Oral evidence: Countering extremism, HC 428Tuesday 17 November 2015

Oral evidence, 17 November 2015.

Witnesses

Mark Keary, Headteacher, Bethnal Green Academy, and Alison Brannick, former Deputy Headteacher, Bethnal Green Academy, gave evidence.

Chair

May I call the Committee to order and welcome our two witnesses? This is part of the Committee’s ongoing inquiry into counter-terrorism. I welcome Mark Keary, the headteacher of Bethnal Green Academy, and Alison Brannick, the former deputy head of the academy. For those who follow the Committee’s proceedings, our predecessor Committee looked into the issue specifically of Shamima, Kadiza and Amira, three girls at the academy who left the United Kingdom and went to Syria via Istanbul. At that stage, Mr Keary, I had a conversation with you on the telephone, but the general election intervened and we were unable to take evidence from you, so I am glad you are here. We are not here specifically on that case. We are here to use that case as an example regarding the counter-radicalism measures that the Government are proposing, and indeed to consider what your school is doing as well, so thank you for coming. Could I start with you, Mr Keary? There are criticisms of the school in respect of the three young girls who left the school because of a number of failings in notifying parents, that they had been issued with a formal letter and that they had been interviewed by the police. Do you accept those criticisms that more could have been done to stop Shamima, Kadiza and Amira leaving the country?

Mark Keary

I think the chronology is important to provide context in relation to this, so perhaps you will bear with me for a moment. In December, when the first student went missing, the school was informed that this was a missing persons investigation. Clearly, as the police investigation unfolded and other elements became very clear, the message to the school was again repeated that our role was to continue to ensure that communication to parents and carers related not to any form of extremism, but in relation to a missing person. At that time, Alison Brannick, the deputy principal, contacted all the parents of the friendship group, including the girls who subsequently left in February. Alison spoke to all the families and informed them that they were going to be contacted by one element or another of the police in relation to this. As far back as December, there was clear engagement with parents and carers, letting them know what was going on and why.

Chair

This is the first time you are able to put the record straight on these matters. You are telling the Committee that in December last year, there was no question of this being about somebody leaving the country to go and fight in Syria or to move to Syria. This was simply about another pupil, who has not been named yet, who had been a missing person, or did you have notice from the police that this was to do with radicalisation?

Mark Keary

It started as a missing persons. Alison.

Alison Brannick

Yes, I would agree that initially the information that we were given was that the young person was missing, and it was conducted as a missing persons inquiry, so in December that was where we were with the situation.

Chair

So nobody from the Prevent team came to you and said, “We are very worried. This young girl has left Tower Hamlets. She has gone to Syria. We are worried about the friendship group—that other girls might go as well”? If you saw the evidence of the parents to this Committee, they felt the school had let them down and that had the school intimated that there was a problem with radicalisation, they would have been alerted and maybe they would have taken Shamima, Kadiza and Amira’s passports away from them.

Alison Brannick

In December we were dealing with the missing persons unit, Tower Hamlets police.

Chair

When did it become a missing person to do with radicalisation?

Alison Brannick

I think it was after the Christmas holiday that we were contacted by the counter-terrorism unit—in February—regarding moving the investigation forward.

Chair

Had you known in December that this was an issue to do with someone leaving the country, would you have reacted differently?

Alison Brannick

I think we would have looked to the agencies that were supporting us for advice on that, most definitely and, as I said, we were dealing with the missing persons unit of Tower Hamlets police.

Chair

But you were informed subsequently that this was an issue of radicalisation, and before these three girls—Shamima, Kadiza and Amira—left the country?

Alison Brannick

Yes.

Chair

So you still had an opportunity then to alert the parents, because the parents’ concern—and, from this case, we want to have a wider look at this issue—is that the school did not do everything that it could in order to alert them. Do you accept now that you should have told the parents that it was a wider issue than a missing person for one of the friends of these three girls?

Alison Brannick

Obviously we worked with Tower Hamlets and we worked with the Metropolitan Police, and we took advice from both of those agencies. Based on our experience, much more clarity is needed from those agencies to support schools in this situation. Learning from the experience that we went through, I think it would be helpful for schools to have real clarity on the roles and responsibilities for every organisation that is involved in this process.

Chair

Sure. We will come on to the guidance that has been issued so far, but just in this particular case, do you regret not saying to the parents, Mr Keary, that this was more serious than a missing person, and that this was one of the friendship group leaving the country?

Mark Keary

At that time, for me to have done that would have been to go against the clear, consistent and repeated guidance from the police in relation to this matter.

Chair

Which was not to say anything.

Mark Keary

Which was to ensure that this was communicated, when it was communicated, as a missing persons inquiry. I would suggest in a situation like that, bearing in mind what we know now, that our discussion would have gone significantly wider, but the world for us—as for many people, and certainly all the agencies involved here—was a significantly different place prior to February of this year.

Chair

Of course. Now, you gave the girls a letter to give to their parents, which never got to their parents.

Mark Keary

We did not give a letter to anyone.

Chair

Who gave the letter to them?

Alison Brannick

The police gave the letter.

Chair

The police?

Alison Brannick

Yes.

Chair

Was it through you or was it directly to the girls?

Alison Brannick

It was directly to the girls in a meeting that was facilitated at the school.

Chair

In March this year, five 15 to 16 year-old girls from the academy were barred from travelling abroad without permission by a judge in the Family Division of the High Court after showing an interest in going to Syria. Is that right?

Mark Keary

No. There were four students from Bethnal Green Academy and there was another individual, and we found out on the last day of term from the BBC website that five young people had been made wards of court. We had no prior knowledge of this act. We were not consulted and, in fact, we were not in a position do to anything other than simply to react to it. It was difficult enough to try to correct the erroneous reporting at the time, but clearly by that point, if you are not involved in the conversation, you can neither offer support to those closest affected nor take any action yourself in that respect.

Chair

But you have the opportunity today to clear the record and to put your views forward, which we appreciate. Why does there appear to be so much radicalisation at Bethnal Green?

Mark Keary

Radicalisation at Bethnal Green is certainly something on which we have found ourselves having to face a great deal of questions from a range of different agencies. I am not at this point clear about the reasons for the young people being made wards of court and on the fact that that was subsequently lifted in August, we were not clear about why that was the case. I am afraid I cannot comment on the evidence. Going back—

Chair

It must be a concern to you as a headteacher. You have three girls who have gone off—now four girls—to fight in Syria and four girls who have been made wards of court. This is not happening in every single school in the country, as far as we know. Does that not cause you concern, looking at the way in which the school operates? Let me just pose the question: why are so many girls going from this school?

Mark Keary

Of course I am hugely concerned about this. When the news broke in February, we were under huge scrutiny from counter-terrorism and from the police, who went through in great detail the school’s processes and mechanisms, including its ICT policy, and records of engagement across the board. Key staff were interviewed in a long-running inquiry that probed, searched and looked closely into every aspect of the school’s work. At the end of that process, they concluded that the search for who, what and how in relation to this process of radicalisation would be moving elsewhere. Further down the line, we are still no clearer about what the agents of change were in this respect.

Chair

Has there been no feedback to you—no additional guidance; no additional clarity from the agencies involved—as to how you should do your job effectively to prevent radicalisation?

Mark Keary

Only in so far as the Prevent strategy, with which we have been fully engaged from the summer of 2014. We have seen that adapt and shift to the evolving strategies of a very different and dynamic situation, which has taken many agencies by surprise. To briefly answer your question, we are hugely concerned. We have looked into every aspect of our work. We have looked closely at what we as a school, and what we would expect to be all the other agencies involved, could or should have done along the way that would have been different.

Chair

Sure. We had a telephone conversation in which I talked about the availability of literature in your school for these young girls. You said that they did not need to come to school, as outside the school gates, within a short distance from the school, were a number of shops that were able to sell material that perhaps would not be appropriate to a 15 and 16 year-old, and that radicalisation was maybe happening in the community. Is that right? Did I get the right sense of the community over there?

Mark Keary

Our children face many challenges. School is certainly one of the agents of change that hopes to ensure that we enable all our young people to succeed, but within a very short walk of our school there are all sorts of threats and dangers that are very tangible—beyond the house and the home’s control, and beyond the school’s control.

Chair

Which dangers in particular?

Mark Keary

We have seen drugs and gangs alongside radicalisation—a range of other threats that maybe are more conventional and long established, but which still take their toll on our young people and their dreams. We live alongside those. The police do what they can as best to manage it but again, to briefly respond, I would suggest that you simply Google the incidents. Issues come up—page after page after page—that perhaps do not constitute criminal offences, but certainly represent a danger to us as we try to work with the young people within a pluralistic setting.

Tim Loughton

Mr Keary, can I just clarify something? You said that the first you found out that the girls had been made wards of court was from a BBC source.

Alison Brannick

Yes.

Tim Loughton

You were not notified directly by the court of their status?

Alison Brannick

No.

Tim Loughton

That is a bit unusual, is it not? Schools are prime players in that and should be notified, I would think.

Alison Brannick

We were not part of the decision-making process with regards to the ward of court application.

Tim Loughton

No, but you are a party that has a large interface with those girls and need to be aware of their status.

Alison Brannick

Yes.

Tim Loughton

Can I talk about the Prevent duty now, which has come under quite a lot of criticism? The NAHT says that it is confusing, that it was introduced very quickly and that it has not been properly presented to schools. What guidance have you received from the Government in your school, and how adequate or otherwise do you think it is?

Mark Keary

Perhaps we can take that in two stages—the guidance pre-February and then the way the strategy has evolved, including the revisions in June. I think the big issue to do with the Prevent strategy that we embarked upon in the summer of 2014—again, all this is with hindsight—is that it was designed to counter a process of radicalisation that had evolved over quite a few years, certainly in relation to organisations such as al-Qaeda, and it had certain figures within it: the stereotype of the angry young man, with that gradual disaffection and the route that they follow. Of course it had for us in our training some identifying aspects, some indicators of radicalisation, rather like a tick-list but more complex than that, in fairness. The difficulty then, of course, was that our staff or, if we are to read further testimony, professional counter-terrorism officers or the families themselves, did not notice that the girls had exhibited any of those symptoms or those characteristics. We were quite focused through the Prevent strategy on looking for symptoms of radicalisation that on this occasion just simply did not come to light.

Tim Loughton

The original Prevent strategy soon became not fit for purpose, is what you are saying, because of the evolving threat that was there. But when the Prevent strategy became the Prevent duty in June this year and the Department for Education wrote to schools on 1 July, did that guidance as to what your duty then was reflect the changing circumstances, or was it effectively out of date?

Mark Keary

I think the evolving threat, particularly represented by the current situation and the speed of change, means that any legislative response or any strategy is in danger of becoming outmoded almost instantly, because tactics for recruitment and radicalisation appear to shift and change in response to those. Nevertheless, at its heart there is a clear, coherent and, I think, positive message, which is that we must address the issues and the causes of radicalisation within organisations, including schools, but not exclusively those, because there are many that have a huge duty of care now within the community and have an impact.

Tim Loughton

But this has become a duty, so you have a responsibility to make sure that you are following Government guidance now, as has been laid out. What you are saying is that guidance effectively has become not fit for purpose, and even the new guidance under the duty from June this year became obsolete very quickly. In that case, what did you do to go back to the Government to say, “You are not dealing with the problem that we are facing now and the guidance needs to be extended, adapted or updated to include this”? What feedback has come from you and perhaps other academies or schools in a similar position?

Mark Keary

We were invited to contribute through the Department for Education to the review of the circumstances, which was just one of the many investigations that we have, quite rightly, participated in since December, moving our way through. We were very clear at that time that no single strategy should follow the same route of the somewhat directive, quite structured process of Prevent as it was when we started working with it.

Tim Loughton

So have you effectively adapted the Prevent duty into what you see as more appropriate and relevant for your school or are you just paying lip service to it—or are you not following it at all, effectively?

Mark Keary

I do not know where that came from. My apologies if I have led you down that route. We found and issues to do with the original Prevent strategy, which we fed in. We have seen the Prevent duty now updated and I believe it is something that we can work with, but it needs to be very regularly reviewed across the board. We cannot be caught in the same situation where we imagine that the radicalisation process and those who represent a threat to our young people will simply stand still. What we have to learn how to do is to adapt and be, for once, proactive in relation to this. One original flaw of the Prevent strategy, which perhaps lingers at this point, is that it is predominantly reactive, but we need to look at that duty of care, see what we can do to ensure that we have buy-in from our communities and all our staff, and ensure that it is supported by genuine work within the curriculum across the board that educates our young people and helps them to become far more critical thinkers as we move forward. That is every school.

Tim Loughton

So it should not be called Prevent. Is what you are saying that it should be “Respond”, rather than a Prevent?

Mark Keary

The name will probably change in time, but right now it appears to be what we have and all we have, so I think we need to make it work.

Chair

Indeed. In fact, our predecessor Committee’s reports talked about “Engage” rather than Prevent as being the best way. Before we go to Mr McDonald, can you just give us some figures? I am not talking about citizenship now; I am talking about ethnicity. What is the ethnic minority percentage in your school in Bethnal Green?

Mark Keary

The first thing to say is that it is very different in every single year group. The area that we are in is an ever-changing, dynamic community.

Chair

Of course. The 15 to 16 year-olds—GCSE level?

Mark Keary

I would say that over 80% to 85% of our students are ethnic minority.

Chair

What percentage are from the Muslim faith?

Mark Keary

Around about 50% of that outgoing year 11.

Stuart C. McDonald

Could you tell us a bit about the training that your staff undergo to equip them with the knowledge and confidence to identify children at risk of radicalisation or extremism?

Mark Keary

Yes, Alison.

Alison Brannick

To be clear, first of all this is an issue in relation to safeguarding and it is very similar to the training that takes place initially regarding any safeguarding issue, whether that is child sexual exploitation, FGM or any other concerns that you may have. It is being very clear with staff about the reporting structure if they have any concerns so that staff are very aware of how to report any concerns relating to any form of change in behaviour, mixing with different groups and so on, that they might see from young people. We have been discussing issues around radicalisation and extremism within our safeguarding training for a very long time.

Stuart C. McDonald

Who does your training and what form does it take?

Alison Brannick

We do an in-house refresher that goes on throughout the year to ensure that it is always in the forefront of staff’s minds. All our staff have participated in WRAP training—raising awareness of Prevent training—which is delivered by accredited providers from the local authority. A very interesting observation to make about that is the video case studies that are used as part of the training all use the stereotype of the angry young man, whether that is to do with right-wing extremism or Muslim extremism. This is something that we raised with the Department for Education. Again, I think this links into what Mark has said about that shift and change that is constant. Those materials need updating and there needs to be a move away from that stereotype where you are looking at young people who may be radicalised because they have previously been involved in criminality, and have that vulnerability, to looking at the factors that are impacting on our female population at the moment.

Stuart C. McDonald

That is very useful to know. Has there been any other feedback from your staff and would you say overall that they feel that the training that they get is sufficient to enable them to undertake the duties that are on them?

Alison Brannick

I think there are two parts to that answer. The feedback from our staff was that those training resources were fixated around stereotypical males. We work very hard with our staff to ensure that they know exactly what to do and what referral processes are in place if they have concerns about any young person.

Stuart C. McDonald

So they regard the training as fit for purpose, with those caveats?

Alison Brannick

It needs updating with female training materials, I would say. We have to be aware of that, in the light of the current climate, and we cannot just focus on how young men are affected by this. We must have case studies of how young women are affected by this.

Chair

Thank you. I should have asked you what percentage of your staff are from the ethnic minority communities and what percentage are from the Muslim faith.

Mark Keary

We have approximately 50%, but it is not something that we—

Chair

Sorry, 50% are ethnic minorities on your staff?

Alison Brannick

Yes.

Mark Keary

Across the board, it is a fair reflection of that, including support staff, but it is not something that we keep a regular tally of.

Chair

No, but you must see them every day, so you would know, would you not?

Mark Keary

Yes.

Chair

What percentage are of the Muslim faith?

Mark Keary

I do not inquire into their faith. Alison?

Alison Brannick

I would say probably around 30% of the staff.

Mark Keary

Yes, I think that is fair.

Chair

But do you think that you should, Mr Keary? If you are trying to engage with young girls and others in your school, is it not important that they are able to go to people they can trust and rely on who may well be from their own communities? Perhaps one of the problems with schools like Bethnal Green is that there is a disconnect because people do not feel they can be open with you all.

Mark Keary

We have a very comprehensive pastoral care system. I would refer you again back to the Department’s inquiries in relation to this and also to Ofsted reports that go into it, and probably in far greater depth and detail. We use community workers to ensure that there is efficient and effective communication with the home. In the absence, sometimes, of the English language, it is absolutely essential to ensure there is appropriate communication. Therefore, there are ample potential role models for our young Muslim students—male and female—to go to, but we are an international school across the board, and there are some considerations and concerns where the issues of gender, race and religious background are entirely irrelevant to the standard of care that is required and the expertise.

Chair

Sure, but do you have outside organisations that come and talk to your students and tell them about radicalisation and how really terrible it is if they make that decision to go to Syria?

Mark Keary

We have had quite a few through the Prevent strategy.

Alison Brannick

Just to be clear as well, after the events of February half term, when the girls travelled, the school was inundated with agencies offering to help and support us. We had to go through quite a process to ensure that those agencies had the right intentions, so we took the decision to work with Home Office-approved providers only, and approved by Tower Hamlets, within Bethnal Green Academy. We have had the representative from the Prevent team in Tower Hamlets come in and deliver assemblies. We also deliver assemblies ourselves regarding raising the awareness of extremism and the radicalisation of young people.

Chair

Of course. That is very helpful. Thank you.

Naz Shah

When you talk about your external organisations coming in, have you had any non-Government organisations coming in to deliver the training?

Alison Brannick

No, we have not, and I refer back to the answer I have just given. It was a time when we wanted to be absolutely clear that the people we were inviting into our school were coming with the right intentions. It is also part of the Prevent agenda that you are very clear about the policy on visitors.

Naz Shah

Are there no non-Government providers on the list of approved providers?

Alison Brannick

I cannot give you an answer to that at the moment without having that list in front of me—apologies.

Victoria Atkins

I am going to ask you questions about the criteria used to judge children and students at risk. Please do not in any way hinder any investigatory processes that may be going on, but what criteria are used to assess pupils who are at risk of being drawn into extremism and terrorism?

Alison Brannick

You would look for changes in any patterns of behaviour. You would look perhaps at the Channel vulnerability list, which lists potential behaviours that may raise concern, but I have to say it is about knowing your students and being able to identify when there are those changes in patterns of behaviour, whether that is friendship groups, study habits, dress and so on.

Victoria Atkins

Again, those are factors that you apply not just to this issue, but getting involved in—

Alison Brannick

No, any safeguarding issue, and I think that is the point that we are trying to make.

Victoria Atkins

Do staff know how and where to refer children and young people for further help?

Alison Brannick

Yes. I think it is a very clear referral process at Bethnal Green Academy. Any concerns come through to the safeguarding team, and then that team, if it is deemed necessary, would make the referral through to the social inclusion panel, where that would be picked up and a decision is made on the next steps to support that young person, if it goes through to Channel.

Victoria Atkins

Of course young people do not operate in a vacuum and their families are an essential part of this process.

Alison Brannick

Yes.

Victoria Atkins

How do you work with families if there is a child you think is at risk? How do you work with them to try to help families to help you as well?

Alison Brannick

We have worked with the Tower Hamlets parents advice centre, putting on sessions for parents so that they feel confident in understanding the risks of extremism and radicalisation and in identifying potential signs of radicalisation, and so that they know exactly what agencies to go to to support them, if that was the case. Following on from that, we also do a lot of work around e-safety, which obviously is an issue linked to our discussions today, so that parents feel confident in ensuring that they can help in keeping their young people safe online.

Mr Winnick

First of all, apologies for having been asked out to deal with various matters. It may that one or two of the questions have been asked by colleagues; if so, the Chair will soon advise me. As far as the internet in school is concerned, how far is there a danger that children will be online and possibly be drawn into terrorist propaganda?

Alison Brannick

Within school?

Mr Winnick

At school.

Alison Brannick

Again, this relates to the Prevent agenda. As a school, it is very important that you have a very strong filtering system on your network, which we do have via London Grid for Learning. We also have software that identifies particular key words so that if a young person was searching for something online, staff would be alerted. The filtering of the school internet system is robust and brings to the attention of staff anything that might be concerning so that they are able to intervene and act on that. Along with that, it is important that young people are equipped with the critical thinking skills to know how to use the internet safely, to be able to understand the dangers of using the internet and to make the right choices, and to keep themselves safe online.

Mr Winnick

Do you agree with that, Mr Keary?

Mark Keary

Absolutely. For all sorts of safeguarding reasons that predate this particular challenge, we have regularly updated the software that works right across the academy. The police of course, as you would expect, looked closely into the internet records of the girls across the board and once again were reasonably comfortable that that was not the origin of the issue. The second part to this is that we have a rather unpopular but very well-implemented policy on mobile phone or smartphone devices, which are the usual route that young people might wish to use if they want to get around the internet protection. We do not allow those within the academy.

Mr Winnick

To some extent, this is part of the questioning that the Chair put to you at the very beginning. I am not sure about Hindu or Sikhs—perhaps it is the same as Christians and Jews—but Christian and Jewish children often would be told by their parents to be more religious if they had been brought up in a religious setting. It is not the other way round, but what puzzles people and certainly myself—perhaps my generation—is I do not know why there should be a tendency among young Muslims—children of secondary school age, if not before—to be inclined so religiously, and therefore to be vulnerable to the messages of evil and violence that obviously the jihadists are so keen to promote. Is there a particular reason why it should be different than the children of other faiths that I have mentioned?

Mark Keary

I think it would be impossible for us to speculate in relation to that. We have two colleagues as deputy principals who are both Muslim and have very different views on how things have evolved, and the reasons and the causes, but the reality is—you will have to forgive me if I am repeating myself—that we still do not know what caused the radicalisation of the four girls. We do not know what were the principal agents, what made that significant shift and change, and what made them take that terrible decision. Until we have that information, I am afraid the response to your question would be purely speculative and I do not believe I am qualified to respond.

Mr Winnick

Would it not be correct that just as it is said in other matters totally removed from radicalisation that schools cannot be a substitute for home, that applies to this aspect as well?

Mark Keary

Schools, particularly in our more challenging communities, tend to find that they regularly go the extra mile. We have many different schools within our borough, but that aspect of safeguarding is right at the core of everything that we do. That sometimes involves us being far more actively involved in promoting positive messages with parents and carers, and getting them engaged beyond their most immediate community with the wider community of the school. We are not alone in doing that. Many schools, particularly in areas like ours, do that on a very regular basis. The reality is that we have software control, but we have no control over and no understanding of the threat represented by other organisations that children may attend, or even from the internet should they go home and not have the protection of that software. So in that respect, yes, I concur.

Mr Winnick

Yes, I well understand. Thank you very much.

Mr Burrowes

Your vision is that you empower students to become independent learners who are critical in their thinking, informed in their choices and confident in their ability to succeed in the modern world. I presume that that vision has remained for some time now. In that context, you also no doubt would have had e-safety policies and appropriate levels of filtering in relation to IT. Since what happened in December, and particularly February, has anything changed to meet your vision and to also deal with the issues of safety?

Mark Keary

We found ourselves pretty much in the middle of a storm and we had to work with the situation as best we could for the 1,000 young people in the academy. The things that have shifted and changed—again, to avoid repetition, I will not touch on what has already been said—

Mr Burrowes

Particularly in relation to and just following from the questions in relation to the internet.

Mark Keary

Our e-safety policy was updated with the most recent software, as tends to happen. I would suggest that that would probably have happened anyway, and that, again, is based on the best guidance that we can possibly get from all our partners.

Mr Burrowes

We know that there is software and software, but in terms of trying to change minds and attitudes, not least in relation to the internet, has a difference been made by the briefing notes to headteachers, teachers and safeguarding leads from the Home Office and Department for Education in July, which was particularly identifying main ISIS or propaganda claims on social media sites and the like? Has there been any change of any policy or practice?

Mark Keary

We are assured that those influences are all filtered out and our staff regularly check anyway. You would not find very much independent use of ICT within the school that is not subject to some form of either technical or individual supervision, and usually both. The software itself is Government approved. As far as we are concerned, it is the best on the market.

Mr Burrowes

Obviously we know that access to the internet goes way beyond the school and school time; there is internet in the bedroom or elsewhere in the privacy of someone’s home. What is the relationship with parents, families and carers on the use of internet? It is a wide duty of due regard to preventing people from being drawn into terrorism, and obviously that goes beyond the school gates, but no doubt it has an impact on you when they come back into school.

Alison Brannick

That relates back to what I have already mentioned about the e-safety sessions that we have put on for parents where we are offering practical advice. Safer Internet Day takes place in February. We open the school up and our police community liaison officer did a session for parents.

Mr Burrowes

What is the attendance rate among parents?

Alison Brannick

We have done four e-safety sessions so far and I believe we had about 18 parents at each session; there was a similar attendance at the safety day where our police officer was present. We also write to parents regularly with advice on how to support their young person staying safe online. If you look on the parents’ page of our school website, you will see there is some helpful, concise information on there about how parents can support their sons and daughters in staying safe online. I refer back to the assembly programme that I mentioned earlier. Looking at those e-safety assemblies, we use a lot of CEOP materials, which are powerful and useful in delivering that e-safety message.

Chair

Thank you. We are coming to the end of your evidence for both of you. Just some very quick final questions. The media caravan, Mr Keary, has moved on from Bethnal Green, but you are still there and you still have your pupils to look after. From anecdotal conversations that your staff have had with the pupils who are there, how are these three girls regarded? I understand that two of them have married Daesh fighters—that has certainly been in the media. Are they regarded by the other pupils as people who got away? Are they regarded as poster girls for what they have done, or are they criticised?

Mark Keary

As you would probably understand, there is not an open conversation about this within the student body. Our community, and our parents and carers of our young people, saw at first hand the devastating consequences when young people take ill-chosen decisions in the way that they did. They have understood a great deal more, perhaps, than we give them credit for—that what they have been sold is not the reality.

Chair

But are they regarded as heroines? Do people say, “They have done very well, because they are out of Tower Hamlets and are now in Syria”?

Mark Keary

No. I have never heard any student, parent or carer, or anybody in relation to the school community, even faintly touch on that at all. It is immensely sad for everybody. Everyone understands the awful consequences for the families, the community and those who knew the girls, and that cannot be in any way discounted or underestimated.

Chair

Of course. Mrs Brannick, you have left the school. You are now principal of a school in Derby.

Alison Brannick

Yes, that is right.

Chair

Are these issues also apparent in that area or is it a completely different environment?

Alison Brannick

I think we have to be aware that this is a national and international issue and we should not close our thinking to focusing on just one particular area.

Chair

It is an issue in your school as well.

Alison Brannick

I think it is an issue in every school that all school leaders need to be aware of and working towards how we can work with our young people.

Chair

Naz Shah has a quick last question and then we will close.

Naz Shah

Do you get any extra funding to implement the new obligations that have been set by the Government?

Mark Keary

No. Some of the engagement from the Prevent team is not costed to the school, which is excellent, but it is fair to say that the most popular area that parents and carers wanted greater understanding of is in relation to e-safety. I would suggest that that aspect, perhaps even as an appendix to the Prevent strategy, is one that can and should grow. Our parents and carers want to be able to help and protect their children better. We need to be able to provide them consistently with the tools, and that involves time and cost and providers, but I think it is a cost that should be borne and it is fully appropriate for schools to be the centre of that work.

Chair

Thank you. Thank you both for coming in. This was a good opportunity. I am sorry we could not have had you in after the parents but, as I have said, things intervened—events intervened—but we are very grateful to you for coming here and sharing this experience with us in such an open and transparent way. Thank you very much to both of you. Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses

Sara Khan, Director, Inspire, and Kalsoom Bashir, Director, Inspire, gave evidence.

Chair

Sara Khan and Kalsoom Bashir, my apologies for keeping you waiting. We are running a little late and I understand that we have a vote probably around 4 pm, so we will do our best to be able to ask you these questions as best we can, as quickly as we can. Do not feel that both of you have to answer every single question; one of you may feel more inclined to answer than the other. Let me start with you, Sara Khan. You are a great supporter of the Prevent programme. You have been very enthusiastic about it and have said that it is working well, but others have criticised it. You have quite a lot of people lined up against Prevent: Shami Chakrabarti called it “the biggest spying programme in Britain in modern times and an affront to civil liberties”, while Dal Babu, a former police commander, said that it was a “toxic brand”. Why do you think it is such a good thing?

Sara Khan

Chairman, before I begin, can I just thank you for inviting us today to this session? We would also like to take this opportunity to offer our condolences to the families of the victims in Paris, Beirut and Baghdad from last week. I think we all recognise that the threat of terrorism is real, including in this country. As an organisation, we are passionate about doing what we can not only to protect our country but to play a role in safeguarding children.

Chair

I accept all that, and thank you for that introduction, but I am specifically talking about the Prevent programme. There is a lot of criticism and you are one of its great supporters. Why?

Sara Khan

I would not say we are one of the greatest supporters. We recognise that there are issues, for example with the delivery of Prevent, and we have many conversations with other people on this issue. But overall we believe that you need to have a strategy in place to prevent people from being drawn into committing acts of terrorism. You say that Dal Babu has argued that Prevent is a toxic brand. I would argue that what is not often discussed in the media is, “How has it become toxic?” We know through the work that we have done that there are many examples of Muslim groups who have made it their mission to make Prevent toxic. We have lots of examples of groups that have gone into Muslim communities—

Chair

Why are they doing that? Why are they going out of their way to attack this particular programme?

Sara Khan

I think that is a very interesting question. The people who we have seen attacking it are Islamists, hate preachers—people who fundamentally believe that Islamist extremist ideology is a form of Islam. It is not an Islam that we believe. We feel it violates the teachings of our faith, but it is almost as if they feel that Prevent is about the criminalisation of Islam. As Muslims, we do not subscribe to that view at all. We very much see it as a programme that seeks to prevent people from being drawn into extremism.

Chair

Sure, but we have spent a huge amount of money on this programme over a number of years and still young people are being radicalised. Is that not an acceptance that we need a new approach?

Sara Khan

I think first and foremost we do not recognise the scale and the threat of the issue. I know with the work that we do—

Chair

You think it is much bigger than even we imagine.

Sara Khan

I just think the scale of it is very, very big.

Chair

Give us some numbers in terms of scale. What percentage of the community or how many?

Sara Khan

I cannot give you that number. All I can say is that now with the introduction of the—

Chair

If you say the scale is much bigger, we must have some kind of comparison.

Sara Khan

For example, we do a lot of work with Muslim women. We have done so since 2007. We have gone into Muslim communities and delivered counter-radicalisation programmes, well before ISIS were on the scene. What mothers have told us time and again is, “We recognise this to be an issue.” I can give you lots of quotes the women have said to us: this is the first time someone has ever taught a theological counter-narrative to extremist ideology; or when mothers have said, “Our children are saying extreme views to us, but we do not feel we are equipped to answer these questions.” So within the communities and at a ground level, we know that it is a significant issue. Having done this work for the last seven years, those views are still as prevalent now as they were seven years ago.

Chair

Indeed. That is why we have invited you in, because we are seeking answers, Kalsoom Bashir, as to what is the tipping point. Something that the Prime Minister feels very passionate about, and we share this passion, is what turns a young British citizen, who has had everything this country has had to offer, into either a jihadi bride who decides to leave to go and live in Syria, or someone who goes to Syria, comes back and then is involved in the kind of atrocities that we have seen in Paris? What is that tipping point? Where are we going wrong?

Kalsoom Bashir

I think that is an issue that we are all grappling with. We do not have the answers, and if we had the answers, I think the world would be a very different place.

Chair

But you have seven years of experience. That is why we have asked you in.

Kalsoom Bashir

We have experience, and what we are looking at is a lot of very complex issues. We have to be proportionate about it: of the 3-point-whatever million Muslims there are now, it is a small but significant number who are being drawn towards that ideology. If we have had 500 young men or more than 50 young women, we have to look at what is going on in their lives. It is complex, but—

Chair

Sure, but give me the top three. I understand it is complex, but what we want to do in this inquiry is to try to get some solutions. What are the top three issues that are the tipping point for people?

Kalsoom Bashir

I think we are looking at a generation that has been brought up post-9/11, so their identities are hardening, they have been viewed through the media, defined by the media, viewed through the lens of counter-terrorism. You have hardening interpretations of religion and very literal interpretations of religion, and you also have views out there very openly saying, “This is a police state. The Government want to eliminate Islam. Basically, they want to stop us from practising our religion as well,” and that even living here is a temporary measure—that living among non-Muslims or the kafir, which is a very derogatory term for non-Muslims, is not the ideal. So, if you have to choose between being British and being Muslim, as well as all the other vulnerabilities that you have within your home—whether it is domestic violence or all the other issues that teenagers have—and you then have somebody saying, “We can offer you something much, much better,” it is very attractive.

Sara Khan

Can I make a point just on that? I think the issue around non-violent extremism is a very important one. We have come across many people who portray themselves as a religious authority—as a credible religious voice—sitting there in a room full of 16 year-olds and, like Murtaza Khan, for example, saying things to young people like, “We have become Jews in our clothing, Jews in our eating, Jews in everything that we do, and the other half is Christian in everything we do. Muslims are following one of these accursed nations and people are still not waking up to understand the fact that these people are enemies towards us.” What impression does this leave on a 16 year-old boy or a girl? What take-home message are they having? If we had a far right extreme group, for example, and if you reversed or mirrored that quote and said, “Muslims are the enemies to this country. We hate them and they are dirty,” we would have a problem with that—we would challenge that.

Chair

Basically you are saying we are not aggressive enough in challenging this ideology and we should be much more aggressive?

Sara Khan

What I would love to see is civil society taking the lead in saying, “Just as we—”

Chair

Who is that? I mean, civil society is quite a big lot of people. Who in particular are you talking about?

Sara Khan

I believe society as a whole has a responsibility.

Chair

But that is very big. We want practical stuff here.

Sara Khan

I do believe that Muslim faith institutions have an absolute role in this.

Chair

So the mosques?

Sara Khan

But also wider society. We see non-Muslim organisations that are happy to challenge far right extreme views. Why is it they do not show the same thrust and energy in challenging Islamist extremism, which is deeply offensive to all of us?

Chair

Indeed. You were quite critical of the counter-extremism strategy that was announced by the Government. You said that it was excessive and that it would give fuel to extremists in their cause. Why were you concerned about that, because so far you have been quite supportive of Government policy? Why do you think that it would give cause to extremism?

Sara Khan

There are sections of the counter-extremism strategy that we welcome. We welcome the fact that the Government highlight far right and Islamist extremism and neo-Nazi extremism. We welcome the fact that there will be separate recordings of Islamophobic attacks and the independent review by Louise Casey—things like that we welcome. Where we do have concerns are, first, with the identification of negative cultural practices against women as a form of extremism. Personally, we believe that should remain in the Government’s violence against women and girls strategy. We say that as an organisation that works very much around tackling violence against women and girls within Muslim communities, but also extremism. The second concern we have in particular with regard to the strategy is around banning orders, disruption orders and the closing down of premises, because we feel that these practices are illiberal. We feel that in the long term they are not going to challenge extremism. This is very much a battle of ideas.

Chair

So you would not support the banning of Hizb ut-Tahrir?

Sara Khan

No, we would not support the banning of HT. We feel very much that those ideas have to be challenged, because all you do then is just drive them underground. It is far better to challenge those arguments openly.

Chair

Kalsoom Bashir, Sara Khan seems to think that we can involve ourselves in a debate with these people. Is that going to be enough? Is it like a meeting of one of these debating societies? Surely we need to be much more aggressive. So many more young women are going than ever before. The French have the biggest contingent of women who have gone from France to Syria. Is that the same in this country? Are lots of young girls and women going?

Kalsoom Bashir

Through my work in schools I have come across a lot of young women who show empathy with and are very sympathetic to girls who have gone. We have to challenge that because they have not heard the counter-narrative. For example, if I have been faced with a woman who says, “I am very envious of women who are going to support our brothers spreading the Deen and I would go if I could, because I do not want to live here,” and I challenge her, saying, “Why do you feel that? What is so difficult about life in this country?” she will say, “The Prophet Muhammad told us to make Hijra; told us to migrate”. Then you say, “Well, why did he tell you to migrate? Why did he tell his followers? Because they were being persecuted.” She has no idea about that and she has no idea that they went to a Christian country, so it is about religious illiteracy as well and that needs to be challenged. When we do our work, if they have not heard that counter-narrative within a debate within Muslims themselves, they only have the one argument that they are following. What we are saying is that that needs to be rigorously challenged. I work as a chaplain in a university and that is what I would encourage, rather than banning.

Chair

Yes, very helpful

Nusrat Ghani

Sara, there are a number of organisations that are coming forward in this field of anti-radicalisation or saying that they are in touch with a number of communities or they are in touch with people who could become radicalised. We have had a number of people come forward and give evidence, and it is very hard to have anyone admit they knew of anybody being radicalised, or having any real contact with them or being able to understand why they may have travelled overseas. You have made some comments about CAGE in particular, and especially around its comments on the Government’s anti-radicalisation strategy and the fact that CAGE’s work does not have a positive impact on the Government’s anti-radicalisation efforts and may even erode all the work that you and other organisations are trying to do with communities that are vulnerable or at risk to radicalisation.

Sara Khan

I think this is a very important question and I can give you one or two examples. We know that CAGE has been going around the country delivering information to Muslim communities about the CTS Bill. It was widely reported in the media, for example, that Asim Qureshi from CAGE claimed the Government would consider taking children away as young as seven if those children attended demonstrations by the Stop the War group. It also argued, for example, that if you do not consent as parents to deradicalisation programmes, the state will take your children away. Even Nazir Afzal, the former chief crown prosecutor for the north-west, argued that this is just fearmongering of the very worst kind. Again, this is what brings me back to the idea of when we talk about Prevent being toxic—how has it been made toxic? There are people out there deliberately giving wrong information and scaring Muslim communities about what Prevent is about. For example, there is the idea that if you do not consent to Channel programmes, the state will take your children away, but Channel works only if you have the consent of parents. If you, as a parent, do not want to engage with Channel, there is nothing anybody can do about it. There is that kind of misinformation: confusing Prevent and Pursue; and the idea that Prevent is about spying. All of these are false arguments about Prevent and we feel that it does hamper our work. But I think, on a wider issue, as women who do this work, we started off Inspire very much in a voluntary capacity, because women were coming to us post-London bombings and saying to us, “We fear that our children will become radicalised.” Doing this on a daily basis, we would argue that working within Muslim communities, it is a very difficult climate. I would argue there is a climate of intimidation and of abuse if you do this work. People have called us Islamophobes, native informants and Government stooges, and for what? Because we stand up for women’s rights and we are trying to help Muslim mothers who come to us and say, “Can you please give us the counter-narrative? Tell us, how can we stop our children from being radicalised?” It is a very toxic environment.

Nusrat Ghani

In your work in the field, how many families, communities or organisations have you come across that have said that they have been positively influenced by the work of CAGE, or that CAGE was the place they went to and they were supported by its work?

Sara Khan

We have not really had any of that. We normally have women who come to us and say, as happened in a school last week, “My son has come to me and said, because his cousin went off to join ISIS, ‘I need to die as a martyr and we all need to go to Syria.’.” We come across those kind of cases. We come across cases where a father will bring—

Chair

Just to be clear, because of what they have heard from CAGE.

Sara Khan

No.

Nusrat Ghani

I just want to focus on CAGE. Have you come across any organisations or families that have said, “We needed some support and we went to CAGE and they supported us, stopping ourselves being radicalised”?

Sara Khan

No.

Nusrat Ghani

Who do CAGE represent?

Chair

I should say they are witnesses after you, but you can answer that question. Do you know who they represent?

Sara Khan

They are best placed to answer that question.

Nusrat Ghani

You have no idea who they may represent, apart from themselves?

Sara Khan

We know that they had dealings with cases with people within schools who had a bad experience with Prevent. That is why I say we do have issues around the delivery of Prevent, not so much with the strategy, but about sections of where it is being delivered, and whether there is enough training for staff to recognise the difference between socially conservative views of Islam and extreme views. That is probably the answer I can give, really.

Nusrat Ghani

It is refreshing to have two women speaking on this issue. Too often we have men who represent this whole community trying to come forward and say, “We are involved in de-radicalisation”. Are you involved in any women in leadership positions within CAGE?

Kalsoom Bashir

I am not aware of CAGE. The whole reason why Inspire was formed was that this whole discourse was being dominated by men, and women felt that they were quite intimidated in those spaces, but they very much had a voice and they wanted it to be heard. So Inspire was set up around that time when we felt that we wanted to counter extremist attitudes within our community and, particularly, to amplify the voices of women that were not being heard. We have moved on from there, really.

Nusrat Ghani

Thank you. Sara, anything to add?

Sara Khan

No, I totally agree with that. I think also it is testimony to the fact that for a long time, with successive Governments, we have always engaged with the self-appointed unaccountable community leader. When we talk about Muslims in this country, we still often refer to “the Muslim community”. We are not a homogenous block. We are incredibly diverse. We have Muslims on the political left and the political right who hold incredibly diverse views and we still talk about Muslims as if they are represented by organisations. We are a voluntary civil society organisation and there are hundreds of other civil society organisations. To try to put Muslims into representative bodies is an insult, I would argue.

Chair

That is very helpful, thank you.

James Berry

The Prime Minister recently announced a £5 million fund to support a network of grass-roots organisations to challenge all forms of extremism and ideology, so effectively to create a counter-narrative. He highlighted your work, and having heard you today I can quite understand why, but what I want to know is whether you have applied for funding under that scheme.

Sara Khan

When No. 10 issued that press statement, we were not aware that we were going to be in it. We have not been approached by Government. We do not know what the requirements are to apply for that funding.

James Berry

That covers it. So the answer is probably no, then.

Sara Khan

Yes.

James Berry

Given your experience in the field—you are, I imagine, one of the kind of organisations the Prime Minister has in mind—what would you suggest the criteria should be for organisations applying for funding under that scheme?

Sara Khan

I am assuming they already have criteria, so they are best placed to answer that. I can only talk about what we stand for as an organisation.

James Berry

Yes, but I am just wondering what you think the criteria should be, because you can have all sorts of organisations who can apply for it, but obviously we want the right organisations to apply for it, so what would you say the criteria should be?

Sara Khan

I think if I was going to say there should be one criterion it should be that the group should be able to provide tangible evidence that it has been actively challenging extremism and it can demonstrate that. It is easy to issue a press statement condemning terrorism. What are you doing to produce social media videos? We have produced social media videos that have reached thousands of people in this country, particularly for young people. We have gone into Muslim communities and delivered training, and we have delivered training to about 1,000 teachers alone in the last few months. It is to demonstrate actively that you are rolling up your sleeves—you are not just sitting on the side lines—and that you are actively countering extremism and trying to counter radicalisation.

James Berry

Thank you. Just one more question, if I may. You mentioned the example of 16 year-olds being spoken to by a preacher, talking about Jews and Christians and the insult to Islam and so on. Then the Chairman asked you about banning orders. I accept that it is important to have a counter-narrative, but when people organise these events at which extremist speakers speak to young people, they do not provide a counter-narrative. They do not say, “Oh, we are hearing from this speaker, but we are also hearing from another speaker who will challenge that view,” and I cannot see how the Government could legislate to require every event organiser to produce someone giving a counter-narrative. So, absent banning orders, how do you suggest this counter-narrative is provided in equal measure to the kind of narrative that is promoting extremism?

Kalsoom Bashir

I think we can very much demand that within universities. I am aware that there have been events held at universities. At the university that I chaplain at, it had been brought to my attention when an extremist preacher was coming on to the premises. Rather than ban it, we worked with the Islamic Society and made it aware of the statements that this preacher had made around condoning female genital mutilation, domestic violence, the Jews, and said, “Is this the kind of preacher that you want? You either provide another speaker alongside him, because otherwise he is preaching to a closed group and it has got to be the students themselves scrutinising the speakers and being aware of what they are saying”. The work that we are doing when we are talking to parents is about empowering them to challenge the preachers that they see and hear, so if a group of women came to me and said, “There is an imam who said that 15 year-old girls need to be married and to undergo female genital mutilation, and that secular education is not important for them. We do not like him saying that. What can we do about it?” our answer to them would be, “You need to challenge it yourself.”

James Berry

But that is just dealing with university. People at universities going to hear talks do not normally report back to their parents what they might or might not hear. In the exact scenario you gave, what happened there? Did the Islamic Society proceed with the talk? Did it—

Kalsoom Bashir

It actually withdrew its invitation, but the message out in the community was, “Kalsoom has banned the talk,” and nobody came to me to ask me. It was, “She has banned the talk. She is working for Government. She is working for Prevent,” but it was the Islamic Society itself that withdrew its invitation to the speaker.

James Berry

So how could the Government, in legislation or guidance, ensure that there is a balancing speaker, so to speak, when someone with extremist views comes to give a talk?

Kalsoom Bashir

I think in public buildings, in universities, and general awareness. It is about groups like us throughout the country providing that support to groups to enable them to think more critically about who they are inviting. Just as we find speakers who promote racism to be toxic, we need encourage exactly the same climate where these speakers themselves are not invited.

James Berry

But we have a very long way to go.

Kalsoom Bashir

We have.

Naz Shah

I reiterate what Nusrat has just said: I admire women who put their heads above the parapet, certainly around these sensitive issues. In line with what you have just said about tangible evidence, Sara, can you explain to me what it was you did before 2011 in terms of tangible evidence, and what you did in delivery on this agenda before you received any funding?

Sara Khan

Thank you for that very nice comment. We set up Inspire in 2009. In that time, we went into cities like Portsmouth and Leeds, in Beeston in particular, of course, where three of the 7/7 bombers came from, and places like Redbridge, west London and delivered counter-radicalisation and gender empowerment programmes directly to Muslim women.

Naz Shah

Which organisation did you do that with?

Sara Khan

That is in partnership with the local authority. We are a voluntary organisation. The only way we would be able to deliver those projects is by doing it in partnership with the local authority, so they asked us to come in and deliver training to Muslim women. That is something that has consistently been ongoing for us—going into Muslim communities. The second was that in 2010, as you may remember, Anjem Choudary threatened to take empty coffins into Wootton Bassett. We were quite frustrated with the response from many of the male-led Muslim organisations, so we organised a memorial service at the National Memorial Arboretum to pay our respects to our armed forces in partnership with the Armed Forces Muslim Association. It was also supported by the Support Our Soldiers charity. It was the most widely read news item on the BBC that day. In 2011, we launched a campaign called Jihad Against Violence, looking at how, as Muslims, we need to tackle gender discrimination and violence against women and girls, and also terrorism that is conducted in the name of Islam. This was a declaration that we put up online. It was signed and endorsed by people from over 32 countries and was widely reported in the press. After our #MakingAStand campaign that we launched last year, The Sun backed our campaign. This is our campaign image and they used it, and it was very much, again countering narrative, where we were saying, “As British Muslims, we are British and we are Muslim. We are challenging the narrative of far right Islamist extremists.”

Chair

Very helpful, thank you.

Naz Shah

What I am trying to ask is that when you talk about tangible evidence, what kind of evidence base do you have? You are running lots of campaigns, but what actual tangible evidence do you bring to this Committee that you have impacted on the agenda of radicalisation? Where is your evidence base and how is that measured?

Sara Khan

In the last year, we have delivered—

Naz Shah

Sorry, prior to 2011, not in the last year. I am talking about prior to you receiving Government funding.

Sara Khan

I am happy to provide all the evaluation reports for our programmes that we have delivered, and information on how that has impacted on women and how women’s understanding of this issue has travelled in terms of their knowledge. We have all that information available to share with you. Empowering women, in particular, is something that we have been consistently doing, because I think there was some research that was released recently that showed that two thirds of 11 to 25 year-olds will go to their mothers if they have any concerns around radicalisation.

Chair

Was that was your research?

Sara Khan

No, it was not. It was some research done by, I think, the police.

Kalsoom Bashir

The police.

Naz Shah

We would interested in having those statistics and the reports of the evidence—

Chair

It would be very helpful if you could write to us with that information.

Naz Shah

Your website states you as independent. Would you agree it is fair to say that you are more than well supported by the Government? I will evidence that: you have had a comment piece by Theresa May herself in The Sun; you have had David Cameron, the Prime Minister, making speeches and mentioning the work of Inspire; you have preferential provider status; you have a sister who is in a senior position who advises the Home Secretary on all the things around radicalisation and Muslim issues which would raise some concerns; and, Kalsoom, you have been head of Prevent in Bristol, where you have done lots. Would you agree that it is fair to say that you have been more than well supported by Government and would you rephrase your independent status?

Sara Khan

No, I would disagree with that. We are a voluntary organisation that depends on the goodwill of donors. When we set up Inspire, we had no funding, no salaries and no office—we continue to have no office. The only two full-time salaries you have are for the people sitting in front of you. If we were so well funded and supported by the Government, we would have far more than we have. At the moment, we are inundated with requests from wider society.

Naz Shah

Can I refer to The Guardian article? You have been mentioned no less than I think it is three or four times in just one recent article, where you referred to as the face of David Cameron. Let me just quote it: “The Conservative government’s anti-radicalisation strategy, of which Khan is an important public face”.

Sara Khan

Those are the words of the journalist, they are not my words.

Naz Shah

But you had that yourself. Even if we look at the opinions of the journalists, the fact is that you had been mentioned by Theresa May herself, you have the Prime Minister mentioning you in his speeches and we have a senior adviser to the Home Secretary who happens to be your sister. Would you not agree that that would raise concerns about your conflict of interest when delivering on this agenda?

Sara Khan

Not at all.

Naz Shah

Let me explain. We have the Government who are making the legislation and then we have the schools and the statutory bodies that have to deliver that legislation. At the moment, all I can see in the third corner in this triangle is Inspire as the preferred provider. It is our Government’s job to prepare our statutory bodies like the schools to deliver on that agenda.

Sara Khan

This is the first time that I am hearing that we are a preferred provider. I was not aware of that. I cannot be blamed for the good work that we have done. We have done this work in a voluntary capacity when often we have had no funding. We believe in the things that we stand for as an organisation. Should I be attacked because of the great campaigning that we have done—

Chair

Please do not take this personally; this is just what we do to all witnesses.

Sara Khan

No, that is fine, but I am just saying it is almost as if there is an attitude that if, as a Muslim woman, you do good work, you have gone out of your way and you care about this country, it is wrong. If the Government like what we do, we take that as a compliment.

Chair

Ms Khan, I do not think that Naz Shah is doing this personally. She is raising issues that we will raise with all witnesses and we always do this.

Sara Khan

No, that is fine.

Naz Shah

Can I just reiterate my understanding? My understanding is it is very simple: the Government, we, make legislation—we are the legislators. We then support our statutory organisations to deliver on that. Now, as it is, we are not equipping our statutory bodies like the schools, and from that article, from your own evidence and from what we are seeing, Inspire is delivering to our schools, and it has to be a preferred provider to be getting Prevent money. Am I right that you have to have preferred provider status to access Prevent funding?

Sara Khan

I am honestly not aware, but all I know is that schools contact us.

Naz Shah

Okay, that is fine. Thank you.

Chair

Could we just put that point to Kalsoom Bashir? This is the point I think Naz Shah is also making: should it be a voluntary organisation doing this, no matter how independent? Should it not be the schools and the universities—a statutory body? Why are you having to fill this gap? Is it not an admission that the statutory bodies have failed? A brief answer, Kalsoom Bashir.

Kalsoom Bashir

I think the challenge that we are facing is unprecedented. I think the response, to be credible against the recruiting narrative of ISIS, has to be for Muslim organisations themselves. That is why we feel so strongly about the work that we are doing.

Naz Shah

We heard from Alison earlier on about WRAP training, and her quote was, “We have to be clear about intentions”, which is why she does not engage with a third organisation—an NGO. Her explanation was that she engages with statutory service providers. There is a concern from somebody who runs a school. As you can appreciate, I share that concern, which is why I asked again: is it appropriate and do you understand the concern around Inspire’s conflict of interest that I have highlighted? Do you understand that concern?

Chair

Sara Khan, a quick answer, because we have explored this in detail.

Sara Khan

If that was the case, I do not understand why we are being inundated by schools asking us to come in to talk about these issues, to highlight why Islam is different to ISIS, and to understand the difference between extremism and socially conservative views. I do not see it as a conflict of interest. You have talked about my sister. My sister is a Home Office official. I cannot comment on her.

Chair

Indeed. I am afraid we are going to have to leave it there because there is a vote, but we will return with Mr Loughton’s questioning. I am sorry; we have to vote, but we will come back. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. On resuming—

Tim Loughton

Can I come on to schools and the Prevent duty? I might just preface it by saying I think if it all—such is my experience of dealing with young people—were left to Government Departments and Government officials, we would be in a very parlous state, hence the need for third-party organisations who speak the language of the people we need to do something with. In terms of schools, you heard the evidence from Bethnal Green Academy and the criticism there was of the way the Prevent strategy has been passed on to schools. I think you have a role, employed by the Association of Schools and College Leaders, to help train teachers in this. Can you explain that role and tell us whether you think the Government could have done a better job with the materials and the strategy, and the way this has presented it to schools?

Kalsoom Bashir

Yes, absolutely. Going back to what we have been discussing, as an organisation we feel very strongly about tackling radicalisation and vulnerabilities within Muslim communities, and have rolled up our sleeves and got on and started doing the job that we are doing, because we feel very, very strongly about it. People make the criticism that the Government do not engage with community groups, but when they do, we get criticism for it as well, so I have to just point that out. In relation to schools, the statutory duty came in on 1 July and I have to say that schools have had to grapple with it, which is the reason why we had been inundated with requests. We have become very well known within this field because we have been operating a long time. The overwhelming response I have had from delivering training to staff has been very positive in response to the strategy. Teachers themselves have been impacted and misled by the misconceptions and myths that are out there in the media according to how this strategy impacts on them, and they are reassured by the fact that it is part of their safeguarding policies.

Tim Loughton

That suggests to me that the Government have not communicated very well to the schools what their duty—it is now a duty now, not a strategy—is, if they do not understand what the duty is, let alone what that duty involves in how they have to look out and be vigilant.

Sara Khan

The response to the training that they are now delivering—the WRAP training, which I had a role in delivering—has been very positive. The concerns that I have heard is that it is very short and that there is no provision in it for further questions and answers. Where schools are confused is about what is a socially conservative practice and what is extreme practice. We recognise that we have a duty, if we are concerned about behaviour, to have conversations with our colleagues to share those concerns and to go to designated leads, but what teachers are struggling with is the lack of resources that they have to be able to communicate that to people as well.

Tim Loughton

There was a suggestion from the head earlier, though, that the Prevent strategy and then the duty was not fit for purpose, in that it had been overtaken by events—it was almost redundant as soon as it came in—and the specific examples of the girls from Bethnal were not catered for within that strategy. Is that a fair comment? Are you having, effectively, to supplement the Government strategy in order to produce something that is workable, practical and appropriate?

Kalsoom Bashir

Yes. Within the case studies that WRAP has, there is just one case of a young Muslim girl that shows vulnerability to radicalisation, I have to say. So there is a case study. The facilitators behind WRAP have said that we will continually refresh those case studies as more and more cases emerge. There is a huge menu within those case studies and we have examples of vulnerabilities to far right extremism. Some schools we go to say, “We are not concerned about Islamist-inspired extremism; we are concerned about far right.” So the case studies reflect all that, but they do need to be constantly refreshed.

Tim Loughton

Are you having an influence on the Department for Education in terms of the refreshed guidance and constant updating it is putting out, or is it not putting anything out?

Kalsoom Bashir

I understand that there is a working group. Sara, did you attend that working group?

Sara Khan

I attended one meeting.

Kalsoom Bashir

There has been one meeting so far, but other than that we have not.

Tim Loughton

But you are the main players in communicating how schools should be putting this into practice. If you are only just aware there may have been a working group to refresh, it does not suggest that you are at the centre of helping to shape this.

Kalsoom Bashir

We are a voluntary organisation, with just the two of us, that feels very strongly about tackling radicalisation in our communities. Schools come to us directly. We do not tout for work. We have never written to schools asking them to come to us. We have become known—

Tim Loughton

I understand. I am absolutely not questioning your sincerity or the effectiveness of what you do. What I am questioning is whether you are being taken seriously enough and used appropriately by the DfE/Home Office in terms of the clear resource that you can bring to supplement what appears to be a gap in understanding and resources that feed into schools directly.

Kalsoom Bashir

We would be more than happy to contribute and share our experiences.

Sara Khan

In that one meeting that I attended, I said what teachers have told us and what kind of resources they need. I have made it very clear that teachers have come to us and said what they need more of.

Chair

Sara Khan, you wrote an open letter to girls that was read out in schools all over the country. You got 40,000 people viewing this letter online. I just want a brief answer here. Was there much contact after this letter was published?

Sara Khan

Contact with who?

Chair

You. Did a lot of people write in or send you emails?

Sara Khan

Yes. We had a very positive response.

Chair

How many people contacted you?

Sara Khan

I can’t remember off the top of my head. We had a lot of teachers contacting us and people on social media saying, “Thank you. This is the first time someone has explained to us the difference between Islamist extremism and Islam.” People said they were going to read it out in their assemblies and so forth. I can’t recall how many.

Chair

But you had a lot of contact following the publication?

Sara Khan

Yes. We had contact from abroad as well, with people saying, “This is a great letter”.

Victoria Atkins

I want to pick up the allegation that there is somehow a conflict of interest. If I have the chronology right, you were founded in 2009, so before the coalition Government.

Sara Khan

Yes.

Victoria Atkins

Who decides how you campaign and on what you campaign?

Sara Khan

We do.

Victoria Atkins

Who decides which schools you go into, who you talk to, and so on?

Sara Khan

We do. We react very much to need. What we find quite frustrating, as a very small organisation that is under-resourced, is the number of requests we have coming from schools. We have to say no to a lot of them. Kalsoom was up in Dewsbury recently, and we travel a lot to get to schools. People are coming to us and ringing us and saying, “Look, we have had a 13 year-old girl who has tried to leave for ISIS. The media hasn’t got hold of the story. Please can you come in and deliver training?” and we have done. We were in a school last week where, despite the fact that people say the Prevent duty is about closing down the debate, we were encouraging children, saying, “We want you to talk; let’s talk about these issues,” and we got positive feedback from the school saying the discussion can continue until the end of the day.

Victoria Atkins

So when it is being said that the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have praised you, is it not the case that they are praising what they see as good work on your part, just as they would cite campaigners against FGM who do a good job?

Sara Khan

Of course, and we feel that the Government should be engaging with groups like ours. We say on the one hand that the Government need to engage more with Muslim groups, so when Muslim groups like us roll up our sleeves and do something, should not Government engage with groups like ours? Should not the Government support campaigns that we run?

Victoria Atkins

Another question. You have mentioned in your evidence some of the very oppressive things that have been said to young girls and women about expectations placed on them by people who run counter to the ideas that you espouse. How are you treated as women in this world that you are describing?

Sara Khan

I would say that we have had people and Muslim groups who have actively tried to sabotage our work. We have had groups that have maliciously contacted schools and tried to prevent us from delivering sessions with pupils, when all we are doing is coming in and talking to pupils about standing for human rights and speaking against extremism. We have had Muslim organisations and groups try to sabotage our events. For example, we were going into Cardiff to deliver training to women and they put out a five-page smear document against us accusing us of everything, and sending it out to all the mosques actively to try to discourage women from attending. One of their key issues was that we were going to exert influence and encourage women to exert influence in mosques and communities because that was one of the aims of our campaign. They said, “We can’t possibly have this happening”. As women you face not just that, but it is very misogynistic. There is that kind of sabotage-type of work that is going on, but on a wider scale we have taken a lot of personal abuse, in the sense of threats from ISIS sympathisers. I have had to have police patrol cars driving round my house three times a day. I have had to install a fireproof and bombproof letterbox. That is the kind of thing that you are working in, and on top of that you get accused of being an Islamophobes and native informant when all you are trying to do is to counter radicalisation—as mothers we feel very passionate about this—and to protect our country from acts of terror.

Mr Winnick

Even one young person lost to religious fascism is a setback—that goes without saying—but to take the position in the round, would I not be right in saying that the large majority of Muslim females of school age and in their first years at university are more likely, as a result of being born here or brought here at a very early age, to be inclined to what could be described as British values of democracy, and the things that young females tend to incline to in countries where they are allowed the freedom to do so? Would that be right?

Kalsoom Bashir

I didn’t quite understand the question.

Mr Winnick

Is it not the case that although there are some who are won over for a while at least to jihadism and religious fascism, the large majority of young Muslim females are more inclined, as I was trying to put it, to Western or British values? Would that be the position?

Kalsoom Bashir

Absolutely. It is a minority of young women who are travelling, but there are others who are showing sympathy and empathy towards going over. A lot of our work is around gender equality. Last week, when we were in a school in London, it was about showcasing positive role models to challenge the notion that women should be in the private sphere and really exposing ISIS ideology for what it is. We were showcasing the counter-narrative to that: what religious texts actually say about the role of women, how we interpret it, and how that conflicts with ISIS ideology.

Mr Winnick

So what I am saying—you will agree or disagree, but I think you will agree—is that it is a very limited number, however unfortunate it is, who are prone to this sort of poisonous propaganda—that women are basically inferior, that they only should be the helpmeets of their menfolk, and that violence and mass murder is justified against alleged crusaders and against Judaism.

Kalsoom Bashir

It is. Absolutely. It is, but it is very real, nevertheless, and we have to challenge it.

Mr Winnick

Would you say that for those who are prone to such poison, it is because of indoctrination at home or in the mosque, or various other reasons arising from their own personalities?

Kalsoom Bashir

I think there are specific circumstances within the home that could make somebody vulnerable. There is a narrative out there that says that we are living in a country that we should not be living in. There is religious illiteracy as well. It is a combination of factors.

Mr Winnick

Religious illiteracy being a total distortion?

Kalsoom Bashir

It is religious illiteracy about not having a sound understanding of your own religion. What we are saying is that although mosques are not radicalising young people, they could do a whole lot more. If young women, particularly, are made to feel unwelcome in mosques and that there is nothing there for them, they are even more vulnerable to going online and looking for those answers around identity and belonging, and there are more than enough people out there who will offer them those options.

Mr Winnick

And you agree with that presumably?

Sara Khan

Yes.

Chair

As far as social media is concerned, you have been very forceful in saying we need to be more aggressive. Who should be more aggressive? Very quickly, who should it be? Should it be the police? It clearly cannot be the Government. Should it be yourselves? Who should be going along there to put out the counter-narrative?

Kalsoom Bashir

It has to be community-led on social media. ISIS has a cause and it is using social media.

Chair

You yourself have said that the Muslim community is very big. Who should lead it?

Kalsoom Bashir

It has to be the communities themselves. In a very limited way, we have started that work online. We have young people who are developing resources that they can share on social media. We have a resource like “A Community Response”, which is Muslim communities saying it for themselves.

Chair

So it should be community-led, not from Government agencies?

Kalsoom Bashir

It has to communities-led to be credible.

Chair

Very good. Thank you.

Stuart C. McDonald

Is this your #MakingAStand campaign we are talking about here? Could you tell us what you think the impact of that has been?

Sara Khan

We went into nine or 10 cities across the UK. We launched the campaign after ISIS declared their so-called caliphate and Muslim women were coming to us and saying, “We have to do something.” We had the launch event last year; 100 women came from across the country. Then they said to us, “This is not enough. We need you to come in and teach counter-narratives. Show us what can make people vulnerable to radicalisation.” So we went in there. If you go on to our website, you will see something called MAS—the #MakingAStand wall—which has about 25 video testimonials of how #MakingAStand impacted on them. Two women in Birmingham went off and set up their own local organisation because they were so inspired by what they had heard at the #MakingAStand campaign. Their own local organisation wanted to provide services to women and to do more to counter extremism. We have had women who have gone off and set up talks and events and encouraged them to say, “Our voices matter in Muslim communities. We feel it is very male-dominated. We want to do more.” So we have had a very positive response of women saying they want to do more. We have also had women who have contacted us and said, “Thank you for coming and speaking to us.” I recall one woman ringing me and saying, “My son had come back from university. He had been spouting Salafi jihadist narratives. If I had not gone on to your course and on to your programme, I would never have had the confidence to challenge him, but I did challenge him and he listened to what I was saying.” Again, it is that one person that you have mentioned. If we stop even one person, we feel we have achieved something. So there is a lot of testimony. Women themselves have said how #MakingAStand impacted on them.

Stuart C. McDonald

In terms of social media, do you think folk are confident enough and feel equipped to take their battle online?