Oral evidence: Prisons in Wales and treatment of Welsh offenders, HC 113

Oral evidence, 20 January 2015.

Witnesses

Councillor Hugh Jones, Lead Member for Communities, Partnerships and Collaboration, Wrexham County Borough Council, and Lee Robinson, Strategic and Performance Director, Wrexham County Borough Council, gave evidence.

Chair

Good morning, Councillor Jones and Mr Robinson. Thank you very much for coming along. I will let you get your water, if you like.

Councillor Jones

Thank you.

Chair

You are taking a great interest in the proposals to build a large prison in Wrexham. I understand that you have been looking at other prisons to work out what may be good and bad practice. I just wondered what thoughts, if any, you have on that.

Councillor Jones

One of the most important things is that we learn the lessons from the problems of new developments like Oakwood, where there were a number of early problems with the setting up and introduction of the prison, and that we learn the good points, in terms of the work that is being done at Parc on regimes such as the invisible walls programme and how Parc engages with the community, which seems to be producing really effective results. We should learn from both the good and the bad, so to speak.

Chair

You heard Mr Lockyer talk about the importance of design and the possible downsides of a large prison as against small prisons within an estate. He also suggested that it might be better to get the organisation that was going to run the prison to design it so that it could ensure that it had the right outcomes. What do you make of that? Are you confident that the proposals that we have would work well?

Councillor Jones

NOMS’s engagement with local authorities—the North Wales Regional Leadership Board—and partnership working have demonstrated that NOMS is willing to work with local communities to see how we can engage with those communities and what services we can offer to improve the resettlement of offenders. It is obvious from the evidence that you have had that there are a number of different views on the size of prisons. Some prison governors have said to you that there is no real barrier to a 2,100-prisoner prison being able to deliver the same outcomes as a small unit. You heard from the previous witness about the potential for economies of scale. From our point of view, the important thing is that the north Wales consortium of local authorities can work together with NOMS to deliver the outcomes we are all aiming for in terms of resettlement of offenders and reduction in reoffending. Our experience to date is a very positive one in that direction.

Lee Robinson

There are a couple of other things. The experience has been one of openness by the Ministry of Justice to recognising where in other prisons design has inherently been not as it would have expected. It has been open about that and has said, “We have corrected that for the Wrexham prison.” Equally, a lot of people from the authorities in north Wales have visited prisons and have been able to discuss their operation with prison operators and to input to that as well, to some extent. That has been a very positive experience.

Chair

You are obviously both very keen on having this prison, which is great. I have two prisons in my own constituency. In the case of one of them, certainly, people are less enthusiastic. Why are you so enthusiastic about this?

Councillor Jones

There is a very clear economic benefit to the region. The estimated income on an annual basis to the local economy is in the region of £23 million a year. The ability to generate up to 1,000 jobs is a very significant boost to the local economy. From the word go, our approach to the prison has been to have two clear streams. The first is to ensure that we maximise the benefit to the north Wales economy of having such a prison. The second is to work with the operators of the prison, NOMS and the MOJ to deliver the outcomes that we are all seeking in terms of reducing reoffending. We have two very clear streams of work.

Glyn Davies

I want to ask you about the way in which you are working with the others who will be delivering this prison in Wrexham. You have not had a prison before; it is a new thing for Wrexham and will be a new development for the local authority. Can you tell us a bit about how you are working with the deliverers of the Prison Service to make certain that the new prison starts off well, given that you have relatively no experience of dealing with this?

Lee Robinson

We are doing that in a number of ways. We are currently working with the contractors who are building the prison, so we are part of the construction phase. For that, there is an employment, skills and engagement working group, which covers the Ministry of Justice, the local authority and the economic ambition board. It is both about making sure that there is local employment during the construction phase and about working with educational institutions so that, when the prison becomes operational, there are skills in the local area to service it in the best way possible. We are also looking to wider projects across the whole of north Wales, on the understanding that Wylfa B over in Anglesey will be constructed at some point in time, so that the construction skills that we develop now can be retained and can work in west Wales, as and when that develops. There is also a region-wide steering group, which includes health, police and third sector agencies. That is looking at the impact of the prison and how we work together as agencies to tackle some of the things that Councillor Jones has mentioned around reoffending and the economy.

Glyn Davies

Reoffending, in particular, is the question that has been in my mind. When you are in a new situation like the new prison at Wrexham, where there is no history and background, is all the work being done to make certain that it starts off well in what will probably be a difficult position, with a lot of new prisoners all coming in suddenly, and that you can have reoffending programmes? That is an area of the work you are involved in.

Councillor Jones

To a certain extent, the question is how the prison will be populated. Presumably, one of the aims is to reduce the current overcrowding that exists. It is also about moving Welsh prisoners closer to their point of residence. Under transforming rehabilitation, the aim is to have prisoners serve the last three months of their sentence in a prison local to—or as near as possible to—their community. Recognising that this is a regional prison, serving not only north Wales but the north-west of England, it is important that we have those agencies in place to work with transforming rehabilitation and the 12-month support that is going to take place. Those are the sorts of things we are looking at. One interesting programme is the Clinks programme to develop social enterprise, which was a Home Office-led programme. We are looking at that in terms of how social enterprise can link in with prisons to reduce reoffending. There is some evidence that it has been very successful. In Wrexham, we have a number of social enterprises that are already keen to work with the prison, so that we will have the necessary structures in place to meet the objectives of the transforming rehabilitation scheme.

Lee Robinson

I know that previous witnesses before the Committee have mentioned the invisible walls programme down at Parc. We have done some work with Parc, but we are keen to have an equivalent programme in the Wrexham prison. We are hoping that, once the operator has been announced, we can start to talk to them about how we might we do that and that we will have plenty of time to put that in place. We have seen the positive impact that it has in terms of reoffending and rehabilitation.

Glyn Davies

There has been some opposition to this 2,100-place prison in Wrexham. Partly, it is because some people have seen it as a prison for north Wales, rather than a prison in north Wales. I have heard that, although I must admit that I do not really see it as a valid argument. The reality is that there will be a very large number of non-Welsh prisoners in the prison in Wrexham. Wrexham itself is very near to the border, so clearly the local area will be as much in England as it is in Wales. However, it is in Wales and we have devolution. Do you see the prison as having any aspects that would enable you to say that it was a Welsh prison—a prison that might accommodate more use of the Welsh language? Do you see any developments in the prison that might help to challenge the argument that this is not necessarily beneficial to Wales and is not really a Welsh prison?

Councillor Jones

For a start, it is very clear that the prison will be bilingual, because that will be a requirement. The lesson from Parc is a good one. The use of the Welsh language and Welsh culture is there in a supportive way for those who want to take advantage of it but is not necessarily a barrier to English prisoners. It is a very fine balance. It is important that you get the balance right, to ensure that there is support for the Welsh language and Welsh culture, but that is done in such a way that it does not create a barrier. I know that some of the previous witnesses before the Committee have made reference to the potential for that, but it needs to be handled sensitively. My view is that Parc seems to have the right balance in terms of how it does that.

Mr Williams

Councillor Jones, in your earlier comments you mentioned the importance of the proximity of the prison where the prisoner spends the last three months of their sentence to the outcome. The starker issue relates to women offenders and, indeed, young people. I notice that in your written evidence Wrexham council laments the fact that the prison will not accommodate young offenders and women, and that you are calling for that issue to be re-examined. I very much agree with that stance—if that is the stance—but could you elaborate a bit more? Given that we have a very small number of young and female offenders in Wales, particularly in north Wales, would a large Wrexham prison—even if facilities were accommodated in three units of 700 prisoners—be the right environment for those special groups of offenders and their needs?

Councillor Jones

It is a key point. In the early stages, I personally was supportive of the idea of integrating a young offenders facility and a female facility into the new prison. In February 2010, your Committee came to the conclusion that they ought to be on the same site. Having reflected on that and thought about it in greater detail, I now think that there are a number of factors that we need to take into account. The first point concerns female offenders. Until very recently, I was chairman of the magistrates bench, so I have some understanding of the background to this. There has been a very significant move on the part of the Ministry of Justice and others to reduce the number of women who are sent to prison, for obvious reasons. The second point is that a significant number of women who end up in prison go there because they have breached community orders. Their offending is at the lower level, by and large. It seems to me—Corston may well have come to a similar conclusion—that you need to deal with some of the reasons and problems that cause women to end up in prison, rather than create further prison capacity for females. There has also been a significant drop in the number of young offenders who are first-time entrants to the criminal justice system. Across Wrexham, there has been something like a 45% reduction in the last 12 months: we have seen six young offenders go into custody. In discussions that we have had with the Welsh Youth Justice Board, it seems to feel that the correct solution is to develop Werrington with a Welsh identity, as a young offenders institute, to deal with Welsh prisoners, and, to a certain extent, for Parc to provide some capacity. The point that I am making is that my own conclusion and opinion are that we need to continue down the pathway of reducing the reasons why females and young offenders go to prison, rather than to increase prison capacity. I do not know whether that answers your question.

Mr Williams

It answers it perfectly. Thank you.

Glyn Davies

I want to come in on the issue of devolution. There is a lot of uncertainty about where the devolutionary process, if I can call it that, will be by the time that the prison opens and about whether, by that stage, the Welsh Government will have some involvement in how prisons are run. What preparations are you making in anticipation of where things may be? There may be no change, but there may be change, so the position is a bit fluid and uncertain when you are anticipating what it will be like when the prison opens. What discussions are you having? What preparations are you making for what may be a devolved position quite different from what it is now?

Councillor Jones

It is a very difficult question to answer, because of the point that you make about uncertainty. The view that I would take is that, uniquely in Wales, the head of NOMS will have responsibility for both prison and probation. That in itself is a new area. It is unique: the only place in which responsibility for prisons and probation will be combined. You have the new CRCs coming in and the transforming rehabilitation programme. The most important thing is to make the prison work within the new structures and to give those structures time to bed down. The last thing we need on top of the current changing environment is further uncertainty and change. There is a very powerful argument that you do not need devolution to work in partnership and collaboration. It is very important that we allow the new systems to bed down, rather than try to create further uncertainty and change.

Glyn Davies

That is quite clear.

Chair

Following on from that, at the moment Welsh prisoners who come out of prison are given accommodation via the Welsh Assembly and English prisoners are not. Could you tell me a bit more about how that works, if you know the answer to that? Who funds it? Is it funded by local authorities, or do you get hypothecated funding from the Welsh Assembly? What is it worth? What are the practicalities here?

Lee Robinson

It is changing. My understanding is that leaving a prison does not give automatic residency in an area, but I do not know a lot of detail about the housing element, I am afraid.

Councillor Jones

That is my understanding, too—that it is changing.

Chair

I know that the Welsh Assembly has funding in place to prioritise accommodation for people coming out of prison. My follow-up question was going to be, if you have a prison located on the border but on the Welsh side, and if prisoners can derive a benefit from registering in Wales because they are more likely to get accommodation, are you not concerned that all of a sudden everyone who leaves Wrexham prison will say, “I want to stay in Wrexham, because I will get accommodation here and will not get it in England”?

Councillor Jones

My understanding is that the rehabilitation process will be rehabilitation back to their original address, rather than to the local area.

Chair

Finally, about half—possibly slightly over half—would be English prisoners, anyway. Are you confident that, as well as looking after the needs of Welsh language speakers and Welsh prisoners, a new prison will accommodate the needs of non-Welsh, non-Welsh-speaking prisoners?

Councillor Jones

At the end of the day, the needs of all of the prisoners will be the same. It is about the programmes that you put in place—the rehabilitation, the pathways and the through-the-gate programmes three months before release we have already talked about. Those do not require them to be Welsh speaking or non-Welsh speaking. What we will be able to provide in Wrexham is the added advantage of a Welsh identity in support of those prisoners who need it. In terms of the rehabilitation processes, all of the prisoners, irrespective of whether they are Welsh or English, should be able to avail themselves of the same programmes.

Chair

That is excellent. Thank you very much. Prisons in Wales and treatment of Welsh offenders, HC 113 14