Oral evidence: Adult Literacy and Numeracy, HC 1073Tuesday 18 March 2014

Oral evidence, 18 March 2014.

Witnesses

Heather Akehurst, Chief Executive, Open Awards, Professor John Field, Chair, Scotland’s Learning Partnership, Mike Ellicock, Chief Executive, National Numeracy, Jonathan Douglas, Director, National Literacy Trust, and Genevieve Clarke, Adult Literacy Specialist, Reading Agency, gave evidence.

Chair

Good morning and thanks for agreeing to help us with our inquiry today. You may or may not have been present when the first panel started. I will just ask you to introduce yourselves for voice transcription purposes, starting with you Heather.

Heather Akehurst

Heather Akehurst from Open Awards.

Professor Field

John Field from Scotland’s Learning Partnership.

Mike Ellicock

I am Mike Ellicock. I am Chief Executive of National Numeracy, bringing in an unrelenting spotlight onto the importance of numeracy in the UK.

Jonathan Douglas

I am Jonathan Douglas. I am Director of the National Literacy Trust, which is a charity working with the one-in-six who have literacy problems, but focusing in particular on young people and families.

Genevieve Clarke

I am Genevieve Clarke, a programme manager from the Reading Agency. We are a national charity that runs a range of Reading for Pleasure programmes.

Chair

Thank you very much. Again, I am not sure if you were there at the start but I will repeat it: some of the questions will be general questions. Please do not feel that you have to speak on every question if your predecessor has already covered the points you have made. We will not think ill of you or the organisations you represent if you decide that you have nothing to add. To demonstrate this I am going to start off with a very general question, which is pitched to all of you: how would you define basic skills? If your predecessor has defined it adequately just say so. Who is going to lead on it?

Mike Ellicock

I would like to focus on numeracy of course and I assumed that you might ask the same question that you asked at the start about one in six with low literacy skills. I would like to emphasise the point on the numeracy side that the equivalent number is one in two, so the statistics that Brian used were wrong. It is one in two who are working at entry levels on numeracy and it is 78% of the population working below Level 2. One of the big things for us, in terms of defining basic skills and when we talk about literacy and numeracy, is, “Let’s look at those statistics and then address those issues and the particular issues that there are around the respective areas.” Numeracy means to be able to use quantitative information to make good decisions in everyday life. It is very much a life skill. From those statistics we can see that lots of people are not necessarily able to do that and some of the points Brian made about the system are interesting. We think that numeracy is hidden behind literacy. We think that we are measuring the wrong things in numeracy, so I passed around the Essentials of Numeracy for All around that. We think that when Brian was talking about the educational establishment, we need to look at the way in which the political system—

Chair

You are covering this very widely. I would not necessarily disagree with what you are saying but, at this point, can I just get a get your view—?

Mike Ellicock

A one line answer on numeracy is that it is using quantitative information to help people make good decisions in their everyday life.

Jonathan Douglas

Last year, we undertook a piece of research looking at the relative definitions of literacy and one of the keys things that came through is that the business community has a very different understanding about what literacy means to the academic and education community. As you are aware, the CBI registers about 32% of businesses feeling frustrated with the levels of school leavers’ literacy and 15% of employers giving remedial training. What we discovered was that that was a mismatch with the education community’s attainment levels. The themes that seem to be particularly underrated in terms of the education community’s work around literacy, but highly rated by the business community, are speech, language and communication skills and also digital literacy.

Chair

Others are nodding—have you anything to add or subtract?

Professor Field

We are a national organisation representing learners and providers in adult learning. The broad approach we take is that, while we absolutely understand the type of things Mike was talking about, first, we take a broad approach to literacies—multiple—and secondly a very strong focus on how people use them. The emphasis is on what might be called in the trade functionality.

Genevieve Clarke

It is also the perception of learners themselves about where they feel they are on that spectrum. One observation is, for instance, if you ask somebody whether they are a reader, very often they will say no because they will have a very fixed view of what a reader is. The work that we are all trying to do is actually engage people in a community of people who can call themselves readers, writers and learners. That is fundamental.

Paul Blomfield

I have a couple of specific questions for Mike. Firstly, to explore the relationship between literacy and numeracy, at a previous evidence session we were told by Libby Coleman that until you can read for meaning you cannot use a computer and you cannot start looking at maths. Would you agree?

Mike Ellicock

I am not a literacy expert, but if you look at pre-school children playing with shapes and objects, they are doing maths, so I do not necessarily buy that. One of the problems in terms of the way that we teach maths in this country is that we do move into the abstract way too early. We have this definition of maths as abstract stuff. A much better approach—and this is what we are learning from high performing jurisdictions—is to use concrete objects, which kids are already using, move into the pictorial representations and then go on into the abstract in a much more structured, scaffolded way. That is very important. That is what we are learning from places like Shanghai and Singapore.

Paul Blomfield

Is that how you think you will succeed where other attempts at improving numeracy have failed?

Mike Ellicock

That is one of the ways. There are a huge number of different aspects to this.

Paul Blomfield

You said in your written evidence that improving the quality and the supply of the adult numeracy workforce is a key role for Government and you urged it to give this greater attention.

Mike Ellicock

Yes.

Paul Blomfield

What more do you think the Government should be doing?

Mike Ellicock

Certainly, workforce development generally is very important. We agree with the continuation of maths to 18. That is appropriate and is what higher‑performing countries do. There is a big conflict going on within FE colleges around the functional skills and some of your previous witnesses addressed the functional skills versus GCSE. We think we need to change GCSE to address more of what we are talking about—this base of numeracy or everyday maths skills, which 78% of the population, it would appear from BIS assessments, do not have. There is a big shift that we think we need. Functional skills are a way forward and we think the Essentials that we have produced is a way forward. We launched the National Numeracy Challenge last week as a way of supporting those working in the system, but also those outside the system who want to improve their numeracy.

Paul Blomfield

Can I follow up on that? You have very helpfully circulated the stuff about the Challenge, which I have not had time to read yet in the last five minutes.

Mike Ellicock

You can have a go at it later.

Paul Blomfield

Could you just summarise for us the key points of the challenge – what it is all about?

Mike Ellicock

Yes, I would love to. We are a relatively new charity looking at the issue of numeracy in the UK. We have produced the Challenge because we want to be able to support those that want to improve their numeracy. We launched a YouGov survey last week. 31% of the population said they wanted to improve their numeracy levels. That rose to 40% amongst the unemployed, part time workers and those with children in the household. For those who rated their skills as poor, it was 50%. For lots of those people who have been through an education system and have not necessarily succeeded, they do not necessarily want to engage within further education immediately. We have created a web-based platform—we talk a lot about attitudes and attitudinal approaches, and trying to get rid of this idea that there is a maths gene—and then you can go and do a short assessment. It takes about 25 minutes; you get what level you are working at then get routed into a lot of learning resources; then you take the assessment again. The key thing is a distance-travelled measure so we are working with the behavioural insights team and the Nudge unit from the Cabinet Office to analyse that data and look at more effective ways of supporting learners.

Rebecca Harris

I have a quick question for Heather. In your submission you stated that the Government made basic skills a priority and provides training free for those under the age of 24, but funding for this is currently provided by the Skills Funding Agency and that presents a barrier immediately. Can you explain how that barrier works and what you would do in relation to funding for basic skills? How would you change it?

Heather Akehurst

I think funding for basic skills at any age should be free at the point of entry because people choose to address the gaps that they have at different times. They have different triggers to do that. That trigger might not come along until you are in your 40s and you have children who are in primary school moving up into secondary school. I am currently struggling with my son’s maths homework at the moment, so I can relate to that. It is about the way the funding is currently being moved. It has a very strong focus on getting people into employment and I do not think many people would argue with that. People are starting at different levels and if you are starting at entry level you have a much bigger journey. One of the things that Open Awards has a heritage of has been within unit-based qualifications so that people are taking smaller steps rather than having to commit to 12 months’ study. The funding is very much moving away from that. The funding is very much towards whole qualifications and so that, for instance, particularly with a lot of that we do, where we are providing qualifications within prisons, prisons are stopping to use it because they are unwilling, for lots of different reasons, to commit to funding a full qualification. Whereas before prisoners used to commit to individual units—as somebody moved around of the prison system and out of the prison system they could take those units with them—there is an increased barrier right at the start for people to allow people to take units that they are not getting funded for.

Caroline Dinenage

My question is for Genevieve. Could you talk us through a little bit about your Six Book Challenge and how it helps adults improve their literacy skills first of all?

Genevieve Clarke

Certainly. The context is that we are a charity that runs a whole range of programmes for different ages and abilities. That encompasses children as well. It is based on the premise that Reading for Pleasure really does have impact on attainment, whether it is children’s progression and, with adults, once you have engaged people in reading and they see the point of it they want to go on doing more and they improve their skills at the same time. We introduced a challenge. It is a very simple thing of being invited to read six things; they do not have to be books. We were talking about people who, in some cases, cannot manage the Quick Reads books, which are very short. It is reading material and they log it in a reading diary; they have to write a few words about it, so it involves writing as well. At the end they receive a certificate. In many cases, that is the first certificate they have ever had. It is motivation and reward along the way: 90% of those surveyed say that taking part gives them more confidence. We deliberate on a partnership model at a local level and with public libraries at the heart of it. Then libraries in other settings such as colleges and prison libraries so that people have access to free books. We have worked for a whole manner of different partners, some of whom you have heard from. We work with about 60% of public library services, who work with local adult learning/family learning/WEA etc. We work in well‑over 100 FE and sixth form colleges, around 100 prisons. I would also very much echo what Nina said there. It is the prison library working with education, but across other parts of the prison as well. Then we work in a lot of workplaces, working through trade union learning representatives, like you heard about from Unionlearn. That is working in places like logistics depots, supermarkets and transport companies. We also work with workforces in hospitals and the Army as well. That is just to give you a picture of the scale. We have been doing this for seven years now. 35,000 people registered last year and it is all about engaging them in the enjoyment of reading and developing a reading habit. That is what we are finding. The key point is that it supplements what everybody else is talking about because, with the best will in the world, if somebody is going to a class for two hours a week they cannot make that much progress. Studies that have looked into effective provision have said that people do not need to do self-study; they need to do active reading, and so you need to practice your skills. This is borne out. We have a lot of ESOL learners using it and we also have bilingual materials in Wales where adults learning Welsh are using the Six Book Challenge. It is completely obvious that if you are learning something new, you need to practise it and that is even better if you are enjoying how you are practising it.

Caroline Dinenage

How is it that you find the most success of galvanising people into action and attracting them to want to do this? One of the big issues that we have found as a study on this is that there are a lot of organisations who want to help people to learn to read but there is a stigma about admitting that you cannot read and looking for help. Often people have become very resourceful at hiding their literacy problems. What is your key? What is your hook? How do you get those readers to admit that they have a problem and want to move forward?

Genevieve Clarke

We coordinate it nationally, so we work with a lot of different agencies. I completely support the idea that you have to have voluntary agents working at the coalface, quite literally. That might be through places like housing or health where people are coming forward for other reasons. If those frontline workers are aware enough they will be spot the fact that there are real literacy problems there. Then it is the skill of people like librarians, for instance, who have got better at this and can find something that will really engage somebody. One of the easiest questions to ask somebody is, “What are your favourite things in life? What makes you feel happy?” You then begin to ease out that they love fishing so you ask, “Why not read a bit of a fishing magazine?” We take a really broad definition of reading and that includes digital as well. These days there are so many different ways for people to get into reading. There was an example of a 17-year-old with their feet up on the desk in a college library and the librarian showed him that he could download books on to his phone. Then he read six books for the Six Book Challenge and now has a completely different view of what a library can offer him.

Caroline Dinenage

Fantastic. What do you think the Government can do to help with this?

Genevieve Clarke

It is recognising that it is practice, as John said. Only 12% to 15% of pupils’ time is spent in school and this is far less for adult learners, so it has to seep into all parts of life. From our point of view, we would love recognition that reading for enjoyment is part of it and, certainly, that is a requirement now for schools. It would be lovely if that were clearly in this kind of policy and that it supplements the kind of more formal work everyone else is doing. You have to practise your skills to get better at them.

Ann McKechin

Could I ask a question to John? I wonder if you could briefly explain to the Committee the work of Scotland’s Learning Partnership and where you think it might differ from provision in the rest of the UK.

Professor Field

The partnership, as I have said, represents both learners and providers. It organises itself between two forums. One is a providers’ forum and one is a learners’ forum. That is how the work is structured. Broadly speaking, in Scotland there is a general acceptance, which is certainly accepted by the Scottish Government, of what in the trade is called the social practices model of literacies. That means that a lot of the work does have a slightly different shape. It is much less likely to be driven by formal qualifications and target‑setting than appears to be the case, or one hears to be the case south of the border. It is much more likely to take place in an embedded fashion. That is to say, literacy is provisionally embedded in a range of other learning activities, which may take place in the private sector, private training organisations, firms, workplaces, voluntary organisations of various kinds, sporting associations, or in formal education settings. The largest of the formal education settings will be the council and the colleges. In recent years, the colleges and the councils have had to reduce provision very significantly but they have operated historically on a partnership pattern. That is very much the approach that SLP exists to promote and advance.

Ann McKechin

Are literacy and numeracy levels different in Scotland from the rest of the UK?

Professor Field

That is a good question, to which I think some of us wish we knew the answer and some of us are very apparently glad that we do not know the answer. There was a separate survey of literacy in Scotland in 2009. It used different very strongly tweaked questions and was analysed differently from the OECD survey that England and Northern Ireland have just taken part in. The broad pattern in Scotland does not appear to be a million miles away from the rest of the UK and the Republic of Ireland, in that in the 1997 International Adult Literacy Survey the profile was very similar. Some people will emphasise the differences, but they are within the boundaries of error.

Ann McKechin

Despite the different educational systems—that is quite interesting.

Professor Field

It is extremely interesting. The same, incidentally, is true of school attainment in PISA. The differences are within the margins of error.

Ann McKechin

Thank you for that. Do you have any direct link with the Department for Work and Pensions? We have heard from our earlier panel today about referrals made from JSA claimants? I would be interested to know whether there was any particular link. Secondly, one of the other issues, which is linked to literacy and numeracy skills, that I know is apparent in my own city in Glasgow is a lack of digital skills. We have the lowest usage of digital in the whole of the United Kingdom by a significant factor. I just wondered to what extent your partnership was covering either of those issues.

Professor Field

On the digital skills, that clearly is a major issue that also has to do with the availability of infrastructure, of course. That is particularly if fast broadband is less available in certain parts of the UK. That is going to have a significant impact on the take up of digital skills. Most people have learnt digital skills through using them and making a lot of mistakes along the way. You can improve those and there are a number of projects with which SLP is associated that involve digital skills, but again, they are largely embedded within other activities. Things like “Give them a sporting chance”, for example, would include digital skills, but among many other skills. What was the first question?

Ann McKechin

The first question was about your links with the Department for Work and Pensions.

Professor Field

Yes, DWP—not really. The DWP largely liaises with Skills Development Scotland. While we do have links with Skills Development Scotland, they essentially plough a different furrow. We do have links with workplace learning through the trade unions, employers, the Chambers of Commerce, the network of family businesses in Scotland and so on. There are links with workplace learning, particularly with SMEs, but not so much with DWP. There is also the Scottish Prison Service. That has educational activity and has just this year introduced literacies into its assessment of new prisoners as they arrive. Within a few years, we will start seeing whether that has made a difference, but that is very new.

Chair

I have a few questions to finish off with and then I am going to come to Caroline to ask the final question. First of all, monitoring and evaluation: how does your organisation do that? We will start with you Heather, if that is okay.

Heather Akehurst

We provide the qualifications that other centres use, so probably our monitoring and evaluation is not going to be tremendously useful within this discussion because we do not deal with the end-learner. We provide the tools that other people use to deliver.

Professor Field

I have just a couple of things to say from a Scottish perspective. There is an evaluation tool that has been developed by Edinburgh City Council. It has been widely used across Scotland and is highly regarded. We also have HMIE, of course, which is a rather different relationship. I know you are seeing Ofsted later, but the relationship with HMIE tends to be rather different than the relationship that Ofsted has become in England. HMIE has produced self-assessment materials through Education Scotland for the community-learning sector. Those cover literacies, and learning and teaching.

Chair

We might want to follow this up.

Professor Field

I would be happy to do that.

Mike Ellicock

One of the important things about the National Numeracy Challenge and why we developed it is because there is a potential for a rich source of data. This is the data of the people who have gone through it since last Wednesday in terms of their breakdown. It is about the distance travelled that those learners make. On the point about funding qualifications, something like £300 million a year goes on adult numeracy qualifications, but adult numeracy has been getting worse. We think it is very important to reorient towards actual improvement in numeracy. That is what we hope to do through the challenge. We have lots of data there and we are looked to share that and work with the Behavioural Insights Team on that.

Jonathan Douglas

We have a four-point narrative. The first is around prioritisation of literacy. We know that an awful lot of frontline workers have strong awareness that their clients have people in housing associations and the criminal justice system with low levels of literacy, but very few do something about it. One of the key things we look for is that prioritisation. The second thing is shifts in attitudes. From the PIAAC data and so forth we know that people with low levels of literacy frequently do not look to improve those. If we can shift their attitudes that is important. The third thing is behaviours, exactly as Genevieve was saying. Public library membership, attitudes to reading and behaviour around that are important. Then the fourth thing is skills themselves. There is a narrative from awareness to skills.

Genevieve Clarke

As far as knowing whether our scheme works, as a charity we have to sell our materials. We do sell them and people are finding them valuable and we get feedback from them. I wanted to be able to tell your Committee member who is no longer here, Brian Binley, that one of the most successful places happens to be Northampton College, with 283 completers last year, and they have made it obligatory for students up to Level 2 English to take part in the challenge. Ofsted remarked on the growth in male students taking part in it. They have also said that they have had a 12% increase in their GCSE results and they feel Reading for Pleasure is part of that. We are receiving feedback from the people who run our scheme all of the time.

Chair

If he does not know it, we will bring it to his attention. I have a very quick question. If you could demand one thing from the Government to do to support you to make your work more effective, what would it be? Who wants to volunteer to open on this?

Heather Akehurst

It is about recognising that adult literacy is not something that you can look at on its own. There has to be joined-up thinking. There have to be different ways of people being able to identify that people may have an issue and be able to deal with it in lots of different ways. I do not think you can just sit and look at adult literacy.

Chair

If others have the same priority you can say so, but I will take each one individually. Professor?

Professor Field

It is what in the trade would be called the ladder of provision. That is, making sure that you have frontline activities that are engaging with people from the most disadvantaged and neglected parts of our society and moving them along. They then have to be able to go somewhere. That is the part of the problem, certainly within Scotland. The ladder of provision has been broken in many respects. That is a development since about 2007/08 that is starting to create difficulties in terms of a lifelong learning system. What happens to people who have gone through prison, taken a literacies programme and succeeded? What do they do when they leave? That is an issue whether they are ex-prisoners or elsewhere. The only other thing I would add is that it seems to me that for the group Mr Binley was rightly very concerned about—and I do not think anybody yet has fully answered his question; I would love to have a debate with him about that—there is a lot more in the data that could be looked at within the OECD data. England and Northern Ireland are real standout outliers. There is some evidence from the 2009 survey that Scotland, incidentally, might have a similar challenge with that age group. If that is the case, there really needs to be some bottoming out of those data. BIS is very well placed either to do it or to secure it, and to publish it.

Mike Ellicock

Linked to that, when we look at those young people, Government, employers and all of us involved in this need to do better job on three things. The first one is around value and the importance of numeracy. We have put this £20 billion figure out of the cost to the UK economy. The OECD said that good numeracy is the best protection against unemployment, low wages and poor health, so that is valuing it. We need to do a better job of convincing people that there is not a maths gene that they do not have. Everybody can do this stuff; everybody in the UK can become functionally numerate, but that is not where we are at the moment. The third part is that we need to do a better job of selling effort as the way to success. We think maths and numeracy is at the frontline of a battle we are having in the UK about whether success comes from talent or whether it comes effort. We believe very strongly that if you try at something—if you practise, as Genevieve said—if you read a lot you get better at reading; if you do some maths and numeracy, you get better at it. There is not a maths gene and we can all do this. Government and everyone else need to try and support that message.

Jonathan Douglas

I have two things. First, BIS holds a really important key, which has not been talked about yet this morning. That is the relationship between education and business, in terms of raising aspiration. We have established 25 local partnerships between businesses and schools and we are seeing fantastic results in terms of young people’s attainment because they have been given role models and support, which drive aspirations, which drive literacy.

Chair

If you have not already done so, could you send us some supplementary evidence?

Jonathan Douglas

I will, yes. The second thing is shifting the analysis so it is not simply about the supply of learning opportunities, but that we also look much more clearly at levels of demand. That means a deep understanding of engagement. Personal aspiration, particularly around parenthood, is a strong driver for people returning to formal learning. It is the use of initiatives, as Mike was saying, like social marketing to drive awareness of the opportunities the individuals have to improve their skills.

Genevieve Clarke

Key to all of this is remembering these words, “motivation” and “relevance”. As Heather has said, we cannot look at this in isolation. It has such an impact on people’s health and wellbeing. I was rather encouraged that in the BIS evidence it mentioned health and wellbeing in the second line or something. All of this is fundamental and it is really important that we work together to join up the links because we all have the will and the expertise to make it work. It is helping us to work together.

Chair

Before I bring in Caroline, there is just one final question from me. Does your organisation receive any funding either directly or indirectly from Government?

Genevieve Clarke

We have put our application into the Arts Council for our charity. At times we have had funding from BIS to promote Reading for Pleasure. Sadly there is none at the moment. We would love to be able to, but we have to sell our materials.

Jonathan Douglas

We have project funding from the Department for Education, but no core funding from Government and no funding from BIS.

Mike Ellicock

We have project funding from BIS for the Challenge that we have just recently received, which is fantastic, but no core funding from Government.

Professor Field

Our organisation receives a grant from the Scottish Government. Last year it was slightly over £39,000. The rest of the income comes from projects and sale of services.

Heather Akehurst

We have no core funding from Government-direct but our centres will receive funding through the Skills Funding Agency, Ofqual and QAA.

Chair

Thanks, that is very helpful. A final question from me is to Heather. This is really culled from your submission. You said that greater employer education programmes should target SMEs. Could you tell us a little bit more about that fairly shortly?

Heather Akehurst

My view is that if somebody leaves school having managed to get through the education system and you still have poor reading and numeracy skills, and you have managed to duck it and get into employment, then you have an employer who does not need reading or maths for you to do that job. There are lots of different examples out there. I think then to try and incentivise an employer to persuade them that they may need to give up some time—and I know the panel has heard some really good examples, particularly through Unionlearn, but to give up some time or provide the funding—is difficult for them to do. They tend to be smaller employers; there is less incentive; there is no Government financial incentive for them to do it, if they can get their jobs done without it.

Chair

The Government does provide help for Unionlearn.

Heather Akehurst

Yes, it does, but I am not sure how much that is getting down to SME-level. What I am talking about is, perhaps, Joe Bloggs, who has a garage; he employs five people. They do not particularly need to read; they do not need maths. How do we incentivise people like that to be picking up the issue? If you have been working five or six days a week, where is your incentive to then go and partake of an adult learning course, if you can get one that is still funded by your local authority?

Mike Ellicock

We created the challenge to try and reach out to SMEs and to individuals who want to improve their skills, but the bigger point is that jobs which do not need reading, writing or basic numeracy are disappearing. Those people need to get these skills. We, collectively, including the SME employers, need to get the message out that everybody needs this stuff.

Chair

I have a final question, possibly to Heather, but also to others. How do you get from this point to signposting somebody to an apprenticeship? Is there anything that you think that could be done to assist that process?

Heather Akehurst

There is a lot around apprenticeships at the moment and certainly schools are doing an increasing job of looking at it. That brings into question the quality of careers advice in schools sometimes.

Chair

The problem is of course that schools often fail the cohort that we have and they are unlikely to get to that point.

Heather Akehurst

Yes and, of course, apprenticeships are actively considering at the moment whether they are going to make GCSEs a requirement of doing an apprenticeship. That could wipe out a whole cohort of young people who are very well-served by apprenticeships at the moment. That is a big worry looking forward. I think that is where Local Enterprise Partnerships and Chambers of Commerce need to do a bit more, but it is very difficult to get to SMEs who are so busy just making their businesses run. I accept that.

Chair

It is part and parcel of the problem that we are well aware of.

Jonathan Douglas

With reference to access to apprenticeships, we are just about to launch a partnership with British Telecom for young people who have literacy levels that are currently barring them from access to apprenticeships. They will be identified through Job Centre Plus and volunteers from British Telecom will work with adult basic skills tutors over a two-month period to raise their literacy levels and finally to give access to the apprenticeship application activity for those young people. That kind of partnership approach between the third sector, Job Centre Plus and business, perhaps, holds an important key there.

Chair

That concludes our questions. Thank you very much. As I said to the others, please do feel free to send any further evidence. Indeed, we have asked you on one or two occasions to do so. Thank you. That is incredibly helpful and we will incorporate your observations into our recommendations to the Government. Thank you very much. Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses

Karen Adriaanse, HMI Specialist adviser, National Adviser for careers guidance and employability, Ofsted, Keith Smith, Executive Director, Skills Funding Agency, and Lesley Giles, Deputy Director, UK Commission of Employment and Skills, gave evidence.

Chair

Good morning and welcome. You may well have been sitting patiently there, so you will probably have heard my comments to the previous panels. Notwithstanding that, I will repeat them anyway. Some of our questions will be general questions for all of you to answer, but please do not feel that you need to repeat what somebody else has said. If I could just ask you to introduce yourselves, starting with you Karen?

Karen Adriaanse

Karen Adriaanse; I am an HMI from Ofsted and I am Ofsted’s Special Adviser for Improvement for Further Education and Skills.

Keith Smith

I am Keith Smith and I work in the Skills Funding Agency. Some of my responsibilities are leading on the issue of implementation and funding of the learning system.

Lesley Giles

My name is Lesley Giles and I am one of the deputy directors at the UK Commission for Employment and Skills. I have lead responsibility for our research and analytical programme there.

Chair

I will start a question that is to all. It costs an adult £165 per course for English and maths GCSEs. How do you think adults can afford to pay that?

Keith Smith

The position on funding is that all adults below that Level 2 have entitlement to free English and maths, so there are no tuition costs or charges that get levered through the funding system. We are very clear that for all of our key programmes, whether they be apprenticeships, traineeships or those funded by colleges in other classroom settings, English and maths are free at the point of access.

Chair

Are you saying unequivocally that it is effectively free up to GCSE?

Keith Smith

We fully fund all learners, of any age, who have not obtained a Level 2 English or maths and we provide full funding for every application regardless of their employment status, whether they are unemployed or employed. If they are assessed by the learning provider as not having the Level 2 standard, we provide full funding for those courses and qualifications.

Chair

We have heard differently, but we will explore the sources of that information and, obviously, you have given us this commitment today. We will make an assessment. If necessary we might come back to you.

Paul Blomfield

I wonder if I could ask a question to Karen arising from her written evidence. It highlighted the results of your inspections of foundation English and maths providers between 2012 and 2013. Could you just draw out for us the key findings from that?

Karen Adriaanse

Certainly. On inspection, we look to see the quality of learning and development of skills. We look at the quality of teaching and learning and we also see how well it is managed. Over the last 18 months or so, out of 83 inspections 42 were judged to be either “good” or “better”. That is a concern that we have had and certainly the Chief Inspector mentioned that in his report. That is in comparison to one of the better performing subjects, like engineering for example, where 70% of it is “good” or “better”. In the very best provision, leaders and managers take responsibility for the quality of English and maths in their institution across the board. They are committed to it; they have a strong strategy to be able to make sure that they understand what the need is and how well they are meeting the need, and take responsibility for the quality of teaching and learning. In particular, the very effective teachers have a very good understanding of language and skills and make sure that they know where the starting point is for their learners. In maths, it is not only getting the answer right, which a lot of learners think it is; it is really making sure that the teachers work with their students to ensure they are not only relying on their memory to be able to carry something out, but that they understand the concepts so they can do it for life. That is why our inspections show that when the learning is in context—which the previous witnesses have said—it is much more beneficial to them because they can reinforce it in their everyday lives. We do have some excellent examples of purposeful, stimulating and inspirational teaching and learning that works. On the other hand, where the learning is dull and demotivates, it does not help anybody at all and it is not a good use of public funds either.

Paul Blomfield

Thanks very much and obviously we share your concerns, hence this inquiry. I wonder whether you could develop it a little bit more. You talked about leadership and other things. What do you think needs to change and, in particular, what more could the Government be doing to make that change happen?

Karen Adriaanse

There are various levels that the Government need to do. Something that the previous witnesses talked about was a change in culture and raising aspirations where possible, because where learning does not work—and certainly in schools where it does not work—is where teachers have low expectations, and where they are not checking who is falling behind and the leaders are not taking responsibility. Where you can change the culture and one of the things Government could do—and certainly started to do in the past—is to raise the profile nationally of English and maths across the board. I think talking about basic skills, literacy and numeracy, is not necessarily helpful. Talking about English and maths will almost instantly raise the profile. There needs to be things to diminish the stigma. It is how it is promoted through everyday lives, whether it is received in things like soap operas or films so people understand that this is a problem that everybody has, and also then celebrating when it makes a difference. That brings me to the teaching. There still is not a strong culture in this country that teaching English and maths to adults who have not been able to succeed in the past is a difficult thing to do, and it needs to be recognised as a high professional career with post‑graduate qualifications and support to ensure they really have the expertise to motivate them. The other thing is, certainly on GCSE levels that again was talked about in the past—and I know the Government are revising the GCSE qualifications in English and Mathematics—is that is important that this is not seen as only a qualification for school children; it is an adult qualification. There needs to be flexibility and functionality—flexibility in the assessment procedures and functionality in the content. Finally, I would just say family learning. I know that was mentioned in the past and it has been very successful. It helps the children as well so there is a win-win situation there.

Mike Crockart

Your written evidence stated that the take up of English and maths is especially low in prisons compared with the level of need assessed at induction. That is certainly borne out by the evidence we have already heard this morning from the Prisoners Education Trust. How do you think that that can be tackled?

Karen Adriaanse

One of the main issues is the separation of the education and training provision and the prison system. There is not currently clear accountability. The governors of a prison do not currently have clear accountability for the quality of the education, the teaching the literacy and numeracy, or the English and maths provision in a prison. We would expect that the governors would know what the need is, would know how well they are meeting the needs and support that. There needs to be much greater accountability for governors, particularly as that should surely be part of their overall agenda for reducing reoffending. We know that if people have better skills in English and maths they are more employable. We also know that if people get jobs as they come out of prison they are less likely to reoffend. That is certainly one thing that we would consider. I support what the previous people have said, particularly I think by minimising the amount of discrete English and maths that takes place in the classroom and by taking it out into all aspects of the prison it is much more effective. You are not only relying on how to learn rules of where an apostrophe is or how to work out percentages, you are then being able to understand the purpose of maths. That is often why people fail in the past: they do not know why they are doing it. For example, in schools, children will go, “Why do we do Pythagoras’ Theorem?” but when you are in a construction workshop, you need to know Pythagoras so you can measure the gable end of the building so you know how many bricks and how much wood you need. Finally, I know that Matthew Coffey, the director in Ofsted’s directive for FE and skills, has criticised the judiciary for not identifying English and maths as a need as part of a sentence. That would be another way of ensuring it is more systemic that people are identified if they have a need and that need is then supported.

Mike Crockart

Which is the most important one there? Is it giving someone responsibility—the governor—first and making sure that the quality is sufficient?

Karen Adriaanse

Absolutely, as part of their overall goal for reducing reoffending. Particularly now that we have the resettlement prisons coming in and that is very much aimed at the whole system going in from a remand prison, going through a training prison and then to a resettlement to make sure that they have the skills they need to leave prison, get into a job and turn their lives around. So governors’ accountability would be number one.

Mike Crockart

You seem to making the case that it is about professionals delivering this and we should be trying to make sure there is continuing professional development in teachers and prisons, so that is the way it is going to be delivered. We have also heard evidence that that is a barrier because it stops innovation and new charities, for example, being able to come in and deliver training in different ways. Is there a barrier there?

Karen Adriaanse

There is very much room for both. It all depends on the individual learners. Some will benefit. There are systems, and I know the Select Committee has heard about two systems now, where it is based on volunteers. That can really be invaluable for starting people. Peer support, which I know people have already promoted, can be absolutely invaluable as a start and then it may be that to develop those initial skills and build on those skills, they may need the professional support to learn the skills that employers need and be in charge of their own learning. On the other hand, there may be some learners who need more professional support first and then will need mentors or volunteers to help them reinforce or maintain their skills in the future.

Mike Crockart

I think we have probably already covered this in talking about the need to recognise those delivering this sort of quality training is a specialist job. Is there a need for a greater emphasis on career structure for people delivering that type of training?

Karen Adriaanse

There used to be. I am now going back to the early 1990s when the qualification stopped. There used to be a post-graduate qualification that was very demanding in assessment. There was one for English and one for maths and it made sure that the assessment made sure they understood the specific issues; they did research and there was quite an intensive programme of observed training and learning to really make sure they had the expertise that they need. That has disappeared at the moment and that is where I feel—we have found this in inspection—that there is not that in-depth understanding of conceptual language to be able to analyse why it is that somebody who is 29 cannot read and write properly. Why is it that they can write this word, but not the other? What support do they need? Where we find teaching tends to fail is where teachers are teaching the learners something in the way they use themselves as adults. If I taught to you to do percentages my way, it might not be right for you. By having the full and in-depth understanding of what maths and English are, you have a greater repertoire of different methods and strategies for teaching. You are likely to help the learners support themselves, because that is what we are looking for. I would not want to teach anybody to spell or to read. What I want to do is to help them understand how they do it and give them support so they, in the future and the rest of their lives, can teach themselves to spell and to read.

Nadhim Zahawi

Keith, the written evidence from Open Awards states that the Government made basic skills a priority and, indeed, provides training free to those under the age of 24. Funding for this is currently provided by the Skills Funding Agency and this presents barriers almost immediately. How do you react to that assertion?

Keith Smith

I would be interested to know what the barriers are that they are citing. The position in terms of the funding for 19 to 24 year olds is the same for all ages. We fund all adult further education in the same way, so there are no differences either structurally or in any accountability way that would create those barriers. The situation is very much, as you have heard, that we rely on really high-performing and high-quality training providers and colleges to make the right assessments and to have rigour in that initial assessment, so that we can be confident that the funding going through institutions down to learners is best-placed. As I said earlier, our funding commitment is that we fully fund the tuition costs for every English and maths qualification for those that providers assess are below that level. Over the last two years, since 2012, we have doubled the funding level that was going in for English and maths. That was partly in recognition as we moved away from the stepping-stone qualifications, from key skills into functional skills. We are now doubling the investment at a qualification level. We are encouraging the system to use that money wisely, to do that on the back of robust assessment so that individuals can progress through functional skills to a full GCSE over time.

Chair

I think there is some informal advice going on here. I will bring in Caroline.

Caroline Dinenage

The issue is that they feel that if people are homeless, vulnerable or have substance-abuse problems, they will not engage in formal teaching methods through a formal organisation, particularly people who have had a bad experience of formal education providers when they were school. If school was a bad experience for them first time round, wild horses are not going to drag them back through the doors of formal education. The criticism is that the funding needs to be a little more flexible. It needs to be provided through voluntary organisations, and have more informal learning organisations that people feel more comfortable accessing. That is the criticism being levelled. I would like to know your thoughts on whether there could be more flexibility about how the funding is delivered to access those people who a) do not want to admit they have a problem, c) do not want to address that problem and c) are petrified of doing any of it through the formal education providers. Secondly, you talk about qualifications a lot and I do not know whether there is too much emphasis on the qualifications rather than skills, learning and getting people to achieve what they need to raise their aspirations, self-respect, self-confidence and allow them to access more opportunities in life, which is what this is really all about. This is about letting people fulfil their abilities rather than necessarily having a bit of paper with a qualification on it.

Chair

Just before you answer that very full question—we could have had a seminar while you were giving that one. Could I just say that some of the members have left? You may not be aware, since they introduced the so called family-friendly hours in the House of Commons, our session overlaps with Parliamentary Questions and some members will have questions and have to leave. Accept my apologies, but it is the way business is organised in this place. I will say no more. Now feel free to answer Caroline’s question.

Caroline Dinenage

I am sorry. I just feel I have to make up for Brian Binley not being here.

Keith Smith

I will try and do the question justice. In terms of the two points you raised around access and qualifications, first: access is critical. If the provision is not there, then with all the work that happens to stimulate that demand, if there is no access to that demand, then obviously that is a key problem. The current position is that we fund employer funding to around 1,000 providers, colleges and employers. There are a further 2,000 institutions that they work with so currently there are around 3,000 or so access points for people wanting to do FE programmes. Alongside the main further education budgets, we have a community learning budget, which is deployed through community learning partnerships. All of those things have to come together locally to provide coherent structures for provision to be offered and for the right access points. It is absolutely fair to say that charitable organisations do find it difficult to hold direct accountability because of the requirements on them, but that is different from saying that charity and voluntary organisations are not part of the FE skills system, because they absolutely are. I am happy to send some information to you about how the voluntary and community sector are actively participating in the supply of skills at the present time. The second point was around the emphasis on qualifications. What is important when you are putting investment into such an important area is that we need to be clear about the standards we expect to be achieved. Qualifications are a measure of that, so it is vitally important that the qualifications people study are the right ones. That has very much been the discussion over the last couple of years. That was certainly the debate around all the investment that went into adult literacy and numeracy; pre-functional skills were not making people progress. Therefore, the qualifications were made more rigorous through functional skills. That is obviously being looked at again as part of the GCSE reforms. We are clear about making sure we achieve the right outcome for the investment of the funding. It is absolutely right and proper that we do have that. The other thing I should mention though is that around 43% of adults doing English and maths are doing other things as well. Almost half of those doing English and maths are doing wider study programmes. It is not true that they will come into the system and just do that and go through a qualification machine. They will actually come in, do a broad package of learning and some of that is about supporting and contextualising the main English and maths qualifications. To support that, we provide extra funding for disadvantaged students and extra funding for where learners have additional learning supports and learning needs. So, in addition to fully funding the qualification, we provide that wrap-around support, but it is for providers and colleges to determine how best to employ that package of funding. We provide them the facility to be able to do that. The actual decision on what is needed and invested locally is for providers and colleges to make.

Chair

I might come back to you on one or two angles but I know Nadhim, having had the benefit of Jo’s research—

Nadhim Zahawi

You have touched upon it already, Keith. You have 3,000 access points, or 3,000 to come up on stream in total. One of the barriers that was highlighted was that previously—and we have moved away from that—it was local authorities, through grants, who were able to provide that provision. I would like you to just address or compare and contrast how that has changed. Is it really a barrier? Obviously, now it is only agencies that are awarded funding by the Skills Funding Agency and the second barrier they were highlighting is that it is only awarded to people under the age of 24. Could you address those two issues it would be very useful for the Committee.

Keith Smith

If I start with the latter one first. It is not the case that funding stops at 24. Funding, as I said, for English and maths for an adult of any age is supportable. On the first question around the changes, it is fair to say, going back to the late 1980s when colleges were managed under local authorities, colleges were then corporated; they were set free to work as independent institutions. That has been very much the case over the last 20 years or so. We have seen many more private training organisations, particularly on the back of apprenticeships, come into the delivery space. As we have consolidated more of an emphasis of English and maths into apprenticeships that has begun to get traction as well. In terms of local authorities, from a funding point of view, we currently fund directly or indirectly all local authorities. From memory—but I am happy to confirm this in writing—around £150 million of funding goes through local authorities for FE skills. There is additional funding that they control around the community learning budgets. Of course, what is also important is, as part of the Local Enterprise Partnerships work and how they dovetail with local authorities, they will now have control over £1 billion-plus funding for European Social Fund. I do not think that has been mentioned to date, but in addition to the direct Government contributions to English and maths, the European Social Fund provides another important line of investment into the system to support English and maths learners. From this point forward, LEPs will have complete control and authority over that European Social Fund and how that is best deployed. We are trying to encourage LEPs through their strategic planning and to be focusing on these types of skills needs, particularly where they present barriers to employment.

Nadhim Zahawi

Lesley, from your research, can you describe the different challenges surrounding the provision of basic literacy and numeracy skills?

Lesley Giles

The first element about the challenge is the scale of the challenge. There is some really good labour market intelligence, which I know the Committee has already heard about it in terms of some of the international adult surveys and so on that show that whilst across the economy our people with high skills are as good as countries, we have a long tail of adults with low skills. Basic skills—numeracy and literacy—are clearly a part of that, so that is an element of the challenge. It is people who are adults—so they have come out of the education system; it is a legacy problem—but also young people coming through. There are questions around their skill levels as well relative to other countries and whether they are sufficiently improving. That is a dimension of it. From the Commission’s point of view, we are an industry-led agency so we are representing the needs of business. Therefore, we have our own dedicated business intelligence which we collect from a series of employer surveys. Our Employer Skills Survey, for example, is a survey of 90,000 businesses so that we can get in to understanding these skills issues at a local level and contribute to some of the debates we have just been having. The survey shows that whilst we start to see positive green shoots in the economy and growth and recruitment activities increasing, we are also seeing that the proportion of skill shortages are increasing as well. The increase in the last couple of years has been by 60% and a significant proportion of those skill shortages are related to basic skills issues. That is when employers are looking to the external labour market. However, we also find, unsurprisingly, given some of the results from the international survey, employers are reporting significant levels of deficiencies amongst their existing workforce; about a quarter of skills gaps are in this area as well. Another dimension to this is that we have evidence that whilst employers are making significant investments in some of the skills of their people to try to tackle some of these issues, perhaps there is a certain degree of dampening down of their expectations as well. A significant proportion of businesses are operating what we call a “low skill equilibrium” where they are accepting the scale of the skill deficiency because it is quite a significant issue to overcome. Those are some of the dimensions in terms of the challenge. What can be done about it? Drawing a line under some of the comments you have already heard, the Commission feels that the way we have to think about these things is how basic skills provision sits within a broader career pathway or vocational pathway for people. Employers have a key role to work with Government to strengthen some of those pathways and to make sure that basic skills provision is not something that just happens in isolation in its own right; it leads on to something else. An individual can, therefore, see an end-to-end in terms of lifelong learning, how they progress from schools through colleges, through universities and work‑based learning. The Commission, in particular, is doing a lot of work with employers to try to make sure that the work‑based learning aspect is emphasised and this picks up some of the things that the other contributors were speaking about earlier. By doing that, you can then make sure that when basic skills solutions are selected by employers, they are context‑specific, so you are not just then putting somebody through a training course in isolation; they can see the benefit of the applied basic skills that they are developing to that particular context.

Chair

Just before I move on to the next question, can I come back to Keith. The evidence that we had for the assertion that there was no funding for those over 24 came from the organisation, Open Awards. You are saying that, quite categorically, there is. Let me rephrase what I have said: is not free for over 24‑year‑olds. Have you any idea if this is, in fact, correct and, if so, how this shall we say confusion has arisen?

Keith Smith

They may be confusing that with a statutory entitlement for all those people below a Level 2 to receive full funding to the age of 24. The English and maths commitment is separate to that. Obviously, English and maths is one dimension of someone reaching a broader Level 2 standard. If you gain your English and maths qualifications and you achieve two GCSEs in both, then you have your English and maths GCSEs, but it does not give you the standard that you would expect a broader Level 2 to have, which is the equivalent of five GCSEs A* to C. The funding entitlement for up to 24 says that there is free access to learning that gives you the equivalent of the five GCSEs. In addition to that, for adults of any age, if they are below the standard for English and maths we provide full funding for those qualifications. I think they are getting confused between English and maths and the specific commitment to fund people up to the age of 24 for the wider standard of a Level 2.

Chair

I have to say it is confusing and, if it is confusing to us, it may well be confusing to not just the general public, but any other organisation. What do you think could be done to make it rather simpler and clearer to people?

Keith Smith

I think it is fairly simple in the fact that English and maths is fully funded regardless of age. I am not sure how we can be much clearer about that.

Chair

Are you saying that the headline should be that English and maths up to GCSE standard is fully funded for post‑24‑year‑olds?

Keith Smith

Absolutely.

Chair

Okay. Well, there is possibly a marketing message that needs to go out, but we will have a look at that. There are just one or two things that I would like to pick up from this point. Earlier on, I think it was you, Keith, talked about the different sources of funding for organisations. Is there anything over and above that that could be done to help employers support adult learners in acquiring these basic skills?

Keith Smith

That is a very difficult question. As much as we have touched upon, we have to get a few things really clear. The first is what we think the right standards are for an English and maths learner. Your challenge back to me is the right one: we have to try to make sure all employers of different sizes and businesses understand what sort of English and maths issues there might be and how they can best engage in that. As Lesley said, it is difficult, because many businesses do not currently necessarily engage with the system or do not necessarily know how to engage with the system. It is important around awareness and information. One of the key thrusts that are helping us to do that is apprenticeships, because as we start to drive the message into businesses of all sizes what benefits an apprenticeship brings, we are saying English and maths is a pivotal part of that offer and that sort of support. One of the things we can do and we are looking at is, as we reform apprenticeships to be owned more by employers and that they can set the proper standards of what an apprentice is, that English and maths is placed at the heart of that. That is a key strategy for getting employers, particularly SMEs, in tune with what English and maths is required. The second bit, and the key part that currently we are all challenging ourselves over, is how we get learning provision in a way that is going to support a business to also do the day job. Many businesses, particularly small businesses, cannot afford to have people away from the workplace for days on end whilst they go into the classroom. Therefore, we are doing some work to look at how current qualifications or the current offer can be developed to be more online, how we can use new technology to try to take this learning directly into the workplace. All those things feel really important areas to try to help businesses. Obviously, they all recognise the issues and barriers that people with low English and maths bring, but it is about then providing proper solutions to go to those businesses, which say there is a package, there is an arrangement and access for people to be able to study that that does not mean they will necessarily be worrying about lost time in productivity and those other things, because people are having to go to learning providers that are two or three miles down the road. It is about how we take learning to them.

Chair

There are some examples of trade associations engaging in this particular agenda and that may well be a way forward. I understand what you are saying.

Keith Smith

And Unionlearn, of course.

Chair

Yes, Unionlearn. I was going to comment that the problems you have outlined are very similar to those we hear about introducing apprenticeships, but you have covered that. However, I think there is a feeling amongst a lot of small businesses that they are being asked to do something that the education system should do, so effectively they have to devote time and money to something that they have already paid their taxes to get done. What do you think the answer is to that dilemma?

Keith Smith

The obvious answer is to try to ensure more school leavers do not have those issues. From our point of view, we would want to talk to employers and businesses and say, “Regardless of the circumstances that have led that individual to be where they are, we think it is vitally important and provides massive benefits to the business if we can work in a proper partnership to invest in the skills of every adult, of any age, because too many, as we have talked about, do not have that basic level of English and maths”. If businesses make that criticism, in some cases it may be a fair one, but our job is to focus on the solutions of how we can support those adults rather than saying why the education system did not do that at an earlier point. In adult education, we are focusing on providing the right structures and the right offer. However, what is also important is the reforms that are being made, particularly on the pre‑19 side, to focus on English and maths in the study programmes and to make it a really core part of the offer that young people are given is obviously important around the flow of young people leaving school. However, we have to take that challenge to all those adults who are in the workforce now and focus on the solutions, not necessarily focusing on the issues or reasons why they have ended up where they are.

Chair

Yes. Looking at it slightly broader, how do you think providers of adult literacy and numeracy in schools should be rewarded and how do you think they should be held to account?

Keith Smith

There are lots of dimensions to that. Clearly, my aspect to this is around the funding systems and the funding incentives. As I have said, we doubled the funding level for English and maths learners and we think that does two things: it recognises the robustness of the new qualifications; it also recognises the importance that we are placing on providers investing properly in that area of activity. It has been vitally important that we have made more robust the requirements around initial assessment. In my view, one of the areas where adults were not progressing was because a stretching or rigorous assessment was not done at entry and that was not then repeated when the learner achieved a particular qualification. That often led to, when it was measured, that there was not a distance travelled made. Therefore, we have done more to regulate and prescribe to all providers and colleges in receipt of the funding what they should be doing in relation to that assessment and that support over time. What is also important is that we continue to raise the level, particularly around and similar to your point about the offender learning, but how we get governing bodies of colleges and boards of private providers to look at the information and evidence about their own performance in English and maths. It is fair to say that not all providers are particularly great at systematically collecting that assessment information and seeing how that has been progressed and how those students have developed over time. Therefore, once we can create the right incentives for funding, funding is not necessarily the only answer. It has to be looked at in terms of how funding can provide, as I said, the right level of support so that funding follows the learner, as it does at the moment, we provide incentives around paying some on achievement, so we do not pay for everything unless the student does achieve, then we are relying on other mechanisms to deal with the quality of people going through study programmes.

Chair

Do you think some of these problems could be addressed through an employer ownership approach?

Keith Smith

Employer ownership is critical, going to your point earlier, to get employers to engage with the system and start to own, drive and shape the solutions. If we are being fair to many businesses, the skills system has not always been perhaps the most responsive to looking at the way provision is delivered to employers. Employer ownership starts to drive and challenge that and, as I said before, starts to drive through new ways that businesses can engage with learning programmes and activity. It is not the only solution or the whole solution, because there has to be a strong partnership between employers trying to make sure that they can drive through their workforce the priority for English and maths and wider skills outside of those subjects, but obviously many employers will always rely on a training organisation or college to support them in the delivery of the skills that their workforce needs.

Caroline Dinenage

Sorry Keith, it is you again. Do you have the total cost of provision for adult literacy and numeracy in 2012/2013?

Keith Smith

We funded around £350 million in 2012/2013 and that is broadly going into learners studying English and maths. As I said, that is a growing proportion of the total adult skills budget that is going through the system. It is around that sort of level at the moment.

Caroline Dinenage

Do you know what proportion of that funding goes to achieving Level 1 and 2 qualifications compared to the entry‑level qualification?

Keith Smith

I have those figures, but I will put them to you in writing if that is okay.

Caroline Dinenage

That would be helpful; thank you very much. Do you scope actual and potential demand for English and maths skills for benefit claimants? Do you scope the potential demand for English and maths skills provision for benefit claimants? When people go to claim benefits do you, in some way, scope their need and the provision for them as well?

Keith Smith

Absolutely. The work that we have done linked to the Work Programme, but also with Jobcentre Plus around looking at the issue that I think has failed many unemployed people accessing the skills provision that they have needed comes back to that assessment. We have had some issues that funding is often cited as a barrier, but in fact it is that the individuals are not being assessed at the right time, in a timely manner, to access the necessary provision. Regarding unemployed people, therefore, we have stronger and developing by the day links between colleges, particularly, and Jobcentre Plus. We have new commitments working with Jobcentre Plus for them to make referrals and, in some cases, mandatory referrals to English and maths provision where the Jobcentre identifies those qualifications as the key thing that is going to help those people into jobs. What we also continue to do around the offer for the unemployed is we provide wider flexibilities. We talked about units and the issue of why do we only fund four qualifications. For an unemployed person the system does fund units, because we recognise for unemployed people getting into jobs more flexibility is needed to create a package of activity that is going to get that unemployed person into a job. Therefore, there are wider flexibilities that are tailored for the unemployed.

Caroline Dinenage

It sounds like you are doing an awful lot, but do you think there is any way the Skills Funding Agency could take a more proactive and outreach‑focused approach to adult literacy and numeracy?

Keith Smith

That is a question we need to explore across the Department more broadly and across Government. The Skills Funding Agency’s job is to make sure the funding systems and the access to funding is right, proper, well administered and those types of things. We do not have a wider PR/communications function in relation to those sorts of things. However, what we do do through the National Apprenticeship Service and through the Careers Service is we provide those access points into those services where we promote clearly the requirements, the need and the benefits, etc, around English and maths. However, in answer to your question, as the previous group gave evidence to you, there needs to be a cross‑Government view about how we communicate and talk to individuals about English and maths, because your point earlier is very important. My experience is many adults see it as an embarrassment to come out and talk about their needs, because basic skills feels like “I cannot do the most basic of things”, so there is a lot still to be done around how we message and communicate those things.

Chair

That concludes our questioning. Thank you very much for your contribution. We have asked you to provide some supplementary evidence. I am sorry I cannot take questions from the audience. However, any individual can submit supplementary evidence, so if you have a contribution to make you can submit it to us. I am sure the staff will give you the address for where to send it. Oral evidence: Adult Literacy and Numeracy, HC 1073-ii 2