Oral evidence: Voter engagement in the UK, HC 1059Thursday 8 May 2014
Oral evidence, 8 May 2014.
Witness
Simon Woolley, Director, Operation Black Vote, gave evidence.
Chair
Welcome, Simon. It is very good to see you again. Do you want to say anything to kick us off, or do you want to jump straight into questions?
Simon Woolley
I think I will, actually. This feels a little bit like déjà vu all over again, and I am not laughing. I was here on 4 November 2011, and it was some few months after the summer riots in which we were forced to look long and hard at why thousands of young people, a significant proportion of whom were black and minority ethnic but not by any means exclusively, were rampaging through the streets. I said then, as I sat in front of the Select Committee, that this was an opportune moment for us to see what our shared responsibility is that begins to give young people hope and a pathway to become positive, active citizens. I said then, and I will say it now, that feeling part of society, engaging in its civic activities, believing that these institutions belong to all of us, is a critical facet of a vibrant, dynamic, inclusive society. I said that when we started Operation Black Vote in 1996 we said a key tenet of all of that was about voter registration and making sure people are involved. The Select Committee took their notes and went away, and here we are again some years later discussing the same thing, the difference being, as my good friend Anthony and his colleague have highlighted, that the gap, emotionally, politically, physically, is in some parts getting wider. I don’t know what it is going to take for you men and women to say, “The buck stops here, and we will have a comprehensive programme to close these gaps and to make sure our democracy is vibrant”. I don’t know what it is going to take for you to grab the thorns and deal with it. I simply don’t know.
Chair
I think it is going to take some very specific proposals that witnesses like yourself, Simon, come forward with and that we can put to Government of all parties that is workable and practicable. That is our intention. We intend to do that, with your help.
Simon Woolley
Okay. I think it is more than that, as a matter of fact. Central to us getting from A to Z, and there is no quick fix—Anthony and others have highlighted that—is the political will. Let me try to give you an illustration about political will. Robert might remember that some years ago when people were talking about the mayoral election, we brought over a mayor of Missouri, Mayor Emanuel Cleaver, a wonderful man, African American. He was the first African American to be mayor of Missouri. He was talking about political will. At the time when he took over his institution was predominantly white in a town that he said was pretty much like London—one-third teeming, dynamic diversity. He said to his team, “You have got one year to ensure this institution is diverse, and if you don’t you are out of this building”. He came back and he said in less than a year his team from top to bottom was diverse. It is the driver that makes these changes happen. We know there are teeming priorities, but as Chris said before, and I think Robert mentioned it too, how important is democracy to us?
Robert Neill
Simon, I first came across you in 2000 at the mayoral elections. Over those years, what would you say are the key practical things that you would claim you have achieved with Operation Black Vote and what bits have you got wrong?
Simon Woolley
I am glad that you have given me the opportunity to talk about our successes, because bear in mind that we are poorer than church mice. In the last four years alone we have gone from 12 staff to three to try to undertake a national project, and work has got greater. Yet in spite of that, I am proud to sit in front of you and say that the only two black and minority ethnic Ministers in this Government come from Operation Black Vote: Sayeeda Warsi, who helped us launch in the north, and Helen Grant, who, as a young solicitor, came to us and said, “I want to be a representative. Can you help?” We twinned her with Oliver Letwin and Francis Maude and the rest is history. There are some 40 councillors that have come through the scheme. There are a dozen bag carriers here working in offices. That is on the political side. I am equally proud, Robert, that back in 1997 I managed to bump into—not bump into, almost chase after—Lord Derry Irvine when he was Lord Chancellor and, having cornered him in the corridor, I said I would like to try to transform the magistracy. He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “We will have a scheme where we will get young black men and women, Africans, Asians, Caribbeans. They will learn what it is about and they will find their way to sit on Her Majesty’s benches”. He said, “Good idea, young man” and we did it. Some years later now there are over 100 individuals who have gone from A to Z and who are now magistrates, changing the face of the magistracy, with an average age of 20 years younger than the average age of magistrates. What have we got wrong? We have not had enough support or enough resources to help transform our society. It is my fault that I cannot convince you and others to give me the support to do a better job. That is my fault.
Robert Neill
Do you think there are other things you do differently as well as you go forward, looking at your future plans? You have done some good work.
Simon Woolley
Let me just say this. When we set out, Robert, in 1996, bearing in mind that then 85% of those black and minority ethnic communities voting voted Labour, it would have been very easy for me and my team to say, “We are going to be like the African American project that joined in with the Democrats”. We chose not to; we chose to be vociferously non-partisan. As a result, if you want to talk about successes—I still do—I sat in front of subsequent Tory leaders and said, “The black and minority ethnic communities are conservative with a small ‘c’ but the reason they don’t vote for you is they think you are a bunch of racists and you have got no representation”. Over the years—and you have been aware of this specifically—the party have listened. I take great pride that in 2010 your party broke British political history by having the largest number of black and minority ethnic MPs ever in this institution, because we helped persuade them that it was good for them and good for democracy.
Robert Neill
And plans going forward?
Simon Woolley
Now they have stopped.
Robert Neill
Your plans, I mean.
Simon Woolley
No, I am talking about your plans.
Robert Neill
I am asking about your plans, Simon.
Simon Woolley
This is not so much about me, but we can talk about that because I have got plans too.
Robert Neill
Your organisation’s plans. You are the witness.
Simon Woolley
Okay. It is a kaleidoscope of solutions that will deal with this problem, and fundamentally it is not a quick fix. You will be aware that the Cabinet Office announced a voter registration campaign before Christmas. I think the budget was some £4 million over three months to solve a problem that has been going on for decades. Give me a break.
Robert Neill
Is that it?
Simon Woolley
What I am saying to you is it is not a quick fix.
Robert Neill
I get a sense of blame-passing.
Simon Woolley
No, I am not blame-passing. I am trying to get you to a place where you say, “What are the long-term solutions?” I am saying this is what it should not be. One of the solutions must be that we start this citizenship education programme in a comprehensive way at our primary schools. I recently went into my son’s school in Woodford. Actually, I took along Iain Duncan Smith, the local MP, but I went there before on my own. Eight-year-olds to 11-year-olds are so fantastically receptive. We talked about Nelson Mandela. I spoke to the kids beforehand and I said, “Iain Duncan Smith, who is your MP, has a budget of £179 billion. That is a lot of Lamborghinis”. They got that. They got that he had a lot of money to spend and one young child said to him, “Mr Duncan Smith, how are you going to spend that £170 billion?” The gap is that a lot of MPs go into schools, but then there is this monstrous gap. By the time people get to 15 we have lost them—16, 17, 18. It is incredibly difficult, once they have fallen off, to get them back on. Recently I went to Hackney College. These are students studying law, business, engineering. I asked them were they registered to vote, and they looked at me as though I had just sworn at them. “Registered to vote? Get involved in politics?” some of them said to me, “You’ve got to be joking”. After half an hour of me challenging them, unpacking their baggage, they all registered to vote, but I am forceful. In a situation where they don’t have that, getting them back is incredibly difficult.
Robert Neill
That is very helpful. I agree. My experience is not dissimilar to yours at all.
Simon Woolley
If I was in your position, if I had a position of power, I would run a campaign in which you would encourage parents to take their eight year-olds to go out and vote. I take my son. That is our thing. He has been doing it since he has been four years of age—he goes with his father to vote. Thereafter it becomes the norm. It is what you do. In the education process we should be telling these kids that you, ladies and gentlemen, are public servants and they are the political masters.
Chair
We could have a separate debate about where political power actually lies and whether it is in the House of Commons or in the Government in Whitehall, but that would divert us considerably. I think to a large extent we are very much on the same side and need to have a common agenda to make Government listen to us and to make those steps that you are thinking about, Simon. Those things have to be in our report as specifics, so we would get the Government on the spot and they would say yes or no to a request from Parliament.
Paul Flynn
It is interesting you mentioned that it was 4 November that you were here giving evidence before, because this is the day that we celebrate in my constituency as democracy day because it is the day when 20 chartists were shot. They were after the vote; that is what the demonstration was about. It is also significant that there was one Member of Parliament, who recently left us, Mr Patrick Mercer, who celebrated that day because it was his regiment that shot the chartists. Building democracy is a work in progress, and it does take a long time with many stumbles on the way. I am trying to get into practicalities, because, as the Chairman said, we are very much of the same enthusiasm that you have to try to build up the vote, but we hear of situations where in some areas there is nearly 100% registration. My constituency is 85%. It is a great shame that we are told that among black and other minority ethnic communities there are fewer people registered than there are in other communities. Why is this, and what can we do about it?
Simon Woolley
I am pleased that I listened to Anthony and his colleague beforehand, because they highlighted some of the fundamental reasons that we have to deal with. Yes, there are some technical difficulties, and I leave that to them. I am talking about the emotional alienation that I think is the largest problem here. When you consider that literally hundreds of thousands of black youths have been stopped and searched by the police, how does that translate in their view of authority? We are talking about hundreds of thousands of people going about their law-abiding business.
Paul Flynn
I agree with you entirely. I did a quote in the House the other day and the figures show that seven out of 1,000 people are likely to be stopped and searched in London if they are white, 15 out of 1,000 if they are Asian, and 45 out of 1,000 if they are black. It is an outrage. But on the question of the alienation of young people, do you think it is any worse among black and other ethnic minority communities than white? The white youth regard being registered or voting as naff. There is an alienation there.
Simon Woolley
Let’s unpick that a little bit, because it is really important to do that. There is a big distinction between apathy and a conscious opt-out. There are too many within the white community who are apathetic. They may have feelings of distrust—I think that was spoken about in the previous session—but there is a conscious kickback with African, Caribbean, Muslim young men and women to the system that in the media gives them a hard time, and when they are confronted with authorities it is often negative. So, until we deal with that massive mistrust that translates to all aspects of civic and democratic society, we are wider than not closable.
Paul Flynn
I have lived longer than you, and longer than anyone in this room, I think, with my age of 79, and I see a great improvement since I was a child, living in a very diverse community and it is very encouraging the way that things have happened since 1987 in this place. There does seem to be grounds for being very optimistic about the progress that is going on. Are the differences, if there are differences there in the percentage of vote in the black and ethnic minority communities, to do with practical things like many of them living in rented accommodation where people are unlikely to go? It certainly happens with others. What are the reasons?
Simon Woolley
I think those technical details are across the board. For the transient communities, it is an obstacle to register to vote if you have to send details off to the local authority to get them to verify it. But I come back to the fact that this emotional motivation for registering to vote is the biggest factor. If you are a graduate, if your parents have said to you, “Go to college, go to university, get your degree” and you are still twice as likely not to get a job, you have this feeling that things are not right. I say that is precisely why you should engage, but unless there is the preparatory stuff beforehand in which you see Parliament as a mechanism for change, then you reject the whole shebang.
Paul Flynn
The Hansard Society gave what appears to be some hard evidence that an audit that they did of political engagement suggested that 38% of BME respondents were very or fairly interested in politics compared to 50% or the white respondents. Do you think these figures are correct and representative, and why should that be?
Simon Woolley
If you go to a barber’s shop, if you go to the supermarket and you listen to the black women in the supermarket or in the hairdressers, they are talking politics all the time—about their school, about the housing, about mental health. The effects of politics are particularly dramatic to poorer people, to black and minority ethnic communities. We feel powerless, sadly, that we can make an effective change, and it is a self-fulfilling prophecy that we are not registered to vote. Look at the data just this week from the Policy Exchange on the change in demographics, the power of the black vote. It is for all of us to ensure that they have that power and then the changes that will affect all of us in a positive way will occur.
Paul Flynn
We have asked other witnesses about the apparent disparity between the unfavourable treatment of young people compared to rich elderly people like me who get unneeded benefits from the Government, which are sacrosanct when they are willing to cut benefits for young people. Do you think this is true of ethnic communities—the fact that they are not wielding their political muscle and they are being punished and neglected because of that?
Simon Woolley
I think you are absolutely right. I have lamented on the three main leaders that since 2010 David Cameron, the Prime Minister, and Ed Miliband have made no major speech about tackling persistent race inequality. Nick Clegg did. He made a speech for the Scarman Trust lecture, and he did talk about the fact that we need a nuanced discussion about how not all minorities are stuck but some are. He made that speech but nothing transpired thereafter. BME communities see that, but also the politicians react, as you said, to the elderly, the grey vote. Am I joining the grey vote now? I guess I am. We vote and we demand and we get listened to. I think that it is not enough for politicians to be cynical and say, “I am only going to listen to those who I know will vote”. I won’t tell you which side it was, but a politician looked me in the eyes and said, “Can you go and tell the black community thank you for not voting?” I said, “Why is that?” He said, “It means I don’t have to knock on their doors”.
Paul Flynn
I think politicians have higher ideals than just their own survival, and I am generally cynical about this, but I believe that politicians will want to improve society and have a fair deal for everybody. What do you think that we, as MPs, should be doing in practical terms?
Simon Woolley
Again, I come back to the long picture that you have to take with this. You have to roll out comprehensive civic education schemes that start in primary schools and continue. We are not talking about the idea that you talk politics once in a while. It has to be embedded. You have to have a plan to get those 6 million-plus back on the register, not a quick fix of “Here is some money. You will get paid on results”. It is the most difficult job we do. The most difficult job is getting those cynical non-voters and non-registerers to get on, because we have to make the political case. Once they are registered and they believe they can make a difference, then they will go out to vote. It is the registration—I am sure Anthony said this in his book—that is the problem. It is not so much the voting; it is getting them to that place. If I was the Prime Minister I would be calling in the faith leaders, every university head, the housing trusts and saying, “What assistance do you need to make sure all those within your constituencies, within your institutions, are registered to vote?” I would be calling in people like us, who the community trust, to say, “What do you need to get your people registered to vote?” There is Bite the Ballot and there are others that are simply not supported.
Fabian Hamilton
Apologies, Simon, for being late this morning. What does Operation Black Vote do to encourage people in black and minority ethnic communities to register to vote and to turn out at elections? The Cabinet Office, as you know, made £4.2 million available to help try to increase the levels of registration. Did Operation Black Vote bid for any of those funds, and did it make a difference?
Simon Woolley
Yes, we did bid for the funds and, given that we are the only organisation that specialises in this, it was disappointing that we were not successful. One of the reasons why we were not successful—and I think this is a real issue—is that on one part of the scoring I was aware that we would score zero. It said that if you can get 10,000 people to register to vote in this particular time you will get 10 points. If it is 6,000—and so on, on a sliding scale. I know how difficult it is to get young Somalis who feel part of the most alienated group in this country, and that was my target group, and I knew that I couldn’t promise the figures that would get me the funds to do the research. I could have lied. There is a big difference in registering to vote an alienated, often angry young Somali and registering a middle-class white kid who is apathetic, and yet in that judgment they were measured the same.
Fabian Hamilton
So the parameters were flawed?
Simon Woolley
In my opinion.
Fabian Hamilton
That is certainly some feedback I think we would be interested in. The witnesses I am told we have just heard from raised concern about the impact that the implementation of individual electoral registration could have on black and minority ethnic communities. Do you have any concerns about the new system?
Simon Woolley
It will have an impact. Again, we have been having this conversation for some time. I know Paul said earlier that in some constituencies there is 100% voter registration. Paul, with the greatest respect, that simply is not true. Of course it says that, but it does not account for the fact that you can have 10 people living in a house and if one person signs it, it is classed as 100%. In some part I am an advocate for individual voter registration, because you get a fuller picture, but it has to be with a monstrous education programme that tackles some of the inherent problems that my good friend Anthony spoke about of family heads signing or not signing individuals to that.
Fabian Hamilton
But isn’t that the problem—that at the moment, if you have, say, a lodger or two lodgers or students living in your house you are unlikely to register them? Under individual voter registration, they are more likely to register themselves, aren’t they, with the right encouragement and education?
Simon Woolley
Again, this is a balancing act. The reality is that if the preparatory work is not done, tens of thousands will fall off the register, and many of them will be black and minority ethnic communities, exacerbating a problem even further. Yes, there may be some of those that you describe, Fabian, but many more will fall off through other means, precisely because people don’t feel motivated to go through these hoops and over these hurdles to engage in civic society, and we have to recognise that.
Fabian Hamilton
Is it more about registration or about engagement? I represent the Chapeltown district of Leeds, which has a huge black and minority ethnic population—a majority, not a minority. I canvass a lot and do a lot of events in that area. What I find is exactly what you said, that people are prepared to discuss politics. They are happy to discuss politics and what is wrong in their community and what is wrong with society. Are they going to vote? Not necessarily.
Simon Woolley
You say that, Fabian, but I take a leaf out of Anthony Heath’s book. I tell any politician who will listen, because it is in my interest and in the communities’ interest, that what his book clearly shows is that when politicians do engage, when they go the extra mile and say, “I am listening and this is how it is going to translate”, people will register and they will vote. Why do you think Boris Johnson went to the ExCeL Centre some six months ago and spoke with 40,000 black church members? Given that 60% to 80% of those that would vote normally vote for Labour, he stood in front of them and said, “I’m your man” and, lo and behold, they responded. Genuine engagement from the political class is critical for civic engagement. Community empowerment from people like us, education in the schools are all the building blocks that will get us to a better place.
Fabian Hamilton
I think to some extent that in this Committee you are preaching to the converted, because every Member in this room will engage, does engage and is involved in their communities. I am absolutely sure of that.
Chair
Fabian, just before you go on, I need to disengage now. I hope Simon will not take this as any disrespect. I have to make a speech on the Floor of the House, Simon, at 11.30 am, so I have to go. Bob, would you mind taking over for the last 10 minutes? Keep these guys in order, would you?
Fabian Hamilton
We have got one Conservative in charge of three Labour members. That is fine.
Robert Neill
We are being very bipartisan.
Fabian Hamilton
Simon, you make a really important point there, and I think it is a foolish MP or councillor who does not engage with their communities and listen to what they have to say.
Simon Woolley
You say that you engage and that you are listening, but we are here today precisely because Parliament is not listening enough in putting in those building blocks that will close these voter registration gaps. What I am imploring, demanding, is that you show real leadership, and it is not just you as an individual, Fabian, or your colleagues around this Select Committee. It is the institution putting the resources into local authorities, community-based organisations, the education and the encouragement of our communities to civically and politically engage.
Fabian Hamilton
I could make a partisan point about how local authorities are being starved of funds at the moment and have many other priorities or competing priorities, but I won’t go there. Can I go now to your report about the impact that the BME vote—I hate this expression BME—the black and minority ethnic vote could have on the 2015 general election, which I think is a year away from yesterday? You say that the black vote could decide up to 168 marginal seats, but when you talk about the black vote, surely people in black communities, minority ethnic communities, have a variety of different political views. It is not a monolith. It is not a block vote.
Simon Woolley
I am glad you asked that, Fabian, because the other Policy Exchange document that came out said exactly the same thing. You won’t get any disagreement from me on that too, but there are two points to that. One is that I encourage political diversity among the black communities. That is good for a democracy. Why would we want all black communities just voting Labour? When that has happened in the past I believe the Labour party have taken the black vote for granted. When the Conservatives see that there are many more black people thinking about voting Conservative, they change their game. That is a fact, but here is the difference. Whether you are a middle manager looking for that executive position or a Somali unemployed or somewhere in the middle, throughout your life you will be subject to a race penalty. That is a golden thread throughout our communities. So for me to say in that black vote that we demand that the political class tackle persistent race inequality, we can all sign up to that from A to Z—African, Asian, Caribbean, Chinese, Gypsy and Traveller, the Turkish community, that in all our trajectories, those barriers that hold them back from fulfilling their potential are taken away. We can say that politically, Fabian.
Fabian Hamilton
Do you honestly think, though, that there is such a thing as a political class? We were just discussing the fact there is no monolithic black and minority ethnic vote, but I accept what you say about the strand of racism.
Simon Woolley
But let’s take, for example, the idea that we had a thread going through our political class that said, “We are going to tackle all these areas of race inequality because, first, we think it is right and, secondly, if we don’t we won’t get voted in”.
Fabian Hamilton
So you believe that changing the nature and profile of those who are elected to represent us is important.
Simon Woolley
I didn’t say that, you said it, but I agree that that is part of it. We want a representative democracy; that is critical. There should be nearly 100 black and minority ethnic MPs in this institution; there are 27. Representation is critical but I would argue that equally important, and perhaps more than representation, is policy.
Fabian Hamilton
I would not disagree with that, but would you say that—
Simon Woolley
Sorry to interrupt, Fabian. If policy does not recognise those persistent inequalities in education and jobs, you tell me why is it that young graduates and others are 50% unemployed in this country when the national average for young people is 19%. Why isn’t there a policy directive that begins to tackle that?
Fabian Hamilton
Do you think those disproportionately small number of black and minority ethnic Members of this House are part of the political class? Have they been subsumed into it? I ask that because when I look at the profile of the nine Labour councillors in my constituency—and I just point to the nine Labour councillors—I see a brilliant diversity. I see 50% male and female, black and minority ethnic Muslim councillors, young and older members too. There is a real diversity there.
Simon Woolley
I would say we have got to stage 2, possibly 3, out of 10 in regards to talented BME faces in high places. They still lack the confidence to speak about these issues in any forceful way, and that is because of the institution. They feel that they if they talk about race they will be seen as one-dimensional. I spoke about this in 2011. The media in particular will say, “We will only go to you when we are talking about race and not about the economy or the climate”. So they react in a way in which they can talk about everything under the sun but race. We need them to have the confidence to talk about both. The same dynamic occurred with women. When women first came into these institutions in large numbers, they felt that to be taken seriously they should shy away from talking about gender issues. Now there is a critical mass you see they are confident and that is why there is, quite rightly, a big agenda to tackle gender inequality.
Fabian Hamilton
I could point to one or two colleagues who will talk about race, who are from black and minority ethnic groups and are happy to talk about anything including race. I want to move on, because I want to ask you about registration rules. We have had previous witnesses who have said that marginalised groups will benefit greatly from more liberal registration rules, such as on-the-day registration. With that in mind, are there any other changes you would to see to the rules around electoral registration that would benefit black and minority ethnic communities?
Simon Woolley
I am encouraged that the Electoral Commission and the Government will soon have online voter registration. Technology now is such that we ought to be able to register with our mobile phones. Once the data is there in a safe place, we ought to be able to swipe it and you are registered to vote. Surely it is not beyond the means of us to get that to happen.
Chris Ruane
Can I come in specifically on that point? I am going to direct a note to Graham that your suggestion of involving the churches and institutions should be a recommendation we put forward. The question is, will online registration, which starts in June, allow the black churches to have it at the back of the church, “Go and register now. It is your civic duty and your religious duty”? Can you see greater involvement in registration from the BME communities from June onwards?
Simon Woolley
I think it is going to be mixed. My interaction with the churches has been extremely positive, but many of them are tending to shy away from politics. Graham said he saw me on the TV yesterday and I was saying that I am encouraged now that the pastors are saying it is good to pray but it is also good to vote. But still not enough are, and that is also with the imams in the mosques, and in gurdwaras. There are many not going to faith. Chris, we have to have a comprehensive programme. I heard you before talking about the American experience, and in the American experience the churches have been fundamental in getting African Americans. In fact, you cannot be a prominent politician unless you go through the churches. The churches have been instrumental. You also highlighted the fact that in America there is far too much politics in voter registration that sees people off the register. You put the question to Anthony Heath: do you think that occurs here? My own view is that I don’t think the large numbers is a wilful act of seeking to marginalise or alienate BME communities, but I do feel there is a lack of political will by this institution to effectively address the problem.
Fabian Hamilton
My final question, Simon, is what else do you think needs to happen in order to improve levels of registration and participation among BME groups? I know you have already touched on quite a bit of that, but is there anything else on top of what you have already said?
Simon Woolley
Your starting point when you write this document, the first paragraph must be that we cannot accept that millions of people are disenfranchised from our system if we are to be proud of it. I think your statement ought to be that this is not a wish-list, this is a demand that we seek to happen: comprehensive civic education, starting from primary school, going right the way up to college and, if need be, university; comprehensive programmes; civic programmes. If you talk about institutions to 11 year-olds, it is boring. When we did have some resources we were going into schools and talking about the politics of power, where power lies, how to affect it. We were talking about power in the fashion industry. When I see these young kids wearing their jeans hanging from their behinds, the big fashion industries changed their design to fit that need. Look, that is power. The music industry is powerful. So you can have these conversations about power to young people and then it is no longer a million miles to look at the civic institutions for change. The understanding of the kaleidoscope of where power might be is better understood, and these institutions are seen as one part of that.
Fabian Hamilton
When I was at school we studied civics—I don’t know how many Members in this room studied civics—and that was about those issues you are talking about. But like all my colleagues, I am sure, I go to schools where there are 10 and 11 years-olds, and sometimes much younger children, on the school council who want to interview their local MP and talk about those issues. At the last school I went to they wanted to talk about toilet twinning, which when I was at school would have induced laughter and mirth, but it was very serious and these kids were seriously looking at twinning their toilets with getting decent sanitation in parts of Africa and Asia that don’t have that sanitation. That is politics. They wanted to know what I was going to do about it. We are scared of that word “politics”, and yet it is discussed every day.
Simon Woolley
If the politics are coming from grey men and women it is not going to be cool, but there are many out there that could make it much more engaging. We have to give them the platform and the resources to do that and we would all benefit from it. We are no longer in the situation where we are trying to drag millions back because we had forgotten about them about in the past.
Mark Durkan
Apologies, Simon, because I had to leave for another event and come back in. I had the benefit just two weeks ago today of having Congressman John Lewis in my constituency, one of the surviving big six of the American civil rights movement, and he was making points that chime with exactly some of what I have heard you say about the role of the churches and others in building up the layers of emancipation beyond the achievement of civil rights itself. But he also was making the observation that there was a danger at times that people concentrated on focusing on actions where there were particular ethnic profiles, where cities were seen as having significant black populations. Often the marginalisation of those where there was a smaller community was neglected. People were content enough to see things in certain cities—that there would be black mayors in certain cities—but there was a hangover marginalisation still in other places and that needed to be tackled as well.
Simon Woolley
I think you are right, Mark. I know that all the leaders would go down to Brixton to the big churches, Boris Johnson to ExCel—that is fine and it gets the headlines, but you have to go to Bournemouth, Plymouth or some of the regions up north where a lot of people feel pretty isolated, and recognise that they should be listened to and feel part of the project, part of our society. I was here in 2011 and I am here today. I don’t want to be here in three or four years’ time saying the same thing. You juggle with a lot of things but I would argue it would be a great legacy from this Committee, from you as individuals, if you set in motion a fundamental programme that could dramatically close these gaps—on your watch, on your brief, that you did that. Of all your work in politics, I hope you would say, “That is the thing I am most proud of”.
Robert Neill
Simon, thank you very much for the evidence. I think that is very useful and particularly thank you for the specifics, which I think we can take on board in the report. It is immensely helpful, and I know all of us are very pleased to see you again, as always. Thanks to our other witnesses as well. Thank you very much, everyone. Voter engagement in the UK, HC 1059