Oral evidence: Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education and Sex and Relationships Education in Schools, HC 145Wednesday 19 November 2014
Oral evidence, 19 November 2014.
Witnesses
Dr Zoe Hilton, Head of Safeguarding and Child Protection, Child Exploitation and Online Protection Command, National Crime Agency, Eleanor Moody, Advocacy Manager, Girlguiding, Lauriane Povey, Author, Veil of Anonymity, and Alan Wood CBE, President, Association of Directors of Children’s Services, and Corporate Director of Children’s Services, London Borough of Hackney, gave evidence.
Chair
Hello and welcome. I know you will have listened to some of the previous session and I guess there is some overlap. When it comes to protecting children online, how do parents and teachers keep up with the technology and the potential threats and risks that lie within it and the many forms that can take? What is the most effective way of ensuring that we get the balance we just talked about between parents and schools, while keeping up and providing the competence and understanding to be able to support children to stay safe online? Who would like to pick up on that? Zoe, you caught my eye.
Dr Hilton
Part of the CEOP “Thinkuknow” programme is to do both. Our primary target is children and young people between the ages of four and 19. We have a range of different resources, but we are basically targeting them. We also have 100,000 professionals who use our resources and are logged into our site. We get our resources out there to professionals through a cascade model of training. We have 5,000 “ambassadors” training other professionals, and working directly with children and young people using age-appropriate resources such as cartoons and films—all of those things. They use them in school settings and in other settings where children and young people are. At the same time, we have also worked hard to develop our parents programme. We have a Parents Protect programme. We are working very closely with Parent Zone to develop resources with them. It is not one or the other.
Chair
How many parents do you think you have reached?
Dr Hilton
Fewer, because we are only now bringing our parents programme up to the same level in terms of our dissemination mechanism. Schools are easy and professionals are easy. Last year, we reached over 3 million children via the professional networks. Next year, our target is to reach between at least 2 million and 3 million parents, so that they are doing that direct work with the kids and we have both. We cannot just rely on either one; both are essential.
Chair
Do you have the resource to keep up with the need?
Dr Hilton
We could certainly have more. I have a small team of six working on this issue and developing these resources. We are very dependent on our networks. The whole concept of the “Thinkuknow” programme is that we are basically dependent on the professionals on the ground being proactive, getting themselves trained, having our ambassadors training, familiarising themselves with the available resources and then taking that out to children and young people.
Chair
How many ambassadors do you currently have? How many would you like to have for the network that you think would be most effective?
Dr Hilton
We have 5,000 ambassadors. That is probably a good number. To be more effective, we need an even greater range of schools. But we could easily double that, and over the coming years, we would certainly hope to go on expanding our ambassadors network, potentially by having other organisations also deliver our training. We continue to be ambitious about the ambassadors network, but we could certainly do more. We want to do more.
Chair
Lauriane, how do you feel that we can deal with what is essentially a generational thing linked to developing technology? All too often, teachers and parents are not necessarily using the technology that children are using. They are therefore distant from it and in a pretty weak position, without the training and information reaching them, so that they can support children. Do you have any thoughts on how on earth we bridge that gap?
Lauriane Povey
It is impossible to educate every single parent about Facebook, Twitter and all the other social networks. School is the easiest way to do it. Teachers who are teaching PSHE should be aware of Facebook and how to use it. You cannot teach about cyber-bullying and try to prevent it if you do not even know how Facebook and Twitter work or what Instagram, Snapchat and all the different apps are. Teachers need to be educated about it because, in this instance, pupils are more educated about cyber-bullying than their teachers.
Chair
Is it a fruitless task? What chance is there of getting teachers and parents to keep up with this technology, which, as you say, keeps moving all the time? Is it fundamentally impossible? That does not necessarily mean that we should do nothing. When you hear what Zoe describes, are you thinking, “Yes, that’ll sort it out.”?
Lauriane Povey
Possibly. Teachers will use Facebook and Twitter. The younger teachers could try to educate the older teachers who are teaching this.
Eleanor Moody
One thing about that is that one reason why we are calling for PHSE to be statutory is that the training of teachers would improve and would include greater emphasis on new technologies, such as cyber-bullying and so on. One of the key things we found at Girlguiding is that girls were experiencing bullying and sexual harassment at school, on and offline, and a key part of tackling cyber-bullying is also tackling the attitudes that create the abusive behaviour online. It is not only a case of teachers and professionals knowing about how the technology works, because young people will always know more than older people about that because they use it much more in their lives. Girls and young women are telling us that it is about abusive behaviour and the content of the cyber-bullying that is important to them, so teachers have a really important role in PHSE and SRE to understand the technology, but, as Lauriane said, they can’t be expected to know everything, nor can parents. Behaviours and attitudes must be tackled.
Chair
Alan?
Alan Wood
I think there are two issues. The one about children knowing more about technology, what is available and how to use it is critical. It is difficult to deal with that unless you are engaging young people themselves, because the teachers are the teachers and the teachers are the parents. Unless we have that access to the systems and the knowledge they have, it will always be difficult and we will always be playing catch-up. Involving young people in schools, youth centres and community groupings about how the technology is being used and its impact is important. The second issue is the security in institutions. When children are in school and have electronic equipment, what they are able to access within the confines of the school is important for local authorities and the Government to think through. Where there are systems such as the London Grid for Learning, what protection is there in the system to stop access being made by people in the school to material we don’t want them to access? That is an important question.
Chair
Is that fruitless? I wonder whether your first point might have more long-term benefit. If the only people who really know what is going on are young people, in the same way they can form gangs and bully online, perhaps we need to encourage them to work together and to have safety groupings within schools and other institutions to provide advice to one another. In this instance, peer support may be the only way of keeping up, because the only people who will know what is going on are likely to be the young people themselves, so we should encourage them to support one another.
Dr Hilton
Yes, and there has been some interesting mentoring work. The critical point though and the key plank of our programme is that this is about behaviour and not technology. We need to stick with that, and our work for parents, “The Parents’ and Carers’ Guide to the Internet”, which we launched a couple of years ago, is a basic guide to the technology, but it is trying to empower parents by saying, “Actually, you still have a massive parenting role here and knowledge about parenting and the world that you can impart. Your kids will always know a little bit more than you about the technology, but you are still in an essential part of this internet safety education.” The same is true of the Thinkuknow programme, which is primarily for professionals. Yes, children will run rings around you with their knowledge of the internet, and they will probably disable the security settings and so on. Recognise that now, but engage with them in dialogue and enable them to have the tools to keep themselves safe and understand all the issues that have been talked about this morning—power, consent and relationships—and try to give them those wider tools. Of course there are some technical issues that are important to know, such as setting privacy settings and so on, but on their own, those are simply the bare bones, and the richer education that needs to go on, certainly around our resources, is about how to manage relationships and the sort of risk taking that children and particularly adolescents engage in.
Pat Glass
I was surprised in 2010 when I became an MP—I don’t know about others—that anyone seems to be able to e-mail me or send me a message by social media and say anything, no matter how rude, or send me stuff, no matter how explicit. I am an adult, and I can just shrug that off and think, “They’re just sick, twisted or misled.” How important do you think the anonymity bit is around cyber-bullying? Are these the people who would just bully anyway using traditional methods, or is this a new form of bullying? Is it different people?
Lauriane Povey
I think it is different people. People who bully anonymously would not bully in person at all. Teachers do not need to know that much about the technologies themselves; they need to know what is right and what is wrong, and they can do that without understanding the technologies that well. In cases of anonymously spreading rumours online, children do not really understand that that is classed as cyber-bullying, because they are not actually talking to the victims themselves. When they are sending death threats online, they do not think that it is serious because they think, “I’m not going to carry it out, so it doesn’t matter. I’m not actually going to kill anyone, so why is it a problem?” Teachers need to educate that that is cyber-bullying and it is a huge problem.
Pat Glass
So there is an issue with teachers understanding about cyber-bullying, but you think it is not the traditional bullies—the people who would have bullied people in the schoolyard and taken their dinner money off them. It is different people, and it is emerging because of the anonymity.
Lauriane Povey
Yes.
Eleanor Moody
I think that is right. With the death threats and things, there is a sort of wall that they can hide behind. Our findings also show that people who are known to victims of cyber-bullying are doing the bullying. For example, in relationship abuse—we will get on to this, probably, when we talk about healthy relationships—we did a piece of research about controlling and coercive behaviour. That research showed that social media and online tools were being used as part of that controlling behaviour, which is bullying in relationships, and in teenage relationships. There is definitely a dimension of anonymity being a problem. That may be different bullies, but there is definitely also a problem about bullies using online tools as an additional way to amplify their bullying or to spread it more widely—for example, with sexting—to amplify the harm.
Alan Wood
I think it would be very difficult to say that there is a black and white case of: you are a bully who takes things from people in the schoolyard, or you are a bully who does things anonymously from your home and bedroom. I do not think there are those discrete groupings.
Chair
Has it brought in a whole new set of people who previously would not have bullied in the schoolyard, but who can bully online? Are there any gender splits here?
Eleanor Moody
From the evidence that we have heard with girls and women, especially in teenage relationships, it seems to be that it is boys harassing girls on cyber-bullying more. That is what our research evidence finds, and I think the NSPCC has found with their sexting research, which would back that up, that girls are being harassed through sexting from boys rather than the other way around to a greater extent. Especially where the context is sexual—sexual violence, sexual bullying—there would seem to be more emphasis on girls being adversely affected than boys, although of course it affects boys, too.
Alex Cunningham
And the more general stuff? Is it boy-on-boy, boy-on-girl or girl-on-girl bullying?
Eleanor Moody
With cyber-bullying, there is definitely girl-on-girl cyber-bullying, too.
Alex Cunningham
How much of it is actually based on sexual issues rather than the general stuff—the “I’m going to get you,” or “So-and-so hates you,” and so on?
Eleanor Moody
I haven’t seen evidence on that kind of split about where that sits.
Pat Glass
The Government has recently issued some additional information on cyber-bullying as part of its advice on bullying, and it refers to the wider search powers provided in the Education Act 2011. I sat on that Bill Committee, going through this line by line, and I do not ever remember that being in there. But they say it is in, so it must be in. Is it appropriate for teachers to be taking phones off young people and deleting certain files and apps? Can Government do more? I am thinking about things like Ask.fm, which is said to have been turned into a bullying website. Should the Government have the powers to delete these sites?
Lauriane Povey
I think the Government should give police more powers to track down the trolls on these sites, rather than banning the sites altogether. With the technology, I think the Government do not have the capabilities to ban the sites altogether. I think they should put more emphasis on finding the trolls who operate on these sites and bringing them to justice.
Pat Glass
We have seen some recent cases, particularly involving charity workers and MPs and so on, where people have been taken to court and gone to prison because of death threats or rape threats. Should it be more than just that? Should the police have the resources to track people and convict them if they just fall short of saying, “We’re going to rape you,” or, “We’re going to murder you.”?
Lauriane Povey
If it is constant and a minor is the victim—yes.
Pat Glass
What if the perpetrator is a minor?
Lauriane Povey
They will not know that at the time. In that case, I am not sure exactly what, justice-wise, should be done. They definitely should put effort into finding who is behind it.
Pat Glass
What about the others; do you think the Government could do more?
Alan Wood
I think giving guidance to schools and other institutions about sites that children access or how you provide information and advice is one thing. The issues are more localised. For example, the debate about whether young people should have access to their technology—mobile phones, iPads and tablets—at school is an issue. Some schools do not want the children to have mobile phones in school because of the possibility—
Chair
Could you speak up a bit please, Alan?
Alan Wood
Sorry.
Alex Cunningham
Are you suggesting that we should start banning these things from schools?
Alan Wood
I think that there is an issue about how children use electronic equipment that does not belong to the school and is not what the school is using as part of the curriculum. There is evidence, particularly of cyber-bullying in schools—kids are texting from one classroom to another or even within the classroom. Some schools have a clear policy that, if you have a mobile phone, you leave it in the school office and you do not have it with you in and around the school.
Pat Glass
We have had this discussion as part of another inquiry. Head teachers have said to us that it is a fact of life. If they took every phone off every kid, they would be in constant discussion or arguments and would create behavioural issues. It is just easier to say, “If you are caught with it and you use it in school, we will take it off you.”
Alan Wood
I think that different schools have different approaches. Some schools do that. Some schools have no policy whatever and others say, “No, you can’t have the phone.” It depends on the school, the way it organises itself, what it is trying to achieve and the nature of the problems that they have. I do not think that we can prescribe it. That is related to the point about giving guidance and advice nationally. You cannot prescribe the way those things work unless you understand what the situation is in the particular institution.
Chair
Do we have clarity about what is unacceptable behaviour? Doing something with your phone physically is one thing, but when is a snide remark acceptable? When does it start to become part of a pattern of behaviour, possibly by a group, in which no one individual has done that much? How do we define this problem and what do institutions such as schools do about it to minimise the likelihood of amplification, which I think somebody has already mentioned? The technology allows amplification, and a permanence that a few snide remarks in the playground do not have. Do we need a new way of looking at what otherwise would have been regarded as an inevitable part of growing up and, unless it was peculiarly sustained, not that pernicious? In this world, perhaps it is.
Eleanor Moody
There is a complete lack of clarity for young people about what abuse is and when it becomes abusive. Our research shows that with girls and young women, the lines are blurred when it comes to the reality and the theory. When you have a list of behaviours, they can quite easily tick off what is abusive and where consent is and is not. When you are put in front of real life situations, the lines are blurred. That is the difficulty with young people: they are in very complex situations with media influences all around them, their mobile phone with them all the time, constantly getting new and different information. It is a very confusing environment for adults and young people. One of the roles of SRE and PSHE is to give children and young people the space to discuss and think about those issues—where the boundaries are, and what is and is not acceptable behaviour—together, as groups with the guidance of expert tuition. That is why more resource for teacher training is really important. Girls are saying that their teachers are not trained well enough to do this. Consent is a huge issue, we know. There are blurred lines around consent, and this rape culture is kind of online, in everyone’s face, as it were, when it comes to young people. It is very confusing and it is creating a conducive context for sexual harassment in schools, which we have got quite a lot of evidence on. Girls are experiencing this day to day, and then you see it in wider society, with high levels of violence against women and girls as well.
Chair
Staying away from sexual violence and staying on general bullying—my snide remark amplified—how much of a problem is that? Should our focus primarily be on the issues around sexual violence, etc? To what extent does the amplification of the cyber-world cause greater damage to the well-being and mental health of young people than previously? The fundamental behaviours of the bully or the remark-maker may not have changed, but somehow has the technology made it worse, and thus more pernicious? Does it therefore need to be taken more seriously, or not?
Lauriane Povey
It is really hard to tell if something is a joke online or not, and I think schools should educate that it is hard to tell if something is a joke, and that some pupils are more sensitive to online remarks than others; if they would not be offended, someone else will be. They should give examples of things that could be considered a joke, but could be interpreted differently.
Chair
Zoe, any thoughts on that?
Dr Hilton
Yes. I think the technology has, as we have said, led to a distancing—to children and young people carelessly becoming involved in bullying; you can involve a wider network of people instantaneously. Obviously the bullying is 24/7, so it does not stop at the school gates. I think that that certainly has set out more challenges for young people. I think cyber-bullying needs to be gripped as a bullying issue by the school. There is guidance out there for schools on cyber-bullying. I am not undermining the complexities that schools face, but I do think it is something that needs to be addressed through a whole school approach. There is guidance for schools as well about sexting, where you have clearly illegal behaviour, where that line is, where you have illegal images, and what the responsibilities are to then involve the police, and what their responsibilities are. I think there is some guidance out there. I am not in any way undermining the challenges that schools face now, in trying to deal with all of this, because it is on their doorstep and in their school.
Chair
Are schools being effective in that respect? This is staying away from the sexting—just on the straightforward kind of bullying. You get friendship groups; someone falls out with the group. Is there sustained online bullying? My own children are living their lives, seemingly, on their phones; if somebody falls out with the friendship group and they continue to be discussed in a negative way, that would be catastrophic for many young people who are very sensitive. Are you saying that schools are managing to monitor that in some way, and tackle it?
Lauriane Povey
I think schools are scared to tackle behaviour that has happened outside school hours. I think schools should feel confident in punishing with detention or talking to a child who has been bullying another child at home, even if that child says it did not happen at school. If the parents then complain—“You can’t punish my child; it didn’t happen at school”—the Government should say to schools that they should be able to punish—reasonably punish, with detention, for example—or talk to the child about their behaviours, even if it was outside school.
Mr Ward
Some of the evidence that we have seen is really quite disturbing. There is an NSPCC survey on the subject. I am specifically looking at sexting now, but this applies to other things as well. Some 37% of 13 to 24-year-olds have sent a naked photo of themselves via a smartphone. Probably even more disturbing is that 49% believe it is just harmless fun. That is really worrying. Just how serious is this thing? Do you believe that we are at a crisis point? Presumably this is only going to happen more and more, unless steps are taken. Just how serious is it, and is enough being done?
Chair
Is this sexting in particular you are talking about?
Mr Ward
Sexting in particular, but it applies to all the different forms of social media used for bullying.
Dr Hilton
I am not minimising the issues with sexting, but I think the age group who are most likely to sext each other are actually young adults. The research shows that it is very prevalent in the adult population. Children, particularly older children, are looking at celebrities and at what the adult population is doing. In our advice, particularly for older teenagers aged 14 plus, we try to show how, if this is something you want to do, you do it safely—how would you do it anonymously? We have tried to give realistic advice, because we have reached the point with older teenagers where sexting is a normative behaviour, so we need to get them to recognise when it is abusive, harmful, or linked to exploitation or the beginning point of an exploitative relationship. We must recognise that it is something that some young people will do regardless of all the safety messages in the world, so we must look at how we can be realistic about the safety advice. One thing that we have tried to do as a programme is look at some of the research, particularly that carried out by David Finkelhor in the States, about safety messaging in schools—what is effective and what is not. We have been struck by some of the critiques of safety messaging where it is not realistic to what children and young people are experiencing. We have to be realistic about age, developmental stage and the choices that children and young people are making.
Mr Ward
Is there an age beyond which you are basically too old to be able to talk to young people? Should it be coming from young people? I am not looking at you in a particular way, but obviously a young recovered drug addict talking to young drug addicts is far more powerful than a 40-year-old youth worker saying, “This is not really good for you.”
Dr Hilton
I don’t know that that is true.
Alan Wood
No, I don’t think it is true. If you take young people involved in crime and have hardened criminals working with them, there is some evidence that shows that that does not deter young people at all—it encourages them to be involved in crime. It is not a truism that if you have an experience and talk to someone about it, you will improve their understanding of or response to that experience.
Mr Ward
I believe you have been back to your school, Lauriane; what was that experience like?
Lauriane Povey
I think that the children were probably more open to me than they would have been to teachers about their experience of cyber-bullying and what happens on Facebook. It has become normal for 14-year-old girls to have as their profile picture them stood in a bra, and the whole world can see that. That has become normal and acceptable in that age group, and that must be addressed. Have you heard of Snapchat?
Mr Ward
I use it every day.
Lauriane Povey
People think that when they send a photo on Snapchat it will disappear in three seconds, but young people need to be educated, because you can take screenshots of it and you can download third-party apps that will keep and store all the images that have been sent to you via Snapchat. So it does not necessarily disappear in three second. People use Snapchat for sexting, thinking that it will be gone in three to five seconds and that no one else will see it, but that is not the reality; you can store the images.
Mr Ward
Eleanor, I want to ask you a different question, although others can answer as well. You spoke earlier about attitudes that lead to abusive behaviour. To what extent has there been a societal change, particularly in terms of men and boys having a new, effective form of showing their attitudes towards girls and women, and to what extent has there been an actual change in the attitudes of men/boys to women/girls?
Eleanor Moody
The UK has a big problem with violence against women and girls, which is evident from the Home Office strategy—they recognise that. It is definitely not a new thing; violence against women and girls has been an issue and remains an issue. It is not being tackled in schools. Girls and women whom we speak to feel that it is an issue in their schools. They are being sexually harassed at school; we have evidence of that. I would agree that, as I said earlier, there is now a way to amplify some of those behaviours. Of course, it is not only boys and young men who are abusive; girls and young women can be abusive, too. There is definitely a gender dimension to teenage relationships. There is the context, external to schools, of how women are portrayed in the media versus men, and the gender roles that are portrayed; and we heard the previous panel talking about pornography. That has an impact, too. Young people we are speaking to are saying that they would like space and time to talk about that with their peers. With a lot of unacceptable behaviours, young people are not quite clear on whether they are acceptable or not. They need space and time to discuss those.
Mr Ward
I am asking you because I believe that it was your organisation that found that 40% of girls say that it is okay for a partner to make you tell them where you are all the time.
Eleanor Moody
Yes. What we found in that piece of research, which involved focus groups working with 75 girls and young women, was that social media is used as a tool. Controlling behaviour is perhaps escalating because of the nature of online activity, social media and social networking. You can check in all the time to say where you are. With social media, we are able to check where you are in the world and where you are in your community and at what time, who you are with, and who you are talking to. We found in that research that that is having an impact on teenage relationships. It can be used for coercion and control. There is not as much understanding of that among girls and young women as we would like, because lines are blurred.
Alex Cunningham
We see much in the media about people being groomed through cyberspace or whatever you want to call it. The Committee has heard evidence about the importance of SRE for protecting young people from sexual abuse, but we have already heard that schools could be doing a lot more. Are there other things that we as a Committee should be suggesting to Government that schools should be doing? Eleanor, you are nodding your head.
Eleanor Moody
There is one thing. To go back to the issue of sexual harassment of girls in school, we would like the bullying guidelines that the Government put out in October to include the gender dimension of tackling sexual harassment in school. They include SEN bullying, racist bullying and LGBT bullying, but we found that girls are experiencing very specific forms of sexual harassment at school, and how schools should be dealing with that is not covered in the guidance at all. We think that at the same time as all young people are learning about acceptable behaviour and consent in their sex and relationships education and PSHE, those school policies need to be in place, and that is one that we are calling for because we have spotted that gap.
Chair
Thank you. What more could schools be doing? Do you have any thoughts on that, Alan?
Alan Wood
Ofsted’s latest research on the teaching of PSHE in schools shows that 60% of the lessons that it observed were good or better, so there’s a whole chunk—40%—that weren’t. Even in the latest thematic report on CSE, published this morning, it makes reference to two cases of SRE teaching in schools, and in both cases, it says, although there were examples of some good preparation and planning for teachers, in the main there was inadequate provision for the training and development of teachers in the teaching of SRE. That is an area to which some serious attention needs to be given by Government, in terms of further advice to schools.
Alex Cunningham
So you all agree with the first panel that the training is an extremely important element from the start of a teacher’s career and throughout. You are all nodding your heads. Ofsted inspects safeguarding in schools, but not SRE. Is the link between the two clear enough for schools?
Alan Wood
I think it is becoming clearer. In the good schools, you will find that there is good connection, but I think that people are now understanding the importance of SRE. The evidence shows that good SRE teaching can have an impact on wider issues in children’s lives to do with their personal health, the age at which they engage in sex, and their understanding of sexual relationships, so I do think that there is a very clear evidence base for it. How we deal with it when we have a national curriculum that does not apply to all schools is quite a difficult one. We need to overcome that issue and make sure that the guidance that we give applies to all schools, and that all schools are required to follow it through.
Alex Cunningham
Zoe?
Dr Hilton
We see the issue the other way round, so an insight from our casework is more about seeing, from sex offenders’ behaviour, what they do, how they act and what they look for. We see in a lot of our cases—this is from online transcripts and other things—the way in which they manipulate and use children and young people’s risk-taking behaviour, naivety about sex and natural curiosity about sex. That is one of the ways that we have tried to reconfigure our programme—so that it sits within a PSHE or SRE framework. We want it to be taught in a way that is about consent and power in relationships, so that when children find themselves in those situations online where they are experimenting and taking risks—in adolescence, that is what they are programmed to do—they have the resilience to recognise the power and abuse, and what is going on from the sex offender point of view. Sex offenders will use everything they can to find a vulnerable child. They will look out for particular vulnerabilities, use that innocence, and make children appear to believe that something is normal and consensual when it is not. They will want them to get on the web cam and get undressed and all those things. We see that very starkly, so, to come back to your question, for our programme it really is the quality and consistency of that education in schools that is going to be the starting point.
Alex Cunningham
You have just stolen my next question in your last sentence. If we do get the balance right in schools, with teachers trained appropriately, could we expect to see a measurable impact on sexual exploitation statistics as a result of that?
Dr Hilton
That is very difficult, because sexual exploitation statistics are problematic. We have very few accurate, sensitive prevalence studies. Obviously, police recorded crime rates are an arguable quantity in some ways. From a professional perspective, I think you would see an impact because you would see that development of resilience, which is what offenders look to exploit, but that is more a professional judgment than to say, “Yes, in three years’ time, if you do this you will definitely see a reduction in recorded crime rates.” Actually, that may be a good or a bad thing in terms of understanding prevalence. I do not think that your statistics around exploitation are sensitive enough to pick up a policy change if one of this nature were to be made, but I think anecdotally—a lot of our evidence comes anecdotally through our professional network—you would see a good result.
Alex Cunningham
What sort of recommendations can we make in this area to the Government, apart from “Let’s train the teachers better” and “Let’s make it statutory”?
Alan Wood
There is something that we can get some comfort from if we look back over the last 20 to 30 years to see the way in which schools and society in general have dealt with major issues of education—for example, racism, homophobia, and the whole discussion about AIDS. I think what we learned from those programmes was that a commitment to them over the longer term does bring about a change in behaviours and attitudes. The sexual exploitation of children, domestic violence and all those issues are connected, and we need a campaign equivalent to that from Government about these issues to give people the confidence to talk about them in communities, and to be open about what they know and what they see.
Alex Cunningham
On something altogether separate—the role of local authorities—I know that in the world of academies they do not have some of the rights to dictate things to schools, but should they be providing leadership on SRE in terms of safeguarding responsibilities?
Alan Wood
I think they should, and I think they are. This has been given a very important jolt with the transfer of responsibility to local authorities for public health. There is now a better chance of all the guidance from the Chief Medical Officer, for example, being internalised within schools and supported by local authorities. That movement of responsibility to local authorities is really important. I do think that local authorities have a leading role in this, and it is a very weak authority that thinks that it does not.
Alex Cunningham
Do you think that there is any difficulty around the fact that, in many areas, schools are now very separate from the local authority?
Eleanor Moody
I do not think that I have got evidence to say one way or the other whether that is good or bad.
Chair
Does anyone else want to pick up on that?
Alan Wood
Good local authorities have a view about schools, which is that they are not particularly interested in the constitutional nature. What they are—
Alex Cunningham
I do appreciate that. It is a case of them being open to direction.
Alan Wood
I think it is about influence, persuasion and the moral leadership that local authorities have on these issues.
Alex Cunningham
Finally, Lauriane, I did not give you the chance to add anything else that you thought schools could be doing. I know you gave some evidence earlier about better information and things of that nature. Are there specific things that we should be telling the Government that they should be putting in guidance for schools?
Lauriane Povey
Specifically, defining what cyber-bullying is in different circumstances. Children know if they are being mean or not, but they do not know to what extent that is bullying. I think that should be made clear.
Eleanor Moody
I am sorry, I thought you were talking about the other issue.
Alex Cunningham
I was, but if you want to pitch in on this, you are welcome.
Eleanor Moody
On the abuse campaign, 85% of the girls and young women we surveyed think it is a fantastic campaign and support it. The DFE could do more to promote that in schools and make sure that schools are using that campaign. In terms of what you put forward to the Government, we would like to see certain issues covered in SRE as statutory: violence against women and girls; consent; and safety online. There is a list of issues that we would like to see put forward.
Alex Cunningham
Would you like to add a few more?
Eleanor Moody
We would like LGBT relationships to be covered. Girls and young women are saying that they would like information about that in their SRE lessons.
Siobhain McDonagh
How can SRE make a contribution to the protection of vulnerable children, including children in care and those who have special needs or a disability? Who currently provides SRE to vulnerable children, and are they suitably trained and supported?
Alan Wood
SRE mainly at the moment is delivered through schools, and that is where that responsibility would lie. It is important to be aware of the differences that sometimes are associated with vulnerable children, however defined, whether they are looked-after children—in the case of sex exploitation, they are a group that we are all very concerned about at the moment—or disabled, precisely because of Zoe’s points about children’s ability to be influenced, and their ability not to know how you normalise what you are being asked to do, against a set of “Is it right or is it wrong?” codes. As with any subject, you have to differentiate it, and it has to be tailored to the particular needs of the young people you are working with. However, around looked-after children, there has to be additional consideration, because, unfortunately, in too many cases, those children have movements of home and movements of setting. Again, there are children who have learning difficulties, who may not be quite clear about what is being said to them or why it is being said. I think sensitivity around those issues is going to be really important.
Dr Hilton
We have resources in our programme for children with mild to moderate learning difficulties with very special needs. For deaf children, our films are audio-described. We also have resources for LGBT, because I think that is a specific vulnerability that offenders look for. In terms of children in care homes, they are some of the most vulnerable to exploitation. In our parents and carers programme, we have resources for professionals working with that set of children. We need to be alive to the particular requirements that are needed.
Chair
Is it good enough, and do we need to do more? We have done various inquiries on children in residential care homes. The local authority that has corporate parenting responsibility could be hundreds of miles away, so when the child runs away, they do not actually get the post-runaway review or whatever meeting. These people are peculiarly vulnerable. They have often been sexually exploited. They are often craving emotional relationships, and are therefore open to sexual relationships, perhaps before they are otherwise ready. If ever there was a group that could do with some high-quality SRE to help them either stay on track or get on track and have the right balance of self-esteem and all the rest of it, it is these children.
Dr Hilton
Yes, I agree. It is not only about SRE, but about the combined safeguarding response: the return interview, the safeguarding plan, and looking at whether they are repeat missing. There are a whole series of things that SRE certainly sits in.
Chair
Alan, what is the experience of young people in care—I will take that as a particular sub-group—in terms of the SRE that they receive? Is any special effort going into it to make sure that they have well-trained professionals engaging with them and helping them make choices going forward through their teenage years?
Alan Wood
When a local authority makes a placement—for example, in a children’s home—it should make clear to the children’s home what the needs of the young person are and what educational placement has been arranged for the young person. It should also make clear that sexual exploitation must be taken account of and that they must be alert and aware of it. As you say, that class of children has historically been appallingly exploited in that way.
Chair
My question is, is it good enough? Does it happen?
Pat Glass
My experience is that children arrived in school and you didn’t know that they were looked after. I hope that the situation has improved, but often teachers had an extra child in their class and they had no idea that the child was looked after. So is it actually happening?
Alan Wood
I think it has improved, but there are still issues. The distance from home that children are placed is smaller now. They are much more likely to be in reach of the local authority, unless there is a special reason why the child should be removed a long way from home—for example, if they are subject to exploitation by gangs. The pressure that Parliament put on local authorities to bring children closer to their home, to focus more attention on their needs and to ensure everybody is clear about the risk they face from sexual exploitation has improved the situation.
Dr Hilton
There is a gap that I am conscious of, which we want to close. “Thinkuknow” is intended to be a universal programme, and you are talking about SRE in schools as a universal programme. A lot of the time, kids in situations such as care homes have gone beyond the utility of universal programmes and universal products, so we need to look at the other tiers of resources out there to do sexual exploitation prevention work. They need access to more specialist resources. I know how hard those resources can be to access for individual kids, because I have tried to get children into groups, and it is often the second and third tier that those young people need. Often, you don’t have as many resources available for them. There certainly could be more out there. It is also about group work, youth work and access to specialist sexual exploitation prevention services.
Chair
We, as a Committee, are keen to get it right for that group—if we can get it right for them, we will be getting it right for a lot of others. Do you have any specific thoughts or recommendations about that? Should there be a changed duty on schools? We are always nervous about that. If you have any thoughts about how we can improve matters for that most vulnerable of groups, that would be great.
Siobhain McDonagh
According to a YouGov poll, one in five adults believe it is normal for young people to have sex by the age of 14. At what age do young people need to start receiving SRE to protect them from sexual exploitation by either other young people or adults?
Lauriane Povey
In secondary school—from 11 or 12—because people are having sexual intercourse at the age of 13. Obviously, a lot aren’t, but you need to protect the ones who are. That is going to be really controversial, but I think it should be at secondary school.
Siobhain McDonagh
Not to me. I thought you might say younger than 11.
Alan Wood
I think the earlier the better, in the right context with the right content. We should be talking to children about the construct of relationships from a very early age in primary school. We know that, apart from anything else, children are vulnerable at all ages. I think it is important that we do it in an appropriate and effective way and use the resources not only of the school but of the wider community and other agencies such as the health service and the police.
Dr Hilton
I think it has to be appropriate to the school, the children and the community. I agree that you can do the relationship bit before secondary school. That is the critical bit, isn’t it? It is about power and consent. You can do those things without teaching the sex bit, which can come later.
Eleanor Moody
I agree. I think we should be talking to young people about attitudes from as early as possible in primary school, right the way through senior school. I was talking to a 13-year-old about her sex education. She said, “It was okay, but it didn’t talk to me about my life because I am not having sex. I am 13; I just want to know how to talk to boys.” The age appropriateness of it is really important. This may be contrary to what other people think, but actually they want to know less about the mechanics of sex, because they are getting that in science and biology. They want to know about relationships, and even younger children in primary school want to know that. The basic stuff, like how to talk to boys, is what they really want, so I think it’s really important that we listen to young people and hear what they need at the different ages, as well.
Lauriane Povey
The relationships stuff should start at the age of five; the sex part possibly at 11.
Craig Whittaker
Zoe, can I just ask you about CEOP and how you have narrowed the focus? I think you narrowed the programme to cover more sexual exploitation, but why have you done that?
Dr Hilton
In line with the organised crime strategy that we work to, CEOP command in particular is focused on preventing sexual exploitation of children. We have focused on how to prevent sexual exploitation, based on what we learn from all the operational work. So the whole model of the CEOP command is that our education and protect teams sit closely with our police and social workers, and can learn from the intelligence that we get. That has led us to think, “How do we prevent this? From a primary and secondary point of view, how do we get children and young people empowered, so that they can protect themselves from these kinds of behaviours?” because we see a lot—very directly—of the behaviours of sex offenders. We get between 200 and 300 reports a month from the public, but largely from children and young people, or their parents, talking about the kinds of issues they face in the online world, such as pressure to send sexual pictures, or get on web cams. Sometimes it is offline sexual exploitation as well. So it gives us a kind of visibility on some of the issues they are facing directly. We obviously have the professional network that gives us feedback and we also have the information that we get from our casework, which is often quite extensive, where we see sex offenders directly grooming children and young people, and the kinds of techniques they use. The techniques are very varied. With some sex offenders, you will never be able to empower a child to protect themselves from them because the manipulation is very direct and quick, and they will immediately just take over the child’s account, and almost hack in aggressively. With others, there is more of a kind of pattern of grooming, trust-building and manipulation. So styles change and are varied across the sex offender population, but they share a tendency to target deliberately the things that make children most vulnerable to exploitation. What we want to do is try to use that knowledge to prevent children from getting into these situations, and if they are in these situations to help them not to feel that they cannot report or take power back, by helping them to recognise the abuse and the exploitative nature of the situation that they are in.
Craig Whittaker
Can I just ask you about those points you have made? Do you think that making SRE statutory would make your programme much more accessible and more widely available to the young people who need it?
Dr Hilton
I suspect it would. We are not experts on how schools run, but one of the things about “Thinkuknow” is that it has been taught all over the curriculum, so sometimes it has been taught in computing and sometimes in other areas. But focusing on the fundamentals of the programme, we have found that it is most effectively explored not in the computing lessons, which are generally about setting the privacy settings and the technical stuff, but within PHSE or a good SRE programme.
Craig Whittaker
Okay. So, statutory or not?
Dr Hilton
I guess that if I had to choose between the two, I would say statutory, because that would enable schools to timetable it and all those things, and it would make sure that some form of PSHE happened. If there was some brilliant other way to ensure that schools taught good SRE or PSHE, I would be happy to go with that. I don’t think that we are coming from the perspective that it has to be statutory; we are coming from the perspective of, “We want this to happen most effectively as possible in schools, so that we can get to the maximum number of children and help them to stay safe.” Our most recent resource is all about two offline relationships, contrasting a positive relationship with a negative one. So, on the one hand, you see a story of a child being drawn into a group that is clearly exploitative; on the other hand, you see a young person navigating a normal, positive relationship with a young man. That is the purpose of our approach, to contrast the sort of relationship they should be trying to begin to engage in with how a sex offender behaves.
Siobhain McDonagh
How should the views and priorities of young people be incorporated into a school’s SRE policy? Who should decide what young people learn in SRE?
Lauriane Povey
Young people, to an extent, as Eleanor was saying, don’t want to know about it. Some of the kids I was speaking to on the PSHE day had just come from a sex lesson and I heard, “I don’t want to know about it”. They were about 11 or 12 years old. It is important to do it to an extent, but general relationship stuff at some point is more important. You should definitely listen to the kids. Most of them do not want to know the details of it all. At 11 or 12, cyber-bullying is probably more prevalent than learning about sexual exploitation.
Eleanor Moody
I think it is important, for safeguarding reasons, to have a separate curriculum on certain things, but within that and outside that, talking to young people about what they need and what they want. For example, asking them what they want to know about relationships and incorporating their ideas. It is crucial to listen to them first.
Chair
On that positive note, we will end. Thank you very much indeed. As I said, if you have any further thoughts on today, particularly around recommendations, do please be in touch. Thank you. Oral evidence: PSHE Education and SRE in schools, HC 145 5