Oral evidence: College of Policing, HC 800Tuesday 9 December 2014

Oral evidence, 9 December 2014.

Witnesses

Steve White, Chairman, and Andy Fittes, General Secretary, Police Federation of England and Wales, gave evidence.

Chair

Mr White, Mr Fittes, thank you very much for coming to talk to us about the College of Policing. The role of the Police Federation in the College is of course extremely important, because it is all about training and getting people ready for policing. However, in the research that I have done by going round the Palace, by talking to some of your members, there seems to be a complete lack of knowledge as to what the College of Policing is or does. If you were at this stage—and we know it is early days; it has only been in existence for two years, whereas Bramshill and other organisations have been there for a long time—how would you mark it out of 10, Mr White?

Steve White

Goodness, me. I think in terms of effort you are probably looking at an 8. In terms of outcomes you are probably looking at a 6.

Chair

Why is that? That is the impression I get from talking to people, and, certainly, we did not get an absolute endorsement from Sir Hugh just now. He raised a number of concerns about governance. What is going wrong with the College? What would you like to put right?

Steve White

I do not think it is so much what is going wrong with it. It is just that it is such a complex area to move from the NPIA to the concept of having a college. A lot of the time I think it is about mindset. You alluded to the knowledge around our members—exactly what the College of Policing is, and how is it going to affect them on a day-to-day basis. I think it is fair to say that probably the vast majority of officers have seen the College of Policing logo, when they have been doing some kind of branded training; but in terms of the concept of what the College wants to become, that has not been sold to the membership; and to be brutally frank officers hardly have a spare minute to think about things anyway, when they are on duty. Of course, backed with a reducing ability for forces to provide training for officers, because of reduced budgets, I think that ability to actually engage with the officers, around what the College of Policing is aspiring to do, is difficult. So it is not a case of blaming the College for where we are. It is a recognition that the time lines that they are working to are very challenging and it is going to take time to bed in.

Chair

Do they come out to you? Do they speak to the Federation and say, “Look, you represent thousands and thousands of officers—130,000 officers, and those who want to become officers”? How much time have they spent with yourselves talking about what should be in the training schedule and how you think it should be improved?

Steve White

The College of Policing and the Police Federation have a very strong relationship. I think it is fair to say that, at the start of the concept of the College of Policing, we had reservations. We now work very closely with the College. You know that we have a member who is a director.

Chair

Should you have more than one? You seem to have one member sitting on this board. We have heard that Sir Hugh thinks it is unwieldy, so one may be enough, but is it enough when the vast majority of people who are going to go through the College will join as constables?

Steve White

I think Sir Hugh made an interesting observation on the Professional Committee, which is where the detailed work is done. We have significant representation on that committee. Andy sits on the committee and provides advice and guidance. In terms of the directorship, the important thing is that our 124,000 members, whom we are here to represent, have an effective voice in the running of the College. I think it is fair to say that at first, when the College was being set up, we had reservations about effectively being completely outnumbered, but having said that, the voice of our current representative, Julia, is very effective and is listened to. What we need to ensure is that that voice continues, whatever the new board looks like. If the numbers are reduced, we need to ensure that we still have influence.

Chair

Mr Fittes, I was speaking to a police and crime commissioner who is a former chief constable. They talked about the years and years of training that go into becoming a police officer and how that has been reduced since the College began its work. Are you satisfied that there is enough quality going into the training of new officers, particularly regarding the certificate of policing, which one of our colleagues has referred to as the “bobby tax”? Do you think it is actually fit for purpose? Does it provide people with the certification necessary to be a police officer?

Andy Fittes

I think that certificate needs to be looked at. If we are going to attract the right people into policing for the future, it is something that needs to be developed. I know the College and the Professional Committee have discussed ways forward on that.

Chair

What is wrong with it at the moment? What is practically wrong with the certificate?

Andy Fittes

As a theoretical test, it doesn’t assess people properly for what they are needed to do. We have done some work with the College on the possible presence of unconscious bias. I know these things are being looked at, so I think it can be developed into a far better tool. The College is working very hard on this, and we support that work. I would give them a slightly higher mark that Steve did, because I see a lot of the work that occurs within the business areas. The quality of the work being produced is very good. I agree with Steve that some of the issues arise with delivery. Officers don’t have time to do the training that is being offered or is available to them.

Chair

It seems that the rules governing the admission of officers are going to be relaxed slightly so that people with minor convictions are going to be allowed to join the police force. We understand that that is something that is coming out of the College next year. We will ask Mr Marshall about it, of course. What do you feel about it?

Andy Fittes

My personal view is that I don’t think officers, or potential officers, should be allowed in with convictions.

Chair

Mr White?

Steve White

As an organisation, we have grave concerns in relation to that. We were talking earlier, in relation to the code, about a code of ethics. I think it would be a very dangerous road to go down. The relaxing of standards is not something that we should be looking at, and it is not something that we would support.

Chair

Finally from me, on BAME members, one of the reasons why the College was set up was to increase diversity. That’s what the Home Secretary said. What is the Federation doing to try to encourage more black and Asian people to join the force? I know that is not primarily your job, but are you doing much to ensure that it happens? When I went to the Police Federation conference last year, I didn’t see very many black and Asian full-time officials in the Federation. That is an issue of concern, isn’t it?

Steve White

You are absolutely right. One of the key recommendations for the reform of the PFEW is that we have a lead in relation to equality and diversity. We recognise that. Likewise, we recognise that the police service, as a whole, needs to change and adapt. We will help wherever we can. It is about getting into the communities and giving them the confidence to come forward and apply to the service.

Chair

Are you on track with your reforms?

Steve White

Absolutely.

Paul Flynn

When the ethics code becomes firmly established, do you expect to see a reduction in the number of complaints against police constables and police and crime commissioners?

Steve White

That is an interesting question. Clearly you have got to have a system in place that people have trust in, and you might say that if people had more trust in it, then you could see an increase in the number of complaints. Probably the measure should be about what complaints are upheld at the end of the process. More often than not, when police officers are dealing with people—when arresting them—those people do not like being arrested, so it generates a lot of complaints. The important thing of course is that police officers act professionally and adhere to the code while doing that. The code of conduct is pretty clear about officers transgressing the line in terms of conduct. The code of ethics is more of a mindset, and that will take a while to bed in. So, without wishing to sound as if I am fudging the question, one would hope that an increase in standards will reduce the number of complaints in the long term.

Paul Flynn

But is the code of conduct going to do the job? Is it a watchdog, a rottweiler or a pussycat without teeth or claws?

Steve White

The code of conduct is very comprehensive. Police officers are quite rightly held to account in relation to the code of conduct. Now we have the code of ethics, which is a bolt-on to that, and it is extremely important. It is something that the Police Federation of England and Wales has adopted in its entirety. Every police officer in the country now has to adhere to it, and quite rightly so.

Mr Winnick

A much fought-against change was when black people first went into the police force. We had horrifying stories in the media about what happened 25 or 30 years ago. As I say, all the indications are that some hopefully substantial improvements have occurred. Can you tell me, gentlemen, what happens if it comes to the attention of the Police Federation that some members have engaged in racist talk, sexist talk and so on? Is it considered, “Well, that’s private conversation, nothing to do with the Police Federation”, or do you take action?

Andy Fittes

That kind of behaviour is absolutely unacceptable wherever it happens. We are going through a transformational process, we are a professional organisation and we want to put that on a firm footing. For me as general secretary, part of my role is to develop that governance structure—we will not accept such behaviour and we will deal with it. At the moment there are some issues around that, because we do not have an internal code of conduct. It involves us, when we discover any behaviour that we feel has breached the code of conduct, referring it back to the member’s force, so that the force will deal with it internally. We can get better at dealing with that, but it is definitely unacceptable behaviour.

Mr Winnick

If we take the past two or three years—we will not go back further, or at least I will not go back further—how many disciplinary cases have you dealt with relating particularly and only to racist and sexist remarks and accusations of such remarks being made?

Andy Fittes

I have been a Federation representative since 1999. I have only been general secretary since May. Before that, I was a representative who looked after members who fell foul of misconduct matters, so probably, in my personal experience, two to three cases had elements of that as part of the misconduct process. That is on a personal basis. Obviously, we see—

Mr Winnick

Perhaps Mr White could help.

Steve White

Are you referring just to Federation representatives, or to membership of the Federation as a whole?

Mr Winnick

That is a good question. I was really referring to the Federation as a whole.

Steve White

In my personal experience, none at all. In my personal experience, I have not come across—

Chair

Sorry, will you repeat that?

Steve White

In my personal experience, I have not come across any cases at all of the nature you described.

Michael Ellis

A survey of members of the Police Federation, rank-and-file officers, not that long ago indicated that vast numbers—over 90%, if I remember correctly—were dissatisfied with the Police Federation that was representing them. Do you have any reason to believe that those figures would improve if those constables and sergeants that you represent were polled about it now?

Steve White

I would certainly like to think so. We have come a long way in the past six months since our Federation conference in May. We have adopted the principle of the 36 recommendations of the Normington review in order to change the organisation for the better.

Chair

What about actually adopting them, rather than the principle of them?

Steve White

Some of the recommendations we have already started to adopt. Indeed, there is a process of regulatory reform that is starting in February and in April next year, which requires the Home Secretary to sign off to put that on a firm footing. The interesting thing about the Federation at the moment is that we are highly regulated. It might be that in future we become completely deregulated, but there is not an appetite for Government to do that at the moment. Because of the regulations, for us to change the structure of the organisation we have to get the regulations changed. You are absolutely right to point this out, and we recognised ourselves that as an organisation we were failing in some respects towards our members. One of the biggest areas was communication with our members. That is something that part of the review process will change. We are adopting some of the reforms to enable that to happen at a rate of knots.

Michael Ellis

Good. So you agree with the Normington recommendations, do you? These are 36 recommendations that you accept, and it is just a question of implementing them—is that a fair characterisation of your position?

Steve White

There is detail around each of the recommendations. The report went to nearly 90 pages, but there is quite a lot of detail that needs to be worked through, which is why we have engaged an expert external company, Accenture, to help us through those processes and to do the work. In terms of the 36 recommendations, there was a clear mandate at conference for us to adopt them and we are working hard to do that, but it will take a bit of time.

Michael Ellis

What about changing the mechanism by which the rank and file pay their dues to the Police Federation? That is a subject of some controversy as well, is it not? The constables I have spoken to have raised with me the fact that they feel almost obliged to pay dues to the Police Federation, because they would be in difficulties if they did not. It has led to vast, enormous reserves of money being available at the Police Federation’s disposal, has it not? We went through all of this some months ago in this Committee. There are huge sums—tens of millions of pounds—sitting in bank accounts, in “No. 2” accounts or whatever they were euphemistically called. Do you think that that is something that you should be looking at—the mechanisms by which the rank and file pay their dues?

Andy Fittes

We definitely have to change how we process the money. It is a system that has not changed a great deal since the Federation was formed. The review tells us how to do that, and we will do it. As I said, I was with the Home Office yesterday, and I sent draft regulatory change that will enable that to happen. I have promised the Home Office that by April next year, I will deliver a full package of financial change and structural change to the organisation. That will deliver, within regulations, the openness and transparency that we need to reassure people on how their money is being treated and that it is being treated for the proper purposes.

Michael Ellis

That is reassuring. Do you think that the Police Federation is fairly characterised as a very litigious organisation, in that it has recourse to law on frequent occasion? Do you think that that would be a fair characterisation? Do you spend a lot of money on lawyers?

Andy Fittes

Our legal bill is high. For last year, it was around £9 million. It is a large chunk of our expenditure. That is the environment. We are a staff association. We look after members who work within a legal environment. When they need representation, whether it is related to criminal law, civil law or the police conduct regulations, that will cost money, because it is a legal process.

Michael Ellis

I, for one, would want you to do that. It is part of your function to look after your members, but £9 million per annum as a legal bill is enormous, is it not? Even bearing in mind what you say, is that not something that you could be looking at?

Andy Fittes

I would like it to be smaller.

Michael Ellis

Is it your highest category of spend? Is there anything that you spend more money on than lawyers at the moment—not that lawyers are necessarily an improper thing to spend money on, I hasten to add? I express an interest, as I was a barrister in practice, although not any more. The serious point is that it is a lot of your members’ money that you are spending in that way.

Andy Fittes

It is not just legal bills around defending members; there are also the legal processes on regulatory change. We seek legal advice on a lot of matters, and that is expensive.

Chair

Thank you. I assure you that Mr Ellis is not looking for work in declaring his interest. But the point is this: you say it is a big bill, but you authorised the payments in, for example, the Andrew Mitchell case. You decided that you would support your members—or your member, in that case—did you not?

Steve White

Yes, absolutely. It was absolutely the right thing to do. It is worth pointing out—clearly legal processes are still ongoing in that case—that we made every effort to avoid that case getting to court.

Chair

Yes. Do you think that the College has enough resources? One concern that we have in the report that we are doing on the College is that its two years are up in February. We are also looking at the rest of the landscape of policing, but in not quite as much detail as the College, because we are more interested in the College than in the other bits. We have done the NCA. Do you think it has enough money? The NPIA seemed to be very well resourced, but the College does not. It seems to be a case of “Let them sell their brand abroad, or wherever, in order to raise their money.” Do you think that is a good start for an organisation that everyone supports?

Steve White

You probably won’t be surprised to hear from me, the chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales, that no, I don’t think they do have sufficient resources, but then again, I don’t think a single force in the country has sufficient resources at the moment. We are up against a fiscal issue that we are having to grapple with.

Chair

Sure, but we are all suffering. Not “we”; you are suffering with your cuts. Indeed, Parliament itself was having to make cuts during this period. Do you think that because of the expectations—the Home Secretary had great expectations for the College, and this Committee has great expectations—we should have resourced the College better at the start, rather than leaving it in a position where it does not have sufficient money? If you do, what should the money be spent on?

Steve White

One of the areas in police training that certainly frustrates our members hugely is online training. We have seen a reduction in the number of staff training days, so instead of getting one-to-one training in an interactive session with a trainer, we are seeing an increased use of online packages. I have to say—

Chair

That is a real problem, isn’t it? I refer to the former chief constable who said to me, “In the old days you could get better training, face-to-face training.” If the PCSOs and constables are not going out with the trainees and they have to go online when dealing with the College of Policing, it’s a problem, isn’t it, to get people trained?

Steve White

Yes, and it is one of the ways that the College of Policing are trying to get the best bang for their buck in the delivery of training. I have to say that the quality of that online training has actually improved significantly over the years that it has been available. Having said that, officers do find it hugely frustrating, but the other thing that they find—

Chair

It should be face-to-face, shouldn’t it, because you will be dealing with the public?

Steve White

In an ideal world, yes, of course, and it should be done on a group basis so that you can interact and learn from each other, but of course the other frustrating thing for our officers is finding the time to do the training. It is all very well to have a wonderful online package, but then you have to ensure that you have the ability to actually sit down and pay attention to it in a constructive way, as opposed to in between calls, meal breaks or whatever. Of course, there is a cost implication to that, and it all adds up.

Chair

Mr Fittes, how long was your training before you became a full-time general secretary?

Andy Fittes

I cannot beat Sir Hugh; it has been 27 years since I joined the police. My training was five months.

Chair

No, you certainly can’t beat Sir Hugh.

Andy Fittes

I had five months’ residential training at Hendon.

Chair

Five months at Hendon?

Andy Fittes

Yes. And then, obviously, part of my two-year probation period after that.

Chair

So it was five months’ training and then probation for two years.

Andy Fittes

That is what I did. You don’t do that any more.

Chair

Right. Mr White—the same?

Steve White

It’s interesting, isn’t it? It depends on how you specialise, as well. You have your basic level of training, like Andy’s, where it is three months’ residential and two years on the job, but then of course, if you train to become a sergeant or inspector and do the qualifications required for that, or if you specialise in road policing and firearms, as I did, then there is a significant amount of training. I have never tried to add it all up, but I should think a significant amount of my 26 years has been spent in training. I have to say that the last time I did any training, it was purely for a Federation course. It doesn’t happen as often as it used to.

Chair

Do you do your own courses at your headquarters, which the Committee has visited?

Steve White

Absolutely—modular courses.

Chair

Why do you do your own courses and provide extra support?

Steve White

It is interesting, isn’t it? We have seen an increase in uptake from our representatives around the country wanting to come to training courses at Federation House, because forces no longer provide a lot of training. For example, training in media handling used to be provided regularly at supervisory level within forces. It doesn’t happen any more, but we still provide it for our representatives. We have to make sure that our representatives are trained to do the job that they are required to do.

Chair

Because it is not being provided anywhere else?

Steve White

Absolutely, yes.

Nicola Blackwood

I just want to follow up on some of your discussion with Mr Ellis about legal fees, because I didn’t quite follow it. What is your overall budget? Not for legal fees, just overall.

Steve White

For the Police Federation of England and Wales?

Nicola Blackwood

Yes.

Steve White

In terms of us as a body, it is in the region of £24 million a year.

Nicola Blackwood

And how much would you say that you have spent on legal fees this year?

Steve White

As Andy alluded to earlier, it is about £9 million. Over the past few years, despite there being a decrease in the membership of 16,000 and a decrease in the costs of the organisation, we have actually seen a higher proportion of members’ subscriptions being spent on legal fees, which is the right thing that we should be doing. We are spending less on everything else and more on legal fees to support our members.

Nicola Blackwood

Just as an example to give us a sense of how much you might spend on a case, how much was spent on the Andrew Mitchell case defence?

Steve White

I think that the cost schedule for our expenditure to date was in the region of £938,000.

Nicola Blackwood

I want to follow up on your answer to Mr Winnick about the bullying allegations, about which we obviously heard as part of our previous inquiry. You have made the statement that you are not aware of any incidents of that kind, but you have also been discussing the code of ethics and the code of conduct that has come down from the College of Policing. What is the Police Federation doing to embed that within the Federation? Do you do specific work and training within your own teams?

Steve White

Yes, absolutely. In fact, since conference in May we have rolled out anti-bullying workshops throughout headquarters. Every single member of staff and representative has gone through that training and we have just got to the end of it, if my memory serves.

Andy Fittes

Yes, and also the code of ethics will become incorporated into the code of conduct in the opening chapter. We do a course on misconduct and the code of conduct for our representatives, so they will obviously start to learn the code of ethics as part of that—in fact, it is the first thing that they do.

Michael Ellis

Gentlemen, I have a couple of questions. Do you think that members of the Police Federation should be prepared to pay for membership of the College of Policing? How is the College going to find alternative sources of revenue?

Steve White

I think—in fact, I know—that there would be huge resistance if officers who are facing massive issues in relation to their pay and conditions were asked to fork out extra money in order to continue to do their role. As a matter of principle, we are very glad that the College of Policing has recently said that for the next three years basic membership will be free of charge. The College of Policing needs to provide the tools and the training for officers to do their job.

Michael Ellis

Someone’s got to pay for it.

Steve White

But the public demand and expect that to be the case, and I think that the public would also expect officers to be trained as part of the role.

Michael Ellis

Do you think that perhaps the dues that come to the Police Federation, which have amounted to tens of millions in the Police Federation’s bank accounts, could go down a little, thereby also helping police constables and sergeants with the money that comes out of their wage packets?

Andy Fittes

The recommendation in the review talks about exactly that—giving something back to the members—and that is something that we have to deal with. I think that benefit to the Members is a good idea. On your original question about the College and subscription fees, as the Chair previously mentioned, if you speak to a lot of officers, they do not know that the College exists. In order to win over those officers, the College has to sell benefit: an officer on the street has to think, “This is going to help me in my career” before you can introduce the idea of having to pay for something.

Michael Ellis

I have one other question on a totally different subject: police uniforms. I think that the Police Federation takes an interest in uniforms—it is part of the myriad of responsibilities. In some jurisdictions in the United States there is a concern that police uniforms have become quasi-militarised, and there are one or two in this country who feel that uniforms have changed, particularly outside of the Metropolitan Police, which has maintained more of a traditional uniform look. Do you wish to make any observations about police uniforms in this country?

Steve White

I have a couple of observations. First and foremost, the uniform must be practical—it has to be fit for purpose. To be brutally frank, the traditional image of the British bobby in a tunic with the traditional helmet might look nice but it is not entirely practical. Having said that, I have been a police officer for 26 years, and I think that for all those 26 years we have been talking about having a national police uniform, which we would certainly encourage. There has never been agreement—you have 43 different trousers, 43 different shirts, 43 different helmets, which seems to be nonsense. I think there is room to standardise stuff, but it has to be fit for purpose. The other thing is that policing has developed, and expertise has developed within policing. What is practical for one role is not necessarily practical for another.

Michael Ellis

No, and I appreciate that for specialist roles, there will always be differences in uniform. I think you are absolutely right about the 43 different purchases of trousers, or whatever it is. I am sure that some substantial cost savings can be made there, if they are not already. In terms of the militarisation, almost—the look of the uniform becoming quasi-military in some aspects, certainly in some constabulary areas—do you agree with that concern? Or do you think that that is misguided?

Andy Fittes

Although I would agree with Steve that uniform has to be practical and functional, I am a Metropolitan Police officer and I like our uniform—

Michael Ellis

So do many of your colleagues.

Andy Fittes

Yes. There is a thing around: we cannot stop the public engaging with us, and there is this image thing where if you look too much like a paramilitary enforcement officer, people will stop talking to you. We have to be really careful that we do not go too far down that road.

Tim Loughton

May I come back to what Mr Ellis was saying? What are the standard subscription fees to the federation?

Andy Fittes

It is just over £21 a month—£21.40, I think.

Tim Loughton

And what was it three or four years ago? Has it changed?

Andy Fittes

It has actually stayed frozen for the last three years.

Tim Loughton

May I come on to the National Police Chiefs’ Council, and your take on how it will differ from ACPO?

Andy Fittes

It is early days. We have congratulated Sara Thornton on her appointment and asked for an early meeting. How it will differ from ACPO is that it is not a limited company by decree, for a start, which I think is good. Apart from that, it is a developing organisation. It is a slimmed-down, representative body of chiefs. We need to engage with them, and I think we find out as we go along exactly where the differences will occur. As Sir Hugh said, it will deliver exactly the same function. It is in the Met but not of the Met. At the moment, it seems pretty much like ACPO under a new name, apart from the fact that it is not a limited company by decree. I am sure that they will develop along different lines as they go forward.

Tim Loughton

Do you agree with that, Mr White?

Steve White

Yes, I think I do. We have a constructive relationship with ACPO, as is. I am sure that that will continue under the National Police Chiefs’ Council. Myself and Andy have presented to the chiefs’ council recently. It is definitely a useful forum for us, and I think that that will continue. We will work constructively with Sara in her new role, and I look forward to building that relationship with them.

Tim Loughton

So it is largely a rebranding exercise, as you see it?

Steve White

Let us wait and see. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and we are going through major structural reform ourselves. Although we have not changed our name, we are going through major structural reform. In fact, interestingly, I think someone commented earlier that there is not a part of the police service that is not being restructured or reformed at the moment. It is a case of “wait and see.”

Tim Loughton

In that case, if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and all sorts of other clichés, how would you like it to be different from ACPO so that it would suit your purposes better in the interests of your members?

Steve White

That is an interesting question. I think that the separation of some of the historic responsibilities that ACPO had into the College of Policing is to be welcomed. I think the distinction between the National Police Chiefs’ Council being operational is encouraging, because it has made that distinction. From a staff association perspective, it means that we have got some clarity. If it is around learning and development, we have got the College of Policing. If it is around operational issues and matters that we need to deal with, it is the National Police Chiefs’ Council. That has provided some clarity for us.

Tim Loughton

Do you think that the dynamics of the relationship between individual constabularies and the new council will be different from how it was with ACPO, or not?

Steve White

To be perfectly frank, I do not know. We will have to wait and see.

Andy Fittes

On that point, I think that there are some good areas where we can work together on this, such as the pay review body. We were not keen on the pay review body replacing the PNB, but it is here now. My colleague and I are working really hard to do our submissions, but I think what ourselves, the chiefs and the superintendents association have all said is that it would be better to work together to give a view on policing, on police pay, wherever we can. If we can agree on the evidence—we are not always going to agree on every single aspect, but wherever we can—that would be a stronger voice to the pay review body if we do it on behalf of policing. It would be good to work with a new body together; in the past perhaps we have worked to opposing or just different streams. We have not tried that.

Yasmin Qureshi

I just wanted to mention the legal costs that you had. It is right to say—I think it is quite proper, so this is not in any way intended as a criticism—that quite often when you have officers who are charged with, or have to deal with, legal matters, you often get the best lawyers in the business, and you often tend to have to go privately to pay for that. Is that probably one of the reasons why the legal bill is quite high?

Steve White

Yes, that is quite right. Of course, that is one of the benefits, or it is the major benefit, of being a member, and that is why our subscription rates are in excess of 98%, because members understand the benefit—if they only need one issue that needs legal support, it will certainly pay back in spades their subscriptions.

Yasmin Qureshi

You said that you have contacted the Chair of the Police College to have a discussion. What sorts of issues will you be discussing?

Steve White

Is this in relation to the National Police Chiefs’ Council and Sara Thornton? Well, clearly they will be about how we are going to work together; where we have common goals; where we have agreement; and more importantly perhaps, where we have disagreement. And at the top of the organisation, in terms of chief constables, and of course our members, who actually do the policing, there needs to be that strong relationship, so that when we criticise or have issues we can work through those processes. It is about building that relationship, as far as I am concerned, so that when we can see the problems coming along, we can deal with them and get on with policing our communities, which is the most important thing.

Andy Fittes

And with regard to the College, we both have regular meetings with Alex and I think we are looking for collaborative ways we can work together, to deliver things such as the BME 2018 project. That has our full support and if we share good practice, we can hopefully move the organisations forward. We need to do it; as you said earlier on, Chair, we both need to do the same things.

Paul Flynn

Police Constable James Patrick was the whistleblower who wrote a blog, and later a book, exposing the way that crime figures were falsified by the Met police. He has left the police now, but there is a possibility that there might be repercussions as far as his previous conduct was concerned. As he is a former member of the Federation, will the Federation be defending him in any action taken?

Steve White

If he was a subscribing member at the time of the allegations, then he would be represented and entitled to representation; certainly representation, yes.

Paul Flynn

Thank you.

Chair

Is it now time to turn the page? Can you tell this Committee that after all that has happened in the last year, the Federation has now turned the page and is looking to the future?

Steve White

Unequivocally, yes. The organisation is working very hard, looking forward to the next couple of years. The delivery of the reforms that Sir David Normington has recommended is well on track. Certainly, the noises that we are getting from the Home Office are that we are going in the right direction. But of course the important thing around all of this is that with the adoption of the new core purpose that the Federation has immediately adopted around public interest and indeed putting our members at the heart of everything that we do, to be a slimmed-down but more responsive organisation, I think we are well on track for that.

Chair

And in respect of the Committee’s recommendations, have you now returned some of the subscription money to your members?

Steve White

Not yet, but it’s a work in progress. Sadly, the current structure of the way that we are financed is hugely complex. It’s hugely complex and it will take some time to unravel. If we get to the point where we can do that, and I hope that we can, then we will.

Chair

What do you mean, “If you can get to the point”? Don’t you want to send them their money back?

Steve White

No, no, no—we will get to the point where we can assess it, and then we will determine what we can then do.

Chair

Right, but it’s still your intention to give them their subscriptions back?

Steve White

If we can afford to do it, then I see no reason why we couldn’t. Having said that, of course there is an awful lot of complexity in terms of, well, who does it go to? Is it all current subscriber members? Is it previous subscribing members? How do we do it and of course, more importantly, can we afford it, or can we actually give benefits back to our members in a different way?

Chair

It sounds a bit like equivocation to me, Mr White.

Steve White

If I could give you a definitive answer, then I would, but we’re six months in and there is still a lot to do.

Chair

Are you saying this is subject to discussions on your executive, which need to be concluded before—?

Steve White

Certainly. Across the whole of the organisation, there is a huge amount of work to do around the finances.

Chair

Will you write to us and tell us the final sum—? They’re not going to get their cheques for Christmas?

Steve White

Sadly not—not this Christmas.

Chair

Mr White and Mr Fittes, thank you very much for coming in to give evidence, and may we wish you a very happy Christmas and a happy new year?

Steve White

The same to you.

Andy Fittes

Thank you. Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce, Chair, and Alex Marshall QPM, Chief Executive, College of Policing, gave evidence.

Chair

Thank you very much for giving evidence. We did say to you, when you last appeared, that we would be inviting you back to look at progress for the College over the last year and a half. It is going to be two years next February, so the Committee decided to have a look at progress that has been made at an early stage. It is part of an inquiry we are doing on the landscape of policing. When we produce the report, it will look at the NCA and other organisations, so we are not just picking on your, Mr Marshall. We are looking at the whole landscape, but we are looking particularly at the College, because we all have high expectations for it. You have discovered, Dame Shirley, that it is not Loughborough, is it?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

No, but it has some things in common with Loughborough: a real commitment to continue to improve, which I welcome.

Chair

Mr Marshall, you must have been disappointed with the evidence of two of our witnesses. First of all, we have Sir Hugh saying that it will only get credibility once it is independent, and that at the moment you are owned by the Home Secretary—and she does tend to use you a lot when she is making set speeches, I have noticed, over the last 18 months. Secondly, you heard that the College is getting only six out of 10 from the Police Federation. It must be disappointing that you did not quite get the plaudits that perhaps you would have expected after 18 months.

Alex Marshall

I think they made realistic comments. It was interesting that the other officer from the Federation, Andy Fittes, said he would have given a higher mark than that if he had been asked. But I think they raise real concerns about how independent we are seen to be and about the connection we have or have not made with our membership in policing.

Chair

Would you like to break free—in the words of the song—from the Home Secretary and become a truly independent body? I know it is difficult for you, because you are the chief executive of this organisation and obviously as we have heard, you are owned—not you personally, but the organisation—by the Home Secretary. Would it give you more credibility if you were that independent organisation? For example, like the organisation that was headed by Dame Shirley Pearce? An organisation independent of the Home Office.

Alex Marshall

I think it is very important that we assert our independence. For example, there is nobody from the Home Office on the board that holds me to account, and I am also a board member. There is nobody from the Home Office on the Professional Committee that you heard referenced by the other witnesses, where much of the day-to-day work and the current priorities and standards undertaken by the College, are discussed and agreed. But we cannot escape the fact that two thirds of our funding comes from the taxpayer via the Home Office and that in law, as a company limited by guarantee, as well as an arm’s length body, clearly there is involvement of the Home Secretary.

Chair

So if that was changed and we recommended that, actually, it should be independent—of course, we cannot stop you being funded by the taxpayer, you have to be—that would be better for you, credibility-wise.

Alex Marshall

Chair, long term, our intention is to achieve chartered status—we would like to be the Royal College of Policing—but we know, to get to that point, one of the first hurdles via the Treasury is to achieve a majority of our income other than grant in aid. I am pleased that we are making progress in that direction, but we are not there yet.

Chair

In terms of the recommendations of this Committee in our last report, how many have you implemented, Dame Shirley?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

Specific recommendations?

Chair

We recommended that you be given the opportunity to re-appoint the board. Have you now been given the opportunity to refashion the board? We felt it was very odd: the board was appointed first, then of course you were appointed.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

That’s right.

Chair

That has now become something of a tradition in the Home Office with their various appointments—that you get the panel in first and then the chair. Have you been given any discretion to appoint members of the board?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

Yes, let me tell you what we have done, because I think it is a very significant piece of work that we have just completed and which the board approved at its last meeting. We have done a review of the board effectiveness and that was a thorough piece of work that involved debates and questionnaires and interviews with members. It showed up two big features. One is that many board members felt a tension between their role as directors of the College and their representativeness for the organisations from where they were appointed. That is not a healthy dynamic on a board. It also became very clear that they felt that the board was too big. So, to cut a long story short, the board has agreed to reduce itself in size.

Chair

So you have the power to do that.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

We have a power to do that.

Chair

You do not have to ask the Home Secretary?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

It is currently with the Home Secretary for approval, but she is being kept in touch with our recommendations all the way through, and all the messages are that she welcomes this.

Chair

So you are telling this Committee, in respect of the first recommendation that we put in our conclusions, that you have done your review, the board is too big and you want it reduced; and you have given that piece of work to the Home Secretary, with your recommendation that it be reduced.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

Yes, and we are recommending that it reduces from 15 to 11, and that the number of PCCs reduces to one, and the number of ACPO members reduces to one, so that all the representative parts of policing have one member there.

Chair

Have you done anything about ethnic representation? We were very concerned that out of the board that was previously constituted, there was only one ethnic minority person on the board.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

There is still only one ethnic minority person on the board, but we are about to advertise for another independent non-executive director, and we will do all that we can to ensure that we use that position to increase the diversity of the board.

Yasmin Qureshi

Can I just ask in relation to the constitution of the board, is there any room for—from the previous list it appeared that there did not seem to be a space for—say, somebody from either the Crown Prosecution Service or maybe a lawyer or somebody serving, or a senior lawyer coming on to the board, bearing in mind that you are discussing ethics and practices and codes.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

There are a number of gaps in expertise and that is why we did the board review and why we want to open up the number of independent members on the board. Legal knowledge is one; educational knowledge and understanding of how professional bodies work is another. So there are a number of skills gaps that we want to use the freeing-up that we are currently delivering through this review to deliver.

Chair

Very helpful. Mr Marshall, this is the problem that you have. I have asked every police officer I have met today. I have met 15 police officers—there are an awful lot of them around Westminster—about the College of Policing, and none of them has heard of you. They have heard of Bramshill, but none of them has heard of the College of Policing. The other problem that you have is the certificate of knowledge in policing, which currently costs £1,000, which many feel is a deterrent towards people becoming a police officer. Do you understand those concerns? One, your communication issue: people just do not know you are there. They still remember Bramshill, obviously—that great class organisation, which I am sure you passed through in order to get to where you are today; but they just do not know the existence of the College. They do not know what you are there for. You are still very much a village story.

Alex Marshall

I think I would dispute that we are a village story, but I definitely recognise that people working on the front line of policing are not yet fully aware of their professional body and what it offers them. However, we run an online knowledge area for people on the front-line of policing; 60,000 people in policing have joined that online knowledge area. We provide online training for officers. Every force in the country has signed up for that, and, actually, more than 300,000 people have registered for our online learning. We publish a newsletter and between 8,000 and 10,000 people a month are taking that newsletter. Next April, we will launch a membership system, and at that point all those people are already involved with us—which is tens of thousands and in one case hundreds of thousands of people—who are engaging with their professional body, the College of Policing, probably without really thinking consciously that it is their professional body, and our name: they will then be invited to join as a member and register with us. Then I think there will be a much greater connection between us and them. In recognising that problem, for me it has been very important to get that connection to teams of officers at the front end; therefore I used an officer from pretty much every force in the country as a front-line champion, so somebody who is on the front line of policing. We paid the salary for that person for six months to make the connection between people on front-line teams and their professional body. That proved hugely beneficial.

Chair

That’s very helpful, but you heard what the Police Federation said about when they did their training and when you did your training. It wasn’t all online; it was face-to-face. You get your best police officers and—dare I say it? It shows my age—your Dixon of Dock Greens.

Tim Loughton

PC 49.

Mr Winnick

Is that a reference to me?

Chair

Mr Loughton is younger than me. You get it through the day-to-day experience of doing things. Much of your training, in respect of the certificate of knowledge and policing, is now online, so people are not getting the necessary personal training. What percentage of those who get their certificate get it online?

Alex Marshall

The certificate in knowledge of policing is delivered face-to-face. We are not a training organisation; we don’t provide training, although we do some leadership development training and some specialist training. We set the curriculum for policing and we set the training requirements—the educational requirements. In some cases—domestic abuse is a very good example—we set national training, and we say what the training outcome should be. We are not a training provider. On the certificate—

Chair

I know you are not the trainer, but, with respect, that is the problem. You are not the training provider, so you franchise out training to private companies. That’s right, isn’t it?

Alex Marshall

Police forces are by far—

Chair

Is that right or wrong?

Alex Marshall

In a very small number of cases—

Chair

The biggest provider of the certificate is an online company. Did you know that? Do you know the name of the company that is the biggest overall provider of the certificate in knowledge of policing?

Alex Marshall

No, I don’t know the name of the company, but I have looked—

Chair

That’s a surprise, because it’s the biggest provider for those who get their online certificate. My office rang it up today. It is called Blue Light Publishing. It is a private company, and it is the biggest single provider of the certificate in knowledge of policing. One would have thought that when you train people, some will pass and some will fail the exams. Do you know what the success rate is for those who go online with Blue Light Publishing?

Alex Marshall

I don’t know the online success rate of that particular company. The providers of the knowledge of policing that I have looked at previously provide face-to-face training. One provider provides online training, and the certificate in knowledge of policing is a pre-entry requirement for only a very small number of forces.

Chair

But it is for the Met, which is the biggest, isn’t it?

Alex Marshall

It is a requirement for the Met, yes.

Chair

So the biggest force requires it. The biggest overall provider of the certificate in knowledge is a company called Blue Light Publishing. My office rang it up this morning, having gone to your website, and they were told that nobody fails. It has a 100% pass rate, because if someone looks as if they are going to fail, it rings them up and helps them get over the last few questions. What confidence can we have when people pay between £850 and £1,000 to get a certificate to work for the Met and when there is a 100% pass rate?

Alex Marshall

To work for the Met, the person would then have to do the training that the Met provides—the initial training for the Metropolitan Police—and they would have to complete their two-year probation.

Chair

But they have to have the certificate first.

Alex Marshall

To get through the door, they have to have the certificate.

Chair

Yes, but there is a 100% pass rate. Nobody fails.

Alex Marshall

Which seems a very odd pass rate. The questions about the certificate in knowledge of policing are questions we are asking in the College. It is a system we inherited. We did not introduce the certificate in knowledge of policing; we inherited it. I have undertaken to review it, and that work is now going on.

Chair

So you accept that it is not fit for purpose at the moment, and that there is work that needs to be done.

Alex Marshall

I’d say that there is no clear evidence at the moment about its success or failure because it has been running for a relatively short period of time. There have been enough questions asked about it for me to review the way that the certificate in knowledge of policing is run.

Chair

I suggest that you do what my office did this morning: go on to your own website, ring up that company and ask to go online. You will find that it is not based in London—I don’t know whether it is based in Dubai or somewhere else. You need to find out who is providing this kind of support. I urge you, as the chief executive of this organisation, to do so. That is the best way to move forward.

Mr Winnick

May I seek clarification? The Chair’s comments are extremely interesting, and I am surprised that the chair and the chief executive of the College of Policing were not aware of that. To clarify the point, those who pass through the online process do not become police officers, but it is a successful way of making an application to become a police officer. We should make that absolutely clear. Am I right?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

Yes. May I just add that one of the themes that runs through the challenge we have on pretty much every front is the variation between how the forces operate the standards we set? So it is a different process to get into the force in one place from another.

Chair

Of course, and we do want to see this, but the Met requires a certificate of policing and I would be grateful if you would have a look at that, Mr Marshall, since you are the provider and it is all on your website. One final question from me before I go to Ms Qureshi: do you think that is why the Commissioner seems to lack the confidence in the College that he ought to have? He keeps talking about the body of knowledge being held in big universities. We would like to see the body of knowledge being held by the College, with all the police forces coming to it. We see the College as the central training ground, not other universities, so why does he keep talking about them rather than the College?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

I have had lots of discussions with Sir Bernard about this. His central point, with which I have huge sympathy, is that across the country we do not have departments of policing, which are bits of the university that really care about the academic base for policing. That is what is different for policing compared with medicine or the health professions, which we know are so different. I do not think it is the place of the College to be the provider of all knowledge. It is a signposting place—it sets the standards. It should be encouraging forces to work with universities to create the infrastructure which the profession needs. At the moment, the profession of policing and the people delivering policing are expected to behave professionally, but they do not have the infrastructure that other professions have. They do not have a knowledge base that is easily accessible, so the forces and universities need to be establishing partnerships to grow that knowledge base and the College needs to support that, not take its place. I understand where Sir Bernard is coming from. I have not perceived it as him thinking that we are failing to deliver, but rather that the universities and forces need to work better together, and we will do all we can do encourage that.

Yasmin Qureshi

I want to explore a couple of areas. First, I understand that not all police forces require the certificate of entry, but for those that do, such as the Metropolitan Police, it costs something like £800 to £1,000. Can the College of Policing do anything about that, such as abolish the need to get a certificate?

Alex Marshall

We are the organisation that sets the national entry requirements, so we could decide that this pre-qualification was not good and we could change the system. Also, in terms of paying that fee, the two biggest forces that require this certificate before joining also provide bursaries on application from people who are finding it hard to pay that cost.

Yasmin Qureshi

That is if people go to places that give bursaries, but not everyone who wants to apply for the certificate will get a bursary. Are you not therefore effectively excluding quite a lot of the people from financially disadvantaged families who the Metropolitan Police probably want to attract? A thousand pounds is a lot of money. I am a barrister and when I was practising each year I had to pay for my professional development training, but a thousand quid was too much to pay and a young person who wants to be a police officer would have to pay that sort of money in London. Will the College consider either getting rid of this entry qualification or, if not, to make it free so that, if people pass it, they can go ahead?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

As Alex says, we are looking at that at the moment. It is not our entry qualification—it is not us who say, “You must have a CKP.”

Yasmin Qureshi

Who tells the police that they do not need to have that as a prerequisite to joining the police force—is that the Home Office?

Alex Marshall

There are a number of ways that somebody can apply for the police and they have to meet a minimum standard. One of the ways of meeting that standard is the certificate in knowledge of policing and we licensed the providers of that certificate. We are going to review it. We have heard some of the questions that you are raising elsewhere as well and we think that those are important questions that we need to answer. But I should also stress that organisations like the Metropolitan Police are looking at how they ensure that it does not prevent someone who cannot afford it from joining the police by helping them financially or by incorporating the certificate into their first few weeks of learning.

Yasmin Qureshi

I understand that they will try to assist, but I am just saying that the ground reality is that if you are a young person who is thinking of joining, the fact that you have to pay this sort of money will automatically put you off. You therefore may be automatically preventing many young people from applying. I do not have a quarrel about a test or certain processes, but you shouldn’t have to pay to apply for a job. It is about the only job for which you need to apply for a certificate. The financial side should be not only reconsidered, but taken out.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

That is quite difficult, because other professions do have up-front costs for trainees.

Chair

Thank you. Just before I bring in Mr Flynn, have you visited any of the online providers?

Alex Marshall

I have not personally visited the online providers. There is a part of the organisation that looks after the licensing of the providers for this particular piece of training. It is not the majority of the training.

Chair

May I suggest to you, as the chief executive, that you try to visit one of them? This is something that we say to the Home Office when they have online providers for English language tests and indeed to the DVLA. It is worth a visit. The Committee will be trying to visit one of them before the inquiry is over. It is really important, because there is a lot of interest in this and a lot of concern about online provision.

Alex Marshall

Chair, may I just make a point? I am of course happy to visit one of the CKP providers. The majority of online training is via our own organisation. The system is called NCALT, and I have visited the provider many times. Online training is also put on by local forces, using the College of Policing NCALT system. Most online training in policing is not provided by a private company; it is provided by the College of Policing.

Chair

Yes, but the biggest provider for the certificate of policing is a private sector company. I think it would be worth your visiting. We certainly will be.

Paul Flynn

You heard the previous evidence and the concern that we have about endemic corruption, particularly in the Met. What is the best that you hope for from the code of ethics and what is the worst that you fear?

Alex Marshall

I thought it was interesting to hear from the Police Federation earlier that it now uses the code of ethics as the starting point for its own training. The code of ethics also features all the way through the covert police training that we provide through the College of Policing and helps people to understand how to make difficult ethical decisions when working in difficult environments. For me, the success of the code of ethics will be that it is seen as being professional. A code of ethics or conduct is used in all the serious professions. This is one aspect that we want to introduce to raise professional standards in policing. It will be a success when it is used on a daily basis by people in policing who have to make difficult decisions. Anecdotally, we are already hearing how the code of ethics is being used in that way by front-line professionals, but we only published it and it was only laid as a code of practice four months ago, so it is very early days. We have conducted research into how codes of ethics succeed in other professions and organisations and it is quite clear that if it is led from the top, if it is reinforced throughout someone’s career and if people are reminded of it in a tangible way with real examples, it improves integrity and raises professional standards.

Paul Flynn

Have you got an example that you can quote of a success?

Alex Marshall

In medicine, in accountancy and in many others. We conducted a proper piece of research to see that where codes of ethics have been introduced, they have produced beneficial results. We are happy to share that research with you.

Paul Flynn

Have you read the report on Operation Tiberius? Are you aware of its completion?

Alex Marshall

Only the headlines.

Paul Flynn

It was linked to The Independent, and I think it is available there.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

The code is a very important framework for helping officers on the front line use their discretion with confidence in the very difficult situations that they find themselves in every day. If they are able to account for what they have done using the nine policing principles, if they know why they chose a particular piece of action, because there is evidence that that is the right thing to do, if they showed respect and selflessness and if they were transparent about how they operated, they should expect their senior officers to support them if anything goes wrong. They will have used a framework—a professional code. That, for me, is the value of it. It is about empowering people on the front line to feel that they are making the right decisions.

Paul Flynn

Do you expect it to have an influence on the conduct of brand new police and crime commissioners and chief constables? The number of complaints made against them recently has been lamentable.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

I very much hope that everybody in policing will value those policing principles and will, as it says in the code, use them to challenge when they see behaviour that is less than they might desire. That is one of the values of the code that we haven’t talked a lot about today but that is terribly important, because in a very hierarchical environment it is quite difficult to challenge, particularly upwards. If there is a document and an expectation that that will happen, I think it will. It will be more likely, anyway.

Paul Flynn

In the country of Georgia, they had a police force that was endemically corrupt, and their solution was to sack them all and start again. Do you think there are elements of the Met where that would be the only solution?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

I don’t think I will comment on that.

Chair

Thank you so much for that, Mr Flynn.

Tim Loughton

To follow on from Mr Flynn, do you think there should be stronger sanctions for those who break the code of ethics?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

We should not have a simplistic notion of what breaking the code of ethics is. It is a set of principles that help to guide your behaviour. I hope they will be discussed, and I hope that if people feel that somebody near them hasn’t delivered perfectly to the code, it will be discussed without their feeling that a ton of bricks will come down on them. That is how behaviour improves and learning happens. Clearly, if there is sufficient deviation from the principles, all the things in the code of ethics about conduct and misconduct come into play, but there has to be a recognition that, at the lower level, there is a degree of latitude. We want people to use the code to learn.

Tim Loughton

There is a bit of a grey area, and it is not just the College of Policing—it also applies to the medical colleges in particular—about when a low-level breach is not taken seriously enough and it should become a misconduct matter. Doctors, surgeons, or whatever, are perceived to be getting away without consequences. Given some of the past instances under your predecessors, it is perhaps more of a possibility within the police. How are you going to guard so that your thresholds are rather more tightly defined, and therefore respected by the police, the public and scrutineers?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

There is no perfect way of being confident that you are guarding against that. You have to keep talking about it, and you have to make it clear to the public so that they have an understanding of what you are doing. Transparency is the way we have to do it. We have to keep talking about it. All the evidence that Alex is talking about shows that codes of ethics work well where they are continually referred to and used, where they are the discussion around the water cooler, et cetera.

Tim Loughton

Given our earlier conversation about the lack of brand awareness from your own police members, the brand awareness among the public is going to be even lower. It is important that the public have confidence in the police and an awareness of what a code of ethics actually means and the implications of not living up to it at whatever level. How are you going to sell yourselves rather more transparently and robustly to the public in terms of your actual role and when they should be able to judge whether you are taking that role competently, or whether you are soft-pedalling on police members, as it might be seen?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

Obviously that is a challenge. We will have to use a variety of different ways to engage the public. We will make all our consultations public. At the moment we have the leadership review, and we are inviting comment from the public, as well as from within the police service. I am quite confident that, once we have our membership platform up and running, and once people know their members and are getting communications from us, it will be helpful. At the moment, we cannot communicate directly with our members. We don’t have their e-mail addresses, and we have to do it through forces, which is a bit of a handicap. It would be very helpful to be able to do that. I am not at all surprised that many people on the front line do not know us, because we have not been able to communicate directly with them. I would welcome being able to do that.

Tim Loughton

I think you have a bigger problem than police commissioners have had. The awareness of police commissioners, both when they were first invented, in terms of people turning out to vote for them, and even now after they have been around for a couple of years, other than perhaps for those who have deviated from their job—they became rather more high profile—is a real problem. How does one actually raise that awareness with the public? Just having consultations in public is fine and good, but it does not make the public actually aware of you.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

No. We have to use lots of opportunities. Alex’s media appearance rate has increased dramatically over the past year—

Tim Loughton

There is only one of him, that’s the trouble.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

There is only one of him.

Tim Loughton

Linked to that—getting a “royal” in front of your name may help—what other steps does the College need to take to become a chartered body other than the funding self-sufficiency that we have already covered? What more will it take to get to that point?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

We have to demonstrate that we are delivering what we say that we are delivering. I am personally less bothered about rushing towards chartered status and more concerned that we get the things that we are doing now right. So you will not find us on the board having great long discussions at the moment about getting to royal chartered status. We are really concerned to get to our members, understand that the learning packages are fit for purpose and deliver something that we are all confident about. Then we can start thinking about whether the Privy Council thinks that we meet its criteria.

Alex Marshall

May I add to the previous point?

Chair

Yes, of course.

Alex Marshall

Thank you. One of the ways in which the public will increasingly notice what we are doing is through the standards reset for policing. We are responsible for setting the standards for police forces in England and Wales and the professional standards for individuals. This week is a good example, because domestic abuse standards will be published—a draft will go out to public consultation for the next eight weeks. Clearly, it is an issue rightly with a very high profile. Last night’s “Panorama” programme was also a very good example and showed the use of body-worn video that had been trialled through the College of Policing and deployed in Hampshire and Essex in the examples given. So through matters and issues that are really important to the public, they will see that we are the organisation publishing standards, that we are raising standards in policing and that we put those standards online. In the past few months, we have put all the standards for policing on our website so that the public can see the standards that are set locally.

Mr Winnick

You started off with a budget, as I understand it, for 2013-14 of around £50 million. Is that correct?

Alex Marshall

No, that is the grant in aid element of our funding.

Mr Winnick

Yes, but in the information I have, it is described as a budget for 2013-14 of around £50.

Alex Marshall

No, it is about £76 million.

Mr Winnick

So the information that I have is incorrect. Okay. Now, as I understand the position—I hope the information given is correct—the Home Secretary decided that in the third year there will be reduced central funding and you will be expected to find ways of financing yourself. Is that correct?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

We are suffering reductions in funding like every other public body, yes, but we are also looking to supplement our income with commercial activities.

Alex Marshall

Just to be clear, there is not a three-year deadline on our funding. We are anticipating that we may receive cuts in our funding in line with the sort of cuts that are happening elsewhere in the police service, but there is no cliff edge to the funding that we receive from the Government.

Mr Winnick

You are working on the basis that central Government funding for the College will be steadily reduced—

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

For the foreseeable future—

Mr Winnick

Yes or no?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

Yes.

Mr Winnick

When it comes to membership fees, there is some doubt. In a report, which obviously you have seen, we expressed concern that that is not necessarily the best way of raising revenue. In order to survive, obviously organisations like yourself would have expected in the past to rely on central Government funding, but in this different financial climate it is not surprising that that is not going to be so. Are you saying in effect to the Committee today that you are quite satisfied, on the basis of reduced central funding, that you will be able to meet all your costs and to have sufficient funds?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

We could always do with more resource, but we are satisfied that in the near future we can manage with the resources that we have. We cannot predict too far into the future, because we do not know exactly what is going to happen. We do not want to charge members for basic things that you might expect they should benefit from as part of doing their job.

Mr Winnick

That remains policy?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

That remains our policy for as long as we can afford, through the Home Office grant, to do that. We think it is reasonable to charge people for services that benefit them for their personal career development, and other member services that are not central to their delivering their role. Especially since we are an organisation that sets standards for forces—employers as well as members—we think that, for as long as we can manage to subsidise basic membership, that is what the board would like to do. In April, we will be putting our membership platform up. We will make it quite clear which services are basic, and which ones we would expect people to pay for.

Alex Marshall

From April, someone working in policing who needs access to the materials, knowledge and training to do their job can get that as part of their basic membership at no cost to them, but we know that many people in policing are willing to pay for other services—for example, if they are going for a promotion, they might go to a private company that provides services around that—and we will make a premium package available for people who want to pay. In terms of our overall income, we already earn money from our work internationally from running events, selling training, and from publications.

Mr Winnick

Internationally?

Alex Marshall

Yes, and we have seen an increase in that in the last year. Already about a third of our total income comes from other than taxpayers’ money.

Mr Winnick

Chief Constable—Chief Executive, I should say now—can you give some indication of contacts internationally where you are giving assistance?

Alex Marshall

Yes. It is a long list of countries that we engage with all over the world.

Mr Winnick

Could all the countries be described as democratic?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

We can provide a list.

Mr Winnick

Perhaps it would be useful, Chair, to have a list of those countries.

Chair

It would, and that would be extremely helpful. Although we welcome the fact that you are doing international work—it is very important—Dame Shirley’s point about getting it right in this country, when there is so much that needs to be done, is probably where we need to concentrate. I have a couple of points before we end. You have heard what others said about your proposal to relax the rules governing those who join the police force and allowing people with previous convictions. This was in the public domain. It has not been published by you, so you have obviously got a whistleblower—a leaker in the College of Policing. You need to have a look at your leaks, Mr Marshall. It was in The Mail on Sunday, I think, that you were going to allow people with previous convictions or cautions to become police officers. Why is that?

Alex Marshall

I do not recognise that at all. I do not think it is correct. I am not sure where—

Chair

Is it correct or not?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

It is not correct for the College of Policing. The newspaper article that we saw said that it was the Met that was going to be doing this.

Chair

So it is not the College. The College is not going to relax the rules?

Alex Marshall

We are not relaxing anything, Chair. We are responsible for the vetting guidance that is published nationally. That is currently being reviewed. One of the main aspects of the review is to make sure that people are vetted not only when they join, but continuously throughout their time in the police, and I think it should strengthen that. It has raised the question of whether somebody who had a minor conviction as a juvenile could still get into the police. The basic rule is that any conviction at all means you cannot get in.

Chair

And you are not changing that?

Alex Marshall

We do not intend to change it, Chair.

Chair

That is clear. You cannot be clearer than that. There is no need to go on. We accept that. It is nice to have a straight answer like that. Have you seen the Babu report?

Alex Marshall

No, Chair.

Chair

A report has been written by Commander Babu for the Metropolitan Police. It is about the lack of ethnic minority police officers who manage to get through the certificate of policing. You have not seen it. The Met has not shared it with you?

Alex Marshall

No.

Chair

Could you get a copy? As you know, when you last appeared before this Committee in February, I expressed disappointment about your record as chief constable of Hampshire. The number of ethnic minority officers declined while you were there. Are you doing better at the College of Policing? In terms of your management board, how many are from the ethnic minority community? What is the percentage at the senior level of the College?

Alex Marshall

Chair, we are still recruiting into the College. We are still saying goodbye to people and still recruiting people in. We have now recruited into the top three levels of the organisation. That is 88 people. Half of those—50%—are women, and 10% are BME.

Chair

At the highest levels, since you have these tiers, how many are from the BME community?

Alex Marshall

Of the executive, which is five people, there are none.

Chair

One of the reasons that you were set up by the Home Secretary was to make sure that you could increase diversity. One of the concerns—if you read the Babu report which has been prepared for the Metropolitan Police, it says that we have great difficulties in this regard. We obviously want police officers of merit, not just because they happen to be of a particular ethnicity. You would agree with that, wouldn’t you?

Alex Marshall

I would, and you will have heard the Federation make reference to the BME 2018 programme. One of the big pieces of work that we have undertaken is to look at how we can fundamentally change the look of the senior leadership in policing by 2018. You heard Dame Shirley also reference the review of leadership that we are currently undertaking. The BME 2018 work is important in that it reaches down into policing and looks at people who are currently sergeants, inspectors and chief inspectors, and how we develop them through the system over the next few years. I am very pleased with how that is going. We are already seeing many of those people being promoted on merit, and we think that that looks positive for the future.

Chair

We will send you a letter. If you could give us some statistics, that would be very helpful. Dame Shirley, has it been difficult after being in Loughborough and in the academic world to suddenly mix with all these police officers? Is there a different culture or is there an understanding that what you want to create is a very highly respected college—an international and hopefully a royal college—that will be almost as good, if not better, than Bramshill? Bramshill is still remembered as the high watermark of police achievement.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

It is, although its record on diversity in policing will not have been strong. When you walk through the corridors and see the pictures on the walls, you do not think that that was an area of success. That is something that we have to change.

Chair

It is probably a hotel now. What is Bramshill now?

Alex Marshall

It is still part of the College of Policing.

Chair

Oh really? That is very good. Are you full time or part time?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

I am very much part time.

Chair

How many days a month?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

At the moment—I was two days a week, and for the last six months I have been three days a week. I go back to two days after Christmas.

Chair

Would it be a better idea if, at the inaugural stages of this organisation, you were full time to see through some of these big changes? Are you doing other things that prevent you from being full time?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

I am doing other things.

Chair

So even if they said, “Do this full time,” you could not do it?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

It has not been suggested to me.

Chair

But if it was—I am not offering it to you.

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

I would give it some thought.

Chair

Clearly, it is a big piece of work, isn’t it?

Professor Dame Shirley Pearce

It is a huge piece of work. You asked me what my impressions were and what my experience has been. I have had the huge opportunity—that was one of the reasons for increasing my hours over the last six months—to go out and see people in all parts of policing, doing all sorts of jobs in both front-line and support roles. I have been hugely impressed by what I have seen. The commitment to public service and the way in which policing has to pick up and deal with issues that other services are not able to manage should not be underestimated, nor should the scale of the cultural change that has to happen. There is a very strong command and control culture in policing which has served it well. But if we are to be an effective profession, that will have to be balanced with the creation of a culture of inquiry where we think about what we do and we grow the evidence about what works in police forces, not just in universities. I would love to see a day when we have a culture where ideas from front-line officers get listened to, get turned into evaluations and we work with universities to see whether their ideas work as well as the ideas of criminology. That has got to happen and that is the goal.

Chair

Indeed. Mr Marshall, have you spent any money on consultants since you took over?

Alex Marshall

Yes, particularly in the early stages when I had to select and recruit my entire senior management.

Chair

How much have you spent?

Alex Marshall

I can send you the figures, but on consultants I think it was £690,000 in the last financial year.

Chair

Why would we need consultants in an organisation that had so many experienced and clever police officers such as yourself?

Alex Marshall

Because to change and introduce an entirely new organisation from scratch I needed some skills that I did not have in the organisation. As soon as I appointed my team of executives, my directors, I reduced the number of consultants. The change team that was in doing the work with us left and my directors now own that.

Chair

So no more consultants?

Alex Marshall

I look to keep it to an absolute minimum, but there are always skill sets that I might need, and sometimes it is necessary to use consultants.

Mr Winnick

In view of the opening statement, I am wondering, Professor Pearce and Chief Executive Alex Marshall, whether it would be useful on going out of the building, if you tested for yourselves on whether various police officers are aware of the College. As the Chair said, there are so many here, and rightly so, because of the danger, not simply to Members but first and foremost to the public. Have you sought and heard from police colleagues about the College and whether they have heard of it?