Oral evidence: Violence against women and girls, HC 594Wednesday 29 October 2014
Oral evidence, 29 October 2014.
The Chair
Good morning. Could I invite you to introduce yourselves, please?
Rosie Lewis
My name is Rosie Lewis. I have come from the Angelou Centre. We are based in Newcastle upon Tyne. We are a black and minority ethnic women’s centre. We provide specialist domestic abuse provision for women and children. I am an IDVA based there, an independent domestic violence advocate, dealing with high‑risk victims.
Sara Browne
My name is Sara Browne. I am from the Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation, and we actually represent now Middle Eastern and North African women and girls. We have widened that from our original group. We focus in particular on honour‑based violence, forced marriage and FGM in our campaigning, but we also have 16 staff and we speak seven languages between us. We provide advice, counselling and referral services as well.
Rachel Horman
My name is Rachel Horman. I am a domestic violence solicitor and the head of the department that deals solely with domestic violence and honour‑based violence, forced marriages and that kind of thing. I am also a director with Paladin, the stalking advocacy service.
The Chair
We have several questions to put to you. Please do not feel obliged to answer every question. There are three of you and you may well be in agreement, but we do have some time. Could I begin by asking again the question about the Istanbul Convention? The Convention requires law enforcement agencies to respond promptly and appropriately by offering adequate and immediate protection to victims. Do you think the newly introduced domestic violence protection orders are working well in offering this protection?
Rachel Horman
I certainly do not, from my experience. I work in Lancashire and Manchester, and my experience in Lancashire is I have not seen a single client who has had the benefit of one. I made some checks this week and there have been seven domestic violence protection notices made in the whole of Lancashire. It is not clear how many of those then went on to become orders. The scheme only went live in Lancashire on 1 August, and I understand lots of other counties are behind in getting that in place. I have not noticed any difference myself. Like I say, I was working in Manchester when the scheme was being piloted and, again, it was not used very often.
Rosie Lewis
As an IDVA, I am part of the Multi‑Agency Risk Assessment Conference, the MARAC that Ms Baird was talking about. On the ground, there have only been a couple of DVPOs put through. As I said before, we are a specialist organisation that works with BME women. We have not seen any go through MARAC that have been concerning or supporting BME women. A lot of that is because these orders being put through is dependent on the risk assessment that takes place on site; it depends upon the officer’s experience when they are turning up. For the women we are working with, the majority are not able to speak English and there are a number of other barriers in place. When police officers are turning up, they are not necessarily treating many BME women in the same way as they would an English‑speaking or white woman, because they are not effectively going in, looking at the situation and applying the same protocols. Sometimes they are speaking to the English‑speaking member of the family; this obviously has an effect in terms of how they respond and whether they put that protection order through. That goes back to the cultural competence and understanding of the police officers who are actually going in. It is really important that the police officers on the ground have that understanding and cultural literacy to be able to do that. There appears to be an inconsistent response in terms of officers going out. Again, I have only seen the implementation of this over the last few months. Like I say, there have only been a few cases put through in the Newcastle area. There has not been any kind of feedback about how that is going on to be implemented. Obviously we are looking at this as a shorter-term fix as well, so we need to look at how we are working and supporting victims over the longer term, especially when they are facing multiple barriers.
Sara Browne
Our team has not come across them being used very much. We asked the solicitors who we work with, and they said it is too early to tell.
Rachel Horman
Could I make another point about the DVPOs? One big problem is that a breach of one is not a criminal offence. That means they do not really have any teeth, and also the grounds for making one are very similar to the grounds for prosecuting. If the grounds are made to prosecute for a crime, then why not do that? At least arrest and put them on Part 4 bail, because there is a 28‑day expiry and clients will not even be able to access legal aid, quite often, in 28 days. It takes a long time for them to get legal aid to put civil orders in place.
Mr Sharma
Are the domestic violence protection orders appropriate when considering violence against women within the family or, for example, so‑called honour‑based violence and killings?
Sara Browne
Our position is that we need to be very careful to separate training within the police on honour‑based violence and domestic violence. Absolutely there may be cases where there is domestic violence and also risk of honour‑based violence. Domestic violence can trigger honour‑based violence. What tends to happen is that it all gets mixed together. Honour‑based violence training is not happening across the country as it should be; it is extremely patchy, more so than domestic violence training. What happens is that the risks are not being spotted in terms of who the perpetrators could be. It could be not just close family members but wider family members and community members. We have worked with many extreme cases, where people have had a campaign of harassment from many different community members, often people who are unknown to them. You do get cases with contract killers and bounty killers involved even, as well. We need to be very careful that honour‑based violence is not being overlooked. At the moment, it is being sidestepped; there has been a lot of focus on FGM, but not on honour‑based violence and looking at risk.
Rosie Lewis
I would echo that, but I would say that we need to look at diversity within the overarching idea of what honour‑based violence is. We are going down a route where a lot of the training appears to be focusing on predominantly South Asian women and their experiences, whereas actually it is across the board. Honour‑based violence should really be about violence with regards to codes of honour, in terms of how the women are victimised and perpetrated against. There needs to be an understanding of cultural diversity and the way that there is perpetration through many different cultures of acts that fall under the honour‑based violence rubric, including cultures from Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Africa and South Asia. Again that gets back to the police having a really good amount of cultural competence, so that they are able to read situations and understand what they are going into, and that they are risk‑assessing appropriately.
Baroness O’Loan
To an extent you have dealt with your feelings about the protection afforded to women in the honour‑based‑killing situation, but I wanted to ask you: it is 10 years since Banaz Mahmod was murdered; have things improved at all since then? Could something similar happen again? Are you comfortable with the protection that young women are afforded? I suspect the answer is no.
Sara Browne
We think there have been improvements, but it is very patchy. There are some real basics that are not being done. I conducted some research last year seeking figures on honour‑based violence from a simple FOI request from all police forces. We were really shocked that one in five police forces was not able to provide the figures. That means that they were not flagging cases. Flagging is not just about understanding how many cases are going on; it is essential because, if police are not flagging cases, they are not collecting that data and having their eyes open to what is going on. They are not joining up the dots. With Banaz Mahmod’s case, she went to the police five times. There are many things; it all comes back to understanding risk—understanding that, if one sister has experienced honour‑based violence, what about the other sisters? It is all about stepping back and having training, but also that very basic thing of flagging. I am repeating that exercise now and we are just getting those reports back, but I have already seen that we have not had an improvement throughout so far, so I will provide that evidence when that comes through and also provide the report we did with 16 recommendations, which I can pass on to you.
Rachel Horman
From my experience, I would agree there have been improvements, but there are still huge problems and we still clearly need a lot of training for the police, social workers and teachers. Social workers and the police are still using family members to interpret, which is very dangerous, because they are likely to be the perpetrator. That is an issue. Also, social services are still treating young girls as being naughty and out of control, when actually it is a forced marriage issue. They side with the family. I have seen civil court cases adjourned for family mediation to take place to resolve it, which is very dangerous again and has been seen in a lot of the honour killings that have gone on, and then you have issues with refuge accommodation for the victims. If they have no recourse to public funds, then they cannot get in refuges and there are issues with legal aid as well.
Baroness Buscombe
To what extent do you think the police are afraid of intervening when this honour‑based violence and so on is within communities where the police are afraid of being accused of being racist?
Sara Browne
There is a problem with that, and there is also a problem with police engagement with communities. Quite often the response is to have police going out to mosques and so on. Often, it stops at meeting with male leaders of the community. We are working directly with women. I am the only person in our charity who is not from a Muslim background, but everyone else is. We have many women coming to us all of the time, but we do not see the police coming to do engagement work with us. The police need to build up trust with the women and girls who are at risk and that leads us on to education, which is absolutely essential. That is the big gaping hole.
Rosie Lewis
The police really need to work with organisations like ours. 6% of our referrals are self‑referrals from the community. Those women will not report directly to the police; it just would not be happening. That definitely needs to be recognised. Ms Baird mentioned that some police agencies are working closely with organisations such as ours. It is really effective when it happens; however, again it goes back to training and consistency, in terms of police response.
Baroness Berridge
The recent inspections have shown that there are still problems with the way that the police and prosecutions are responding in this matter. What are the main problems facing the women who you particularly work with and represent?
Sara Browne
Not being believed. That links on to the coercive control issue and issues like dowry and so on. It is their not being believed—we do not have a victim‑centred approach. If a woman is going to the police, that is a huge deal, particularly if she is from a community where going to the police is seen to be a shameful thing to do. She has been brought up to believe that she should not do that. By going to the police, she is putting herself at great risk. That heightens the risk that she is at. We need the police, first of all, to believe victims. If there is not that trust in those cases, that then comes out to the community. Why would other women then put themselves forward?
Rosie Lewis
For us, it is an understanding of wider complex needs and the additional barriers that many black and minority ethnic women face, especially the ones who we are supporting. Again, like I say, 6% do not speak English as their first language. You also have to think about basic skills, understanding of services and if they are able to access any services. They are usually not able to do that independently or without a lot of support. Immigration and no recourse to funds is a huge issue, because often, when police are going in, sometimes there is an amount of doubt about whether that victim is credible, because she has no recourse to funds. Also, on the effectiveness of supporting those victims, obviously there are certain routes to go down when women have no recourse to funds, in terms of applying for domestic violence concessions. There is very little understanding about how to support victims when there is no recourse to funds or there is uncertain immigration status. That is a big issue in terms of how victims are dealt with and policed as well. That comes into the mix.
Rachel Horman
The investigations by the police are often pitiful. It often results in no charges being brought, which puts them at more risk. They are not looking to try to find any other evidence other than the victim’s statement, which is really inappropriate. You get victims that are actually having to investigate their own crimes.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
You will have heard our previous witnesses were talking about this new proposed criminal offence of coercive control. In your experience, do you think it will be beneficial for the victims and survivors with whom you work or do you think it raises the kinds of problems that our previous witnesses raised?
Rachel Horman
I am very much in support of it. While I hear the argument that other legislation can be used, that is not actually happening in reality. I see clients every single day that are being told, “Come back when he hits you, because we cannot do anything.” Unless we can tackle it at the beginning and also look at what domestic violence actually is—it is not about just a black eye but the psychological coercive nature—then we are completely missing the point. I think it is essential.
Rosie Lewis
It helps us to understand violence against women and girls on a continuum. Rather than individualising different acts, it is actually a much broader spectrum, in terms of control. Also, we really need to think about evidence. We are finding it hard enough to come up with support for evidence for victims that have been physically abused. We have to think about how we are going to support, taking forward, things that are going to fall under coercive control. That comes on to the point that, if we have invested so much time and energy into domestic abuse services and IDVAs who are working with police, working in a multi‑agency forum, then we need to be working with them more, probably through the judicial system, in terms of looking at the evidence they present as well. They are experts in their field. They can provide that kind of evidence that women who have been through abuse find very difficult to come up with themselves, especially black and minority ethnic women, who face multiple barriers.
Sara Browne
We held a focus group with 14 of our clients and then we also met with all of our staff. Everyone was behind the criminalisation. People were talking about all sorts of things, like economic control. That was a really big issue, and I think dowry was going to come up as an issue, which is a very serious problem—direct control. People really felt that they were not being taken seriously, but also the perpetrators felt that they would not be taken seriously. That was a big thing. If the law was on the side of the victim and she could say, “This is wrong in this country, and these are my rights,” then that would help, but people need to know their rights. That is a big issue. If this behaviour is wrong, then everyone thought it should be criminal.
Baroness Berridge
Ms Browne, you just mentioned the fact of people knowing their rights. It surprises people in 21st‑century Britain how there can be both women and men growing up or being in communities that are incredibly cut off from what most of us experience. Their reading material and their access to technology can be very severely controlled. What strategy would you have to ensure that, somehow or other, we get to the most vulnerable women in these communities, who are living very closeted lives, to ensure that they do know their rights so that, when they need to step outside that, they know where to go? Would it be education in schools?
Sara Browne
It depends on the age group we are trying to reach. We have the Right to Know campaign at the moment. We have been backing the PSHE Bill, which is now being heard again in February. We want our issues to be covered within that. I know it very much has a focus on violence against women, but it is absolutely essential that we go into schools and that we go into all schools, because we need to reach everybody. What tends to happen is people say, “Okay, we will go into that particular city, that community,” but we need to be realistic. All children need to know about these issues, because they may be affected or their friends may be, or their communities and so on. We really do need to address these issues in terms of rights in schools. Also, teachers need to be trained to spot the risks and so on, because it is both about protection and knowing your rights in the first place, and knowing where to get help. Organisations like ours do a lot of work with women informing them about their rights and a lot of empowerment work. We need to be supported, and the reality is that we are not supported at all. We spend a lot of our time trying to get funding. It is so patchy; it is not sustainable.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws
I wanted to ask about legal aid, because we hear from a number of groups that say that the cuts to legal aid are actually impacting even more powerfully on minority groups of women around these issues. We know and have heard about the exception that is created for domestic violence, but we have also heard that it is not really being very effective. What is your experience of the issue of access to legal aid?
Rosie Lewis
BME women are disproportionately affected by this. There is no doubt about that. Again, it is going back to an uncertain immigration status and lack of recourse to funds. Many women cannot access social justice, and there are also a lot of obstacles in the way, in terms of the evidence that needs to be brought forward for women to be able to access legal aid as well. Not all women are necessarily put through the MARAC process or the high‑risk process at the right time, so therefore their evidence looks like it is less significant, even though they could have endured 20 years of horrific abuse.
Rachel Horman
The more controlling the situation and the less that a woman is able to get out of the house and out of that immediate community, the less likely there is to be any evidence in order to access legal aid. Also, the Legal Aid Agency is looking at bringing in a residence test, which will really impact these women.
Sara Browne
I would echo that. I was a legal aid lawyer and left because of the legal aid cuts. I was in immigration, which has been absolutely slashed, which has a direct impact on BME women. There are many different issues going on at once. Women may be kept at home, so they will not be able to sort out their immigration status. As you have touched on before, they are seen as the guilty party. In terms of the evidence that you need to gather, language problems and so on are a big problem. Also, the knock‑on impact on organisations like ours, without us getting any funding or extra support, means that we are taking on the role, and our advisers are saying that cases that might have taken a month or two before are taking an intensive six months or longer, because we are having to pick up the pieces, not as lawyers.
Rosie Lewis
Many of us are writing statements. Many of us are taking the women through non‑molestation orders and stuff ourselves, because there is no legal aid in support.
Sara Browne
Another issue is divorce. There are certain areas with which people will not get support, so they can be trapped. That has many implications within a community as well. You cannot move on, so there are lots of problems.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
I have a couple of questions. The first is specifically to Sara. Your organisation was quoted recently in what I felt was quite a shocking report in the Independent about dowry-related violence. Your organisation was quoted as saying, “Nearly every case we deal with involves some form of dowry abuse.” Could you just very briefly say a bit about how you see the problem and what could be done about it? If you are able to give us supplementary written evidence on that, that would be really helpful.
Sara Browne
It is something that we have not explicitly begun to look into, but we will. I was there at the meeting with Diane Nammi, our founder, and the journalist from the Independent. Certainly it is something that runs through it; we are dealing with marriage cases constantly, and dowry is one form of power and control that runs through all of those cases.
Rachel Horman
Dowry has a transnational status as well, because into that comes things like land, jewellery and gold. All of those things are other forms of control that are very clearly part of the dowry, which obviously involve even more coercive control over those women, because it involves family as well—family abroad or communities abroad too.
Sara Browne
Absolutely. There is a much wider pressure that people are trapped in, which can ultimately lead to suicide.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
We had some written evidence about the general issue of so‑called honour‑based evidence from the JAN Trust. I should declare an interest as a patron. They were raising the issue of the dangers of demonising entire communities. How can we avoid that but, at the same time, take it with the seriousness it has to be taken?
Rosie Lewis
I think very strongly that it goes back to what I was saying about this idea about honour‑based violence being this very specific thing. It is actually on a continuum of violence against women and girls. We must not remove aspects of so‑called culturally aligned perpetration from that spectrum of the way that violence is perpetrated. For us that is very fundamental. If you go down the route of just honour‑based violence, it becomes very ghettoised. It also means that it is reduced down to a singular thing with a set of expectations, with expectations around how the victim will be as well. We need to broaden our ideas about what honour‑based violence and domestic abuse are.
Sara Browne
We take a slightly different approach. Going back to what we were talking about at the beginning, the police need to understand what honour‑based violence is and what those risks are. Sometimes, the concern is more about community relations and so on than the victims. We feel that we need to take a risk‑based approach and that abuse is abuse. If anyone is at risk, we need to be understanding that risk, and that should be a priority. Abuse itself demonises all communities. Domestic violence affects everybody. For us, it is very much about focusing on who is in danger. Let us focus on that. We worry that those priorities can be sidelined sometimes, because there is a concern that we can have Rotherham‑type situations.
Baroness Buscombe
What we are talking about here is how to prevent totally unacceptable behaviour in a civilised society. Do you think we should be rethinking and revisiting our residency tests and our rules for citizenship, such that some form of deterrent should be introduced, or some form of education and training, among those who are seeking citizenship and residency in this country—I am thinking mostly of the men, obviously, in this situation—such that they understand that all of this behaviour is seriously not acceptable in this country?
Rosie Lewis
There are two sides to that, very briefly. Obviously violence against women and girls is across all cultures and all communities. Again, this comes back to how we understand honour‑based violence and do not ghettoise it into one particular culture. On the other side of it, again it is about that intervention work. It is work with men in all communities, making sure there are holistic services available for women, making sure that there is education and that that ongoing intervention work is done alongside it. I cannot respond for my organisation but, from my experience, I do not think it is necessary to do a residency test.
Baroness Buscombe
I am not saying do a residency test. What I am saying is to look at the rules of residency, so that people coming here understand that some things that they had thought acceptable in another culture are not acceptable here. I am not saying it is a risk of residency; I am just saying that they understand, they learn, that certain issues like those relating to dowry and honour‑based crime are not acceptable and will not be allowed.
Rosie Lewis
For the majority of the women we are supporting, the perpetrators are actually British. That would have a lot of implications on many of the women who we are currently supporting, in terms of looking at residency. For the majority of the women we are supporting, however, the perpetrators are British nationals.
Mr Sharma
My question is: do you think that this domestic violence regarding dowry, caste or any other cultural aspect is linked only to first‑generation Asians, or is it second‑ or third‑generation as well?
Rosie Lewis
It is definitely all generations.
Mr Sharma
Do you have cases concerning children born here?
Rosie Lewis
We have evidence of that, yes.
Sarah Teather
I want to ask you about the kinds of support and assistance we offer to victims during investigations and judicial proceedings. Obviously the Istanbul Convention requires parties to make that available, whether that is through governmental or non‑governmental organisations, or domestic violence councillors. I just wondered if you think we are fulfilling our obligations there. How particularly are we supporting women from black and ethnic minority backgrounds? I would be interested to hear your perspective.
Rachel Horman
I do not believe that we are fulfilling our obligations at all. While there is support in place, it is patchy and you only get an IDVA if you are classed as high risk in many areas, because of funding. If you are not classed as high risk, you do not really have any support going through the criminal justice system. Many victims feel like they have no voice within that at all. If you add a language barrier to it as well, it makes it even more difficult. The legal aid cuts mean that certain sections of society are alienated even more, because they cannot get access justice with that. No, I absolutely do not think we are.
Rosie Lewis
Many BME organisations have developed according to need, and those women need holistic support from beginning right through to recovery. That is something that is not really available in the majority of IDVA services. We are set up to get funding for the specific IDVA posts that we do, but the majority of IDVAs in Newcastle only work with victims for 12 weeks. If you consider that that victim has multiple barriers, that is obviously a very short amount of time. Often, they are not referring on to other services if there are other services for them to be referred to. You find repeat victimisation. I see women coming back through the MARAC system, suffering domestic abuse again and again, because they have not been given that holistic support that they need to enable them to go through the different legal proceedings to get the protection that they need.
Sara Browne
Also, the legal aid cuts mean that solicitors’ time with people is very restricted. Going back to not that long ago when I was practising, there was a difference in that you really were able to sit down with people, reassure them and explain the full system to them. You are now so restricted. That is one area, and then there is not enough support. We are overwhelmed. Particularly our Arabic‑ and Kurdish‑speaking advisers are overwhelmed. We could do with having many more advisers. In terms of across the country, it is one thing if you are in London, but there are definitely advice deserts.
Rachel Horman
There is no input for the victim within the criminal justice system at all. We see very often that the CPS lawyers are just not prepared; they do not know the case. The defence lawyers run rings around them. The victim does not get to speak to the CPS lawyer before. I think that, if there was a scheme where, when the police and the CPS were looking at the charges—because there is a massive issue of under‑charging and much lower offences being charged, because they are easy to prove, rather than a more serious one—there could be a meeting with either a lawyer or an IDVA, with the victim, the CPS and the police, the victim would feel much more a part of the process and more likely to go through.
Rosie Lewis
As I have demonstrated before, when 6% of our referrals are from the community, it is really important that specialist service provision is retained, and that is across the board. That is not just necessarily about BME communities but LGBT communities and other minority communities as well. They are able to meet their needs. If the victims’ needs are not met, there will be repeat victimisation on most occasions and that victim will be failed by the justice system.
Sara Browne
Another issue is that we have heard from the solicitors we are working with at the courts that there is under‑staffing. It is not a welcoming place at all. Obviously it is a stressful experience anyway, but apparently that has got much worse. At the same time, we are having a massive increase in people who are having to represent themselves and are seeing the judges get more and more grumpy about this. It is a real problem. As I said, divorce is an example.
Rachel Horman
The other issue is that, whilst we are obviously looking at the victims, the perpetrators in this are completely ignored and will go on from one family to the next to the next to the next. All their children will be removed by social services quite often, and nothing is done about the repeat perpetrator on different families unlike, say, a sex offender, where you might have a sex offender register. We do not have anything like that in terms of domestic violence, which then means that Clare’s Law does not work. If the perpetrator changes their name, then the Clare’s Law disclosure becomes very difficult and they just roam around causing chaos.
The Chair
You have been extremely helpful to us today. You have been very comprehensive. If you feel that there are issues we have not covered, please write to us. As I said to the previous panel, we are hopefully going to be making recommendations. We would be guided by some of the feelings that you have concerning our recommendations. Thank you very much. Oral evidence: Violence against women and girls, HC 594 19