Oral evidence: HM Government support for UK Victims of IRA attacks that used Gaddafi-supplied Semtex and weapons, HC 406Wednesday 9 September 2015
Oral evidence, 9 September 2015.
Witnesses
Jonathan Ganesh, Docklands Victims Association, William Frazer and Barrie Halliday, Families Acting for Innocent Relatives, gave evidence.
Chair
Thank you very much. Gentlemen, you are very welcome. Thank you very much for joining us. You have seen the time constraints that we are under, so perhaps if I could, again, ask for brief questions and brief answers. I wonder whether, quickly, you would like to introduce yourselves and the organisations you represent, and the reasons for your involvement. Mr Frazer, would you like to start?
William Frazer
William Frazer, spokesperson for Families Acting for Innocent Relatives, and also Families Research and Policy Unit. I am the chairman of it; I have been involved from the word go with this Libyan case.
Jonathan Ganesh
My name is Jonathan Ganesh. I am the president of the Docklands Victims Association, commonly known as the DVA. We work with victims of all terrorist violence, and we do international humanitarian work.
Barrie Halliday
Mr Barrie Halliday, former UDR soldier, a farmer in south Armagh. I work with William, and my full‑time job is looking for justice for victims.
Chair
I wonder if you could perhaps give us a little bit of background to your involvement: why do we have the groups? What has happened? What is the history? It is quite harrowing, I know, but I wonder if you could perhaps give us a flavour of it, please?
William Frazer
I will try to be as quick as I can. I first met the legal team back in 1999. They were involved in a case in south Armagh to do with a senior terrorist, and that was how I came upon the legal team. We helped out with a bit of local knowledge. During our discussions, one of the things that we discussed was about holding terrorists accountable. Out of that came the idea of what we called “lawfare”. Victims working together all around the world, we thought, would be a good idea to counter terrorism. Terrorism is all about creating fear, and what better way to counteract that than the victims coming together to counter what the terrorists were trying to do? That is how this first started. Then the legal team came back and said, “Listen, we can actually take a legal action here, in the United States”. That is how it started off, and that is how we went about it. The whole idea behind that was that we had to get a number of people on the writ to get it kicked off, but we needed to find Americans to take that action, which was very hard to do, believe it or not. It took several months to track down an American to take that case, and it basically snowballed from there. That is how long we have been working on it; 1999 was the first conversation about it.
Chair
We can perhaps explore where you would like to go from here, but the background is that you represent people who have been bereaved or injured by attacks which appear to have been funded or helped through Libyan involvement. That is the background, is it, to your groups?
William Frazer
The background of the group is that they have all been affected by Libyan arms or explosives. Also, what has been overlooked here is the fact that Libya not only supplied the Semtex; it supplied the technology and how to use it, which was then passed on. Numerous people went from Northern Ireland to get trained in Libya. That fact has been overlooked. This stuff is no good unless you have got the technology and know how to use it. These people were taken to Libya and trained. One of the questions asked there was about Libya, and their involvement in giving these weapons over. It is not just about the weapons; it is about what went with it. Millions of pounds also came to the IRA. The technology and intelligence that they gave to the IRA was just unbelievable. They created one of the most ruthless terrorist machines around the world, and then every other country that was affected by terrorism to do with Libya held Libya to account, except for United Kingdom citizens, who suffered not one act of terrorism but several hundred acts of terrorism. We are completely ignored. The whole reason this took place in the first place has been ignored, as well. I am not saying that we were against the actions of our Government, but Gaddafi made it quite clear that he did what he did because of the actions of the British Government. We suffered for those actions, but we were prepared to suffer to support our Government; however, our Government in turn did not support us when we went through the suffering.
Chair
Mr Ganesh, would you like to add to that?
Jonathan Ganesh
From the DVA’s point of view, it is very important that we do not forget the victims here. Gaddafi’s Semtex affected countless people. We have members in Northern Ireland; I have been to Northern Ireland many, many times. I have been to Manchester; I have met victims all over the United Kingdom, and even in the Republic of Ireland as well. These people desperately need help. These people are fighting, actually, for themselves. There is a lady in my community, Gemma Berezag. Her husband was working as a cleaner in the Midland Bank. The man is very seriously ill. I believe her family have submitted evidence to the Committee, and I welcome that. He is in a nappy; he is brain‑damaged; he cannot see. I saw him last week; he cannot remember me. I knew him before the bomb and after the bomb. He is not an isolated victim. There are countless people in Northern Ireland, Manchester, and Warrington who have lost children; there are people with horrific injuries, and these people have been basically told by the Government, “You will fight and campaign for yourselves”. We are not the most skilful people; we are not experts in certain fields, but we have made progress. We have been helped by parliamentarians and experts, who have never charged us any money whatsoever. They care about our cause. Parliamentarians from all different political creeds have come to help us, including a former Foreign Secretary, who once actually spent five hours before he had to catch a plane writing a report for me to give to the Foreign Office. These parliamentarians, from all different political creeds, have come on board on this. You cannot say, “Well, you are an American citizen; you will get help.” Poor Gemma Berezag was looking forward to buying a new wheelchair for her husband. She has a wheelchair at the moment—that is true—but she was hoping to buy a more advanced wheelchair, and she was hoping that her husband would be recognised. This goes for the people in Northern Ireland. I met a man in a wheelchair there, and his wife was hoping that he would be recognised. It is fundamentally wrong to say, “We are going to help you, but we are not going to help you”. This is not right. This is fundamental to the principles of society—equality. It would be a terrible injustice. We have campaigned for over a decade at our own expense. We do not receive any government funding. I have met the Libyan ambassador; I have engaged with the Libyans on this matter, and they have tremendous sympathy. I am sorry to say this: it appears we have got more sympathy from the Libyan ambassador and the Libyan people than our own Government. I am sorry to say that; I do not like being critical of people, but I have to say what I believe in my heart to be true.
Chair
Thank you. That is useful.
Gavin Robinson
Thank you, particularly, for the personal comments that you made. I greatly appreciate the three of you being here. I think it is important not only that we get a true sense of how you are affected as victims from a personal perspective, but also that you get a true sense that we, as individuals and as parliamentarians, want to make sure you get our support, and that you feel our support. I think Mr McCue—you heard his evidence—was suggesting that Government has let victims down, but, more than that, de‑prioritised you whenever they were engaged in discussions. From my perspective, the Government are here to protect their citizens, and so as individual victims—whether as a serviceman victim, from a mainland perspective, or, William, not only as a victim yourself but as a representative of them, could you indicate to us just how that makes you feel, and how let down you are by successive Governments by not being a priority when it comes to Libyan compensation?
William Frazer
Hopefully, this will give you some sense of where we are coming from. I have lost five of my own family: my father, a couple of uncles, and a couple of cousins. I have had my house destroyed five times by no-warning bombs. I have been shot at. I have been in rocket attacks and mortar attacks. I have had other members of my family injured. I never put my name on this writ. I am more than entitled to do it, but what was more important to me was a recognition that our Government addressed the problem of justice. What are the British Government all about? What is democracy about? Is it not about looking after your citizens? Now, I have been to America; as a matter of fact, we have been all over the world, and we have met with the Libyan victims numerous times, and the comparison is unbelievable. However, the one thing I would like to say is that I have been to the States three times, and I met a number of Senators and Congressmen who had far more sympathy for us than our own Government. I do not mean individual members, like yourselves, but our own Government. Frank Lautenberg, who was a Senator, met with us. He sat down, and he said, “Willie”—this is just how he spoke to me; I suppose he had met me, and he realised I called a spade a spade, so he did the same—“we are not your problem. Tony Blair is your problem. Your Government is betraying you. You need to go back and lobby your own Government. I fully support what you are saying.” He had a number of photographs of soldiers who had been killed in the Iraq war outside his office. The conversation came around to that, because I had family serving out there as well. He said, “I do this job because of people like those there, and because of my citizens. I support the action that our Government have taken, but your Government are not supporting you, Willie. A deal was done in the tent.” Now, obviously, I am only a layperson. When he talked about the tent, I was wondering what sort of tent he was talking about. At that time, I did not know that Gaddafi had this big tent, so it took a second for it to click. But he said, “A deal was done in the tent between Mr Blair and the Libyans. Willie, you need to go back and get your Government to sort that out.” That was a Senator on the Hill that took time out to meet us, and our own people here would not respond to our letter—Mr Blair and others. It was only out of embarrassment, I believe, that Mr Brown did what he did. I do appreciate what he did, and so do the victims, but we went to the Foreign Office, and I know when we have been sold a pup. Jon here was sitting there. We did a link‑up with that ambassador. What do you call him?
Jonathan Ganesh
Sir Vincent Fean.
William Frazer
He was mentioned earlier. I said, “We have been sold a pup”, on that link‑up. You might have been there.
Chair
I was with you, Mr Frazer, yes.
William Frazer
I think “Hold on, Cochise”, were the words I said to him. I may not be that intelligent, but I am a very good judge of character when it comes to right and wrong. I knew something was not right, and it turned out to be the fact. They did nothing for us. There is nothing there whatsoever for the victims of the United Kingdom—never mind Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom—who suffered badly. It is because of people like Tony Blair, who have let us down and betrayed us in the name of peace. There will never be a proper peace in Northern Ireland until we have justice, and this is one way that I see of bringing justice and closure to the victims of Northern Ireland.
Gavin Robinson
When is the last time that any of you had contact with central Government on this issue? When is the last time somebody from central Government picked up the phone and said, “Here is where things sit. We are still interested in your position; we want to support you”? When is the last time you had contact from the UK national Government—from the FCO or from the Cabinet Office?
Barrie Halliday
Only whenever we threaten to go to Libya. That is the only time we get a response.
Gavin Robinson
When was that, if you do not mind me asking?
Barrie Halliday
It is probably two years since I heard from them.
Jonathan Ganesh
I continue to make phone calls to the Foreign Office. To be sincere, I think they are reorganising some sort of structure, because the staff that I knew previously have moved on. I was sad that they did not tell me that, actually. The staff that we were engaging with in the Foreign Office actually moved on. I understand there is some sort of reorganisation now of permanent staff members in the Libyan Reconciliation Unit.
Kate Hoey
Does this unit that you are talking about give you any help? Clearly, it is there as a token, almost, but what would be your recommendation for that unit?
Jonathan Ganesh
To be sincere, the unit is flawed, and I am sorry to say that. It hurts me to say that, but it is fundamentally flawed. When we managed to secure a meeting with the Libyans—and this took tremendous resources from our own organisation—we asked for an Arabic speaker to be brought along with us. Can you imagine that we had to go to Gemma Berezag, the wife of the husband I mentioned, who just happens to speak Arabic? She is a fluent Arabic speaker. We brought her with us to help us communicate with the Libyans.
Kate Hoey
Because nobody would help from the Foreign Office?
Jonathan Ganesh
I said, “We desperately need an interpreter. We desperately need some documents translated into Arabic. We simply do not have the money to do that, but you in the Foreign Office have those resources. You simply do.” They said, “Sorry, Jonathan, we cannot help you. We cannot single out your group for help more than anybody else.” We were not asking for that; we are trying to include everybody in this situation. We are trying to get help for everybody. When we engage with the Libyans, we do not just talk about our victims; we do talk about them, but we also want to make sure everyone is included. They were saying, “You are a private campaign, and you have to supply the resources yourself”. That is when we approached experts from the Open University; a former Foreign Secretary, and we either ring them up or write them a letter. The vast majority of people we wrote to and asked for help have helped us, from all political parties and all political creeds. They do not charge us any money; they do it absolutely for free, and that is really touching. The Foreign Office does have those resources, but it is fundamentally flawed. We are going to engage with the Libyans, but we need the Foreign Office, really, to come along with us and give us Government support. Gemma did a really good job when she was talking to the Libyans, but she actually broke down in tears and asked the ambassador to help everybody.
Lady Hermon
Your evidence is very powerful; it is really very upsetting, as well. Personally, I think it is amazing you are still standing; that is meant as a compliment, and it is a compliment. I remember, Willie, you coming campaigning—uninvited, I have to say—to Leeds Castle, and that was a very striking demonstration of your commitment to the people that you represent, and to all of the victims, not just those in Northern Ireland but throughout the United Kingdom. Did you ever get a chance to meet Tony Blair to put the points that you have made to us today? Have you ever had a personal meeting with Tony Blair?
William Frazer
No. He did not even respond to correspondence.
Lady Hermon
Did you ask for a meeting with him?
William Frazer
Yes, numerous times.
Lady Hermon
We have a new Prime Minister. We have a British Prime Minister with a Tory Government at the present time, with a small majority, but, to everybody’s surprise—including probably his—he is now the Prime Minister. Have you sought a meeting with the current Prime Minister, David Cameron?
William Frazer
We have written and asked for a meeting, but, as yet, we have had no response.
Lady Hermon
When did you write?
William Frazer
Off the top of my head, it was at least six months ago.
Lady Hermon
Do you mean after 7 May?
William Frazer
Yes.
Lady Hermon
Jonathan, when William writes, do you write on behalf of all of the group that, in fact, collectively, you have asked for a meeting with the Prime Minister?
Jonathan Ganesh
Lady Hermon, when we delivered our petition to Downing Street, I think in 2012, we did it collectively for the victims of Gaddafi Semtex in Northern Ireland, as opposed to mainland. We tend to work very constructively together.
William Frazer
Just on that point about Mr Cameron—
Lady Hermon
Yes, I really need to know what has happened since the general election, when we have now David Cameron as Prime Minister.
William Frazer
Before he was elected as Prime Minister, I actually met him in Ballymena. I raised the issue of victims with him, and he promised me he would do all he could.
Lady Hermon
David Cameron promised you in Ballymena that he would do all for the victims.
William Frazer
Yes, because I actually said, “When you are Prime Minister”. He said, “Oh, you are very sure.” I said, “Yes, well, I believe you will be.” Unfortunately maybe, I was correct, because he does not seem to have come back.
Lady Hermon
Have you even had an acknowledgement of your request for a meeting?
William Frazer
There may have been a letter that came back: “We acknowledge the fact we have received your correspondence”, but that is it.
Lady Hermon
Bearing in mind what he has said to you on a previous occasion, what are your expectations now of a Conservative Government in Downing Street—standing up for victims, presumably, for the United Kingdom?
William Frazer
I would like to see that happening, because it is not simply about standing up for victims; it is about standing up for society. If you forget about the people who have suffered in your society, what sort of message does that send, especially to terrorist organisations around the world? “Come and blow up the people in the mainland, because nobody cares about them.” I know that is a bit cynical, but that is really what is happening here in the United Kingdom, because this Government is not prepared to stand up for the people who suffered. If you go to America and you carry out acts, people are looked after. Go to Spain; the policy they have for victims is unbelievable, and the same in Israel. The only country that lets its people down is the United Kingdom, unfortunately. I think Mr Cameron needs to take a serious look at what is going on here. As to Mr Blair in the past—I know we are on Mr Cameron—I was told by Senator Lautenberg that there were deals being done with oil companies and other things in the tent. Now, I had no idea; it was way out of my league, but he told me that those things were going on. This is why we needed to go back and lobby our own Government.
Lady Hermon
Did you follow through on that advice to meet the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers? Have you requested a meeting with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State?
William Frazer
Yes.
Lady Hermon
Have you been more successful with our Secretary of State?
William Frazer
No, not on that issue. We have met on other issues, but not on that issue.
Mr Nigel Evans
Why have you not met on that issue?
William Frazer
I would need to ask the Secretary of State, Nigel. There seems to be an unwillingness. I suppose, to be truthful—I always believe in the truth—they are concerned that this will affect the peace process in Northern Ireland, but I believe they are very naive and they do not understand Northern Ireland, or, indeed, the rest of the United Kingdom, because this can actually bring closure to the peace process in Northern Ireland. This can bring justice for everybody in Northern Ireland that has been affected by terrorism. Instead of looking after the terrorists, they should look after the people who have suffered, because then they could turn around and say, “Now it is time to move on. We have dealt with the people who have suffered,” but there is an unwillingness there. I think the IRA are afraid. The British Government said they have been satisfied with the information they have in relation to Libya. If that is the case, why have they not arrested people? Why have they not arrested the people who set up the biggest arms deals of a terrorist organisation anywhere in the Western world? They had the names and details of them, and they have not done that because it would affect the peace process. So be it, but then do not turn around and say to the people who suffered at the hands of that, “Go away, please. Do not annoy us.” They have to look after both.
Danny Kinahan
We have very much touched on this. When we spoke beforehand, you talked of justice being most important, and yet, to get an absolute grasp of what you want for justice, it is not just sympathy; it is not just an apology; it is the setting‑up of a Government unit that actually takes action. That is one end of it. Is the other end of it, as you were just touching on, actually finding the people who were responsible for setting it up and working it through, and trying to take them to court?
William Frazer
In the real world, we would like to see everybody in court, but, being truthful again—and sometimes I put my foot in it, but I believe truth is the best policy—that probably is never going to happen. They asked us to give up the campaign for that, without giving some sort of recognition that people have come through that and addressing the needs of the likes of this lady here, all the people who are in wheelchairs, people who need 24‑hour constant attendance. To say to them, “Please go away and suffer in silence”, that will not happen. There needs to be a special unit set up to compensate and deal with these problems, and not something that the Government come up with but something that the victims themselves come up with, because nobody knows any better how to deal with victimhood than the victims themselves.
Oliver Colvile
First of all, thank you very much indeed for coming to see us. It is very good to see you again, Mr Frazer, and thank you for coming back. I have some questions. First of all, how much money is this fund worth—the fund that is frozen and under control of the British?
William Frazer
The funds frozen here?
Oliver Colvile
Yes.
William Frazer
There are numerous figures floating about. There is billions; there is £900 million; there is £12 billion; there is £20 billion; there is £30 billion. The only people that can truly answer that are our own Government.
Oliver Colvile
What we need to do, then, is to put down a parliamentary question to ask the Government as to how much money is in this fund—yes?
William Frazer
Yes. That would be a good start.
Oliver Colvile
Right. The second question I have for you is: was Semtex used both in the Harrods bombing and also in the Brighton bombing as well, and did this Semtex come from Libya in the first place? I have to tell you, I was in both of those bombings as well, so I have a personal interest in this issue.
William Frazer
Well then, you understand.
Oliver Colvile
Thirdly, what is the reason that the Government are giving for not releasing the money in order to help the victims?
William Frazer
They are not actually giving a reason. They are blaming everybody else.
Oliver Colvile
Then we need to put down a parliamentary question asking that question as well: why it is they are not releasing the money in order to help the victims—yes?
William Frazer
Can I just say on that that our Government are shying away from what needs to be done? We have met with the Libyan victims themselves, who are sympathetic to our cause, even though they have suffered greatly themselves at the hands of Gaddafi. There is a relationship that can be built up there, not only within the UK but internationally. We could actually set a template to help counter terrorism around the world, if some of our people would get off their backsides and take this thing seriously. I do not mean yourselves, with the greatest respect.
Kate Hoey
We talked earlier about whether it was, as Lady Hermon asked, incompetence or deliberate. In how much of this do you think there is really a feeling that, if we get too far and too deep into this, it might implicate people who are in Government in Northern Ireland?
William Frazer
I would say that is one of the major problems. Tony Blair was involved heavily with the process in Northern Ireland. We know that there were lies told about a lot of things that happened in Northern Ireland in relation to the process. We believe, in relation to Libya and Tony Blair’s dealing with oil companies now, that lies have been told. Now, we are never going to rectify all the wrongs or all the lies, but, if we make a start now, we can send a clear message. We will never right all the wrongs that have been done, and we all have our different views on the peace process in Northern Ireland, but I believe there is an opportunity here now, if we help the people who have suffered.
Mr David Anderson
I would ask Jonathan, in terms of practicalities, you mentioned the gentleman in the wheelchair. Is there any recognition of people like that gentleman and others, when you are dealing with Government agencies, that you are in that situation because you are victims of these sorts of attacks, or are you treated as if it was an inherited disease or you had an accident at work? I hate to use the term “special treatment”, but I actually think you deserve special treatment. Is that recognised or not?
Jonathan Ganesh
I personally do not think it really is, myself. I do not think it really is, actually. I do not think it really is. I do not.
Mr David Anderson
I think it should be. There is the bigger picture still in this, but there are the day‑to‑day lives of ordinary people that perhaps we can take advice on and see if we can move some things on that.
William Frazer
Could I just seize on what you were saying there? This is also part of what we believe can help bring closure: the bigger picture, the things that you have been mentioning there, where you can help not only the people on the writ and the other victims, but the likes of people in wheelchairs. A package could be put together to help the whole victim sector right across the United Kingdom, which then could be wheeled out in other parts of the world, because the similarities are unbelievable. We have been in Colombia, in America, in Israel, in Spain, and we all get on great. What is bringing these victims all together, and why do we get on so well together? It is what they have come through; it is what they have suffered. You have an opportunity here, but you do need to get Mr Blair in front of you; you do need to get this ambassador in front of you; and you do need to get to the bottom of what went wrong.
Chair
It has been very, very useful and valuable to us. Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Jonathan Ganesh
Can I just thank the Committee today for giving the victims a voice? On behalf of the victims, we really appreciate that.
Chair
Thank you very much. Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses
Kenny Donaldson and Aileen Quinton, Innocent Victims United, gave evidence.
Chair
Mr Donaldson, Ms Quinton, thank you very much for joining us. Perhaps I could start with you as well by just asking you to briefly introduce yourselves, your background and why you are involved in this issue. Ms Quinton, would you like to start?
Aileen Quinton
I have been involved in victims’ issues, often as a loose cannon, from not long after my mother was murdered in the Enniskillen bomb. I got to hear about this and was asked: would I put my name forward and be part of the writ? I was very delighted to do that. I have to say, though, it was quite traumatic. It was not just a matter of saying “yes”; you had to write a lot of stuff out about how you had been affected, and doing that has its cost, but, to me, I saw it as a legitimate and legal way to challenge what had happened to me, to say that this is not right. We were never brought up to consider that, because of what had happened to us, we had a right to be the cause of somebody else’s empty space around the dining table, so I was really pleased to be part of this, and even more so when we could see all this stuff about Gaddafi being feted despite what had happened to us and despite how he was treating his own people. I was proud to be what seemed to be the only British challenge to that wrongdoing. The whole issue of accountability and justice has been very, very important to me from the start, and, to me, this is what that writ is all about. In a sense, I see this inquiry as part of an accountability, and accountability for Governments, in that it matters how you treat people and that, somehow, in some way, in some measure, you will be held to account.
Kenny Donaldson
It is a pleasure to be here; thank you for the opportunity. I am a spokesman with Innocent Victims United, which is an umbrella organisation for 21 individual groups scattered across the United Kingdom. It was a privilege to hear from Jonathan earlier on, and to hear issues from a victim here on the mainland, because we take those issues very seriously also. In fact, we would see around this table that there are number of representatives: your constituencies are in GB; these are your constituents. Those of us in Northern Ireland cannot vote for you people, but these individuals do, and we very much feel that the legacy of this particular issue needs to be that there are support structures in place for these individuals comparable to what we have in Northern Ireland. Our interest in this is, obviously, that a significant number of our own organisation’s members are on the initial writ, and we are very clear that that writ must be settled, but, secondly, that a legacy fund must be established, free from Government, with an independent trust set up that will provide for victims and survivors in the longer term.
Chair
Thank you. I think you were in for both the previous sessions; you heard what they said. Presumably you agree with pretty well everything you heard.
Kenny Donaldson
Yes, very much so. What needs tying out in all of this is that Tony Blair initiated a war on the basis of invisible weapons of mass destruction. There have been real weapons of mass destruction used on individuals in this room and others outside of it, and yet this Government, “Government plc” over the years, have not dealt with this issue, and it is absolutely disgraceful. It is not an isolated issue. People have come through traumas in more recent years around OTR scandals; we were before this Committee on that issue as well. We had prerogatives of mercy. Individuals across Northern Ireland and in our border areas are given almost free passes to operate criminal empires without being held accountable. Enough is enough, and the point was raised earlier on today that the sympathy, the tea and scones and biscuits, is over; victims demand action now.
Gavin Robinson
Thank you both for taking the time to come here this morning, and, Mr Donaldson, thank you for the email last night. It just shares another example of the heartache that victims face. You heard, I guess, my questions to Mr Frazer, Mr Halliday and Mr Ganesh, but I am interested to hear from both of you personally your reflections as to how let down you are by Government’s actions. When was the last time, as either a representative of people associated with the writ or as a part of the writ yourself, somebody from central Government, from mainland UK, took the opportunity to get in touch, let you know how things are progressing or what the possibilities are for finally bringing justice and recourse to victims?
Aileen Quinton
I would not be likely to hear myself; it would be more likely the people that have spoken before. Somebody mentioned about being swept under the carpet. Victims are continually having to scramble out from under the carpet and try to drag justice along with us, because that is what people are trying to push under the carpet as well. We should not be the only ones fighting for justice, and we especially should not be fighting our own Government for justice. One thing I would also like to mention is that, as long as this goes on, people in the writ are dying off. We feel that that is what Government hopes we all will do, and, if they carry on, that is eventually what is going to happen. Myself personally, two of my brothers died last year, so whatever happens now is too late for them. It is back to this being a legitimate response to terrorism. My brother, Christopher, is one of those who died. Within days of the bomb, when there was a media circus, I remember him saying to the rest of us, “We need to be very careful what we say to the media, because, if we say the wrong thing, some Catholic gets shot in Belfast tonight.” That sense of responsibility and the impact of what happens is something that mattered to us, and that we do not matter to our Government is really, really hard to bear. One of the last emails that I had from him before he died was just about this issue and the Government response, saying that the actions of the Government and the Foreign Office have convinced most of us that they are actively trying—and successfully so far—to prevent the Libyans from settling. That is the very strong message that we get. Governments have a responsibility about incentives: that Government action should give the incentive for people to do right and not wrong. I think the Government have given the Libyans an incentive not to settle in the past, because, to me, they have given a clear message: “We do not actually want you to. There is not the real will for this to be settled, and we just hope that the victims will be quiet and go away.”
Danny Kinahan
Really, I just wondered if, Kenny, you could tell us what help is given at the moment. When we talk about the package and what we need to have a good pool to work from, I am sure everyone is struggling, if they are getting anything at all.
Kenny Donaldson
What we have in Northern Ireland is the Victims and Survivors Service, which was established by OFMDFM. While it certainly has made some inroads in terms of the health, wellbeing and welfare of victims across Northern Ireland, the reality is that those schemes, while they are open to GB‑based victims, are not promoted here. It is really by chance rather than design that people are hearing about it. We have been dealing with folk across GB almost on a daily basis now—people from your own constituency, Mr Anderson, listening to your accent, in terms of the north‑east—and a number of family members whose loved ones were regular army soldiers who were murdered in Northern Ireland. The point in all of this is: the core commodity, which is always at the centre of all this, is oil, and the deals that went on at that particular time. We have made this point recently: it is almost ironic that oil actually opens up the answer for an awful lot of people who were injured as a result of terrorism, because it is that commodity, oil, which can ease their pain in terms of pain relief. If a person is unable to heat their home on an almost constant basis, and they are an amputee or they are suffering from other physical disfigurements, then that is a real issue. We have asked the question, repeatedly, why there has not been a dialogue—between not only Westminster and Stormont but also Dublin, because we have to be mindful that a number of atrocities took place in the Republic—around all these issues, to ensure that there is a service available to victims and survivors, irrespective of your postcode. Presently, people who are living in GB are discriminated against on the basis of their postcode, and that is not acceptable.
Danny Kinahan
Is there an organisation going out to find all the people in GB that are involved?
Kenny Donaldson
Again, it is a very good question. At the time of the OTR inquiry, we had raised that particular matter. We asked for Government, at that point, to put in place a process that would enable a scoping study to be done, in GB, of where victims and survivors are located. I have to say, as with the commentary earlier on, we are still waiting in terms of anything being done on that. The reality is, I think, that it scares people somewhat. The numbers are very, very significant. If you think of the number of regular army soldiers, for instance, who were murdered in Northern Ireland and their families that are now here; the number of atrocities that were committed on the mainland here; not to mention the number of Northern Ireland‑based victims who have now moved across the water, the numbers are significant, but it is almost as if people want to just wish the problem away. These individuals are suffering daily. To cite one particular example at the very edge of it all, one individual whom we have been in contact with and who is very seriously injured sleeps underneath an airport in a sleeping bag. He is homeless. Now, if that were to happen in Northern Ireland, that would be front page of any of the newspapers there and there would be an uproar at a victim being treated in that particular manner. In GB here, he is just another guy who is homeless.
Kate Hoey
Thank you both for the work you have done over many years. One of the things that comes, of course, is that it is not just about money. That, I think, is really important: that this is actually about justice. Aileen, I want to ask you: in your personal statement, which was really very moving indeed and recounted what happened to your mother, you talked about the feeling of let‑down‑ness that you had when the G8 came to Enniskillen, the Libyan Prime Minister was in Enniskillen, and you and the victims were refused a meeting. Could you just say something about that?
Aileen Quinton
That was, again, my brother, Christopher, who was an arch ferreter on the internet and he happened to find some little, obscure reference to the fact that the Libyan Prime Minister was going to be attending the G8 held in Enniskillen, which was the site of one of the major atrocities associated with Gaddafi Semtex. There was a buzz in the network amongst the victims. To me, even apart from the writ or compensation, this was somebody who had suffered at the hands of Gaddafi; surely the most logical thing would be trying to facilitate him meeting with other people who had suffered at the hands of Gaddafi. That was another missed opportunity for us to create bonds. Victims are having to do that on our own, in despite of our Government. We were just appalled to discover that absolutely nothing was going to be arranged for local victims to meet the Libyan Prime Minister.
Kate Hoey
Did you find it ironic that he was meeting someone who probably had been involved, or could potentially have been involved, in buying some of these Libyan—
Aileen Quinton
Absolutely, because then we got an email from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to say, “We are sure some of you will be disappointed, but hope you will consider it positive that he met with Northern Ireland leaders.” Considering the Northern Ireland leaders were Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness, when it has been said in the media about the potential for his involvement in the bomb, and we were expected to find that positive, it was absolutely heartless—and this is from diplomats. It was just absolutely astonishing and, again, just shows how little our sensitivities mattered. On this issue, too, about saying that victims should be negotiating and sorting this out for ourselves, we were even prevented from that sort of encounter, which seems like the most natural thing in the world for the Government to be trying to facilitate.
Kenny Donaldson
Just to draw on that, the means by which victims were able to communicate with the Libyan Prime Minister at that particular time was that a letter was agreed to be handed over at that stage. It was, I believe, Peter Robinson who handed that letter over at those particular talks, so that was the level of respect that was given to victims and their feelings on it all. There is another important matter. Enniskillen does feature very importantly in all of this, with the US bombing of Libya in 1986. We have it on good authority from someone within senior intel that there were a number of meetings that took place in the immediate aftermath of that particular bombing, in which senior IRA members at that time, along with officials within Libya, met, determining a strategy around fighting a quasi-war against the British. In effect, the PIRA were quite content to be the subcontractors in all of that. The reality is that Enniskillen was the first significant atrocity where that was being put to test. As to the individuals who were involved in that, which goes right to the heart of all of this, we have also been advised by a senior former HET investigator that he had cause to wish to bring in the Deputy First Minister for questioning in regards to that atrocity. He was prevented from doing so. The NIO advised that that would not be a good idea, and it did not happen.
Lady Hermon
Can you give a date for that?
Kenny Donaldson
I haven’t it to hand here, but we do have that information.
Chair
We will come back to that in a minute. My clear memory of a discussion I had, I think with somebody in the Foreign Office, certainly before the bombing—in 1985, if not before then—was that there certainly was Libyan involvement even at that stage.
Kenny Donaldson
Yes. Libyan involvement did occur prior to then, but it intensified after that particular atrocity. The intel we received is that Gaddafi very much took it personally, that particular atrocity in Libya, and, thereafter, the scale of the willingness to assist with PIRA very much multiplied. If we look at what transpired thereafter in terms of the arms finds in the Republic and the murder of Frank Hegarty—after him being assured that he could have free passage back to Northern Ireland, he was murdered—this is all linked. You need to probe those issues, I would say, very, very seriously.
Aileen Quinton
These things are all part of a bigger picture. To this issue about where victims come in the hierarchy, I would be content to come second, if justice came first, because that should be the thing that takes priority. The other question that leaps out to me is: why has there not been more interest in finding out who was responsible for bringing in this weaponry, this knowhow and this capability? Surely that is a crime, but it seems to be that victims are the only people interested in getting to the heart of that information. We hear different things about people in Libya who have offered that information, but we are the only ones that seemed interested in finding that. Do I have to get on a plane, go to Libya and ask people myself? That would seem to follow on from the Government saying that we should be trying to sort out the compensation by ourselves. What are Governments for? Are they not meant to be about protecting us and protecting society?
Lady Hermon
It is really very harrowing. We have had a long session this morning. The information you have given us is really very shocking indeed. I have the greatest compassion for the suffering of everyone in this room. Thank you so much for coming, being so articulate and expressing how this has impacted on you. Am I right in thinking that the Enniskillen bombing will be 28 years ago this November?
Aileen Quinton
Yes.
Lady Hermon
Have we any idea how far forward and how progressed we are in the inquiry to find who was responsible for the bombing? Where are we in the investigation, 28 years later?
Aileen Quinton
Coming up to the 25th anniversary, there suddenly was a movement. There was a link we were told was given from the HET to the PSNI to follow up lines of inquiry. As far as I know, we have heard nothing since. That was in 2012.
Kenny Donaldson
You are talking upwards of two and a half years.
Lady Hermon
Why do you think that is the case? Personally, I do not want to be seeking criticism of the PSNI, but why do you think there has been this lack of movement?
Kenny Donaldson
What we would say is that the senior former HET investigator would also claim that he, when in the role, had sought the status of a particular named individual of the PSNI at that time, with a very broad question to have asked.
Lady Hermon
His status—i.e. was he wanted? Was he on the run? What sort of status was he asking for?
Kenny Donaldson
He was asking for the individual’s status at that particular time in terms of what his involvements or otherwise would have been in terror, and that was not forthcoming.
Aileen Quinton
There is also very unfortunate terminology around a lot of this in terms of Northern Ireland. It is deemed the past. It is a murder; it is a mass murder, and you do not really get mass murder referred to as “the past” with anything else apart from terrorism. There is no statute of limitations on murder, but, the way it is expressed, it is like it is something we should just forget about and draw a line under, implying that everybody was at it and there were faults on both sides. There was no fault on my mother’s side; she did not do anything to bring to her door what happened to her. Some of that needs to be challenged as well. This is murder, and not to be dismissed as “the past”.
Lady Hermon
At the present time, with the Conservative Government, what do you see are the options now? Do you see it as an apology from the Libyans, an apology from your own Government? What do you see are the options open? What should we be asking or seeking answers to in this inquiry?
Aileen Quinton
Just about the Libyans, Gaddafi is no more. For a whole lot of us, we watched what was happening in the safety of our armchairs, willing on the people against Gaddafi. I was always annoyed that this unit in the Foreign Office was a “reconciliation unit”, as if we needed to be reconciled with the Libyans and they needed to be reconciled with us. To us, we felt much more bonded with the Libyans and their struggle than we do with our Government. Maybe the Government needs to consider what it should do to be reconciled with us.
Kenny Donaldson
There are two key issues. You are quite right; one is a formal recognition by Government that it failed victims and survivors over the longevity of this process and a commitment that they will now put that right. On this issue of frozen assets, we have already had it confirmed this morning that the evidence has never been provided in terms of the legal advice that the Government has acquired in regards to that matter, so we are expected to take it on a wing and a prayer that it actually is the case. That issue needs to be very much probed. That finance is there, and what we would say is, if it is not to be used for the compensation of those who have been impacted by mass terrorism, then where is it to go?
Oliver Colvile
First of all, thank you very much indeed, both, for coming to see us. It is very good to see you both again. Thank you for giving up your time to come here. We have established during the course of today, and most certainly in the papers—and thank you for your presentations as well—that this is an issue that not only affects Northern Ireland, but also affects the whole of the United Kingdom. I am going to get myself into an awful lot of trouble with my fellow members of the Committee. Do you know whether there are any families in Plymouth who are affected by this? If you cannot do that now, can you look through and then ask them to contact me? Indeed, can I make a practical suggestion? That is to get your victims’ families to write to their Members of Parliament in the United Kingdom to make sure that happens, because, frankly, if there are a number of MPs like myself—Back-Bench Members of Parliament—who write to Ministers, put down parliamentary questions and all of that, that will place an enormous amount of pressure upon Ministers to actually come up with a proper answer to all of this and to try to get the compensation that is desperately needed. I am very happy to work with you on trying to deliver that too, if that is of any help.
Kenny Donaldson
We would be happy to do that. I suppose I would ask the Committee again here to please reason with the Government that there is a scoping study carried out in GB. That is the most pressing issue that needs doing, because we are building up a database and contacts of where people are located, but it is by no means a full picture; it is very piecemeal at the moment. Government needs to invest in this issue and actually show that it wants to deal with it.
Mr Nigel Evans
You have just told Lady Hermon that you are coming up to a significant anniversary, and it seems to me that you believe the Government would just prefer for it to all go away. That is the sense that I am getting: that it is almost like pushing jelly up a wall; that you are just not going to be able to achieve it; and that, irrespective of changes of Government even, there does not seem to be a sense of urgency or immediacy about doing something about it. As you say, it may well be historic, but it seems to me that the Government does espouse certain historic crimes. We know now what the flavour of the month is, and huge resources are being thrown at it; the feeling is that people need to bring closure. How do you feel when you see that, and, at the same time, there seems to be absolutely no regard to closure for yourselves?
Aileen Quinton
It just adds to it. I cannot understand myself why I get shocked each time. I still get shocked, even though I know it is the same message over and over again. It really is terrible that it is the victims that have to be fighting for justice. I was so naïve when I was young that I thought that was what Governments were meant to do, but what we try to do is almost in spite of Government. We ultimately cannot fight the terrorists and the Government.
Kenny Donaldson
What has happened in terms of Northern Ireland is that the peace and political processes have become intertwined, and that is the difficulty; they are not two clear processes. What we feel, in terms of representing victims and survivors, is that they have now been put into a particular camp and box where you are almost “anti‑peace”; you are anti‑establishment; you actually are now the problem. The reality is that, if we look at Stormont and what is going on, and even the developments today—and we have to wait to see the outcome of all that, but there have been very significant arrests today around the recent murder—people need to understand that, with Northern Ireland, you cannot have a phony peace at all costs; you have to have a genuine peace. Elements of how this peace process has been rolled out have been reckless. In 1998, people took their position on the agreement: yes or no. They took their position. If people in 1998 had foreseen that the prisoners who were released in 1998 as terrorists on licence, 17 years later, would now be considered in law as victims alongside those whom they were incarcerated for, people would have told you that you were away in the head. That is just a very, very clear example of what has happened within our society. That has got to all be re‑examined, the pause button pressed and reconfigured, and then we go forward with a proper, sustainable peace, because it is not going to happen the way it is.
Aileen Quinton
A real peace has to have justice at its core. It is something I have said so many times: trying to pay for peace by giving justice as the payment is, to me, like selling the TV to pay for the licence. It just does not work.
Mr Nigel Evans
I only have a final question, really, which is: why are you not more angry?
Lady Hermon
She is exhausted—dignified and exhausted.
Mr Nigel Evans
I just listened to three sets of evidence here and I am angry.
Kenny Donaldson
Your point is very valid. The Government realises victims do not have guns and bombs, or do not have the threat of using guns and bombs.
Aileen Quinton
I am not going to bomb London, so I do not matter.
Lady Hermon
It is your dignity. It is your quiet persistence—and it is your persistence; you are not going to go away. You are absolutely not going to go away. You are stood united, and what is so refreshing is that, in fact, victims in other countries like Libya have given you more support—that is what is so shocking—than your own Government. That is a terrible indictment of our own Government.
Kenny Donaldson
The relationships with the likes of Spain and how the Spaniards deal with their victims as well is something where the UK needs to take a wee leaf out of its book. People are effectively given a hero status there for what they have come through. As we have argued, down the borderline parts of Northern Ireland, where people refuse to bring to another door what was brought to theirs, they are the heroes and martyrs within this society, not those who went out and committed violence.
Aileen Quinton
I would say, as regards anger, I have my moments.
Kenny Donaldson
She does.
Chair
Can I thank you for coming today, and can I thank all of the witnesses? You have given us a very good start to our inquiry. I would just assure you that we are undertaking this inquiry voluntarily, because we care about it; we care about victims, and you can be assured we will take it very seriously indeed.
Kenny Donaldson
We would ask that you put all pressure possible to have Mr Blair before you.
Lady Hermon
Oh, yes, we will.
Chair
Thank you very much. Oral evidence: HM Government support for UK Victims of IRA attacks that used Gaddafi-supplied Semtex and weapons, HC 406 33