Oral evidence: Police bail, HC 962Tuesday 3 March 2015

Oral evidence, 3 March 2015.

Witness

Chief Constable Chris Eyre, Nottinghamshire Police, National Lead of Criminal Justice, gave evidence.

Chair

Mr Eyre, thank you very much for coming in. I am sorry we are running a tiny bit late but we are most grateful to you for coming in. You have heard all that evidence. Obviously you had nothing to do with the Paul Gambaccini case. You are here as the Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire and the ACPO lead on bail. We had hoped that we would have with you the Assistant Metropolitan Commissioner, but she has other duties with the President of Mexico. So we have excused her from attending on this occasion, but next week we will be having the Metropolitan Police Commissioner and we will put some of these points to him, specifically about Yewtree. I am more interested, and I think the Committee is interested, in the principle of police bail because we are going to have to produce a report very shortly. On the basis of the evidence we have heard, and again not commenting on the circumstances but the general principles, bail seems to have been used in a number of cases as a fishing expedition; an attempt to get a suspect in and then re-bail them until there is sufficient evidence. What is ACPO’s view on this?

Chief Constable Eyre

I regard bail and the police service regards the use of pre-charge bail as a necessary tool to use in the investigation of criminal offences. It has to be used in a proportionate and effective manner but it enables criminal investigations to take place, sometimes of a most serious nature, and make sure that we both afford the accused and the victim the right kind of protections through that process.

Chair

In terms of cases several decades old and in particular the case we have just heard, there are differences between cases, are there not? In some cases you may need to arrest; in others you do not. But publicity seems to flow from police action. You cannot control every single officer in the Nottinghamshire Police. You will not know who rings up the press and tells them things, but that is one of the consequences, is it not?

Chief Constable Eyre

The point you raise, Mr Vaz, about every investigation is different. As a result of the introduction of changes in Code G of PACE from, I believe, October 2012 we have a requirement that in all cases where we are considering arrest we must apply a necessity test. It is very difficult for us to disaggregate all the changes that have taken place in terms of numbers of people who are arrested now, as opposed to beforehand, because there are all kinds of other changes that have taken place in the system. Police custody areas have closed. We have had the introduction of all kinds of other changes in the way we deal with matters. Just dealing with my own force area, we are dealing with about a one-third reduction in the number of people who are arrested now compared with 2011.

Chair

The one-third reduction is because of austerity measures.

Chief Constable Eyre

No, there is a necessity test applied around arrests that custody sergeants are required to apply. I would not claim that all of that reduction is entirely down to the necessity test because so many other changes have been going on in the background. We have seen reductions in crime rates. We have also seen closures of police custody areas. Just as a colleague has recently mentioned about the use of arrests, we now very commonly use voluntary attendance at police stations as a means to be able to investigate offences.

Chair

How many people would have voluntarily attended the Nottinghamshire constabulary offices?

Chief Constable Eyre

That is a jolly good question. I wish I could give you that number off the top of my head. I am afraid, Mr Vaz, I cannot. I can provide it to the Committee later.

Chair

If you could give us a comparison. Obviously we do not need today’s figures, but if you give us a figure for last year, and also if you could give us the figures just of Nottinghamshire since you are here, but you might be able to do that for the whole of ACPO, of those on bail. Would anyone know how many citizens in the UK were on bail at this moment?

Chief Constable Eyre

One person would not. Within each force there are systems to be able to manage it. What I can tell you—

Chair

You would know?

Chief Constable Eyre

No. I look after the police service around the criminal justice business area. In terms of how each police force manages their pre-charge bail, that is a matter for—

Chair

You are the Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire.

Chief Constable Eyre

I am indeed.

Chair

Just in respect of Nottinghamshire, would you know how many people are currently on bail?

Chief Constable Eyre

Not precisely on this date. What I can tell you is the figures of where we are as a result of the research we have done across the country about the use of pre-charge bail at the moment. If I give you that information, Mr Vaz, I may be able to help. Each force system that quantifies their data about how many people are on bail are slightly different systems, so comparable data at times is difficult to pull together. We nevertheless have been across the country. Out of 26 forces that we can identify strictly comparable data, there are about 980,000 people who are arrested in any one year. Of that number about 31% of those people who are arrested are bailed, and 69% of people are dealt with on the day of arrest where bail is not applied. People are dealt with on the day that they are arrested and therefore not bailed.

Chair

Right. Basically, according to those figures, one-third of a million people in the United Kingdom are bailed

Chief Constable Eyre

Within any one 12-month period, one-third of the people who are arrested. So in terms of—

Chair

What is one-third of a million? My maths is not—

Chief Constable Eyre

One-third of a million and one-third of the people who have been arrested. Slightly over two-thirds, are dealt with on the day that they are arrested.

Chair

I understand that. That sounds like an awful lot of people. In respect of the 28-day limit, the Home Secretary seems pretty firm on this and she seems to have a great deal of support that we need to limit these powers in some way, because there is a view that bail is just used as some kind of a fishing expedition for the police. What is ACPO’s view on the 28-day limit?

Chief Constable Eyre

My view in relation to it is 28 days would be unhelpful as a limit. What I would agree completely with is that the principle should be that people should be on bail for such time as is necessary to allow the reasonable lines of inquiry to be pursued.

Chair

That is so vague, Mr Eyre; that is the problem.

Chief Constable Eyre

We may be able to assist in making it less vague.

Chair

Well, make it less vague in the sentence you give me next.

Chief Constable Eyre

Okay. We proposed to the Home Secretary that, along with the changes that have already applied around necessity for arrest, we should apply a necessity test at the point where bail is applied, not only in terms of the necessity of the bail but a proportionality test about the time period for that bail and the conditions that are applied. So it should be at the point where bail is applied that we apply a proportionality test about the conditions that we impose and the period for that bail, and that period should be set based upon the reasonable lines of inquiry that can be dealt with by the custody sergeant to determine what is reasonable in the circumstances.

Chair

Mr Eyre, the point that has been put to us in compelling evidence that we received today from Mr Gambaccini and Ms Goold is you should have your tackle in order before you go out arresting people.

Chief Constable Eyre

Very often we do; very often.

Chair

Not if you bail one-third of a million people a year. The Home Secretary has a point, does she not, that if we limit it to 28 days at least she achieves what you have just said? People will start thinking carefully before they go out arresting people and bailing them.

Chief Constable Eyre

Chairman, we do think carefully, hence the application of the—

Chair

Why did you not have a proportionality test and a necessity test before the Home Secretary decided to have a 28-day limit?

Chief Constable Eyre

Because the law in terms of how bail is applied has been applied consistently across the police service. We have been asked questions around how it might be changed. We have put forward proposals around how we could do that to ensure a greater level of control in relation to this matter that could be dealt with. If I could just give you an answer to your question—

Chair

Before the Home Secretary’s statement on bail, nobody came up with this idea of the proportionality test or the necessity test. What I am saying is, as a result of what the Government is doing, the police are now thinking very carefully about whether or not they should go out and arrest and bail people. That is a good thing, but it is not as good as keeping it to a limit of 28 days, is it?

Chief Constable Eyre

I will answer each point of that in turn. In terms of when the question was raised around proportionality, we identified in May 2013 principles that included the elements of proportionality and proposed that as a way forward. That is not as a result of the recent changes. In terms of the 28 days, what we are in agreement with is that there should be a clear understanding that the time for pre-charge bail should be what is necessary to follow up reasonable lines of inquiry. For example, the questions that were raised earlier by your colleague around forensic evidence, forensic investigation, digital investigations and what takes place around that, the complexity of securing information from cross-jurisdictional inquiries, which are more common these days than they have ever been, securing medical evidence, and not simply taking each one of those in isolation but very often they come up in an investigation.

Chair

We absolutely understand that in certain cases it requires all this activity but what I and the Committee are saying is, when you deal with reputations of individuals like Mr Gambaccini, for example, who was found to have committed no offence but has gone through a period of re-bailing over a period of 12 months, his life will never be the same again, in pursuit of those who are criminals do we not think that damage is done to those who are innocent?

Chief Constable Eyre

In conducting our inquiries where we have a criminal allegation and people are alleging offences that we need to pursue, we do not know at the outset whether that allegation is false or accurate. The allegations need to be investigated to make sure that we respect the rights of victims. Where we arrest because we meet a necessity standard around that arrest there are investigations that will take place, including the interview of the suspect or the alleged suspect in relation to the offence and, where bail is necessary, that bail is to facilitate the investigation of those offences.

Chair

Do you agree that bail has been misused or used too regularly in the past and we now ought to look at tests being applied before it is being given?

Chief Constable Eyre

What we have agreed is that when we look—

Chair

I do not want you to agree. I am asking your opinion. Do you agree that in the past it has been used too liberally and now we must stand back and look at proportionality and necessity tests?

Chief Constable Eyre

Mr Vaz, the way you express it is a different way than the way I would. Let me answer in my way, if I may. I would argue that there have been different ways of dealing with it in different locations around the country. We believe there is a consistency that can be brought by applying those controls in the way that I have described, and that will be both to the benefit and protection of vulnerable victims where we are investigating allegations they have made and also to ensure timely and proportional investigations.

Chair

A final two questions for me. On anonymity, do you think it would be right that people should be given anonymity until they are charged?

Chief Constable Eyre

It is a hugely complex issue. In the vast majority of cases suspects will not be named at the point when they are arrested. I believe it should be a subject—

Chair

If they are famous they are always named. For example there was a footballer last night who was—

Chief Constable Eyre

I am not sure whether that is the case, Mr Vaz. I know there are many occasions when famous people have been named, but I could not tell you that in all cases they are. What I would say is that in criminal investigations where we have an allegation of the nature that was described earlier, an individual in charge of that investigation should be responsible for making an informed judgment about whether it is necessary to make that name public in order that other people who may be victims can have the opportunity to bring it forward. There should be no presumptions.

Chair

No, but the point that was being made by our witnesses and other witnesses is that it is not done directly. Nobody is saying that you as Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire would be leaking this information out, but it is not astonishing the number of members of the press who turn up? For example, the case of this footballer yesterday and the number of people outside his house; how would they know such a thing?

Chief Constable Eyre

Mr Vaz, I cannot tell you how people knew in that case. What I can tell you is that if you separated away the fact that there may be occasions when information is made available informally, if we focus on the question about whether there should be a formal naming at some stage around suspects in certain offences, I believe that is a matter that should be determined by the senior investigating officer based upon a judgment of the value of doing so and the nature of the crime that is under investigation. It is done very rarely, but there are occasions when I can concede it would be appropriate to do so, accepting that—

Chair

It is not done formally, Mr Eyre. The point is it is not done formally. It is done informally.

Chief Constable Eyre

There are occasions when it is.

Chair

I know, but very rarely as you say. Much more likely is that the press get hold of it because of a police leak.

Chief Constable Eyre

I accept your point in terms of the press becoming aware. How they may become aware, I am afraid, Mr Vaz, certainly in the case you have mentioned, I do not know. I am not suggesting for a minute they were not, but I do not know how that information was made available to the press on those occasions.

Chair

No, of course not. Nobody knows because nobody owns up.

Chief Constable Eyre

One thing I would say, Mr Vaz, is in the world post-Leveson there is very acute awareness across the entire police service about the need to engage appropriately with the media and for information to only be made available in appropriate ways. We recognise the vulnerability.

Chair

Well, we are very grateful to hear that.

Michael Ellis

It is not enough, though, is it, Chief Constable?

Chief Constable Eyre

I am sorry. Say again?

Michael Ellis

There is not enough recognition clearly, because information is still being leaked by the police to the media when it suits interests. The current situation as far as bail is concerned is simply inexcusable, is it not? It is just not good enough. We hear about people’s lives. I prosecuted and defended people in court as a barrister before I was elected to this House and I have personal experience of knowing that for people on long stretches of bail their lives were effectively ruined, turned upside down, by being on bail for long stretches of time only to either have cases dropped against them or to later be acquitted. I am asking you to accept before this Committee that there are serious problems in this country with the administration of police bail that need to be addressed.

Chief Constable Eyre

I have agreed with you that there are ways that we can and should apply greater controls in relation to it. What I would say in terms of where there are very lengthy investigations, dependent upon the nature of the case that we are dealing with and the inquiries that are involved, many criminal investigations are hugely complex and time-consuming because they need to be managed in sequence.

Michael Ellis

Yes. I make it clear, as I said to the previous witness, that there are circumstances in which there should be prolonged bail, where there are complex cases, fraud and the like, forensic reasons or foreign jurisdictions involved, of course. However, there are also many cases where people appear to be being re-bailed for no reason other than convenience of the police, other than workload possibly or sometimes even orchestrated with other cases. That is the allegation and it is a serious allegation. I suggest that if people are being re-bailed because of convenient orchestration with the conduct of other cases that is tantamount to a perversion of the course of justice. It is a misadministration of justice for somebody to be put on police bail if there is an orchestration with other cases. That would be wrong in principle, would it not, if that were happening?

Chief Constable Eyre

If the hypothesis were true I would accept it. I do not know that that is the case.

Michael Ellis

But it is a disgrace, is it not, that someone, whether he be a celebrity or not, finds out from the press that he has been re-bailed? That is just unacceptable.

Chief Constable Eyre

Mr Ellis, I cannot comment on Mr Gambaccini’s case. As was mentioned earlier, I had no involvement in it. What I can say is—

Michael Ellis

Well, if it were the case that someone found out from the press something important about their own case, that would not be the proper conduit through which they should find out a piece of information?

Chief Constable Eyre

The proper conduit should be that either their solicitor is notified or they are notified directly of the amendment to bail requirements.

Michael Ellis

Has it been your experience as a senior chief constable that there has been any orchestration of the adjournment of cases in police bail because it was convenient to marry that case up with another defendant or to ascertain whether there are other complainants who may come forward?

Chief Constable Eyre

It has not been my experience at all.

Michael Ellis

You have never known of that?

Chief Constable Eyre

Not in my experience at all, either of those assertions.

Michael Ellis

Have you ever known of any police officer under your command, in Nottinghamshire or elsewhere, who has given information to the press about a celebrity individual who is appearing before the courts?

Chief Constable Eyre

I am not aware of any cases.

Michael Ellis

Can I suggest to you that you must have heard of some cases? It must be the case that you are conscious of famous people who have come before the courts in Nottinghamshire that have attracted media attention before they have arrived at the court, whether it be for a speeding offence or something else?

Chief Constable Eyre

I am not aware of cases in that way. If I were I would agree with you. I am not aware of cases in that way.

Michael Ellis

Just one more question from me. What about the suggestion from some quarters that information is drip-fed out in a way to promulgate a police case or to further police action in a cause célèbre of the moment, the timing of information being made public so that it suits? Mr Gambaccini referred to things happening only after other individuals were charged or sentenced or whatever it was. Do you think there is anything in that, any suggestion that information is disclosed?

Chief Constable Eyre

If you give me a few minutes to explain. I have no knowledge of any of those investigations. I think you will have the Commissioner with you next week, who may be able to give you a better insight in terms of the timing of decisions.

Michael Ellis

I shall ask Sir Bernard all about that, but I am asking you, not about any particular case but about cases in general, whether you are aware of that type of orchestration of information.

Chief Constable Eyre

Chair, Mr Ellis, I am not aware, no.

Michael Ellis

I understand while this Committee has been in session there has been some news about Rolf Harris. I am just wondering whether that was a coincidence or whether that is part of the media management of this situation. I suppose it is probably a coincidence, Mr Chairman.

Chair

I am sure it is absolute coincidence, Mr Ellis. We will leave that for the moment.

Michael Ellis

Yes.

Mr Winnick

Chief Constable, what you are telling the Committee is that basically the present situation over bail conditions should continue?

Chief Constable Eyre

No, Mr Winnick. What I am saying is that we can improve on it and make sure that we apply better controls. My proposal is that, at the point where a person is released on bail, a necessity test is applied to determine whether or not bail is necessary. I just reaffirm what I said earlier: 69% of people who are arrested are not bailed and 31% of people who have been arrested are. At the moment we do not bail all people subject to criminal investigations, but the introduction of an additional necessity test at the point of bailing would apply an additional control that could be monitored, managed and co-ordinated. I am also recommending that at the point that we do so, where we apply conditions in a timescale for pre-charge bail, necessity and proportionality tests are applied there so we are clear about the length of the bail that is required and why. Mr Ellis’s point earlier about forensic investigation was well made. We ought to be very clear at the outset that, if we are bailing a person for either further inquiries to do with witnesses or alternatively for forensic inquiries, we are able to determine what is a reasonable length to enable those things to happen because we know how long it is likely to take for first phase forensic submissions and evidence to come back. It is not simply applied to the most serious of cases because very often in things such as harassment we will these days be dealing with technical forensic analysis of telephone traffic, text messaging or computer records. It can apply to all kinds of cases, but we can apply that at the point when bail is made.

Mr Winnick

Chief Constable, that rather reminds me of the controversy in the last Parliament over pre-charge arrest regarding terrorism, when the police argued so strongly for 90 days and the Government of the day took that line as well, all the reasons why it was so necessary to go beyond the existing time of 14 days and so on. You are aware of that controversy. The argument seems to be, on this issue, very much along the same lines as you have just been indicating as a justification. When you were listening to the previous witness did you not feel that something must be wrong with the present situation as the witness was explaining to us what he had suffered as a result of long drawn out bail conditions?

Chief Constable Eyre

Who could not have been moved by listening to Mr Gambaccini’s account? His experience of going through it was clearly very distressing for him.

Mr Winnick

Yes, certainly not something you would wish to go through?

Chief Constable Eyre

Forgive me. I have been subject to investigations, as many senior police officers have, but I would never equate my experience with that of Mr Gambaccini’s. What I would say in relation to an inquiry that is conducted is, when we are conducting a criminal investigation and the bail that takes place, the referral of matters to the Crown Prosecution Service for their advice will often lead to further lines of action that we are advised to take in order to substantiate whether or not there is evidence that a person has committed an offence. Ultimately, where that investigation follows those lines of inquiry and establishes there is no evidence, quite properly a decision should be made for no further action to be taken. In those cases for the individual who has gone through the experience I can understand the distress that is caused but, of course, until we conduct reasonable lines of inquiry we do not know that that is going to be the outcome. We need to understand and respect the rights and needs of victims as well as those who are accused. Very often in complex historical investigations we are dealing with people who have very complex lives, where there are extreme vulnerabilities, and we need to engage in a sensitive and caring way about their experience and allegations, along with then looking for corroboration that may assist us in understanding whether their account can be supported or not. Often many years later, it is difficult to identify contemporaneous evidence from when the alleged offences occurred. It does not remove from us the obligation of following those lines of inquiry to establish whether or not those offences have taken place. The phase in which that takes place will often result in a file being submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service for advice where they will look at and determine whether or not at that stage there is a prima facie case or whether it is necessary to conduct further lines of inquiry or not. We will then act or work upon that. It is a staged and iterative process that is designed to make sure that we protect the rights of the vulnerable, the allegations and also protect the rights of the accused.

Paul Flynn

That is what has happened.

Chair

Order, Mr Flynn. Mr Winnick is asking questions.

Mr Winnick

Obviously to secure justice is absolutely essential and the Committee, when it is drawing up its report, will take into account a number of factors, not least what you have been saying. Obviously the first witness who appeared before us made a very strong case indeed. Can I now refer you to some of the answers you gave to Mr Ellis? Time and again, if it is a personality who is quite prominent, certainly in show business, what happens is the police do not release the name, although the media obviously know who it is. The police give the gender and the age of the person and it is a sort of game. They do not say, “Mr XY has been arrested and is subject to investigation or subject to police bail”. It gives the gender and the age, when everyone in the media knows precisely who is involved. I just do not understand why there seems to be such a compulsion in practice, whatever may be said otherwise in evidence to us, on the police when it comes to prominent individuals to let the press know when it is unclear whether the individual has been involved in the crimes or offences that have been alleged.

Chief Constable Eyre

Mr Winnick, I will draw the distinction again if I may between a conscious and determined decision to disclose for reasons to enable other potential victims to come forward, which is something that could be done by the senior investigating officer, and something that is dealt with informally. In terms of the position that we would often take with the media, we will usually confirm an individual of a gender and age has been arrested in relation to certain offences. It is not beyond the wit of a very capable journalist to not only try to secure the information from the police service but to conduct inquiries in a whole range of other ways to establish who that person may have been. We would generally not confirm, if approached, with a name in those circumstances about the fact that that person had been arrested. Where we get allegations of information being leaked by police officers or by police staff, we will investigate and deal with it. It is incredibly difficult to establish that because, short of taking every telephone that a police employee may have, every possible means of communication, it is almost an impossible thing to control. What we do set is very clear standards about information security and our obligations and make sure that, in the formal way that we engage with media around such matters, we are very clear about what we can say in an appropriate manner.

Tim Loughton

When a case is dropped before it comes to an arrest or charge there is no formal process for that, is there? It can be re-energised at any time?

Chief Constable Eyre

Yes. If further new evidence comes to light or further allegations are made it can be recommenced, yes.

Tim Loughton

Do you think there should be more formal staging posts, effectively, if clearly a case is going nowhere and it would be ended and you have to start it again?

Chief Constable Eyre

Prior to arrest, or afterwards?

Tim Loughton

Prior to arrest, because there are various hits that the police have in order to try to make something stick and then, secondly, there is the constant re-bailing that we heard from Mr Gambaccini. Do you think that should be capped so that you cannot be re-bailed for more than one, two, three times or whatever? In many other parts of life or in the legal process you would not get an unlimited range of opportunities to make something stick. It would be time-limited or case-limited.

Chief Constable Eyre

I will use different language if I may. Where an allegation is made, we will conduct an investigation. If there is insufficient evidence to arrest or pursue it, when a defence is closed a decision will be made and it will be recorded on the system that is retained within the force about that decision and why the case has been terminated at that stage. Should new evidence come to light or a further allegation be made it is reasonable then that inquiries would be reopened in order to conduct a further investigation. It should be dealt with in that way. Where a person is arrested the necessity test applies along with the powers under section 25 and 76 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act so that it is done in a lawful manner. Do I think it is reasonable that there should be a limit? The proposal we have made to the Home Secretary is that at six months matters should be taken before a magistrate to determine if further bail is required after the six-month period. The reason we set it at that level is at the moment 2% of arrests result in a person being on bail for more than six months. We believe at that stage it is reasonable for magistrates to be involved in making that determination about whether further bail is necessary. We believe that by applying the conditions that I described earlier we can tighten and shorten the length of time that people are on bail and improve the overall management of police bail across the country so it is less and less likely that it is required.

Chair

Very helpful, Mr Eyre. If you have anything else to say to us, please write to us. We are planning to get this report out very soon because, as you know, Parliament is being dissolved. So we are completing our work, but I would be grateful if you could do that as soon as possible.

Chief Constable Eyre

Thank you for very much for your time.

Chair

Our final witness is the Director of Public Prosecution, Alison Saunders. Examination of Witness

Witness

Alison Saunders, Director of Public Prosecutions, gave evidence.

Chair

Thank you very much for coming. I am sorry we are running a little bit late, DPP, but we are grateful to you for coming here. I want to start with a non-bail question as you would probably imagine how disappointed the Committee was that you had lost the cases that you had brought on FGM. You came here brimming with enthusiasm the last time you were here, having charged two people I think, just before you appeared and we were all delighted and then you lost the case.

Alison Saunders

Yes.

Chair

Why?

Alison Saunders

The case went before a jury. Since the case was completed I have had a review of that case. I undertook that myself to see if there were lessons to be learnt, if there are things that we should have done that we did not do. Having looked at it and gone through the evidence, I still remain of the view that it was the right decision to take, to prosecute. Of course, we take those decisions on the basis of the papers that are put before us. We do not test the evidence in the same way as it is tested at court, so the jury had the advantage of hearing the evidence. Sometimes evidence does not quite come up to the proof of what was in the witness statements. They also had the advantage of hearing expert evidence both from the prosecution and the defence and hearing that tested and they came to their view, which we respect. The judge was asked three times to stop the case on the basis that there was insufficient evidence to let the case go before the jury.

Chair

By the defence?

Alison Saunders

By the defence, and three times he agreed that the case did have sufficient evidence to go before the jury.

Chair

Yes. What worries the Committee is there are six victims of FGM coming up every single day into our hospitals. I think one hospital in Birmingham has dealt with 1,500 cases in just five years. This seems to be on the increase, not on the decrease, but the CPS does not seem to be taking anyone to court. Is it because the police are just not sending you these cases?

Alison Saunders

We have had 16 cases referred to us since 2010.

Chair

It is very low, is it not?

Alison Saunders

It is very low.

Chair

Do you think the police should be doing better work in identifying these cases? The French authorities, as we have said to you before, have no problem in prosecuting people, but we seem to have a huge problem.

Alison Saunders

The French authorities have a very different system. As we talked about last time, they have a very different way of dealing with medical examinations of young girls that we do not have in this country. That provides evidence that we do not get in the same way. Also, I think they had one case where they were able to prosecute a cutter. Because they had the records they were able to also prosecute some of those that were associated with it.

Chair

Yes. This is really disappointing. Parliament is concerned. The Government keep saying we are going to prosecute more people. We had evidence from the Royal Colleges and indeed the police. The police were blaming the frontline services. The cases were not coming forward but, at the end of the day, little girls are being cut and they are not being taken to court. In respect of some of the other cases that we have heard about, especially the one we are going to on police bail, there you have other people who are the subject of so much attention by the CPS and the real perpetrators of crimes against little girls are getting off scot-free.

Alison Saunders

As I have said before, the chances of a little girl coming through the doors of a police station to report her parents is remote, but we are working with police colleagues. We have experts and single points of contact in every single CPS area. They are working with communities and their local police forces to encourage—

Chair

But you must know where this is going wrong. If there are six victims a day and you are putting all this effort and time into it and you cannot bring one case successfully to a conclusion there must be something going wrong.

Alison Saunders

We need the evidence in order to take that before the court. If we do not have the evidence we cannot take the cases. As I said, we have had 16 cases referred to us. We have three that are currently still live where we are examining them to see whether or not we can build a case, whether or not there is sufficient evidence to take it before the court. You can be assured that my prosecutors are doing as much as they possibly can when they either get cases referred to them or are helping police colleagues in order to look at what more might be done.

Chair

Thank you. Mr Winnick has a question on FGM and then we will move on to police bail.

Mr Winnick

It would be unfortunate, of course, if cases are brought that are not going to go any further and, therefore, it would be absolutely irrelevant and counterproductive to encourage you to have cases that fail. That would discredit the whole business. We know that FGM has absolutely nothing to do with the Islamic religion. There is nothing in the Koran about it. It is not necessarily confined on the African continent to Muslims and other religions as well, apparently, but is there any evidence that some of the most hard-line Islamist preachers, those who conduct sermons of sheer hate, are encouraging FGM and saying that no one should be put off in a congregation? Is there any evidence of that? I have read some reports that this is occurring.

Alison Saunders

I have not seen any evidence of that, so I am probably not the best person to answer that question.

Chair

Thank you. Let us move on to police bail. I know you were not in the room when we took evidence from Paul Gambaccini. There was no reason for you to be in the room when we took evidence from Paul Gambaccini and Kate Goold from Bindmans. This Committee is very concerned about the use of bail, which seems to be used as a kind of fishing expedition. We used his case, because he is a case study for our report. He voluntarily agreed to come in and we are most grateful to him, but there must be hundreds of other cases where people are in the same position. Do you worry about the use of police bail as a method of allowing the police to continue with their investigations and do you think there should be a more clinical approach to this where people know where a case is going? There is some criticism of the CPS. I am just looking at the dates and I think this is probably more directed to Keir Starmer, rather than yourself, because I think you took over after 20 October 2013. I may be wrong.

Alison Saunders

It was 1 November 2013.

Chair

Yes, you missed it by six days, then. He was obviously clearing his desk before you got there. You had nothing to do with this case?

Alison Saunders

I was Chief Crown Prosecutor for London which, of course, is where it was prosecuted.

Chair

So you did have something to do with it?

Alison Saunders

Yes.

Chair

You can tell us more about it since it is now in the public domain, but obviously not anything that you think is operational. He has serious criticisms because he says to us that bail was repeatedly renewed. The CPS provided no information and, at the end of the day, on 10 October he received no real explanation as to why the case was being dropped. You must, therefore, take responsibility for that as the Chief Crown Prosecutor for London.

Alison Saunders

My concern is to make sure that investigations are as short as possible for all sorts of reasons. There is the reason that you have suspects who are waiting to see whether or not they are going to be charged. You have victims and witnesses who are waiting and we all know that the quicker we can make both investigations and trials and court proceedings the better.

Chair

Yes, but you are not investigating, are you?

Alison Saunders

I was about to say that. We do not investigate. We will work with police colleagues to assist and to give investigative advice in some cases, not in all cases. It is in everybody’s interests to get it dealt with as speedily as possible, but it is also important to make sure that the investigations are thorough and that we cover all aspects and all lines of inquiry.

Chair

You are therefore familiar with this case. Did you take the decision to drop the case?

Alison Saunders

It was taken by the then Chief Crown Prosecutor for London, but I was involved because I held a case management panel on 22 September 2014, I think.

Chair

Is that when the decision was taken, 22 September?

Alison Saunders

No, it was not because I do case management panels in a number of cases where they are cases that should come to the director to look at to make sure that, first, the evidence is being dealt with properly and, secondly, we are managing the case properly. After it came to me the case then went out to a silk, a Queen’s Counsel, external counsel.

Chair

Yes, we know what a silk means.

Alison Saunders

Sorry, for advice because there were some concerns that I had raised and it then went out to this Queen’s Counsel and her written advice was provided on 3 October. We then looked at it. We had a further question for her and then we told the police on 9 October that at that point there should be no further action taken. When bail is extended it is not for the CPS to explain. It is for the police to explain.

Chair

Do you ask for bail to be extended or do they do this on their own?

Alison Saunders

In this particular case, and in many cases, what will happen is we will provide advice saying we need further material before we can come to a decision. If that necessitates an extension to police bail then that is a decision for the police, but if there bail has been in the first place I presume those reasons will continue as well.

Chair

Looking at the general, rather than the specific of Mr Gambaccini, are you able to say, “Well, we are still looking into this. We have not charged him with anything. You do not need to re-bail him. If we find more evidence we will come back and re-arrest him and charge him”? Are you able to say that or is it a decision entirely up to the police to make?

Alison Saunders

No, it is an operational matter for the police and obviously there may be some significant legal issues because if somebody has been on bail, is released on bail, there are issues about how you then re-arrest, whether you can re-arrest, and also whether you can then ask somebody to come back to be charged, arrested and for them to be charged. There are some legal issues around that, which I think is part of the responses to the Home Office consultation, that might be best clarified so that in some cases suspects can be released not on bail but still the power to go back and arrest and bring them back to charge. In other cases it will be necessary to put them on bail for all sorts of reasons: not to interfere with witnesses, not to flee.

Chair

Of course, but for someone like Mr Gambaccini, who came before this Committee and very openly and transparently gave us all his information, it must have been terrible for him. What he told the Committee is that the delay involved in the way in which the police dealt with it, and indeed the way the CPS dealt with it, added to his anguish and distress. Now, that is not supposed to be part of the criminal justice system, is it? You are there to catch people who have committed real offences, charge them and put them on trial, not to do that for the innocent.

Alison Saunders

Absolutely and for us it is about making sure and it is of no interest or value to us to draw out investigations. For us, we know the sooner we get to a point where we can either charge or not charge is the best way of dealing with it for all sorts of reasons, not least of which we know witnesses and victims may well withdraw during the course of proceedings if it takes too long. For the suspect, they need certainty as well in order to get on with their lives. For us there is absolutely no advantage in drawing out investigations.

Chair

He lost his job. He was suspended from his job. His reputation is damaged the world over and no further action is to be taken. Who owes him an apology? Is it the CPS or is it the police or is it the system that we have? Somebody surely owes an apology to an innocent man who spent a year under suspicion, who has lost everything. He has had to pay a fortune in legal fees. Who owes him that apology?

Alison Saunders

I think, looking through the chronology of this case, and I have looked through the chronology of this case, there was a lot of extra evidence that needed to be obtained and lines of inquiry to follow through. There were also some particular issues with some of the complainants that caused some further delay. There were two different complainants in this case. We looked, for example, at taking extra statements. There was at one stage consideration of a pre-trial witness interview, so there were all sorts of things that needed to be completely bottomed before a decision could be made. What would not be appropriate was for decisions to be made in haste that may be repented later either because we proceed to charge and that was too soon or we take no further action when we subsequently then get further information.

Chair

We perfectly understand that, but the system has let him down. Maybe not the CPS in particular or you, or the chief prosecutor. Somebody has clearly let him down. We live in a parliamentary democracy. We have the most impressive legal system in the world. If an innocent person has to go through this, somebody needs to say, “We got it wrong”, but apparently nobody has.

Alison Saunders

Certainly I do not think we did and I can only speak for my own organisation. I do think this was an extreme case and the majority of cases have nowhere near a pattern such as this. I think you heard from the Chief Constable previously that about 2% of all cases go beyond six months. The majority of those cases we look at that have bail periods of that sort of nature tend to be complex frauds, bribery, corruption or historic sexual allegations. It is very unusual to have a case go on quite so long.

Chair

Sure, so this is an extreme case but still you do not think you owe them an apology. Somebody needs to tell him what happened. You have given us an explanation because you are appearing before the Home Affairs Select Committee. He might never have heard this from anyone else. Surely at the end of a process, and we are looking at processes in our report, somebody needs to sit down with him and his solicitor and say, “Well, it took a year because of this”.

Alison Saunders

It may well be. Again, I do not know what happens when bail is extended, whether individuals are just told, “Your bail has been extended”, and no reason. Sometimes it would be difficult to give that reason. It may be that at the end of an extensive period it might be a very good idea to sit down and explain what had happened.

Chair

You think that would be a good idea?

Alison Saunders

It may be. It may be that we cannot explain in some cases. Again, it depends.

Chair

Of course, but are you able to sit down and explain to him and his legal advisers in this case your role in what happened now that it is over? There is no reason to stop you doing so, is there?

Alison Saunders

I am very happy to write to explain what has happened in general terms and to see what we can say about what happened in the chronology of it. There was certainly quite a lot of activity. There was certainly nobody sitting on any files and not doing anything. There was a lot of activity going on.

Chair

It is just that we had evidence that the complaint was made on 4 April and on 5 September 2013 the case was dropped for insufficient evidence. So for the whole of 2013, from 4 April to 5 September, Mr Gambaccini said there were inquiries and it was dropped. Anyway, that is very helpful.

Alison Saunders

We only got involved in 2014, so I cannot comment on that.

Chair

Of course. On the question of anonymity, would you support anonymity for those pre-charge?

Alison Saunders

We do not disclose anyone’s identity pre-charge. I think there are real issues. In a very small minority of cases what we have seen is that if suspects are named other witnesses, complainants, will come forward because they feel as though they can. They may have been frightened or feared not to be believed or judged beforehand, but in the majority of cases I can quite see why you would not.

Chair

Except for a handful of cases, you think there should be anonymity before charge?

Alison Saunders

We certainly do not disclose anyone’s identity pre-charge.

Chair

On the 28-day limit, do you think that is an acceptable limit? You said you wrote to the Home Secretary or you wrote as part of the consultation and said 28-day limits on bail were wholly inappropriate and unworkable. Do you still hold to that?

Alison Saunders

We certainly think that 28 days is too short. We think there should be the ability within the police forces to make extensions and then for it to go to the magistrates’ court first, at six months, at the Crown court at 12 months.

Michael Ellis

Director, the bail system is broken, is it not? Would you not accept that?

Alison Saunders

No, I would not accept that.

Michael Ellis

You do not accept that? Well, do you not think it is obvious that re-bails are being used indiscriminately in some cases with no proper oversight? Is it not the case nowadays that you, as the Director of Public Prosecutions, and many others in public life have to follow certain protocols and procedures? We have to explain ourselves, what we are doing and why we are doing it and we often have to operate within time limits, but the police at the moment do not have to do that. They can re-bail someone, seemingly arbitrarily, because it suits them for whatever purpose they may have, and no one knows what that purpose might be in many cases. That is a broken system. It is not transparent. It is not open to analysis and, consequently, it is manifestly unfair and needs a remedy.

Alison Saunders

I entirely agree with your comments about transparency and needing to make sure that we are transparent and that the public can have confidence in the system. That is why transparency is important. I myself have not seen many cases where I would have thought that there was endless needless re-bailing. I do think there is a lot more that we can do as a system to make sure that investigations are dealt with as quickly as possible. There are lots of things that we are doing around the trial process to make that as fast as possible.

Michael Ellis

Yes, but, assuming good faith in the vast majority of cases, then the police and the Crown Prosecution Service would have nothing to fear from being able to present a case to a bench of magistrates, a stipendiary magistrate, a district judge or some other type of judge. They have nothing to worry about then, have they? They could say, “This is the reason why we want to extend bail”.

Alison Saunders

Absolutely. In principle, there is nothing to fear from that. What there is to fear is the practicalities when the whole system is looking at taking hearings out of the process because they are costly and they take up time. We know already that we have courts that are fairly full.

Michael Ellis

Yes, but maybe it would be an incentive, Director, for them to get on with it and at least have a pretty good reason to prevent themselves being shouted at by a judge, to say, “Why are you stalling on this? Why are you taking your time?” Maybe that would then cut down the 2% of cases, which you have referred to, to 0.2% of cases and it would not cost that much and we would get fairness and justice for all.

Alison Saunders

Certainly in the cases that I have looked at, and we have looked at some of them because of this consultation, there are cases that will just not be able to be dealt with within that 28 days, even six months or even 12 months, where you have foreign enquiries, complicated forensics, various media—

Michael Ellis

I accept that. The complex cases are a caveat. I want to ask you this. Are you, the Crown Prosecution Service, conducting a witch hunt? It is being suggested by more and more people that a witch hunt is being conducted against journalists and against celebrities. I think it is my responsibility to put to you what is being said by others. We have a situation where, according to a Freedom of Information Act request from the Press Gazette, I believe, some £33 million was spent pursuing journalists to the end of September 2014. You do not have much for that, do you? You do not have much by way of successful prosecutions.

Alison Saunders

Let me first make it clear we are not conducting a witch hunt against anyone, be it journalists or celebrities. In relation to what work we do, of course, we are demand led. We do not choose what comes into us. If there is an investigation and the police feel there is sufficient evidence to refer cases to us, we look at those. That is part of our statutory duty. We have to do that and we will look at it to see whether or not there is sufficient evidence for a prosecution and whether or not it is in the public interest.

Michael Ellis

I accept that, Director, and you are not investigating the cases, but what you are doing, as you have just said, is reviewing the evidence.

Alison Saunders

Yes.

Michael Ellis

Are your officers reviewing the evidence correctly? You are getting a disproportionate number of acquittals and you are getting far too many acquittals to justify prosecuting these people, I am suggesting to you. Sixty-four journalists have apparently been arrested: 10 convictions, four jail sentences, and all of the jail sentences have been for phone hacking. The other matters do not appear to be going anywhere and that is a lot of people on bail for prolonged periods and whose reputations are sullied, names often disclosed, lives ruined, while nothing happens. Is it because of the groundswell of attention that has come on this area that you are pursuing these cases with insufficient evidence?

Alison Saunders

No, and I do not know where you get those figures from. Of course, we have had two public inquiries that have raised a whole basket of issues around how the conduct of some journalists has happened. Perhaps it is not surprising that there have then been thorough police investigations. I do know that in relation to what is termed “hacking”, which is actually a much wider term than that, charging decisions that we have made in relation to those cases that have been referred to us by the police have all been dealt with, I think, expeditiously and certainly no more than three months at the longest period. We have taken no further action against 47 people, of which 25 were journalists. We have convicted 36 people of one or all matters that they have been prosecuted for in relation to these cases, 10 of which were journalists.

Michael Ellis

Ten journalists, yes.

Alison Saunders

Yes. Two people have accepted conditional cautions; one, a journalist, has accepted a simple caution; 15 people have been acquitted of all matters, seven of those were journalists. Those are our figures in relation to these operations that are widely termed “hacking”.

Michael Ellis

There are non-journalists in your figures as well as journalists.

Alison Saunders

Yes. I have made clear which ones, yes.

Michael Ellis

Yes, of course. I accept that. A lot of money, if this information I have is correct, £33 million. Does that figure ring a bell to you?

Alison Saunders

I do not recollect—

Michael Ellis

You are aware of the Freedom of Information Act request? That is where I am getting it from.

Alison Saunders

If it has come from us then it must be right, but I do not know.

Michael Ellis

Well, it is only what I have read in the public domain. As far as juries are concerned, are you satisfied that juries are being persuaded by the evidence that your lawyers are being persuaded by?

Alison Saunders

I have given you the figures of those numbers that have been convicted—

Michael Ellis

You think that is sufficient?

Alison Saunders

—and that have gone to trial. We do not make any distinction. When we look at cases we do not make distinction as to who it is that we are looking at. What we look at is the evidence. Is there sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction and is it in the public interest then to prosecute? That test is applied across the board no matter who the individuals are.

Michael Ellis

I am glad to hear it. You say you do not pay attention to who it is, but do you pay attention to the clamour there might be from outside? Does that influence your judgment?

Alison Saunders

No.

Michael Ellis

For example, on FGM or on any other issue, does that colour the judgment, do you think, of those under you at the Crown Prosecution Service?

Alison Saunders

No, absolutely not.

Paul Flynn

We have heard about the flypaper technique of the police. I do not know if you have heard of that or you are aware of the suggestion that, in dropping names into the public domain before charge it has the effect of emboldening other people who might have been victims of a possible paedophile to come forward. If a name is put forward, others who had complaints that they had not made public for years will come forward. There is the opposite of that. If that is being used deliberately, it is a question whether it is a legitimate tactic anyway but, in those cases where someone’s name is put in, a famous name, and then virtually nobody comes forward or one person comes forward as an additional complaint, is that not a strong indication that the case is probably one that is not a serious one, which seems to be in the instance we have had today? How do you weigh up flimsy evidence from a long way ago compared to the fact that there are no additional complaints coming in?

Alison Saunders

There are quite a lot of issues there. First, just because it is one person does not mean to say it is flimsy. There may be very compelling evidence from one person. People do not come forward for all sorts of reasons. They may fear that they are not going to be believed or not going to be judged. They do not want to come forward because their lives have moved on for whatever reason. There are lots of reasons why people may not come forward. I do not recognise the dropping names as a tactic. I think I am very clear that people should only be named on charge unless there are very good operational reasons for naming them and then it should be done transparently. It is not dropping names in and there are very few cases where that would apply.

Paul Flynn

A while ago, in a different investigation about cash for peerages, there was evidence from the police very similar to what we have heard today, straight from the police manual, of their saintly dispositions and how they behave always in a perfectly proper way. In those cases, the witnesses were all aware that they were about to be arrested by the fact of the clattering of stepladders as the press arrived at 6 o’clock in the morning. In that case, nobody was ever charged but, again, reputations were destroyed because of the fact that the evidence could have come only from the police. Are you aware of a new trend among the police to seek publicity for its own sake?

Alison Saunders

No.

Paul Flynn

You do not think that in the case of Cliff Richard, again one complaint going back many years ago—

Chair

Mr Flynn, order—

Paul Flynn

No, I think it is appropriate. We are seeing the police seeking publicity. Are you aware of that case where a BBC helicopter was called up—

Alison Saunders

I am only aware of it from what has been seen on TV, I am afraid. I do not know—

Chair

You are not involved in that case anyway, are you?

Paul Flynn

As far as the prosecution is concerned, you said it is quite possible that one complaint could be a very serious one. In retrospect, when you look at the complaints and find that they are not complaints that—this one collapsed, the Gambaccini one, after a long period of anguish for Mr Gambaccini. If there was no substance in the complaint a year after it was made, surely there was no substance in the complaint a week after it was made. Shouldn’t it have been dropped?

Alison Saunders

Again, it depends. Have the investigations been thorough at the beginning? Does there need to be further lines of enquiry, which may go to not just proving that there is enough evidence but may go to proving that there is not? Quite often the lines of enquiry that will be continued to be investigated will come about as a result of interviews with suspects or come about because of things that have been discovered during the course of the investigation. We do not live in a world where everything lands in either our laps or the police’s lap at the first opportunity, unfortunately, and sometimes it does mean that there is a process, which is to look at whether or not the evidence will stand up in court or whether it will not. It is right that that process takes place. What we need to do is work with police colleagues to make sure that happens as quickly as possible.

Paul Flynn

Should there not be a disincentive against you and the police for dragging out frivolous complaints for long periods? Should there not be compensation paid to the victims of these complaints whose reputations have been ruined by them?

Alison Saunders

I do not think we do that. It is not in our interests or in anybody else’s interest to draw out what you might term frivolous complaints. If we have a complaint that we think needs to be thoroughly looked at and the police agree that it needs to be further investigated, then that is what should happen. Both for complainants and for suspects it is important that we deal with these cases properly and investigate them properly and make a decision.

Paul Flynn

Isn’t it true that at least half of the complaints against these high-profile celebrities in the world of show business have been found to be empty complaints and nothing was proved true? Obviously, there are the famous cases where people were guilty, but others where they were not.

Alison Saunders

No. Again, if you look at what is termed the Operation Yewtree decisions, we made 11 decisions after Operation Yewtree and six of those decisions were made one month after we received the full file. Of those, out of the 11, five were charged with offences; six suspects were no further actioned. Of the five persons charged, four were convicted of at least one offence and one committed suicide before he could stand trial.

Paul Flynn

Those are the total whose names were put in the public domain, were they?

Alison Saunders

That is Operation Yewtree.

Yasmin Qureshi

Can I ask some questions? The discussion is about police bail. Just to clarify, as you said, Ms Saunders, the Crown Prosecution Service gets a file from the police asking them to look at the question of whether there should be any charges and what those charges should be and then they bail the person to a specific date. Then the prosecutor will write back saying, “We need such and such information to prove such and such”. Thereafter, how long the person is then bailed back for or not is a police decision, isn’t it?

Alison Saunders

Yes, it is.

Yasmin Qureshi

You, as the Prosecution Service, would never get involved in telling the police whether to bail them for two weeks, five weeks, six weeks or eight weeks, would you? No prosecutor would?

Alison Saunders

No, because we ask for particular evidence to be found or to be investigated and obviously it is the police who will know how long that will take. I presume that will dictate how long the bail will be, but it is police bail. It is not CPS bail.

Yasmin Qureshi

That is right. Then the next involvement the prosecutor will have is when the police send the information back that has been requested. The prosecutor will have a look at the case again and see whether there is enough evidence. Then, if there is not, they will send it back to the police saying, “Can we have some more evidence?”

Alison Saunders

That may happen. Obviously, we have been concerned to make sure that our charging decisions are made as quickly as possible when cases come to us for advice and that depends on the type of case. If it comes to our CPS Direct, which is our 24/7 telephone charging place, we make decisions there in less than an hour on whether or not to charge. In the majority of cases, the average is 8.8 days whether we make charges.

Chair

Ms Qureshi was a prosecutor before she joined Parliament.

Alison Saunders

Yes, I do know.

Mr Winnick

The previous question about celebrities and journalists, just remind me: wasn’t it, in fact, celebrities who were very keen for action to be taken of journalists who were phone hacking or very senior journalists who gave orders for phone hacking?

Alison Saunders

I think there have been lots of people who have called for action. As I said, we will look at the cases that come to us and decide on the evidence.

Mr Winnick

Yes. Wasn’t there criticism previously that prosecutions had not taken place against journalists responsible or allegedly responsible for phone hacking?

Alison Saunders

We are quite often criticised on the one hand for not taking action while being criticised for taking action on the other.

Mr Winnick

Yes, I very much thought so. Bearing in mind the Leveson inquiry and the rest, I was somewhat surprised, but be that as it may. As I said to Mr Gambaccini when he was speaking and giving evidence, the whole emphasis, as you know, and no one better than you in your job, is that those responsible or allegedly responsible for child abuse going back many years, apart from what has been happening in very recent times, should be facing justice and that is absolutely right. He has a record, as he explained to us, of being an advocate that that should happen. When someone is interrogated by the police over a period of time, as in his case and the rest of it, and there is no evidence against him, clearly innocent, what should have then happened? Should there not be, arising from what the Chair has already stated, some formal apology? Does a letter go to the person along these lines?

Alison Saunders

When we take no further action in cases, and there are many cases that are referred to us for charging advice where we do not take any further action, we will tell the police and the police communicate that to the individual concerned. It is a matter for the police then as to exactly what is said to that individual about why that decision has been made.

Mr Winnick

Can I put this to you, Ms Saunders? If you went through the nightmare of the person who has given evidence to us today and suffered the indignities and the humiliations, if you are innocent as he was—that does not seem to be in doubt—would you be satisfied with what you have just told me?

Alison Saunders

I am sure I would feel very similar to how Mr Gambaccini has told you he feels. I think it is important for all sorts of reasons, both for those who are suspected of offences and those who make complaints, that they are thoroughly investigated and that we look at all avenues to make sure we have considered every line of enquiry.

Mr Winnick

Of course they should be thoroughly investigated and you would be in for very sharp criticism, you and your colleagues and the police, if these allegations were not investigated.

Alison Saunders

Absolutely.

Mr Winnick

That is not in doubt. What is in doubt, of course, is the long, drawn-out process. If at the end of the day the person concerned is found that he, or she in other cases, was in no way involved in these allegations, is it simply a matter of leaving it to the police and saying, “We are satisfied you were not involved”? Should there not be a formal apology?

Alison Saunders

Of course, our test is whether or not there is a realistic prospect of conviction. We are not determining guilt or innocence. We are determining whether or not there is a realistic prospect of conviction to take a case before a court. In cases where we have decided to take no further action, we have decided there is not sufficient evidence to take a case before the court, but we are not determining somebody’s guilt or innocence.

Mr Winnick

If I may say so, that is even worse because it hangs over the person. The person has been a subject of allegations that turn out to be false. The police agree with that and the rest of it. At the end of the day, the person is not really cleared, even though he has not been charged. It hangs over the person because it could be said, as you said, that the evidence was insufficient.

Alison Saunders

Absolutely. You are not guilty until you are found guilty by a court. That is completely fundamental, but I am just saying that is our test and that is what we are applying.

Mr Winnick

Would you be satisfied yourself if allegations, totally false it goes without saying, were made against you, a long, drawn-out process and the rest, and that at the end of the day the conclusion is along the lines you have stated? Would you say then, “I am not being charged, I am fine and that is it”? Would you be satisfied?

Alison Saunders

I find it difficult to put myself in that position and I am sure I would probably feel very similar, but I do not know.

Chair

That means you would not be satisfied?

Alison Saunders

I do not know how I would feel is the question. I think it is very difficult to put yourself into somebody else’s position when you have not experienced that yourself.

Chair

With the greatest respect to Mr Winnick, what he is saying is if it was you rather than Mr Gambaccini who was having to wait a whole year to hear that you were innocent of any charges.

Alison Saunders

I would certainly not want to wait a whole year.

Chair

No, exactly. That is the point Mr Winnick is trying to make.

Alison Saunders

Sorry, and, as I have made clear, we need to make sure that we progress investigations and make decisions as quickly as we can.

Chair

Exactly.

Mr Winnick

If I was innocent of the allegations and it was found that was so, I certainly would not be satisfied. Can I just put it to you, Ms Saunders, we must have justice? We must try, obviously, to make sure that those who are guilty of these terrible offences against children are brought to justice. So many were not, including the wretched Savile. However, as in this case, surely a balance must be struck as far as justice is concerned. If a person is innocent, there must be some way of showing that formally.

Alison Saunders

I agree entirely that justice has to be done and that is what we are about. It is about making sure that we conduct thorough investigations and prosecutions.

Chair

Indeed, but I think the Committee is of a different view. This is the statement you put out on 10 October. Even though Mr Gambaccini was in every newspaper in the country and all over the world when he was subject to these investigations, you said, “The men, aged 65 and 75”, I assume Mr Gambaccini is the first of the men, aged 65, “were arrested on 29 October 2013 over allegations of sexual offences said to have taken place over a two-year period”. The statement then goes on to say all the allegations were considered on their merits and there was no realistic prospect of conviction and then goes on to say, “The complainants have been informed and we will be writing to them to more fully explain our decision and offer a meeting should they wish to discuss the matter in more detail”. I put it to you that you should have a meeting with them and explain and you said you would write to them. Has that meeting taken place?

Alison Saunders

Sorry, that is the meeting with the complainants. I do not know if they have asked to have a meeting or not.

Chair

No, that is the complainants, but what I think is very odd is that you should offer a meeting with the complainants, who have made this complaint that you have not sustained and taken a whole year to consider, and you have not offered a meeting with the person whose reputation has been basically trashed over a 12-month period. Don’t you think that is a bit of double standards?

Alison Saunders

We do not. We will write to the complainants. Our processes are and have always been that we write—

Chair

No, but do you think you should? If you are offering a meeting to explain why a prosecution will not go ahead—

Alison Saunders

No.

Chair

—you do not think that you should offer any explanation to the person who has been waiting for 12 months?

Alison Saunders

We have given an explanation that we found that there was no realistic prospect of conviction.

Chair

In this statement.

Alison Saunders

That decision was communicated to the police. We do not put statements out like that until we are sure that not only have we told the police—

Chair

But it is a CPS statement on Paul Gambaccini. You are telling me that this is not a public statement?

Alison Saunders

No, I am telling you that we put those statements out once we are sure and we have been satisfied that the police know what the decision is, they have had the time to tell the suspect and also that the complainants have been told. For all the reasons that you were articulating earlier on, it would not be right for people to learn of that sort of thing in the newspaper. If we are putting statements out, we have quite a long-agreed process with police colleagues to make sure that those involved know of the decision before the statements are released.

Chair

In a case like this where you find there is no realistic prospect of conviction and Mr Gambaccini came before a parliamentary committee and said that these complaints were fictitious, what action might you take against the complainant?

Alison Saunders

In a hypothetical case, if—

Chair

This is a real case.

Alison Saunders

I cannot talk about this case.

Chair

Okay, in a hypothetical case.

Alison Saunders

In a hypothetical case, if there were evidence that complaints were false, and that is again quite a high test, if there was an investigation by the police and the police found that the complaints were fictitious, there could be a prosecution for perverting the course of justice.

Chair

Indeed, and who would initiate—

Mr Winnick

If I may, Chair, with permission, if in those circumstances it happened, would that then lead to the person concerned getting a formal apology?

Alison Saunders

We prosecute those cases. I do not know whether we have given formal apologies or not. I do not think we have. We quite often get criticised for taking those cases as well. We did a research project in 2013, somewhere around there—

Chair

Would you write to us as Mr Winnick has asked?

Alison Saunders

Yes, I would.

Mr Winnick

Not a question of the evidence being insufficient but if a person is innocent, as innocent as you or myself, of this particular matter, on that basis let us say, how does a person clear themselves to such an extent where people will not say, “The evidence was not sufficient; no wonder they did not take the case to court”?

Alison Saunders

They are clear because there is no action. They have not been taken to court. They have not been found guilty.

Chair

No, that is not the point Mr Winnick is making. Your statement says there is no realistic prospect of conviction. Mr Winnick is making the point and Mr Gambaccini made the point to us that this complaint was fictitious. How do you clear your name? Do you wave about this statement saying there was no realistic prospect of conviction or do you get a letter saying, “Sorry, we got it wrong”?

Alison Saunders

There is nothing wrong about what has happened. That is the process where it is looking at a complaint that has been made, investigating it thoroughly and then deciding whether or not to take any action. That is our position.

Chair

Right, I understand. We will have to make our own recommendations. A very small point from Mr Flynn and then we have to release you. I am sure you have other things to do.

Paul Flynn

What weight do you give to the possibility that complainants might be induced by the possibility of financial gain? We are told that the website that invites complaints gives a list of the compensations that are available to potential complainants. Does it also contain a warning of the penalties that would come from making false accusations?

Alison Saunders

I am not aware of the website you are referring to. We are very careful to make sure and that is part of the police investigation to find out if any of the complainants have received any financial incentives or if they have asked for any compensation or taken out civil action. We do ask that when we are looking at these cases.

Paul Flynn

Shouldn’t you be aware of it, that this is being advertised that you will get compensation under X, Y and Z? This is something that surely should be a factor when you decide whether a complaint is a serious one or not.

Alison Saunders

We ask the police to find out if there has been anything like that so that, first, we know but, secondly, if we do decide to proceed—because complainants may quite rightly, if they are telling the truth, also seek compensation—we will disclose that to the defence. It is important that that is transparent.

Chair

In answer to what Mr Winnick has asked, I think it would be very helpful if you could let us know how many times the Crown Prosecution Service has ever apologised to anyone for any mistakes.

Alison Saunders

What I can also let you know is the outcome of our research, which showed that false allegations were extremely rare, and the numbers that we prosecuted. I think over a 17-month period we prosecuted 35 out of 8,500 cases we prosecuted for rape.

Chair

That would be very helpful, thank you. Ms Qureshi promises me she will be 30 seconds. I hope she is.

Yasmin Qureshi

Okay. Well, can I have just a bit of indulgence?

Mr Winnick

She is a lawyer.

Yasmin Qureshi

Yes, I am lawyer. Yes, I know. I think perhaps there is a little bit of misunderstanding here. As I understand from the custom and practice of the Crown Prosecution Service historically and until now, with all the codes of guidelines for prosecutors, Crown Prosecution never write to alleged defendants or people who are potential defendants or have been defendants. Their obligation has always been to write to the complainant, whether it is right or wrong.

Alison Saunders

Yes.

Yasmin Qureshi

Therefore, unless everybody wants to change the rules and change the guidelines and have fresh guidelines, in which case people against whom allegations have been made should be written to, then that is a new process that needs to be brought into place.

Alison Saunders

Yes, absolutely. Sorry, I thought I had made that clear. I obviously had not. We do not do that. The police indicate to a suspect whether or not they are going to be charged or not and we do not. We look at whether or not there is a realistic prospect of conviction to take before the court. We do not find anything other than that.

Chair

We understand. The Committee will deliberate on some of these matters and make recommendations in our report. Could you let us have that research by Friday?

Alison Saunders

Yes, certainly, we will.

Chair

As this is the last time you will be appearing before the Committee, can I thank you very much for the way in which you have dealt with this Committee? Whenever we have asked for information, whenever we have asked you to come and give evidence, you have readily agreed to do so and always given evidence in an open and transparent way. We are extremely grateful to you for the letters that you have sent us and the information you provide. Thank you very much.

Alison Saunders

Thank you very much.

Chair

That concludes the proceedings. Police bail, HC 962 6