Oral evidence: International Representation and Promotion of Wales by UK bodies, HC 1013

Oral evidence, 13 May 2014.

Witnesses

Simon Gibson OBE, Director, and Ian Edwards, Chief Operating Officer, Celtic Manor Resort, gave evidence.

Chair

Mr Gibson, it is very nice to welcome you back here. Mr Edwards, I do not think we have met before, but thank you for coming along. I ask Jessica Morden to start the questions with something that will be close to your hearts.

Simon Gibson

Thank you.

Jessica Morden

I know there are more general questions coming, but we want to kick off with the NATO summit. Congratulations on being chosen to host the NATO summit in a few short months—it is approaching faster and faster. Can you talk a bit about how it happened—how you secured the event?

Ian Edwards

First and foremost, it is a hugely exciting win not just for Celtic Manor but for Wales as a whole—and also for Newport. Simon has said, “Keep it brief,” but it is quite exciting, so it is hard to do that. The bid was won through our relationship with the FCO. We have had a huge and long relationship with the FCO over many years. We had the 2005 conference, which it brought to Celtic Manor in Newport. We were close to winning the G8 summit—it was between us and Ireland, but Ireland just edged us on that. Then the big event came. We had many site visits from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. We also had many visits from NATO itself, with people coming over to see how we could host the event. The sales team at Celtic Manor put the bid together and said how we could do it. We looked back on what we had done successfully previously. The Ryder cup was a prime example. If we hosted 40,000 people a day in and out of south Wales, we can definitely host a NATO conference. The legacy of the Ryder cup certainly helped us to win the NATO conference.

Jessica Morden

Obviously, it is an FCO event, but there will be involvement from the Welsh Government and local councils as well. How does that all work? How are the arrangements coming together?

Ian Edwards

It is very complicated. The way in which decisions are made is very complicated because there are so many people involved; there is no one lead on the whole event. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is putting the event on but it is NATO’s event, so NATO is really the one that pulls the strings. We are all peripheral. Celtic Manor, Newport city council and the Welsh Government are all waiting for the go-ahead saying, “Yes, this is what you can do.” We are all asking questions. Sub-committees have been formed and are ready to pounce when we get the okay in terms of “This is what you can do and when you can do it.” We need to get that okay soon so that we can act. On 28 May there will be 100 days to go until the NATO summit, so we have to have all of our ducks lined up and ready to go.

Simon Gibson

Let us understand—this event is twice the size of the Ryder cup in economic impact. In Chicago, where it was held last, the economic impact post the event was measured at $120 million. Thousands of journalists will come to south Wales; we estimate that there will probably be five times the number of journalists who were at the Ryder cup. If you saw the media village and tent at the Ryder cup, there were 900 workstation positions, but we are talking about having to produce facilities for thousands. It is unprecedented and a massive opportunity. Of course, there are 60 world leaders, so it is not only a big event for Wales but a huge event for the UK; I understand that it is the largest political gathering for 30 years. It is easy to get beguiled by the fact that the US President will arrive; I think it is the first time that a serving US President will ever have come to our country. My point is that there will be 60 world leaders. Air Force One will arrive in Cardiff and there will be a massive ruck around him. Let us think about the 59 other world leaders on the list. Some of those represent some of the fastest-growing economies in the world; perhaps we can talk about that when we talk about brands. Wales needs to be very selective about whom we really go after in that list of 59 underneath the President. We must really grab the opportunity to create friendships and associations.

Jessica Morden

How else, practically, should we be grasping that huge opportunity to promote Wales?

Ian Edwards

Let us look at Newport first and then at Wales. I am very passionate about Newport because it is on our doorstep.

Jessica Morden

Good answer.

Ian Edwards

I am conscious that the legacy of the Ryder cup is not seen across the whole of Wales. It is seen in golf courses, but beyond that the view was, “It was painful for me to get my children to school because of the Ryder cup.” We do not want that. There are three key opportunities for Newport. As Simon said, there will be 60 world leaders. One will be almost untouchable, but there are 59 others. You could put on an outreach programme into Newport. We need to push the name and brand of the Newport university. How great would it be if we got one of those world leaders to talk at the university on the world economy and how they are bringing their country through the crisis we are in at the moment? How great would it be if we got an outreach programme into the schools of Newport? It is about not just the negative side in terms of transport and how it is going to block my way to work, but how great it was that we had this world leader at the university and these people come into our schools. We—Newport—are spending £250 million on regenerating the city. We want people to know that so that we can bring them into our city. Cardiff is already on the world map and is a great place to be. We will talk about the brand of Wales shortly. We can be pushing that with all of the outreach programmes, but if we do not do it now and do not line everything up, we will miss that opportunity—it will have come and gone.

Simon Gibson

Let us understand that the Celtic Manor will be locked down for two days. There may be ideas of trying to get people in and out of the Celtic Manor for events during the NATO summit, but that is not going to happen—the poor security guys really have their work cut out. We should be extending invitations to these world leaders either to visit us before the summit or to stick around afterwards. There was one other party that absolutely played a blinder in our winning the bid—Gwent police. There were 60 starters in the competition; we ended up with three competitors. The two competitors against us were major English cities—significant, well-organised big cities. At the end of the day, we kind of got the nod that we were going to get it, but it was dependent on the police delivering a confident pitch that they were up to the task of doing it. Gwent police did that. We briefed them well and they went to Downing Street and gave a really good presentation. Without their help, we would not have got the event.

Ian Edwards

The great thing from that was that they wanted the business. They were looking at it commercially as well—they wanted to win this business for Wales. Again, that is the legacy of the Ryder cup. They did a great job of policing the Ryder cup. They had that experience, so it was a perfect opportunity to do the NATO event.

Glyn Davies

What about capacity for people to stay? If there is an international rugby match in Cardiff, you cannot get a hotel room. Where on earth are all these people going to be staying? I know there are plans for a couple of new hotels in Cardiff, but that is a pinprick.

Simon Gibson

The catchment area encompasses pretty much Swindon to Swansea. As you know, we have plans to build a new convention centre at the Celtic Manor. I know people will look at it and say, “It is a Celtic Manor gig,” but think about it. With our expansion plans, we can accommodate about 600 people. The convention centre will accommodate 4,000. That means that every time we have a convention we will be decanting more than 3,000 people into the hinterland. I hope that when confidence levels go up with regard to the certainty of the convention centre, hoteliers will invest in new buildings and those who have hotels will up their game; let’s face it, some of them are a little tired and need to be improved. It is a good opportunity for people with B and Bs and smaller hotels—the restaurant hoteliers who exist in Monmouthshire—to enlarge their product, too. The NATO world summit and the convention centre should be economic engines for the entire region.

Ian Edwards

There are 8,000 bedrooms along the strip between Chepstow and Cardiff.

Glyn Davies

So the capacity is there. There is another thing that interests me. Years ago, I was a member of the WDA; you may have been as well. Because it was a straightforward quango looking for commercial opportunity, if an event like this was coming along, we would have targeted virtually the whole operation at taking advantage of NATO coming in; there would have been a complete change of direction for 12 months beforehand. Is there the capacity to do that sort of focus in the Welsh Government, as well as the Foreign Office? Is there the capacity to do that sort of attack on probably the biggest market we have ever had?

Ian Edwards

We heard earlier that Visit Wales is under new leadership, is going in a new direction and is still finding its feet at the moment. The NATO event is a different event because it is organised by NATO. Manon has been there for only a few months, but once she has brought her team together, we have a marketing director and we have pulled everything together, we will have the right team to move things forward. At the moment, we are in our infancy. However, we will absolutely be ready for NATO. We have to be—it is not an option. The Welsh Government are working hard, but we are still waiting for instruction from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Jonathan Edwards

Glyn has already touched on this to some extent. You have talked about the press corps, and there will be a huge media profile. If I am somebody living in the United States and am watching the news, how will I know that this summit is being held in Wales? Every time I drive back on the M4, go past the resort and see that giant Welsh flag, it fills me with pride. If I am watching the news in the States, how will I know that the summit is in Wales? Who is responsible for pulling that together?

Simon Gibson

A combination of all of the different agencies. We cannot underestimate the challenge that the security services and the police have in making sure that they deliver a safe summit, so there are some restrictions. Personally, I would have liked some events to take place at places such as Tredegar House, but it is not really suitable. The iconography in the event organisers’ minds with regard to Wales is not castles, dragons, coal miners and ladies with wide-brimmed hats—it is a modern, iconic, contemporary nation. The images that the world will see of Wales will be of a modern Wales—the Royal Welsh college of music and drama, the Senedd and the bay. We will not revert to the old, classic, stereotypical images that are pumped out about the country. That probably leads us to the question of the brand.

Chair

Shall we go to that now? We can then come back to Nia’s question on the Ryder cup. I was going to ask about the brand, but you have led me towards it, Simon. Do you want to tell us more about that and, perhaps, the contradiction between what some people might feel is appropriate in terms of tourism and what might be appropriate in terms of attracting inward investment?

Simon Gibson

Let us step back for just a minute and talk about brand. You establish brand through consistency—by not changing it every five minutes. A brand needs to stick around. With 3 million people and a limited budget, we are not a country that can afford two brands. What I mean by that is a brand for tourism and a brand for the economy—there should be one brand for Wales. It should be projected everywhere and we should stick with it. It needs to reflect something new. Over the weekend, I was sitting and wondering what I would do if I were King of Wales. I would introduce a brand like “Wales—a breath of fresh air,” because it plays to two of our greatest strengths: the environment, its beauty and its heritage; and our people. It works in terms of economics as well. You would say, “Come to Wales. You will get a loyal work force, which is a breath of fresh air.” It is a small country with its own autonomous decision-making processes, to a large extent. We have a lot of advantages from being a smaller nation, which is a breath of fresh air. I remember having a meeting with Henry Engelhardt and David Stevens when they came years ago to establish Admiral in Wales. They had grants from everybody. As you will remember, I had come back from Canada to set up Ubiquity. They said to me, “Why did you do that?” I said, “Because of the quality of the work force—well-educated people who are extremely loyal.” At Ubiquity, we had 200 people in the work force, and only one person left in 10 years. By anyone’s reckoning, that is loyalty. The way in which the Welsh economy works is a breath of fresh air. So is the environment, which is just stunning. I do not want to get the Chairman too big headed, but I live in Monmouth, which has been given the accolade of the third best place in Britain to live. Many Welsh towns were in the top 100. Not only do we live in a place people want to visit; increasingly, we are living in a place where people want to live. That is a business and economic opportunity to bring people here. I can tell you now that the biggest decision-maker in an inward investment is the wife of the chief executive. If we want to up our game, we need to have a message that works for tourists but also works for people who want to invest in, and make a longer term commitment to, the country. The brand is really important. We need to get our act together and to do it quickly.

Chair

Can that work with the tourism sector as well?

Simon Gibson

It is like anything else—you throw something into the pot and see whether it sticks. One of the things that we used in the NATO bid process was “Wales—we deliver” because it was really important that they understood that if they gave us this massive event we would deliver. The whole of our pitch was around a contemporary, exciting new country that delivered.

Ian Edwards

We had proof of that through the Ryder cup, which went away saying that it was the best Ryder cup that had ever been organised. That was done through the infrastructure, the organisation and everything else that went on around it. I agree with Simon that it is a breath of fresh air and that we deliver. We have been speaking about whether it can cover both brands and talking about tourism. One thing that has frustrated me so far is that we have not spoken about business tourism. It spends three times the amount leisure tourism spends, but we have not even touched on it. We talk about how Ireland does it and how Edinburgh does it. Look at Edinburgh. Since Edinburgh international convention centre has been open, it has brought in excess of £500 million into the economy. I do not know whether you have been to Glasgow, but I was there when we started building the convention centre there. I went back last week, and it has acted as a catalyst; what has grown around the Glasgow convention centre is incredible. The convention centres in Dublin and Belfast are putting those cities on the map. That is what is making the difference between Wales, Scotland and Ireland, because business tourism is hugely important. Once you get them there for an international conference, they will come back. The international market will start travelling to Wales. Where is our convention centre in Wales? It does not exist. Unfortunately—or fortunately—Celtic Manor is the biggest convention centre in the area. Someone said that we do not talk about quality, but to me quality is hugely important. It does not matter whether it is a quality five-star hotel—it can be a quality bed and breakfast or a quality caravan park—but quality is important. If you go away on holiday, no matter where you are staying or what your budget is, you want a quality experience: that is important. I think we are missing the point on business tourism.

Nia Griffith

You are coming on to some of the areas I want to pick up. Do you feel that there were missed opportunities with the Ryder cup? What should be done better now with the NATO summit? Would you like to expand a bit on the issue of business tourism and how we could roll that out?

Simon Gibson

Locally, ironically, we did not benefit as much as we should have from the Ryder cup. That is particularly true of the city of Newport; for whatever reason, it never really came together. However, let us not underestimate the effect the Ryder cup had on the international profile of Wales. That is demonstrated by international travel. When Terry or I go to places in the world such as India, China and Latin America, people say, “How is the Celtic Manor, Terry? How is Wales doing?” Before that, in many of those countries people thought Wales was spelled with an h and it swam in the sea. They had no conception that Wales was a country and identity all by itself. The Ryder cup did achieve that for us internationally and has raised the profile, but whether we have followed up on it—and how we follow up on it—on an international basis is another question. I do not know whether we are going to talk about UKTI and our international presence, but in the middle of the 20th century 70% of the world’s GDP existed within the G7. By the middle of this century 70% of global GDP will be outside the G7. I have the top 10; I wrote it down outside. According to Goldman Sachs and its economists, the top 10 in 2015 looks like this: China, the US, India, Brazil, Russia, Indonesia, Mexico, the United Kingdom, Turkey and Japan. That is a big change. Are we focusing on those countries? Indonesia has 300 million people—as many people live in Indonesia as live in the United States of America. My bet would be that if we are going to take a punt, to spend some money and to build a brand, we should build it in those economies, because of the spending power and sheer populations of those places. There are more people living in Mexico City than in the whole of Canada. These are really interesting times, with a big change. It means that we need to change our marketing strategy, not keep flogging the same old thing and wondering why we are not getting the results.

Ian Edwards

Simon is absolutely right—on an international stage, for golfing, Wales did well from the Ryder cup. Could we have done better? Absolutely. That is what we have to do—to learn the lessons from the Ryder cup and to make sure that we do not make the same mistakes with NATO. We must talk about the positives and make sure that they happen through outreach programmes, so that it is not seen just as a negative—that it took me half an hour more to get to school or an hour and a half more to get to work. We can definitely learn lessons from that. The Welsh Government know that, we know that from the Celtic Manor’s point of view and Visit Wales knows that. We just have to make it happen now.

Guto Bebb

Going back to the discussion with the previous panel, what sort of relationship do you as an organisation working on an international basis have with VisitBritain, through your relationship with Visit Wales?

Ian Edwards

To be honest, the relationship with VisitBritain is not fantastic.

Guto Bebb

It is not fantastic?

Ian Edwards

It is not fantastic.

Guto Bebb

Is there a reason for that?

Ian Edwards

We became part of the GREAT campaign only because of the NATO summit. Before that, it did not exist. What Wales got out of the GREAT campaign was minute. Even though there was a huge budget, Wales was not in the ballpark.

Guto Bebb

Why is that? How can we influence that to greater effect?

Ian Edwards

Visit Wales can influence that and needs to do so. We have already said that the whole of Visit Wales is now under new leadership and that it will take time to get it to where we want it to be. There are businesses that cannot afford to take that time—we need to make those changes now. Going back to business tourism, there is a prime example of what VisitBritain could do in the international market. There are huge events that happen in Europe, such as EIBTM in Barcelona and the international travel market in Frankfurt. We—Wales—have no representation there. These are international markets with 15,000 buyers who want to bring international events into the UK, but we have no presence there. VisitBritain will have a presence, but Wales has no presence within that VisitBritain stand; we do not even have a stand of our own. If you go to a conference show in London, visit Yorkshire has a bigger stand than Visit Wales, which is ridiculous. We are not in that league by any stretch of the imagination.

Guto Bebb

Is the reason for that financial?

Ian Edwards

Absolutely.

Guto Bebb

Is that a reduction in spending on tourism in the Welsh context?

Ian Edwards

Yes—and they need that. Visit Wales also needs to up its game when we do attend these shows. You have to be a salesperson. You cannot just sit there and hope that people will come and visit your stand—you have to be there, pushing for that business. I have had that conversation with Visit Wales in terms of the people we send and how they go about their business when they are there. There are lots of lessons to be learned going forward on that.

Jonathan Edwards

Both Governments are making the case that Welsh performance on inward investment has increased in recent years. Do you agree with their assessment?

Ian Edwards

Welsh performance has increased?

Jonathan Edwards

In terms of attracting inward investment.

Simon Gibson

If they say that is the case, who am I to say that it is not? An interesting exercise would be to count in and count out, because we have people leave as much as we have people come in. I experienced the WDA, which did some good work and some not-so-good things. One of the things I always struggle with is the concept of paying people to come to Wales. My passion would be around creating fantastic Welsh companies, some of which will be acquired by overseas companies. When that happens, they tend to stick, because the overseas companies are buying intellectual property, not just property. You end up with a really interesting economy where you have foreign inward investors and indigenous companies as well. A case in point is our campus in Canada. We now have 3.5 million square feet on the campus. There is a blend of companies. Some are companies we have grown—there are now 101 companies that we have created. However, probably half of those 101 companies have been sold. You can say, “It is a shame that they were sold,” but it is not. Those companies that have been acquired have been acquired by Ericsson, Alcatel, Huawei, Dell—the list goes on. I look at the years of the WDA and think, “What high-tech company did the WDA ever bring to Wales?” It all goes quiet—we did not get an Apple, a Microsoft or anything else. If I take you around our campus in Ottawa, all of the world’s great brands are there. They did not come in under a grant to put up a building and employ people to manufacture things—they came into an economy where they purchased intellectual property, and they are still there. From what I understand, the most profitable division of Alcatel is the one that it purchased in Ottawa. It is still there—it has grown and has not shrunk. The rest of Alcatel seems to be going through shrinkage everywhere, but that presence has continued. I do not go with the traditional approach of “Let’s count the score by how many people we can give money to so that they come to our country.” If we have money to give, let us spend it on our own indigenous talent and population and create wealth in that way. We will create wealth either way—either we will create companies ourselves that become headquartered in Wales or we will create companies that other people acquire. Either way, Wales wins.

Jonathan Edwards

What dealings have you had with UKTI? What is your general impression of how it helps to promote the Welsh economy?

Simon Gibson

I can see a functioning relationship between the Welsh Government and UKTI—that works. What I do not see is UKTI really impacting on Welsh companies. There are some instances that have happened to me personally where I have felt a little uncomfortable with what I witnessed. A series of sovereign funds have come into the UK. The last one I am aware of was the Emirati Government, with £13 billion. They go out and want to invest in public projects. As soon as I heard about this, I was up to London like a shot. I took some officials from the Welsh Government with me. When we walked into the room, the guy had a folder. I have been around long enough to realise that that was the deal book, so we were entering the fray when the deal book was done. That is not the time to be entering the fray, is it? You want to be there when the deal book is being put together. I do not think we are always at the front of the queue at UKTI when it comes to opportunities. If there is an opportunity with a sovereign fund, whether it is the Chinese or the Emirati Government, it is for billions. An opportunity like that might have paid for the M4 relief road, the metro or a regeneration project connecting Cardiff airport to the city. It could have done all sorts of projects of a large nature, but if we are at the back of the queue all the time we will lose. I understand that there was an agreement that a UKTI secondee would be seconded to the Welsh Government. I think the offer was made 15 months ago, but I am not sure that that person is here yet. We need to start pushing stuff like that. A squeaky wheel gets the most oil—we need to start squeaking and getting those things in place. I would be more impressed if the UKTI opened an office in Wales.

Chair

You have mentioned before the issue of having planning-ready projects to attract sovereign funds.

Simon Gibson

One of the civil servants here in London could see that I was a bit agitated in the meeting about the fact that we had been invited so late, so he said, “If I did invite you and there was an opportunity to invest—bearing in mind that this overseas Government want to invest next year—what would you have?” That did make me think. We need to have pre-packed opportunities, as Manchester clearly did. Manchester went there with the planning in place, projects, contractors, investment returns—the whole pack. I understand that they went into the room with three of those, saying, “How about this one? If you don’t like it, how about this one? By the way—if you sign there, we start work tomorrow.” Let’s face it—I do not think we could do that right now in the economy, as those projects have not been scoped and pre-packed. There is an example of how we could work better with UKTI. If I compare my experiences in Britain with those in Canada, the Canadian Government are far more proactive in giving their overseas assets over to the private sector. If you go to a country, the Canadian embassy is very keen to open its doors. The ambassador is very much available to host little trade shows or dinners—whatever he needs to do to help companies to secure business in those countries. I do not get a sense that Welsh companies are involved in a process like that.

Mrs James

In the evidence that you have given so far, you have touched on the role of the Welsh Government. I am interested in hearing a bit more about that and about the role of the Wales Office. We have these two entities. The Secretary of State for Wales travels a great deal overseas; he has been on various trade missions and so on. Do you think that the Wales Office and the Welsh Government are working well enough in partnership? Are we sufficiently fleet of foot? I am picking up that we could be a bit sharper. I am thinking about Swansea university here. I remember going to a meeting where they told me all about their university expansion plans. I thought, “This is great, but how are they going to pull it off?” By golly, they have done it. It is a really good exemplar.

Ian Edwards

There are many aspects. For example, the Welsh Government are doing what they can to move the NATO event forward and to make the most of it. So is the Wales Office, with a voice on how they can push NATO. We are keen to push forward the convention centre, with the help of the Welsh Government, but it is very slow. There is no entity in Cardiff that sells conference business in Wales—it does not exist. Cardiff & Co used to push conference business, with the help of the Welsh Government, but no one pushes that now. No one in the whole of Wales is trying to sell to that conference market. As I said earlier, it produces three times the spend of a normal leisure guest, but we do not have anyone in the Welsh Government, the Welsh Assembly or anywhere else trying to push that market. Looking at the international market, the Welsh Government bought Cardiff airport to try to bring lines into Wales. At the moment it is more viable for us to have an alliance with Bristol airport to put on an international campaign because there are more routes coming into Bristol than into Cardiff. How shameful is that? We’ve just said that, when you enter Wales, you see the flag at the Celtic Manor and are coming home, but at the moment we are aligning ourselves more to Bristol than to Cardiff. There is definitely more to be done on that front to bring in the international market and more that the Welsh Government could do to make a difference.

Simon Gibson

I will address your question in terms of organisational structure. You would hope that the Wales Office would be pushing federal issues here on behalf of Wales. The UKTI issue could be solved by an aggressive Wales Office pushing harder to do that. We do not need a larger public sector in Wales, do we? It is big enough as it is. It has all of the resources that it needs in terms of manpower—what we need is velocity. Everything just takes too long. Decisions take too long. There is a reluctance to make a decision—a fear of making a decision. We need to cut it out, to be decisive, to make some decisions and to crack on with it.

Ian Edwards

That is the crucial part.

Simon Gibson

We are 100 days away from the biggest event that Wales will ever host, certainly in my lifetime. We should be over this like a rash and running at 100 miles an hour; anything less than that in terms of performance should not be tolerated.

Mrs James

Mr Edwards, that links up with one of your earlier comments about trade promotion overseas. Where do you see this lack of velocity? Is it with the civil servants? Is it further down the line? Have you identified where the sticking point is?

Simon Gibson

It is about the capacity to sign off on decisions.

Ian Edwards

It is. I will give you an example of that. We went to a golf show in Europe and were entertaining 20 to 25 international golf tour operators. You should bear in mind that golf is only a very small element of our business—probably the smallest part of our business. We were at this trade show in Europe and wanted to entertain 25 tour operators who would bring in-bound guests into Wales—not to Celtic Manor, but to the whole of Wales. We said to the Welsh Government, “We are doing this. Would you like to come along and host it with us? It is not about giving us any cash for it—you are talking about £500 to entertain a group of people who can bring business to you.” It took until an hour before that dinner for them to get the okay to say that they could come and host a drinks reception. That is ridiculous. The Welsh Government got nothing out of that, because they got no branding out of it. It was all about our invite: “Celtic Manor—come and join us for dinner.” An hour before that, they got the go-ahead to come.

Simon Gibson

There is an issue that is not unique to the public sector—it exists in the private sector as well. In fact, the bigger a corporation is, the more it is being afflicted with this ailment; I talk about this in terms of innovation as well. If you went to large companies 10 or 20 years ago, they pumped out product. If you go to large companies today, many of them are struggling to get products out of the door. The reason for it is threefold. In the last decade, there has been a massive increase in three things: governance, risk management and compliance. We all know why they are there—you need only to look at the banks to understand why they were put in place. None the less, all of those three things are enemies of innovation, because innovation is uncertain, by its very nature. Innovation in branding, strategy and product development is currently being crushed by governance, risk management and compliance. You can see it at its most prevalent in government. It is a very scary place for a civil servant to make a decision when he knows that he might be audited four times for that decision—not just by his own auditors but by another Government’s auditors or European auditors. It is a very complicated environment that is riddled with those three things.

Jonathan Edwards

You seem to be indicating that there is a lack of urgency in Welsh politics in relation to the summit, with fewer than 100 days to go. Who do you think should be leading this from the front? The Prime Minister? The First Minister?

Simon Gibson

Let me qualify that. I do not believe there is a lack of urgency politically. I sense that there is a political desire for these things to push forward—it is the machine that lies underneath that entity that is causing the latency. This is the Prime Minister’s gig, effectively, through the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and through NATO. Ian can talk to it, but the Prime Minister is going to hold a conference after the event in Wales to check how we have benefited from hosting the NATO world summit. Everyone is interested in making a success of it, but someone has to oil the mechanism a little. It is not just the NATO world summit, is it? It is a whole bunch of issues where we need to inject velocity into the Government and the civil service.

Jonathan Edwards

With 100 days to go, who are you looking to to drive that urgency to make sure that you maximise the summit’s potential? Should it be the First Minister or the Prime Minister?

Simon Gibson

It is a double-act between the Prime Minister and the First Minister.

Ian Edwards

The First Minister has to say to the Prime Minister, “Look, we have 100 days to go. We have nothing nailed down in terms of outreach programmes and how we are going to benefit from this, so who is going to make this decision?” That is where it has to come from.

Nia Griffith

A lot of what you have said to us has been really inspiring. Do you think we have the right sort of people at the right sort of level of skill? Do we need to upskill? Do we need an injection of entrepreneurship? Is there something lacking?

Simon Gibson

Yes, let’s shoot the lawyers—no, you are not supposed to minute that! The payroll is big enough, so you cannot tell me that there is not enough money in the system to hire the right people to do the job. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on whether those people are the right people for the job.

Chair

It would not be inappropriate at all—feel free.

Glyn Davies

Go and shoot the lawyers.

Simon Gibson

That is not the thing to say in Parliament, is it? More of a demanding entrepreneurial spirit would help.

Nia Griffith

Should we be bringing in people or having a bit more cross-fertilisation?

Simon Gibson

It is interesting that seconding people does not always work either. I have seen that with people who were quite creative and full of vigour and passion. I was speaking to one recently. On his first day, when he put his bike in the bike rack someone said to him, “Leave your spirit with your bike.”

Glyn Davies

I have a philosophical question, as I think you are in quite a philosophical mood on occasions—you can drift off into velocity a little here. Do you think there is a real issue—it is a modern issue—about the fear of an error and the negative publicity that goes with the slightest little error? People are crucified, so they are petrified of taking any kind of decision. I have been around for a long time in the public sector. There used to be a “can do” attitude, particularly in Wales. You would take the odd risk, and it would not always come off. Today, it seems to me that everyone is absolutely petrified of taking a decision that might have a 1% chance of not working. Until you change that whole attitude and approach to failure, it will be tough.

Ian Edwards

You are absolutely right. My example of £100 of spend for drinks to entertain journalists and tour operators to bring business to Wales is ridiculous. I do not want to sit here singing the praises of the Celtic Manor, but at the Celtic Manor we are allowed to be entrepreneurs. We do not need to be fearful of the decisions that we make. During the biggest recession the world has ever seen, in five years our occupancy has gone from 48% to 89%. That is because we make important decisions, look at our marketplace and attract people to the Celtic Manor, Newport and south Wales for something different.

Simon Gibson

Our chairman’s very first business—the lawnmowers—failed; Mitel was Mike and Terry’s Lawnmowers. If he had been a public servant, he would probably have been black marked for the rest of his career. In fact, he has gone on to be a fabulously successful person. We have done 101 start-ups and have lost six. Those six hurt, but you crack on. In a civil service career, I am not sure that you are allowed to have one of those, are you?

Ian Edwards

You see civil servants are fearful. If you ask, “Can we do this? Can you do that?” they cannot make that decision. By the time they have made the decision, you have missed it.

Glyn Davies

It is not only the civil service, is it? It affects the private sector as well, largely because of the disconnect we now have among the public between what is actually happening and the appetite for devouring people who have made the slightest mistake.

Ian Edwards

Yes.

Chair

We have reached the end of this. It has been absolutely fascinating to hear from everyone this morning. I thank you and our other witnesses, who are still here, and bring the meeting to a close. International Representation and Promotion of Wales by UK bodies, HC 1206 3