Oral evidence: Academies and free schools, HC 258Wednesday 3 September 2014

Oral evidence, 3 September 2014.

Witnesses

Martin Pratt, Director for Children, Schools and Families, London Borough of Camden, John Readman, Strategic Director for People, Bristol City Council, Jon Stonehouse, Director of Children's Services, Education and Skills, City of York Council and David Whalley, Head of Service: Learning, Children and Young People's Services, Calderdale Council, gave evidence.

Chair

Welcome, gentlemen. It is another all-male panel, albeit one is missing at the moment. Thank you for joining us today. Some people think the academies programme was designed effectively so that “anybody but local authorities” might have been a rallying cry, because too many of you failed too often and seem to be able to get away with it. What is your vision of the role of the local authority in the post‑Gove world of academisation and more autonomous schools and can you be an effective and key player in the future and better than you were in the past? Any thoughts on that?

Ian Mearns

In year one PG.

John Readman

I absolutely welcome the opportunity to talk about that. I think the local authority’s role clearly is as champion, as commissioner and as convenor of partnerships welcoming the diversity of the education landscape. As it settles down, the local authority’s role is becoming clearer as that champion and commissioner and the role that we play in the two authorities that I have been director in has been where we have built strong partnerships with the network of academy chains as well as both local and national. There has always been room for improvement and there continues to be room for improvement, not just for local authorities but for academy chains as well.

Chair

Thank you for joining us. Martin, are you positive about the future of local authorities?

Martin Pratt

Yes. There is a very clear role, I think, but it is not the same role as in the past. We are very clear in Camden that we have a strong partnership with schools; there are very few academies. However, the question is not one of structure, but it is one of standards and the way in which we are able to promote collaboration within a dynamic education ecology that drives performance and mobilises and unleashes the potential within the system to ensure we are not just getting—

Chair

What are the secrets of that, because that kind of language I could have heard 10 years ago, 15 years ago? People will always say, “We are here and we are going to be great”. The dynamic is too often the critics might say local authorities identified with the schools not with the pupils, so they ended up as champions of schools and defending the schools, however indefensible they were at time, in certain places, and there was insufficient challenge. Have we moved to a place where local authorities, using their democratic mandate, genuinely champion the pupil, no longer identify with the institution, but are there to support but challenge the institution on behalf of the pupil? Could this be a new and positive paradigm or have we undermined the role of the local authority, under‑resourced the local authority? Going forward, are local authorities going to be stronger or weaker and why?

John Readman

I would say it is variable across the piece. There are huge variations across the country of local authorities where local members, etc., have seen their role within the new landscape very clearly and have worked to resource that and to build those partnerships. There are some local authorities where they have not necessarily grasped that role and there is work to do.

Chair

Do you think the vision is reasonable? If the Goveite massive impetus, sometimes with some pretty messy bits on the side, not all thought through, but that shift over, could it lead to local authorities in general—there will always be the great and the poor—playing a better role on behalf of the children, who should matter more than the institution or the teachers’ unions or whoever?

David Whalley

On the role of champion for children, we have been on a journey over the last four years and certainly with elected members. In Calderdale now, 27% of our schools are academies. We feel we have really strong relationships with academies and we work well with them. One of the key messages for elected members in taking them on that journey has been that, as a local authority and with our academies and with our maintained schools, our role is an individual role. Who else can provide that role of the champion for our children? That is exactly the way that we have taken elected members on that particular journey. That is a really important role for us.

Jon Stonehouse

The role of the local authority in York, as I am experiencing it, is a positive one. We have a mixed economy of schools, as most local authorities do now. We have a small percentage of academies. Out of 65 schools we only have four academies, two secondary and two primary and it is easy for us because we are a small local authority, so we can get all of our schools in one reasonably sized room at the same time. We have good, ongoing, regular dialogue with our schools and the four schools that have become academies have displayed no intention to remove themselves from the York family of schools. Our role, however, is changing massively. The traditional model of intensive school improvement resources and a high level of school improvement resources within the local authority is now no longer the case. We are much more in a place where we are quality assuring the school improvement, the peer to peer support that schools give one another. That gives us a much better basis on which to challenge how those arrangements are working and to what extent they are improving outcomes for children, so it is a positive view.

Pat Glass

Can I say up front that I think the bringing together of education and social services and children’s services was a big mistake for education and it effectively has led to children’s services becoming child protection and safeguarding organisations? Is it not the case that as we get a more academised system there will not be a role for local authorities in education?

Jon Stonehouse

It is not my experience to date.

Pat Glass

Are you not largely safeguarding authorities now?

Jon Stonehouse

In terms of our budgets and the people that we employ, the greater volume is around protection and safeguarding. However, in terms of influence and partnership, the volume of my work and the work of my senior team is pretty much split still between working with our education providers and working on the children and social care side. Having that joined up dialogue with our schools is hugely beneficial and is focused on the needs of children and young people in their entirety. Therefore, when we do meet with all of our schools on a termly basis, all head teachers, it is a joint agenda that focuses on education standards, on sections within our children and young people community that are not achieving as well as they should do, but also on those protective and preventative agenda items. We attempt to cover that whole agenda and I believe we do it successfully.

Ian Mearns

What is the split within local authorities now between those local authorities that have a chief officer working in children’s services who comes from a children’s social services background and those who come from an educational background? Obviously, there may be others who are chief officers who come from another background.

David Whalley

Probably at a national level they lean towards a safeguarding background. I do not know the exact percentage, but I think that has been, again, the direction of travel. However, to separate safeguarding from education is really dangerous. Our schools are a key partner in the safeguarding agenda.

Pat Glass

No, they clearly have to work together better, but it was the structural bringing together. I was working with schools before 2010 and head teachers were telling me in droves, “Why would we stay with this authority? There is nobody in this authority who knows anything about education until you get four layers down”. I think that is what has led to the massive academisation.

John Readman

We might not agree, but there are some authorities where perhaps that has been the case. This goes back to the earlier question. I almost welcome the opportunity for an authority where all schools are either academies, free schools, etc, so that the director of children’s services in that authority can really demonstrate what being champion, commissioner and broker is about and demonstrate that role for director of children’s services as well as the role for the local authority. In my authority, we are on the tipping point of being over 50%, which we have welcomed and supported and actively brokered. Therefore, in a sense, the sooner we have a higher percentage, hopefully, we can, if you like, present what the future could look like and perhaps tackle some of the myths about either as local authority or not.

Chair

The Schools Commissioner told this Committee that he had a vision of an all‑academised system. Would you welcome that, Martin?

Martin Pratt

Not particularly. I do not think that the question of structure is really the key point. What I look forward to is a system where we are clear about how an integrated system supports children to achieve and creates high quality learning establishments. I think we need to move slightly beyond the role of the local authority and the question of academisation.

Chair

Was it not about getting you to stop identifying with the schools and defending our schools and start identifying with the children and their needs and not caring about the schools’ acceptance and to serve the needs of pupils. In too many cases you did not. You started to identify with your organs rather than the needs of the children and, therefore, that is why some people would have a vision of an all‑academised system, in order to create that psychological break and get you to be the champion of the right people for the right reasons rather than the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

Martin Pratt

So the question is one of the characteristics of the system and the system conditions; it is not necessarily about those structures. However, I completely agree that the focus on outcomes for children has to be the test. That includes high educational standards, but it also means those children are safe and thriving. The question of whether or not all schools are academies is less important than the characteristics that are being displayed by the system within which those children are being educated.

Bill Esterson

We have met some authorities that have done as all of you have described. To a greater or lesser degree, they see all schools as part of the family. We have also met other authorities that have made the point that they really struggle because they have the responsibility but not the power to intervene in schools. How do you manage the lack of power to achieve the sorts of outcomes that you have all hinted at to a greater or lesser degree, so that you have a relationship that you are in a position to look after the children?

David Whalley

The power to intervene where we see underperformance, is that the point you are making?

Bill Esterson

The way things are set in academies, the point that has been put to us is you do not have the power to intervene in those schools but you still have the responsibility for the children in those schools. How do you deal with that issue?

David Whalley

Again speaking from a Calderdale perspective, where we see underperformance in an academy we will challenge that academy and we have challenged that academy and, to date, academies have responded. For example, there may be an invite to a progress meeting, so that we are aware of what the situation is around the data, around the leadership. The academies have gone along with that, although there has been some tension, because ultimately chairs of governors have said, “If we do not come to your meeting, what are you going to do about it?” which I think is your question around the power. To which we have responded, “Clearly we would have another dialogue with DfE and with Ofsted” and we have had that ongoing dialogue. I do not think it is so much around worrying about power, but again, as academies, we continue to monitor their performance and we will have a dialogue and discussion if we feel that that is not good enough.

Bill Esterson

Before other people come in on that, the other point put to us has been the dramatic fall in the numbers of staff you have to be able to work with schools.

John Readman

What I was going to add is that where it is working best and where it is developing best is where the director and the local authority, as you say, sees itself very clearly as that champion of children role and builds that relationship between the DfE, Ofsted, the local authority and academy sponsors within an area. It is about advocacy and influence and it is about ensuring that everybody is playing that role. Bristol is an authority that has had historically poor performance but is going up. I am new to the city there. You have to develop that local focus where everybody has that common determination to see improvement. In a sense, you have that majority view of getting behind a set of city outcomes, so I think it can be done and there are areas where it is being done well, where people are about to use their accountability responsibilities without getting into intervention.

Martin Pratt

In a sense, our responsibility for maintained schools still relies on our ability to influence, because they are more autonomous as well. Therefore, the question is really how you most effectively intervene to achieve rapid improvement, sustain that improvement and go from having good schools to having great schools. You do that through the emphasis on common endeavour, on the moral purpose of education.

Chair

Bill’s question, though, was about the powers and possibly also capacity. Do you have what you need legally, regulatory‑wise and in terms of money? That is what he wants to know.

Jon Stonehouse

Local authorities have understood the need more clearly for what capacity we require. We do still need a reasonable amount of capacity.

Chair

Do you have it and what would it look like if you did?

Jon Stonehouse

It is difficult, because local authorities vary in size so significantly, but I have an assistant director whose sole responsibility is around education. Her primary focus is developing the school improvement system within our city and she has a team of senior advisors, a smaller team than she used to have that is about developing and quality assuring that school improvement system. Therefore, we still have enough capacity to have those senior officer relationships with our schools.

David Whalley

In addition to that, again going back to the journey that we have been on, in Calderdale there are myself and four officers. It used to be maybe five, six times that, so how do we cope capacity‑wise? What we have become much more astute at doing is picking up on the local intelligence that is available to us. There is still a team of educational psychologists, for example, who are part of my service, who are in schools all the time. We have an admissions team; we have HR, we have legal and all parts of council services, who work with academies and maintained schools. The trick is to make sure that we harvest that information, which we now do on a monthly basis and where we have schools that we are concerned about there is maybe somebody within Finance, for example, who picks up that a school’s budget is perhaps careering out of control and it is about feeding that in. It is not about us, as a team, delivering school improvement, because that is the job of the schools and we are there to monitor and to support that school improvement by making the best of the peer‑led systems that we have in place.

Bill Esterson

It is using the resources in the schools.

David Whalley

It is a joint process. We have council resources, which we are making better use of because we have to, but the onus initially around school improvement lies with the schools.

Chair

Do you have what you need, Martin?

Martin Pratt

Yes, I do, and we have, I suppose, a political priority as well, which means there has been some additional investment in retaining and developing individuals who have the challenge relationship with head teachers. That is another way of using the information we have, the intelligence in the system, not just to see whether or not the school is going to do well in its next inspection, but differentiating the evidence to see whether or not particular groups are making the levels of progress required and also what other schools might be able to add to that.

Chair

So you do not want any more money given to your capacity local authorities for education; that is clear.

John Readman

Could I just say we are four very different authorities with different models and there will be many more of the same. In fact, the shakeup of the system has meant that you have that difference and that is okay. Camden is probably pretty well resourced, is that fair to say?

Martin Pratt

At the moment.

John Readman

Others less so. If a local authority is trying to adopt its traditional, old role then it definitely does not have the resources to do that anymore. With the resources that you have, which are very small, you have to play that new role.

Martin Pratt

Yes. Moving forward, the other thing is the extent to which the common endeavour has investment from the local authority and the community of schools in order to deliver that process.

Bill Esterson

Moving on to the relationship with the DfE and the interaction with academies, Dominic Herrington, the Director of the Academies Deliveries Group at the DfE, told us, “We have an ongoing dialogue with all local authorities about academy status of some shape or form. That dialogue often depends on the approach of the local authority”. How good or strong is that in practice?

David Whalley

The difficulty with the relationship with the DfE—and again we have worked hard to ensure we have good relationships there—is that there is very little stability. Maybe that is a feature of being a civil servant, I do not know, but at Calderdale we are constantly meeting new people and it has been very difficult to establish a working relationship. The only constant has been an academy broker, who is clearly just looking for schools to convert to academy status. As the majority of our schools are good and outstanding that conversation is not required.

Bill Esterson

Can you give a specific example of what happens as a result of that lack of stability?

David Whalley

The case that I put forward is that where we have had a concern with an academy, we have raised it through that particular contact. We did have an academy that we were really concerned about, raised it at several opportunities at those meetings with the DfE and I was concerned that the appropriate—

Bill Esterson

So progress is too slow.

David Whalley

The school went into special measures and it should not have done. Another worry to that is where the local authority is currently a member of an academy trust board, the DfE has tried on a couple of occasions to remove the local authority from the sponsor group simply because we are a local authority. The school is outstanding; it has been outstanding under the new Ofsted arrangements. The academy is more than happy to have the local authority as a co‑sponsor, but the DfE is trying various means to remove the local authority from that trust broad. That is creating some tensions and some issues, because there does not seem to be any sense in it apart from political dogma.

Bill Esterson

Are there other experiences?

Jon Stonehouse

We have a regular, if infrequent, dialogue with DfE. That feels right; it feels proportionate. The majority of our schools are doing well. The dialogue with DfE is around schools that perhaps on their radar are causing them concerns. Generally, those schools will be on ours as well, so we focus on those specific schools and we report what action we will be taking as a local authority. It feels a good and appropriate relationship that we have.

John Readman

I would say reasonably good dialogue. We have been through a period of transition. The regional schools commissioner role seems absolutely critical in terms of connecting up more local knowledge. You have DfE, civil servants, sometimes quite junior, making major decisions around education business a long way away from London and sometimes it feels that, so the role of the regional schools commissioner to really improve and increase that level of local knowledge is crucial.

Bill Esterson

We will come to that.

John Readman

I am sure. It is reasonably okay, but could be better.

Martin Pratt

In my previous authority in Luton, we had regular contact with plenty of challenge about particular schools. I have been in Camden for six months. I have not yet had any contact, but we have 58 schools, 59 including the academy and, of those, only two require improvement and the others are either good or outstanding. Therefore, in terms of proportionality on this issue that is probably an explanation for that.

Craig Whittaker

David, good morning. First of all, I just want to thank you for the submission on Hipperholme and Lightcliffe High School that you gave to the Committee, because as you know, I have been all over that like a rash. I want to use this scenario to get to a couple of the points that I want to ask. Personally, I feel the DfE have behaved intolerably in how they have handled the whole situation, not supported and definitely not listened. I know, as a non‑educationist, that there have been some real concerns about this particular school, an academy, for several years and yet the DfE seems to have totally ignored local knowledge and expertise, particularly from the local authority.

Chair

Do you have a question?

Craig Whittaker

I am getting there. In particular, when they were converting to an academy, when they were opening a free school and now when they are failing, they have totally ignored the local authority. Is that a fair assessment or is that me being a bit melodramatic?

David Whalley

Yes, I think it is fair to say that there are some real concerns around how that particular case study scenario has panned out. One of the issues, as I referred to earlier, has been instability in those key contacts at the DfE and so we have been having the same conversation over 18 months with different people and have felt that we have been starting again each particular time. The end of the story is no better than the beginning. We have heard that the school in question, because it is a failing academy, will be taken out of its current trust arrangements and placed with another, successful, trust. We have an outstanding academy in Calderdale; we felt it was a no‑brainer that it would become part of that multi‑academy trust, yet the DfE seem to have performed a U‑turn on that. Whereas four weeks ago that was a great idea, it now appears that that school will go to an academy trust in Leeds, which clearly we have no contact with. It just feels that the dialogue has not been listened to and the needs of those 1,500 children do not seem to have been the highest on the agenda.

Craig Whittaker

Could I just ask everybody else—do either of you have similar scenarios where you feel as though the local authority are just not being listened to? Sir Michael Wilshaw said that local authorities should haul in sponsors, for example, and, if need be, speak to the DfE and Ofsted. In my experience, it is alright speaking to the DfE but they do not listen. Is that a similar experience that you guys have had as well?

Jon Stonehouse

No, not personally. I have been in York six months; we do not have any sponsored academies and we have not been in that particular scenario that you have highlighted.

Craig Whittaker

Okay. Anybody else?

John Readman

Nothing as serious as the Calderdale example, but more recently, and it is not just Bristol, is where it has been too slow for conversion and a lack of available high‑quality sponsors. The DfE have just been too slow on it and not enough good communication around getting to the answer.

Craig Whittaker

Let me pick up on another point, David, which you made earlier about the DfE seemingly not wanting to have local authorities as part of sponsorships. In fact, Janet Penman only last week told me that there is a positive policy at the DfE now that local authorities should not be sponsors and, if they are sponsors of an academy, that academy will be frowned on for being involved in a MAT. Do you think that is a fair policy?

David Whalley

Again, it was clearly an area of concern where we have a successful, an outstanding, academy wanting to become a multi‑academy trust, we did not think there would be any issues around that. However, the DfE made a statement to the school that whilst the local authority remains as a member of the trust board it could jeopardise the conversion to a multi‑academy trust—almost a veiled threat; I am not sure it was even veiled. Therefore, the school has had to approach the local authority to say, “Could you step off our trust board so that we can become a multi‑academy trust?” and it does not feel as if there are any particular, sound educational reasons behind that. Again, it simply seems to have come as a directive from the DfE, which I was not aware of until quite recently.

Craig Whittaker

The policy must be in force, because they have told me personally it is a policy in force. Does anybody else have any views on that particular policy of the DfE?

Martin Pratt

The question is always the proof of the pudding, is it not? If you have outstanding schools achieving outstanding outcomes for children, then that has to be the test. I cannot see a particular reason for taking that stance because, in some cases, the local authority brings a particular benefit to that trust. It should not be that the local authority is always required to do that either. It seems to me a horses for courses thing.

Chair

Going back to my question at the beginning, there is a rationale, which is to make sure that you do not have local authorities identifying with “my school”. There is at least a rationale there that you want to create the separation so that you are champion of the children, not that because you have sat on the board for years you are worrying about defending the performance of that school rather than championing the children. Thus, there is a rationale; perhaps they could have made it more explicit rather than just suddenly announcing at the last minute.

Caroline Nokes

It has been suggested that where local authorities are strong schools are far more likely to stay with local authorities rather than convert to academies or find themselves sponsors, and that where local authorities are weak the reverse is true. Do you have any experience or comment on that?

John Readman

You are very much in the category of a strong local authority, so maybe you go first.

Martin Pratt

Thank you for that. As I have said, the vast majority of our schools are judged to be good or outstanding. We have had no converter academies at all. There are two free schools and the UCL Academy, which have formed over the last couple of years. They work collaboratively with the other schools and with the local authority. I guess the question is: are schools getting what they need in terms of support, challenge and intervention? Is there a sense of common endeavour about driving standards, never accepting low standards, but also of investment? That is investment in terms of social capital, so the quality of governance, as well as capital in buildings and programmes. Camden Council has invested heavily in addition to the money provided by DfE in the schools infrastructure and that has created a sense that there is no reason to do anything other than concentrate on achieving the very best education outcomes we can.

John Readman

I always encourage people to challenge the idea of staying with the local authority, it being one or the other. Local authorities have not run schools for 25, 30 years and that is really important. Governing bodies run schools, so I would put that challenge in. I would not say my authority is strong. There are elements that are strong and some not. It is something about running an authority, strong or weak, where you are encouraging a different model and the diversity of schools and the diversity of provision. There are strong authorities that, in a sense, have actively encouraged academisation and encouraged that diversity and that could be part of the strength, rather than it being “we are a strong local authority, so we want everybody to be a local authority maintained school”. I am not convinced, in the future, that is necessarily a sign of strength.

Jon Stonehouse

From the York point of view, there is a culture of we are in it together here. This is about York’s children. There is a sense of that strong common purpose. From a local councillor perspective, there is cross‑party consensus that we work better together and there is a real strength of feeling that we are high‑performing, so that tends to help with all of that. However, I tend to agree with John that it is less about the status or structure of an individual school. It is more about how we all work together. I have only been there six months, but I sense that previously there perhaps has been nervousness and defensiveness around academisation. I think that is reducing and there is more development and understanding that it is still about partnership, how we work together, how we communicate, transparency, all of those things that are more important.

Chair

We are extremely strapped for time, so I am going to ask for short, sharp questions and answers.

David Whalley

The 27 academies that are now academies have converted whilst I have been in Calderdale, so I have conversations about “Why are you doing this?” Without doubt the initial glut of academies, about 15 to 16, felt that there was a financial advantage in them converting at that particular time and it was not whether the local authority is good or bad or whether they like me or not. The conversion rate has slowed down, but the academies are now looking and again it is a financial impact of, if their building needs some work on it, they feel that they have a greater chance of getting some maintenance around their building if they become an academy. We also have a small number of church schools that are grouping together through a faith dimension, but it has never been about if they think the authority is weak or strong; it has been about other independent issues.

Caroline Nokes

I will give you an opportunity, following on from any of your answers, to give a really short, sharp yes or no: would you regard it as good practice for a local authority to promote academisation in order, in many respects, to find a local solution to problems? Maybe this would involve ordering a strong school to convert to academy status to the sponsor a weaker one.

David Whalley

Yes, if it is appropriate for that particular school.

John Readman

Yes, if it is appropriate for that school. But there are also a range of options. There are always options.

Caroline Nokes

Whilst we are on the subject of a range of options, do you think that local authorities should be allowed to sponsor free schools and academies?

John Readman

It would be interesting if there is a divergence of opinion between us. I think that they probably should not, because there is potentially a conflict. Conflict is too strong a word, but it goes back to the question about the role of DCSs. If this role is to be the champion for children, the champion for our communities, the convenor of partnerships, and to have a whole system view, you would then become too located by if you were running a number of schools as a sponsor.

Martin Pratt

I would agree with that. In my previous authority a charitable trust was established previously by the Council for performing other functions, particularly around leisure centres. It was able to act as the sponsor of a free school. That separation was very helpful, but actually for me it does not seem appropriate for the local authority to be directly sponsoring.

Jon Stonehouse

I would agree with that. I think not directly as a single entity, but local authorities could be part of a consortium that you might put together—however you might describe that, and whatever governance model that would have. I do not think it makes sense to say we could not ever be part of that.

David Whalley

No. We are there as a champion for all our children.

Pat Glass

Can I ask you about the regional schools commissioners? Is this going to divide or improve the relationship between maintained schools, the local authority, and academies?

David Whalley

It is early days, but I have fortunately been in a position to have met with our regional schools commissioner. He only took up the post quite recently. To be fair to him, he came up to Calderdale and had a meeting with me. I have had a few conversations with him around the school that Craig Whittaker mentioned earlier. It is too early. It is a huge region, particularly in the area I am working in. We have a regional schools commissioner has got responsibility for academies in Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside, and West Yorkshire. This is an incredible mix of people when you put them all together. I do not think it has ever been attempted before. It will be an interesting one.

Chair

He will have a big contact book, will he not?

David Whalley

He is going to have to tiptoe round the M62 corridor. He is from Liverpool, which does not help for those in West Yorkshire, of course.

Pat Glass

It sounds as if it is going to divide it.

David Whalley

I just cannot see how –

Pat Glass

How it is going to work?

David Whalley

I asked him, “How is it going to work?” He said, “Just see me as the Secretary of State for this particular region”. I said, “I cannot really see you as Secretary of State for the region”. It is early days but we have had a dialogue, and he seems to be listening and responsive to a local authority view.

Jon Stonehouse

I have not met ours yet.

Pat Glass

Is it not the same one?

David Whalley

West Yorkshire is not York.

Jon Stonehouse

Yes. I remain optimistic about it. We do have strong regional structures and good cross‑border understanding as things stand at the moment. I suppose we just need to be clear that it does not become something that further complicates how we do things.

John Readman

My view is probably slightly coloured by the fact that we have David Carter who is a very strong Bristol man, and who has been a witness to the Committee. We have had a strong relationship since he was in a previous role. Even if I did not have that local knowledge and local relationship, there has to be something that closes the gap between national and regional. The regional schools commissioner role is a critical role that will improve co‑ordination. Each area needs to develop relationships between its LA, its Ofsted regional director, and its DfE regional director. That is the critical triangle that will secure greater improvement.

Martin Pratt

The answer would be that it depends how that role is fulfilled. It could be used to drive division and to make that very clear, or it could be used to focus on educational excellence and outcomes. Like Jon, I am hopeful.

Pat Glass

Is geographical size important here? Is it too big? Could you see it working better if it covered a smaller region?

Martin Pratt

The function itself, which is focusing primarily on failing academies although obviously on commissioning as well, would depend on number of academies in that area. But actually, it appears to me that it is not quite one thing or the other.

Pat Glass

When we had David Carter and Robert Hill here, I think I asked them if they would see parental complaints as part of their role. They said “yes”. I just thought, “Then you are going to be completely overwhelmed, are you not?”

Chair

Robert Hill was an academic.

Pat Glass

Oh, right. Sorry.

David Whalley

I do not think they are aware of the volume that that would bring. Clearly, we have a large number of academies. If you are a parent in Calderdale and you are unhappy, you do not ring up whoever the Secretary of State may be. It comes through the local authority initially. It always comes to me—or to Craig, who then passes it on to me. The thought of a regional commissioner taking on that role is just not sustainable. It will not work.

John Readman

The capacity and infrastructure behind the regional schools commissioners is still in development. It is too early for us to see that.

Chair

There is a danger of them being asked to do more things. If they suddenly get publicity then you will have parents who do not know who they have got to go to. If they have got to pay for the super head of the complaints to bring you in to line, and off they will go. How do we make sure that they stay on a sufficiently narrow focus? Are they just going to be glorious super brokers in certain places? Are they just going to be the champions that push everyone to become an academy as the answer to all known woes? Or are they going to be genuine partners in the school improvement journey?

David Whalley

During my conversation with a regional commissioner, I got the strap line that, “Academies will not be allowed to fail”. I would not disagree with that, but there was very little on how that particular post was going to bring about that end result.

Ian Mearns

Ofsted told this Committee that school-to-school support is crucial in a self‑improving system, and that local authorities could be a facilitator of that. How do you see your role in a self‑improving system?

David Whalley

I would say that local authorities have a key role in being a broker. They are not there to provide school improvement, but to broker and to commission the appropriate arrangements—be it through teaching schools or through multi‑academy trusts. At Calderdale we have school clusters, which all schools are part of. Critically, all academies are part of these as well. I note from the earlier panel that the question of capacity came up. If you have got academies who are all doing their own thing, then who is there to provide that support to the other schools? We need academies to be part of that system. The next key area that I will certainly be trying to challenge around is getting a very robust challenge mechanism. Head teachers like working together. They like working in partnership together. They do not like actually challenging each other face‑to‑face. That is a key area that needs to be developed as part of any school-to-school peer‑led system.

John Readman

I would say that the school‑led school improvement system is developing massively. The challenge I have given to heads as part of my discussions is that at the moment, we are doing huge amounts around brokering, and with sponsors and others, but at the moment it is not quite yet strong enough that a school that starts to go down gets picked up. There is not yet that consistent edge and robustness.

Chair

Do they have to be in a MAT to get that edge? Does being in a MAT make it more likely that there will be that edge, or is it just as likely that they do not want to challenge each other?

John Readman

Potentially, they could be part of a number of different areas. We will know we are succeeding in that new system when that system works well enough that it does not require the local authority to spot an academy going into DD.

Martin Pratt

I slightly disagree with that. I think the local authority can actually bring that edge, as long as it is structured and organised to do that. For example, we have peer assessments of even our outstanding secondary schools. These involve external challenge partners, heads from other schools in the borough, and the local authority expert in that area, going through a process which is robust and vigorous. The problem with the self‑improving system without the grip, the edge, or the grit in it is that it risks—as the chair was suggesting local authorities were doing—over‑identifying with schools. It is difficult to have that conversation and to say, “You do know, do you not, that this evidence shows you are beginning to go in a downward direction. What are you doing about it?” This conversation needs to be a central part of that. The other aspect is that the local authority should bring a sense that our schools are rooted in their communities yet not constrained by their geography. Thinking about the ways in which the system might work, I expect our schools to have relationships nationally, and internationally in terms of research, as well as locally. So, it is locally expressed but is not inward‑looking. It is rooted in communities but it is not constrained by them.

Ian Mearns

There is a dilemma for local authorities because technically, local authorities still have a duty over standards in the schools in their area.

Martin Pratt

Absolutely.

Ian Mearns

But we have not got all of the powers with all of the schools that you would want in order to make sure that standards are constantly improving.

Martin Pratt

Therefore, this sort of partnership is the mechanism by which the local authority can discharge that responsibility. But it does have to be clear that that is still its role.

Ian Mearns

From my perspective, local authorities fulfil a handy role because they are always there to blame

Jon Stonehouse

There is lots of school-to-school support going on. There has been for some considerable time. We need to make sure that that accountability is robust. We are still working through how we bring all schools together: what sort of structure we enable that to work within. That needs some clarification and tightening in York.

Ian Mearns

Do you think local authorities have the same kind of relationship with both sponsored and converter academies?

David Whalley

Again, it depends where the sponsors are based. We have got sponsors that have two schools based in the north-east. Again, geography does come into it. It is much easier to have a dialogue with a trust board who meet within your local authority than somebody from a considerable distance away. We have had some particular issues around that.

Pat Glass

Is there a danger that as more schools become academies, and as we move towards a more academised system, local authorities lose their skills in school improvement? Is that not already happening?

Jon Stonehouse

We hinted at this earlier when we were talking about capacity. Going too quickly to a school‑to‑school improvement model risks losing too much capacity too quickly. There are plenty of examples of local authorities who are trying to get some of that capacity back, particularly with the introduction of the Ofsted inspection framework for local authorities, yet have struggled to get that capacity back. It is a risk. In York we are clear about the level of capacity we need.

Pat Glass

Anybody else?

John Readman

It depends on the role you see yourself playing as a local authority. I think I said that earlier. If you want to play that traditional role and say, “We will provide school improvement” then you do need to retain your skills. That is definitely a challenge at the moment in the market. If your role is to convene, support, and broker different types of school improvement that can be delivered by a number of different parts of the system—national or local—then in a sense the skills you need are about commissioning and partnership rather than going in and actually doing that improvement.

Pat Glass

Does that then lead on to some local authorities not having that role at all, and commissioning that in from other, bigger local authorities who still have their school improvement services?

John Readman

Potentially, yes.

Chair

Teaching school alliances are a critical part of this as well. You have Maths Hubs as well. Teaching school alliances appear, by crossing academy, maintained school, and local authority boundaries, to be a very important part of the self‑improving system that can train up and develop local people to stay committed to the area, and all the rest of it. What is your relationship with them? What is your appreciation of their development?

David Whalley

There are three teaching school alliances in Calderdale. We think that the local authority has a role in brokering and commissioning. In effect, they are three separate businesses who are very keen to take on as much business as they can within individual schools. It is the role of local authority to try to be the glue that holds that together, otherwise it is almost a beauty contest between three different groups saying to schools and governing bodies, “We can do this for you”.

Chair

Remembering that what we do is to write recommendations for change, are they set up right? If you have got any recommendations about the way that teaching school alliances could be made stronger, or if you think they are alright as they are, do tell us.

John Readman

I will have a think about that.

Martin Pratt

I will do the same. They are pretty variable across the country, both in terms of model and performance. They are a crucial part of the system, but it is early days yet. I would like to have a think and then perhaps respond on that.

Pat Glass

Finally, I have a question on admissions. I have always thought that admissions was one of the key roles of local authorities acting on behalf of children and their parents, and not in the interests of schools? In your experience, are academies changing their admissions process when they become academies?

John Readman

It comes back to how successfully the system or the family works as that and embraces that diversity. My experience is that people’s admissions codes have not gone awry and have not gone against the overarching city approach. That said, there are ways you can do it. If an academy’s codes are completely out of sync you can go to an adjudicator, etc. But generally, if you get the system right, the admissions one should not be an issue

Jon Stonehouse

I will just say that our experience to date is that our academies still operate within that overall York arrangement. It has not to date caused us any issue.

David Whalley

I would mirror that. I want to take the opportunity to say that a key aspect of this is school organisation and pupil planning. We are finding that we have academies and free schools that can expand their numbers without any recourse to the local authority. That is bringing a potentially huge impact for years to come when we are trying to plan future pupil places. There needs to be some sort of recommendation around the Department having more robust process in working with local authorities when agreeing to expand free schools and academies; what would be the impact on that local authority?

Chair

Any final thoughts on what place planning should look like?

Pat Glass

Sorry, just very quickly—what is happening in London?

Martin Pratt

In Camden we have not had any difficulties at all in that area.

Pat Glass

Because there are no academies.

Martin Pratt

But in terms of pupil place planning and free school applications, that is very destabilising. We seem to have had very little contact until very recently with either the DfE or EFA. We are beginning to have those conversations, but it is still very difficult.

Pat Glass

You are all small local authorities: a couple of inner‑cities and a couple of northern ones. I wonder what the situation would be in the big counties like Hampshire, Kent, and Essex.

John Readman

The place planning issue is an important issue because in the initial flurry to set many flowers growing there was very poor dialogue. We had a very good experience in Hull of turning poor dialogue into a really good partnership to get a free school in the right place that would benefit children from a particular community, rather than in completely the wrong place. However, it was hard to get to that. There have been a number of high‑profile examples demonstrating that you have to work in partnership to get the right impact. That is what has changed in the DfE in the last year: you have now got a much better dialogue around if it is a junior school, free school, etc. You actually have a joined-up dialogue that is right for the local community.

Chair

Thank you very much indeed, gentlemen, for giving evidence to us today. If you have any further thoughts, particularly around specific recommendations—however focused they may be—we would be grateful to hear from you. Thank you very much again. Oral evidence: Academies and free schools, HC 258 2