Oral evidence: Reform of the Police Federation, HC 11631 April 2014

Oral evidence, 1 April 2014.

Witnesses

John Tully, Metropolitan Police Federation, and Ian Edwards, West Midlands Police Federation, gave evidence.

Chair

Thank you very much for giving evidence to this Committee. Mr Tully, you have been here before on another occasion. I am not sure whether, Mr Edwards, you have been here.

Ian Edwards

No, I have not.

Chair

Thank you for coming. The context of this session is to look at the Police Federation and to produce a report on the back of the Normington report. The reason why we have asked you to come in, obviously, Mr Tully, you represent the Met with its huge size in respect of the Federation; Mr Edwards, you represent an out of London force. We are keen to know processes, not to point fingers or blame, but just to know processes to make it easier for us to understand. I want to start with financial issues, and other colleagues will come in, and then we will go on to representation. I am afraid I have to leave before the session is concluded. Mr Reckless will take the chair when I go. I am sorry about that; it has run on slightly longer than we anticipated and I am grateful to you for your forbearance. If I could start with you, Mr Edwards, you have as the chairman of the West Midlands Police Federation a No. 2 account, an account where your members’ subscriptions go into, is that correct?

Ian Edwards

No, we do not.

Chair

You do not. The West Midlands Police have no control over any financial matters?

Ian Edwards

West Midlands Police do not, no. The Federation do. All our money goes—

Chair

The Federation?

Ian Edwards

Yes, sorry.

Chair

You are here as the Federation, not as the police?

Ian Edwards

Yes, absolutely. All our money goes into what—

Chair

My apologies, the Federation.

Ian Edwards

That is okay. All our money goes into one account, from member services, Federation subscriptions, and that also includes the chief constable’s charity account. We run a chief constable’s charity.

Chair

You as chairman are one of the signatories of this Federation account of the West Midlands?

Ian Edwards

Yes, I am.

Chair

How much would you have in there?

Ian Edwards

I can give you the exact figures if you bear with me. The net assets as of 2013, the buildings and equipment—we have a share of the building that we share with the credit union and healthcare—is £728,000 in value. That is the building, computers and everything contained in with the building. In our investment account we have £1.395 million, which is invested with companies who look after our money. Cash £420,000; working capital £94,000, which I think is around £2.6 million in net assets.

Chair

£2.6 million?

Ian Edwards

Around that.

Chair

Were you surprised when you discovered that those sitting centrally in Leatherhead did not know how much money you had in your account? When we took evidence from Steve Williams it seems that you are not under an obligation to disclose that information to the Federation because you are a branch.

Ian Edwards

Yes, absolutely. Our accounts are audited every year. The F45 is completed. A copy does go to the chief and we send a copy to headquarters at Leatherhead. So, yes, I was surprised. Our accounts are done openly. They are transparent. There is nothing hidden there.

Chair

Does that go for other branches?

Ian Edwards

I can’t comment for other branches.

Chair

You can’t, but you can tell us that for the West Midlands?

Ian Edwards

I know my house is in order.

Chair

Indeed. Mr Tully, 27 years of service in the Metropolitan Police; you have obviously been one of the key figures in London. Would you like to tell us how much money you have in your account?

John Tully

Yes, Chairman, and I would just like to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and explain what the actual position is rather than some of the media hype that we have heard recently. The accumulated fund of the Metropolitan Police Federation currently sits at £4,671,013.

Chair

Were you surprised again when reports were made that those sitting centrally in the Police Federation really did not know how much money was in these No. 2 accounts?

John Tully

I think it is very important to differentiate between where we sit and where some of my colleague chairs sit around the country. There are 43 independent federations as laid down in statute. The Metropolitan Police Federation does not have a No. 2 account. Like my colleague Ian Edwards from West Mids, everything is audited. We have independent trustees who ensure that all the fund rules are followed and our policies are kept to. We publish our accounts annually to our membership. I was surprised to hear that other parts of the Federation were less transparent than we are.

Chair

You accept some of the criticism? It may well be we picked the two best, if you like, to come and give evidence today, but there are other branches that do not provide the kind of transparency of information that everyone would like to see in any organisation, especially one relating to the police.

John Tully

Clearly, I cannot speak directly for the other federations you mention, but it is clear, if you believe what has been reported, that there are some federations who do have No. 2 accounts and have not disclosed that information.

Chair

Do you know which ones or do you do not know?

John Tully

I do not.

Chair

I was talking to one of the police officers on duty here and I said that you were coming in today. I asked about his subscriptions, where they went to, and he said obviously he had to pay these subscriptions but he did not know what the money was spent on. Now, it could well be the usual thing when you hand somebody a leaflet and you think they know what you are saying but actually they just put it away somewhere. Do you think that you have done enough in both your local branches to ensure that your local officers know exactly what happens to the money that they give to you?

Ian Edwards

No, I don’t, and I think it is very important that we are transparent and accountable. I think that is down to communication. We do need to communicate with our members and say, “You pay your £20.58 monthly. You need to know where your money is going”. We have just put on our website a breakdown, a narrative of our accounts, because a lot of people looking at our accounts would not understand where the money goes. It is important to break it down so people do know where their money is spent locally and nationally.

Chair

As far, Mr Tully, as additional member services are concerned, such as insurance, why have so many branches decided to sign up to those additional services?

John Tully

As I said earlier, I am here to speak for the Metropolitan Police Federation.

Chair

Yes, of course, absolutely.

John Tully

I cannot speak for the administrative affairs of other federations. Certainly, the Met Federation is absolutely upfront and clear with all of its members. I for some time before I was chair was the representative for recruits in training at Hendon or the Met’s training school. One of my responsibilities was to clearly define how much the voluntary subscription was going to cost each individual. As to the other subscription services that we provide, such as a group insurance scheme and travel insurance and so on, they are all very clearly defined in leaflets that are given and explained in a question and answer session. It is not all members that sign up. The Police Act says that everyone who is attested as a constable is automatically a member of the Police Federation, but to access the services we provide you have to be a voluntary subscribing member. Currently, we have in the region of 95% to 96% coverage within the Met. I have now left that responsibility with recruits, but our constables branch within the Met has taken over that responsibility. They report to me that 99% of new recruits currently are signing up for all of the services that we provide.

Chair

Mr Edwards, do you know who your members are? One of the things that surprised this Committee when we heard from Steve Williams was that he did not have a list of all the members of the Federation. Do you have a database of all your members?

Ian Edwards

No, we don’t.

Chair

You don’t either?

Ian Edwards

No, we do not. We have access to our force email accounts and to get messages to our members we rely on our local reps. If we need to get a message out, we will say to our local reps, who have Federation email accounts, “This is what we need to get out to the members” and they will obviously use the force email to get that message out. We do not have a database.

Chair

Mr Tully, that sounds very odd, doesn’t it? You take money from people, obviously, because they pay their subscriptions, but you have no idea who your members are. Do you know who all your members are?

John Tully

It would be untrue for me to say that I knew exactly who every member was, but I would also say that I doubt whether the commissioner could tell you how many people he had and exactly where they were. We have recently just gone through a process of elections and that was down to my officers’ responsibility. In contacting local human resources departments, it became apparent to me that they did not know who they had, how many people they had and where they were. I accept there is a criticism that the Federation does not have that information, but we rely upon the Chief Officer of Police to give us that information. It is a matter of choice from the membership whether they give us independent email addresses or other contact details.

Chair

Sure, but how can they access the services if you do not know who the members are?

John Tully

Well, they complete a form and they submit it and we—

Chair

You just accept it?

John Tully

We have a database of who pays a subscription and what services they have signed up to.

Chair

This is pretty unsatisfactory, isn’t it? We are accepting money from people. We do not know who they are. We try to get messages out. It depends very much on goodwill and the ability to get your chief constables—the Met in your case, Mr Tully—and others to do this.

Ian Edwards

I think there is just a slight breakdown there; I might have misled you slightly. We know who the members are, but we do not have a way of contacting all the members per se. We do know the officers that pay into the Federation and we do know the officers who pay into the group insurance, but there is no database for us to send a blanket communication to them all.

Chair

That is not satisfactory, is it?

Ian Edwards

No, it is not and that is why within the review they are talking about a national database, which is again very much reliant on ACPO and the use of their email facilities.

Chair

Indeed. Finally from me, Mr Tully, do you accept the Normington report in its entirety? Do you think Steve Williams was right to do it and that you now accept all the conclusions or are there still things to discuss?

John Tully

I think there are very much still things to discuss. We have gone through a process within the Metropolitan Police Service and I think other federations have done the same—we have certainly done it in chairmen and secretaries’ meetings nationally—where we have addressed each of the recommendations in turn. There are clearly some that we could sign up to today. We have red/amber/green coded them. Currently, the Met’s position is that we are pretty much green on 13 of the 36 and there are only eight that we have grave concerns about and are red. The remainder are amber, working towards becoming green. The great majority of the recommendations could be accepted.

Chair

Were you surprised to hear today that Steve Williams was considering his resignation?

John Tully

I had not heard that previously.

Chair

Mr Edwards, do you accept Normington? Do you think it was right to set it up? Would you accept all the recommendations?

Ian Edwards

Absolutely. We need to be fit for purpose and I do not think we are.

Chair

Are they all green, as Mr Tully says, or is it amber?

Ian Edwards

We are not quite as bad as the Met. We have 17 green, 16 amber that we think need more work, and three that are currently red.[1]

Chair

What are the red ones you will not accept? Give us an example; not all of them, just one.

Ian Edwards

Okay. I will go to the first one, which is the last one, which is the reduction of 25% of subscriptions, which is quite controversial. We need to be fit for purpose for a long time.

Chair

You have £2.6 million in your bank.

Ian Edwards

Our membership in the West Mids, and I know we have done it recently, is going down 5% year on year. If we were to take the hit in the West Mids of a 25% reduction, by 2018 we would be making a small deficit. Now, I think we need to do some more work to make sure that we are not taking money from the taxpayers’ purse. It is important that we are self-sufficient.

Chair

Mr Tully, you do not want to give any money back, as Mr Normington has suggested?

John Tully

We are in a similar position to West Mids. It is difficult, we think, to make a kneejerk reaction in giving a refund of that amount only to possibly come back the following year to say, “We have to increase these subscriptions”. I think it is important to point out, though, Chairman, that when the 23% hike in subscriptions came about nationally the Metropolitan Federation opposed that. We at that time, to offset that increase to our members, included a standalone service that they had previously had to pay for within their subscriptions. They no longer have to pay for that.

Michael Ellis

Do you know who would have threatened the former head of communications with legal action?

Ian Edwards

No idea.

Michael Ellis

Former head of communications at the Police Federation? I appreciate it is the national body as opposed to the Met or the West Midlands. You have no idea?

Ian Edwards

No. My dealings with Fiona were very good. I spoke to her once and she advised me on a credit—

Michael Ellis

Did it seem to you consistent with the culture that you understand to have been the case within the Police Federation?

John Tully

I certainly have not experienced any of that alleged behaviour personally. It did surprise me to hear it today.

Michael Ellis

What about the use of this public relations company? Whose idea would that have been? Do either of you have any knowledge of it or did you have any knowledge of it when it was undertaken?

John Tully

Well, I was aware that there was an arrangement or a contract between the Gaunt Brothers and the national Federation. It is important to say that the Metropolitan Federation were not consulted in any way, shape or form around that employment, nor were we consulted when that was terminated.

Michael Ellis

It was nothing to do with you at the Met?

John Tully

No.

Michael Ellis

Was it anything to do with you at West Midlands?

Ian Edwards

No. We did sign a contract eventually with the Gaunt Brothers.

Michael Ellis

You did?

Ian Edwards

Yes, following a recommendation from the national Federation. They would supply us with media training, key messages to the members and how to take stories forward into the press.

Michael Ellis

I see. What about guerrilla tactics?

Ian Edwards

That is not in my contract, no.

Michael Ellis

Do you think it is appropriate for the police of any branch to undertake guerrilla tactics against a democratically elected Government?

Ian Edwards

No, I do not think it is.

Michael Ellis

When you or your organisation or your branch of the Federation contracted, you had no intention of any guerrilla tactics being used?

Ian Edwards

No.

Michael Ellis

Do you know what work they undertook if not nationally then as far as the West Midlands force was concerned?

Ian Edwards

Yes. We had regular meetings with them around stories that were in the media and how our members’ concerns could be articulated into stories. For instance, they would examine the media. They would look for stories where there was an interest that we could write to a newspaper and say, “Well, this is our point of view”.

Michael Ellis

Was this at the time, Mr Edwards, when there was a political conference in Birmingham, within the West Midlands area?

Ian Edwards

We employed the Gaunt Brothers for six months in June and that contract terminated in December. So, yes, they were employed by us and other federations.

Michael Ellis

During the time of a party political conference by the Conservative Party in Birmingham?

Ian Edwards

Yes.

Michael Ellis

Were you aware that banners were placed by the Police Federation around the conference centre of a political nature?

Ian Edwards

Yes.

Michael Ellis

Do you approve of those?

Ian Edwards

I would not say of a political nature. They were part of a wider cuts campaign. Yes, I do approve of those. I think we have to robustly voice our members’ concerns. That is what we are elected to do and that is what we were doing.

Michael Ellis

How much did the contract terms include? How much was it?

Ian Edwards

Well, I have signed a confidentiality clause. I am quite happy for the Committee to have the contract once I have taken some advice. I would not like to put myself in a difficult position, or the Federation. I am more than happy for you to see the contract once I have taken some advice.

Michael Ellis

Certainly. Finally from me, do you accept the characterisation that there is an unacceptable culture within the Police Federation? In other words, what I am saying is do you accept the Normington conclusions and that of over 90% of the members who responded that there needs to be fundamental change?

Ian Edwards

Yes, I do.

Michael Ellis

You accept that. Who do you think is to blame for the culture having gone wrong in the first place? It may well predate, but I would like to know who you think is to blame for that culture.

Ian Edwards

I cannot say. I do not know.

Michael Ellis

Well you accept that there is a cultural flaw because you think that it needs change?

Ian Edwards

Yes, I do. I think the problem is that the local Federation interacts with members on a regular daily basis. If there has been a problem, it is the removal of Federation reps into a central committee who do not hear the voices of the members on a daily basis. Whereas my phone is hot, my email is hot, it is important that Federation members nationally also hear that.

Michael Ellis

Mr Tully, did you want to add anything?

John Tully

Only that it is interesting that the Normington report quotes the response from membership is 91% favouring change. I have no doubt that a proportion of the responses were from Federation members, but not all of the 12,500 responses were received from members. I think that 91% is a misrepresentation of the actual numbers. Notwithstanding that, it is clear to us at the Metropolitan Police Federation that there is need for change. We are supporting it through its processes, but I think it is very important that we do not kneejerk, that we do not rush into something that fails in a very short time, and that we get it right first time round.

Michael Ellis

Who do you blame for the culture having gone wrong in the first place?

John Tully

It is difficult to pinpoint any individuals. I think it may be, as Mr Edwards says, a removal from frontline reality, as it were, in some respects from the national committee.

Mark Reckless

Do either of you gentlemen accept any of that blame yourselves or do you have any regrets over how your federations have been involved with the campaign against the cuts and specifically the use of Andrew Mitchell’s incident?

John Tully

It is very difficult for me to make any comment in respect of Andrew Mitchell and the Downing Street incident. It is a sub judice issue. Additionally, I am potentially a witness in the civil actions because I have made a statement to the Director of Professional Standards post event. It would be very difficult for me to stray into that area.

Mark Reckless

Mr Edwards, could I ask you? Do you have any regrets?

Ian Edwards

Yes, I do regret the damage the whole of the incident caused to everybody concerned. I think it would be wrong to comment further while there are three actions still outstanding. Of course I regret the damage caused to everybody.

Mr Winnick

Would it be right to say that the feeling among police up and down the country over what was called the Winsor report was pretty strong in disapproval? Would that be the position?

Ian Edwards

Absolutely.

Mr Winnick

Would it also be the case that there was also strong feeling about the cuts imposed by the present Government? They gave their reasons why, of course, but it aroused strong feelings.

Ian Edwards

Yes, that is true. I have never encountered a strength of feeling from the membership. I came on to the Federation full time in 2008. I have never felt that strength from my colleagues that I represent.

Mr Winnick

If the Police Federation did not reflect that and campaign accordingly, what would be the purpose of the Police Federation, Mr Edwards?

Ian Edwards

Absolutely. I would be out of post within a very short space of time if I failed to represent my members’ views. As chair of West Mids, that is what I am elected to do and that is what I try my very hardest to do.

Mr Winnick

Therefore, if the response was minimal, if the leadership, be it yourselves or your other senior colleagues, showed very little interest despite the very strong feelings of your members, they would say, “Well”—

Ian Edwards

They would stop paying is the answer.

Mr Winnick

Yes. Recognising that and arising from the question that has been put to you by Mr Reckless, is it not the case that some of the tactics used, leaving aside a recommendation over the reform of the Police Federation, and certainly what happened over Andrew Mitchell, played right into the hands of the very people who were pursuing policies that your members are very strongly opposed to?

Ian Edwards

Yes, hindsight is an absolutely fantastic thing. In the same situation again, I do not think our Federation would do the same.

Mr Winnick

Mr Tully, you would agree that it played right into the hands of the very people pursuing policies that you were campaigning about?

John Tully

Certainly, Mr Winnick, I concur with Mr Edwards’ characterisation of how we represent our members. It is of the utmost importance that we reflect their views. I think it is regrettable, not straying into the specifics of the Downing Street incident, that there are so many distractions that have grown out of that incident that have deflected us from the true purpose of why we are here today, which is to promote the reform of the Police Federation.

Mr Winnick

The final question from me, because otherwise we will not have an audience at all, simply is this. Will you be willing with your senior colleagues to do everything possible to carry out the reforms that are necessary, and certainly necessary on behalf of your members, to make sure the Police Federation is one where one can admire the work being done and that the internal workings will not be subject to justified criticism?

John Tully

Absolutely, and I submitted a written report to the Committee prior to this meeting that reflects our willingness to engage in the process. I think I have already said it is important that we get the process correct and the end result is fit for purpose and that we should not rush into it. Certainly, we support the process.

Mr Winnick

I take that to be your view as well, Mr Edwards?

Ian Edwards

Absolutely.

Mr Winnick

So we can keep an audience for the moment.

Dr Huppert

First, to go back to some of the stuff in Normington, you both identified some red areas. Sometimes red means not implemented yet, some you do not want to implement. Could you perhaps write to the Committee with the list of which are the areas that you do not want to implement as opposed to ones that just take some time?

John Tully

I will send you our full report, green/amber/red.

Ian Edwards

I will do the same.

Dr Huppert

That would be very helpful from both of you. Can I then turn to the issue about the survey and what people thought? I think, Mr Tully, you questioned the 91% figure. The report says that 68% of members were fairly or very dissatisfied the national leadership was adequately safeguarding their interests. While it was better at local level, which is presumably your areas, 47% were dissatisfied against 30% satisfied. Now, obviously different local areas might be the case. Have you had a chance to have a look at your own local breakdowns? Do you have a sense of how that can be addressed?

Ian Edwards

There are a lot of outside factors and it is people’s perceptions about what is achievable and what is not achievable. Quite often I have spoken to my members who have said to me, “Why haven’t you stopped the pension reforms? I am working longer, paying more and getting less as a result”. It is probably about communication and what is achievable and saying to people, “We are in a different world. We are in a time of austerity”. The police have been through a period where money was not really the issue. Now we are suffering. It is about educating people’s perception of what is achievable locally. Myself and John do not negotiate nationally around pay and conditions, but it is important that they know that we are passing their message on nationally so that the people I represent feel that they are being heard.

Dr Huppert

The problem is that they do not understand how hard you are working for them?

Ian Edwards

I think there is some of that, yes.

John Tully

I think there is a misconception or a lack of understanding, and that is not meant to be disrespectful to the membership. They do not see the West Midlands Police Federation. They do not see the Met Police Federation. They see “the Federation” and they see their terms and conditions eroded. They see their access to overtime eroded, their pay frozen for two years, their incremental rates frozen for two years, and the relentless media attack on policing in general, the reference to historical incidents that tar everyone with the same brush. Our morale is rock bottom and I think the important thing is they do not differentiate between ourselves and the national Federation because a lot of that is the national Federation’s responsibility. Negotiating pay and conditions is their bag. Where our strength lies, I think, is local representation and negotiation with chief officers, in our case the commissioner. We have a fantastic working relationship with the current senior leadership team of the Met and with the Deputy Mayor for Policing. That is where I think we excel. The other area where we excel is in representation, which our members pay for. If you balance all the negatives in the atmosphere of policing, there is no wonder that there was such a damning response to the request for information by the Normington team.

Mark Reckless

Dr Huppert, do you have one last question?

Dr Huppert

Yes. I do tend to agree there is a real problem with morale among police. I have spoken to a huge number of police officers who are very upset about some of the incidents that have happened and how that has reflected on the vast majority of police officers who do not get caught up in these sorts of problems. I am slightly concerned that both of you seem to be suggesting that the major problem is simply that they do not know what you do. In most organisations, if they do not really know what you are doing for them, that suggests you have a massive communications problem and that you need to address that as a matter of urgency.

Ian Edwards

I think the people we touch locally understand what we do and when they are asking for representation locally, be it discipline, personnel equalities, bullying issues, they see what we do locally.

Dr Huppert

But they say they are dissatisfied.

Ian Edwards

I guess it is more difficult from a point of view to see what is achieved nationally. Although I know there is a lot of hard work going on nationally to try to protect their pay and conditions, I think it is a communication issue. I need to make sure that I am passing that back down to the people I represent saying, “Look, we are working hard nationally and locally to try to maintain your pay and conditions”.

Mark Reckless

Mr Tully and Mr Edwards, finally from me, is there a tension between around 80% of Federation members being constables, yet there then being equal representation for the three branches? Does that lead to the constables almost acting as a union within a union, so to speak?

John Tully

That certainly does not happen within the Metropolitan Police Federation. As we are currently constituted, each rank group has equal representation. We each have equal voices around the table. Clearly, the Normington report suggests that should change. I am not entirely convinced that that is the right way to go. We need to think long and hard before we make such a fundamental change to the organisation, but it may be that some of the constables around the country feel underrepresented.

Mark Reckless

Mr Edwards, does the organisation not need fundamental change?

Ian Edwards

No, it does. I think it does need fundamental change and that is why we have put a lot of time and effort into going through the Normington report and thoroughly support what is happening, thoroughly support Steve Williams.

Mark Reckless

Do you support those recommendations about the changes for the representation of the three different ranks?

Ian Edwards

I think we need to look at it. I agree with John, it needs careful consideration because we should not be rushing into something that we have to fix again in two or three years’ time. This needs sorting properly.

Mark Reckless

Mr Tully, Mr Edwards, thank you very much for coming to the Committee today. This session is closed.

John Tully

Thank you.

Ian Edwards

Thank you. Oral evidence: Reform of the Police Federation, HC 1163 3 [1] Note by witness: Following my oral evidence, we have re-visited all the recommendations and as a result we now have 19 Green recommendations, 14 amber and 3 red. This differs slightly from my evidence given at the time. [Please see written evidence Fed0005].