Oral evidence: Zero Hours Contracts in Scotland, HC 275Wednesday 11 June 2014

Oral evidence, 11 June 2014.

Witnesses

Sheila Gupta, Director of Human Resources, University of Edinburgh, Christine Barr, Director of Human Resources, University of Glasgow, and Helen Fairfoul, Chief Executive, Universities and Colleges Employers Association, gave evidence.

Chair

Welcome to this meeting of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee. As you will probably be aware, we are conducting an inquiry into zero hours, which follows on from a number of other related matters that we have been exploring— blacklisting, health and safety and so on. In particular relation to yourselves, we have had the UCU in, and they raised a number of points with us. Arising from those we particularly wanted to bring in Edinburgh University and Glasgow University, as well as the Universities and Colleges Employers as a whole. We wanted to do that on the basis that Glasgow and Edinburgh seemed to be the worst in terms of use of casual contracts and zero hours. We are aware from previous inquiries that we have had of the major role that the universities play in the economy. Indeed, we have had special pleading from them on a number of occasions in relation to various aspects of their activities, particularly things like immigration rules and so on. We are not unsympathetic to that, but, as you will expect, there is then an expectation that you would be among the first rank of employers in Scotland. Regrettably that seems not exactly to be the case. I want to start off by asking you all to introduce yourselves for the record. Just give us your name, rank and number, as it were.

Sheila Gupta

My name is Sheila Gupta. I am the director of human resources at the University of Edinburgh.

Christine Barr

My name is Christine Barr. I am the human resources director at the University of Glasgow.

Helen Fairfoul

I am Helen Fairfoul. I am chief executive at the Universities and Colleges Employers Association.

Chair

Why do you believe the use of zero hours contracts is so widespread throughout the higher education sector in Scotland?

Helen Fairfoul

I would start by saying that we don’t think the use of zero hours contracts is widespread in the higher education sector. We have looked at data. The reliable data, as far as we are concerned, are the data gathered by the Higher Education Statistics Agency. There is a difference in gathering numbers on contracts actually issued, which may or may not be active contracts at any point in time, and what the work force composition is. If I could go on to talk about work force composition, if you look at the HESA data—the Higher Education Statistics Agency—they gather a staff record once a year. It involves my colleagues here and their teams producing very detailed individualised staff records. It is a very thorough analysis of the work force. They typify a category of employee called atypical. The atypical encompasses those on variable or short-term working arrangements. If you actually look at the atypical numbers in higher education, across the UK they make up 3.7% of full-time equivalent employees in the work force. In Scotland it is a slightly lower number: 3.4%. It is a very small part of the higher education work force. Going a little further, atypicals encompass anybody who works in an atypical way. Zero hours are merely a component of those.

Chair

Of course 3.7% of full-time equivalent is an exceptionally misleading figure if you ask for the number of employees who are covered by atypical contracts compared with those who are not. Somebody on a 40-hour week and somebody on a one-hour week would average out at 2.5% or so, but it is not quite giving the full impression. Could you tell us how many people are on atypical contracts in the sector in Scotland compared with those who are on what would be considered normal full-time contracts?

Helen Fairfoul

I should have those data. Do you want actual body count?

Chair

Yes.

Helen Fairfoul

These will include people who do two hours in a year, so you can see why in terms of getting size of work force—

Chair

I understand that, but give us a feel for it.

Helen Fairfoul

The body count—that is a rather crude term but you know what I mean—for atypical across Scottish institutions, using the HESA data from 2012-13, is 9,800. The rest of the work force is 39,300.

Chair

Roughly 20% of the work force are on these atypical contracts, some of which will be very small, and so on and so forth.

Helen Fairfoul

Yes.

Chair

In terms of teaching staff, under what circumstances and at what grade do zero hours contracts tend to be used?

Helen Fairfoul

Zero hours, just to focus on that, or variable—because not every institution uses zero hours but a lot of institutions will have casual and variable arrangements—would be in about five main categories. I have had a think about this. The main one is the classic supply teacher syndrome: urgent and unforeseen cover. A typical example would be if a technician falls ill and you want the studio to be open for students to work in the studio. You get somebody in to cover for health and safety reasons in the studio. We then have specialist professionals teaching on programmes where it is an absolutely core part of the quality and experience for the students that they have, for example, practising lawyers who come in and deliver a piece of the programme. Those people will, more often than not, have permanent other employment. Practising professionals, particularly in the specialist institutions and conservatoires—musicians, actors and so forth—whose skills are needed are very much dependent upon the students enrolled. If somebody enrols who wants to take trombone symphonic playing as opposed to jazz saxophone or whatever, you need a pool of highly skilled musicians able to respond to those sorts of demands. There is seasonal work, as in any business. This includes exam invigilation and conference work. There will be seasonal peaks. Crucially, I would say, there are work opportunities that are earmarked for students. That has really been quite a significant feature in the use of variable and casual arrangements. It would be at both ends of the spectrum. A lot of students hugely appreciate working as student ambassadors for their institution. They can work that flexibly around their studies. It gives them great experience on their CVs. Some of them do library shelving or bar work. There is a full range of employment opportunities across the kind of organisation that a university is. The other category would be graduate students. Their numbers are increasing in our very research-productive institutions in the UK. They want exposure to academic life, so they are very frequently offered opportunities demonstrating, tutoring and occasionally teaching.

Chair

Much of that sounds, on the face of it, perfectly reasonable. We understand the precedents about sick absence and the question of specialists. The example that is always given to us is the barrister who is barristering all the rest of the time and comes in just for the odd lecture here and there. We accept that. We accept the principle of seasonal peaks, though of course there are issues about whether or not those are done on short-term contracts rather than zero hours, with all the uncertainty and so on. We understand the principle of work opportunities when it is presented in that way, but of course the work opportunities issue perceived by those who are engaged in those opportunities is not always quite as favourable as you have presented it. Presumably you have read the UCU evidence and seen their material; they take the view that many people who are providing essentially mainline core services are being kept on vulnerable terms and conditions in a way that they would not wish to be if they could possibly avoid it. Leaving aside, to some extent, the first four, which I can understand, although we may come back to seasonal, the use of students as lecturing and tutorial staff is a bit of an abuse, is it not?

Helen Fairfoul

I would argue that it is not, but it might be appropriate to hear from the experience of a couple of our institutions.

Sheila Gupta

If it would be helpful. One of the really attractive opportunities that postgraduate students appreciate in coming to universities is certainly access to research and teaching opportunities. These people are full-time research students or full-time masters students, so there are limits on how much time they can work. They also see these as the opportunity to carry out tutoring and demonstrating roles. They are not actually jobs. They are very much career opportunities and the opportunity to earn additional income. It is not that these people are carrying out the full academic role as it is conceived. For example, a tutor may well do a limited piece of teaching or a limited tutorial, but it will be planned. They will not actually have done any of the planning of the curriculum. A demonstrator will likewise go in and support practical work in a laboratory. A researcher will go in and assist with a research programme. They use established research methodologies for gathering data, and interpreting it and analysing it. The next step up for somebody who has perhaps already acquired their first degree is a postgraduate qualification. They may, for example, teach on one particular course or they may assist in writing research proposals. Those people, certainly at Edinburgh, have access to the postgraduate certificate of academic practice. It is a very professional approach, but they don’t have the opportunity to do it as a full-time job. It is not a full-time role. A full-time academic, by contrast, is somebody who would have to plan and lead the curriculum, and design, deliver and be accountable for the quality of that curriculum. In terms of their research work, they would actually have to write the research proposal. They would have to earn the grant; they would have to win the income. A completely different level of proficiency and complexity is involved. Edinburgh University would never use tutors and demonstrators to fill a substantive academic role; they fulfil very different priorities.

Christine Barr

The requirement upon tutors and demonstrators to contribute in terms of teaching or research is very much one of work experience and skills development as part of the overall curriculum. Within the environment at the University of Glasgow the expectation is that those individuals would contribute as part of a teaching or research team. In relation to the exposure that they would have, they would be involved in tutorial-type work, where they would be accompanied by a full-scale career academic, or indeed a professor, in undertaking that activity. They would contribute to that process. Similarly, in a demonstrating-type activity they would be accompanied by a technician who is very experienced in that type of activity, as Sheila described.

Chair

You seem to be suggesting, Christine, that the people we are referring to are always working under close supervision, and that it is basically just a work opportunity. They are like apprentices.

Christine Barr

Effectively.

Chair

They are not undertaking any core functions like lecturing or tutorials.

Christine Barr

They would certainly be undertaking tutorials, having gone through a suitable induction and training and development programme, after a suitable period of time, but certainly not in year one of a doctoral programme. They would not be expected to undertake a tutorial, for example, on their own without having been fully inducted, trained and developed in accordance with a similar certificate in—

Chair

We are coming on to that later. Everybody who is undertaking a teaching or a supervisory role would have been put through some training or appropriate development. Is that correct? I suppose it is a question for you, Helen, because we are discussing covering the whole of the sector. Everybody in that position is required to have undertaken some training provision?

Helen Fairfoul

I don’t pretend to be able to endorse exactly what goes on in every institution; there are 164 of them in the UK. I would certainly say, from what we see of employment practice in our member institutions, that the development of graduate assistant programmes and introductions to teaching—all that sort of thing—is absolutely well embedded across the sector. I would expect to see it in institutions, yes.

Lindsay Roy

You said that people on short-term or zero hours contracts are provided with training. Is that universal?

Helen Fairfoul

I think that question is similar to the one I was just trying to answer from the Chair. I cannot sit here and vouch for the practice in every employing institution in the UK. I am afraid it is a level of detail that the Employers Association simply does not hold.

Chair

At the moment we are not dealing with the UK; we are dealing with Scotland. Secondly, it would be helpful if you clarified whether or not it was an obligation upon them. You can’t obviously be expected to police them all, but is it an obligation upon them to provide people with training before they go out and undertake these roles?

Helen Fairfoul

I would be confident that the employers—let’s speak for the employers in Scotland—would be absolutely cognisant of the need to train anybody they put in front of students with basic skills.

Chair

So that is a yes. We should not find that anybody has been put in that role without training?

Helen Fairfoul

I believe so, and I would hope that my colleagues here would confirm that.

Lindsay Roy

It is very right to have that aspiration. How do you know it is happening in practice?

Helen Fairfoul

That is a level of detail that my association does not do. We are an employers’ representative body and obviously you have invited two employers here to answer for what the employment practice is on the ground.

Christine Barr

The nature of the operation at the University of Glasgow is such that responsibility for the recruitment and, indeed, the training and development of those individuals is managed at a local level. In speaking directly with heads of schools and directors of research institutes that are involved directly in that process, obviously each discipline is extremely different. The nature of the training and development for that subject or discipline may be different; for example, for someone engaged in language training the nature of the induction and training period will be different from someone engaged in the delivery of a science subject. That is the arrangement at the University of Glasgow.

Chair

We understand that. We are not here to go into the detail of the scheme. What we want to be clear on, irrespective of the fact that the arrangements will be different, is whether or not there is some obligation to provide training for people who are undertaking these roles.

Christine Barr

There is.

Lindsay Roy

I am looking at more than an obligation; I am looking at a practical reality. How do universities know that it is happening on the ground? How do they monitor it?

Christine Barr

It is regularly monitored and reviewed, as I say, at a local level through the line management structure and through the conduct of the training itself. It is conducted by the research or the teaching team within which individuals are functioning. That is how it would happen at local level.

Lindsay Roy

In Glasgow there is 100% compliance.

Christine Barr

Under the policy within the University of Glasgow that would occur.

Lindsay Roy

That is the policy. I am talking about the practice.

Christine Barr

Based on the heads of school I work with, yes.

Lindsay Roy

Is that the same in Edinburgh?

Sheila Gupta

At Edinburgh we moved all our staff from hours to be notified contracts on to guaranteed hours contracts specifically to reinforce how important they are as a part of the work force. We did that last September. We made a commitment to move away from hours to be notified, which also carried full terms and conditions and access to the pension scheme. They were never zero hours contracts in the way that they are broadly understood to be in the press. Having said that, we have a tutoring and demonstrating handbook. It is the responsibility of programme managers, graduate teaching officers and module managers to ensure that they apply the principles and practice of that handbook. There is a general university-level orientation offered to tutors and demonstrators, which is provided by a central institute for academic development, so there is consistency of practice in terms of general orientation. They are given a grounding in what constitutes effective tutoring and effective demonstrating, and how to deal with general skills of feedback and assessment. At a school level, there is subject-specific orientation and skills-specific training. For example, if someone is dealing with fieldwork, one would have training in fieldwork and health and safety issues, because it is critical. We cannot send our students out if they don’t have that. They would also be trained in other specialist skills such as mathematical and computing techniques. It is very much ingrained at an institutional level and a local level, to ensure that our tutors and demonstrators are prepared properly for the roles and the opportunities that they undertake.

Lindsay Roy

Are they universally paid for their training?

Sheila Gupta

We now offer guaranteed hours so they are paid for the whole proportion of that which they undertake. That is what the guaranteed hours contract permits.

Chair

I am not quite sure what that meant. I think the question was are they paid while they are undertaking the training?

Sheila Gupta

They are paid for the training, the marking, the preparation and every aspect of what they are doing.

Chair

I just wanted to be specific on that. Coming back to Ms Fairfoul, is being paid for the training a standard provision throughout the sector?

Helen Fairfoul

I would say it is pretty standard.

Chair

I am not asking whether or not it is pretty standard. Is there a central obligation? Do you as an organisation have a rule that says (a) people should be undertaking training or given the opportunity for training; and (b) should be paid for doing it?

Helen Fairfoul

No. As an organisation that is not our function. We don’t police or invent rules for the universities. They are mature, large, autonomous employers in their own right. We collect a lot of data. We monitor. We advise. That is why I understood you had invited employers to come and speak for themselves. You need to ask at employer level what the detail of practice is.

Lindsay Roy

Would it surprise you to know that we have had some evidence that people are not paid for preparation for teaching, preparation for marking and preparation for giving feedback, all part of their quality assured experience?

Christine Barr

I can comment on the position at the University of Glasgow. On the basis of hours that individuals are engaged in tutoring or teaching activity, they would receive the equivalent of 0.5 for every hour engaged in a teaching or tutorial capacity.

Lindsay Roy

Half an hour for preparation.

Christine Barr

Half an hour for every hour. There is 0.5 for development time for any course or programme they are developing; and the equivalent of an hour as a minimum for marking for the purposes of the assignment, examination, coursework or whatever they may be marking. That is the provision as a minimum.

Lindsay Roy

Is that per student?

Christine Barr

Per student based on what they are doing. It depends on the nature of the subject discipline. It might be appropriate that they are paid a greater proportion, but that is the minimum.

Lindsay Roy

To clarify, if you had eight students in a tutorial you would have four hours’ preparation time and eight hours for marking.

Christine Barr

Depending on the number of assessments, coursework and examinations they had to mark. As I say, it is discretion at a local level based on the nature of the subject discipline.

Lindsay Roy

How is that work quality assured? People want the very best experience at university.

Christine Barr

In a similar way to that I described, whereby they would be part of a teaching team. We operate a process of second marking, oversight and supervision of work, particularly work that tutors and demonstrators are undertaking, to ensure that there is appropriate QA.

Lindsay Roy

Is that universal throughout Glasgow University?

Christine Barr

That is universal throughout the university.

Lindsay Roy

Is it the same position in Edinburgh?

Sheila Gupta

When we moved to guaranteed hours at Edinburgh we ensured that people were paid for every aspect of what they did: preparation, marking, assessment, teaching and demonstrating. Our quality assurance is evaluated externally by Quality Assurance Agency Scotland. We recently had an enhancement-led institutional review. The review found overarching confidence in the quality assurance processes at the university, which covered the student experience, monitoring and reviewing the quality of our programmes and ensuring that the quality of our programmes was absolutely appropriate in terms of the degrees we were conferring. There was overarching confidence in Edinburgh’s quality assurance processes. Those are underpinned by internal programme reviews, where we have externality as well.

Lindsay Roy

Did that focus on the students?

Sheila Gupta

It is every aspect of the learning experience. It will evaluate not just—

Lindsay Roy

Those on guaranteed hours are included.

Sheila Gupta

Guaranteed hours cover every aspect: the preparation, the teaching or demonstrating and the assessment afterwards. That is the whole intention of having something that clear cut. There is transparency and there isn’t an opportunity for not understanding what one is actually being paid for.

Lindsay Roy

Green lights throughout; no amber and no reds in terms of provision.

Sheila Gupta

In terms of how the guaranteed hours process is working, it seems to be very well understood. We introduced it in September. Clearly we are still in the first year of it. We very much intend to review it and see how that first year ran to ensure that it was a green light process. If at the end of that first year we discover that there are any ambers—we are sure there aren’t any reds—we will absolutely pick that up. The other issue for us is continuous improvement. If there are issues that we find are fuzzy or still unclear, of course we will pick them up.

Helen Fairfoul

If it would be helpful, I could give an overview comment on the general approach that we see in the sector around apportionments of time with teaching. I certainly looked at the evidence you heard from one of your witnesses, who suggested that if she calculated back from her hourly rate she thought she was only being paid £1 or £2 an hour, which would be a pretty horrifying scenario. I would be utterly confident that that is not the practice embedded in the contractual arrangement. In essence for many years now, and in fact through some guidance documents that we worked up with the trade unions, a baseline model has been applied. Essentially a formula is applied so that for every hour of teaching most institutions will apply a formula. There are variations around it. It often varies by discipline, but the variation around it is two and a half for every hour’s teaching. If you use that calculation of £15 per hour teaching, and of course teaching sessions quite often come in at more than an hour, you would probably be paid closer to £40. You would really struggle to work out how you could be getting an hourly rate of £1 or £2. If you were saying for that hour’s teaching, “I needed to do 37 or 40 hours of preparation,” it would be an extraordinary situation for a graduate student. Given the assessment and selection process that goes into assigning graduate students these opportunities, it really would be completely extraordinary that any leader of that teaching team would allow a situation to arise where the student needed to do a week’s work in order to deliver one hour of teaching. It would be quite extraordinary.

Lindsay Roy

In terms of the lecturing process we have been told that on occasion PhD students are used. Are they paid for preparation, lecture time and a follow-up?

Chair

Unfortunately Hansard does not record nodding, so I am afraid that if you want to express a view you have to say something.

Lindsay Roy

At what level are they paid?

Christine Barr

Those engaged in lecturing at the University of Glasgow would be paid on a similar basis to that outlined for those engaged in specialist lectures.

Lindsay Roy

A similar level of salary to a full-time lecturer.

Christine Barr

It would be consistent with the nature of the duties that they are undertaking, depending on the particular role. For example, a demonstrator would be based on a different grade to a tutor. A tutor would be paid at a different grade to a lecturer and so on. It would be conducive to the nature of the work that is being undertaken.

Lindsay Roy

Are those who are expected to fill in on occasion trained prior to this?

Christine Barr

Yes. It would operate on the basis of a pool.

Lindsay Roy

There is a pool of available students.

Christine Barr

Yes, or specialist lecturers for that purpose.

Chair

Before I turn to Pamela to pick up a point, let me clarify this. Ms Fairfoul, you mentioned that most institutions would apply the formula. That implies that some don’t.

Helen Fairfoul

There will be variations on the formula. A lot of this will be what has been worked out in local consultation discussions with the trade unions at a local level.

Chair

I understand the general principle that different subjects will have a different formula. The impression you gave was that there is best practice, which is that there is a formula, but not everybody necessarily abides by it, which implies that some don’t.

Helen Fairfoul

No; I didn’t mean to imply that. What I meant to imply is that there is a general formula and we found something very akin to that formula in institutions.

Chair

There will be those who, believe it or not, watch this either live or subsequently, or who read the evidence, so nobody should come back to us and say, “This doesn’t apply in the institution in which I work.” Is that right?

Helen Fairfoul

For teaching hours and tutoring hours, they should not come back with any assertion that they are being paid without due account being taken for necessary preparation, marking or other aspects of the development of the programme they are engaged in. I would not expect to see that in any institution. I hope my colleagues would agree.

Pamela Nash

We heard evidence from UCU that they had done quite a small survey, it has to be said, at the University of Edinburgh; 83% of those included in the survey were tutors. From that survey, they said that 40% did not get paid for preparation time and 48% did not get paid for marking; and they went on to say that 31% had been on zero hours contracts for four or more years. Only two thirds of them had received specific training for the role they were in. Do you not recognise that, in terms of what they said about not getting paid for their preparation time?

Sheila Gupta

It is very interesting. I do not know about that particular survey but my position on this would be very clear, which is that there was perhaps a lack of transparency previously under the old HTBN model. That might be what is coming through in that survey.

Pamela Nash

Are you saying that staff members were getting paid but they didn’t know they were getting paid for preparation time?

Sheila Gupta

I think that is very often the case. People are often not clear about what they are being paid for. There is a lack of clarity.

Pamela Nash

They picked out specific examples. There was someone who said that the University of Edinburgh pays one hour preparation time for each hour of tutoring. Is that still the case?

Sheila Gupta

That is one person’s interpretation. If I can just answer your question, I think what we had in essence under the old hours to be notified system was a lack of clarity. It did come out of this sense of “What am I being paid for?” By moving to guaranteed hours we have addressed that issue, so people should not be confused about whether they are being paid for preparation or not, or whether they are being paid for marking or not. All of that should be absolutely clear now. In terms of driving this forward, it has been led by the locally devolved HR teams working with local management so that people are being issued with contracts. We have always done that, but people get written contracts and they get written terms and conditions of service. It is also all available on the web, so that if they can’t find the written version everything is accessible to them, and there is absolute clarity. In addition, people have mentors, buddies or a senior academic allocated to them. If they have a question such as, “I don’t think I’m being paid for everything I’m doing,” they have a range of people they can go to. We also have graduate teaching officers and programme managers. If there is a lack of clarity, there is no reason why they can’t go and clarify that with somebody.

Pamela Nash

I take that on board, but I have to suggest that this is not just people who are on zero hours contracts, or hours to be notified contracts. Although I appreciate that you are saying there might have been a lack of clarity in the past about what people were getting paid for, those are certainly not the issues being raised. It is quite specific: people are saying they know what they are getting paid for, but it is not enough. It was raised earlier—in fact you mentioned it yourself—that we had evidence that someone felt they were getting paid well below the minimum wage when they factored in all the preparation work. I do not think that would come from a lack of clarity on the contracts. For them it is a simple calculation—how many hours are they actually working divided by how much they are getting paid. If that works out at less than the minimum wage, either there is a problem with the pay and the contract, or they are spending far too long marking and preparing for their classes.

Sheila Gupta

I can certainly tell you what the hourly rates are. Perhaps before I do, I should say that we work in direct partnership with UCU and our other recognised trade unions. On this, it is clearly UCU. Colleagues in my team are working with them on a continuous basis. They are probably having weekly meetings with UCU about a whole range of things. We are very open to the unions coming to us and bringing any issues, because if there are issues out there we want to know about them and we want to address those practices. It is our aim and ambition to be sector-leading as an employer. I can say that none of the points you mentioned has been brought to me. They have not been brought to my colleague, because she has not mentioned them to me either. If those are issues, I am very happy to go back from this meeting and speak to our local union officers and say, “Look, if there are things that we need to know about, share them with us.” Certainly they have not been raised and we do encourage that. In terms of hourly rates, just to give you a sense, if people are coming in on the first level of opportunity, where I was talking about doing quite prescribed research or tutoring, the bottom point is £13.76 an hour and the top discretionary point is £17.41, which I think is an attractive proposition when you are a full-time student. The level above that, which is more specialist training or helping to write research proposals and assisting research, starts at £16.41 an hour and goes up to £21.39 an hour. That is way above the national minimum working rate. I am very confident that we are paying people very fairly.

Pamela Nash

No one has raised an issue with us, as far as I am aware, about the contracted hourly rate; it is the fact that they are working more hours and are required to work many more hours than they are contracted for in order to do their job properly. Therefore that brings down considerably the actual wage that they are paid.

Sheila Gupta

I understand the point.

Chair

Let me be clear. I am genuinely surprised at what you said to us about not being aware of some of the points that Pamela raised with you—when you say you do not recognise this. To some extent we are working off the written evidence on the use of zero hours contracts in Scottish universities submitted by the University of Edinburgh’s joint union liaison committee. Then there is an electronic survey of members and non-members, November 2012 to January 2013, which gives all these figures. Are you saying that you have never ever seen this?

Sheila Gupta

Yes. I have never ever seen it. The joint union liaison committee is a committee of the unions. It is not a management committee. We have a combined joint committee.

Chair

But they have never raised these issues with you.

Sheila Gupta

They have never raised these issues with me. If they had—

Chair

How long have you been in post?

Sheila Gupta

Seven years.

Chair

That would suggest you were around when this was being discussed.

Sheila Gupta

Absolutely.

Chair

We had a witness before who was basically saying, “It was before my time,” and that he had only been there a couple of weeks. We are awake to that one.

Sheila Gupta

I am not using that excuse. I can say with confidence that those particular points, which are important points and I note that very much, have not been raised with me. We have the unions in our offices all the time. We work very closely with them, so it is interesting.

Pamela Nash

The fact is that they have raised it with us. We would need to go back to them; I do not know why that has not been raised with yourself. That would cause me concern too, but it is them who raised it and not us. I would hope that that is something that would give you some concern.

Sheila Gupta

I will certainly go back from this meeting and have conversations with them. In fact, I am meeting one of our university level UCU elected officers tomorrow. I will certainly raise it with her.

Pamela Nash

I do not mean to pick on you, Sheila, but we had those very specific comments about the University of Edinburgh. I want to ask Christine about Glasgow and the same issues. You spoke a little bit to Mr Roy about the fact that people are concerned that academic staff—not just at the University of Glasgow but in Scotland—are not being paid adequately for preparation and marking time. Is this something that comes up with the unions at Glasgow University? Is it raised by staff?

Christine Barr

I work with the trade unions consistently. The policy to which I have referred was in fact agreed jointly with the trade unions when it was introduced in academic session 2009-10. I am working with them at this moment in time to review that policy, and it is right and proper that we do that. It is fair to say that when the policy was introduced it was recognised as progressive in identifying exactly the minimum amount of time that would be paid for preparation, assessment, marking and feedback-type activities. Historically, there had been issues of the nature you described, where people did not feel that they were being appropriately recompensed for the amount of time that was being put in. In general terms, if there are issues of an individual nature, they would be raised directly through the heads of HR within each of the colleges in the University of Glasgow. Those would be processed to conclusion. That would be the process through which they would be dealt with at a local level at Glasgow, or they would be raised directly with me through the relevant trade union representative.

Pamela Nash

How do you keep track of the actual hours that staff are working? How do you analyse that?

Christine Barr

To refer again to the policy, we regularly monitor and review the number of hours, and indeed the salary levels that people are paid. That is managed through the HR teams within the devolved structure. They regularly review that information, particularly in terms of those engaged in variable hours employment-type arrangements to ensure that they are on the appropriate set of terms and conditions. If it is appropriate, they will transfer individuals to more formalised contractual arrangements, such as annualised hours or part-time fractional appointments and so on. That occurs regularly. Certainly there are differences within each of the areas. Some monitor it monthly on a rolling basis. Some monitor it quarterly, and others monitor it yearly.

Pamela Nash

In different departments?

Christine Barr

It is across the four colleges that we have within the University of Glasgow. At a central level we also monitor it regularly. It is something that is regularly monitored and reviewed. We pursue individuals accordingly in relation to the consultation process around the nature of the contractual arrangements for their circumstances in terms of the pattern of hours that they may be working over a period of time.

Pamela Nash

Can I ask Edinburgh University as well what procedures are in place there to keep track of staff members?

Sheila Gupta

This is managed at school level. We have graduate teaching officers. They will have local processes. They align the number of hours that are required for tutoring and demonstrating. That is how they will track them. It is just part of an established process and works quite effectively. Now, with the guaranteed hours, it makes it much easier because you are not dealing with something that keeps changing. By moving to a more systematic model, if you like, the whole process of monitoring to check how many hours people are doing is quite clear. The other point to make is that even when we had hours to be notified contracts that were open-ended—

Pamela Nash

Sorry. I do not understand that. Would staff members’ hours not be changing throughout the year depending on what stage it was in the assessment cycle?

Sheila Gupta

The way the guaranteed hours contract works—I will just make the figures up—is that somebody might be offered 20 hours in semester one, which they accept and that is fine. That might be all they want because they want to spend semester two writing up their thesis. However, at the start of the year the programme manager, through the graduate teaching office, will say, “Do you want to do 20 hours in semester one and a further 20 hours in semester two?” That will already be recorded, and you know when those hours are being worked because of the timetable. There is no need to do any additional monitoring of that. They are going to get paid for that. The basis of the model is quite a different one. The only difference would be, for example, if somebody was offered additional hours on top of that, which could be possible, and then that would go on the record as well.

Pamela Nash

But what if it takes them more hours to prepare or mark than was first estimated?

Sheila Gupta

The whole point of the guaranteed hours model is that all of that is factored in when they are offered the work in the first place. Clearly if there is an unforeseen additional set of hours that had to be carried out by this person, for whatever reason, we would take that into account and pay them for it. The payroll process is automatic.

Pamela Nash

Is there a mechanism for that in the contract? Can they contact someone and say, “There are more hours of preparation required for this than expected?”

Sheila Gupta

And it goes into the payroll system and gets paid automatically. All the terms and conditions are calculated on the basis of the actual hours worked in addition. It is the minimum plus anything more somebody has done.

Pamela Nash

Is there any variation between departments or is that throughout the University of Edinburgh?

Sheila Gupta

There will be disciplinary variations but all of that is taken into account at the beginning. For example, somebody doing demonstrating work is obviously doing less preparation time than someone doing a tutorial where they have to do quite a lot of preparation. All of that is agreed in advance.

Pamela Nash

Christine, I touched on it earlier but are there any differences between the colleges within the University of Glasgow on policy and whether people should be paid for preparation and marking, and how much they get paid for it?

Christine Barr

It is a consistent policy across the university.

Pamela Nash

Helen, how does getting the payment that is made for preparation and marking work compare in your knowledge of other universities? How are the actual hours worked by staff kept track of and analysed?

Helen Fairfoul

I can’t give guarantees because that is not what my association does, but I would expect to see exactly the sorts of practices that you have had described existing across institutions. Just as a general comment, and I think it is a feature across any work force, when people are very new to a job they take a bit longer to do it, and then they get faster. I have worked with academics for many years in universities, so I know what it is like when they have to start a new course. They say it is a lot harder work in the first few weeks and it then gets easier. There is something of the swing and the roundabout in an allocation model that continues to give a sizeable chunk of preparation around every piece to be taught, recognising—

Chair

I think we would take the view that as long as the process for deciding these things is there, the haggling over the detail is not something on which we would want to focus.

Helen Fairfoul

It is what academic managers do; it is their job to supervise the staff.

Graeme Morrice

Looking at those on zero hours contracts in Scottish universities, as far as you are aware, to what extent are there similarities with those on permanent contracts? For example, if you have a lecturer on a zero hours contract and they are unable to do a lecture because of ill health, are they paid sick pay?

Christine Barr

In relation to the University of Glasgow, those employed on variable hours contracts and on a zero hours basis enjoy the same terms and conditions as a full-time equivalent member of staff. They would be entitled to holiday, sick pay and sick leave entitlement. It would include aspects like career development performance and development review. They would have the same access to the full facilities within the University of Glasgow as a full-time equivalent person but on a pro rata basis, including access to our pension schemes and so on.

Graeme Morrice

That sounds good in Glasgow, but are there any differences?

Christine Barr

Within the University of Glasgow, no.

Graeme Morrice

What about Edinburgh?

Sheila Gupta

At Edinburgh all of our previous hours to be notified contracts and our guaranteed hours contracts have always had the complete and full terms and conditions enjoyed by all other members of staff—full holiday pay, sickness, maternity and full access to pensions.

Chair

That would be the gold standard. You have no way of knowing whether or not that applies to all your members.

Helen Fairfoul

I have no way of assuring you that I know, but I can tell you that the higher education sector has had the principles around pay grading and equal pay embedded in it for a decade now. My association, prior to my time in my association, was responsible for negotiating with the trade unions a whole framework for embedding new pay and grading structures, pay transparency and job evaluation systems in universities. It has been a feature of university terms and conditions and the setting of terms of conditions. The issues around the calculation of appropriate hourly rates, drawing those from appropriate pay bands, and transparency around the other terms and conditions are something that I know universities across the UK have been dealing with for many years.

Graeme Morrice

You are saying it is the same situation across the entire university network in Scotland.

Helen Fairfoul

I would certainly expect to see it across the whole university network, based on what I know of the work they have been doing for the last decade, yes. I should say that is in partnership with their trade unions.

Graeme Morrice

In terms of those on zero hours contracts, we talked earlier about the whole issue of transparency and it was suggested that it was not always transparent, though hopefully things have improved. Are people aware of their terms and conditions when they are on zero hours contracts? Do they fully understand the situation, particularly with regard to expectations about the hours that they work?

Christine Barr

In the University of Glasgow they are issued with a full set of written particulars of terms and conditions of employment, which detail each aspect of their terms and conditions and the fact that they are engaged as a zero hours employee.

Graeme Morrice

I did not quite pick up on what you said at the beginning. Are you saying they are in effect provided with a written contract?

Christine Barr

They are provided with a written contract of terms and conditions of employment.

Graeme Morrice

What about Edinburgh?

Sheila Gupta

At Edinburgh, everybody is given an offer letter and written terms and conditions of employment. We also have all our terms and conditions of employment on the web. If people lose their hard copy somewhere, they have immediate access to absolutely everything. We have always ensured that each person engaged has exactly the same experience as a professor. They get the full pack.

Graeme Morrice

Helen, what is the position across the HE sector?

Helen Fairfoul

I was expecting that question.

Graeme Morrice

It was a no-brainer that I was going to ask that.

Helen Fairfoul

Again I can be confident that it is absolutely standard practice for universities to issue written terms and conditions. Going back many years, when I worked in a university and when a lot of the casual engagement was done at a localised level, they went to huge lengths to establish pro forma contracts with terms and conditions very clearly set out so that there could be no confusion, even when people had been engaged on a casual level at arm’s length in the institution.

Chair

So we should not find anybody coming to us saying that they do not have clarity in their terms and conditions or a written contract if they are undertaking work for their educational establishment.

Helen Fairfoul

You should not find that.

Jim McGovern

I realise that the reason we asked you to come here and provide evidence today mostly concerned tutorial staff. Given that you, Christine, and Sheila are heads of human resources I imagine you are responsible for everyone who is directly employed within the university. Are there zero hours contracts among support staff, for example, catering staff, cleaning staff and janitorial staff?

Christine Barr

There are some.

Jim McGovern

Why is that?

Christine Barr

It is where their requirement for work is ad hoc, unpredictable and irregular. The kinds of things I would be thinking about are exam invigilation, student helpers and unique conference and banquet-type events that are outwith the norm.

Jim McGovern

We have heard in other evidence sessions about people on zero hours contracts who are not allowed to work for anyone else; it is called exclusivity. They have to sit waiting for a phone call hoping they might get a day’s work every so often.

Christine Barr

The zero hours terms and conditions of employment do not have an exclusivity clause within the University of Glasgow.

Jim McGovern

What about Edinburgh?

Sheila Gupta

It is the same for Edinburgh. Our guaranteed hours do not have exclusivity. Our hours to be notified never had exclusivity. We have never, ever exercised that. We have never wanted to have it in our contracts.

Jim McGovern

Are the support staff that I mentioned—catering, cleaning and janitorial—directly employed by the universities?

Christine Barr

In relation to Glasgow, catering, cleaning and janitorial staff are directly employed. Catering and janitorial staff are on substantive contracts of set hours of work. They are not on zero hours employment.

Sheila Gupta

At the University of Edinburgh it is a fundamental value that we directly employ all of our staff. We don’t want to have people on contract arrangements. We do not want agency staff. One of the reasons underpinning that value is that we want everyone working at the University of Edinburgh to be on the same terms and conditions of service. We feel it would be wrong to have a two-tier work force; we just think that would be fundamentally unacceptable.

Chair

I want to follow that up to clarify it. We have heard from various organisations about the peaks and troughs. It has been suggested by some companies that having to use zero hours contracts when you have peaks and troughs is quite often just a question of lazy or poor management, and that they are not making sufficient effort to make sure that they are allocating people time throughout the year or the week. How would you respond to that?

Christine Barr

For the University of Glasgow, in relation to tutorials and our tutors and demonstrators, work force planning occurs on the basis of at least a semester. Individuals would be very clear for at least a four to six-month period ahead, and in some cases a year ahead, what their requirements would be for that session. In relation to support staff, it would be on the basis of at least a month ahead. That is again detailed in the terms and conditions of the zero hours contract.

Chair

Would Edinburgh be equivalent?

Sheila Gupta

It would. We believe that in most areas of our work we have a clear sense of the trends, and where the hours are required. We think we can do that in an annual planning model.

Chair

Looking at colleges and universities generally, if Edinburgh and Glasgow can do it, there should be no need for anybody else to have people on zero hours contracts where they are sitting by the phone just waiting to hear whether or not they are called, even for the non-academic spheres. Is that fair?

Helen Fairfoul

I think most employers will need a casual element in their work force. That is probably what we would observe across most universities. They are no different from other employers; there will be short-term needs and there will be peaks and troughs. If you choose to put in a zero hours framework, it may be an entirely suitable framework. We know that it works very well. We have had very positive feedback in a lot of institutions where students are employed for a year. They can say, “We will open this contract. I want to work for the university. I would like to take job opportunities as they arise when it suits me, with no exclusivity clauses at all.” They can go and work for Asda, McDonald’s or whoever else, but they like working at the university. It is often very interesting work experience doing things like ambassadorial work, which they love.

Chair

I think you are getting away from the point. There is always a justification of the status quo. Has any assessment been made of whether or not people on these sorts of short contracts want more hours?

Helen Fairfoul

The indication, certainly from students, who are a lot of the casual work force in institutions, is that they appreciate it when they get offered work. They like to be able to turn it down when they don’t want the work, or when they are busy. They appreciate the fact that the university understands that exam time is a very bad time to ask them to work and that it will not rely on them as a part of the work force at that time of year. On whether individuals who are on casual working arrangements want more working hours, I do not think any employer can legislate for the fact that some may want more and some may want less.

Chair

I can understand the joys of working for the university at £17 an hour. The joys of working for McDonald’s for less are not as immediately apparent. People having to go off to work for McDonald’s or other places suggests that they would much rather work for you but they are not going to get as many hours from you as they might want. Would you accept that?

Helen Fairfoul

Not necessarily, but there is a finite limit and most universities will only ever want the causal variable part of their work force to be a small component, just as my colleagues have described.

Graeme Morrice

Picking up on the aspect of recruitment in your various universities and across the board, how are teaching staff recruited to zero hours contracts? Are these openly advertised? Is there a transparent selection process? How does it work?

Christine Barr

On an annual basis, a call will go out for the requirement for tutors or demonstrators or whatever. Arguably, given the fact that we have 17,000 students potentially available, there is a ready-made pool. If it is appropriate to a particular subject discipline, it may be that we go external, but the norm would be that it would be advertised within broadly the subject discipline. We then go through a recruitment and selection process based on the job description and the individual’s ability to meet the requirements of that role. There is certainly no mandate or obligation on the individual to do so. It is to complement their studies. That is the process that would be gone through on an annual basis. Obviously the nature of the student provision is that they are there for a year or whatever the period of time may be. That is the process. It is on a devolved basis at school level, but that would be managed. Beyond that, on appointment, they would go through the training and development process to which we referred earlier.

Graeme Morrice

Is it the same situation in Edinburgh, Sheila?

Sheila Gupta

At Edinburgh, because they are career opportunities—they are not jobs; they are very much opportunities—each school takes responsibility for advertising that opportunity. There is a definition of what responsibilities are covered by it and the selection criteria: what qualities are being sought? There is an assessment process to see to what extent the person coming forward matches the criteria by looking at their CV. A selection process is gone through, but it is very much managed at the school level. That is because you want to ensure disciplinary expertise and so forth.

Graeme Morrice

Helen, you probably know what I am going to ask you.

Helen Fairfoul

Again, I would absolutely expect to see that sort of practice. Those are the answers I expected them to give—talking about the opportunities that are being made available, particularly to graduate students. There was an example of a Scottish institution that advertised in the media for zero hours specialists very recently. I picked it up because it was relevant to this Committee. The story was that they were chided by the unions for advertising zero hours contracts, but what they were doing was being very transparent. They were saying that what they wanted was very specific specialists for particular programmes and—

Chair

They were not being chided for advertising; they were being chided for having zero hours contracts.

Helen Fairfoul

I think they were being chided for having the temerity to advertise zero hours contracts in an environment where they are de facto considered to be something that is problematic. Whereas what they were saying was that they have a small part—

Chair

We had this discussion with our previous witnesses. There is a question about what are zero hours and what is short term or finite? It is the question of the barrister or advocate case. If you are advertising for two hours because you only want two hours of that particular course, it seems perfectly reasonable that that is advertised as two hours because that is all you need. Graeme is raising the question whether or not that is open. The suggestion has been that there is an element of cronyism or nepotism in some of these circumstances. You are assuring me that that should not be the case.

Helen Fairfoul

I would not expect that to be the case. I think the allegations of cronyism or favouritism relate to the sense that students feel that, if they don’t do what a head of department expects, they won’t get an offer of work. I would not expect our sophisticated institutions, with channels for complaint and so forth, to allow that sort of situation to arise.

Chair

Yes. It is a bit like if you don’t write what a lecturer wants in your essay you don’t get a good mark. It is the same sort of argument, in a sense. It is whether or not people accept that, as the case might be.

Lindsay Roy

In response to a question from Pamela, Sheila and Christine presented a picture of sunshine and roses compared to what was there before. How many complaints have you had about short-term and zero hours contracts in the last year within your organisation?

Sheila Gupta

I personally have not received a single complaint—not a single formal complaint.

Lindsay Roy

Any concern?

Sheila Gupta

The only dialogue that I have had has been with the trade unions, as I think I said previously, looking at new models of employment. We recognise that there are better ways of engaging people.

Lindsay Roy

That was a corporate dialogue.

Sheila Gupta

I do not know what you mean by corporate dialogue.

Chair

The unions and the university as a whole rather than individuals raising individual complaints.

Sheila Gupta

Yes; it was not an individual. It was very much in dialogue with the unions.

Lindsay Roy

Christine, what about yourself and Glasgow?

Christine Barr

I have been approached by about three people in the last year in relation to the nature of their zero hours contract. I too have been engaged in a corporate dialogue with the trade unions.

Lindsay Roy

And their concerns were?

Christine Barr

Their concerns were that they believed they had reached a threshold where there should be more formalised contractual arrangements, and those should be taken forward to conclusion.

Lindsay Roy

Were you able to address that?

Christine Barr

We were.

Chair

I am conscious that a couple of you have planes to catch.

Lindsay Roy

We’ll finish before nine o’clock.

Chair

Yes—the midnight sleeper. We’ll try to finish before then. In terms of the reports that we got back, it struck me that the University of Edinburgh seems to have addressed this quite seriously, and much more so than the University of Glasgow. Would you accept that as being true? Glasgow seems to be much more defensive about its use of zero hours. With Edinburgh it is the sinner that repented; they have said, “Look, there were some bad things that went on in the past, but we are now trying to change this and we are in constructive dialogue.” Glasgow seems to be much more defensive about the status quo. Is that fair?

Christine Barr

The University of Glasgow, as I said, is working with the trade unions to review its policy with a view to minimising and reducing the number of variable hours contracts. That is the position we are in as we speak. That work is ongoing. You will appreciate from the discussion we have had that it is a fairly major exercise. It involves individual consultation with each individual in that circumstance. As I indicated in my written evidence, the intention from a university perspective is that we use a variety of different employment practices and arrangements. We firmly believe that one size does not fit all in terms of reducing that number. We believe we will use a mixture of annualised and part-time contracts.

Chair

Would it be reasonable for us to say that in six months we want to review this and have observations from the UCU and yourselves to see whether or not everybody who is capable of being made happy has been made happy, and similarly across institutions as a whole? I appreciate that it is not your job to police or represent them. None the less it is reasonable for us to expect not to have complaints from other institutions as well, and that they would be following what seems to be best practice elsewhere.

Helen Fairfoul

I can certainly pick that up. I do not think there is going to be one model of best practice, and I don’t think institutions will necessarily wish to do what Edinburgh is doing. I have spoken to a lot of institutions about the kinds of arrangements that they have. I am really pleased with what we have just agreed with the trade unions. We have been in dispute with them—

Chair

It is the two Scots that have to leave, so can we come back to you in a second and first clarify whether there is anything else they wish to say? Are there any other points that you want to raise with us, Ms Gupta, before you go?

Sheila Gupta

One very important point I would like to raise, if I may, is that these opportunities are really appreciated by postgraduate students. They see it as one of the main reasons why they are attracted to come and study in the United Kingdom and at the University of Edinburgh. We would like to have the opportunity to make sure that these are seen as very attractive propositions in supporting people to prepare for an academic career, and indeed to enjoy exposure to academic opportunities that they may not otherwise have the opportunity to do. By modelling new contracts and new ways of working, we can ensure that we have a win-win, where the postgraduate students will have a very positive experience and are fairly remunerated, rewarded and recognised for the contribution they are making, but that there is no sense of a negative perception of these opportunities that might be national or international. I think that would damage UK higher education and the university as well.

Chair

This applies to both of you. We just want everybody to be happy. We would not be looking at this if we had not had people complaining to us, and if zero hours had not been seen as an example of exploitative working arrangements. We will probably want to look at this again in six months and see whether or not there are still anxieties. Your plane is slightly earlier than the Glasgow plane, so unless there is anything else you want to say, please leave us now.

Sheila Gupta

Thank you.

Chair

We will turn to Christine to clarify whether or not there is anything she wanted to say.

Christine Barr

There are a couple of things. As I have indicated, I have been working with the trade unions, as have my colleagues, for the past 10 months or so and that is ongoing. I would say that six months is a relatively short period of time. I would prefer 12 months, but I appreciate this is not a negotiation. I am being very honest with you about the time it takes to consult with individuals. The university is committed to reducing and minimising the number of variable hours contracts. However, the reality from some of the discussions we have had is that there are individuals for whom these suit their personal circumstances. They are very reluctant to move from a variable hours arrangement. That is where I am anticipating that it will take a little more time.

Chair

It comes back to the question of everybody being happy. We have raised this in other contexts. If a norm has been set, there could be objective justification for exceptions. The assumption is that zero hours are a bad thing and I think in general terms they are. Helen outlined several categories earlier on. We have accepted that trombone players or specialist barristers are exceptions. We understand that. It is a question of the balance that is struck. I would be unwilling to extend it to a year on the basis that, if you cannot show progress in six months, things need to happen. Everybody needs to be happy about the direction of travel. This is a competitive market. If Edinburgh can do it by then, I see no reason why Glasgow can’t either. It is only fair to flag up that, if we feel the need to have other sessions in six months’ time, it would not necessarily be yourselves as personnel people that we want. It might very well be the principals as well as yourselves. To be fair to you, you are not running the university—though you might wish to and think you could do a better job of it—and we appreciate there are other people involved in taking these sorts of decisions. With those caveats is there anything else you want to add before we let you escape?

Christine Barr

I would just invite you to talk to our trade unions at a local level and also our student representative council with whom we are working on this matter. There is nothing else that I would want to add. Thank you for the opportunity of speaking with you today.

Chair

Thank you. Helen—for the remaining five hours of our meeting—we were in the middle of a point before the staff told me that we had to draw things to a close to let others escape. On the sort of points that I have been making, the difficulty for us when dealing with a trade body like yourself is that all trade bodies turn round and say, “We cannae command, and people do it themselves.” Often that seems to us to be a bit of a cop-out. Short of actually bringing in every institution one by one it is difficult to see how else we pursue it, other than by speaking to yourself as the collective voice.

Helen Fairfoul

I appreciate that. I hope you do not feel I was trying to duck answering questions. I am here to speak for the sector and the Scottish institutions. I do not think there will be the same solution in every institution. I am absolutely sure that you will find a whole host of arrangements, as you have found already, because there is such diversity in the sector. What we can do at the macro level—the cross-institution level—is to have dialogue with the trade unions. I was about to explain that we offered a year ago to do some joint work with the trade unions, because they raised these concerns with us in the national dialogue. Their concerns have been a sense that there is an increase in casualisation. I have not given you all my data, but the data indicate that casualisation is not on the increase. We are interested in spending some time with them looking at the data to see if we can get to a shared understanding of what the data tell us. We have repeated this offer of joint working. On 2 June we achieved a settlement and agreement with the trade unions. They are now happy to go ahead and do joint working with us, which is great. We will be working with all five of the sector trade unions who are represented at our table. The work we are going to be doing will run from as soon as we can get members of the joint working group appointed through to February 2015. I will read the main objectives of this work because it is the agreed language: “To establish some shared understanding of how HE employers can achieve appropriate flexibility in the workforce while delivering fair and equitable employment practice.” It is that point of balance which I think one of you asked in a question. Secondly: “To achieve a better understanding of the nature and extent of contractual flexible arrangements in use in higher education, any trends in their use and examples of practice. The work would go on to identify a sample of HE case studies to illustrate examples of the staffing models in use, modes of employment, the nature of the relationship and the contractual arrangements for both academic and support staff.” The essence of this work is really trying to get to the bottom of whether there is real substance to the concerns that are being voiced by the national trade unions. I appreciate that those are some of the concerns that you have picked up.

Chair

I have had the terms of reference of the working group drawn to my attention. It did seem to me—maybe this is unfair—that this was something that had all the hallmarks of having been drawn from yourselves a bit like teeth. The language does not suggest an enthusiasm for tackling the abuses of zero hours. It suggests that you are really doing the minimum that you think you can get away with, because you have to have some discussion. I got the impression that it was maybe something you were going to enter into in the hope that it might go away in a while. If you are saying to me that that wording disguises an enthusiasm for tackling all the difficulties that have been identified and the abuses that undoubtedly take place in some locations—not across the board—then we would welcome that. I think it is reasonable again for us to say that in six months’ time we should be able to clarify whether or not substantial progress is being made, or whether there is a feeling that either yourselves collectively or some of your institutions are dragging their feet. Does that seem reasonable?

Helen Fairfoul

I do not think it is reasonable for you to think that this disguises a lack of enthusiasm. We have been pressing the trade unions to do this work with us for a year now, and we are very keen to do this work. My sense of the purpose of this work is absolutely to surface the concerns. We get anecdote and conjecture rather than facts and evidence. What we are really concerned to do is to sit down together, look at what we can learn from what is going on in the sector and look at the data together so that we agree what the challenges are, if there are challenges. If there are abuses, we would love to know what those abuses are so that we can look at the kinds of practice that would prevent any abuse of the casual labour force. There will always be a casual labour force. On your point about making everybody happy, there are certain schools of thought that there should never be any casual element of the labour force. I do not think that will ever happen. What we are concerned about as employers is that we, as an HE sector, can show and absolutely will prove that there is excellent employment practice out there. I think higher education has been completely inappropriately picked on. It is not an exemplar of rampant zero hours employment or an exemplar of bad employment practice.

Chair

To be fair, we are not just picking on you. We were late today, because we were picking on Network Rail earlier. There are other people we have been seeing over a period, so I would not like you to think that you were being unfairly selected. There again, we would not be speaking to you at all if UCU and other unions weren’t raising these issues with us. Are the meetings that you have with the UCU and the other unions negotiating meetings, or are they just exploratory meetings and then negotiations have to take place at every single institution?

Helen Fairfoul

We do not negotiate the employment arrangements at every single institution. At the national table we have a very restricted mandate for what we negotiate on behalf of the employers. It is essentially the base pay uplift for staff below professor. Absolutely everything else is down to the unions to sit down at the tables that my colleagues were describing, where they are recognised, and they negotiate the terms and conditions that will apply in local institutions. We have the ability through this kind of joint work to produce meaningful material, which can be used very proactively. What I did not say is that there is then a commitment to disseminate and communicate the findings in a report. This is not about hoping it all goes away; it is about trying to open the books to get a better and shared understanding of what the issues are around this kind of variable and casual employment.

Chair

It is reasonable then to expect, if not an actual template agreement that should be applied willy-nilly, an agreement coming from the centre about what basic principles should be pursued and an indication of the desirable direction of travel.

Helen Fairfoul

We have suggested that we would be very happy to review the principles that we have already agreed with the trade unions around casual and fixed-term working. There are some principles that my predecessors negotiated and agreed with the trade unions back in 2002, and they produced guidance material. We have committed ourselves to reviewing those principles.

Chair

When we meet you in six months, if everybody is not happy at least they should be happier.

Helen Fairfoul

We will have moved on.

Chair

Having moved on is not necessarily an enjoyable experience. In six months from now some people will be dead, so moving on is not in itself something to be pursued.

Helen Fairfoul

What I mean is that I really hope that together with the trade unions we will have moved on with a better understanding of the issues. We have encouraged them to bring forward precisely the sort of anecdote that they say causes them concern.

Chair

Are there any other points? I think we have left few issues unexplored.

Pamela Nash

I wanted to ask Glasgow and Edinburgh universities about the reviews they proposed, but we did not have time. Helen, are you aware of other universities conducting internal reviews?

Helen Fairfoul

I have certainly heard of others, yes.

Pamela Nash

Could you share that information with us?

Helen Fairfoul

As to which they are? I do not have that information systematically. I have merely heard from certain institutions that they are conducting reviews. It is very much to do with local employee relations. This is not the bread and butter that we get involved in.

Pamela Nash

I understand that, but as far as I am aware your organisation primarily exists to provide guidelines and advice.

Helen Fairfoul

We advise, certainly.

Pamela Nash

It says on your website that the “UCEA provides members with timely advice and guidance on employment matters pivotal to the higher education sector.” That is one sentence that says what your organisation does.

Helen Fairfoul

Yes; that is fine.

Pamela Nash

I presume you must be in conversation with them about what they are doing on this kind of topical issue.

Helen Fairfoul

We will be as part of this work; absolutely. This work will get started very shortly. I know you have a six-month time line. I am trying to do the maths in my head. We will not be finished before February, but we would be very happy to bring back our findings.

Chair

If we are bringing others back it makes sense to have you as well, because we are going to be looking at some other things within that time scale. We have covered everything. Are there any final points that you want to raise with us?

Helen Fairfoul

No. Towards the end I indicated that we have data showing that atypical working is on the decrease in the sector. I do not think I gave you that data earlier.

Chair

It would be helpful if you passed stuff like that on to our staff. I heard your point about 3.7%, but, as I indicated, I do not think we can regard that as giving the full picture. I am taken by your trombonist example, but how many of the 3.7% fall into the trombonist category and how many fall into the other categories? That would probably be helpful for us.

Helen Fairfoul

We can certainly look at the average size of the contract that helps people to derive that FTE. It is a level of detail that does not exist within the published staff record.

Chair

We are not asking you to get somebody’s PhD written on the basis of exploring this, but it would be helpful to let us have what you’ve got.

Helen Fairfoul

Yes.

Chair

Thank you very much. Oral evidence: Zero Hours Contracts in Scotland, HC 275 21