Oral evidence: Radicalisation in schools, HC 352Tuesday, 17 June 2014
Oral evidence, 17 June 2014.
Witnesses
Mark Rogers, Chief Executive, Birmingham City Council, and Councillor Brigid Jones, Birmingham City Councillor, Cabinet Member for Children and Family Services, gave evidence.
Chair
Mr Rogers, Councillor Jones, thank you very much for coming to give evidence to this Committee on this subject. This is a very narrow and very brief look at our previous inquiries into counter-terrorism and the roots of radicalism. There is no reason why you should have read these great tomes. I think all Select Committees believe everyone commits them to memory, but they are an investigation into those two very important areas. The reason why we have you here before us, and I know that the leader of the council was not able to come because of a long-standing commitment in Liverpool—
Councillor Jones
He does send his apologies for that.
Chair
Thank you. We are here just to look at this narrow point about extremism. Obviously, we have heard evidence—Councillor Jones, if I could start with you—from Park View school. Do you have evidence of extremism entering the education system, specifically in that school but more generally in other schools in Birmingham?
Councillor Jones
I have heard the allegations, as I believe we all have, over the last few weeks and months. From the Ofsted reports, any direct evidence of extremism has yet to be presented to me, but, of course, we are still waiting for Ian Kershaw’s inquiry, which was set up by the city council to investigate this, to report back and we are waiting for Peter Clarke’s inquiry set up by the Secretary of State as well, so I would not like to prejudice the outcome of those.
Chair
As far as we are concerned, we want to differentiate between what happens in a school and the issue of extremism and grooming of young children. That is what this Committee is interested in. Obviously, if the standards are not up to scratch that is not for us; it is for others. Mr Rogers, you have taken over as chief executive of the largest local authority in Europe and this must come as a bit of a shock to you that people regard— The Secretary of State and Parliament are not quite up in arms about it, but are very concerned about it and it is why you are here before us today. Have you seen any evidence of extremism in schools in Birmingham? Real hard evidence?
Mark Rogers
No, I haven’t. No, Chairman, I haven’t and in fact I am concerned and maybe slightly more robust in my concern that a delineation has not been properly drawn between issues of governance and issues of extremism as defined by Prevent. So I have been presented with no evidence hitherto, just as my councillor colleague here hasn’t, of extremism if you define extremism in terms of Prevent, which is the prevention of radicalisation and violent extremism.
Chair
Councillor Jones, there is no party political issue here regarding the governance of schools in Birmingham because two administrations have run Birmingham from 2004 to the present day and you took over recently as the chair of the children’s services. Parliament was told that the letter warning the Secretary of State—the famous presentation by the local headmaster who said that there was extremism in schools in Birmingham—was written to the then leader of the council in 2010. What have you done as Chair of Education and Children’s Services in order to create mechanisms to deal with the issue of extremism. Bearing in mind we accept what you have said, you have not seen any yourself, but in anticipation, what are the structures you have put in place?
Councillor Jones
With respect to the presentation that was passed, allegedly, to the former leader of the council, I was not made aware of this until I read about this in the press. I took over this role in May 2012 as Cabinet Member for Children and Family Services. Until October 2013, I had heard nothing regarding the types of allegation that we are talking about. As such, there had been nothing specific put in place in response to the presentation because it had not been brought to my attention. However, the council has been engaging in Prevent since its inception several years ago. Our role in it is much reduced compared to what it has been—
Chair
To what extent?
Councillor Jones
We have received very significant cuts in funding since 2011, to the tune of around £2 million over the last three years, to our Prevent programme. So a number of things that we had previously done we have had to roll back on. However, the things that we have prioritised have been in line with what West Midlands police have advised and we do engage with the boards there. We have what we call the Tapestry programme, which is a theatre production that runs in schools that counters both right-wing extremism and potential Islamic extremism. We also make sure that Prevent is included in all DSP—designated senior practitioner—training. It is worth noting that of the 21 schools that were inspected by Ofsted, all their DSPs had undertaken that training that we had set out. In addition to that, Prevent is included in our fCAF—that is our common assessment framework—and our Pre-CAF procedures, which are standard child safeguarding procedures that we use in the city council, and anybody who uses those procedures will be aware of Prevent.
Chair
Mr Rogers, what is very interesting in looking at the debate that has followed the Secretary of State’s comments—which we of course take seriously, because when the Education Secretary comes before the House and talks about extremism in Birmingham we get worried about it, and I am sure you are worried and concerned about it—is the absence of the voice of the Muslim community. I have not seen the community, as such, come forward either to defend the existing arrangements or to criticise and ask for change. Of course, the local Members of Parliament have done so very articulately and eloquently, but who do you engage with as the chief executive of the council when you are countering radicalism and extremism?
Mark Rogers
I think it works at a number of levels. The mosques between themselves clearly can convene community and faith leaders and elders and do so. That is one place to engage with them, but most of the activity does go on at a more grass-roots level. I have to say that I am relatively new to this particular post. I can’t claim to have found my way into all of the community structures yet, but what is clear is that both councillors and local MPs are in fact using their democratic mandate to go and have the dialogues, to go and find out what people think on the ground. My school improvement officers are out there and very active in the schools and in the school communities as well, trying to provide reassurance.
Chair
Thank you for that. The local MPs seem to be divided on this issue. In the same party they seem to be divided. There is no clear line as to whether, “Yes, we should look into this and this is an issue of extremism,” or, “No, we should not because it isn’t and just keep away.” Do you find that?
Mark Rogers
That is a leading question about our local MPs, isn’t it? What I would like to say is that we are not divided about this in the city council. We are clear that there are probably three questions that are emerging and they are not questions confined to Birmingham either. Whatever the truth—
Chair
What are the three questions?
Mark Rogers
The first one for me is, where do we draw a reasonable distinction between what Michael Wilshaw has defined as a narrow faith-based ideology finding its way into schools inappropriately from extremism, as in the radicalisation with the intention of becoming a violent extremist? The first debate is, can we get some clarity that distinguishes those things, because our communities are most upset by the lack of definition and the conflation of those? I think the second issue that we have goes back to the 1944 Education Act, which is, what is the role of faith in non-denominational schools? As you were asking your previous witness, there is a very serious question to be asked about how faith plays out in mono-cultural or mono-denominational communities. I think that is very important. Then the third issue for me is the one that has been referred to by one of your colleagues already—
Chair
Mr Ellis.
Mark Rogers
Mr Ellis, which is this vexed question of British values. On the back of what very clearly, for me, started out as questions about governance, what has now occurred is a national debate has risen to the surface—and it is appropriate that it is a national debate because, frankly, it is not about Birmingham; it includes Birmingham, but it is not just about us—about those three things. As the new chief executive coming in with, I hope, a relatively fresh pair of eyes, what I am seeing is that we have lost sight of what the Trojan Horse letter prompted.
Chair
Do you think it was a fake?
Mark Rogers
I have been asked that question before. I have yet to be convinced that it is an authentic letter from one plotter to another. I think what it sets out is a set of issues that somebody had some concerns about and wanted action over.
Chair
Yes. Finally from me, Councillor Jones, you have no problems, as chair of the education and children’s committee, with state schools as opposed to faith schools having a call to prayer in the middle of the day and segregation of boys and girls? Do you have any issues with that?
Councillor Jones
I have an issue with segregation of boys and girls, of course. I think that is unacceptable under any circumstance. Birmingham is the city that Malala Yousafzai fled to. Having been denied an education as a woman, she fled to our city because it was a place of tolerance in a nation of tolerance and a nation where men and women and boys and girls are treated absolutely the same, whoever they are. To think that that might have been going on in our classrooms is absolutely abhorrent to me. Should evidence be presented that that has been happening, I think that is wholly unacceptable, but Park View, of course, is an academy and I think you would have to ask the Secretary of State what he intends to do about that particular instance.
Chair
What about the call to prayer?
Councillor Jones
The call to prayer? We are in a multicultural society in Birmingham. Birmingham is an incredible city, which is why I live there. More than 1 million people have come there from all over the world over the last 200 years to make their lives there. We are incredibly diverse. You will find religions in Birmingham and you will find practices in Birmingham you will not find in other areas of the country.
Chair
But it is fine to have it in a state school?
Councillor Jones
I think we have to accommodate for all those religions that we find in the city.
Mark Rogers
Chairman, can I just add I have just recently changed authorities? I have moved from Solihull, which is next door to Birmingham, and, as I left, there was a small controversy raging at St George and St Teresa Roman Catholic voluntary-aided school about the tolling of the mass bell during the day because it was annoying the neighbours, but the tolling of the mass bell during the day was to call the faithful to mass held during school hours. I think another important issue for me is that the call to prayer in a school with predominantly Muslim children is not being seen in the broader context of other calls to prayer by other faiths. What is happening here is the need to understand why it is that only one faith is being discussed.
Michael Ellis
Can I go back to the Trojan Horse—as it is called—letter? When was Birmingham City Council first aware of the allegations that are the subject of this whole inquiry? When was it first aware as a council?
Councillor Jones
The Trojan Horse letter itself was sent in a brown envelope, unsigned, to the leader of the council at the very end of November 2013.
Michael Ellis
Six months-plus ago?
Councillor Jones
Yes.
Michael Ellis
Why was no action taken until the Trojan Horse letter was passed to the Department for Education, who then asked Ofsted to inspect the schools in question?
Councillor Jones
That is not an entirely correct statement. If I just go through—
Michael Ellis
It is not a statement. It is a question.
Councillor Jones
Okay. Action was taken when we received the Trojan Horse letter. It was passed to me initially because I am responsible for schools. What I did then was I forwarded it to the head of legal services and the then chief executive of the council—Mark has only been with us a few months—and suggested that we take it to the police. We did that immediately. A strategy meeting was held in mid-December, I believe, with the police to look at what action should be taken, if any, regarding it. The police were very clear with us that they did not believe there was any basis for further involvement in the letter. It contains many contradictions and many inaccuracies about things that we know to be fact in Birmingham.
Michael Ellis
Were you objecting with the police to the letter or to its content? Was your focus with the police on, “This is a letter that we don’t like,” or was it something that you asked the police whether it was an issue that they would get involved in as far as the schools were concerned?
Councillor Jones
The reason we did not put it straight in the bin, as people often do with anonymous letters, is because it referred to some things that we know to be true and know to have happened. However, the difference with the Trojan Horse letter is it alleges that those things happened as part of a co-ordinated plot and that was the aspect that was new to us. We passed it to the police because obviously that is of concern to us. The police believed that the letter itself lacked any credibility. You would have to check this with West Midlands police. What I understand is they believe it lacked credibility and, therefore, it did not warrant further investigation. When it came to the allegations within it, however, we did then conduct an audit investigation at the city council with regards to some of the allegations made against the city council within the letter. An audit returned a verdict that there was nothing for us to be concerned about. We then became concerned about the community cohesion implications because there was a threat within the copy of the letter that we received to forward it to the press should we fail to take action. The copy we received also asked us to inform the person that we were taking action, but, it being anonymous, we were unable to fulfil that request. We held strategy meetings with the police on an almost weekly basis.
Michael Ellis
About the school or about the schools, plural?
Councillor Jones
About the situation, substantive. That would be about the letter itself, about some of the concerns within it—
Michael Ellis
Sorry, Councillor Jones, I just want to clarify. If you are objecting with the police to the letter and the police take the view, “Well, there is nothing about the letter that we think is actionable,” that is one thing, but I am asking you now about the issue of the schools and action that you may or may not have taken in respect of the schools, irrespective of the letter. It was something that brought an alleged issue to your attention.
Councillor Jones
With those schools, all of those were on our radar for some issue or another. We were already aware of some of the issues that had been going on. For instance, some of the allegations regarding SATs results had already been investigated. Some of the allegations about forgeries were the subject of a police investigation. We had already taken action with most of those schools.
Michael Ellis
My final question, Mr Rogers, is to you. Ofsted criticised Birmingham City Council’s oversight of the local authority running schools in Birmingham. I appreciate that you may not accept that criticism—I don’t know—but Ofsted criticised the oversight. Why do you think oversight failed?
Mark Rogers
You are right, I do not necessarily agree with Ofsted and, therefore, I do not necessarily agree that oversight has failed. What I think is very interesting, and having directly asked Sir Michael the question myself as to why we had not been inspected by them, it is because Ofsted had no concerns about the performance of Birmingham schools to the extent where it would trigger their inspection interests. I then have to work out why it is that our oversight comes into question. I think our oversight comes into question because the nature of the 21 inspections, 18 of which the Secretary of State commissioned and three of which Ofsted commissioned off its own bat, took a particular turn. We have already discussed that particular turn, which was, were they failing in their responsibilities to protect children from radicalisation and extremism? One of the reasons that I take very mild exception to what Ofsted has found at this stage is that in many ways a new agenda was retrospectively fitted into Birmingham.
Michael Ellis
Thank you. One thing that has not received much attention is the fact that the pupils of that school have received 75% grades and that is an achievement that has gone unremarked in many quarters and I think that should be noted.
Mark Rogers
Chairman, if you would indulge me: 21 inspections, three schools outstanding, one school good, 11 requiring improvements but safeguarding standards met, six schools in special measures, one already in special measures that the council is taking action over. The whole picture is rarely presented, 21 schools from 436.
Chair
I am glad to give you the opportunity to do so and time does not permit me to hear a discourse from Leicester about our inspections.
Mr Winnick
You referred to the recent history of Birmingham, Councillor Jones. Would it not be right to say, looking at the broad picture and following on the replies Mr Rogers has given to Mr Ellis, that, like other boroughs in the West Midlands including my own of course, Birmingham has a remarkable history of tolerance and diversity and something to be proud of, Councillor Jones?
Councillor Jones
That is the reason I choose to live there.
Mr Winnick
Including, of course, the reaction in 1974 when the atrocities occurred and the determination of the council and so many others that the Irish not be penalised because of the actions of a few criminals.
Councillor Jones
We have an incredibly rich history within the city, which is why I am very proud to represent it.
Mr Winnick
As you say, you can be very proud of it, as indeed my borough. The Chair referred previously to the differences—to the previous witness at least—between some of the Members of Parliament over the issue, the reason you are both here today. Is that not an understandable part of the democratic process—that Members of Parliament, even of the same party, can take different approaches to what has occurred pretty recently over the controversy in schools?
Councillor Jones
I would agree with that statement. I think it is also worth referring back to the Chairman’s earlier question about the Muslim community, which, of course, is not one community but many different communities from several different backgrounds within Birmingham, which does not speak with one voice in the same way the white community does not speak with one voice.
Paul Flynn
Is extremism in the eye of the beholder in this case?
Councillor Jones
Prevent has a very clear definition of extremism. I think there has been some confusion between extremism and religious conservatism and those are different things. There has also been some confusion between extremism and bad governance, in my opinion, and I think there are some actions taken because of people’s religion, but also some actions taken by people who happened to share one religion. Within the long ongoing dialogue about this, much has been confused between those different things.
Paul Flynn
Is the ideal that we should all be working towards a school community that is as homogenous as the rest of the local community and that schools of this kind are likely to concentrate into mono-ethnic and mono-religious groups?
Councillor Jones
I personally think that schools should reflect the community they come from, mono-cultural communities of any sort, if they have a reason behind them. Often within Birmingham that is related to poverty and deprivation over many years and this administration has made it its founding principle to break the cycle of poverty that many communities are trapped in. That does drive a lot of the segregation within the city and a lot of the segregation that you see within our schools. It is no coincidence a lot of the poor schools are located in areas that are highly deprived. I think, until we break some of those underlying structural things within our society, we are going to struggle to see the truly mixed schools that we would all want to see within our city.
Paul Flynn
Perhaps it is as reasonable to expect the Bullingdon Club in Eton to become homogenous, which they have lamentably failed to do, but don’t you think the example of what I would call a—
Chair
I think that is a bit beyond our terms of reference.
Councillor Jones
They are not within my purview.
Paul Flynn
The experience in Northern Ireland was the religious segregation in schools entrenched prejudice rather than eliminated it, and that is something we should bear in mind in planning school communities.
Chair
Indeed.
Paul Flynn
Okay.
Ian Austin
I have a couple of questions for Councillor Jones and a couple of questions for Mr Rogers, if that is okay. The first thing I would like to ask is, what observations do you have about the limitations of the LEA’s role in scrutinising schools or, in fact, the absence of any local oversight in respect of academies when concerns like this are raised, given that, first, they are academies; secondly, the LEA is much smaller; and, thirdly, there is no one between the chair of governors and the Secretary of State?
Councillor Jones
As a former teacher, Mark may like to comment after myself as well. It is an ongoing frustration for me. We have 436 schools in Birmingham. Of course, within this we are talking about just five that have been of concern. Roughly a quarter of those are academy within the city, but over the last few years we have seen a rollback across the whole school sector in the expected role of the local authority and in some of our responsibilities, mostly to academies but also to maintained schools as well to some extent. It is a problem for me in terms of meeting parents’ expectations that they have for education in our city and in terms of responding to them and taking action on schools when we need to. My predecessor in the role did not have a belief in issuing IEBs on schools when they fall into difficulty. Since I took office, in the last two years, I have issued more than 20 where I think schools have problems, but my ability to do so is limited by the Department for Education, whose approval we must solicit before we can impose an IEB, for example. That has limited our ability to intervene in at least one school where we have been very concerned. We also have budgetary problems. Birmingham City Council is losing two-thirds of its controllable budget over an eight-year period. When a school goes academy it takes with it a top-slice of money from the local authority. Much as I would love to do more things with schools, our ability to do so financially is being massively curtailed by the cuts that we are facing, mainly from central Government. I do believe we need more local oversight of schools. I think it is a very confusing picture for parents in Birmingham, particularly over recent times. The fact that four of the schools that have caused the greatest concern are academies has been rarely reported and that has meant that a lot of people have come direct to us looking for help. Of course, we desperately want to help because we are their elected representatives, but we have had to redirect them to the Secretary of State.
Ian Austin
Just very briefly, setting aside the issues we have been discussing, by any measure, taking a school from 6% five A* to C, excluding English and maths, to 75% is an impressive achievement.
Councillor Jones
It is exceptional. Yes.
Ian Austin
But should it be exceptional? I think that is the level we ought to be aiming at. I am an MP in Dudley. We have one school that does 86%. I say to the other heads, “If we can do it why can’t you? There is nothing special about this school particularly.” What lessons do you draw from their academic track record? What do you think other schools in Birmingham should be aiming to achieve? What can you do to help them get there?
Councillor Jones
In Birmingham we have recognised we have some fantastic country-leading head teachers with amazing skills within the city and we have some other schools that are not performing so well. Until last year, I believe we were bucking the national trend in terms of schools results across the board. We have set up primary school to school improvement partnerships across the city, which have been evaluated independently as achieving excellent results in terms of turning around schools. We did have a similar set up in secondary that we are looking at strengthening in the future. We are changing the way we do school improvement in the city, away from sending in local authority advisers to brokering partnerships between schools so excellent practice can be shared. There is a strong sense of family within schools within Birmingham as well. We have set up the Birmingham Education Partnership with the aid of two outstanding head teachers in the city to provide co-ordination, a single voice for schools and leadership where the local authority either is not the best place to do that, as quite often we are not, or where we are not able to because of new legislation. The Birmingham Education Partnership contains around 300 of our 400 schools at present and is still expanding. They have a strong focus on school improvement and we are looking to support that to get all schools to a standard we would like them to be and our children deserve, quite frankly.
Ian Austin
Mr Rogers, I just have two very quick questions. Do you think it would be appropriate for school resources to be available to fund a judicial review mounted by the governors at Park View? I know it is an academy, so it is not a matter for you.
Mark Rogers
Although it is not confined to academies to challenge inspection results, is it? I do not think it is appropriate, to use a cliché, to take books out of the classroom, no. I think if there a good cause to mount a challenge then other means need to be found to fund that, but, no, I could not support the funding of a challenge through resources that should be in the classroom.
Ian Austin
Finally, apparently, staff who left—I may be wrong on this, but I think—before the school became an academy have confidentiality agreements, more commonly termed gagging clauses. Is that right? Is the council in a position to lift them?
Mark Rogers
I do not think that we will need to lift them. I think we have an agreement that people are entitled, if they have something to whistle-blow, to whistle-blow. Confidentiality clauses do not override an individual’s right and responsibility to speak out.
Ian Austin
As far as you are concerned, the council is doing nothing to prevent people coming forward and saying whatever they think they might need to say in relation to this school or other schools?
Mark Rogers
I hope this does not sound like the usual bureaucrat’s qualification, but I have no reason to believe that we are doing anything that would prevent people speaking up and speaking out.
Chair
Thank you very much for coming in. You have no evidence to give us of extremism in Birmingham schools today?
Mark Rogers
No.
Chair
Thank you very much. Oral evidence: Radicalisation in schools, HC 352 21