Oral evidence: Administrative scheme for “on-the-runs”, HC 177Wednesday 9 July 2014

Oral evidence, 9 July 2014.

Witnesses

Brian Hambleton and Julie Hambleton, Justice4the21, gave evidence.

Chair

Thank you very much for joining us. You heard my preamble earlier, so I do not think there is any need to go through that. Can I just say that there may well be a vote at about four o’clock? If we are still in session then, we will have to suspend for 15 minutes and then come back, so that may happen. Thank you very much for joining us. Again, would you like to just tell us a little bit about your organisation and make a brief opening statement?

Julie Hambleton

Okay. First of all, my name is Julie Hambleton and this is my brother, Brian. We would like to thank each and every one of you, Chairman, and all the members, for inviting us today. For us, this is a monumental day. We feel as though we have waited all our lives for this moment and this is highly significant to us. I do have an opening statement that I hope will be of interest to you. First, we would like to thank the Chairman and all Committee members for giving us the opportunity to be heard, and the comments we are going to make are those of our family. We would like to extend our sincere condolences to all those families affected by all terrorist atrocities over the years. We share your loss and grief. I am the youngest of six children. This is our sister, Maxine. We brought a picture of her, because names are bandied about left, right and centre and there is never a face to put to a name. We think it is really important that you see who our sister was.

Lady Hermon

Yes. She was beautiful.

Julie Hambleton

Maxine was murdered on the evening of 21 November 1974. I was 11 years old. For each and every one of us, the moment we lost our lovely, kind, generous and intelligent sister is seared into our memories until the day we die. We miss her today, as we have done every day for the past 40 years. Justice, in the context of the Birmingham pub bombings, is the use of authority to uphold what is just and to administer the investigations, establishment and uphold the principles of laws set by precedent and to treat all before the law fairly and decently. The basic principle that all are equal before the law has been conveniently and deliberately ignored. The authority of the United Kingdom has blatantly discriminated against the many seeking justice for this crime. The United Kingdom has witnessed, as such, a total corruption of justice in this matter and has the affront to continually insult living victims, relatives and the murdered souls, to dishonesty and venal expressions of mock hand-wringing. Perhaps these hands are dipped in blood. 21 innocent people were blown up and murdered that night in Birmingham. A further 182-plus people were injured. Many became amputees and many have suffered horrendously for the last 40 years. Our sister was blown to pieces. The 21 were innocent people, ordinary people; people like your brothers, your sisters, your nieces, your nephews, your cousins. They were citizens of the United Kingdom: only ordinary, decent, law-abiding people—obliterated. Now the authority of the state dares us and challenges us to wipe all of this from our collective memories and to presumably go away very quietly because it suits some politicians who have failed to grasp the enormity of the precedents they wish to impose. Law is set by precedent. This is just a green light for the next generation to get away with it. The outrage of the Birmingham pub bombing was obviously not in Northern Ireland. The jurisdiction of the investigations is not bound by the Northern Ireland Executive, the Good Friday Agreement, peace processes or any other mechanism of state applicable to the culture and history of the Northern Ireland Office or any other current reconciliation process. The Birmingham pub bombings is a murder investigation. It is not a war crime, because no terrorist organisation has ever admitted their involvement. It is a murder investigation with enough evidence to gain conviction. Why, therefore, are certain papers apparent to these murders consigned to a 75-year secrecy order? This was effected in 1994 by the then Director of Public Prosecutions, Barbara Mills, the Home Secretary, Michael Howard, and the then Prime Minister, John Major, who put a 75-year public immunity interest order on the case, including the files of Guildford, the only criminal cases in British history to receive this. What is covered in these papers marked “most secret”? Why is it that these papers have been retained from any viewing? We would like full access and disclosure to these papers, as is currently being considered by the Prime Minister from Gerry Conlon’s dying wish. Our campaign was born out of sheer frustration, in particular with all the public inquiries taking place, none covering the lack of action regarding the Birmingham pub bombings, and what helped intensify our frustration was when the current Chief Constable of the West Midlands Police failed to even acknowledge receipt of the three letters I personally addressed to him. What has helped to further fuel our frustration is that the current Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, has failed to even acknowledge the four letters personally sent to her in the past 30 months. The same can be asked of the Leader of the Opposition and our Prime Minister. Even Shami Chakrabarti, who leads the quasi-political organisation Liberty, who sat next to the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland at a recent state banquet given in honour of the Irish President, fails to respond to a formal letter. The current Home Secretary responded to a letter from the Archbishop of York in the most derogatory terms of reference. Is it all part of some mystifying collusion? Crucially, why has the investigation team of the West Midlands Police lost over 20% of the evidence in the biggest mass murder in England’s history of the 20th century, including the third bomb, which failed to detonate? Why has this missing evidence become placed into our possession? Why? It must be deduced that if anybody wants to implement a terror regime, they should make sure the crimes are the biggest mass murder of the 21st century and they will get away with it. After all, our justice is set by precedent. Examine the precedent wishing to be set by the servants of the state in this instance. The machinations of this racket called British justice and the collusion of the serving and previous political class fail to grasp that human emotion and endeavour can never be diminished. Where would we have been without these during world war one and world war two? No one is giving up because it suits Peter Hain and Tony Blair. We have the right as members of the European Union to seek and embarrass the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in another domain, to which the United Kingdom must answer. If the Government and previous Governments wish to appear to continue to deliberately mislead decent, honest and truthful elected politicians and compromise the integrity of elected Members of a democratic assembly, that agenda is now fully exposed to all, as our experiences demonstrate and by the practices of the OTR letters, which have come to light by accident. Such glib and utterly crass statements as the Select Committee have taken from witnesses to only pursue prosecution for matters after the Good Friday Agreement beggar belief. What other country in the world would pursue such vile injustice to its citizens because it suits some political parameters? Alongside our request for the 75‑year PII to be lifted, other outcomes we would like to see the Select Committee inquiry to confirm on our behalf, please, are: Question one: considering the revelations in Chris Mullin’s book, Error of Judgement, in particular potential allegations that there was a bomber living in Dublin whom Mr Mullin visited, could it be confirmed if this alleged suspect has ever travelled into the United Kingdom and been allowed to proceed without being arrested for this involvement in the Birmingham pub bombings? Could the Committee confirm if this alleged suspect, or any suspect suspected of the bombings, ever received a letter of administration under the OTR scheme? Question two: could the Committee inquire from the West Midlands Police Chief Constable whether any alleged suspect, deceased or currently living, received an administrative letter under the OTR scheme? Question three: the Prime Minister wrote to Mr Adams following the 5 May negotiations at Hillsborough Castle[7] stating, “If you can provide details of a number of cases involving people ‘on the run’ we will arrange for them to be considered... You have also questioned whether it would be in the public interest to mount any prosecutions after 28 July 1998 for offences alleged to have been committed before the Good Friday Agreement… I would be willing to have these matters considered rapidly… Decisions are, of course, a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Attorney General.” I believe that was in reference to John Downey. Could the Committee disclose if the Birmingham bombings case was one such case pre-1998? In the interests of disclosure, could the Committee disclose this communication to the families confirming the same? Question four: considering the impact this scheme has had on victims, could the Committee confirm whether or not the OTR scheme was extended to members of the West Midlands Police who have failed to act either before the bombings or after the bombings, either by intentional act or omission of their office? Question five: considering that the rule of law has been deeply undermined by the covert method of the scheme, could the Committee give an undertaking to provide the Birmingham pub bombings families with the fullest disclosure permissible of any legal implications of the OTR scheme affecting or impeding the West Midlands Police duty to bring to justice those responsible? Finally, we have met with many kind people of all political persuasions and religions on the mainland, in Northern Ireland and from the Republic of Ireland, all of whom have suffered tremendous torment and distress. If only the witnesses to this Select Committee could have stood in the same rooms and witnessed the sheer distress that continues through their lives as they purport to abandon the simple concept of common law and justice. The expression of support from those who find the ignorance of the past 40 years since the bombings in Birmingham abhorrent has been, and still is, overwhelming. We would like to take this opportunity to thank our incredible supporters from Birmingham, Wales, the north and south of the UK and Ireland, and all those who have travelled far and wide to stand shoulder to shoulder with us during the past years. Their support keeps us strong. We have also received tremendous support and counsel from many political and learned figures of all political hue. Our campaign has received recognition from Her Majesty the Queen in very thoughtful and touching private correspondence. She is the defender of the faith. Her servants have failed the Crown before and now wish to wane before it. We await any questions you may wish to ask. Thank you.

Chair

Thank you very much for a very moving account of the situation and also very searching questions.

Ian Paisley

Julie, thank you for the very powerful statement you have put on the public record today, and I am glad that we have been able to facilitate the opportunity. You said something very striking at the beginning: that this was a real opportunity for you today and that you had waited for this opportunity for so long. I am certainly glad that this Committee is facilitating that, because we see it from one side but you feel it every day and therefore that is important. Some of the things that you have put on the record today probably show that there is room for a very separate inquiry into what has happened in your own case. People once talked about an “appalling vista”; you have kicked over a stone of maggots today. Mr Chairman, I think, following from what Julie has said, we should write to the three people who she named—Yvette Cooper, the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition—and ask them to do the decency of replying to a letter from a victim in the United Kingdom. I think we should do that, but that is another matter. I assume you are going to say “yes” to this, but, given what you have said, Julie, do you feel that mainland victims—and excuse me for calling you a “mainland victim” but you are our mainland—in a perverse way are even more forgotten?

Julie Hambleton

Yes. We have been utterly and totally forgotten. Our local newspaper, the Birmingham Mail, who are fantastic supporters of ours, give us our own column every fortnight of a Friday to help support our campaign. In one of them I wrote that we feel as though the senior management of West Midlands Police and, I have to say, certain parts of our current and previous Governments wish that we had been buried next to our dead.

Lady Hermon

That is dreadful.

Ian Paisley

That is awful, yes.

Lady Hermon

That is how you feel, though.

Julie Hambleton

Yes. They completely ignore us. We have a memorial in Birmingham. Do you know how long it took to get that memorial to remember 21 people who were murdered en masse?

Lady Hermon

I am going to be horrified.

Julie Hambleton

25 years.

Ian Paisley

I asked this of our previous witnesses, and the reason I am asking is that I want to get these things on the record. Am I right to assume that whenever you heard of the Downey case what sprung to your mind was, “That must be us. The letters must be about us as well”?

Julie Hambleton

We only heard about the Downey case, to do with the OTR letter, this year, alongside everybody else.

Ian Paisley

So did we. That is when we first heard of it.

Julie Hambleton

Yes. My sister I think summed it up best. We wrote to Lady Justice Hallett, who I have to say wrote a lovely letter back in response to what we sent. Jane, my sister, put it in the best terms. I was at work when I heard and I felt as though—excuse the pun—I was going to implode and turn to dust, as if we literally were nothing to anybody. If an alleged murderer can, where there is evidence—apparently there is purported evidence against him, with fingerprints on the ticket from the car parking—walk out because he has got a letter, for us this is the nadir of our justice system, without any shadow of a doubt. What is the purpose of our politicians setting legislation only for them then to not follow the same legislation that they have implemented? What is the point in having law in the first place if no one is going to follow it? That is exactly what it looks like to us with these OTRs.

Ian Paisley

In the Birmingham Mail article on 2 March it states that “Paddy Hill has claimed that police sent secret letters promising immunity to two of the men responsible for the 1974 pub bombings”[8]. Do you know the names of the people that Paddy Hill is talking about there?

Julie Hambleton

No, but if I did I would tell you.

Ian Paisley

Do you think one of those names is the person in Dublin that you mentioned in your statement?

Julie Hambleton

I do not know. You would have to speak to Paddy Hill. We do not know. We only know what you know from when that was printed.

Ian Paisley

Have you made any approaches to Paddy Hill about those comments?

Julie Hambleton

No. After that was printed, I had a phone call off one of our local radio stations who asked me to comment on it, and she said that Paddy had retracted what he had said. I do not know what he knows and I have not asked him, and he has not forwarded on what he may or may not know to me. If you want the answer to that, you are going to have to ask him. The thing is, when we have spoken to him, he has said that the names that he believed to be the men who did it he passed on to West Midlands Police. I do not know if you know, but we had a meeting with the Chief Constable. I wrote to him in 2009 and he did not respond; he got his inspector to respond, basically telling me he is too busy for the likes of me—he was too busy to talk about the biggest mass murder in England’s history in the 20th century. I wrote back telling him how contemptible I thought he was and he got his sergeant to respond. This is the sort of contemptible behaviour that we are being treated with. We are like lepers. We have not killed anybody. I have never even had a parking ticket. We have done nothing wrong. We have not caused life threats or caused anybody to have any of their limbs amputated. I have never even hit anybody. We are treated as if we are lepers of society and all we want is justice for our sister and the other 20 victims.

Kate Hoey

On what you have just said, which is very moving, what do you think underlies this ignoring of your whole campaign over many years?

Julie Hambleton

We think it is a cover-up. The more we delve in, the more we believe they knew who did this. The Serious Crime Squad at the time was so tainted—and its history is still tainted—and West Midlands Police do not have the cleanest slate as it is, with Hillsborough coming up and lots of other things; their reputation is in the gutter. I would imagine that if the truth were out as far as the Birmingham pub bombings are concerned they probably would never recover; they probably would have to re-name West Midlands Police. I do not know how, in all honesty, the Chief Constable got his job, because he is a complete and utter waste of time. When we finally got to meet him in April, this is what we were provided with, which tells us absolutely nothing. It tells us exactly what we already know. They promised us we would have meetings with them—the Assistant Chief Constable, Marcus Beale, who is also under investigation for withholding evidence. You could not make this stuff up. They promised us that they would be sending all the vital evidence off to the Netherlands to be forensically tested. At the meeting, we pressed the Chief Constable on whether anything went. He said, “Yes”. I said, “What went?” He would not answer. In the end, I said, “Do you see this glass? If this glass was part of the third bomb, can you tell me if that went? Did that go to be DNA tested?” He went, “Have I not just answered that question?” I went, “No, you have not”. I said, “Did you send any physical evidence?” and he went, “No”. They lied to us. They continually lied to us. They have sent no physical evidence to be tested forensically. They had 168 items of vital evidence; they have lost 35, one of which is the third bomb that did not detonate on the night. What are we supposed to make of that?

Ian Paisley

They lost the bomb.

Julie Hambleton

They lost the bomb. We are not thinking about a piece of paper here; it would have been—I do not know—like that. Actually, I will show you a picture of it, if you want. That is the makings of it.

Kate Hoey

I understand what you are saying in terms of you feeling there has been a cover-up and the incompetence and whatever else within the West Midlands Police. I do not know whether you have had support from local politicians, but that does not explain why there has not been the widespread campaign and support from politicians for some more inquiry when there was for other terrible—

Julie Hambleton

Nobody wants to touch us.

Kate Hoey

Why?

Julie Hambleton

I do not know. I wish I could answer that.

Lady Hermon

What about the local MPs in the Birmingham area?

Julie Hambleton

Our local MP said that he was going to contact his friend Keith Vaz to see if he could set up a public inquiry; we have heard nothing.

Kate Hoey

I support what my colleague said. Obviously we will have to discuss it in the Committee, but there is a separate issue that may well be something that we can look into. In terms of the on-the-runs and the letter, you are presumably not surprised that there has been a cover-up on all of that.

Julie Hambleton

No. Not at all, no.

David Simpson

You are very welcome. I understand you were on Radio Ulster this morning expressing your venom and I understand you did very well. Those are the reports I am getting back from Northern Ireland, so you put your case across very well. You expressed your anger in that radio interview and listening to what you are saying today we can hear that anger and frustration that is coming out. The same line of question that I put to Michael and his daughter in relation to the whole criminal justice system: how do you feel that victims have reacted to all of this? Do you believe that justice, because of this, has evaded you? In other words, you may never get justice because of this.

Julie Hambleton

We never, ever take the view that we will never get justice, because otherwise there would be no point in carrying on. We will fight until our dying day.

Chair

Order. We will have to suspend there for 15 minutes. We will resume at 16.14. Thank you. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. On resuming—

Chair

We will re-start the public session. We were with David.

David Simpson

Julie, you were in full stream. I mentioned justice evading you, a victory from the Government or a result that maybe the whole system had failed your family and other victims and that justice wold never be achieved. You had said that you would never give up on that because you have to have a focus and a goal for that. Could you express just very briefly what elements of the scheme that has been uncovered have caused the most distress to yourselves as a family and to other victims that you have come in contact with?

Julie Hambleton

The letters themselves and the secrecy. It is as simple as that. The fact that it was secret, even though Peter Hain was denying it was secret. It was; nobody knew about it. Even you did not know about it. The fact that we have got politicians who are doing secret deals behind the scenes with people who are alleged terrorists-stroke-murderers and giving them letters to say, “If you get arrested here, you will be alright”. It is just beyond our comprehension. If I went out and I did the vilest thing a human can do—to kill another human—I would expect to be found, arrested, put through the courts, and to do time. Is that not what our law states? Is that not what the Magna Carta states: no man should be above the law? It appears that the OTR issue is casting aspersions on our judiciary and there is a two‑tier justice system.

David Simpson

When you look at the Downey case and when you look at what happened in the court, do you believe as a family that there was political interference?

Julie Hambleton

Yes, absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt. I watched the evidence from Peter Hain. He was—

Lady Hermon

You are choosing your words carefully.

Julie Hambleton

He was—

Lady Hermon

Unusual?

Julie Hambleton

It was almost as if he did not know who had issued the letters even though he was taking claim for helping to implement the scheme. He was trying to blame everybody else for sending the letters out. He knew about them; others knew about them; but nobody else knew about them. What does that say? If that is not political interference, then what is?

Lady Hermon

It is very good to see you back again. Thank you very much. I know that you have come to previous hearings and sat in the public gallery, but to have you give evidence today is very welcome indeed. I should say at the very beginning that I had a particular interest and concern at the time of the Birmingham pub bombings because my elder sister had gone to teacher-training college in Birmingham. She fell in love with a young student who was right beside her who lived in Birmingham and they settled in Birmingham and stayed there. At the time of the bombings in Birmingham—we did not have mobile phones 40 years ago—it was a great worry to find out if they were safe. They were; most unfortunately for you and for your family, your sister had been—I think you said—blown to pieces, which is appalling and shocking. I tried to take down the key bits. Did you mention a public interest immunity certificate that was issued in 1994? Did I get that right?

Julie Hambleton

It was not known as that then; that is what it has been changed to now. It was put under embargo for 75 years in 1994 by Barbara Mills, the then Director of Public Prosecutions.

Lady Hermon

And the reasons given for that? And you did not seek reasons at that time, or you were not given them.

Julie Hambleton

Nobody told us.

Brian Hambleton

We have questioned the West Midlands Police Chief Constable on many occasions about this and they deny knowledge of this entirely.

Lady Hermon

So they deny knowledge of it or—

Brian Hambleton

Of the 75-year embargo.

Lady Hermon

Right. But does the 75-year embargo exist?

Brian Hambleton

Everybody else knows about it apart from the West Midlands Police.

Julie Hambleton

Paddy Hill’s QC, Gareth Peirce, told us when we went to visit her and it is in all of the newspaper reports. Also, it refers to the men known as the Guildford Four. Their files were also put under the 75-year embargo. Apparently Mark Durkan MP has put a request in and asked a question at PMQs a couple of weeks ago, asking the Prime Minister if Gerry Conlon’s dying wish will come to fruition to have the 75-year embargo lifted for people that Gerry Conlon named to see the files. We want exactly the same.

Lady Hermon

And the Prime Minister has gone back to Mark Durkan on that point.

Julie Hambleton

I do not know. He has not responded to anything we have sent him.

Lady Hermon

This is the Prime Minister rather than Mark Durkan.

Julie Hambleton

The Prime Minister. We sent him a dossier over a year ago; he has not responded to that. This year I sent him another letter asking him if he was aware of whether anyone known to be involved in the Birmingham pub bombings was given an OTR letter. He has not responded to that either. I have had no response from any MP I have written to.

Brian Hambleton

Anything to do with the pub bombings in Birmingham is lying forever under a very heavy concrete carpet, to the point where at the meeting on 7 April this year to finalise whether they were going to re-investigate or re-inquire—they keep changing the title—we knew what the conclusion would be of the West Midlands Police but the Chief Constable, in a very long, drawn-out scenario of lies and deceit, lied through his teeth about different things that we knew. Right from the beginning he told us he was sending items to the Netherlands to the renowned world laboratory that does that kind of thing. We questioned why it could not be done in Birmingham. If you go on their blog, you are blinded by the light of what they achieve and how they have achieved conclusions to other cases with DNA profiling. He said he did not want the public to think anything untoward would happen with any of the items in relation to the Birmingham pub bombings, so he was physically sending them to the Netherlands, but, at the meeting, as previously my sister said, they denied they sent them. All they sent was the incomplete complication of papers, which was read—we do not know whether it was read by the scientists in the Netherlands or Birmingham—and the answer was that they were satisfied with what they had read. Apparently that cost £1.3 million. When we questioned that in the meeting, it was a very heated exchange, as I am sure you can imagine. Then I said, “Well, obviously it was not the Birmingham Six who bombed Birmingham—they were let out in 1991—but we have the names of the five people who did and you do as well”. After much tossing and turning of words, just before the end of the meeting, he said, “Well, yes, we have those five names”. I said—

Julie Hambleton

Two of them are dead.

Brian Hambleton

Yes; two of them have died. I said, “Can we cross-reference?” He has gone, “No”. I said, “Why not?” I said, “And the other side of the coin is Chris Mullin. Why have you not arrested him, with his great knowledge of what has gone on and all the people he has met? He knows the Birmingham pub bombings.” He came out with an answer that was very derisory.

Julie Hambleton

He said, “Well, he just does not want to come in”.

Brian Hambleton

Yes. As though he has got the option.

Julie Hambleton

Yes. At the end, I asked the Chief Constable if they were going to re-investigate and he went, “Well, no. With the passage of time…” I said, “I know you are a policeman, but there is no statute of limitations on murder in this country, thank heavens. You are the police, are you not? It is your job to go looking for new evidence.” He said, “Yes, you are right”. I said, “So why are you not?” He said, “Well, the passage of time”. I said, “If everybody goes with your methodology, nobody would get put away. Stephen Lawrence’s killers would not be in prison, and what would be the point of the Met Police currently investigating Yewtree?”

Brian Hambleton

Another important part of the story is that on many occasions we have sent witnesses of the day to the police to give statements and help them and they have told us afterwards, luckily, that they were questioned by officers, nothing was ever recorded—no witness statements or anything—and they were sent on their jolly way, to the point where we put our own personal sign out on our blog site for witnesses to come forward from the day—

Julie Hambleton

Who might be able to offer assistance.

Brian Hambleton

Which turned out to be of great fruition. We are not political people, but I have always wondered why the IRA never admitted to bombing Birmingham and, without going too deeply, now I know, because we have very credible witnesses of the night of the bombings and their story of what really happened is on a different time scale from the West Midlands Police’s story. There are some very dark forces at work here.

Lady Hermon

Could I make a suggestion? We have the Birmingham Mail report that Ian Paisley mentioned to you earlier, and as you explained in reply to him, Paddy Hill has said he is not quite sure that what he said to the Birmingham Mail is indeed accurate. He appears to have retracted what he sad about—

Julie Hambleton

That is what I was told through a third party, but I do not know; I have not spoken to Paddy Hill directly about it.

Lady Hermon

Yes. If there is ambiguity around whether this is the case or not, may I suggest this? It was the Police Service of Northern Ireland and previously the Royal Ulster Constabulary who were first asked to deal with these OTR letters—the 228. They will know, and they are reviewing, all 228 cases. This is Operation Redfield. There is a new Chief Constable there, George Hamilton. They are the police service—not the West Midlands Police Service—who were involved in the OTR scheme. You have nothing to lose; let us put it that way. It may be useful—

Julie Hambleton

We did write to the PSNI and we also wrote to HET nearly two years ago. We had a letter from Matt Baggott’s Assistant Chief Constable—a very nice letter—telling us that we fall outside their geographical remit. Last time I looked, Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom.

Lady Hermon

I am happy to report it is still today part of the United Kingdom.

Julie Hambleton

Yes, but they said they could not help us.

Lady Hermon

That correspondence would have pre-dated, I assume, the Downey judgment.

Julie Hambleton

Yes.

Lady Hermon

Now that we know a secret scheme has been operating since at least the year 2000, the RUC was involved and it became the PSNI, I think it would be well worth the two of you writing, or your group writing, to the newly-instated Chief Constable and asking him just to clarify whether he is willing to confirm—he does not have to give the names; probably data protection or whatever other reasons will be given about that—if anyone who received an OTR letter was suspected of involvement in the Birmingham pub bombings. You have nothing to lose by writing and asking for that information. As I say, the names they may wish not to disclose because of whatever reasons they are going to give you, but certainly to confirm whether or not they were involved. I think they are obliged to tell victims whether the OTRs were involved in bombings, shootings or other incidents that took away the life of your sister forever and changed your family forever. The very least they can do is to confirm “yes” or “no”, which might be helpful.

Julie Hambleton

Yes. Thank you, yes; we will.

Lady Hermon

Then those of us who are able to will work in tandem with Mark Durkan and see what reply comes back from the Prime Minister after the question.

Chair

We are pressing these issues ourselves.

Lady Hermon

Yes.

Chair

Could I just come back to what Mr Hambleton said a moment ago about the IRA not claiming responsibility for the bombings? Could you say a little bit more about that?

Brian Hambleton

The IRA have never claimed responsibility for the Birmingham pub bombings, which led me down a different path two years ago. I spent thousands of hours doing my own investigations and what I found out is very disturbing. Sitting here talking to you, it would be so easy for me to—some people would say—cast aspersions against the authorities. I remember going back to work two days after the Birmingham pub bombings. As I say, I delivered my sister to her death on the night; I drove her to the city centre. I witnessed a situation where my boss of the business I worked for at the time phoned the police on my behalf, because I was in a state of shock. The police came to question me about what I had heard, which was relevant to my sister’s death, and they listened and they did nothing. I gave them information—a vehicle; a registration number—and they did nothing. I had no reason to think about why until the last two years. It has kind of related to our new witnesses that have come forward who we sent to the West Midlands Police. As the lady and gentleman said before, we have to believe in the law, who protect the people of the land, so anything the police do we are behind them. We have to have law and order in this country, but where we are concerned, with the fight for justice for our sister, we have been let down by every avenue so far and every door we knock we are turned away. Our local MPs do not want to touch us. They listen to the story, we send them away and we never see them again. The police want to put us in a cupboard. We are completely side-lined.

Chair

What is the relevance, though, to the IRA not claiming responsibility? Are you suggesting it was somebody else?

Brian Hambleton

In the 1970s you obviously know that the British Government was trying to discredit the IRA in every way that they could. Birmingham is not Northern Ireland; it is the mainland. We are always viewed as a second city and lower than that, but the 1970s was a very dark and dismal decade, and at the time I think Birmingham was used as a soft touch to do what happened related to the Troubles.

Julie Hambleton

What you have got to understand is that on that night—I was only 11, but because of what we learn as we go along—that was the first year when they had late opening hours before Christmas, and Thursday night was pay day. It was on a Thursday that—believe it or not—many people from the Irish community would go drinking in these pubs. People send us information all the time; we get emails sent to us saying all sorts of things. They say, “Why would the IRA kill their own?” Mind you, they killed a lot of their own in the Republic of Ireland and in Northern Ireland.

Lady Hermon

Yes, they did.

Julie Hambleton

I believe that there were more Irish Catholics killed that night than British or English or whatever other nationality.

Oliver Colvile

Thank you very much indeed. It is a heart‑rending story you have been telling and I am very sorry to hear the difficulty you have had trying to get this to have any kind of hearing whatsoever. You were saying this is the first time in 40 years that you have been able to voice your very great concerns. I would be grateful if the clerk might just confirm with me that anything that you are saying during the course of this afternoon is covered by privilege of Parliament and that, frankly, you could not be prosecuted or anything like that for whatever you say here.

Chair

We do use that privilege with respect, though.

Oliver Colvile

I am just curious, so I am going to probe a little bit, then. You think that the IRA may not have been responsible for this.

Julie Hambleton

We do not know. We are just keeping our options open. We do not want to be casting aspersions on one group when it might be somebody else. We do not know. Nobody has come forward. This might sound odd, but it would be nice for someone to say, “Yes, we did it”, just so we know. From there, we could move forward to find out who actually built the bombs, who okayed it, who planted them and so on and so forth. It would be a start. As it stands, with the politics that were in play at the time, nobody has put their hands up and said, “Yes, it was us”. We are left between a rock and a hard place.

Oliver Colvile

So what you would like us to do is to put pressure upon the authorities to undertake a full inquiry—a proper inquiry.

Julie Hambleton

Please, yes.

Oliver Colvile

Right. In order to dispel any concerns that you may have as to who—

Julie Hambleton

We would also like it to be investigated; we would like the perpetrators caught. We do not know who did it. If we do not know who did it, there is no point saying, “The IRA did it”. Who did it? Why is nobody looking for them? Why are our police not investigating and looking for the mass murderers of the biggest unsolved mass murder in England’s history of the 20th century?

Brian Hambleton

What is even more painful for me is that night is seared on every day of my life. My life did not continue from that day. It is like planning your life in a book of pages; my life has stayed on that page. My sister was a very powerful lady in my life; she was our stand-in mother at the time as well. To think that she is not here and there is no one answerable to her murder and that of 20 other people—I cannot even begin to think of the words or the sentence to put together. She had just been accepted into the University of Leicester to study law. It is just abysmal. I really cannot think of the most powerful words to use. It is the fact that the authorities do not want to pick up our case whatsoever. With all my own personal investigations, the story does come together like an old spy novel or film. It is easy for me, talking to learned people like yourselves, to make these comments without giving you my information or clues, hoping you can join my dots together, if that makes sense. The police are our enemy, whereas they should be helping us. They have done a pretty good job on the public of Birmingham since 1974. They have actually got away with murder. I am not saying they did it; it is such a massive cover-up. Unfortunately for us, we have to work off the shirt-tails of other people’s misery when we see the word “cover-up”, like in the latest cover-up, because we have no power. No one wants to take up our gauntlet; we have to do it ourselves. It is very painful and exhaustive.

Oliver Colvile

I do not know whether this is appropriate—and no doubt the Chairman will say otherwise—but I wonder whether or not we might have a conversation in private with you so that you can share with us—

Chair

That is fine. Private conversations beyond the Committee are up to individual Members.

Oliver Colvile

If you wish to come and see me and have a chat with me about it, I will do what I possibly can to try to help.

Julie Hambleton

Thank you. That is very kind.

Brian Hambleton

Thank you.

Oliver Colvile

Can I just ask one final question? Can you just put in context the Birmingham murders that took place? Were the Guildford murders followed as well? Was there any kind of investigation into what happened in Guildford?

Julie Hambleton

No. When the Guildford Four were released, they did not look for the real perpetrators of that crime either.

Oliver Colvile

Right. I was slightly involved in the Brighton bombing.

Julie Hambleton

Brighton there was, yes.

Oliver Colvile

I left the thing about 10 minutes beforehand.

Julie Hambleton

Good for you.

Oliver Colvile

Yes; I was very lucky. I am interested to know which ones have not been pursued.

Julie Hambleton

Guildford was not; they did not re-investigate Guildford. In 1993 West Midlands Police had another investigation, but they ran out of money. 21 people are dead and they ran out of money.

Oliver Colvile

Okay. All right. Thank you very much indeed.

Dr McDonnell

I thank you for your evidence. I am very, very impressed, to put it mildly, with the sincerity and the emotion with which you have delivered your evidence. Certainly I have been very impressed by the integrity of what you say. I am really trying to think ahead and trying to figure out what the Committee might do to help you, or what I might encourage the Committee to do to help you. One of the things that is coming through to me here and I get very clearly is—and I welcome the fact that we have relative privilege here—that there may have been dark forces, as you rightly suggest, somewhere in this, but you have also mentioned five names. Are those names dark-forces names or are they names of IRA-type suspects?

Julie Hambleton

They are IRA.

Brian Hambleton

They are IRA, but one of them has always been referred to as “Mr X”. Mr X, as far as I am concerned, with my information, was British secret services.

Julie Hambleton

Undercover.

Brian Hambleton

Undercover.

Julie Hambleton

He had infiltrated the IRA. We have since found out that he was also posthumously made captain.

Lady Hermon

Posthumously?

Julie Hambleton

Yes. He had got this background that he had gone AWOL twice, and that is how he played his way into the infiltration of the IRA.

Dr McDonnell

Without too much pressure or weight on you, what you are suggesting here to us is that basically—

Julie Hambleton

It is all out there. It is in the public domain. What we are saying is not secret; it is out in the public domain.

Dr McDonnell

Yes. To go back to Guildford, somebody did admit responsibility for Guildford from an IRA background subsequently—years later—in my understanding, whereas Birmingham was not claimed; somebody—I do not know whether it was the Balcombe Street—

Julie Hambleton

Did they do time? Did they go to prison?

Dr McDonnell

No. It was some crowd that were caught for something else or involved in something else and admitted Guildford. I think there was so much embarrassment over framing the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six that there was a certain amount of, “Let’s not go down that road again”. That is different from yours; nobody was ever formally identified or charged in any situation.

Julie Hambleton

No. The last investigation was in 1993. We are just laypeople. We are an ordinary family. You would not believe how ordinary we were, but because the authorities are not prepared to do the job that we pay them for and they are employed to do, they forced our hands. We just got sick to death of no one stepping up to the plate to fight for people who are not here to fight for justice themselves. That is all we are trying to do: to fight for people who cannot do it themselves because their lives have been obliterated for no reason. Maxine would have celebrated her 58th birthday on Sunday just gone. She could have had children. She could have been a barrister. We would not be sitting here. I do not know whether any of you have lost anybody to terrorism, but you cannot explain the feeling of utter loss. The night we were told, which was the day after, I remember as if it had just happened five minutes ago. I was 11, but my world fell apart. None of us are the people that we should have been, because Maxine was the glue that held us together, because she was so significant in our family.

Dr McDonnell

One final question, Chairman, just very simply. I know you have covered some of it in your statement. I would hope that the statement will be read into the record in some shape or form, but would you just recap what you would like us as individuals or as a Committee or an inquiry to do for you before we close?

Brian Hambleton

I just cannot thank you enough, Chairman, and all you learned ladies and gentlemen who have given us the time to listen to our plight. Any help at all.

Julie Hambleton

Any help that you can give us or advice or guidance you can offer us. We are just laypeople; we know nothing. We are literally learning as we go. We have done nothing wrong. We have got nothing to hide. We literally have to wear our hearts on our sleeves. We have kept it together today. It is very rare that one of us does not break down, but this is so important we knew we had to stay extremely strong. We are not fighting just for Maxine; we are fighting for 20 other people. We are fighting for 19 other families, because you have to remember one mother lost her two sons that night; her whole family was wiped out in a night. They were Irish Catholic. That poor woman. The wife of one was expecting at the time. We have met the son, who never knew his dad and never knew his uncle. His life is devastated on the back of it.

Brian Hambleton

We have a two-foot-square concrete monument in a churchyard in the city centre of Birmingham with 21 names on that took many years for its standing. The council did not want it on their property, so it eventually ended up on consecrated ground, which is St Philip’s churchyard in the city centre of Birmingham. We just made some simple inquiries a couple of years ago about who paid for it, who designed it and who gave it permission to be where it was. The answer to all those simple questions was, “We do not know”.

Julie Hambleton

They do not know. There is no paperwork.

Brian Hambleton

That monument says everything about our campaign.

Julie Hambleton

Everything about our campaign. Nobody knows anything.

Lady Hermon

And you do not know who paid for it.

Brian Hambleton

No. No one knows anything.

Julie Hambleton

No. There is no paperwork trail.

Lady Hermon

Is it the names of all those who died?

Brian Hambleton

Yes.

Julie Hambleton

Yes. Maureen Mitchell, who was one of the survivors of the Mulberry Bush pub bombing—she was so badly injured that they called the priest to give her her last rites, but she did survive—fought for 25 years to get that erected, and then we fought last year with the council to get it conserved. It looked like it was 100 years old; it was only 13 years old. We have had it all cleaned and had the gold plating put on the names, because you could not see the names. It is almost as if Birmingham is ashamed of its dead.

Lady Hermon

What about an annual service of thanksgiving for the lives of those lost?

Julie Hambleton

We have an annual service—we have an annual memorial—but it is 40 years this year, so this is going to be a huge year. We are planning for a commemorative concert. This is going to be a happy occasion to remember them while they were alive, but also it is going to give us as a family, on behalf of the other families as well, an opportunity to thank the emergency services and the taxi drivers. I do not know whether you know this, but on the night it was the taxi drivers who saved the injured, because there were no ambulances. I think there were only two ambulances—very similar to Hillsborough, strangely enough—and it was the taxi drivers who took the injured to the hospitals, otherwise there would have been a lot more dead. There were only two police officers on the scene.

Brian Hambleton

There is a very large sinister story attached to this evening.

Julie Hambleton

Yes. The journalists were on strike. There were only two police.

Brian Hambleton

There were no police; no ambulances; journalists on strike.

Julie Hambleton

It was most bizarre. Most, most bizarre.

Lady Hermon

It is a very compelling story and account you have told us this afternoon. It is deeply moving.

Julie Hambleton

Everything we have told you is fact.

Lady Hermon

Yes. I found it deeply moving. I am just horrified it has taken such a long time for you to have just a public hearing—to come into a Select Committee and just to tell your account.

Julie Hambleton

We have been ignored by everybody at every turn.

Lady Hermon

I am very sorry to hear that, because that increased the pain for you.

Chair

We are pleased that you were able to come and see us. Thank you.

Julie Hambleton

Seriously, as Brian has said and as I said at the beginning, thank you all for allowing us to come here today.

Chair

We will take on board what you have said and we will have private discussions about all of it. It has been very useful to us. Thank you very much indeed. Oral evidence: Administrative scheme for ‘on-the-runs’, HC 177 34 [1] A link to “The Queen v John Anthony Downey, Judgment: Abuse of Process” can be found here: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-downey-abuse-judgment.pdf [2] The letter from John Reid to Lord Irvine (14th May 2002) can be found here: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/northern-ireland-affairs/Letter-from-John-Reid-to-Lord-Irvine-May-2002.pdf [3] A link to the transcript of the oral evidence from Chief Constable Matt Baggott CBE QPM, and Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris OBE, Police Service of Northern Ireland to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on 7 May 2014 can be found here: http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/administrative-scheme-for-ontheruns/oral/9418.html [4] The letter from the Rt Hon Lord Goldsmith QC, Attorney General to the Rt Hon Peter Hain MP, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland dated [2?] February 2006 can be found here: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/northern-ireland-affairs/Letter-from-Lord-Goldsmith-to-Peter-Hain-February-2006.pdf [5] The letter from Gerry Kelly to the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee (June 2014) can be found here: http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/administrative-scheme-for-ontheruns/written/10353.html [6] A link to the Hallett Review report can be found here: http://www.hallettreview.org/report/ [7] The letter from Tony Blair to Gerry Adams on 5 May 2000 can be found here: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/northern-ireland-affairs/Letter-from-Tony-Blair-to-Gerry-Adams-(5-November-1999).pdf [8] http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birmingham-pub-bombers-given-secret-6762168