Oral evidence: Reform of the Police Federation, HC 1163Tuesday, 8 April 2014
Oral evidence, 8 April 2014.
Witness
Martyn Mordecai, Treasurer, Police Federation, gave evidence.
Chair
Mr Mordecai, good afternoon and thank you very much for coming in to see the Committee. We have a vote at 5.30 pm, so we hope to complete your evidence by then. Were you as surprised as the Committee was to hear of the resignation of Steve Williams and Ian Rennie? Or did you expect it after you saw the memo from Steve Williams of 1 February?
Martyn Mordecai
If I can refer to the memo first, I had not seen that memo. I was on annual leave at the time. When it was alluded to today was the first that I was aware of it. In relation to the surprise, yes, I was surprised. I was not in the office because I was dealing with other matters, but I was surprised when I saw the e-mail resignation of Ian Rennie and Steve Williams.
Chair
You said that you had not seen the memo. That is a message to the joint central committee. Are you a member of the joint central committee?
Martyn Mordecai
I am indeed.
Chair
Even though you were on holiday, does that mean you do not get e-mails?
Martyn Mordecai
I was trying not to check. Was that an e-mail? Can I clarify?
Chair
I don’t know, but I would imagine that, even if you are on holiday, you would have got a copy of this message from Mr Williams. No?
Martyn Mordecai
May I see it? I don’t mean to be obstructive.
Chair
Yes, of course. You don’t recognise it.
Martyn Mordecai
I do not recognise this at all, Chair.
Chair
How close is your office to Steve Williams’s office in Leatherhead?
Martyn Mordecai
Two doors away.
Chair
Two doors. So when you came back from your holiday, nobody came up to you when you went to get your coffee or tea, “Actually something pretty big has happened. Steve has said that he is being humiliated and cruelly bullied in a gratuitous way by other members of the central committee.”
Martyn Mordecai
No, Chair, this is the first that I have seen of this.
Chair
You do not know any examples of Steve Williams, your chairman who was two doors away from you, being treated in an inappropriate way? This is the first that you are hearing of this?
Martyn Mordecai
I am aware that Steve has been under an awful amount of pressure. If we go back to the decision that he made to implement the independent review, it was a decision he made quite quickly. Criticism was levelled at him for that. I would be lying to say that it was not. There were people who disagreed with it and people who supported it. The issues were worked through.
Chair
We know all that and we understand, but when you are chairman of the Police Federation it is not a walk in the park, is it? It is a pressurised job. He is not saying he was pressurised; he was saying that he was cruelly bullied and humiliated, and none of that reached your door.
Martyn Mordecai
No. I am aware he has been under pressure, but no specific examples have been given.
Chair
Whose office is between yours and his?
Martyn Mordecai
Just a meeting room.
Chair
How often did you meet Steve Williams?
Martyn Mordecai
In passing, Steve will come into my office and chat. I was aware he was under huge pressure, but no actual examples of this word “bullying”.
Chair
So Ian Rennie resigned and announced his retirement after the conference. Is there no information from him as to why he has gone?
Martyn Mordecai
No; I had a conversation with Ian on Wednesday night. I am aware that he was feeling tired. He just felt—I am trying to think of the appropriate word—that he did not have the support any more of the joint central committee. I said goodbye to him at lunchtime on Thursday, because he was travelling back up to Manchester. The first I knew about his intention to resign was when the e-mail came out yesterday.
Chair
That is very odd, isn’t it? Presumably you work very closely with the chairman and the general secretary. As treasurer, you are a very senior officer.
Martyn Mordecai
That is correct.
Chair
And nobody said anything to you. You went to Leatherhead and everything was pressurised, but there was nothing untoward.
Martyn Mordecai
Nothing beyond what normally happens, in terms of yes, there is a huge amount of pressure. There are people, as Sir David has referred to, that are not resistant to change, but you have to manage the change process—
Chair
Do you support the changes?
Martyn Mordecai
Yes, I do fully support the change process.
Chair
Why have you not joined in with the other two in resigning then?
Martyn Mordecai
Because I want to see the change process through.
Chair
So you think that Steve Williams should have stayed on?
Martyn Mordecai
I am sorry to see him go. The decision to retire from the police service is an individual decision.
Chair
Of course, but what is in the best interests of the police service? Do you think it is best that he does what you are doing, which is to see the changes through? You have signed up to these changes. You are a reformer—is that right?
Martyn Mordecai
I am. I would like to see those changes through—yes, I would.
Chair
So you presumably were on the phone, saying, “Steve don’t do this. You must stay.”
Martyn Mordecai
I have not had a conversation with Steve about this. I have not actually spoken to him since he announced his retirement.
Chair
Have you tried to ring him?
Martyn Mordecai
I e-mailed him yesterday, but I haven’t tried speaking to him on the phone.
Chair
No member of the central committee has gone to the chairman and said, “Think again. This is a bad idea.”
Martyn Mordecai
Not to my knowledge.
Chair
Do you think that is odd?
Martyn Mordecai
I do not know if anybody has spoken to him. This is the sort of thing I am trying to answer, Chair—
Chair
But general behaviour—it is the chairman of your organisation.
Martyn Mordecai
I think it is sad that Steve has gone. It is a decision that he has clearly made after discussion with his family, but likewise, I think this is an opportunity as well—this is a golden opportunity. As Sir David has referred to, this is our report. We have commissioned it.
Chair
Sorry, what is an opportunity? Sir David has just given evidence to us saying he was very disappointed. I, as Chairman of the Committee, and members of the Committee are very disappointed, and the Home Secretary accepted it, because it happened. You are saying that we should welcome this resignation and retirement because it gives you a golden opportunity to do what?
Martyn Mordecai
No, I do not welcome the resignation. I am sad that Steve has made that decision to retire.
Chair
But you do not want him to stay on. You would not want him to reconsider.
Martyn Mordecai
Once people have made that decision—I have seen it with other people; I saw it with Paul McKeever. Once Paul made that decision to retire—you just see the stress go from them and the relief. It is hard to drag people back from that. I do not think that there are people within the joint central committee that will not drive the changes forward. That is the most important thing. That is why I am staying. I am not going.
Chair
Even though you do not communicate with any other colleagues on these issues, you still want to stay.
Martyn Mordecai
I still want to stay. I want to see these changes through, that is assuming I am re-elected.
Chair
You mentioned Paul McKeever. In this letter—in this message—Steve Williams said: “We all saw what happened to our friend and colleague Paul McKeever”. Was that pressure or was there bullying of other members of Federation staff?
Martyn Mordecai
I think Paul was under a huge amount of pressure.
Chair
From these people.
Martyn Mordecai
Potentially from these people. I can’t comment—
Chair
Can you remember how many?
Martyn Mordecai
I have no idea how many. What has been read out to me, this letter—today is the first opportunity I have had to see this.
Chair
Right. Let me look now at your role as treasurer. As treasurer, one would have imagined that you would know the number of accounts and the amount in individual accounts. Why did you not know, as treasurer, how much money was in the No. 2 accounts?
Martyn Mordecai
In relation to the No. 2 accounts, the No. 2 accounts have to be set up as trusts. From our counsel’s opinion, there is a view that depending on the wording of the trust, they might not fall within regulation 20 of the Police Federation financial regulations and therefore, they would not be disclosable to me. Since I sent out this request—
Chair
You did not think it was your job, as treasurer of the Federation, to try and find out how much money was in each of these accounts that was held locally. You did not think that you had the authority or that it was your job.
Martyn Mordecai
I have been trying to find out for a while how much is in these accounts.
Chair
When did you first start?
Martyn Mordecai
Probably when I started off, in about 2009 or 2010.
Chair
How did you seek the information?
Martyn Mordecai
Initially, I was asking for people to be open. We need to have a discussion about these No. 2 accounts, the services that are being provided—
Chair
But did you not write to people and say, “I have taken over as treasurer. I am keen to know how much money is being held locally.”
Martyn Mordecai
Not at that point. In relation to the amount that is held locally, I knew how much was being held locally in relation to the subscription income fund. Would it help if I explained how the funding structure of the Federation works?
Chair
I think we know. We just want to know what you did. An explanation of the structure, I think we are aware of. You did not, until March this year, and after the Normington report, write to all the branches. Have they all now written back with their information?
Martyn Mordecai
There are 15 joint branch boards that run No. 2 accounts. Twelve of them have disclosed the information to me, and three of them have declined.
Chair
Which are the three?
Martyn Mordecai
North Yorkshire, which stated that it has an old trust and is outside regulation 20 of the Police Federation financial regulations. Malcolm Mills from Leicestershire has said that he would prefer to appear before the Home Affairs Committee and explain its trust. Derbyshire, whose treasurer is Mr Adam Galley, e-mailed me at lunchtime on Sunday to say that he had met with their executive, and Derbyshire felt that they have given me sufficient information. Everyone is aware that I am appearing in front of you today.
Chair
Those three branches have refused to do so.
Martyn Mordecai
Correct.
Chair
How much money does the Police Federation have nationally?
Martyn Mordecai
In relation to?
Chair
Anything. How many accounts do you control, Mr Mordecai, as treasurer?
Martyn Mordecai
I am treasurer for the joint fund. I collate all the information that comes in. You are aware of the funding mechanism, how it works and how it remains at local level. I can tell the Committee that, in relation to the subscription income funds—28 joint branch boards have their member services accounts in those, and three of those joint branch boards charge nothing at all, as has been referred to—there is £29,598,230, including assets; I should have gone to Specsavers.
Chair
How many credit cards are issued by the Federation to members in your office?
Martyn Mordecai
For the joint central committee, I would issue credit cards to those who require them.
Chair
How many have them?
Martyn Mordecai
Nearly all the 30 members.
Chair
So you are telling this Committee that, at the moment, the Federation has £29.5 million in assets.
Martyn Mordecai
In relation to what is outside the 43 joint branch boards.
Chair
Yes, and in terms of the 43 minus three?
Martyn Mordecai
The No. 2 accounts?
Chair
Yes. Minus North Yorkshire, Leicestershire and Derbyshire.
Martyn Mordecai
The No. 2 accounts stand at £4,566,248. In relation to the overall picture of the Police Federation of England and Wales, the total amount of money that is in the accumulative fund, which includes assets, equates to £107,287,467.
Chair
What is the cash at the bank?
Martyn Mordecai
As of 31 December 2013, it is £21,911,995.
Chair
So you would understand why Sir David Normington suggested that some or all of the members ought to have some of that money back.
Martyn Mordecai
I have been arguing this for ages. The funding structure of the Federation is archaic; it is fundamentally wrong. That is one of the reasons I want to stay.
Chair
Let me say this finally. Members of the Federation who have talked to me about you say that you are pretty tough on claims being made. Anecdotally, when you are away on holiday, there is a little notice put on your door saying that the treasurer is away. Do you think that you have conducted your job effectively as treasurer, even though you do not know a lot of information as to how many assets are being held?
Martyn Mordecai
Yes I do. When I inherited the position of the national treasurer, if you look at the accounts you will see that the expenditure was outstripping the income—the subscription income. I had to put a number of control measures in place in very quick time to stop the rot becoming permanent and there are a number of issues in relation to the budgets that I introduced, the budget controls that I introduced and a number of other measures that brought about the fact that—
Chair
Do you wish you had worked harder than you did to try to get this information on the No. 2 accounts out?
Martyn Mordecai
I worked extremely hard, Chair. It took its toll to get as much information as I did. This has taken its toll—
Chair
What do you mean, “It took its toll?”
Martyn Mordecai
This takes a toll on my health; I have to be honest that it has taken a toll on my health.
Chair
So have you been bullied, Mr Mordecai?
Martyn Mordecai
No. I have to say that I have not been bullied. I have been subject to rigorous comment and I accept that as the nature of the job—
Chair
From who, Mr Mordecai?
Martyn Mordecai
Just colleagues who don’t want to disclose the No. 2 information—
Chair
So they have been nasty to you?
Martyn Mordecai
I wouldn’t put it as “nasty”, no. It is just the nature of the job—
Chair
Abusive?
Martyn Mordecai
On occasions, yes.
Chair
Because you have asked for information that you thought was needed, colleagues of yours have been abusive to you because you have asked for genuine information about the accounts they hold. Is that right?
Martyn Mordecai
Occasionally, yes.
Chair
Well, this Committee would find that totally unsatisfactory and we are sorry that you have had to be put through that.
Michael Ellis
Mr Mordecai, you have disclosed that there are £107 million of assets in the Police Federation and £22 million effectively in the bank account.
Martyn Mordecai
That is correct.
Michael Ellis
Do you have any financial qualifications of your own?
Martyn Mordecai
No, I don’t. I have underneath me two very good members of staff who are qualified accountants and three account technicians.
Michael Ellis
Don’t you think it’s rather odd that the treasurer of an organisation with £107 million in assets and £22 million in the bank account does not have any financial qualifications of his own?
Martyn Mordecai
Well, one of the recommendations of Sir David’s report is to do away with the role of the deputy treasurer and to introduce a director of finance. But I have to say, sir, that I inherited a deficit; I have turned that deficit around into a positive.
Michael Ellis
Federation branches failed to co-operate with Sir David in providing him with the information that you now, in large part, have. Is that right?
Martyn Mordecai
That is correct.
Michael Ellis
And three of them are still failing to co-operate?
Martyn Mordecai
That is correct.
Michael Ellis
Knowing that you were appearing before this Committee?
Martyn Mordecai
That is correct.
Michael Ellis
Did you sign off on a guerrilla war-style contract, a blitzkrieg-type contract, which was with Gaunt Brothers Ltd? Did you sign off on that contract?
Martyn Mordecai
No, I didn’t. It was not my signature on the contract.
Michael Ellis
Did you know about the contract?
Martyn Mordecai
I was aware of the contract. I was not happy. My understanding is that the current chairman, Mr Williams, introduced the Gaunt Brothers to Mr McKeever, about using them. I was cited on the contract. I was concerned, first of all, about using them, period—I make no bones about that—and I was likewise concerned that within the contract there was no break clause. I insisted, as I do with all my contracts now that we deal with them, that we have a break clause.
Michael Ellis
Was there no break clause in this contract?
Martyn Mordecai
Not in the first one that I was cited on.
Michael Ellis
The Jon Gaunt Brothers Ltd contract was broken after two months, wasn’t it?
Martyn Mordecai
That is correct.
Michael Ellis
Is it right that the remuneration was £10,000 a month?
Martyn Mordecai
Chair, I am bound by confidentiality agreement with that contract—
Chair
We will release you from that, as you are addressing a Committee of the House of Commons in terms of our public inquiry. So I release you of that responsibility.
Martyn Mordecai
Sir, can you just repeat the question?
Michael Ellis
Was the contract with the Gaunt Brothers £10,000 a month?
Martyn Mordecai
The contract with the Gaunt Brothers was £15,000 a month.
Michael Ellis
£15,000 a month? And that has been described by another witness before this Committee as a guerrilla contract. Do you agree that it set the tone for a highly personal and political attack on the Government of the day?
Martyn Mordecai
The words that are being used in relation to the schedule—I don’t think it was about personal attacks. I think it was raising at the time a number of issues that were affecting the welfare and efficiency of our officers, and that has a direct impact on affecting the public, and that is the main thing.
Michael Ellis
Is it correct that the late Mr McKeever wrote a letter opposing the use of this company and that he was ignored by the heads of the three federations when they later went on to use them?
Martyn Mordecai
My understanding is that that is correct, sir, yes.
Michael Ellis
I thought you said in answer to my earlier question that it was Mr Williams you were referring to who disapproved.
Martyn Mordecai
No, I disapproved.
Michael Ellis
Are you confirming that the late Mr McKeever wrote a letter asking Police Federation bodies not to use this company, but they ignored that?
Martyn Mordecai
That is correct.
Michael Ellis
As far as that contract is concerned, did you then or do you now agree that it was a wholly inappropriate way for the Police Federation to conduct its business?
Martyn Mordecai
I come back to what I have been open about from the word go: I never wanted to use them in the first place.
Michael Ellis
Did you fly to Italy, or any other place, in order to source special slates for the luxury police headquarters at Leatherhead?
Martyn Mordecai
No sir.
Michael Ellis
Do you know who did within the Police Federation?
Martyn Mordecai
Yes—the previous treasurer and deputy treasurer went to Italy, but it was nothing to do with the slate.
Michael Ellis
What was it to do with?
Martyn Mordecai
It was to do with the toilet pods.
Chair
The what?
Martyn Mordecai
The toilet pods. If you go into a hotel room, you will have a separate bathroom and shower cubical area. The pods were sourced from Italy because it was cheaper to bring them across from Italy than to produce them in this country.
Chair
Thank you so much.
Michael Ellis
Was it an appropriate use of Police Federation funds for such equipment to be sourced from Italy and for the treasurer, previous or otherwise, and his deputy to fly over there personally in order to source that?
Martyn Mordecai
Well, it was cheapest way of doing it, and that was about value. I am very, very proud of Leatherhead—
Chair
And the pods, no doubt.
Martyn Mordecai
And the pods. I am very proud of Leatherhead. The decision to build it was made back in 2001. Surbiton was no longer fit for purpose; all we were doing was knocking through walls to extend offices. We would never have survived any disability discrimination action or anything like that. The decision about building Leatherhead was made prior to me coming on to the JCC. The final decision was made in about March 2005 and we went ahead and built it. I became the deputy treasurer in 2008 and was asked to take on responsibility for the building, which I did quite happily. It was running at a deficit and I have turned that into a profit. I am immensely proud of my staff—all the staff.
Michael Ellis
Mr Mordecai, you have access to tens of millions of pounds within a Police Federation that, by all accounts—as this Committee has discovered and Sir David Normington outlined—has very cryptic, very ambiguous arrangements indeed for its finances. You are a powerful man within that organisation, so do you not think it has been incumbent upon you to ensure that Sir David received the co-operation that he ought to have had? Do you not think that it ought not to have taken this amount of time for the figures to be disclosed?
Martyn Mordecai
The figures that I have disclosed to you, with the exception of the No. 2 accounts, I have always been aware of. I supplied some of the figures to Sir David myself when I gave my own evidence in August. There is nothing there that has not been disclosed before in relation to the F45s and the end of year audited accounts; the issue has been the separate No. 2 accounts. I have been arguing for ages that we need to get to grips with them.
Michael Ellis
Do you have a nickname within the Police Federation?
Martyn Mordecai
You are talking about the use of the word “Fingers”, sir.
Michael Ellis
Yes. Your nickname is Fingers.
Martyn Mordecai
Well, it is not a nickname I actually like to use, but I have been called Fingers, yes, sir.
Michael Ellis
Why do you have that nickname?
Martyn Mordecai
I think because when I took over in 2008-09, particularly in 2009, things needed getting to grips with very quickly, and I had to get my fingers on everything to bring it all under control.
Michael Ellis
Is it because you have access to and control over such large sums of money?
Martyn Mordecai
No, I disagree with you on that one. Yes, I have access to a huge amount of money, but I am responsible. I hate spending money, everybody knows that. I am not a great lover of spending any money.
Michael Ellis
But you do not have any financial qualifications and a large amount of money has been spent on what the press have described as “luxury” headquarters in Leatherhead, with hotel-style accommodation and all the rest of it.
Martyn Mordecai
The conference centre at Leatherhead is purpose-built; it is a fine building and fit for purpose. You use the word “luxury”. I invite the Committee, please, to come down to Leatherhead. Please come down, see what we do there and see the work that is done. If you think that I have a luxury flat, then please come across and view it.
Chair
Mr Mordecai, I have been down to Leatherhead, and the rest of the Committee will take up your invitation to come and see for ourselves.
Mr Winnick
You joined the police force 35 years ago?
Martyn Mordecai
I did, sir.
Mr Winnick
And you had various responsibilities as a constable, then as a sergeant. Your present position dates from 2008?
Martyn Mordecai
From 2008 as deputy treasurer and from 2009 as treasurer.
Mr Winnick
I will not press you on the matter, but would you like to tell the Committee what salary you receive? Because you are full-time, of course.
Martyn Mordecai
My salary is defined by the Police Federation regulations. I receive an enhancement on my substantive rank to that of a Metropolitan police inspector.
Mr Winnick
What would that figure be?
Martyn Mordecai
Just over £51,000, in relation to my salary—I am a top-rate sergeant, so that is £41,000, and there is a further enhancement to top-rate inspector, which takes it to just over £51,000. On top of that, I receive an enhanced allowance of just over £10,000.
Mr Winnick
Rounding it up?
Martyn Mordecai
Rounding it up would take it to just about £63,000.
Mr Winnick
Reference has been made to the fact that, despite your very heavy responsibilities financially, you have no qualifications. Is it the position that your predecessors were police officers, like yourself, and would not necessarily have had the qualifications associated with being responsible for large sums of money?
Martyn Mordecai
That is correct. If I can refer you back to Sir David Normington’s report, in chapters 6 and 7 he refers to the work that I have done in turning the Federation around.
Mr Winnick
Has anyone questioned your competence?
Martyn Mordecai
Not personally, no.
Mr Winnick
May I turn for a moment to the wider issue? Much has been said about the bullying culture at the Federation HQ—the letter that has just been quoted, from the outgoing chair, and the resignation of the general secretary, who has been accused of various things. When you became a full-time official of the Police Federation, were you aware beforehand of that kind of culture?
Martyn Mordecai
No.
Mr Winnick
And how soon, once you became the treasurer, were you aware that such bullying was going on?
Martyn Mordecai
I cannot put a time line on it. With what I inherited when I came into the position, within a couple of years—I say a couple of years, but in a very short space of time—I worked out that we were in trouble. The Federation was losing money fast, the expenditure was outstripping the income and I had to get to grips with that. The way I did so—the way that it had to be brought about—did cause a number of issues. I had to tighten up on a lot of expenditure and we started to introduce tendering processes. All that was alien. When I first came in, in 2005, as one of the representatives of the Metropolitan sergeants, I became the training secretary. The first thing that I introduced, because at that stage we were delivering training throughout the country, was a tendering process for the hotels. That had not been done before.
Mr Winnick
Because of time, I will ask only a couple more questions. Has anyone accused you yourself of bullying?
Martyn Mordecai
No.
Mr Winnick
When you discovered the sort of culture that you say you were not aware of before, did you take any action? Did you raise it with your colleagues and say, “This is unacceptable”, and the rest?
Martyn Mordecai
I would not have tolerated it. I feel to a certain extent that I am shadow boxing here, because I have not had any specific examples beyond what the Chair has given to me or what I was listening to with Sir David. We have got a bullying and harassment policy. All the managers have been trained and all the executives of the Joint Central Committee have been trained in it.
Chair
Trained to prevent it?
Martyn Mordecai
Trained to prevent it, recognise it and deal with it.
Mr Winnick
My final question: do you think that there is a real future for the Federation, and that it is capable of reforming itself and becoming an organisation once again to be respected?
Martyn Mordecai
Absolutely. This is a golden opportunity. I accept what has happened over the past 24 hours, but this is a golden opportunity for us. This is our report, and we commissioned it. Nobody is speaking negatively about it. Everybody is happy to embrace change, and everybody is happy to take the recommendations forward. Sir David has alluded to it. We are working hard; we have not had this report on 20 January and just sat there and done nothing with it. We have had a number of meetings, and we are having further meetings tomorrow and on Thursday to deal with it. Another one has been scheduled—
Chair
Thank you. We are very grateful to hear that.
Mark Reckless
If everybody is so keen to drive forward Sir David’s recommendations, why have people been bullying Steve Williams and driving him from office—previously described as the old guard who did not want to implement the recommendations?
Martyn Mordecai
I do not know why Steve has finally decided to retire. He has put out correspondence that says—I do not know whether it is a discussion he has had at home. I assume it is going to be a discussion he has had at home with his wife. I do not know why he has made the final decision now, but that will not prevent the recommendations from going forward. Like any major project, there may be some slippage, possibly—
Mark Reckless
Everyone on the JCC is fully behind all the recommendations, are they?
Martyn Mordecai
Everyone is behind the recommendations. There is going to come a point, particularly in relation to the finances, when I am going to have to ask Parliament to change the regulations. I need to make sure that those regulations are right when I come before Parliament and ask the Home Secretary to make the changes. It is no good me coming to the Home Secretary and saying, “Please can you make these changes?” and I am trying to bang a square peg into a round hole. Then I will be back six months later asking the Home Secretary to put them right.
Mark Reckless
So you are telling this Committee that there is no old guard. No members of the JCC are working against Sir David’s recommendations?
Martyn Mordecai
No. We are all working hard to achieve what the recommendations are showing. I am looking forward to conference. I am looking forward to people seeing the positive attitude that has been taken to Sir David’s report.
Mark Reckless
Why did people fight so hard to avoid disclosing No. 2 accounts?
Martyn Mordecai
This is something I have been battling with. I have always argued that, in relation to our members’ services, we can get better deals for our members in relation to life insurance because of the bulk buying power that we have with over 125,000 members. I have been subject to a lot of resistance to change for that, because what happens at a local level, at a joint branch board level—I need to emphasise that there is nothing illegal about these No. 2 accounts.
Chair
Not as far as you know. You did not even know how much was in them, Mr Mordecai. I would caution you against making a statement of that kind.
Mark Reckless
And why would people resist disclosure so strongly if you could get better value centrally? What are they getting? How are they benefiting out of it being done locally?
Martyn Mordecai
Each of the joint branch boards, with the exception of three of them, will put a levy on their member services. If you are having insurance and you are, for the sake of argument, paying £10 a month at base level—that is the insurer’s level—the joint branch board may put a levy of 50p or £1. I do not know the exact figures, but it would be up to them to put a levy. That would be the additional income for them that, as I referred to today, is sitting in the No. 2 accounts.
Mark Reckless
What do they do with that money?
Martyn Mordecai
That assists them to run their offices and provide members of staff and additional facilities in relation to running their offices.
Mark Reckless
Are you wanting to assure the Committee that none of that has been taken by anyone for personal benefit?
Martyn Mordecai
I would hope so.
Chair
But you don’t know, do you? That is the point.
Martyn Mordecai
I don’t know for certain.
Mark Reckless
We infer from what you said before that all but three of the federations locally filed their No. 2 accounts. Have they all audited them?
Martyn Mordecai
The audited ones I have had for the latter part of this year, with the exception of the three that I have mentioned.
Mark Reckless
When you wrote to the regional treasurers on 23 January, you said that the third phase of this process was: all No. 2 and any other accounts held under regulation 20 for the years 2007 until 2012 to be audited and filed with the JCC and chief constables by 17 April 2014. Are you on track with that?
Martyn Mordecai
It is work ongoing. I know that there have been some delays with some of it, but it is continuing.
Mark Reckless
You have less than 10 days to complete it.
Martyn Mordecai
I accept that. I think there may be some delays with some of it.
Mark Reckless
The first year or two of those accounts predate your time as treasurer and for one year as deputy treasurer. You raised concerns about what was going on with spending at the Police Federation before you came in. What do you think we are likely to find when those 2007 accounts are filed and properly audited?
Martyn Mordecai
Hopefully nothing beyond the fact that you have the income and expenditure in relation to the No. 2 accounts. In relation to the joint branch boards which, as Mr Edwards referred to last year, do not have a No. 2 account, everything is incorporated into their No. 1 account, so they are audited every year, and I have that information.
Mark Reckless
Do you consider that, given the scale of concern—Sir David mentioned that there may not be dodgy things going on, but that people are concerned that there may be because people are refusing to disclose them—it would be sensible not just to report those accounts to the relevant chief constables and to the JCC, but to publish all those accounts going back to 2007?
Martyn Mordecai
Some of the joint branch boards have already decided to do that. I am aware that Greater Manchester has now decided it will go online and you will see there that their No. 1 account is already up and published online.
Mark Reckless
Unless everyone does that, suspicion will continue to be cast on the Federation as a whole.
Martyn Mordecai
There is a real will to publish these online.
Chair
Mr Mordecai, it would be very helpful to the Committee if you could write to us with all the information that you have mentioned, breaking it down according to each of the regions and joint boards. Could you let us have the addresses of the three branches that have refused to co-operate with you? We will be writing to them formally and asking for this information, because some of the information that you have given us, although I am sure it is right, we took down very quickly. You said that the accumulated fund for the No. 2 accounts was £4 million. In evidence to us last week, John Tully said that the Metropolitan Police Federation accumulated fund sat at £4.6 million. If that is just the Met, and if you add all the other 12, it is considerably more than that, isn’t it? If you have got it now, that’s fine.
Martyn Mordecai
The net current assets of the Police Federation of England and Wales in total at joint branch board level come to £29,598,230, and the Met’s £4.6 million is part of that.
Chair
It would be extremely helpful if you wrote to us as soon as possible—by midday on Thursday—with all that information and the names and addresses of the secretaries of the three branches that I have mentioned, with the document. What worries and puzzles me, Mr Mordecai, is that you have had a very difficult situation over the past 24 hours with the resignation of your chairman and your general secretary, for the reasons that we have seen in the memorandum that has been sent, of which you have absolutely no knowledge. That really puzzles us, bearing in mind the close-knit way in which the Federation operates. You know, because you were a friend of Paul McKeever, of the pressure on him. You alluded to that pressure today. Sadly, the last chairman of the Federation died in mid-office and the present chairman has resigned. Are you confident that the future will be brighter?
Martyn Mordecai
Yes.
Chair
Why?
Martyn Mordecai
Because I am determined, along with everyone else. This is a golden opportunity for the Police Federation. No one is against change. It is about driving the change forward in a managed process. The time scales that have been set by Sir David are very challenging. We are not saying that they are not challenging, but like any other project it needs to be properly debated and thought through correctly. There will come a time when I need to approach the Home Secretary about changing the regulations on financing. We need to get it right.
Chair
We understand. You told us that. Thank you very much for coming today. We will write to you for further information. Oral evidence: Reform of the Police Federation, HC 1163 21