Oral evidence: Jobs and Livelihoods, HC 685Wednesday 19 November 2014
Oral evidence, 19 November 2014.
Witnesses
Professor Wilmot James MP, Member of Parliament (South Africa), Hon. Leticia Nyerere, Member of Parliament (Tanzania), and Waresat Hussain Belal MP, Member of Parliament (Bangladesh), gave evidence.
Chair
Good morning. We have a slight change of panel. I understand that Doris Dlakude is unwell; I am sorry to hear that. She has been replaced by Professor Wilmot Godfrey James. Other than that, we have the same panel. Welcome. We are particularly looking forward to discussing opportunities for women with you. That change has slightly unbalanced the gender balance on the panel, but I am sure the focus on women’s issues will be undiluted. Can you just formally introduce yourselves for the record?
Waresat Hussain Belal
I am Waresat Hussain Belal, an MP from Bangladesh.
Leticia Nyerere
I am Leticia Nyerere. I am a Member of the Parliament of Tanzania.
Professor James
I am Wilmot James. I am a Member of Parliament from South Africa, and I am Chairman of the official opposition, the Democratic Alliance.
Chair
Thank you very much. As I say, this is looking at particular opportunities for women. Just as a little point, in the UK, there are still issues about equal pay, equal opportunities, equal rights to promotion and glass ceilings. Once little but not unimportant campaign that the present Government has run is getting women on the board. The top 100 companies quoted on the Stock Exchange have at least one woman on the board. That has been done not by legislation but by active campaigning and encouragement. What we are really interested in is seeing what other barriers there are to employment and livelihood opportunities for women and what you think can be done to remove these. Feel free to talk about the role of parliamentarians, the role of donors, the role of Governments in achieving that. If you have good examples of how it works or bad examples of what not to do, feel free to share those with us. Shall we go to ladies first?
Leticia Nyerere
There are so many barriers in job creation for women. I am talking about the experience in Tanzania where this is happening. There have been all these programmes provided by the Government, donors and NGOs, but still there are many other barriers that hinder a woman from being employed or from having a real job. When I talk about a real job, I mean a job that comes through a profession, a job that gives you decent pay, but, again, it is not easy to achieve these goals for women, especially when we have more women in rural areas. We have been having programmes through the Parliament whereby we learn how to empower women in villages. These programmes have been working successfully and I will insist that we continue having these programmes because we have direct contact with our women in the rural areas. That is where the large population is, so, if we want to bring change in our countries, we need to focus on where the majority of the people are, where the majority of women are: in the rural areas. We have to focus on the areas that have more people, which is agriculture. Job creation for women has to start from the villages where the majority of women are. We are talking about other jobs in this series; we are looking for clerical jobs or any other professional jobs, but, in the villages, they do not know anything about these kinds of job. What they know is what they live with every day: agriculture. What we need to do is to empower them so they will be able to engage themselves in agricultural processes, other than thinking about jobs that pay a decent salary. Apart from that, there are other challenges that are not addressed. Women go through, for example, domestic violence. That can also hinder their ability to do anything. They go through other cultural issues and, surprisingly, the majority of women agree with those kinds of cultural issues. There are tribes where they believe that, if you love a woman, you must beat her up; people believe in that and they respect that. These are the issues that the Government fails to address openly, even to donors and NGOs when they come to try and empower and help women. Nobody wants to talk about it.
Chair
It is an issue that certainly this Committee and the UK Government have taken a very strong line on. It is difficult, because we are challenging other people’s cultures, but nevertheless it is something we have been focused on.
Leticia Nyerere
It is that notion of feeling bad about challenging somebody’s culture and, because the culture is like that, people come without knowing what needs to be done. Donors come thinking that they need to help these women get access to loans from the banks, but that is not the main issue; that is not the priority. Even in my constituency, that is not a priority. The priority is health to my women and independence to my women. Being free from violence is priority number one. Next is to empower them economically. That is what I think.
Chair
Thank you very much; you have made that very clear. I wonder, on the basic question of opportunities, clearly, you have a garment industry employing women, for example, and we will ask more questions about that, and obviously you have more industry and so forth in South Africa. However, having heard what Leticia Nyerere has said, have you got any particular comment or development on that argument?
Waresat Hussain Belal
First of all, Bangladesh is a riverine country and it is an agricultural country. Our main resources come from agriculture and so we have to give emphasis to agriculture. In Bangladesh now, many garments factories are coming up and womenfolk are working in the garments sector. The most positive thing is that women do a better job than men; they do better, so garment factory owners prefer to employ women workers. This is the scenario in Bangladesh. There are many women workers coming from the villages, and they are working in not only garments but textiles and other sectors as well. Our Government is also placing emphasis on the IT sector. We have gone up to village level. We are also bringing men and women and boys and girls into our capital, giving them training and sending them back to the villages. For example, in the health sector, in each upazila, as we call them, there are healthcare facilities and hospitals. In each hospital, we have telemedicine, teleconferencing, for people and womenfolk who cannot come to the capital. Getting an appointment with a doctor or professor takes three to six months, but, with this thing, she can do it in five minutes. These are the things our Government is doing. There are also many obstacles we are facing, but we are moving. The main thing is that we respect women in our culture. Suppose I am on a bus or a train, if a woman is standing, I cannot sit there. I have to get up and give her the seat. These are the cultures, but I will tell you later on what the major problem we are going to face and are still facing is, and it should be a concern for everyone.
Chair
We will come back to that. Professor James?
Professor James
I wanted to say that South Africa has good anti‑discrimination legislation in terms of its overall architecture. It is not always exercised to the maximum degree, but there is certainly nothing wrong with the legislation that we have. We have affirmative action policies that are applied unevenly, and they are sometimes applied in a way that relies on quotas, which we think is entirely inappropriate. However, we do have affirmative action policies and black empowerment programmes that are specifically targeted towards black women. In terms of what Government has as instruments, we think we have a reasonable environment that protects women against discrimination and advances them in particular sectors. In that context, we are looking at 1% growth in GDP and there is no job growth whatsoever; in fact, jobs losses are occurring as a result of onerous labour legislation that increases the costs for hiring of employees on the part of business. The real prospects for women in our country are partly, ironically, the consequence of the failure in public services and increasing reliance on a rapidly growing black middle class turning towards privately provided services in policing, for example. More is spent on private policing presently in South Africa than on public policing, and, in fact, some police stations rely on private security to protect them. People are turning towards sending their children to low‑fee private schooling in order to get a good education, and they are also turning towards private healthcare. That is the growth area and it is quite dynamic, because it principally creates opportunities for black South Africans in a rapidly enlarging middle class. To give you an idea of the figures involved here, in 1994, there were 1.8 million black South Africans in the middle‑class category; today, it is 6 million. The number of medium‑earning black South Africans has increased from 120,000 to 1.8 million. That is where the dynamism is in our country, and that is where the growth is. Most of the employment at a public sector level that involves women is not bad. It could be a lot better, but in terms of the Western Cape Government, for example, the Premier of the province is a female; the Mayor of the City of Cape Town is a female. In the manner of appointments, we are not bad in terms of opportunities for women in public administration. When it comes to the professions, there is a serious mismatch between the number of graduates coming out of the professional degree programmes at universities and the take‑up in the private sector. There is a self‑selection that takes place in terms of professional training for women, but more medical doctors are female in South Africa. In the soft sciences, you have more women in biology but fewer women in physics and so forth. In that part of it, we are not doing badly. We could do better. We need more engineers, for example, in the country and we need more female engineers as well. That is not bad, but the real action, colleagues, is in the private sector: opportunities that women have in starting small businesses, running small businesses and medium‑sized enterprises and moving them out of the informal sector into the formal sector. In this case, what matters is access to credit, funding and support; tax relief in the first three years so that they can get the cash flow straight—essentially, support services and a beneficial tax environment to make it possible for them to grow their businesses and sustain them. As you know, the rate of failure in small businesses is extraordinary and the first three years matter. In South Africa, most entrepreneurs in the small business sector and the informal sector are women, black women; that is where the energy is. I will make no other comments about what the men are up to, but just say that that is where the energy is. That is where the Government needs to provide support in terms of making it easy, in terms of the taxation architecture and also providing enough financial and other kinds of administrative support to a population that is not that well‑educated. That is where the action lies, and there is potential there for growth. I am the Shadow Minister for Health in South Africa. One comment on the democratic and the health statistics when it comes to women: they are not great at all, especially maternity rates. Just focusing on the issue you are concerned about, livelihoods and jobs and women, I believe the growth in the economy in South Africa lies in the small and medium‑sized business sector, and the role of women, particularly black women, is crucial. We need to target and follow that action, rather than think we can steer progress for women through applying affirmative action, for example.
Fiona Bruce
Thank you very much for that evidence. In fact, my question is about how we can help women move from the informal sector to the formal sector. You have largely answered it from your country’s perspective, so, if I may, I will address my question to your two colleagues on the panel. My question is: how can we help women, and how do women in your country, move from the informal employment that they have into the formal sector, for example through the processing and garment industries? I understand what you have said, Leticia—and, by the way, I am looking forward to visiting your country next week when our Committee goes there—about most women being employed in agriculture. However, there is obviously some challenge to move some of them out of the informal agricultural sector into particularly the private formal sector. Can you talk about this?
Leticia Nyerere
Thank you very much for the question. As we know, the majority of women right now are involved in the informal sectors, whereby they are able to run small businesses by themselves. Again, if we moved them from the informal to the formal sector, it would then be easier to find out what they are doing, how they are doing it, what they require to improve their businesses. Of course, we need to give them skills in order for them to move from this informal sector into the formal sector. We have seen some women moving from the informal to the formal sector, and they have been doing well. The focus should be on how to give them skills for that and also how to help them have access to loans from the banks. Again, we have to remember we are talking about people in the villages who make up the majority of women. We do not have banks in the villages, unless we organise for some kind of financial institution that would be willing to support them financially. It is possible. I have seen a set of women who have been successful after moving from the informal sector to the formal sector; they acquired loans. To be specific, they were producing soap. I also participated in one project, where I had to teach women how to make Vaseline, regular Vaseline, and they enjoyed it. Women enjoy learning new skills. They enjoyed it; they have been making it for a living; they sell it and they use it. It is very important that we focus on bringing them to the formal sectors.
Fiona Bruce
Mr Belal?
Waresat Hussain Belal
In our country, and especially in my constituency, we are creating groups of women whom train how to make caps. They are making them and we are exporting them. Where our Government has taken decisions, parliamentarians in our Parliament sometimes say that, since our Prime Minister is a lady, she is placing more emphasis on women. Our Government is trying to create women entrepreneurs with the minimum amount of bank interest. For them, bank interest is much lower, but for others like me bank interest is very high: 18%; they are getting it at 5% to 7%. In the rural areas, if they produce certain crops that we import a lot—say onions or potatoes—they can get bank loans with interest of only 2%. Another thing our Government has done is that every citizen has a bank account with around 10 taka in our currency, around one penny here, and through that they have their bank account. We have created a safety net mainly for women. They get benefits. When a lady reaches age 65, she will get remuneration from the Government. When a lady gives birth to a child, she will get remuneration for three or four months. These are the things. We mostly try to involve women in sectors like food‑for‑work, and women in rural areas are working in that sector. As I said earlier, we are also bringing them into the capital and training them in the IT sector. We are taking the model from India of outsourcing from developing countries, if they can do the job. The problem I was going to tell you about is with terrorism. Terrorism has become a fundamental problem in Bangladesh and neighbouring countries—also in Pakistan, as my friend will agree. They have enough money, and they are injecting this money everywhere, mainly to women. They are saying that, “If you do like this, you will go to heaven”; “You have to wear a hijab and everything”. These are problems that are hindering these programmes. We think these programmes can put women in a much better position. They can even supersede men; they can supersede us because the entrepreneurs in our private sector are very interested in women. In Parliament, we are bringing in NGOs, discussing with them how they can work and how we can help them, overcoming our personal differences, and these are the ways. However, I tell you again that terrorism is really creating problems for us.
Professor James
If I may add to that, it is of the greatest importance to get the incentive architecture to move people from the informal sector right, because, living in the informal sector, you do not pay any taxes, so the incentive to move has to be compelling. What is that incentive? The incentive has to be that you save people from all that that entails. You have a one‑stop shop where they register for tax, unemployment insurance, labour and so on. It has to be very easy for people to do that. They would need to have very few tax obligations in the first two years, so you need to get that right. They need support in terms of cash flow over a cycle. Then, the greatest benefit is that they can access Government programmes. The most important one is training. You can have a very simple voucher system, so an entrepreneur gets a voucher and trades it and gets the kind of training they actually need, as opposed to what a bureaucrat thinks they need.
Fiona Bruce
Thank you very much. I did not want to exclude you; you had already given us so much, but that is even more helpful.
Pauline Latham
How can we ensure that jobs, for example in the garment industry, are not exploitative of women? How can we, for instance, make sure that they can join trade unions? How can we make sure that they get fair pay? How do we make sure that their human rights are not abused?
Leticia Nyerere
As ladies and leaders, it is our responsibility to make sure that Governments do the right things for women. We really have to make sure that women’s jobs are protected. First of all, we have to make sure that many women have decision‑making positions, in order for them to influence their fellow women. We need more women in these jobs, let it be a governing job, an appointed job or an elected job. We need more women. We have to understand that; that is very crucial. Once we have more women who can make decisions, who can influence other women, they will be able to achieve something. Also, the Government has to understand they have to be fair in job selection; they have to make sure that women participate equally with men. I am glad that we are working on a constitution whereby there will be a 50:50 ratio in all jobs, starting with Members of Parliament; it has to be 50:50. That is very encouraging for us women, because that will give us an opportunity to reach as many women as possible and to protect as many jobs as possible for women.
Pauline Latham
So long as those women are not always at the bottom half and the men at the top half, but it is 50:50 all the way up.
Leticia Nyerere
If you have a male President, the Vice-President has to be a woman.
Pauline Latham
You have equal numbers of Ministers and things.
Leticia Nyerere
Yes. That is how it is going to be, and that is very good for the implementation of all that we are talking about.
Pauline Latham
But also management of companies—it should be not only workers, but management as well.
Leticia Nyerere
Yes, even the management in the company. If you have the CEO, the vice has to be a female, or vice versa. That is how it has to be.
Waresat Hussain Belal
So far, in management in our country, the women are reaching that position through their skill. As I said previously, women work more and their intellect is greater. If we can give them a chance, they will come up. We are seeing it; they are coming up.
Fiona O’Donnell
Can I just ask a quick question, Mr Belal—sorry, I am going to have to leave to be in the Chamber—about the most marginalised women in your country, the dalit? What are doing to ensure that they also benefit from greater opportunities for women?
Waresat Hussain Belal
Excuse me?
Fiona O’Donnell
For the most marginalised women—the untouchables, the dalit women in your country—what are you doing to ensure they are not left behind? Sorry, I was not clear.
Waresat Hussain Belal
I see. The untouchable women are mainly in the rural areas, and they are coming mainly to the industrial sector. Why? Because most of industry is privately owned, and private owners like women, and so they are coming up through industry. The Government is also encouraging that. In Parliament, we bring all the entrepreneurs, garment owners, industry owners, textiles owners, to talk about the problems they are facing, and we try to resolve these problems. That is the way that women will break through.
Professor James
I wanted to respond to your initial question about the garment workers. South Africa does not have a garment industry left; Chinese imports just destroyed it. What there is is a fashion industry and certainly a design industry around that fashion industry. Of course, we have a bill of rights and a constitution that guarantee the protection of women against exploitation and the right to join trade unions as part of the general labour legislation, but there is not a garment industry left. Most of the women are in other sectors. I can give you a long version of that, but it is principally in financial services; it is sitting in tourism and a few others. We do not have a powerful manufacturing sector, and we do not have a lot of women in the agricultural sector except in fruits and the harvesting of fruit. What has happened to the garment industry in Southern Africa, though, is that manufacture has been exported to Lesotho, where the same protections do not exist. In fact, you have massive sweatshops sitting in Lesotho and elsewhere.
Pauline Latham
In South Africa, do women reach the top? Are they able to get to the top management positions or are they generally lower down?
Professor James
They do get to the top. The CEOs of some major companies, Anglo American for example, are female. That does not mean there are not issues around that. It is possible, but one has to be vigilant that barriers are removed where they exist, which requires constant monitoring and so forth. I did want to say I do not agree with having quotas. I do not think quotas are the answer to the question of getting a gender balance or a racial balance right. What is required is adequate and proper training and education on the basis of interest in that particular profession, so you have to invest in education all the way down the line and make sure that there are fair employment practices. I do not approve of quotas.
Pauline Latham
Do you not think it is a good idea to do that to start things off, so then people get used to women being in positions of power or in certain industries? Therefore, once you have equality, you do not need to continue with the quota system, but it gives it a boost to start with.
Professor James
The problem with the quota system is that it is mechanical and it allows people to tick boxes and mark that everything is fine when it is not fine. It is very important for institutions to set targets. Presently, for example, there is an 80:20 male‑to‑female distribution, and to get to 60:40 in a period of three years is achievable. You get the companies and institutions to set the targets, and they then have to invest the right time and resources in order to get there. I think that is a much better approach. The key thing here is that any society interested in parity of that kind has to invest in the education of the people who are marginalised. We have to do it systematically and it has to be monitored.
Leticia Nyerere
I would like to comment on reaching the top. Actually, it is women’s responsibility. It is our obligation to decide whether or not we want to reach the top, because no man is going to offer you their position and say, “Hey, here, get my position”. That will never happen, so we have to demand those top positions if we need them, and it is our responsibility and not anybody else’s. Maybe the Government also has to do a follow‑up on that, but it is we women who are obliged to ask for what we want—actually, to demand what we want.
Chair
And I have no doubt you well. I just wanted to allow a few minutes for a wider Q&A. First of all, can I say thank you very much to this last panel because I think that was an extremely interesting exchange? Oral evidence: Jobs and Livelihoods, HC 685 6