Oral evidence: Police Information Notices, HC 901Tuesday 13 January 2015
Oral evidence, 13 January 2015.
Witnesses
Katy Bourne, Police and Crime Commissioner for Sussex, and Kevin Hurley, Police and Crime Commissioner for Surrey, gave evidence.
Chair
Commissioners Bourne and Hurley, thank you very much for coming in. We will be quick and precise because I know, Commissioner Bourne, you are between Keith Bristow and the Prime Minister in your meetings. We would not want to deprive the Prime Minister of your presence at No. 10, so we will speed along. Mr Hurley, I am not sure whether you have to see anyone as distinguished as the Prime Minister but we will treat you quickly and efficiently nevertheless.
Kevin Hurley
I have been here before you, Chairman, talking about Ghurkha rights issues, and you are pretty distinguished.
Chair
Excellent. We have other witnesses, but we will be very brief and precise. Before we all degenerate into laughter, let me ask you specifically about PIN notices, Kevin Hurley. I am told this matter was raised recently. To be frank, I did not know of the existence of PIN notices, so I am glad that it has been raised in Parliament and elsewhere. Does this issue cross your desk? Do people ring up the commissioners and have they said to you—not individual people but generally—“I have been served with a PIN notice. What on earth is this? I have a complaint about the fact this is done”? Did you know of their existence before?
Kevin Hurley
I knew of their existence before, but that is partly because I was a police officer before. I am aware of that background, but what I can say in terms of my office is that in the past year we have had three letters expressing concern about PIN notices in Surrey. We had 251 served in Surrey in the last year, on a population of 1.25 million, of which 10 resulted in complaints.
Chair
If you compare it to Sussex—we have just heard the figures, although of course we are not holding Commissioner Bourne responsible for these figures because she is the commissioner, not the instituter of PIN notices—it is quite a big figure for your area, Commissioner Bourne. Are you surprised? Perhaps you did not know the comparisons before, but now that you know them, are you surprised by the numbers of notices that have been issued, in comparison to Surrey, for example, which has a similar population?
Katy Bourne
I would be interested to see what the national review is going to throw up. Off the back of the internal review that was done in Sussex, I spoke with the chief executive of the College of Policing back in April and asked if he would be prepared to do a national review because I felt it was that important. I think the numbers will vary up and down the country, but for me it is not just about the numbers of the PINs; it is more about what the outcome is from them. I do not pretend to understand all this because I am not a serving police officer but, from my understanding of it, it is a very complex area. While you can just look at the volume—the numbers—what I think is important is to look at the outcomes from them. How many people who have had PINs have then gone on to have continued harassment? Certainly something that has come out of Sussex in the last two months—since 1 November, when the new rules and policy around the use of PINs was put in force off the back of the internal review—is that they have looked at this. There were a couple of hundred that were looked at from 1 November to last week and, of those, I think all of them saw no continuance of issues of harassment following them. That is important from the victim’s point of view. I do not want everybody to think, “Oh, it is the number that is a bad thing to look at.” For me, it is the outcome from it.
Chair
It is the outcome. We understand that. Have you had a similar number of complaints as Mr Hurley has had?
Katy Bourne
Not quantity-wise. We have not had a huge quantity into my office, but obviously the few that I have had have been fairly significant, and one in particular instigated this internal review and then I approached the College of Policing to ask it to do a national review.
Chair
I think you did the right thing and we are most grateful for that. Because it has been raised in the way in which it has, do you think commissioners are now more aware of the existence of these? Obviously you knew about them, Commissioner Hurley, because you were a serving police officer, but are those who were not serving police officers more aware of it now and, therefore, would they question it more? Neither of you would be informed if a PIN notice was being served; you would be astonished if you were. Have you ever been informed of one being served?
Kevin Hurley
Chairman, I think it is good that this has been raised like this and that it is now going to go up the agenda because I suspect many of my police and crime commissioner colleagues would be unaware of it and, in fact, many chief officers and even more junior senior officers will not necessary be aware of the statistical anomalies or some of the issues that have been raised around it. I think it is quite right that this has come right up the agenda because there is an issue here about public confidence and the way in which the police are viewed by victims and, indeed, the alleged perpetrators. Your own parliamentary work shows that most people are pretty dissatisfied with PIN notices from a point of view of being the victim.
Chair
Commissioner Bourne, you would not be informed before one is served, would you?
Katy Bourne
No, that would not be standard policy at all. No.
Chair
As a result of this you have taken interest, clearly, because you have written to this Committee.
Katy Bourne
A very active interest, particularly from the scrutiny point of view. Since this review took place in Sussex on 1 November a new policy was written. There were clear recommendations from the internal review and I am following those quite closely to make sure they are implemented. Every month the local policing board meets. It is the top table for neighbourhood policing in Sussex, if you like, and that is chaired by an assistant chief constable. Around the board you have all the key players and they look at how these recommendations are being implemented. A senior member of my team attends that board as well, so I keep a good oversight on it.
Chair
Is your advice to your new chief constable, “This has been an issue that has taken us into the public domain. We like to be known for many things in Sussex, but not necessarily this. Please take an interest, chief constable, in what is going on”?
Katy Bourne
In fairness to him, I did not need to ask him.
Chair
Sorry, you need to tell us who he is.
Katy Bourne
He is Chief Constable Giles York. He was my appointment in June last year. He was already the serving deputy chief constable, so he was aware of the case as it progressed.
Chair
Commissioner Hurley, presumably you said to your chief constable, “I am interested in this. Are you aware?”
Kevin Hurley
In fact, Chairman, I am pleased to say—I have circulated this to you—that Surrey police have already picked up on this and sent out a training pack out that is presented to all officers. One thing that I am going to explore at the moment is national ACPO guidance saying it should be done in an online training package. Neighbourhood disputes and relationship disputes are a complex area, and I think dealing with them requires a subtle, emotionally intelligent approach. I think police officers are best served if they get engagement training through which they start to discuss the issues, rather than just learning about it online.
Chair
Indeed, very helpful.
Tim Loughton
Commissioner Bourne, the review that Sussex did has obviously been exceedingly helpful. Is your new guidance on the website, because I could not find it?
Katy Bourne
It should be. As far as I was told it is up there on the Sussex police website, but I will make sure it is more easily seen.
Tim Loughton
If it is, can you make sure that you can find it, because I could not?
Katy Bourne
It is on the intranet, definitely, but we can send you a copy. I am quite happy to do that.
Tim Loughton
Having contributed to the review, I have not seen the final recommendations—well, I saw the recommendations, but not how this has changed. For example, is there now an automatic requirement that the alleged perpetrator must be told about an investigation going on before it can be decided a PIN notice can be served, let alone served?
Katy Bourne
Yes, to my understanding. That was always in the ACPO guidance anyway.
Tim Loughton
It wasn’t.
Katy Bourne
Certainly in the policy for Sussex it was.
Tim Loughton
It was not clear that it should have been done all the time.
Katy Bourne
Exactly, and one of the recommendations that came out of it was that it is done face to face and only done by recorded delivery under exceptional circumstances.
Tim Loughton
Also an appeal mechanism now, formally.
Katy Bourne
Sorry?
Tim Loughton
Also that there should be some proper appeal mechanism, whereas at the moment there is no appeal, only a complaint.
Katy Bourne
I am not aware of that, but I will find out and inform the Committee. Certainly there is an oversight that goes on every month through the local policing board with all the PINs.
Tim Loughton
Those were recommendations from the review, which the college may now make a national review.
Katy Bourne
Yes.
Tim Loughton
You quite rightly said the biggest consideration is obviously outcomes, but the variation in numbers is huge. We have had four forces here today, and it is the first time I have had those figures ranging from 251 in Surrey with 1.25 million, to 1,520 in Sussex and 2,900 in Thames Valley. Why do you think there is such a big divergence in numbers regardless of whatever outcomes they may produce?
Katy Bourne
I have asked the same questions. One of the areas was around double-keying. For example, if, as a perpetrator of a crime, Katy Bourne gets issued with a PIN, if I have an alias of Kate Bourne, that would also get flagged up as having a PIN. Therefore, on the computer system, it will come up twice, even though it was only one person. I know that has been an issue around the numbers, and certainly since 1 November, when they looked through the 200 or so, there were still some of those that were double-keyed. Sussex police put in a new computer system back in March/April last year and I think, in the movement over from the paper system they had before to the new Niche system, it was not very clear how markers were going to go on to people’s records to show that they had a PIN. There was a lot of confusion around that, so I do not think that helps.
Tim Loughton
That is quite right. Can double-keying apply to other statutory offences, let alone non-statutory ones?
Katy Bourne
The great thing with this is that it has shown that there were some clear anomalies in the system. Sussex police is not the only force that uses the Niche system. There are 16 or 17 others across the country that do, so some of the learning that has come out of this will be taken forward by the group that oversees it—the Minerva programme group—and it will apply a lot of the learning from this.
Tim Loughton
This may be the tip of the iceberg in terms of recording figures for other non-PIN manageable problems?
Katy Bourne
This is probably straying a bit out of my expertise area here, but I hope not.
Tim Loughton
Perhaps Mr Hurley can also comment as to how Surrey may be doing with this. Are you seeing, if you have looked into it, a greater propensity to use PINs for social media-type episodes—stalking, harassment or whatever—and are you, therefore, both in Surrey’s case and Sussex’s case, looking specifically at how you apply PINs for social media, which is a minefield, as we know?
Kevin Hurley
A significant number of PINs that were issued in the last year were in fact for social media-related activity. In terms of our Surrey police applying a specific approach to that, I am not aware of that. I have circulated to you the latest training package that now goes out to Surrey police officers in relation to the concerns we have about that, but you make an interesting point, and it may be something we need to look at in slightly more detail. As I said before, many of these cases are nuanced and difficult to manage, and I think that social media adds a further dimension to that.
Chair
Thank you, that is very helpful. We need to press on, colleagues.
Dr Huppert
Can I just pick up where we are with the College of Policing and its review? How is that feeding into everything you have been talking about so far? Have you had guidance from it particularly?
Kevin Hurley
The latest guidance from the College of Policing relates to 22 January last year and what effectively it does is to pick up on its original guidance that came out on—
Dr Huppert
Was that not before the review it has been doing? Have you had anything since then?
Kevin Hurley
No, we have not. I am just putting it in perspective. The last thing it issued on this was this particular document, which I can leave for the Committee anyway, on 22 January, and that picks up on the amendments of the 2002 Act, from the Protection of Freedom Act, where sections 2A and 4A were brought in, but there is no further guidance from that.
Dr Huppert
Have you been in touch with it to try to seek guidance and to explore what it might be able to do? It is supposed to be in a role to be able to provide some of this, and if it is not providing that to you—
Kevin Hurley
I think the reality of it is that the College of Policing is trying to produce doctrinal guidance on such a massive spread of activity. It is effectively led by Assistant Chief Constable Garry Shewan, who was here earlier. He would be the person to give you the best position statement of exactly where they are on it now.
Dr Huppert
More generally with the College of Policing and other issues, you must deal with them quite regularly. Do you find they are able to give information, Commissioner Bourne?
Katy Bourne
Well, I sit on the board of the College of Policing, so I pretty much can get the information I require as and when but, as I understand it through forces, yes, the information is there if they want it. The guidance around PINs is still ongoing. Nothing is determined yet, which is why forces would not have an up-to-date policy as yet.
Dr Huppert
Since you are on the board, do you know when there might be?
Katy Bourne
No. You heard from the horse’s mouth earlier: sometime this year, I think. I will try and influence as much as I can in that respect, but I am delighted that it is doing a national review on this. It is a very important area because it is so complex and, as I said earlier, I would caution the Committee not to get too worried about the volume of numbers, but try to look at the outcomes. I am not sure if forces can record that at the moment, but it would be something that would be good to know from the victim’s point of view.
Chair
Thank you, Commissioner Bourne. We are always willing to accept cautions in our work.
Katy Bourne
In the nicest sense of the word, Chairman.
Chair
Of course, in the very nicest sense. I am keen to make sure Commissioner Bourne gets off to her next appointment, as I promised her chief of staff. Commissioner Hurley, in 30 seconds, is the Certificate of Policing going all right as far as Surrey is concerned? You are a serving officer. Should we change it?
Kevin Hurley
I think the whole way we train police now has seen massive underinvestment. It is about 25% of what it was 10 years ago, in every rank from constable to chief constable, and the misuse of PINs is an example of where we have the cop-out of online training. It is valid that we raise that. In terms of the Certificate of Policing—
Chair
There is a lot of online training, isn’t there, whereas it used to be face to face?
Kevin Hurley
Yes. So much of what the police do is about managing human beings and the only way to do that is face to face. It is a cop-out, in my view, to save money. I think the Certificate of Policing militates against people from lower socioeconomic groups joining and particularly reduces the number of people from African-Caribbean heritage and Bangladeshi heritage who might be able to join the police because they cannot front up the cost of their education. It runs full in the face of visible minority ethnic recruitment.
Chair
Commissioner Hurley, would you let us have a note on this, because we are producing our report imminently?
Kevin Hurley
Indeed.
Chair
And send us a copy of your very good presentation on PIN notices. What you say is of interest, so could you let us have it as soon as possible? Commissioner Bourne, we can learn about the certificate. Is there more to be done on this by the college? The Committee is concerned about the amount of online work that is done in training, as opposed to face to face.
Katy Bourne
One thing I have learned since I took office was that there is an awful lot expected of police officers. We are at a time of maximum demand from the public, probably at a time when resources are the most pressed. There are certain areas where online learning is absolutely appropriate and there are areas when it is not. The recent HMIC report around domestic abuse clearly showed that it was not appropriate in those circumstances, but there are other areas where it is because it is more convenient and a much more resource-efficient way of giving training.
Kevin Hurley
Chairman, could I just finish on one point to give you an example of what I mean? A detective constable in the Metropolitan police at one time got 14 weeks of basic training: two two-week modules and a 10-week module. They now get four weeks. You can work out the difference in levels of competence between four weeks or 14 weeks.
Chair
That is very helpful and if you can put that in your note, it would be even more helpful to the Committee. Commissioners Hurley and Bourne, thank you so much for coming in, especially at short notice. We are most grateful; thank you. Oral evidence: Police Information Notices, HC 901 23