Oral evidence: Administrative scheme for ‘on-the-runs’, HC 177Afternoon Session, Monday 9 June 2014

Oral evidence, 9 June 2014.

Witnesses

John Beggs, Secretary to the Commission, Commission for Victims and Survivors[2], Adrian McNamee, Head of Policy and Research, CVSNI, and Ann Travers and David Scott, Members, Victims and Survivors Forum, gave evidence

Chair

Okay, we will kick straight off. Thank you very much for joining us. I am sorry to keep you waiting a short while. I do not know who is going to be the opening spokesman, but could I ask one of you perhaps to give us a bit of a very brief history of your organisation—when you were set up, and what your aims and objectives are now?

John Beggs

Thank you; I will start off. My name is John Beggs and I am secretary to the Commission for Victims and Survivors. Today I am accompanied by Adrian McNamee to my left, who is our head of policy and research within the Commission. We have also got two of our forum members along today: Ann Travers and David Scott. As part of our forum they will be able to give you some sort of direct evidence on the impact it has had on them as individuals. I also send the apologies of Kathryn Stone, the commissioner. She is unable to make it today, so sends her apologies for the record. In terms of a quick review and background, the Commission for Victims and Survivors was established under legislation in 2006—the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006. It is the public body responsible for promoting the interests of victims and survivors in Northern Ireland. It was set up under the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister and carries out research and policy advice on all matters relating to victims and survivors. Also, as part of that, we have a statutory obligation to represent the interests of victims and survivors. As part of that we are regularly engaged in meeting not just our forum, which comprises 18 victims and survivors, but also engaging with groups and individuals across Northern Ireland; so we have quite an extensive engagement process in order to take the views from across the sector. That is really the background to it. We welcome the opportunity to come along here today and provide evidence on the on-the-runs scheme itself. We have also as a commission, as a forum, given evidence—part of the Lady Justice Hallett review team—as well, recently; so we welcome the opportunity to come here today and make sure the impact of this on individuals and families is clearly heard by this Committee.

Chair

Thank you very much. As we did in the previous session, we went perhaps slightly wider than the terms of reference of our inquiry, which I am happy to do now. Just coming back to the main issue of the OTR scheme, perhaps you could talk us through your knowledge of that and the history of it.

John Beggs

Yes, certainly. In terms of knowledge within the commission, we actually only became aware of the on-the-runs scheme on 25 February when the news broke regarding the John Downey trial. At that point in time, it is worth noting that the commission had been engaged in a comprehensive research programme around solutions for dealing with the past. We had held a conference that day in the Stormont hotel, at which we had 250 delegates from across the victim sector who found that to be a very positive experience, and we were very pleased with the progress we had made on that day. Unfortunately, the timing of the announcement came as a bit of shock to the commission and to the forum and the broader sector. We had no prior knowledge, of course, of that scheme. We are aware that it was, in various forms, in the public domain historically, but we certainly did not have any awareness of the details of that scheme as it has now transpired. Since that announcement, our forum called a special meeting a week later following the announcement of the Downey trial, and the forum had a session just to discuss that specific issue. Of course, within Northern Ireland and within our victims forum there is always a range of views on these issues, but it is fair to say that there was a majority view that there was shock and there was a sense of betrayal with regard to how this scheme was operated. Unfortunately, at that meeting we also had a resignation of one of our forum members, who stood down on the back of the announcement, stating that the reason was that he felt let down by the Government. Unfortunately, we lost a very valuable member of our forum at that session. Since then, the forum have continued to discuss the issue. There still are differences of opinion. There may be some members of our forum who would contest that the on-the-runs scheme was in the public domain, and that it was part of the political context at the time and it was a necessary part of the peace process. However, it is fair to say that the majority view was shock and betrayal in terms of this announcement. The forum, after their exceptional meeting, did however continue to discuss this. They made a press statement at the time that I will just read out for the purposes of the Committee: “The forum had a robust, frank and dignified discussion today. What we are clear about is that we are committed to continue trying to make things better for victims and survivors. In the time we have been together we have encountered and dealt with many difficult issues. This has been one of the biggest and we still don’t know what is ahead. We will continue to consider and discuss with clear and level heads as we look to give our advice to the Commissioner. We all agree that our common goal is to make things better for our children and our grand children.” That was the statement that the forum agreed at that exceptional meeting. As I say, since then they have given evidence to Lady Justice Hallett as part of her review. I think the key message from all this is that we really need to be getting some clarity, and that is why we welcome both this inquiry and the Lady Justice Hallett review on how the scheme is operated and what implications it has for the future, particularly for victims and survivors in the pursuit of accessing justice.

Chair

And regarding the sessions we have had so far, not just today but going back over the last few weeks, what do you make of what you have heard?

John Beggs

I will be honest: we have not had a read-out and we have not taken any feedback on that as yet. It is something that we are going to wait on and, as I say, we will have our forum engaged on the outworkings of that in due course.

Chair

Okay. I will open questions to the Committee.

Dr McDonnell

Have those of you—Ann and David—who are victims and survivors had any success in trying to connect the on-the-runs scheme to your particular bereavement, injury or whatever? Do you suspect that the on-the-runs scheme affected your personal circumstances?

Ann Travers

That is the problem. We just do not know. I do not know who the man was that murdered my sister, who fired the shot that murdered her. For all I know, he could well have one of these letters, and that is what is so distressing. When I heard, I was at the “Dealing with the Past” conference, and it came on Sky News about the John Downey case. Suffice to say, I did not take it all in that day. I drove home just feeling like my stomach was down in my boots. As the week went on, and with the media speculation and discussions about it, I became increasingly distraught. In fact, I went in one day after being out at the shops and sat on the arm of my settee and just burst into tears. My husband came over and put his arm around me and said, “What is wrong?” I said, “What is happening?” My sister Mary was murdered while walking home from mass and my father and mother were shot. Mary was only 23. My dad was a resident magistrate. It is like she doesn’t matter any more. I feel as though it is like the victims do not matter any more and the people being protected are those who went out and murdered them. I have to say, from a personal point of view, that I am very disappointed that not everybody will be co-operating with this inquiry. I think that that is the problem; I do not know who to trust any more. I put my hands up: I find it difficult to trust Sinn Fein, obviously, because my sister was murdered by the IRA and because of Sinn Fein’s support for what the IRA did. I now find it difficult: who else do I trust? Which other politicians do I trust? We must have openness, transparency and everybody should be held accountable. Certainly, no one should be above the law.

Lady Hermon

So it was a mistake for Gerry Kelly to refuse to come and give us evidence[3].

Ann Travers

I believe that very strongly. As John said, we met with Lady Hallett and we have co-operated with her inquiry. That was a closed, private session, and it was, I hope, very informative for her, but it is very important that the public can see and hear exactly what is being said. Personally, I was very disappointed.

David Scott

My own personal experience is that my father was an indirect victim of the troubles. Suddenly, when he was preparing to go to the funeral of a family member who was one of the most senior ranking officers murdered in Newry police station in 1985, he dropped dead. My brother, who was a part-time member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, which he was always very proud of, had three attempts on his life. Because of that, there was an option for him to go full time or come out of the police. He was very keen to pursue a career in the police, but my mother could not take any more of it, simply because of the number of family members who were associated with the RUC. I had various uncles, one of whom had two attempts on his life. One of those was a 600 lb car bomb planted outside his front door in a very built-up residential area. While I personally have not been affected, my family has, in a variety of different ways. I feel passionate and I feel obliged to do something for those people who are unable to speak for themselves. That is the driving force behind my involvement in the forum. Speaking on behalf of those members of my family who have had direct experience, it is difficult for me to express the deep sense of disappointment and betrayal that they feel. They feel that they served their country with pride, dignity and honour, yet here we have a system in place whereby the perpetrator appears to get the green card and appears to get off the hook. Those who try to pursue the murderer of my brother—I have no idea who it was, but he is apparently still on the run somewhere, as are those who are perhaps well known to other members of the family who have had attempts on their lives. It is deeply distressing for family members.

Dr McDonnell

This might be slightly off the focus of our inquiry, which is more Downey-oriented and on-the-runs-oriented, but as you are here, can you briefly answer the question I asked William Frazer earlier? How do you think we can bring closure and satisfaction to your family, to your relatives and to those who have been bereaved?

David Scott

The phrase that comes continually to my attention is the word “justice”. Justice does not appear to be on the radar currently. There is a deep sense of betrayal since the perpetrator appears to be benefiting much more from the benefits of the Belfast Agreement than the victim. For many folk, there is a difficulty in relation to the Belfast Agreement. A lot has been said about the on-the-runs scheme and that they should have known about it and that it was well documented in the press. But, from the victim’s perspective, when you are in that deep traumatic experience and dealing with bereavement, many things go way beyond the radar, and sometimes they just were not in the frame of mind. The Belfast Agreement was a huge shock for many of them, not to mention trying to take on board the potentially damaging impact of the OTR scheme.

Lady Hermon

Just following on from Alasdair’s question, do you think it would be helpful if the 228 OTR letters were annulled or withdrawn?

Ann Travers

That is what I would personally like to see. Also, I would like to see the cases being looked at again. If there are any prosecutions to be done, they should go ahead.

Naomi Long

It is good to have you with us. There are two separate aspects that we are looking at. One is the scheme itself and what it did or did not do and trying to get clarity around that. The other issue is the secrecy with which the scheme was implemented. Obviously, at the time of the Good Friday Agreement, there were some very difficult issues to do with victims. Certainly, for me, one of the most unpalatable parts of the Agreement was the early release of prisoners. I find that difficult, and I was not a victim of the troubles, but it was one of the more difficult parts for many people. But it was done in the open, it was put to the public, and people had a say in what happened. To what degree has the way it has been handled—the covert manner in which it has been done—added insult to injury? And what impact has that had on your confidence and trust not only in political parties, but actually in the system itself? I am interested to explore that with you, as I did with the previous witness.

Ann Travers

Hugely, for me. I am somebody who likes to face things head on. I like to know what I am dealing with, even if it is something that I do not like or do not agree with. I like to know what it is, and then I can consider it and see what way I am going to deal with it. Whenever we are being exposed to stuff—nearly on a daily basis, we are hearing of something else that was agreed and some other backroom deal, if I can use that phrase—it is hugely retraumatising for victims. What you all have to remember as you sit here today is that whenever we hear about things like the OTR scheme or anything else relating to terrorism or people who committed murder, you have got widows, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters who might actually be having quite a good day, who might have been in some euphoria if something nice has happened, and then they switch on the radio and they hear about that and immediately they sink down. You think about what happened to your loved one, and it plays over and over in your mind. I cannot agree with David more. It has irritated me whenever I hear people say, “You should’ve known about this. It was reported. I reported it.” We are talking about 1998 when we agreed the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. Maybe people’s loved ones had been blown up or murdered only 10 years previously. It took about 20 years for me to be able to really feel that I had dealt with my sister’s murder, but obviously it has not been properly dealt with, because every time I hear of stuff like this, it brings me back to that day when I was running down Windsor Avenue and I saw my sister lying dead in the gravel and my mother leaning over my father and saying, “My poor husband, my poor husband.” I was 14 at the time. If I can do anything now in memory of my sister, I will. That is why I am here today and why I am on the Victims Forum, because everything I do is for the love of my sister Mary. Anything I can do is to help prevent victims from being retraumatised. They have been through enough. I do agree that the secrecy just cannot happen any more. We need to have transparency, and we need to have honesty.

Naomi Long

And you would agree that that needs to come not just from the official sources in terms of Government and others, but from some of those who were key to this? You mentioned the fact that Gerry Kelly has refused to give evidence, but, for you it would be important. As victims it would be important that he comes here and actually answers the questions that this Committee has.

Ann Travers

Absolutely. I would also be very interested to know what the people who received on-the-run letters actually took from them. I would be interested to know what they felt those letters meant. I have heard people say, “Anybody could get one of these letters.” I could walk into a PSNI station today and ask them if they were looking for me, and they could write me a letter saying, “No, we’re not looking for you,” but I have no need to go into a PSNI station to ask them whether they are looking for me because I know I have not broken the law. I would like to know what they have taken from it. If I was them and had done nothing wrong, I would want to clear my name and let the due legal process go forward. In my mind, nobody is above the law, whether they are republican or loyalist, or whether they acted while a member of either the RUC or UDR and used information to go off and murder somebody innocent. In my opinion, nobody is above the law.

David Scott

I concur with what Ann says. We are currently substantially debating how the past has been dealt with, and justice has not come the way of many innocent victims. As Ann rightly says, transparency is key to all this. There is a huge sense of disappointment in relation to people such as Gerry Kelly, who the victims would see as dictating to them how they should live their lives and how Northern Ireland should progress to a safer, better future. How can victims do that if they have not had an opportunity to have their past dealt with sufficiently in their opinion? That is one of the key things, and it is a huge disappointment. In answer to your question on the scheme’s impact, on how the scheme was delivered and presented, and on the ongoing shenanigans, I think it is fair to say that there are many victims who are being driven further back into victimhood. I know that may be an outlandish statement for some folk to accept, but I have spoken to quite a number of folk locally who are well known to me and who have witnessed and been on the receiving end of some of the most atrocious terrorist activity, and they are being driven back into a place of insecurity. They are even disengaging with simple practical things in life, be it their church life or community group life. They just feel that they do not trust anybody anymore, which is a very sad thing to have to present to the Committee today.

Lady Hermon

That doesn’t surprise me. It is very good to hear from you.

Ian Paisley

Please do not underestimate how powerful your words are today. Your words are powerful for us as Members of Parliament, but more importantly they are powerful to the audience out there who hear them. They are incredibly powerful, they tug at heartstrings and they tell a real story. Never underestimate how important they are. As a Committee, we have tried to give victims a platform to say some of the things that you are saying today. Indeed, in the next few weeks we hope to hear from relatives from the Hyde Park bombing, too. I think that will be important. I hope you take away with you a sense that this is incredibly important. It is incredibly important for the public to hear your words and voices giving expression to this grief. I want to explore what the Committee can ultimately do. Alasdair or Sylvia, I cannot remember who, asked about the publication of the actual letters. Would you find it helpful if we were to publish every single one of those letters if we got access to them so that people could see for themselves what the on-the-runs thought they were running from and, secondly, what they thought they were getting indemnity for? Would that help?

Ann Travers

Anything that is going to be transparent will help. At least people could then see what exactly is in the letters. As I said, my father, sister and mother were not given a chance to plead for their lives; it was taken from them. Mary’s life was taken from her just like that with a single bullet in the back. We didn’t receive a letter giving us a chance to not go to mass—as was my father’s, mother’s and sister’s right—that day. If I did something wrong—if I had gone out and sought revenge after Mary’s murder and killed somebody—I would be held accountable and be brought to court and, if found guilty, serve time in prison. I just do not see why a certain part of society should receive these letters and we should be told, “It was all for peace”, because it is not for peace. If it is not a true and honest peace it is a shaky peace. I quite agree with David: I have never felt more of a victim in my entire life than as I do now. I would always have thought that I was a survivor, but each and every time something like this happens it makes victims feel that they are worthless. So, to answer your question, yes, absolutely, to publish the letters would be helpful.

Ian Paisley

As a citizen of this country, do you feel, observing this process, that these letters that people are carrying have meant more than what the piece of paper actually says? Is that why there is such a fight over them? Is that your impression?

Ann Travers

Even if they legally do not have much truck and they aren’t as bad as we all think—and we are told that they are perhaps not as bad as they actually are—it is the principle. It is the fact that they have them, and the fact that we have nothing. As I said, there are so many victims who do not know who murdered their loved ones, and there are those who suspect that the people who were involved in the murder of their loved one have one of these letters—maybe they have been told by journalists that somebody who is suspected of being involved in the murder of their loved one holds one of these letters. When I heard about the OTR letters not only was I so upset myself but I was extremely angry for all those other families and for people who I am now so proud to call friends, whom I have met over the past number of years, who know that somebody involved in, for example, the Enniskillen bomb is holding one of these letters. It is that suspicion. We have nothing.

Ian Paisley

Finally, in terms of the issue of closure, obviously those of us who believe in the rule of law want to see people held accountable and punished for their actions sufficiently. But what else can be delivered to victims in terms of closure? I think it is important that we try to move to a point where victims help shape policy. What else can be done to assist victims in helping them get to a point of closure and—I hate to use the words—help them move to the next phase or move on? I say that very delicately because I do not believe that even in normal bereavement you actually move on—it is just that time goes on.

Ann Travers

Again, speaking for my own personal case, I am not stupid. I realise that the likelihood of getting any prosecution of the gunman who murdered Mary and attempted the murder of my father is practically nil, but I do not want that hope to be taken away from me. So I would like to see documents that the police, the Government and MI5 hold being released as well. I would like to see an openness. If it means that people who did wrong and are now in positions of authority end up being prosecuted, then so be it, or else where are our morals? What sort of sort of society are we living in, to say that, for example, Mary was murdered on 8 April 1984 but now in 2014 we can forget about that—that was just all part of a conflict, or war, or terrorism? Every family has the right to justice, so I would just like to see a bit more openness. It is a bit of a Pandora’s box and things will probably come out of it that we might not like, but I think that there should be transparency all round.

Ian Paisley

These other things keep emerging, such as pensions, payments or a truth and reconciliation commission. Where do they sit in terms of the—

Ann Travers

I would have been quite supportive of truth and reconciliation—certainly reconciliation—but now I wonder how I would know who will be telling the truth. Every day, I hear politicians saying that they were not responsible for what happened—sorry, actually that is unfair to some; only certain politicians say that. I just despair, because as time moves on, I see—certainly coming from the point of view of a victim of IRA violence—politicians within Sinn Fein distancing themselves or saying that they knew nothing about anything, that it was not to do with them, and I just wonder. So I don’t know—if we had a truth commission, how do I know that they are actually going to go and tell the truth? How do I know, when they won’t come here today, and they will not sit and face you guys and be questioned? How can I trust them? But absolutely, I think it is about meeting each other and learning to understand each other and understanding that we are all human beings at the end of the day.

David Scott

May I concur again with what Ann has said? There is nothing I wish to add to or amend in that. One of the hurts and fears of the victim on the ground is that they appear just to be becoming another statistic—some kind of statistical evidence that they are part of a troubled past—and that is very difficult for them to bear up to, while they watch and listen to some folk in political life posturing and telling us all how we should live and how we should move forward to a safer environment and to a better, ensured future. The statistical element is very difficult for those people to take on board, so the value in their contribution to a more peaceful and stable Northern Ireland has not been taken into account. If you take into consideration the valued work of organisations such as the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the UDR and the Prison Service, those people kept Northern Ireland from going into a civil war position, and I think sometimes that is never valued. The perception is that there is much more value in keeping the perpetrator at bay and keeping them peaceful and quiet, as opposed to backing up and supporting those who have sacrificed their all—those who have the empty chair in the house, who have the dinner place where the family member no longer sits. It is very difficult to tell a boy who was 12 years of age when he was orphaned, and is now a man heading for 40 years age, why they would want to murder his father. For him, as the only child, who lived with his father alone in a nice little rural part of rural Ulster, it is very difficult to comprehend what made his father such an unlikeable person that they had to murder him.

David Simpson

You are very welcome. Around this table today, you would very much have a sympathetic ear, because the members of this Committee are from Northern Ireland or have suffered at the hands of the provos, as my family did—they murdered four of them. Those sort of things are very hard to forget, and I can understand where you are coming from, but in the rest of the United Kingdom and in the House of Commons, not everyone will be sympathetic to this, because they think that the OTRs—we have dealt with evidence today where Attorney-Generals agreed to drop prosecutions and looked into other ones, and blind eyes were turned and all the rest of it, over the past 30 years of a dirty, dirty war. What is the message that you want to send to other Members of Parliament in the Palace of Westminster? What is the core message you want to get to the people there to listen and to make sure, at the end of the day, that justice is done for the victims? In my opinion, for what it’s worth, despite the fact that 19 officers are going to re-investigate, and all those things, the message I am getting from a lot of victims is, “It’s over. We’re not going to get justice. HET is closed down. Everything is just falling apart for us.” The pain, as you rightly said, David, earlier, is as raw today as it was the day the murders happened. What is the clear message that you want to get out to those in the Labour party, the Tories, the coalition, or whatever? What core message do you, as victims, want to get out there, so that they will listen?

Ann Travers

Please don’t forget about us. Put yourself in our shoes. Just imagine what it would have been like if you had waved your father off one day, expecting to see him come back and come in to eat his dinner, and for him to never walk in through the door again; for a nine-year-old child witnessing your father being murdered in front of you; and as an eight-year-old girl, opening the front door to let gunmen run in to murder your father. Just imagine what it is like living with that and to be told that we have to accept stuff for peace, yet we have lost our loved ones. I have heard politicians justifying the OTR letters and it was incredibly hurtful. We were told to be thankful that we have Martin McGuinness now as Deputy First Minister and that violence has stopped. There are families who suspect that, perhaps, there are politicians within this building who could help them get closure and who refuse to do so. I would just plead with them to remember us and to think of us from a human point of view. We are not just statistics: we are real people. You have widows in their 70s and 80s living alone now and every time they hear something like this, they feel that they are worth nothing. My father, as a resident magistrate, worked for the Government, for the state, for the Queen. Surely, he is worth something, Surely, the lives of all those men and women who served as police officers and in the UDR are worth something.

David Scott

I suppose, from my perspective, I think the key message would be that we cannot live in the past; we all have to progress to a better future, and I think Ann and I are both in agreement that we are on the Forum to make that difference. However, it would be wrong to—and my message to those within Her Majesty’s Government would be, “Don’t put the victims in an archival box”. Don’t put us in a box labelled, “The Troubles”, “The Past”, because they are a key part of the future of Northern Ireland. Don’t stick them in the background and don’t forget about them. Give them the opportunity to be heard and give them their place in society, because at the end of the day they are British citizens.

Lady Hermon

It has been very moving listening to Ann in particular and David—very moving indeed, very helpful for us. Could I just make a suggestion? If Mr Gerry Kelly and his colleagues are listening to the evidence that you have given to us today, then Mr Kelly should revisit his decision and perhaps come and give evidence publicly to this Committee. What has he got to hide? If he does not do that—if he does not make a sensible decision to come and give evidence to the Select Committee—would it be in your mind to ask Mr Gerry Kelly to come and give evidence to the Victims and Survivors Forum? Has that been given some thought?

John Beggs

No, we haven’t given that any thought.

Lady Hermon

You could hear a pin drop in this room as you are speaking. There is hurt, pain and loss of trust—the huge loss of trust—in so many organisations and in the rule of law. It is clear that the PSNI, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Attorney-General’s office were all involved in this secret scheme to facilitate Mr Adams and republicans. We have to somehow repair the damage and repair that trust. The right hon. Member for Neath, Peter Hain—let me just nominate him, because he comes immediately to mind—has announced that he is going to stand down at the next election. This gentleman defended the OTR scheme, and he defended the letter that was given to Mr Downey in 2007[4], saying it was to save the peace process. Well, the peace process was not in any danger in 2007. But there are others as well; there is Jonathan Powell, who signed off the early letters in Downing street. Would it be helpful to have the victims looking in the faces of those who made these key decisions, even 14 or 15 years afterwards? Would that be something that you would contemplate? Would it be acceptable to other victims? Would that help, Ann?

Ann Travers

Absolutely. I’m a member of the Forum, but I can’t speak for everybody in the Forum, because they are not here, but, absolutely, I think that it would be very welcome to be able to speak with those gentlemen to let them really realise the damage that has been done and to try to find some way of repairing it. The main issue in all this is trust, because whenever I hear—personally, again—Peter Hain defending the OTR letters, I find it difficult now to take anything that he says seriously. I feel that he has put members of the IRA above victims and above innocent people, who did absolutely nothing—they were innocently going about their business, only to be murdered. So, yes, it would be helpful. I say again, we need to build up that trust. Look, members of Sinn Fein have come so far, and they have done a lot to help bring forward peace and to lift the guns away from here, and that must be given to them—that respect must be given to them. A couple of years ago, I would have said that I felt that life had really changed here for the better and that politicians had changed. Then I had my own circumstance, with a special adviser being appointed. I thought that, maybe, Sinn Fein would do the right thing—that they would look at me as being a human being, and they didn’t. They were quite arrogant, really, about the situation. I sort of feel that not coming to speak with you today again shows that arrogance and dismisses victims; it dismisses people like me—“Look at that poor girl. She’s obviously very traumatised. She mustn’t be well.” That’s what is being said about me—“She must be mental.” That is what is said to try to get you to stop speaking out like this, but families and victims are not going to stop speaking out, and I am really delighted that they have found their voices, but they shouldn’t have to. We should not have to appear in front of you today; we should not have to be here. This is something that should just be a moral correctness—just what is right. Do what is right.

Lady Hermon

Yes, and we are very pleased that you are here this afternoon.

David Scott

Could I add to that? I just want to say that it appears to me that people like Mr Kelly think that they are beyond the law—that they are untouchable. I think that that message needs to change.

Lady Hermon

So do we.

David Scott

I think they, too, should be held to account for not appearing here today.

Lady Hermon

Well, if Mr Kelly, as I say, had nothing to hide, he would voluntarily come along and give evidence, like some of his colleagues— Raymond McCartney of Sinn Fein had no difficulty coming and giving his evidence about 18 months ago. Chairman, we will ponder the proposal about perhaps facilitating a meeting with leading politicians, and we will perhaps take it back as a suggestion for our report. I am interested in how we restore trust. Obviously, the Police Service of Northern Ireland have a new chief constable coming in, at the end of this month it seems now—a little bit earlier than we were anticipating. How do we help victims have confidence in Operation Redfield, which is going to take a considerable period of time, it is going to be very detailed and is going to look at every single OTR case? If I have understood what you have said to us this afternoon, it is the openness and the transparency. How can the PSNI, as they are reviewing those cases, help build back confidence and trust that the OTR letters haven’t gone to the murderer of your family member? Is there a process that they could engage in? Could they write to you to reassure you? Would that be helpful? Could we suggest that?

Ann Travers

Yes. I think that would be very helpful.

Lady Hermon

I know that Chief Superintendent Breen and Superintendent Buchanan were the two most senior RUC officers who were murdered along the border, and certainly I understand that the lawyer of at least one of those families believes that the possibility is—as probably every family of someone who has been murdered suspects and has no evidence to the contrary—that their loved one has been murdered by somebody who has now got an OTR letter. That is a suggestion that perhaps could be useful as well for us to take back. May I now direct my comments to Mr Beggs and Mr McNamee?

Chair

Questions, please.

Lady Hermon

Yes, it is a question. Am I right in thinking that the Commission for Victims and Survivors in Northern Ireland is actually appointed by the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister?

John Beggs

Yes.

Lady Hermon

I knew it was, but you have confirmed that. When you heard about or even read the Downey case and discovered that this administrative scheme giving these comfort letters had been in operation since as late as 1999 and certainly by the beginning of 2000, obviously with the knowledge of the now Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, how did that make you feel? He was responsible for the appointment of the commission—he is one of those who are responsible for the appointment of the commission and, indeed, the victims commission—and never let on that he knew anything about the OTR scheme. Whichever of you wants to answer first, or does one of you want to answer on behalf of the other?

John Beggs

As I said in the opening statements, the announcement of the scheme was certainly a shock to the commission. The timing of that announcement around work that the commission had been doing for some 18 months or two years on trying to find a strategic way around dealing with the past, the pursuit of justice—

Lady Hermon

And when you say dealing with the past, did you spend a considerable amount of time dealing with the issue of OTRs as part of dealing with the past?

John Beggs

No, not OTRs specifically.

Lady Hermon

You hadn’t wasted time on that issue? You hadn’t spent time on it?

John Beggs

No, as it emerged, and we understand that these reviews are ongoing, we haven’t spent any time until we hear what the findings and the outcome of the two reviews will be. Then we will come together again and, with the forum, consult on the way through it. But it was certainly a shock to us initially. We had provided advice to the First and Deputy First Minister—policy advice on issues relating to victims and survivor—and certainly part of our advice on dealing with the past is a lot of work around the pursuit of justice and being sure victims have the right and the opportunity to seek justice. So certainly from that perspective we have concerns, but as it is ongoing advice, we have not had a response back yet from the First and Deputy First Minister on our dealing with the past advice. It is something that is on our work programme and we will actively pursue because it means a whole lot. As you have heard from Ann and David today, it is such a critical issue that we need to address.

Lady Hermon

But can I just repeat the question? Has the revelation from the Downey case, that the OTR comfort letters have been in existence for an awfully long time, damaged the confidence that you might otherwise have had in the Deputy First Minister, who knew all about this scheme all along?

John Beggs

Commissioner Stone has recently issued a press statement on this and certainly we have felt over the past number of weeks, and as information comes to the fore on this issue, that there is a loss in trust and confidence on this issue.

Lady Hermon

Had it any part to play in Kathryn Stone’s decision to leave the post?

John Beggs

Certainly not. Kathryn Stone’s decision to move on is for another job opportunity and that reason alone had no bearing on her decision.

Lady Hermon

Could I ask David and Ann about the impact of the OTR scheme on each of you and the fact it has been going on for such a considerable period? How do you view Martin McGuinness, as our Deputy First Minister? You do not have to say if you do not want to.

Ann Travers

To be honest, I am very disappointed in him—not just because of this. I am disappointed that he does not seem to quite understand how detrimental it has been to victims of IRA violence. Mr McGuinness likes to say how much work he does with people from different communities and how far he has come but he has not—to my knowledge—met with victims like me. He has not requested to meet to explain about the OTR letters.

Lady Hermon

Would you like him to do that? Would that be helpful?

Ann Travers

There would probably be people who would not want to meet him but, as I said at the start, I like to face things head on and I like to know what I am dealing with. I like to think that I can see through somebody if they are not being entirely honest with me. So, yes, I think it would probably be helpful.

David Scott

We have talked quite a bit about truth, haven’t we? I do not think that anybody can ever trust a word the man says. It may be—this is very difficult—irreparable damage. I am sorry but you are dealing with folk who have borne the brunt of a dirty terrorist campaign. All they have left is a photograph and a headstone to visit. How do you trust someone if their party cannot come here today and face this Committee? I am sorry but I do not have trust in that.

Chair

Before we move on, Sinn Fein notified me over the weekend that they were not prepared to come to this Committee. I now have to write back to them and, perhaps, correct some of the misapprehensions that they have about this Committee—about the way it works and the way it is set up. That is a process we are taking forward; it is only right for me to point that out at this stage.

Oliver Colvile

First, I thank you very much for coming and expressing your case and the history of what happened to you and your family. You have my condolences. I will just make one small point: there will be a number of people who are in very senior positions making decisions about the on-the-run letters and who will be appearing before us, I hope, in the House of Commons. You may want to make sure that a number of you are there so that they can physically see you as the victims and what the implications of their decisions were. You may want to take that on board. There are two things I really want to talk to you about. First, are you very shocked that Sinn Fein was able to bully the British Government in the way it ended up doing?

Ann Travers

Absolutely. I was brought up to live by the rule of law. That was how my father brought us up. I am quite disgusted that these sort of deals were done and it lets down all those thousands of people who were murdered and the families that were left behind. Those senior politicians should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves because, while they may think they were doing something for a peace process, I view it now that they were looking for some kind of Nobel peace prize and to get a pat on the back for what they did. They had absolutely no thought or consideration for those mothers and fathers who have been left without their children, the brothers and sisters or the daughters and sons who were left without mothers and fathers. I think that they need to be held accountable, and I really hope that whenever they appear in front of you they tell the truth and that they do not give excuses. I do not want them to give excuses and say, “Oh it was for this.” They need to look at us and see what they have done. They have broken people. There are people who are sitting at home, broken. They are devastated. My own mother would say to me, “Sure they don’t care, but Mary doesn’t matter.” It is heartbreaking for me to hear my elderly mother say that. It is how many, many, many men and women feel in this country and beyond and in the UK and over in England, such as those who had loved ones blown up in Birmingham. They feel exactly the same way; as though they don’t matter any more, which is just wrong. I would not wish harm on anybody, including those who wish harm on my family. I really hope that they are open and transparent.

Oliver Colvile

I have some understanding of what you are going through for the simple reason that I was based in Harrods during the incident in the 1980s and I was also in Brighton and left the Grand hotel about 10 minutes before that incident took place, so, believe you me, they have tried to have a go at me—perhaps not me specifically, but it was a group of people. David, do you want to add to that comment?

David Scott

Absolutely. I just ask them to search their conscience to find what justification they have to rubber-stamp or give a seal of approval to letters to let terrorists off the hook. As Ann rightly says, we were brought up in Christian homes and were taught to respect the rule of law. You are taught the basic moral of life, which is that if you do wrong, you are punished for it.

Oliver Colvile

My personal view is that a strong country is one that has an independent judiciary and a non-corrupt police force. One of the things that may have come out of all this—I have said this on several occasions in this Committee—is that by making decisions to do what they did end up doing and by issuing on-the-run letters, they may have actually stopped that judicial process from being able to work properly. Therefore, there is a real threat that what has actually happened has been a perversion of the course of justice. I would be grateful for your comments on that.

Ann Travers

I just want to say that there will always be people who are unhappy with the police—always. I have always supported the police. At times, I have maybe been disappointed at decisions that have been made, but generally and on the whole we have very good men and women who serve in the police force. They deserve our support, but they also deserve to be held to account. I cannot emphasise enough just how the OTR letters seem to be nearly the final nail in the coffin for victims. We have honestly had enough. Nobody is getting any justice. Nobody is getting any prosecutions for their loved one’s murder. We just keep on seeing that those who are responsible for putting us in the situation that we are in now—as in today—seem to be continually rewarded or let away with or can say, “We don’t want to speak to you,” or “We can do things behind closed doors.” That has to stop, because we need to build up trust. When that trust is built up, slowly, I think things will move on. Just before I finish, I know that if I had an acknowledgement that there was absolutely no justification in attempting to murder my father or in the attempted murder of my mother and the murder of my sister—if I had a, “Sorry. It wasn’t justified. We should never have done it. We wish that we had sat and talked sooner,” that would be a very small step towards healing, because, as David says, we cannot live in the past and not one of us wants to.

Oliver Colvile

The other point, which I just made to you, is that I represent a naval garrison city with not only the Royal Navy, but the eminent, brilliant Royal Marines, a number of whom came and served in Northern Ireland as well. They will be sitting there also thinking, “Why is Sinn Fein allowed to get away with some of this when, frankly, we still have the sword of Damocles hanging over our heads, too?” That is a point that is incredibly important for people to recognise during the course of this inquiry.

Kate Hoey

Can I thank you, too, and add to what Ian said about the powerfulness of what you all have said—Willie Frazer, Kenny Donaldson—because all of the victims speaking out is so crucial. The ignorance that there is within the British Parliament in the UK on this issue is quite sad. You said, Ann, that Gerry Kelly perhaps felt that he was above the law. Does it ever occur to you that Gerry Kelly, Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams perhaps, are above the law and have been given some form of commitment in many of these secret deals that went on that they would never be charged with anything?

Ann Travers

I think that is what an awful lot of families do believe, but it is wrong. Maybe this is a good thing. Maybe the Downey case has been a positive thing. Maybe it is a watershed where we change it so that nobody is above law—nobody. Everybody must be held accountable and everybody must take responsibility for their own actions and not try to pass it on to others. For a lot of families there have certainly been a lot of discussions. People wonder what other deals have been done. Again it comes down to that trust: who do we trust?

Kate Hoey

That brings us on to trust in Northern Ireland and the situation today. Some politicians like to present it as being very rosy and it is obviously hugely better, but it is still not just a divided society but one with possibilities of problems and issues arising at any time. How much trust do you think victims and families generally and the pro-Union community in Northern Ireland can feel that whatever is happening today is not one-sided, or slightly more one-sided, given what has happened in the past, in terms of decisions being taken by the DPP and the Attorney-General and such things? Do you think there can now be real trust in the institutions?

Ann Travers

I don’t think at the moment that there is much trust in them at all. I do think friends of mine in the Unionist community and various victims’ groups would say that they feel that it is very one-sided. However, I believe that everybody has got the right to justice. I think those families who want to have inquiries for things that the British Army did are absolutely entitled to have those inquiries. Inquiries are important because you get to ask the questions that you want to have the answers for. I find it very sad that we seem to be at this stage where nobody feels that they can trust. They don’t know who to turn to or what is going to happen next. That is why I welcome this inquiry. I have watched just a bit of it and some of the things that have been said are quite shocking, but it can only help to heal. The more we have these conversations, the more that we can heal and perhaps build up that trust again.

David Scott

Can I just add that justice should be a right to those who have suffered and are bereaved? It should not have to be sought for or fought for by the victims, but that is apparently what they appear to have to do on a continual basis. Part of my explanation as to why they have been driven further back is because of that lack of trust. The OTR scheme was probably the cream on the cake that pushed them to the limit. In all sections and all walks of life we look for accountability. In everything that we do, be it in our employment or our voluntary community organisations, we seek accountability, but there appears to be no accountability in relation to this particular topic. There appears to be a big drive and emphasis placed on the fact that you’ve got to keep the troublemaker at bay, you’ve got to keep the peace with them, you’ve got to keep the lid on their potential actions, because the victims ain’t going to do much harm. Many people’s perception appears to be that it is not they who are going to create much difficulty—these people who have been affected by the troubles are going to be no bother —but there is a bigger and greater risk from those perpetrators who might perhaps ignite the flame again. So all measures have to be taken to keep that fire at bay. That is the perception.

Kate Hoey

A form of peace at any price, or the end justifies the means?

David Scott

Absolutely.

Kate Hoey

Tony Blair is ultimately responsible for all of this. Tony Blair and Gerry Adams could be the two people who actually are responsible for this all being the way it is. The Northern Ireland peace process is probably one of the last crowns on Tony Blair’s head. My former leader has been derided on Iraq and a whole number of other issues, but he has this still hanging over him: that he solved Northern Ireland. Do you think this on-the-runs situation could be the end of that halo, or the slipping of the halo?

Ann Travers

I can tell you, the amount of people I know who could well have a dartboard up in their bedroom somewhere—

Kate Hoey

As long as it’s only darts.

Ann Travers

Certainly, a lot of people feel very let down. Politicians and Government are supposed to look after the most vulnerable in society and, for me, the victims of what happened in Northern Ireland are among the most vulnerable in society. We still seem to have to fight for everything. We fight for services; we are having to fight now for truth and justice; and we are having to speak up every time that something is hitting us between the eyes. Personally, I feel very let down by what Tony Blair did and wonder exactly what other deals went on. That is why I was saying earlier that I would like to see papers released from that time, just to know what exactly went on.

Kate Hoey

Is it the deceitfulness of the whole thing that really gets to you?

Ann Travers

Yes, and the dismissiveness towards victims.

David Scott

Very much so.

Ann Travers

Basically, you have to accept it if you want to have peace. That is what we have had to sacrifice. But, you know, we have sacrificed the most. We have sacrificed: not only have I personally lost and sacrificed my sister, but I have sacrificed my education and I have sacrificed the career that I should have had; I have sacrificed parts of my mental health, probably. We have sacrificed the most and I don’t believe we should have to sacrifice any more. I plead with you to ensure that this never happens again and to ensure that there is transparency and accountability for all.

David Scott

If I could add to that and say that the condescending nature of some of the comments and statements from some people certainly adds more misery to those who have been hurt the most. It is that continual statement, “Sure, do you really want to live in the bad old days again? Do you really want to really want to bring those bad old days back?” when in actual fact, we were not the creators of the bad old days. We were protectors of law and order and our families were involved in that process.

Ann Travers

We also get things like, “You either accept the Good Friday Agreement or you don’t.” So if you speak out, you are in some way wanting to rock the peace process. That could not be further from the truth for victims of violence. There is no way any one of us would want to go back to what we had, nor could we could wish it upon another human being.

David Scott

Somebody quite recently said to me—Ann has just brought it to my attention— “We appear now to be the troublemakers.” That sort of gives you a reflection as to the attitude of the victims. They are now asking, “Well, what have we done wrong? Why is our past so much under scrutiny and question, when these other folk, who were the perpetrators, are being glorified?”

Chair

Your overall point would be that sweeping things under the carpet does not lead to peace.

David Scott

Absolutely.

Ann Travers

Absolutely. Definitely.

Chair

Hopefully, the last question. Nigel.

Nigel Mills

Just to finish, perhaps, the direction Kate was taking, would this have been a deal-breaker back in the Good Friday Agreement? If it had said, “It’s a two-year maximum sentence and they get out, and all those on the run get away with it” would that have been a deal-breaker, do you think, for the peace process? If it had been transparent, would you have just said, “Well, it is one more bad thing, but we will take it, to get there, to get the peace”?

Ann Travers

I think that people were desperate back then. I think they were so desperate for the murdering to stop that they were nearly down on their knees just pleading for it to happen, and they perhaps would have accepted things without even realising what it was they were accepting. As I have said, earlier on, the trauma of losing somebody—either being involved in an incident yourself or losing a family member—is so huge that some things, you just would have believed that the politicians were doing the best thing for you, and that it was right. It is only afterwards—I suppose maybe we should have been given a cooling-off period, maybe. You know, like a day to have had a bit of time to actually think and realise what the consequences actually meant; because I think as Naomi said earlier, people accepted the release of the prisoners in the Good Friday Agreement. They didn’t like it, but they accepted it because they thought, “Well, if no one else is going to be murdered then we will accept it.” Equally, it is difficult whenever you see the person who was responsible for murdering your loved one in a well-paid job and getting on with their life, and you think that your family member was not even given the opportunity to even get married or even start their career. So I don’t know if it would have been a deal-breaker or not, is what I am saying. I think people tend to, at times of absolute desperation, just to have peace, just to have that quiet time—perhaps might have accepted it if they had known about it. I don’t know.

Nigel Mills

The fact is the deal was some kind of justice, no matter how limited.

Ann Travers

But because it was kept quiet—obviously it was kept quiet because they knew it was wrong. I mean why do you keep things quiet? Why do you do things without telling anybody? Why do you slip the brown envelope to somebody? You know it is wrong. You know in your gut it is wrong. I do not believe that Peter Hain did not know it was wrong, and Jonathan Powell did not know it was wrong, in their gut, but, you know, maybe they wanted that pat on the back.

David Scott

I think, to add to that, as well, the Belfast Agreement in its own right was written in such legalistic language by and large that ordinary folk did not really understand it. Ann is quite right: the prospect of at least putting a halt to ongoing murder after murder was perhaps the most focal point in people’s mind. But whenever we were advised by, perhaps, some politicians then of the potential dangers of the Belfast Agreement and what potentially could come in the ripple effect thereafter, I think that was deemed to be scaremongering. So whenever you look back 15-odd years, now, I do not think by and large victims then felt that Her Majesty’s Government would do a dirty deal on them. I think they believed all along that they would be well cared for, that they would be respected and they would be taken care of, because they were seen to be the protectors of law and order.

Mr Benton

I do not think there is any need for me to ask the question now, except to say that I was going to ask a question on the same lines that you just received, but I was going to phrase it this way: suppose the position had been really transparent—there had been open discussion, it had gone through Parliament and so forth. Not that I think this would have happened, but if Parliament had endorsed those proposals, how would you have reacted to it then, in a democratic way? I suppose it is more or less the same line; but what I would like to add is that I have been very impressed with this evidence session. I have listened very carefully. It may sound a bit personal but it made more poignant to hear about your late father, Ann; I was a magistrate for 20-odd years in a former life and I can imagine how you felt doing a public service with all its demands and so on, but today’s evidence has been very poignant and informative. At the end of the day, how you began your evidence is the key to it all: the openness and transparency of everything. We have got to be emphatic about that and I want to assure you that that is what we are all about. It is about getting to the bottom of it. Thank you very much for your contribution.

Ann Travers

Just with the OTR letters, I do not believe that anybody should get a letter. If somebody has done something wrong, they need to go through our judicial process. I do not believe that a letter should ever have been given out in exchange for peace.

Mr Benton

Would you agree with the accepted democratic position?

Ann Travers

I believe in democracy and I have never used a bomb or an Armalite to get my own way, so whatever the public votes for, I will accept.

David Scott

Just like Ann—I would be no different. I was a huge opponent of the Belfast Agreement, but, at the same time, I accepted the democratic will of the people.

Chair

This has been very interesting. You have been very open and frank with us and it has been a very moving session. I hope that we have had a good television audience, because it has been very important. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. Oral evidence: Administrative scheme for ‘on-the-runs’, HC 177 4 [1] The transcript of Nick Perry’s evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on 9 June 2014 can be found here: http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/administrative-scheme-for-ontheruns/oral/10382.html [2] A link to the written evidence provided by the Commission for Victims and Survivors in July 2014 can be found here: http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/administrative-scheme-for-ontheruns/written/10917.html [3] The letter from Gerry Kelly to the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee (June 2014) can be found here: http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/administrative-scheme-for-ontheruns/written/10353.html [4] A link to the letter from the Northern Ireland office to Mr John Downey of July 2007 is provided here: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/northern-ireland-affairs/Cover-letter-from-NIO-to-Gerry-Kelly-and-John-Downey-OTR-Letter-July-2007.pdf