate area?
Christine Townsend
I think so, yes. That is exactly the route we need to go down. I completely agree with what Leyla and Nimco were saying. I think the sector and the professions that have children and young people will see it once it is framed as that. I personally did not have an issue. I was like, “Why is this something else?” But certainly within Bristol, we are beginning to see that change—the understanding and that conceptual understanding that, yes, it is child abuse. Would you agree?
Muna Hassan
I think FGM is child abuse. There is no other way of saying it, so let’s deal with it how we would deal with any other form of child abuse. Let’s not “other” it. Let’s not say, “Oh this is FGM and these are all other forms of child abuse.” FGM is child abuse.
Mark Reckless
There is specific legislation relating to FGM. Do you think that is getting in the way of seeing it as child abuse pure and simple?
Muna Hassan
I think Leyla was right. We have other laws that protect young people and young girls from FGM. We can use them as well. I do not know why we are so focused on FGM legislation all the time. There are other laws there to protect all children in this country.
Chair
Thank you. Have you had any evidence from many of the children who you deal with about where these cutters are? Who are they? Are they doctors in the community? Are they people who come from abroad? Is there any evidence or information you have about them?
Christine Townsend
No. Because we deal with it as an issue, so as an organisation, we are not offering counselling or medical support. We are signposting our young people to that if they need it. A few years ago, there were rumours that there was a cutter in Bristol, but that was a few years ago. It was at the beginning of the recession, so the idea is that it was cheaper to bring one person over than to send lots of families abroad.
Chair
Yes. What about the nine point action plan of the Royal Colleges, which sets out a very clear guidance as to the need for health professionals to report this happening. Presumably you both support it and you want to see it implemented?
Christine Townsend
Yes, I would support reporting absolutely.
Lorraine Fullbrook
The e-petition that was backed by campaigners from Integrate Britain and The Guardian garnered huge amounts of support, and Michael Gove has agreed to write to every school. This question is directed to both of you. What steps would you like to see next?
Muna Hassan
Compulsory training for all front-line staff.
Chair
Sorry, could you speak up, Ms Hassan.
Muna Hassan
I said compulsory training for all frontline staff and teachers, because they will be the first point of contact. A child might go to them and be like, “I am scared of having FGM,” or, “I know someone who will have FGM.” If your teacher does not even know what it is, how are they supposed to protect you? I think that is the next step—to make sure all staff are trained.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Would you agree with that?
Christine Townsend
Yes. I would agree that staff need the training, and the at-risk indicators need to be within—it is not just about the teaching profession, but about the admissions and the people looking at admissions. It is about all of those, including the learning support assistance, because everybody has a role to play in protecting children in this particular form of child abuse and in all of them. It needs to be across the board.
Mr Winnick
There is a dilemma about prosecutions. Much has been made of the fact—and rightly—that there has not been a single prosecution. An unsuccessful prosecution would obviously send all the wrong messages, while a successful one would generate the kind of publicity we would like to see. There is a dilemma, which you recognise presumably in your wish to see prosecutions against this vile practice.
Muna Hassan
I think seeing a prosecution would send a message to all communities, but prevention is what we need to focus on right now. To have a prosecution means a girl was mutilated, but to an amazing prevention system in place would mean all girls are well protected in this country. We have zero prosecutions to celebrate, but I guess we are still at the point where we are still talking about whether FGM should be talked about in the education system. We are talking about FGM at a completely different level compared to other forms of abuses.
Mr Winnick
You recognise the dilemma over a prosecution that could be unsuccessful?
Christine Townsend
I do. We are kind of where rape or sexual assault against children was perhaps 20 or 30 years ago. There is a long way to go with it I think, in terms of changing understanding and getting it into our system so that it comes out the other end. I think it would help and send a strong message, but the area we are interested in is getting to the hearts and minds, and educating and giving a voice to young people so that they can change it together.
Mr Winnick
Successful prosecutions, the first if it comes about as we hope, would undoubtedly generate a good deal of publicity that would send signals, would it not, to those who would otherwise not take notice?
Christine Townsend
Yes, absolutely and it would suggest that that particular system is working and it has come to a conclusion.
Mr Winnick
Thank you.
Chair
Muna Hassan and Christine Townsend, thank you very much for coming here today. You have come a long way from Bristol to be with us. We are most grateful. The Committee has started its inquiry. It will go on until probably the end of May. If you have any ideas of people who we should see as witnesses, please let us know. We may well come to Bristol as part of our inquiry, and if we do we will be in touch with you so that you could arrange for us perhaps to see some of the people who are in your organisation. But carry on with your very good work. We are very impressed with what you have done and you must feel that suddenly everyone is talking about this issue whereas you have been working away at it for many years. It is not quite the cavalry coming to the rescue but it is Parliament. Let’s hope we can make some difference for you. Thank you very much for coming today. Oral evidence: Female genital mutilation, HC 1091 25