Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 16 December 2014
Oral evidence, 16 December 2014.
Witnesses
Tang Chi Tak, Student, Chinese University of Hong Kong, and Hui Sin Tung, Student, University of Hong Kong, gave evidence.
Chair
May I welcome our next two witnesses? They are both students in Hong Kong. Can I start with a formal question? Do you understand that this is a public sitting and that you are on the record? Both Witnesses indicated assent.
Chair
That’s great. Could you start by telling us what your group is about, what you’ve been doing and what your objectives are? We have quite a lot of detailed questions, but could you give us a broad outline?
Hui Sin Tung
Let me start. I am a university student, and I am here to represent Daniel Ma, the initiator of the plan to occupy the British consulate in Hong Kong. Today, I am here to provide evidence on how China has breached the Joint Declaration since the handover of Hong Kong, and I will tell you about the experience of Daniel Ma and the group that has occupied the British consulate in the past two months.
Chair
Does your organisation have a name?
Hui Sin Tung
The group is formally called Occupy British Consulate.
Chair
Does this distinguish you from other Occupy groups?
Hui Sin Tung
Yes.
Chair
Roughly how many people have participated in the protest outside the consulate?
Hui Sin Tung
It started off as a group of 10 students led by Daniel Ma. At the beginning of October, when the umbrella revolution reached gridlock, Daniel and 10 of his classmates started to stay outside the British consulate. They then escalated the action in mid-November because they didn’t receive a proper response from the consulate. The highest number was about 200 people, who stayed overnight outside the consulate.
Sir John Stanley
Welcome. Could you tell us whether those who have been demonstrating peacefully are now in detention as a result of the actions of the Hong Kong police? If so, could you give us any broad indication of the numbers of student protesters, and possibly non-student protesters, who have been demonstrating peacefully and who are now in police custody?
Hui Sin Tung
Sorry. I didn’t understand the question. Can you make it shorter?
Sir John Stanley
Are those who have been protesting peacefully still in the custody of the Hong Kong police today?
Chair
From the witness’s group?
Sir John Stanley
No; can you give us any indication as to whether protesters are still in the custody of the Hong Kong police?
Tang Chi Tak
Over the months, they have arrested over 800 people. We guess that a large amount of them are students who were protesting peacefully.
Sir John Stanley
Thank you. And of those 800, are they all still in custody today or have many of them been released?
Hui Sin Tung
Many of them have been released. The rule is like this: if you have been arrested, you either go to court within 48 hours or you will be released unconditionally, but the police can still place charges after release. Most of them have left the police station.
Sir John Stanley
Thank you. Just one further question. Is it the case that some of the protesters, possibly a small minority, have damaged buildings and have entered buildings?
Hui Sin Tung
In late November, a group of protestors tried to break into the LegCo. They broke the glass wall of the LegCo, but they failed to enter. Some of them have been arrested.
Sir John Stanley
Could you give us your opinion, your view, of those who go beyond protesting peacefully and go further by breaking into or damaging buildings? Do you agree or disagree with that?
Hui Sin Tung
In my opinion, such physical violence is inevitable. In the past 10 years, protest has always been very peaceful. We go to parades, we demonstrate, we shout our slogans, and the Government never give us proper responses. Such escalation of action is inevitable.
Tang Chi Tak
The point of this event is not whether we have broken a wall but whether we are armed to harm anybody. In this event no Government officials or even a single police officer has been harmed by that group of protestors, so it is still acceptable for me.
Mike Gapes
Ms Tung, I think you said that you did not receive a proper response when you tried to communicate with the staff of the British Consulate. What response did you receive when you tried to contact them? Did you get any response at all?
Hui Sin Tung
We did get some response. Caroline Wilson once contacted Daniel Ma, who was the initiator of the operation. She offered to have a private meeting with Daniel, but the thing was that the meeting should be in private. She asked Daniel to promise that, after the meeting, he will never set foot in the Consulate again. Daniel found that unjust and improper, so he refused to have such a single meeting with Caroline.
Mike Gapes
So you have had no meeting with British Consulate staff?
Hui Sin Tung
No formal meeting.
Mike Gapes
What about other communications? Have there been any other communications with them by telephone or in writing?
Hui Sin Tung
There are face-to-face negotiations between them. The Consulate has always tried to drive the group of protestors away, so they have talked with each other face to face.
Mike Gapes
Can I be clear about the nature of your protest? You are directly outside the British Consulate-General’s office but you haven’t gone in. Is that correct?
Hui Sin Tung
Yes, that is correct. They set camp outside the British Consulate, and sometimes they set camp on the grey area outside the British Consulate. That space belongs to the premises of the British Consulate, but sometimes the Consulate staff drive them away and they need to stay on the land that belongs to the Hong Kong Government. When people stay outside the black area, they will be susceptible to violence or arrest by the Hong Kong police, so if they want to go under the protection of the British Consulate, they need to stay on the black area.
Tang Chi Tak
I have something to say about this, too. There have been reports that this movement started in November, but that was when people started to gather there. At the very beginning, Mr Daniel Ma, who was the initiator of this movement and a high school student, went there himself, sometimes with one of his friends who is also a high school student. At the beginning of October we had already experienced the police firing tear gas canisters at 87 completely unarmed protestors. On 3 October, in one of the areas of occupation—Mongkok, in Kowloon—gangsters attacked us with weapons. Some of them even drew knives. They were let go by the police. The police just turned a blind eye to them. They would just arrest us, even if we complained about that. The police would pretend that they were arresting those who used violent means to harm us, but we discovered that the police were just moving the so-called anti-protesters to the street corner, and they would just let them go. Mr Daniel Ma thinks that that would constitute harm to the rule of law. So in that case it would involve the Sino-British Joint Declaration, because in that Declaration our freedom of assembly is guaranteed. So if the Hong Kong Government and the Chinese Government fail to conform to the Declaration, he thinks that the UK, as one of the signing countries, has the responsibility to make sure that everything happens according to the Declaration.
Sandra Osborne
You believe that China has breached the Joint Declaration. What are the specific ways in which you think the Declaration has been breached by China?
Tang Chi Tak
Apart from the experiences of the umbrella revolution?
Sandra Osborne
Yes.
Tang Chi Tak
Yes, I believe that in the Joint Declaration the executive power of the Hong Kong Government is guaranteed, so that the Chinese Government would not be able to interfere with any executive decision made by the Hong Kong Government. I think that many people would agree with me that a certain kind of ethnic cleansing is under way in Hong Kong. I have to emphasise this, so you know about the seriousness of this problem and what is happening. That ethnic cleansing is done, I think, through a rather unreasonable adaptation of Hong Kong’s education policy and immigration policy. I will start with the education policy. Hong Kong people speak Cantonese as their mother language, but the Chinese people speak Mandarin, or Putonghua, so we speak different mother languages. Hong Kong has been practising its mother language education policy, but in 2000 the Curriculum Development Council of Hong Kong made the teaching of the Chinese language using Putonghua a long-term objective. Let me explain how well planned their efforts to erase our mother languages are. In 2014, Putonghua was increasingly used in the classroom as a medium of instruction in subjects other than the Chinese language, including Chinese history and maths. This would threaten the position of Cantonese in Hong Kong. The Hong Kong Education Bureau claimed that the use of Putonghua as a medium of instruction in schools was only on a trial basis. However, non-governmental groups soon discovered that the Bureau had actually gradually introduced Putonghua as the medium of instruction for core subjects, which continuously damaged the position of Cantonese in Hong Kong. That shows how the decision was taken to use the language education policy of Hong Kong to eradicate the Hong Kong people’s mother language. You may be concerned whether that is really related to the interference of China. I am going to describe a critical event that provides evidence.
Chair
Can I just interrupt for a moment? The question asked you to look at the Joint Declaration and say how you think it has been breached. If you could focus your answer on that point it would be helpful.
Tang Chi Tak
Yes. But I am going to say that is the critical point, how it is breached. In 2014, the Education Bureau published an article called “Language learning support”, claiming that Cantonese is an illegal dialect. That claim is clearly ridiculous and derived from the viewpoint of China. After that claim was criticised, the Education Bureau of Hong Kong replaced that article with a new one, and Apple Daily, one of the local newspapers, discovered that when that new article was shown in traditional Chinese some words were erroneous. Hong Kong people write traditional Chinese but the Chinese people write simplified Chinese. That error originated in a translation of simplified Chinese into traditional Chinese, by using a translation function of Microsoft Word. It means that the article by the Education Bureau was first written in simplified Chinese and then translated into traditional Chinese, since not a single local Hong Kong person would write in simplified Chinese and then translate it to traditional. This practice is commonly adopted by those who are used to writing simplified Chinese. It is highly suspected that the education policy would be highly affected by Chinese officials, or perhaps officials from the Liaison office. I believe that does not conform with the spirit of the Joint Declaration, that the Hong Kong Government should have high autonomy.
Hui Sin Tung
I have two points. Apart from the diluting of local culture by the new culture and new educational system, I want to talk about basic human rights in Hong Kong and the mechanism of the election of the Chief Executive. Stipulated in paragraph 3.5 of the Joint Declaration, we Hong Kongers enjoy freedom of the press, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly. In recent years, I have observed oppression on media freedom has increased drastically. For example, in July 2014 one of the most active pro-democracy online news platforms, The House News, closed suddenly. After the closure, one of the owners expressed concern for his personal safety and about political pressure. In addition to that, last year the Hong Kong Government refused to grant a free-to-air TV licence to a candidate called HKTV, which had been very popular with the public. Such refusals came with no satisfactory reason. So there has been a declining number of channels for Hong Kongers to receive information and news. Apart from this, violent assaults against journalists and the media are another concern among people working in the media industry. We mentioned those exact examples in a petition letter so you can refer to them later. The victims are mostly known for their critical news coverage of the Hong Kong and mainland Chinese Governments. Curiously, most of the crimes targeted at the press have remained unresolved under the hands of the Hong Kong Government. Of course, a common citizen like me cannot directly attribute such incidents to the political agenda or policy of the Chinese Government, but we can feel the chill on the media from what we read in newspapers, see on television or browse on the internet. It affects the daily life of Hong Kongers. I still need to say something about the Chief Executive election mechanism. As stipulated in the joint declaration, the Chinese Government have the right to appoint the Chief Executive. However, on 31 August, the standing committee of the National People’s Congress issued a decision which imposes unreasonable restrictions on the proposed suffrage mechanism. The decision stipulates that all Chief Executives must first be pre-elected by a 1,200-member nomination committee, which is very unfair. Because such a committee not only involves less than 7% of Hong Kong’s electorate, its professional-oriented composition lacks accountability to the general public. A common citizen like me cannot ensure that a Chief Executive elected by such a mechanism can protect our well-being or welfare. The decision also stipulates that the maximum number of selected candidates is capped at three. The mechanism effectively gives Beijing the power to filter the choice of candidates before we voters can vote on them. It also implies that the candidates are susceptible to discrimination based on political views. This is flagrant evidence of breach by China.
Mr Roy
Welcome. My colleagues and I are sorry that we did not have the chance to have this meeting in Hong Kong, and that you have had to visit London. You will be aware that the United Kingdom Foreign Office publishes a six-monthly report on events in Hong Kong. Do you think those reports are accurate?
Hui Sin Tung
To be honest, I do not think the report can reflect the political status quo in Hong Kong. I read the report published in July. It said that the human rights and political context in Hong Kong is still stable and satisfactory, but the situation is not like that. Violence happens day by day. I think the report cannot reflect a real picture of Hong Kong because of the people you approach—the people being interviewed by the writer of the report. I know that the writers of the report usually approach legislators from the pro-democracy camp. I think it has something to do with the interests of their parties that they do not tell the whole truth. To generate a real report reflecting the genuine situation in Hong Kong, more people like us should interviewed—people without political affiliation.
Mr Roy
The next report is due in January. Would you be so kind as to read the report and let this Committee know your views on the report when it is published early in the new year? [Interruption.]
Chair
We’ll explain it to you afterwards.
Hui Sin Tung
Okay. It is too complicated for me, sorry.
Ann Clwyd
Can you tell us what you think of the UK Government’s response to events in Hong Kong since the Umbrella Movement started in September? Are you happy with their response, or not happy?
Hui Sin Tung
I think the response so far is satisfactory and your Committee has decided to visit Hong Kong. Unfortunately, your visit was denied but we have been able to take our appeal to Committee level here. But whether it is satisfactory also depends on the action you are going to take, which concerns our future negotiation or future contact.
Tang Chi Tak
For me, I am not happy with UK Government’s response, because they have allowed the continued export of tear gas canisters for the reason that they think they cannot prove that the canisters used in Hong Kong are made by the UK, but I believe that the UK Government have not fulfilled their responsibility to conduct the report, because we can certainly provide evidence to the UK that the canisters used are made by the UK. They have not approached us, for example, for any photos or videos that would show evidence supporting that the canisters are made by UK.
Mr Baron
We are talking a lot about the Joint Declaration going forward, but can I just ask you both: are you happy with how robust the British Government have been in reaction to events in Hong Kong so far? There are some who would criticise the fact that we haven’t been very robust; some human rights groups have actually made that point. What is your view?
Hui Sin Tung
I think the response takes two levels. As we can show up on this Committee, for this part I am happy with that. But for the performance or the response by the British Consulate, it is very disappointing, because, as I have mentioned, we and a group of people have stayed outside the British Consulate for two months, under strong rain and under violence, and they actually need humanitarian protection from the Consulate. As we mentioned, Hong Kong people and Hong Kong protesters are in real danger. I have attached some of the videos about police brutality in the e-mail to the Committee and you can refer to it later. So, under such urgency and such a dangerous situation, the response and the assistance by the Consulate is very disappointing.
Andrew Rosindell
First, thank you for coming today; we really appreciate you visiting us. And thank you for everything you are doing in Hong Kong. But what I would like to know particularly is this: what would you like Britain to do? What can we do as a country—as a signatory of that Declaration, if it’s not being adhered to—and as Members of Parliament, and the British Government, to help you in your struggle for democracy?
Hui Sin Tung
Parliament should take a more active role. We would like Parliament to step up as well on supervising the UK Government in relation to her obligations on the implementation and enforcement of the Joint Declaration. Also, we would like Parliament to conduct active investigations on the potential breaches of the Chinese Government of the Joint Declaration, and we want the result of such investigations to be published. Besides, we would like Parliament to pass a motion to denounce the PRC Government’s breach of the Joint Declaration and to support the introduction of genuine universal suffrage in Hong Kong in accordance with the Declaration.
Tang Chi Tak
I would like to talk about this as well. We saw from the news that the Foreign Affairs Committee was prevented from entering Hong Kong to conduct an investigation. I saw that Sir Richard said that he heard from Chinese officials that the Joint Declaration was invalid after the handover. We would like to know whether the UK Government would require the Chinese Government to make a response to that claim made by the Chinese official. If China made a response and admitted that they think that the handover ended the Joint Declaration, would the UK re-exercise the Nanking treaty and Peking treaty? As far as I know, the treaties are still valid.
Mike Gapes
Can I ask you about the wider aspects of the Umbrella Movement? You represent a particular group. Are your views about the UK Government and the things that you have just said to us representative of all those in the movement, or is the movement very diverse? If so, could you give us some idea about the nature of the movement as a whole?
Hui Sin Tung
I must say that we cannot represent all the participants in the umbrella revolution. As the name suggests, the umbrella revolution is indeed an umbrella term. It covers a wide array of political appeal. However, the main objective of the umbrella revolution is to pursue a real democratic system in Hong Kong. We request two mechanisms for genuine universal suffrage in Hong Kong. The first is the mechanism to elect the Executive committee. We want to do away with the current nomination system which focuses on a small group of people’s interests. The other mechanism has to do with the Legislative Council. There is a functional constituency in the Legislative Council, and some people in Hong Kong have two votes, while the majority of people have only one vote. That is obviously unfair. Because of the malfunctioning of the Legislative Council and the presence of the functional constituency, some policies that are not beneficial to most people in Hong Kong still get passed in the Legislative Council. Those are the main two requirements.
Tang Chi Tak
I have to talk about the problem of representation. In the past, Hong Kong’s protests or social movements have usually been led by the pan-democrats so they can claim that they represent the group of protesters. What is happening in Hong Kong right now with the Umbrella Movement is unprecedented, because we realise that the traditional leaders of social movements may have been compromised for various reasons, such as their electoral interests—they want to fight for the votes of some groups—or for any other reasons. They may have been compromised for China, because they have entered a covert meeting with the Liaison Office in 2010. We have gradually lost trust in traditional leaders who claim that they are pro-Democrat. This time, we do not need anybody to lead us and represent us, so we would just represent ourselves or at least represent a group of people, like this time, because a group of them sponsored us for this trip. We do not represent other protesters of the umbrella revolution, and they would be pleased if they could come here as well, I think.
Mike Gapes
Can I be clear about your specific requests or demands on what the UK Government and our Parliament should do? Is it fair to say that those are specific proposals that have come from your group and that they do not necessarily reflect the wider consensus that exists among the whole of the umbrella group?
Hui Sin Tung
Yes, that is fair.
Mr Roy
What would be the effect in Hong Kong if the United Kingdom Government was more outspoken in support of democratic reform? Would it help or hinder if the UK Government publicly supported more democratic reform?
Hui Sin Tung
I think it would definitely help, because currently the umbrella revolution has reached a gridlock. The massive occupied area has been cleared in the past two weeks so no spaces are being occupied now. But then people lost their direction and they started to take on various forms of civil disobedience. For example, they went out on the streets to increase the calls for the police to implement their work. But if the UK Government is willing to speak for us or to issue some statements, that would definitely encourage the Hong Kong people to continue our democratic movement. Also, if the British Consulate is willing to provide protection to people outside, such a system is tangible.
Tang Chi Tak
We favour any help from the UK through every possible means.
Chair
In the petition that you sent to us, at the end, when talking about the petitions, you set out four things that you think that the UK should be doing. In the third one, which I think is the most critical, you request the UK Government to “require” the Chinese Government to allow Hong Kong universal suffrage of the chief executive. What do you mean by require? We have no obvious levers at our disposal, so we have no obvious way of making the Chinese do that. How do you think that Britain can make China allow universal suffrage?
Hui Sin Tung
To begin with, we have to say that we are not experts in international relations, but I think that the UK Government can exert some diplomatic pressure on the Chinese Government. We do not have tangible plans to suggest to the UK Government. I look forward to future negotiation or discussion with the Committee, or we could even take it to a parliamentary level.
Chair
What do you mean by diplomatic pressure?
Hui Sin Tung
Issuing a statement or clarifying the UK’s stance on such a matter as a first step. I am not an expert in international relations, but surely there is some conflict of interests or economic relationship between countries, so I am not sure—
Chair
Should we use the economic relationship to force China to allow universal suffrage?
Hui Sin Tung
This is not a suggestion, because, as I have said, I am not an expert in international relations. This requires further negotiation.
Tang Chi Tak
I think it is not because we want universal suffrage that the UK needs to use economic means to force China to do that. It is because China has violated the Joint Declaration and the UK is one of the signing countries. So, in order to restore the balance or to make them act according to the international treaty, the UK may adopt any means that you think are appropriate.
Chair
Thank you very much indeed. That was a very interesting session for us. I hope that you were comfortable with it. I wish you well for the rest of your stay here in the UK. Thank you for coming along today. Oral evidence: The UK’s relations with Hong Kong: 30 years after the Joint Declaration, HC 649 21