Oral evidence: Police, the media, and high-profile criminal investigations, HC 629Tuesday 2 September 2014
Oral evidence, 2 September 2014.
Witness
Chief Constable David Crompton QPM, South Yorkshire Police, gave evidence.
Chair
Chief Constable Crompton, first of all, thank you very much for coming before the Committee to give evidence on our ongoing interest in the issues of police and the media. Clearly, issues in Rotherham have also come to the fore. The Committee will have some preliminary questions for you about those at the end of our session with you on police and the media; perhaps they are best taken immediately after you have finished on the first subject, rather than having you back after the BBC.
Chief Constable Crompton
Okay, yes.
Chair
Also, thank you for your response to my letter. It is a model for the way in which people should reply to Select Committees. You have given the Committee a wealth of information and you answered every question in a very precise way. We are most grateful for that.
Chief Constable Crompton
Thank you.
Chair
You seem to have had a deal with the BBC in which you allowed them to accompany you to the search of the premises of a then unidentified citizen of the United Kingdom. You then had a fallout with the BBC and you are now putting in a formal complaint—or you have put in a formal complaint—against the BBC.
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Chair
You are also saying to this Committee in that letter, which we have all read and considered, that there is no way that you or your officers were responsible for the initial leak. Quite rightly you say that the reason why you are sitting before us is because of the initial leak that you are saying very clearly did not come from South Yorkshire.
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Chair
The deal that you had with the BBC obviously now, in hindsight, must be one that you regret. Do you regret the arrangement that you made with them?
Chief Constable Crompton
Chair, I think we were placed in a very difficult position because of the original leak, and the BBC came to us knowing everything that we knew as far as the investigation was concerned. My concern, which I articulated in the letter, was that, if we had showed the BBC the door, the very clear impression that had been left with my staff in the media department was that they were likely to publish the story. That would have impeded our investigation. I am confident that we made the right decision in difficult and unusual circumstances.
Chair
Are you embarrassed by the outcome of all this? What has happened is obviously hugely embarrassing to you as the Chief Constable.
Chief Constable Crompton
I absolutely concede, as I put in the letter, that the coverage was disproportionate and made our actions look heavy-handed and intrusive. I do regret that, but that is something I am sure you will be putting to the BBC.
Chair
Of course. However, as far as your conduct and the conduct of your officers is concerned, what you are telling this Committee is that you were put into a difficult position. It sounds like blackmail to me. You were being told by the BBC that, unless they were part of the arrest process, they were going to go ahead and publish this story, which they did not get from you of course, as you made very clear and which the Committee accepts. If they published that story, you were fearful that your investigation would be compromised. Is that right?
Chief Constable Crompton
That is correct. The BBC made it clear to my staff that they were in a position to publish.
Chair
Is it a form of blackmail then?
Chief Constable Crompton
I think “blackmail” is a very strong word.
Chair
What word would you use?
Chief Constable Crompton
It put us in a very difficult position. What I would add is that the other bit of context here, which I think is extremely important, is that there are any number of places or means by which journalists can obtain information. Some have more credibility than others and the credibility of the source that was mentioned to my staff by the BBC reporter was an extremely high level of credibility.
Chair
Did they tell you where it came from or was it just the information that you received that mirrored the information that you had that led you to believe that this came from the Met?
Chief Constable Crompton
No. The reporter in this case was very clear—
Chair
Mr Johnson?
Chief Constable Crompton
Mr Johnson—that the original information and leak had come from Operation Yewtree.
Chair
He was very clear about that?
Chief Constable Crompton
He was absolutely clear about it.
Chair
You were very clear about that also to your police and crime commissioner, Shaun Wright, who I have spoken to this morning, who tells me that you met him on 18 August and that you told him very clearly that this leak came from the Met.
Chief Constable Crompton
Absolutely, yes.
Chair
Are you aware that Martin Hewitt has written to this Committee today to deny this and to say that he has written to you because he challenges your view that this leak came from Yewtree?
Chief Constable Crompton
Martin Hewitt is entirely within his rights to do that. All I can say is that the BBC reporter made it clear to my staff that that was the source of the leak.
Chair
You do not want to use the word “blackmail”. You were put in a difficult position, you say. Doesn’t that go with the territory? We have not even started on Rotherham. As the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire, someone who has reached the position that you have reached, you always have difficult decisions.
Chief Constable Crompton
Some are more difficult than others, though. I think we would all concede that.
Chair
Of course, but when people ring me up as Chairman of this Committee and they say, “I am sorry, you can’t have an inquiry into this, that or the other”, and the Committee discusses it, we weigh up whether or not it is in the public interest to do so and we then make a decision as to whether or not we should have a witness in. You could have called their bluff, could you not? If they had done this and published the story you would have been in the clear. You would have done everything that anyone would have expected a chief constable to do. Instead you went along with the BBC—quite a junior reporter, Mr Dan Johnson. There is no indication that you contacted the Director-General and said, “This is a very serious matter. Yewtree has been dealing with this for a year and we have only had it for a couple of weeks. If you publish this story, our investigation into Sir Cliff Richard is going to be compromised. So please don’t do it”. You did not do that, did you?
Chief Constable Crompton
No, I did not do that.
Chair
Do you regret not going to senior management and asking them to intervene?
Chief Constable Crompton
I did not have that much faith that we could trust that it would not be published. You only have to look at Leveson to find a number of examples that were core to that particular inquiry where the media had decided to publish anyway. That was something that was very much in my mind.
Chair
Do you think you have been misled by the BBC, having looked at their website and the severe criticism of yourselves: that, actually, South Yorkshire have done this for publicity purposes? You say in your letter that you did it to protect the interests of your case, but also the interests of Sir Cliff Richard—which we find very hard to believe, I have to say.
Chief Constable Crompton
You will be aware, from the letter I have sent in, that part and parcel of the complaint that I have submitted about the BBC is that the way they wrote their analysis piece, in the immediate aftermath of the search, very clearly created the impression that they were distancing themselves from what had gone on and were leaving it to the reader to assume, in no uncertain terms, that South Yorkshire had done this in order to generate publicity when they knew that was not the case.
Chair
Mr Harding is very clear in his letter to you, which he copied to me. He feels that you have misled this Committee in what you have said. Misleading a Committee of the House is a very serious matter.
Chief Constable Crompton
I am aware he has written that. I am not quite sure why, but I am aware he has written it.
Chair
He says that you have in your possession texts and emails and written details that will disprove what you have said in a letter that I have said was full of information. We will expect you to release that information to this Committee. Will you do so?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Chair
When will you do so?
Chief Constable Crompton
This week.
Chair
Thank you. I would be grateful if you could send that to us by midday tomorrow, please.
Chief Constable Crompton
One thing that I would add, because I think it is very important to raise at this stage, is that texts and emails are read in the cold light of day. What you cannot add to that equation by publishing them is any phone calls that may intersperse different texts or emails. Some of that is key, I think, to where Mr Harding might be going. If you just read the emails you can get an impression, but unless you are aware of some of the phone calls that are interspersed with those emails then you do not get the full impression.
Chair
Will you be doing this again? Will you be entering into exclusive deals with the media on a confidential basis in order to prevent them publishing stories? In your letter you have said you have entered deals before, but that is when you have invited the media to come with you for the execution of warrants in order to get the oxygen of publicity to publicise the good work that you are doing in South Yorkshire. These are your words. Will you be entering into such arrangements in the future?
Chief Constable Crompton
I think the honest answer to that is that we look at all of these on a case-by-case basis, so it would depend on the circumstances.
Chair
Finally from me, in respect of what appears to be almost akin to a marriage that has broken down—a proposal from the BBC, a meeting of minds and finally a break-up with a complaint from you—how does this leave your investigation?
Chief Constable Crompton
In fairness, the investigation progresses. Clearly, I am not at liberty to discuss any details. However, irrespective of the matters that we are here to discuss today, none of that has a direct impact on the investigative process.
Chair
You are very clear that you are blaming someone in Yewtree for leaking the information in the first place—it was not South Yorkshire—and you are blaming the BBC for basically egging the pudding by making sure that there was much more coverage that showed South Yorkshire in an inappropriate light? There is no blame that you attach to South Yorkshire Police?
Chief Constable Crompton
Taking those two things in order, to be absolutely clear, what I am saying is that the BBC reporter told my staff very clearly that the leak came from Operation Yewtree. That was his comment to my staff. I can’t say for certain if that is true. I do think the BBC over-egged the pudding in this case. Frankly, if I had realised that the coverage was likely to be as intrusive as it turned out to be, with the benefit of hindsight, maybe I might have looked at it differently, but with the information that was available to me at the time I think we made the right decision.
Chair
You are a little embarrassed but you regret what happened?
Chief Constable Crompton
I think it did not make any of us look good.
Ian Austin
A moment ago you mentioned Leveson, but when it comes to the BBC we are talking about probably the most strictly-managed and closely-regulated media organisation in the country. Are you suggesting that if the chief constable of a police force had picked up the phone to somebody senior in the BBC and said, “We have had one of your journalists on the phone. He is threatening to broadcast this story. It will jeopardise a really sensitive investigation”, the BBC might have gone ahead and broadcast that anyway?
Chief Constable Crompton
I thought there was a chance of that, yes.
Ian Austin
Come on! There are conversations between public bodies and journalists all the time—all sorts of discussions about how stories develop, the timing of them and all the rest of it—and by and large the media want to co-operate because they want to get the story. The idea that the BBC would have blown an investigation like this and subjected itself to huge ensuing criticism I think is a fantasy.
Chief Constable Crompton
You are free to take that view. At the time the clear impression that was created was that the BBC was likely to publish the story.
Ian Austin
What do you say to those who might suggest that co-operating with the BBC on a high-profile investigation like this might be quite helpful to South Yorkshire Police, given that a couple of weeks later the independent inquiry into what appears to be the industrial scale abuse of young girls in Rotherham was about to be published?
Chief Constable Crompton
Absolutely no connection whatsoever. I understand and recognise that perception might be out there, but the reality is not the same.
Ian Austin
I want to ask some quick factual questions. Who made the final decision to search the house and the timing of it?
Chief Constable Crompton
That would be the senior investigating officer in charge of the case.
Ian Austin
Who is that?
Chief Constable Crompton
Detective Superintendent Matt Fenwick.
Ian Austin
Who was he in touch with at the BBC?
Chief Constable Crompton
He was not directly in touch with the BBC. I think it was Dan Johnson via our media department.
Ian Austin
Dan Johnson was the only person at the BBC that anybody from South Yorkshire was in touch with in the run-up to—
Chief Constable Crompton
In the run-up, yes.
Ian Austin
Were there any attempts made to contact Cliff Richard before the search of the property?
Chief Constable Crompton
No, not at all. That would be completely improper.
Ian Austin
One final very quick question: why were the BBC given a day’s notice of the search?
Chief Constable Crompton
The agreement was that they would be given some notice. They were given not a day’s notice, but probably about 18 hours’ notice.
Chair
Just on that point, you wrote to us and said they were given notice on 14 August. If you look at your notes, I think you will find that date was wrong. The search took place on 14 August, so they were notified at 4.00 pm on 13 August. You were on holiday at the time. Is that right?
Chief Constable Crompton
Correct, yes. If we have inadvertently put the wrong date down, I apologise. We will correct that.
Chair
That is okay, but you want might to just correct that for the record.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Chief Constable, who received the very first call that was made by the BBC journalist?
Chief Constable Crompton
The very first call that raised this issue in the first instance?
Lorraine Fullbrook
Correct.
Chief Constable Crompton
Our head of media.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Who is?
Chief Constable Crompton
Carrie Goodwin.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Who had the subsequent face-to-face meeting with the BBC journalist?
Chief Constable Crompton
Carrie Goodwin and the senior investigating officer.
Lorraine Fullbrook
You say that you believe the leak had come from Operation Yewtree, but in your letter you said that South Yorkshire Police believed the source to be credible. Did you have a name of this credible source?
Chief Constable Crompton
No, the name was not mentioned. However, the detail of the information was basically everything that we had and we had received that information from Operation Yewtree less than two weeks before.
Lorraine Fullbrook
It was just some bod from Operation Yewtree? That is what you believed?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Lorraine Fullbrook
You said, “Clearly, the potential for details of the investigation to enter the public domain risked compromising the integrity of the inquiry.” When threatened or blackmailed by the media, is it the policy to confirm details prior to the action you intend to take on any case?
Chief Constable Crompton
This is an area where the College of Policing guidance on handling the media is silent. If you think it through, if the media come to you with all of the details, you have two choices: either to deny that those details are correct or you could say, “I can neither confirm nor deny”, which is as good as saying it is correct.
Lorraine Fullbrook
When threatened or blackmailed, it is South Yorkshire Police’s policy to confirm the action that you intend to take. Is that correct?
Chief Constable Crompton
When threatened or blackmailed?
Lorraine Fullbrook
Yes.
Chief Constable Crompton
We do not have a policy if we are threatened or blackmailed. We take any of that on an individual basis.
Lorraine Fullbrook
It is on a one-to-one basis. For example, if you were going to raid a drug dealer’s home, would you inform the media prior to that action?
Chief Constable Crompton
We might do in certain circumstances.
Lorraine Fullbrook
How often has that happened?
Chief Constable Crompton
I could not tell you in exact numbers, but it is fairly frequent.
Lorraine Fullbrook
As a percentage: 50/50 of house raids?
Chief Constable Crompton
No, nothing like that. It might be 5% or 2%, on those occasions where there is some media interest.
Lorraine Fullbrook
You inform the media prior to a minority of raids you make?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes, I would say so.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Who in South Yorkshire Police rejected the journalist’s attempts to use the information he was holding?
Chief Constable Crompton
The head of media.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Who is?
Chief Constable Crompton
Carrie Goodwin.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Who agreed the course of action of telling the BBC the day before that you intended to raid the premises?
Chief Constable Crompton
That was suggested at the initial meeting and then I was asked for my opinion on it and we talked through the pros and cons.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Who were the people at the meeting? Who agreed this action?
Chief Constable Crompton
The head of media and the senior investigating officer.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Who are?
Chief Constable Crompton
Carrie Goodwin and Matt Fenwick.
Lorraine Fullbrook
You say that you were surprised that the BBC journalists, although you advised them not to turn up before 9.30 am on the day of the raid on the house, were there hours before. Do you think this was naive in the extreme?
Chief Constable Crompton
Looking back, maybe we should not have been surprised. Yes, I suppose a little naive.
Lorraine Fullbrook
This is pretty basic stuff. Local newspapers do this. You don’t think this was naive?
Chief Constable Crompton
I just said I thought it was a little naive.
Lorraine Fullbrook
The day before you say to the journalists, “Don’t turn up until 9.30 am to raid”, on a high profile person, you don’t think that was naive?
Chief Constable Crompton
I just said I thought it was a little naive.
Lorraine Fullbrook
A little naive? Okay, fine. You say that you were surprised that the helicopter was shown on the BBC that suggested the raid was taking place, but the helicopter did not reach the location until the officers had arrived at the address.
Chief Constable Crompton
My understanding is that the helicopter arrived after the officers had reached the address.
Chair
To be clear, this is not your helicopter. This is the BBC’s helicopter.
Chief Constable Crompton
The BBC’s helicopter arrived.
Chair
There was only one helicopter?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes. The BBC’s helicopter arrived after my officers had got to the address. An unfortunate consequence of the chronology there is that it took the officers some little time to gain access to the premises via the concierge and obtaining keys. By that time the helicopter was in the air and I think it created the impression that they had been there before my officers got there, which was not the right impression.
Lorraine Fullbrook
From the letter that you sent, you were concerned about your integrity that it could have been suggested that that helicopter had been given prior notice and therefore was there. What exactly did you expect when you had already told the BBC journalist the day before that you were going to raid the house?
Chief Constable Crompton
The point about integrity is that no pictures were to be broadcast prior to us gaining access to the premises, otherwise other people know about it.
Lorraine Fullbrook
They had already ignored you on the time to be there and, even more so, you were surprised that they turned up with a helicopter, even though you had agreed it?
Chief Constable Crompton
We had not agreed a helicopter. We just agreed that there was not to be any broadcast of any footage by any means until we had got into the premises. I had no knowledge that there was going to be a helicopter.
Chair
Maybe you want to revise your answer to Lorraine Fullbrook.
Lorraine Fullbrook
I say again, what exactly did you expect to happen?
Chief Constable Crompton
I thought the most likely scenario was that the BBC would be on the road and would be taking photos of my staff going in and out, which is something that has happened—
Lorraine Fullbrook
When you told them to turn up at 9.30 am, you did not expect them to be there all night or all morning, did you?
Chief Constable Crompton
My staff spoke to the reporter the teatime before and he was in the north of England.
Lorraine Fullbrook
Your police officer phoned the reporter at 4.30 pm the previous day—
Chief Constable Crompton
Somebody in the media department did, yes.
Lorraine Fullbrook
—and said, “Don’t turn up until 9.30 am the next morning” and you were surprised they turned up before?
Chief Constable Crompton
It was probably, as I say, a little naive.
Lorraine Fullbrook
I think it is more than a little.
Chair
I think the Committee would say it is more than a little naive and perhaps it lacks competence not to realise that when you are dealing with a global organisation they would want to turn up. After all, you talked about them coming along and taking a few pictures. This is one of the biggest broadcasting organisations in the world. You would expect them to have some cameras there as well, wouldn’t you?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Chair
Mr Crompton, you mentioned the College of Policing and the guidance. You said it was silent on these issues, but Alex Marshall was very clear when he was questioned about this. He said, “If the information was an unauthorised disclosure from within policing then it would be contrary to the code of ethics and the person concerned should be held to account.” Shouldn’t the first thing that you did, on hearing from the BBC reporter Dan Johnson that his source was Yewtree, be to have picked up the phone, telephoned Bernard Hogan-Howe and related that information to him immediately so you could have checked that source, checked it with Yewtree, before doing any deals with the BBC? Why did you not contact the Metropolitan Police until 27 August—13 days after you went into Sir Cliff’s property?
Chief Constable Crompton
With any leak inquiry, the very first thing that would have happened would be that the reporter would be approached. From the outset, we wanted to protect the integrity of the inquiry. That looked like it was going to run the risk of the story being published.
Chair
But, Chief Constable, this came from within the policing family. It came from Yewtree. You know Bernard Hogan-Howe.
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Chair
Why didn’t you pick up the phone and say to Bernard Hogan-Howe, as this Committee did last week when we wrote him a letter, “Did it come from Yewtree?” Martin Hewitt said no. You had information from a man from the BBC—not a very senior man although I am sure a very worthy journalist—who said to you it came from Yewtree. Wouldn’t you want to pick up the phone and speak to Bernard Hogan-Howe and tell him this to verify this?
Chief Constable Crompton
First of all, the only way anybody would know the answer to that question would be by doing some form of investigation.
Chair
Wouldn’t you want to tell Bernard Hogan-Howe?
Chief Constable Crompton
The risk of an investigation would have been that almost the first move would have been to approach the reporter who then might have thought, “Well, I will run the story anyway”.
Chair
I see. This was part of your sweetheart deal to keep the reporter on—
Chief Constable Crompton
No, it was not part of any deal, but that was part of trying to weigh this up.
Chair
Thank you.
Michael Ellis
Chief Constable, you are saying that the BBC were effectively extorting you: you were to comply as a constabulary of this country or they would spoil your operation. That is effectively what you are saying.
Chief Constable Crompton
I did not use the word “extorting”.
Michael Ellis
I am using that word but that is what you mean, isn’t it?
Chief Constable Crompton
In a way.
Michael Ellis
You have said to the Chairman that you were not going to complain to BBC senior management because you did not trust them in light of recent events. Is that effectively—
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes, I did not trust that they would not run the story anyway.
Michael Ellis
You have it within your power, it seems to me, to threaten arrest. If journalists, as you say, which I find difficult to believe, would seek to destroy a police operation, they are subject to the law of the land like everyone else. To destroy a police operation is tantamount to perverting the course of justice or doing an act tending or intended to pervert the course of justice. Your officers could have threatened to arrest. If your people were being threatened that your operation was going to be spoiled, you could have done that. Did you think of doing it or did anyone under your command do it?
Chief Constable Crompton
The net result of that might have been, yes, of course, we could have made an arrest, but the story would still have been out there.
Michael Ellis
You say it was Operation Yewtree, the Metropolitan Police. Could you help me with this? The journalist, who I do not know, Mr Dan Johnson, is apparently a BBC journalist for the north of England. Does it not strike you as strange that if Metropolitan Police officers were going to leak this information to a journalist, it is much more likely that they would leak it to someone within the London journalist area and they would not be very likely to know a northern BBC reporter well enough to leak such a precious piece of information to? Doesn’t the fact of the person to whom the information was leaked militate against it being the Metropolitan Police’s responsibility?
Chief Constable Crompton
I think, with the benefit of hindsight, you might suggest that, but at the time it could have come from anywhere.
Michael Ellis
I want to ask you a couple of things about the operations here. Was the date or time of the raid moved because the BBC knew about it?
Chief Constable Crompton
No.
Michael Ellis
Was the BBC aware of a pending raid when they told your people that they were aware of the issue? Did they know that a raid was being planned or did they just know that an investigation of Sir Cliff Richard was under way?
Chief Constable Crompton
They knew about the investigation.
Michael Ellis
They did not know of a pending raid?
Chief Constable Crompton
Not to my knowledge.
Michael Ellis
Did your media team volunteer that information?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Michael Ellis
That was completely unnecessary, wasn’t it? Your media team were told by the BBC, “We know of this investigation”. They didn’t need to volunteer that a raid was going to happen. That was something that your people leaked to the BBC.
Chief Constable Crompton
We found ourselves in a position of trying to gain the co-operation of the BBC so that they would not publish the story. Can I just say, the guidance that the Chairman referred to does not say that you cannot do that. It says that you are to justify it if you do and it is to be done on an individual basis.
Michael Ellis
So be it, but you have said the BBC did not know of the fact of a pending raid and, in actuality, it was South Yorkshire Police that told the BBC of the pending raid. Did the BBC make it clear to South Yorkshire Police that they knew about the alleged incident at Bramall Lane in Sheffield? Did they know those sorts of details?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Michael Ellis
That information was not volunteered to them by South Yorkshire Police?
Chief Constable Crompton
They knew some of that. They certainly knew some of that. They knew basically what we knew, because we did not have all of the details at that point either, I do not think.
Michael Ellis
But you knew the location?
Chief Constable Crompton
I think so.
Chair
I don’t think we want to go into too much detail on that. Just the process is fine.
Michael Ellis
Yes; I am not planning to go into any more detail. Thank you, Chairman. I have just one other point to ask you. Rolf Harris was questioned first and then his property was searched and, as far as I can tell, that is the usual course of action. Why was the cart put before the horse in this case? Why was it that a search of this property was undertaken before any questioning was sought with Sir Cliff Richard?
Chief Constable Crompton
I am not sure that I can necessarily answer that one very easily without starting to talk about the investigation. I am not trying to be difficult.
Michael Ellis
Do you agree that this is a departure from normal practice? You would normally speak to someone first and then, on the basis of that, go on and search properties. Here the cart was put before the horse. We are trying to establish why this case has been dealt with differently from routine cases and this is something that is not routine.
Chief Constable Crompton
I fundamentally don’t agree.
Michael Ellis
You don’t agree?
Chair
Could we also clarify the number of officers? You say in your letter that there were six officers from South Yorkshire that attended the property in Berkshire. How many came from Thames Valley?
Chief Constable Crompton
One, I think.
Chair
Was it your vehicles or did you hire additional vehicles?
Chief Constable Crompton
I don’t know the answer to that question, Chair.
Chair
Have you seen the footage of what happened? I appreciate you were on holiday.
Chief Constable Crompton
I saw what was going on on the television.
Chair
You saw the BBC coverage while you were on holiday?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Chair
There were concerns that personal items of people at the property were being shown to television cameras. Did you see that?
Chief Constable Crompton
No, and that is the first time I have been made aware of it.
Chair
I know you are currently not speaking to the BBC or complaining about them. The break-up is complete in this relationship, but have you asked them for any of the footage of what happened?
Chief Constable Crompton
I guess that would be an investigative decision. I don’t see a need to ask for that.
Chair
You don’t see any need to ask for it?
Chief Constable Crompton
No.
Chair
The helicopter, of course, was not yours. You did not know about it; you would never have authorised it. You were shocked to see a helicopter appear?
Chief Constable Crompton
I thought it was intrusive.
Chair
I should tell you that the Committee has written to Sir Cliff Richard about his knowledge of these matters—not the investigation, but the process. He has replied and we will be releasing the letter today.
Dr Huppert
Chief Constable, I have to say quite a lot of your answers open up more and more questions as we go on. There has been a long history of police giving information to the media—sometimes for money, sometimes not. Your reaction so far sounds like it is a sort of commonplace thing you just have to cope with rather than a rather remarkable blackmail attempt. Are you genuinely saying it was a huge surprise to you that this would happen and it is a very rare event, or should we assume that the media quite often say, “We have this story and we are going to publish it. What can you give us?”
Chief Constable Crompton
It is almost an everyday event if you take all the police forces in the country. An example would be from my own force—
Dr Huppert
It is an everyday event that the media say to the police, “We are going to publish this story. What can you give us?”
Chief Constable Crompton
In my own force recently, we were planning to do a series of drugs raids. By some means or other the media found out about it and we said, “Right, okay, for operational reasons we don’t want you to publish that story. However, if you come along and don’t publish the story, that allows us to do the raids and complete the investigation, then we will work with you on it”. That is not uncommon in any police force in the country.
Dr Huppert
To be clear, what you are saying is that your police force regularly leaks stories of raids coming up. You are saying the Met regularly leaks stories of raids coming up and that all police forces regularly leak these things.
Chief Constable Crompton
No, I didn’t. Sorry, you are putting words in my mouth.
Dr Huppert
You are saying it is a daily occurrence. You have had examples of leaks coming from your police force about raids that were coming up, that is what you just told us, and that this is a regular thing to happen. Doesn’t that concern you?
Chief Constable Crompton
First of all, I didn’t say it was necessarily a leak but, by whatever means, people do find out about stories and then say, “We’re going to publish, but can we work with you?” You can find that in any police force in the country.
Dr Huppert
I think some of us find it quite alarming that this sort of information is regularly getting out. If the media can find out, the people you are trying to raid can as well. You said earlier, and I was quite surprised by this, that a certain amount of the time you routinely inform the media ahead of raids. You gave a range of different figures, I think; more than 50%. Why do you routinely—
Chief Constable Crompton
I didn’t say more than 50%.
Dr Huppert
Regardless of the exact—
Chair
Can we just clarify, Dr Huppert? What did you say, Chief Constable?
Chief Constable Crompton
I was asked about would I put a percentage on it and I think I said maybe 2%, 5%, something like that, where either there is a policing interest in it for us or maybe they have got to know about it and therefore we will work with them.
Dr Huppert
But you do inform people ahead of time some of the time then.
Chief Constable Crompton
Sometimes.
Dr Huppert
It seems to me rather surprising that you would do that. Why does that help from a police perspective?
Chief Constable Crompton
On occasion, particularly if there has been a particular policing problem in an area, having the media along to show that you are doing something about it is appreciated by residents of the area and people in the wider sense who want to know what the police are up to.
Dr Huppert
There is something very mucky about this interaction. Lastly, you said that the interaction with the media has been quite naive. You talked a few times about your media officer and you have named her a fair few times. Do you think you were well advised by your media officer on how to do all this?
Chief Constable Crompton
I trust my staff. I think the naive point is perhaps with the benefit of hindsight, but I trust my staff. They are good people.
Dr Huppert
So you think they gave good advice?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Mark Reckless
Mr Crompton, you have been very critical of the BBC reporting, including specifically of the home affairs correspondent, Danny Shaw, particularly with reference to when he said, I think on air, “It appears to be a deliberate attempt by police to ensure maximum coverage.” Why did you leap to the conclusion that that was dishonesty on behalf of Danny Shaw or the BBC?
Chief Constable Crompton
We were told—and I have text messages that will confirm this—that Dan Johnson had had that conversation with Danny Shaw and Dan Johnson was disgusted, I think, by the coverage.
Mark Reckless
Who was disgusted?
Chief Constable Crompton
The original reporter that came to us. He was disgusted by the analysis piece that was written, which was totally out of tune with the way that the operation had started off.
Mark Reckless
I have not seen your text messages and we look forward to receiving them, but the alternative interpretation might be that Danny Shaw would not have expected Dan Johnson or another relatively junior BBC journalist to threaten a police force and the chief constable that, “We, the BBC, will reveal this unless you do as we say”, because he might fear the chief constable would ring up the director general or someone else senior and say, “Hey guys, this isn’t on and this is what the BBC should be doing”.
Chief Constable Crompton
With respect, I don’t think what was in Danny Shaw’s mind is the issue. The point is it was an inaccurate story and the BBC knew it.
Mark Reckless
You have accused him of being dishonest, so surely what was in his mind is central.
Chief Constable Crompton
My point is that he knew it was an inaccurate story. The BBC knew it was an inaccurate story and we asked—
Mark Reckless
You have text messages between Dan Johnson and Danny Shaw that make it completely clear what—
Chief Constable Crompton
We told them it was an inaccurate story. We asked for it to be amended or taken down and were refused.
Mark Reckless
Can I go to another matter? You say you knew the leak came from Operation Yewtree. Can you confirm how you knew that?
Chief Constable Crompton
Dan Johnson, in the initial meeting and subsequently, made that comment to my staff and it was noted down in the notes of the meeting.
Mark Reckless
Do we know who within Operation Yewtree divulged that information?
Chief Constable Crompton
No.
Mark Reckless
Why not?
Chief Constable Crompton
I wasn’t aware of this until coming in here today. The Met appear to have conducted an investigation and say it was not from Operation Yewtree.
Chair
Sorry, Mr Reckless. Is that because of what I have just said?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Chair
No, that is not what Martin Hewitt has said.
Chief Constable Crompton
Apologies, Chair.
Chair
Martin Hewitt has said he has not yet conducted the investigation.
Chief Constable Crompton
My apologies.
Chair
Right. You only told him on 27 August that it was Yewtree.
Mark Reckless
If they were to conduct that investigation, what actions would they take as part of that investigation?
Chief Constable Crompton
Probably the first thing they would do would be speak to the reporter.
Mark Reckless
The first thing they would do would not be to get hold of the reporter’s telephone records from—
Chief Constable Crompton
That would be part and parcel probably of speaking to him.
Mark Reckless
I am very interested in that confirmation. Is that standard police practice? I do not know if you have seen it but very controversially today—for most of us at least—we now discover that in the Plebgate operation, as part of the internal disciplinary proceedings, the police took the phone records for The Sun news desk and for Newton Dunn, the political editor, from the phone provider and, on that basis, found the source and subjected them to disciplinary proceedings, ending in them being sacked. Don’t we have protection for journalist sources in this country any more?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes, and it is a very jealously guarded principle.
Mark Reckless
Why, as standard practice, would you get the mobile phone records of the journalist concerned? It is outrageous, surely.
Chief Constable Crompton
I think I took a step too far in that answer. You would certainly speak to the reporter in the first instance.
Mark Reckless
You said as part of that you would get their mobile phone records.
Chief Constable Crompton
Can I correct that? You would certainly speak to the reporter in the first instance. Just to be really clear and nail this one, nobody would have any legal right to those mobile phone records unless there were certain serious criminal offences at play, which would then give you the power to do that. I went a little far.
Mark Reckless
What would the source of that legal right be in those circumstances?
Chief Constable Crompton
We would need to be investigating serious criminal offences in relation to the individual; otherwise there would be no power to seize the mobile phone records.
Mark Reckless
What is the statutory or common law basis of that power in these circumstances, please?
Chief Constable Crompton
My understanding is it would be PACE, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act—seizure of evidence.
Mark Reckless
On the contrary, it appears that what happened in Plebgate is the Met was relying on RIPA, an internal authorisation, to get hold of the phone records of the whole of The Sun news desk, as well as the political editor, and then sacked the person without the say so or telling anyone about it except that this has now been released. Is it now standard practice in the police to rely on RIPA to get journalist source information through their phone records rather than going to court, using PACE, having an article 10 and common law consideration of freedom of expression?
Chief Constable Crompton
Chair, I am at a disadvantage in answering this question because clearly I did not know anything about the Plebgate issue until I walked in here today.
Mark Reckless
You know about police procedure, surely.
Chief Constable Crompton
I do, yes.
Mark Reckless
Please answer the question.
Chief Constable Crompton
If my interpretation of what you are telling me is correct, the Metropolitan Police have done an internal investigation. If the mobile phones that have been used by the officers are owned by the Metropolitan Police then the Metropolitan Police can access the information on those quite legally. Any police force in the country, when faced with the same type of scenario, where mobile phones are owned by the staff who are employed by the organisation, has access to that data because the data belongs to the force in question and not the individual.
Chair
You said that when Dan Johnson saw the coverage he was disgusted by it.
Chief Constable Crompton
There was a text exchange with one of my staff. I can’t remember which staff but I have seen the text, and I am sure that word is used.
Chair
This led you to believe that you had the deal with Mr Johnson for it to be a discreet couple of photographs as you went into Sunningdale in Berkshire. It ended up with a helicopter and worldwide coverage and somebody else—
Chief Constable Crompton
No, sorry. My remark, the disgusted one, relates to the analysis piece not the photographs.
Chair
He was disgusted with some part of the BBC, not that part?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Chair
The website?
Chief Constable Crompton
Yes.
Mark Reckless
Could I return to that? It would appear that you have the texts between Dan Johnson and someone on your staff. You don’t have any texts between Dan Johnson and Danny Shaw. Surely the alternative explanation is that Danny Shaw just presumed that the information had been shared by the police because he could not conceive of a BBC junior reporter saying to the police, “Give me this information or else”, because he would sensibly presume the chief constable would escalate. It was your failure to do so in these circumstances that surely led to this happening.
Chief Constable Crompton
We escalated the request to change that item on the website or remove it right up the chain and were refused at every turn.
Mark Reckless
But you did not escalate at all earlier on when this junior journalist, you tell us, made this threat. You condemned Danny Shaw and his supposedly dishonest reporting, whereas the alternative explanation is that Danny Shaw just presumed you gave this information because he couldn’t conceive of a junior BBC journalist threatening the South Yorkshire Police in this way; he would expect you to go to someone more senior and get it stopped.
Chief Constable Crompton
My point is a simple one, which is that, whatever the motive, it was an inaccurate story.
Chair
I think you have made that clear. Could we have brief final questions on this? We do need to move to Rotherham because we have the BBC in.
Paul Flynn
Before such a search warrant is issued there must be reasonable evidence that an arrestable offence has been committed and that there is material on the property that would assist a future prosecution. Was the evidence of an arrestable offence committed sufficient when I understand the complaint was from one person about an incident that took place 30 years earlier?
Chief Constable Crompton
I think we are straying into areas of operational activity. That was a matter for the magistrates who granted the search warrant and I don’t feel I can go any further than that in answering your question.
Paul Flynn
Could you help on the second part? Thirty years earlier there were not many mobile phones, there was not electronic evidence that is left behind and there was not Facebook. What possible evidence could there be that would help in an investigation of that alleged incident?
Chief Constable Crompton
Chair, I don’t think it is appropriate for me to go down that road.
Chair
I think you must take that as a rhetorical question then.
Paul Flynn
Could you explain what difference there would be in the way you acted in this case if the alleged offender had been Joe Bloggs rather than Sir Cliff Richard?
Chief Constable Crompton
It may not have been any different. I did truthfully answer the question earlier that is—
Chair
Do you honestly believe a helicopter would have turned up for Joe Bloggs?
Chief Constable Crompton
No, in terms of our action. Sorry, I am interpreting the question as would we have done anything different, and the answer I gave earlier was that on a case-by-case basis we would weigh this up. If in fact it was Joe Bloggs as opposed to Sir Cliff Richard, if the individual circumstances warranted it then the same decision might have been made.
Nicola Blackwood
Chief Constable, you must have seen some of the speculation, or your media team will have shown you, that perhaps the search warrant might not have been legal. Under PACE you have to have reasonable grounds for believing, first, that an arrestable offence had been committed; secondly, that there is material on the premises that is likely to be of substantial value to the investigation of an offence; or, thirdly, that the material is likely to be relevant evidence or that you are not able to get in touch with the individual. Which grounds was the warrant granted on? Do you think that it was legal, given that there has been this speculation?
Chief Constable Crompton
I am aware of the speculation and I don’t think I should be talking about the legality of any warrant. It is part of the operation and the discussion that was had between my staff and the magistrates resulted in the warrant being issued.
Nicola Blackwood
Did they raise with the magistrate the fact that the BBC would be present and you had notified them about the warrant being served at the time of asking for the warrant?
Chief Constable Crompton
I don’t know the answer to that question.
Nicola Blackwood
You don’t know? Okay. Finally, you have said that in 2% to 5% of cases you have similar situations where, in the words of Mr Ellis, you are extorted by different media outlets and forced, perhaps, to bring media along to raids; you have no choice because otherwise you think your investigations will be compromised. Have you ever attempted to do what I think anybody should have done in this case—go to the top editor of the news outlet and say, “We would ask you to be a responsible media outlet and let us conduct our investigation in peace”? Have you ever tried to do that?
Chief Constable Crompton
It is not standard practice for anybody to do that.
Nicola Blackwood
I am not asking whether it is standard practice; I am asking whether you and your organisation have ever tried.
Chief Constable Crompton
There may have been an occasion when, based on the individual circumstances, you felt it was justified, but normally that does not happen.
Nicola Blackwood
But surely you would try to build up a relationship with the journalists, who generally are very sensible, upright individuals and interested in justice just as much as the rest of us—go to them and explain that perhaps this would lead to a miscarriage of justice and ask them to let you continue with your investigation and explain what the problem is. You would try that first before making a deal of this kind, which could lead to reputational damage on the scale that we have already seen.
Chief Constable Crompton
Under normal circumstances, even though there might be a level of awareness by somebody in the media about an operation or something like that, there is not necessarily the understanding that they are obviously going to go and print straight away. There might well be other issues, as I mentioned earlier, why we would take them, which is just generally about community confidence and about people understanding the way that the police do their work.
Nicola Blackwood
Yes, but that is not what I asked. What I said is why is it not standard practice to first attempt the ideal before going to a deal that is obviously not what you would want to be doing as a police force?
Chief Constable Crompton
That is not always the case. I think it has been portrayed in a slightly simplistic manner.
Nicola Blackwood
It is what you said. I am responding to your evidence.
Chief Constable Crompton
There would be occasions where, yes, we would challenge it. However, there are plenty of other occasions where it is probably ultimately in the public interest that people see some of the operations being conducted by police officers, particularly where it is in relation to things that are of public concern. It is not a straightforward issue.
Nicola Blackwood
No, but I am asking where you have a journalist who comes to you and says, “I know all the details of your investigation and I am going to publish it” is it standard practice to say, “All right then, we are going to give you access to our investigation”, or is it standard practice to go along to their editor and say, “We would ask you to not do that”? Which?
Chief Constable Crompton
It would depend on the circumstances.