Oral evidence: Prisons in Wales and treatment of Welsh offenders, HC 113
Oral evidence, 5 February 2015.
Witnesses
Meri Huws and Huw Gapper, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg (Welsh Language Commissioner), gave evidence.
Chair
(Translation) Good afternoon, Meri. How are you, Mr Gapper? Nice to see you both. We know each other very well. Thank you both for coming today. I will start in English. (Continued in English) Of particular interest to me as a member of the Council of Europe is what is the UK’s current position in terms of its commitments under the European convention on human rights and the European charter for regional or minority languages?
Meri Huws
(Translation) Thank you for that question. Are those charters of great use to us? I do not know, but I will refer specifically to how those two actually take account of these issues. First, as you know, the UK Government have signed up to certain elements of the European charter for regional or minority languages, of which article 10, if memory serves me correctly, states that the UK Government are committed to providing appropriate public services through the medium of Welsh. On 15 January last year, a report by the Committee appeared that looked specifically at the charter’s implementation in Britain, and although there are some positive comments, generally speaking the provision of public services through the medium of Welsh is still weak across the UK, and I think this is relevant to prison services as well as other public services. We have also seen evidence that the picture is very patchy. So that is the first thing: the report on the European charter on minority languages. Article 6.3 of section I of the European convention on human rights states that when an individual is sentenced or when evidence of transgression of the law is presented, the information should be provided in the language that he or she understands. It does not mention which language that should be, but I think there is a fundamental principle there in terms of effective communication within the prison service, which is of use to you as a Committee as you consider your evidence. We are not talking about a specific language, but a fundamental right to receive information in a language that the individual understands. That could be, and more and more would be, the Welsh language.
Chair
I was in a young offenders institute recently—Pucklechurch in England, but it was housing people from Wales as well. I had a feeling, perhaps unfairly, that the vast majority there were not speaking English all that well, even though they were mostly native English speakers. Do you feel there is a demand in Welsh that is not being met, or whether we should actually be looking at the basic language and literacy skills of those who go into the system? I do not want to be unkind about it, but I feel a lot of them really lack just basic skills, full stop, and Welsh would be a huge luxury but maybe not one that many of them are ready for yet.
Meri Huws
(Translation) Naturally, as the Welsh Language Commissioner, it is the Welsh language that is the subject of interest to me. On the question of effective communication, you mentioned the word “luxury”. I would make two points: the fundamental right to be allowed to communicate in your own language—the Welsh language now has official status—and to effective communication in the first language or mother tongue because they cannot communicate effectively in their second language. I would argue strongly that such an offer in terms of the prison service and natural justice is not a luxury, but a fundamental and basic need.
Chair
(Translation) What is your assessment of the status of the Welsh language in prisons? I do not want to pick just on you, Meri.
Meri Huws
(Translation) No, you can pick on Huw as well, but I will begin. Our contact with the prison service is twofold. First, we have links with NOMS, which has a language scheme that was approved in 2013. We have a relationship as regards the way in which they are trying to deliver services, therefore we get a possible source of information from NOMS. We also get some information from individuals who bring concerns to our attention and some of those concerns turn into formal complaints. We have dealt with five formal complaints against the prison service since the establishment of the Welsh Language Commissioner post. What we are seeing at present on the basis of both complaints and evidence, and of course research carried out by others, is that the service is very, very patchy. There are examples of good practice that you have heard about, both in and outside of Wales, where an effort is made to meet demands, but it is not very effective and it is not consistent—it is very patchy across England and Wales. However, I must emphasise that the data and evidence being collected are weak. The Chief Inspector of Prisons drew that to your attention earlier, but it is a cause of concern, certainly for me, that the data that form the basis of the service planning are particularly thinly spread. If anything needs to be done, it is that the quality of that data needs to be improved.
Nia Griffith
(Translation) Hello and welcome. May I ask you about Wrexham? The new prison in Wrexham will provide an opportunity to create systems that better respond to the needs of Welsh-language prisoners. What would you like to see happen to create effective provision in Wrexham?
Meri Huws
(Translation) Thank you for that question. I agree that there is an opportunity here to look anew, with fresh eyes, at what is being provided in Wales. If I may return to my answer to the previous question, the first entirely essential thing is current, reliable data in terms of the nature of the community and the community within the prison. How many people—men, women and young people—speak Welsh should be the basis for planning. In looking at the experience in the new prison at Wrexham, what I as Commissioner would hope to see is an entirely bilingual service that provides for the needs of individuals who want to communicate through the medium of Welsh, be that with staff and with third-sector organisations who come into the prison—there will be great emphasis on moving people on when they leave prison, so the link with the third sector is so important. The link with the education system should appropriately be available through the medium of Welsh, where that is the language of choice. I would also hope that the experience of families will be considered. We have heard evidence of families feeling excluded when dealing with prisons, so there should be appropriate provision in terms of the Welsh language and there should not be any problems arising. I would also hope that an assessment would be made—Huw might like to add to this—of developing Wrexham prison and looking at the impact of that on the community of north-east Wales. That would be an important piece of work. Prisons exist not in a vacuum, but in a certain area and a certain community. Therefore, we should not look simply at what is happening in the prison and plan that for that purpose, but we should look at its impact on north Wales as a whole and north-east Wales specifically.
Huw Gapper
(Translation) I think we must consider the proposed size of the prison. We have not been collecting evidence on this ourselves, but evidence has been stated—based on research into large prisons in other areas, I believe—that the majority of the prison staff may not be local people. If so, there is a potential for such a large number of new people to move into the area that it will have a huge impact on the community—for example, the number of school places needed. We will need quite a detailed impact assessment not only of the possible negative effects, but of the potential for the prison to contribute to the Government’s vision of promoting the Welsh language. For example, if people do move to the area to work— which may be inevitable—there will be opportunities to promote the teaching and learning of Welsh in prisons, and there might be other positive side effects for the Welsh language.
Meri Huws
(Translation) Huw’s point leads us on to another aspect of our vision of what could happen: the creation of a bilingual work force that can appropriately serve within a prison, be that by providing language skills to the people moving in, or looking at the work force for the future that could provide this Welsh-medium and bilingual service within the prison. We talk a great deal about the Welsh language, but we also need to look at the shape of the prison inside and how that can be designed. You have taken evidence about the idea of creating a campus, and looking at the needs of young people and women when planning the new prison in Wrexham. This is a wonderful opportunity to take a step back and look at the needs of prisoners from Wales—that is my interest—and the nature of the prison, and to think afresh.
Nia Griffith
(Translation) Your evidence is very interesting. Have you had an opportunity to play a role in planning the new prison in Wrexham?
Meri Huws
(Translation) There is a healthy relationship between the commissioner and NOMS in Wales. We appreciate the fact that NOMS has one chief officer in Wales looking at the prison service and the probation service, and negotiations and discussions are ongoing. However, we still need further evidence. One of the strong messages from the commissioner’s office is that we need more evidence and a greater understanding of the current patterns and how we can create a prison that will meet those needs. We are at the beginning of the journey. That relationship needs to be strengthened, and NOMS needs to gather that evidence.
Nia Griffith
(Translation) Is NOMS open to your comments, and does it listen to your good ideas?
Meri Huws
(Translation) We certainly have regular meetings with NOMS. The extent to which it takes that information on board is a question for NOMS.
Huw Gapper
(Translation) Yes, a dialogue is taking place as regards planning Welsh language services within the prisons, and, as has been mentioned, we need to look in a broader manner at the prison’s effect on the Welsh language in Wrexham and the neighbouring areas. We have asked the question who is going to undertake that assessment, and we have not received a response. Other major infrastructure projects are taking place in north Wales at present, and work is being undertaken to assess the impact of those developments on the Welsh language; and so it is something that needs to be done and that could be done, but we have not yet been required or invited to be part of any such assessment.
Mrs James
(Translation) You have mentioned that some Welsh-speaking prisoners are dependent on friends and family for Welsh-language books, rather than on prison libraries. What is the evidence for this?
Meri Huws
(Translation) Some months ago, if not slightly over a year ago, a statement was made about prisoners’ privileges and that there was an effort to reduce the number of privileges—that people could not receive books in the same manner as previously. It is interesting that, when that happened, we heard, again, second hand, and came to understand how dependent prisoners were on friends and family for receiving books and resources through the medium of Welsh. In many prisons—and we must bear in mind that Welsh prisoners are in about 108 prisons across Wales and England—the provision was weak and thinly spread. So certainly outside Wales it is very patchy, and it is not planned from the centre; and in a period when people are much more dependent on information technology, this is another example of lack of strategic planning from the centre.
Mrs James
(Translation) In your view, what is the minimum level of educational provision for Welsh speakers—first or second-language Welsh speakers? What is the very minimum that they should offer prisoners?
Meri Huws
(Translation) I am going to challenge the concept of a minimum standard—
Mrs James
(Translation) Minimum levels, not standards.
Meri Huws
(Translation) I think if you look at individual rights, they should fundamentally be the same wherever they are in the prison system. I understand that there are practical challenges in that regard, but an effort should be made, as is reflected in the NOMS language scheme, to ensure appropriate provision and an assessment of that provision wherever that prisoner is, in Wales or in England—wherever they are placed. That is the basis for planning: to assume that an individual has a right to an assessment of basic needs, a right to bilingual provision, wherever the prisoner is, and to plan for that. That may mean that decisions have to be made on prisoner location in order to secure those fundamental rights.
Mrs James
(Translation) What about people who make their homes in Wales, or need to learn Welsh or improve their Welsh skills—not Welsh speakers but those who want to learn the language? What sort of standards should be in place for those people, and what should prisons offer, wherever they are in the prison estate?
Meri Huws
(Translation) I will turn to Huw on this one.
Huw Gapper
(Translation) I think that is an extremely interesting point. Other organisations that have provided evidence to you referred to the significant potential that Welsh language skills have for those people who need to be re-established in communities in Wales, particularly in Welsh-speaking or bilingual communities. So that is a very interesting question indeed. Estyn has published reports in the context of the education available specifically to young people in prisons in Wales, and they demonstrate that the Welsh language training provision is inconsistent and isn’t proactively offered to young people. The potential is there, according to the evidence provided by a number of organisations, but the reports suggest that perhaps we aren’t taking full advantage of that potential at present.
Glyn Davies
(Translation) I have one brief question, which will more than likely conclude the session. What will be the impact of devolving the prison and probation systems to Wales? What will be the challenges and opportunities for the Welsh language if that were to occur some time in the future?
Meri Huws
(Translation) I’m not going to express a view on devolving the services, but I would argue strongly that the needs are the same whether or not they are devolved. There should be an understanding, based on firm and contemporary evidence, of the needs of Wales in the prison service, and purposeful planning. We should then measure the impact of that provision, because there is a lot of talk in the prison and justice services about moving people on—relocating and resettling people—and it is about more than just providing a prison; it is about providing a public service. Whether or not it is devolved, the needs of Welsh speakers within the service have to be at the heart of planning in Wales or in Wales and England. The needs are the same wherever the service is.
Chair
(Translation) That is fair enough. Thank you very much for joining us today and for providing evidence.
Meri Huws
(Translation) Thank you for the invitation. This is an exceptionally important piece of work. It is very timely, when there is so much discussion about the development of Wrexham prison and the needs and aims of the justice system.
Chair
(Translation) I hope that the Government will agree and look very carefully at our report when it is published. Thank you very much. Prisons in Wales and treatment of Welsh offenders, HC 113 3