Oral evidence: Countering extremism, HC 428Tuesday 19 January 2016
Oral evidence, 19 January 2016.
Witness
Konika Dhar gave evidence. Q120 Q121 Q122 Q123 Q124 Q125 Q126 Q127 Q128 Q129 Q130 Q131 Q132 Q133 Q134 Q135 Q136 Q137 Q138 Q139 Q140 Q141 Q142 Q143 Q144 Q145 Q146 Q147 Q148 Q149 Q150 Q151 Q152 Q153 Q154 Q155 Q156 Q157 Q158 Q159 Q160 Q161 Q162 Q163 Q164 Q165 Q166 Q167 Q168 Q169 Q170 Q171 Q172 Q173 Q174 Q175 Q176 Q177 Q178 Q179 Q180 Q181 Q182 Q183 Q184 Q185 Q186 Q187 Q188 Q189 Q190 Q191 Q192 Q193 Q194 Q195 Q196 Q197 Q198 Q199 Q200 Q201 Q202 Q203 Q204 Q205 Q206 Q207 Q208 Q209 Q210 Q211 Q212 Q213 Q214 Q215 Q216 Q217 Q218 Q219 Q220 Q221 Q222 Q223 Q224 Q225 Q226 Q227 Q228 Q229 Q230 Q231 Q232 Q233 Q234 Q235 Q236 Q237 Q238 Q239 Q240 Q241 Q242 Q243 Q244 Q245 Q246 Q247 Q248 Q249 Q250 Q251 Q252 Q253 Q254 Q255 Q256 Q257 Q258 Q259 Q260 Q261 Q262 Q263 Q264 Q265 Q266 Q267 Q268 Q269 Q270 Q271 Q272 Q273 Q274 Q275 Q276 Q277 Q278 Q279 Q280 Q281 Q282 Q283 Q284 Q285 Q286 Q287 Q288 Q289 Q290 Q291 Q292 Q293 Q294 Q295 Q296 Q297 Q298 Q299 Q300 Q301 Q302 Q303 Q304 Q305 Q306 Q307 Q308 Q309 Q310 Q311 Q312 Q313 Q314 Q315 Q316 Q317 Q318 Q319 Q320 Q321 Q322 Q323 Q324 Q325 Q326 Q327 Q328 Q329 Q330 Q331 Q332 Q333 Q334 Q335 Q336 Q337 Q338 Q339 Q340 Q341 Q342 Q343 Q344 Q345 Q346 Q347 Q348 Q349 Q350 Q351 Q352 Q353 Q354 Q355 Q356 Q357 Q358 Q359 Q360 Q361 Q362 Q363 Q364 Q365 Q366 Q367 Q368 Q369 Q370 Q371 Q372 Q373 Q374 Q375 Q376 Q377 Q378 Q379 Q380 Q381 Q382 Q383 Q384 Q385 Q386 Q387 Q388 Q389 Q390 Q391 Q392 Q393 Q394 Q395 Q396 Q397 Q398 Q399 Q400 Q401 Q402 Q403 Q404 Q405 Q406 Q407 Q408 Q409 Q410 Q411 Q412 Q413 Q414 Q415 Q416 Q417 Q418 Q419 Q420 Q421 Q422 Q423 Q424 Q425 Q426 Q427 Q428 Q429 Q430 Q431 Q432 Q433 Q434 Q435 Q436 Q437 Q438 Q439 Q440 Q441 Q442 Q443 Q444 Q445 Q446 Q447 Q448 Q449 Q450 Q451 Q452 Q453 Q454 Q455 Q456 Q457 Q458 Q459 Q460 Q461 Q462 Q463 Q464 Q465 Q466 Q467 Q468 Q469 Q470 Q471 Q472 Q473 Q474 Q475 Q476 Q477 Q478 Q479 Q480 Q481 Q482 Q483 Q484 Q485 Q486 Q487 Q488 Q489 Q490 Q491 Q492 Q493 Q494 Q495 Q496 Q497 Q498 Q499 Q500 Q501 Q502 Q503 Q504 Q505 Q506 Q507 Q508 Q509 Q510 Q511 Q512 Q513 Q514 Q515 Q516 Q517 Q518 Q519 Q520 Q521 Q522 Q523 Q524 Q525 Q526 Q527 Q528 Q529 Q530 Q531 Q532 Q533 Q534 Q535 Q536 Q537 Q538 Q539 Q540 Q541 Q542 Q543 Q544 Q545 Q546 Q547 Q548 Q549 Q550 Q551 Q552 Q553 Q554 Q555 Q556 Q557 Q558 Q559 Q560 Q561 Q562 Q563 Q564 Q565 Q566 Q567 Q568 Q569 Q570 Q571 Q572 Q573 Q574 Q575 Q576 Q577 Q578 Q579 Q580 Q581 Q582 Q583 Q584 Q585 Q586 Q587 Q588 Q589 Q590 Q591 Q592 Q593 Q594 Q595 Q596 Q597 Q598 Q599 Q600 Q601 Q602 Q603 Q604 Q605 Q606 Q607 Q608 Q609 Q610 Q611 Q612 Q613 Q614 Q615 Q616 Q617 Q618 Q619 Q620 Q621 Q622 Q623 Q624 Q625 Q626 Q627 Q628 Q629 Q630 Q631 Q632 Q633 Q634 Q635 Q636 Q637 Q638 Q639 Q640 Q641 Q642 Q643 Q644 Q645 Q646 Q647 Q648 Q649 Q650 Q651 Q652 Q653 Q654 Q655 Q656 Q657 Q658 Q659 Q660 Q661 Q662 Q663 Q664 Q665 Q666 Q667 Q668 Q669 Q670 Q671 Q672 Q673 Q674 Q675 Q676 Q677 Q678 Q679 Q680 Q681 Q682 Q683 Q684 Q685 Q686 Q687 Q688 Q689 Q690 Q691 Q692 Q693 Q694 Q695 Q696 Q697 Q698 Q699 Q700 Q701 Q702 Q703 Q704 Q705 Q706 Q707 Q708 Q709 Q710 Q711 Q712 Q713 Q714 Q715 Q716 Q717 Q718 Q719 Q720 Q721 Q722 Q723 Q724 Q725 Q726 Q727 Q728 Q729 Q730 Q731 Q732 Q733 Q734 Q735 Q736 Q737 Q738 Q739 Q740 Q741 Q742 Q743 Q744 Q745 Q746 Q747 Q748 Q749 Q750 Q751 Q752 Q753 Q754 Q755 Q756 Q757 Q758 Q759 Q760 Q761 Q762 Q763 Q764 Q765 Q766 Q767 Q768 Q769 Q770 Q771 Q772 Q773 Q774 Q775 Q776 Q777 Q778 Q779 Q780 Q781 Q782 Q783 Q784 Q785 Q786 Q787 Q788 Q789 Q790 Q791 Q792 Q793 Q794 Q795 Q796 Q797 Q798 Q799 Q800 Q801 Q802 Q803 Q804 Q805 Q806 Q807 Q808 Q809 Q810 Q811 Q812 Q813 Q814 Q815 Q816 Q817 Q818 Q819 Q820 Q821 Q822 Q823 Q824 Q825 Q826 Q827 Q828 Q829 Q830 Q831 Q832
Chair
Could I call the Committee to order and refer everyone present to the Register of Members’ Financial Interests where the interests of members of this Committee have been noted. Are there any more interests to declare? I welcome Konika Dhar to give evidence in our inquiry on counter-terrorism. Thank you very much for coming to see us today. The Committee is interested in the narrative of your brother, Siddhartha Dhar, and you have indeed made some public statements about your concerns about him and his welfare. What happened to him that changed him from—your description—a fun-loving, normal man, into someone who has appeared on television and on videos carrying an assault weapon and threatening the lives of individuals? What do you think was the most important factor that changed him from being the brother that you knew and loved—and of course he is still your brother—to the person that you saw on these videos?
Konika Dhar
It is quite hard to say. Given the timespan that we are talking about, he has obviously been a convert for many years. It would be hard to say at what point he changed, what the reason was, and I think all I can say is that the memories that I have of him are nothing that I am seeing today, and that is what is quite tragic. I mentioned in previous interviews that, yes, he was fun-loving and very laid back, easygoing, very friendly with everyone, and I think it is quite hard for me to even know within myself what it was that triggered him to become the person that he is today. I honestly wish I knew. I think I could—
Chair
Was it over a period of time, because he started—I understand from previous interviews that you have had—following his conversion to Islam; your family is from the Hindu faith, is that right?
Konika Dhar
That is correct.
Chair
He converted to Islam presumably without anyone’s knowledge or consent?
Konika Dhar
This is the problem, because everything, from my observation, was not done so much in secrecy but we were left in the dark with his journey to becoming who he is today. I myself had very little knowledge at the time and I was not really involved in the organisations that he was involved in or who we were seeing. To be honest, everything came to me as quite a shock. One of the first articles in The Washington Post was for me the realisation that, yes, he had been brainwashed. If you look at the circumstances around his conversion, he was told certain things at the time, for example: “Only Muslims can go to heaven and you can die at any time. There is no point in delaying converting.” To me that echoed that he was put in an atmosphere of force and somebody at that time had been responsible to convert him. I am not trying to point blame at anyone.
Chair
Was it individuals? Do you think it was perhaps the use of the internet? Was it the mosque he went to?
Konika Dhar
Because this happened over 10 years ago I don’t think it was the internet as such, I would say probably more the individuals that were involved. Again, I was not really told how he converted or when it happened until much later, in fact.
Chair
When did you last see your brother, Ms Dhar?
Konika Dhar
Over a year ago, September 2014.
Chair
In person?
Konika Dhar
Yes, in person.
Chair
At that stage, presumably, he was quite different from the brother that you—
Konika Dhar
Well, this is it; I think people need to understand that I do not live with my brother. He is a grown man and I have not lived with him in about seven to 10 years. I do have a lack of knowledge in this area because I do not live with him. I do not know what activities he is involved in but, yes, the last time I did see him was in September 2014 and he seemed to me to be okay. Obviously, I was always aware that he was a practising Muslim but he kept his political movements private and—
Chair
He did not discuss it with you at all?
Konika Dhar
No, no. To be honest, I was not even aware that he went by another name until he had left. My instant reaction was, “Abu who? I don’t know that person.” I just know my brother as being the person I grew up with.
Chair
You have said in past interviews that, when he met you, he had ordered you and your mother to cover yourselves up by wearing a burka; is that right?
Konika Dhar
He has always wanted us to embrace the Islamic faith and there have been several statements made similar to that by him, as well as others, and I think towards the end it became more jokey because—again, it has been a long time—we have remained who we are and he has been constantly trying to carry on his faith. Whatever he would say we would brush it off. I never took it seriously, to be honest.
Chair
This has obviously happened to other families, because we know that 700 people have gone from Britain to Syria and others have converted. We have had evidence from mothers, who have come before this Committee in our last inquiry, who told us that their sons have suddenly decided to go and fight in Syria. Was there anyone that you and your family could have turned to for help in those circumstances? Did you think of going to the authorities or to anyone else to seek counselling or assistance?
Konika Dhar
I think that is a very good question. This is one thing that needs to be addressed because for me personally it was very difficult to know who to turn to. I did not know whether to contact the police, whether to go via the media or speak to family members. I think that probably explains my abrupt first interview. It was a bit of a shock.
Chair
Do you think it would have been good to have an organisation—
Konika Dhar
Yes, definitely. Absolutely.
Chair
—not necessarily the anti-terrorist hotline, which exists at the moment for people to ring up, because you did not know that your brother necessarily was a terrorist? You needed some organisation to go to that had your confidence, where you could have shared these concerns?
Konika Dhar
Not only an organisation but a procedure to follow because I don’t know what the steps are. I have never been in this situation before; I have never known anybody to go through this, so I think it is important for other families to know what the appropriate steps are that one needs to take in order to get their loved one back, who is the right person to contact. I thought I did the right thing. I hope it is but I am just a bit wary whether I am making things worse or not. I am not trying to. I miss my brother very much and I am trying to make him realise that none of this is him.
Chair
Of course. One final question: the Prime Minister’s statement yesterday when he wanted to encourage Muslim mothers in particular to learn English, and I do not know whether you followed it—
Konika Dhar
I did, yes.
Chair
What the Prime Minister was saying was that he felt there was a lack of integration, and one of the problems was that some Muslim mothers did not speak English and, therefore, they needed to do so to try to encourage their children not to go or to encourage them to stay. What do you think of what the Prime Minister said? Do you agree with him?
Konika Dhar
I thought it was quite interesting. I did agree at first but then I also shared the view of another Member who suggested that the focus should not just be on Muslim women—
Chair
Baroness Warsi, I think.
Konika Dhar
Yes, that is right. Although I did agree with the Prime Minister’s view, I do also take a balanced approach that the focus should not just be on Muslim women.
Chair
You think there is a language barrier that prevents integration?
Konika Dhar
Definitely, yes.
Mr Winnick
Continuing on that question for a moment, the Prime Minister spoke about Muslim women not speaking English; would it be right to say that that is not uncommon among perhaps elderly people from the Indian subcontinent, so it may well include Hindus and Sikhs? In your view, am I right that it is not exclusively about Muslims?
Konika Dhar
You could suggest that but I don’t think I have enough knowledge in that department to comment any further. You could suggest that, yes.
Mr Winnick
I ask because earlier in the last century and the latter part of the 19th century, people who came from Eastern Europe, Russia and Poland, certainly those of an elderly age—and I have some sensitivity in speaking about the elderly age—did not speak English, and in some cases did not try and, indeed, their children and grandchildren in many instances became academics in this country and taught English. Would you agree that the trend tends to be the same with people coming over?
Konika Dhar
I am not sure if I agree or disagree with that entirely. I do think it is a bit dangerous to assume that, just because you know the language, you will automatically integrate. That would be unfair to say as well. I would leave it at that.
Mr Winnick
Coming to the more immediate issue, have you been in touch with your brother and family since the events of his moving out of the United Kingdom?
Konika Dhar
I think I did state in my previous interviews that I have made numerous attempts to contact him and I think I have only managed to have two responses. That is all. It has been very difficult to maintain a relationship and contact is virtually impossible now.
Mr Winnick
On his conversion, not only to Islam but to the most warped, poisonous aspect of that religion—as you know, the overwhelming majority of Muslim people totally denounce as heresy what your brother is doing—do you think he was influenced in any way in going down that road of treachery and murder—influenced by various people who indoctrinated him?
Konika Dhar
Sorry, I just need to understand the question. Do I think that he was influenced?
Mr Winnick
Yes, were there people in the community in the locality that influenced him in that direction?
Konika Dhar
It is hard for me to comment because I have only been aware of the organisation itself; I still did not know what the organisation stands for until now. Yes, I think it would be fair to say that he was influenced.
Mr Winnick
It is interesting that you said somewhere that at one time, when he was part of a Hindu family tradition and not particularly religious in any way, he was teasing you because you did not want to wear modern dress—whether that was justified or not—and it ended up by him telling you when he converted to the extremism of another religion that you should cover yourself up and not be dressed as you are at the moment before this Committee. It does seem a total reversion. I will put it differently; it seems a total difference from his earlier stance to what happened?
Konika Dhar
Sorry, do you mean in terms of what happened?
Mr Winnick
Yes, when he was teasing you for not dressing in a modern way.
Konika Dhar
I see. Yes, this is precisely it. I feel as though his personality does not correlate with who he is today. So, yes, when my older brother was much younger, the focus was not on, “Oh, cover yourself up.” It was more, as we said before, yes.
Mr Winnick
My last question is somewhat personal. Considering what he is doing and the action that presumably he is a party to, in your heart can you ever forgive him for what he has done in betraying the family and obviously the country in which he lived?
Konika Dhar
I am still holding to the firm belief that what I am seeing is not him and I have not had verification otherwise. I have said before that if it is then—
Mr Winnick
It is a difficult one?
Konika Dhar
Yes, it is.
Mr Winnick
In your position I would have the same difficulty as you have.
Konika Dhar
It is the realisation that: is he really my brother if he has done this? I cannot accept that he would ever do that. I cannot accept it. I still do not believe that. I don’t know.
Victoria Atkins
Ms Dhar, thank you very much for coming to the Committee to give evidence. These questions are aimed at helping us understand a little more about the timeframes in the hope it will help the larger issue of recruiting to extremism. When was your brother first thinking about converting to Islam? I mean the religion, not the extreme version.
Konika Dhar
Sorry, just the religion not the extreme version?
Victoria Atkins
Yes, just the religion, so how many years roughly?
Konika Dhar
From my memory, I think he first took an interest in his mid to late teens.
Victoria Atkins
After that initial interest, when did members of your family sense that perhaps he was going on a particular path with the religion and his interpretation of it?
Konika Dhar
I do not want to speak on anyone else’s behalf. I will just speak on my behalf. It is hard to say. The way I see it there was a long transition period. In the beginning for me it was nothing to be worried about because he was still engaging in normal activities. Probably early 20s is when he began to take his religion more seriously.
Victoria Atkins
To help us, between the first signs of interest and then the second stage you have just described, how long a period was that roughly?
Konika Dhar
It cannot have been that long. I would say maybe a year or two.
Victoria Atkins
This was pre social media as we recognise it in 2016?
Konika Dhar
Yes.
Victoria Atkins
From that second stage, how long was it until he became brainwashed, to use your phrase?
Konika Dhar
Again, this is hard to pinpoint. I know this may come as a shock but I remember somebody saying to me, “I saw your brother on the TV” and they showed me a picture. I said, “That is not my brother.” They said, “No, it is.” I said, “No, it looks nothing like him.” My immediate reaction was I did not recognise him because he had changed so much; I mean physically, his speech, his demeanour, everything had changed. That happened probably three years ago. I am sorry but it is really hard to answer because, bearing in mind I have not been at home myself, I was at university for three years so I haven’t lived with my brother for three years. There was a gap and he also moved out when he was 23, so I haven’t lived with him in a long time. I would say there were definitely signs that maybe someone ought to have picked up on, but there was nothing too threatening to make me think, “Okay, this is on the road to something destructive,” otherwise I definitely think I or someone else would have stepped in.
Victoria Atkins
I am going to come back to the signs in a moment. I just want to finish the timeframe. So three years ago, roughly, he was appearing brainwashed and you were beginning to worry?
Konika Dhar
Yes.
Victoria Atkins
When did he go to Syria?
Konika Dhar
This was about a year ago.
Victoria Atkins
Before he went to Syria, what was his day-to-day life? Was he working? Was he studying?
Konika Dhar
He was quite happy keeping his private life private and we were quite happy to respect that about him. There was very little that he would let on, to be honest. As far as I am aware—
Victoria Atkins
Did your mum not want to know what he was doing? Most mums want to know what their children are doing.
Konika Dhar
I know, but I am his younger sister and unfortunately I did not share that much of a close relationship to know that much information.
Victoria Atkins
You just said about signs. Could you help us with what you meant? You said there were signs of him going on a very dark path. What were those signs?
Konika Dhar
Maybe I should rephrase that. I think there were signs that I knew something wasn’t right in his personality. [Pause] I don’t think I am comfortable addressing that just yet.
Chair
We know that he left the country with his wife and four children. That is correct, is it?
Konika Dhar
I believe so, yes.
Chair
Were you present at his wedding?
Konika Dhar
No, I was not.
Chair
Had you met his children as an aunt might?
Konika Dhar
Yes.
Chair
You had. When you met his wife, was she someone who you felt had embraced Islam in the same way as he had?
Konika Dhar
Again, I don’t unfortunately share a very strong relationship with either of them just yet but I would say from my short encounters she was definitely conservative and devout like my brother.
Chair
You did not know her before they got married?
Konika Dhar
No, I did not.
Chair
What is the age difference between yourself and your brother?
Konika Dhar
It is three and a half years.
Nusrat Ghani
Ms Dhar, it is very brave of you to come forward and it is incredibly useful for us to hear your story. It is so rare that we have sisters, mothers, people that are connected to people that go overseas and do this, so thank you so much for coming forward. I have been reading all of the press that you have been doing and they do not always get it right. You said today to Mr Winnick that you have spoken to your brother just twice since he has left; is that correct?
Konika Dhar
Yes, I agree with that because I have been misquoted on several occasions.
Nusrat Ghani
You might have been misquoted on that, so just to clarify?
Konika Dhar
To clarify, I have made several attempts to speak with my brother. In terms of what communication, I think what I was referring to were just email exchanges, which have just been twice.
Nusrat Ghani
You have said to the press recently that you believe your brother is a good man; is that correct?
Konika Dhar
Uh-huh.
Nusrat Ghani
And that in the exchange that you had with him that he is happy with the life that he is living; is that correct?
Konika Dhar
That is right.
Nusrat Ghani
I just want to try and explore how he is living his life, as you still believe him to be a good man. As he is over supporting Daesh, he is probably engaged in enslaving, in beheading—
Konika Dhar
I hope not.
Nusrat Ghani
—and in raping. But this is what Daesh does. This is what Daesh does. Over 5,000 Yazidi women have been enslaved by them and there have been recent reports where if they are able to sell women as slaves that they do so; if they are beyond that age they tend to kill them. One of the women that was giving evidence—there is a big article in the Daily Mail about a number of Yazidi women that have come forward to give evidence—states, “The saddest thing that I remember was this little girl, 12 years old, and they raped her without mercy”. These are the activities that your brother is engaged in; do you still believe he is a good man?
Konika Dhar
This is quite a sensitive topic to talk about. My opinion will always be biased because he is my brother. I don’t want to believe that he is who he is today and I stand by that. I still—[Pause]
Chair
But of course, you utterly condemn all that you have heard Nusrat Ghani talk about.
Konika Dhar
Mmm. I mean, I still don’t want to associate the two, the activities that Nusrat has just described, with my brother. I know that may be hard for many people to believe, but that is because he is my brother and as far as I am concerned I grew up with a different person and I will remain with that belief that that is the person who I know.
Nusrat Ghani
But if young people are going over to support Daesh, that is what they are engaged in. We must make people understand that when they go over to fight on behalf of Daesh, they are involved in rape and pillage and beheading. There is nothing else over there for them apart from this. You have also said that you would like your brother to come home. Having heard what he might be involved with, with Daesh, do you still want your brother to come home?
Konika Dhar
I think it is a bit wishful thinking, and I am aware that he may not come home, he probably won’t come home, but the way I see it is I don’t want to give up on him, and I think that is a mistake that many families can make—if they give up on their loved one who has gone out. I think I said that I wanted him home because I am determined to have him return home for the person that I remember, and if that can’t be done then maybe that is just something I have to accept, but I feel I have not reached that point yet.
Nusrat Ghani
Do you believe he can be rehabilitated? It is important because we need to understand what family members believe, because if we do have a large number of people going over to fight on behalf of Daesh we have to understand if there is confidence that they can be rehabilitated or not.
Konika Dhar
I would like to think so, yes.
Nusrat Ghani
And you would still sit down and have Sunday lunch with him, knowing that he might have been engaged in these sorts of activities for a number of years?
Konika Dhar
I would be appalled if—do you know, this is so hard.
Nusrat Ghani
It is difficult.
Chair
If you are uncomfortable in answering a question, that is fine; we will accept that.
Konika Dhar
I would like to get right what I am saying at the same time, but I don’t want my message to be misinterpreted. I know what I want; I don’t know what to say. I honestly would like to see him home but I think I have accepted the reality that he won’t now, so I would like to consider other options, whether he can live somewhere else peacefully and not necessarily in—
Nusrat Ghani
Maybe if I turn the question around, it may be a little bit easier. If it is difficult for us to assess why people are radicalised, do you think once they are radicalised and they are engaged in criminal activity, if they knew the damage they were doing to their family and that they would not be accepted back to a safe country, that that might deter some people from going overseas and being involved in violence? Do you think that maybe they feel that they can just come home, that they can live back with their families, that they can spend a number of years doing these horrific things and they can just return home and carry on as normal? Do you think that if people understood that that was not possible, in some cases that might stop people going away in the first place?
Konika Dhar
Yes, I would agree.
Chair
Thank you. In answer to Nusrat Ghani, let us be clear: you do not believe your brother is involved in these activities, or are you in denial that he might be involved?
Konika Dhar
I don’t want to speculate, to be honest. I would rather have verification on whether it is him or not and I would prefer to comment on that once I have—
Chair
And you feel you have not had that verification yet?
Konika Dhar
Is it official? Has it been confirmed? I don’t know.
Chair
No, I am just asking you. We don’t know. Nobody has rung you up and confirmed anything officially?
Konika Dhar
I wouldn’t know; if no—my guess is as good as anyone else’s and I would like to believe that my brother is not involved in that, and if he is then—[Sighs].
Chair
But you accept what Nusrat Ghani has just said—that these are the activities that we have all heard Daesh are involved in?
Konika Dhar
Perhaps, but focusing on my brother I want to know what he is involved in. I am not really concerned with anyone else. I am sorry if that sounds selfish.
Chair
No, we understand that.
Konika Dhar
Okay.
Mr Jayawardena
A quick follow-on line of questioning, if I may. My colleague, Ms Ghani, was talking about rehabilitation and talking about a deterrent and people understanding that they cannot come back and live a normal life if they do these grotesque deeds. Depersonalising it for a moment, do you believe that the authorities should look to impose prison sentences on returning jihadists?
Konika Dhar
I would prefer there to not be a prison sentence completely for the likes of my brother. The reason I say that is because then there will be no option but for them to stay there. Why would they return if they would be in prison? They won’t.
Mr Jayawardena
On that basis you believe that these crimes should go unpunished?
Konika Dhar
I think this is hard for me to answer. I do not think I can answer this.
Mr Jayawardena
Perhaps depersonalising it again and not thinking solely of your brother, do you believe that it is right for the British public, the United Kingdom as a whole, to be at risk from people who are self-confessed terrorists?
Konika Dhar
No. Absolutely—I do agree that they should criminalise and punish the wrongdoers. Yes, I do.
Mr Jayawardena
Thank you.
James Berry
First of all, thank you very much for coming in and for the bravery with which you are giving your evidence. I want to pick up on a few points on what Ms Atkins was asking you about. When did your brother leave the family home?
Konika Dhar
Do you mean to live—
James Berry
Yes—move out from home. What age?
Konika Dhar
This is a bit vague, but 23 or 25.
James Berry
So he had already converted to Islam?
Konika Dhar
Oh yes, definitely.
James Berry
You are a Hindu family; even just converting to Islam is quite a big deal. Quite unusual.
Konika Dhar
That is right.
James Berry
Regardless of how radical that brand of Islam is, so that must have been quite a big deal at home?
Konika Dhar
Yes, bearing in mind I consider our family to be quite liberal, it was definitely hard to accept but we were very accepting of it at the time. I still am. I am not saying that he can’t be Muslim. I just want him to be happy. I don’t mind him practising what he wants peacefully, so—I still don’t have an issue with it.
James Berry
Do you have other siblings?
Konika Dhar
Um—
James Berry
Do you have other siblings?
Konika Dhar
No, I heard. I just wondered what relevance it would be to answer.
James Berry
I was just wondering. I will tell you the context. We have heard evidence from previous witnesses talking about radicalisation. The way they have answered questions we have asked about how people have become radicalised, they have said things like, “There were social problems. There were family problems.” But in your case you seem like a very nice young lady and I am sure you have come from a very nice family, and I am trying to work out what on earth would make someone—your brother in your household—turn out the way he has. It is very difficult for us to understand that, so that is why I am trying to ask a bit more about your family.
Konika Dhar
Yes, so I have my brother and I have an older sister.
James Berry
Can you shed any light on that? Was there anything else going on in his life that would have encouraged him to go down this path?
Konika Dhar
I would not underestimate the influence that his friends had on him, growing up. Again I don’t mean to penalise anyone or put blame on anyone, but I think there is a reason why my brother is who he is and none of us are. Oh, I don’t know.
James Berry
I can see what you are getting at. When did he—did he complete A-levels? Did he finish school?
Konika Dhar
I would rather not answer his private details.
James Berry
One further question, what do you suggest the Government and community organisations need to do to deter people from becoming radicalised? What could we do better?
Konika Dhar
This is a hard one as well. It is something that I have been thinking about as well.
Chair
If you cannot think of an answer now, would you like to drop the Committee a note about those thoughts?
Konika Dhar
Yes, I think that would be better.
Chair
Mr Berry has raised a very important issue and that would be very helpful if you cannot immediately give us a plan.
Konika Dhar
Yes, that is right. I think it would be better if I thought about that.
James Berry
Summarising your thoughts on how your brother became radicalised—without wanting to get into too much detail—it sounds like it was nothing to do with your family circumstances. It was perhaps more that he fell in with the wrong crowd?
Konika Dhar
Yes. I don’t think that helped at all. That can be evidently shown by what he represents today and who he maintains to associate with. I am not saying it is conclusively that, I am just saying that I think that played a pivotal role in his decision.
James Berry
Was this a group of Muslim friends?
Konika Dhar
I wouldn’t say a group as such; again, I don’t know. I wasn’t there at the time but I think he had a few.
Chair
Following on from what Mr Berry has said, there were big warning signs, weren’t there? He appeared on BBC Television. He was seen to be a mentor of one of Lee Rigby’s killers, Michael Adebolajo. He was a member of al-Muhajiroun. Do you think the authorities should have stepped in when these warning signs were very obvious?
Konika Dhar
I think it definitely would have helped, if anything, for anyone else to prevent it. So, for example—I mean, having said this—
Chair
This was not hidden. He was on BBC Television announcing his support for Daesh, so everyone knew this, didn’t they? Should someone have intervened to perhaps stop this going further? Hindsight is a wonderful gift but, looking back, do you think that is what should have happened?
Konika Dhar
I think it would have helped personally, because I wasn’t aware of how much of a media influence he had until very late, and I think by then it was far too late to do anything about it. Yes, I do think it would have helped.
Mr Umunna
I just reiterate, thank you for coming and giving evidence. In particular, I want to just discuss with you some of the stuff that you put in your Sunday Times article–—that was in May 2015—which must have been incredibly difficult to write. The sense I get from the evidence you have given, which in some senses tonally is a little bit different from The Sunday Times’s article, is that you are still coming to terms with what has happened to you and your family. Would I be right in saying it is almost like you are in a bad dream from which you are hoping to be woken up?
Konika Dhar
You have put it very well. I think people underestimate how traumatic the experience is, not only for the person who has gone out there but for the families that are left behind. I think people expected me and everyone else to just get on with it but it is much harder in practice.
Mr Umunna
Would it be right to say that, in terms of what he may or may not have been engaging in with Daesh in Syria, you are still coming to terms with the fact of whether or not he did that?
Konika Dhar
Exactly.
Mr Umunna
You have just said to us that you do not believe he has been doing the things that Ms Ghani has just outlined but in the Sunday Times piece you say, and I will quote, “I keep wondering where this snake has come from” and you said that he had been leading a double life for years. In answer to the last questioner you said it was too late to do anything about it, so would you say it is fair that we treat your evidence that you give with that in mind, because you have been much more public than many families and you have, particularly personally, been very honest, frank and open about what you are going through? Would it be right to say that appearing in front of this Committee is part of that process?
Konika Dhar
That is right.
Mr Umunna
Can I ask how you personally feel about this? Would I be right in saying that, in some sense, you feel responsible for what may or may not have happened? You said in the Sunday Times article, “I will never stop blaming myself for what has happened”. Would that be accurate?
Konika Dhar
I sort of feel a sense of guilt, definitely. I feel I have lost my brother. Why could I not stop it? He is a part of me, and I do not mean to sound—
Mr Umunna
I understand.
Konika Dhar
I feel as though there is an obligation on my part, as the younger sister, to make sure that he is okay, and if he is not okay then I must have failed in some way. That is how I feel.
Mr Umunna
Picking up on Mr Berry’s question just now, where James was asking you about things in your family life that may have impacted on your brother—and I don’t think you are suggesting there are any excuses for committing any of these things—clearly to prevent people from doing these things in the future we want to understand what the explanation is. One notable thing that you did not mention just now, but you did mention in that piece—and I hold my hands up, I lost my father when was 13—was the fact that you lost your father when your brother was 16. He died quite early. Do you think that could have impacted? You mentioned it as potentially impacting on him in your piece but you did not mention it just now. To me, as somebody who also lost my father at a very young age, that seems like quite a remarkable thing to miss out.
Konika Dhar
Sorry, can I just understand the question?
Mr Umunna
In terms of influences and the lack of having a father figure, frankly.
Konika Dhar
Do I feel that that has impacted on his decision?
Mr Umunna
Or in terms of the avenue that he took, this conversion, looking for belonging, identity; I don’t know?
Konika Dhar
I think it is there in what I have said before. I did state that.
Mr Umunna
Let me move on to another question. I want to ask you about some of the comments you made in relation to the video that we have seen that Daesh put out earlier this year. What would be your message, or what one piece of advice would you give to families who are going through what you described seeing happen to your brother in your piece?
Konika Dhar
I would say that essentially the mistake that any family member can make is giving up on their loved one.
Mr Umunna
You have said that before but what does that mean? Do you mean giving up hope that they have not taken this awful course, or giving up hope of trying to influence and prevent them from going down that course in the first instance?
Konika Dhar
It could be both, but to me I would say that what I meant was giving up on the hope that they might return back to that person. That is a normal state, because—
Mr Umunna
Change from Abu back to Sid?
Konika Dhar
Yes, this is it. I am on a mission to bring him back to the normal state that I remember. I think the mistake that any family can make is when they give up all hope, because that is when it is doomed. It is almost as if that is it, there is no going back, and it is what it is.
Mr Umunna
One penultimate question: what you are really saying to this Committee is that you do not necessarily deny the existence of the persona of Abu Rumaysah but that was not your brother as you remember him?
Konika Dhar
Yes. I do agree with that. God, no, I do not know who that person is.
Mr Umunna
In early January Daesh released this video depicting the execution of five prisoners with a gunman apparently of British origin there. You have made some comments about this in the media. Do you believe that gunman to be or to sound like your brother?
Konika Dhar
I think it is a bit of an unfair question at the moment because I don’t—I think—I hope that it’s not. I think I probably—yeah, I might have said in the beginning that it sounded a bit like him and that is all I would go by, and I am happy to leave it at that.
Mr Umunna
Perhaps if I could put it another way: do you think that person could have been Abu Rumaysah?
Konika Dhar
[Sighs.] I dunno, I don’t know who Abu Rumaysah is.
Mr Umunna
Thank you very much.
Tim Loughton
I am going to go back to the point a minute ago about your family background and your father. This is incredibly difficult for you, coming to terms with what has happened and trying to rationalise it. It is incredibly difficult for us trying to rationalise how somebody from, on the face of it, an entirely normal British family who then turns into this person that you do not recognise and you would not recognise as an average British citizen. Last year we had some witnesses, families of those three girls from East London, young girls, who have gone to Syria. We had a discussion, much as we are having with you, and I remember a cousin of one of the girls said, “She was perfectly normal. We all sat at home watching ‘At Home with the Kardashians’” and that was the sort of benchmark of normality. I think in your case you said your brother played basketball and he was an Arsenal supporter, which apparently is normal for some people. At some point something changed. What we are trying to get to is when that change happened. Was that change always there bubbling away under the surface and likely to happen because there was a family background to it? Everything you have told us seems to suggest that there was nothing at home that could have caused that; maybe your father’s untimely death had an influence there. There are potentially two other courses of action: were there malign influences that got their teeth into your brother? You suggested in that article that he fell in with some other people and his old friends fell by the wayside. Were there people targeting him? Or the other course of action, you used the word “brainwashed”, which I think is quite interesting. If he was brainwashed by these maligning influences or somebody else, why is it that he fell for it but your neighbour is still living and supporting Arsenal and not going off to Syria? You see, that is what we have to try to get to the bottom of. What made your brother different from other people of the same background, the same generation, and how do we do something about it?
Konika Dhar
I think it is important not to stereotype all cases. In my brother’s case it is important to look at how powerful the influence was. It is really hard, but what I mean is I do believe the powers or whoever influenced him must have been far more dangerous and it may well be the case that that person has not yet—I don’t know. Again, I don’t know because—
Tim Loughton
Was he gullible?
Konika Dhar
My brother? I do think he is a bit naive, and I mean that in a pleasant way. I think he was more vulnerable than anyone else. I do believe that. At the time of his conversion he may have been more vulnerable than your average person and that may have—
Tim Loughton
For what reason?
Konika Dhar
It could have been a number of reasons. I am not sure I know the answer myself. It is just a suggestion; I am not saying that it is fact.
Stuart C. McDonald
Ms Dhar, thank you for coming along this afternoon. Earlier on you said that you weren’t sure who you would turn to. If something similar had happened now, do you know how who you would turn to for help?
Konika Dhar
Sorry, would I know who to turn to now for help?
Stuart C. McDonald
Yes.
Konika Dhar
Unfortunately, no.
Stuart C. McDonald
I also want to ask you: last autumn the Government published a counter-extremism strategy; have you had the opportunity to read the strategy or any knowledge of that strategy?
Konika Dhar
I have not been directly informed of it.
Stuart C. McDonald
If the Government had come to you and asked you what should be in that strategy to help prevent this sort of thing happening, what sort of things might you suggest to them?
Konika Dhar
Knowing who to contact when somebody is under a bad influence, maybe, in a religious context. It is so hard. I might have to come back on that because it is similar to the other question.
Stuart C. McDonald
Of course, thank you.
James Berry
Mr Umunna asked you a question essentially about what is the best thing families can do in this situation, and you said not to give up hope. That is hope that they will return in a non-radicalised state—rather as a mother, whose child is kidnapped or disappears, will not give up hope that they will come back alive. But what I think we would like to know is: what is the best thing families can actively do to stop a loved one going down the course of radicalisation?
Konika Dhar
To always remind that person that you love them. Again, I am sorry but this is another one that I will have to think on. It requires a bit more thinking time.
Chair
You are dropping a note to the Committee; perhaps you could add Mr Berry’s point, in particular. We will drop you a line and tell you these things.
James Berry
What I was trying to get at was, other than perhaps contacting the authorities or someone more suitable at an earlier point in time, is there anything you think you could have done differently, or would do differently, knowing the consequences of what has happened?
Konika Dhar
If I had known before, I would have loved to have intervened and spoken to my brother personally, and understand where we had gone wrong or why he feels this way. That is just my personal view. I don’t think I can properly advise anyone else. I don’t really know enough families to know what they have gone through; I can only speak on it subjectively.
Nusrat Ghani
Two very quick questions, Ms Dhar. You touched on the thought that your brother may possibly have been vulnerable at the time that he decided to adopt another faith. Do you think that at the time that he was vulnerable he might have joined any other gang, but Daesh seemed to be the coolest, the most empowering element that he could join at that particular time?
Konika Dhar
Yes, I think it could have been any of them.
Nusrat Ghani
Any, it just happened to be Daesh?
Konika Dhar
Yes.
Nusrat Ghani
Do you think he was particularly vulnerable—you would not comment on his education background—maybe his emotional state of mind was not the best, maybe he thought his life chances could be different if he joined this cool gang called Daesh? There is a huge concern among the communities that their young children are being particularly approached by Daesh recruiters, because these young men feel that their life chances could be improved if they joined Daesh. They could become big men in the community and big men in their homes. Do you think your brother was thinking that he might become someone bigger than he was at the time?
Konika Dhar
I am always of the view that I love my brother and I think he is great—or from what I remembered growing up, and I think he could have had a great life. In answering that question, I don’t really want to answer that in terms of—I don’t want to indicate that he is not great in any way and—
Nusrat Ghani
But do you think he was in a fit state of mind? Was he in a fit state of mind when he converted?
Konika Dhar
No, I don’t think he was.
Nusrat Ghani
So maybe he had mental health issues. Would you say that?
Konika Dhar
I don’t want say that.
Nusrat Ghani
All right. You don’t want to say if he had mental health issues.
Chair
You don’t know, do you, so we should just leave it there.
Konika Dhar
Yes. I am not a psychologist.
Nusrat Ghani
A final very quick question: you said that the people that might have recruited or brainwashed him were far more dangerous than your brother. There are images of your brother now arriving in Syria and these images and what he may be up to is now recruiting other men. How does that make you feel about your brother, once being the vulnerable person being recruited and now becoming the recruiter?
Konika Dhar
Sad. It is tragic.
Chair
Thank you. Thank you very much for coming in to give evidence—this must have been very difficult for you—and for answering the questions in a very open way. Since this has come into the public domain, Konika Dhar, has anyone come to you to offer you and your family, yourself, your mother, any counselling over what has happened, or sat with you from the authorities, whoever they are—Social Services or the Home Office—and tried to get the kind of information that this Committee has sought to get from you today? Has there been any contact with people? Any counselling of any kind?
Konika Dhar
I would say formally, not really. No, I would not mind considering it but I think some sort of emotional support would help.
Chair
Would that be helpful if there was someone who was able to help the relatives of those who have gone in this way?
Konika Dhar
Yes. I think it is important.
Chair
This is something that we have picked up from our last inquiry—that there seems to be a lack of that kind of support, which clearly you need because clearly you are very distressed and traumatised by what has happened. Would that be helpful to you and other families in similar circumstances?
Konika Dhar
Yes, I think that would help.
Chair
Thank you for coming in. It has been very important for you to come and help us. It may not do anything concerning your brother but, hopefully, it will give the Committee an understanding of what is that tipping point that changes, as you have said, a normal person into someone who is involved in the kinds of activities that we know Daesh has been involved in. We are very, very grateful to you for coming in today. If there is any other information that you want to help this Committee with, please do write to us. We will welcome it. Thank you so much for coming in.
Konika Dhar
Thank you.
Chair
You are welcome to stay for the rest of the session.
Konika Dhar
Thank you. Am I able to ask a question at all?
Chair
Of course.
Konika Dhar
Just in terms of what I can do to help my brother, is there anything I can do?
Chair
There is nothing that this Committee can suggest but we will certainly be contacting—if it is helpful to you—the Home Office to see what support is on offer for the families of those who have been left in the way in which you and your mother have been. I will do this. I will write to the Home Secretary to see what is available for you because clearly you are very upset and need all the support that you can get.
Konika Dhar
Okay.
Chair
Maybe that is one of the problems—there is no such organisation that can help you. If there isn’t, this is certainly something that we would want to look at as a Committee. But thank you so much for coming in.
Konika Dhar
All right. Thank you very much. Examination of Witness
Witness
David Anderson, QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, gave evidence.
Chair
David Anderson, thank you very much for coming to give evidence yet again to this Committee. We are not going to have a dry discussion about the law because, as you have seen from the last session, what the Committee is interested in, in particular, is your opinions about the counter-narrative. Of course, you deal with very important matters concerning the rights of individuals and the counter-terrorism legislation. We want to hear from you your opinion—having done this job now for five years—about what we can do to stop people going in the first place, people like Siddhartha Dhar, the sister of whom we have just heard from today. In your five years you must have met many, many members of the community. I know I have seen you at many functions concerning the Muslim community. Do you have any information to offer this Committee as to why you think normal people—whether or not they be Arsenal supporters, as Mr Loughton said—suddenly turn into someone who is radical and wants to go to another country and kill people and rape women? Is there any information you can give this Committee about the tipping point?
David Anderson
I do not think there is a foolproof rule. There certainly is not an answer to everything but, if you are trying to analyse it, I rather like the analysis of Peter Neumann who runs the Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King’s College London, and he sees basically two ingredients in pretty much everybody. The first is a grievance and the second is ideology. The grievance could be almost infinitely various. It could be someone like Anders Breivik, who has a disastrous relationship with his mother, or someone who has fallen out with his brother. It could be, as Maajid Nawaz explains in his book “Radical”, racist bullying at school that gives him the grievance. It could be, one often hears, the foreign policy grievance. One hears a narrative of discrimination and I think, if we had been talking five years ago, as a terrorism reviewer, I would have been talking to you about section 44, the old no-suspicion stop-and-search power, which was very high up the list of grievances. Now gone, of course; repealed by a happy combination of the human rights Court and the Home Secretary. So there is the grievance, first of all, but it is the ideology that battens on to the grievance and provides a language that makes sense of the grievance and that makes sense of the person’s life. It seems to me that there are those two halves to it.
Chair
The worry for this Committee, and I suppose those of us who have looked at these matters for years, and indeed those who practised law and other disciplines before they came into the House, is: the more laws we seem to pass, the more people seem to go abroad. It is now up to 700 leaving to fly to Syria. If you add the rest of Europe, these are going into thousands. Are we just passing too much legislation instead of working more effectively with communities?
David Anderson
I don’t think we have too much. There are one or two that I would doubt how useful they are. We have to remember the law is a very imperfect instrument. It can keep a lid on things. The pursue strand of the CONTEST strategy is absolutely vital, it gives people confidence, it enables us to keep dangerous people out of harm’s way but it is not a complete answer. The much more difficult issue, in my view, is the issue you have identified, Chairman—why do people do this in the first place? What can all of us do? I do not think we can just dump it on the Muslim community. It is something that all of us in our different ways have a role in. Just so that that is not a completely empty platitude, you have just heard from Ms Dhar, and of course her brother was a convert. About a quarter of terrorist prisoners are converts. So it is no good saying, “We have got to sort out Muslim families”—that might be part of the problem but it is a problem that can arise in any family, as we have heard.
Chair
Let us go back to the Dhar case for a moment, and just bring in a bit of law here—I don’t want you to feel that we are not going to talk about law—and that is the situation on police bail. I don’t know whether you followed the session last week with Mark Rowley and the Prime Minister’s session for the Liaison Committee.
David Anderson
Yes, I did.
Chair
Mr Rowley said that the police have no powers to detain an individual for the sole purpose of obtaining travel documents, and felt that the law on police bail was toothless. The Prime Minister followed that up an hour later by saying he was going to look again at the bail provisions. Do you think one way of stopping these people going in the first place—and I know we have had a lot of legislation on the seizing of passports, but not necessarily on police bail—is to give the police the power to seize those passports at the time of bail, when you are dealing with suspects who are involved in proscribed organisations?
David Anderson
Yes. I think it is very unsatisfactory to give the police the power, effectively, to tell someone they cannot leave the country but then be unable to put that power into effect. It is not an easy thing to do in law. There is a lot of law around police bail and you are looking at the pre-charge stage, but I have begun to think already, with my Special Adviser Professor Walker, about how we might contribute to this debate. One way to do it might be to use the equivalent power to the one you have under the search provisions of the Terrorism Act, where you can get a judicial order for certain things to be produced. Perhaps identity documents might be put in that category as well, so you can have the whole thing under the supervision of a court and are not just relying on the goodwill of the person. The other thing that plainly went wrong in this case was that the fact that he had effectively been told not to travel had not got through to the people doing the exit check at Dover.
Chair
Sure. There was an agency problem here. We were assured that all the various agencies, the Passport Office, the Border Force, were all informed immediately but, having been released from the police station, he went home, he packed his toothbrush, his wife, his family, went off and arrived in Syria and started tweeting abuse about the British Government and the British people. All that was allowed, and what the Metropolitan Police did was just write a letter saying, “You did not turn up on 3 October.” That is totally unsatisfactory, isn’t it?
David Anderson
Well, the police have to work with the powers they have. I don’t think the bail situation is satisfactory. If this person had been arrested under the Terrorism Act there is no provision for police bail at all. That might sound appropriately tough until you reflect that that means in every case the police must reach a charging decision in 14 days and, in a very complicated plot, that can be extremely difficult. Yet, arrested under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, you have the option of police bail and it does not seem that there is the power that is needed to render the surrender of identity documents a strong and enforceable obligation.
Chair
Do you feel that this is just overwhelming us—that whatever we do, whatever powers we have, we are not able to get into people’s hearts and minds? We can pass legislation in this place, you can scrutinise the law—as you are doing, and have done so effectively in the last five years—but, at the end of the day, more are going. One of the points that the Prime Minister made yesterday is that he felt that it was a language problem and that, by giving Muslim mothers, in effect, £20 million to teach them how to speak English, this would somehow have an effect on stopping people going, because it is the Muslim mothers, in particular, who seem to be encouraging people. Do you agree with what the Prime Minister has said? Do you think that that is one way of making sure that people are more integrated?
David Anderson
I can see any number of reasons for encouraging people in this country to learn English. I think it is getting more difficult. I have visited families who might have been in the country for 20 years and still need an interpreter, because they watch television on their own channel and they talk to people mostly in their own language. I can think of lots of reasons why it is good for them to learn the language. I am not sure whether one needs to—
Chair
But this in particular, because—
David Anderson
I am not sure whether one needs to, in a sense, make that issue part of the debate on extremism and terrorism. As far as I know, people going out to Syria are not notable for their poor language skills. In fact, some of them are wanted for their propaganda skills. I can see there is an argument—and I think people like Sara Khan and Sajda Mughal, who work in this field, would probably support this—for ensuring, for example, that particularly mothers are in a good position to talk to their children, have some awareness of who their children are talking to, what they are doing on their computers, to the extent that a parent can ever know that. So perhaps there is some overlap, but I think it is unfortunate that this whole question of language learning, which is a very important part of the integration and empowerment of women, should get mixed up with the business of ISIS and—
Chair
Does that include the proposal to perhaps ban veils, and burkas?
David Anderson
Of course, they did that in France. They banned the wearing of the full-face veil in public, and indeed any covering over the face—a hoodie or something—was banned as well. The European Court of Human Rights said that was acceptable in the interests of living together.
Chair
So do you think we should do it here? Will this help in the counter-terrorism strategy?
David Anderson
I think there are some circumstances in which it is plainly not appropriate for a full-face veil to be worn. Somebody giving evidence in court would be an obvious example. I would extend that to the classroom. I don’t see how classroom teaching can work effectively if nobody can see the teacher’s face, or if the teacher cannot see some of the pupils’ faces. Would I go further and ban people from wearing the veil on the street? Personally, no, I wouldn’t. It sounds as though one could do it consistently with human rights, but that is certainly not an argument for doing it if it is not right for us.
Nusrat Ghani
Let us return to the question that the Chair raised about speaking English. It is incredibly important for mums to know what their kids are viewing online, watching on telly and reading in magazines. If you are unable to read any piece of literature that your child might bring home, you are at a disadvantage. It could be anything. We talked about Arsenal football club. It could be anything, about a football club you want to join, about a trip you want to go on overseas, a letter from the doctor, a letter from the school, so it is important that mums in this country, regardless of their background, are encouraged to speak English to help their children. Do you agree with me that if there is an issue of radicalisation in particular communities and those mums haven’t had the opportunity to learn English, because maybe some menfolk in their homes deemed it not necessary for them, that they are encouraged and supported to learn English?
David Anderson
I entirely agree that it is an important part of the integration agenda, of the empowerment agenda. It is important to help women get into work. It is important to help them to drive. I think there are all sorts of reasons why they need to speak a language, and I would apply that not just to Muslim women but to others as well.
Nusrat Ghani
Exactly. We took some very emotional evidence from Ms Dhar earlier, trying to understand why people would want to leave their home in the UK and go join a death cult like Daesh. Ms Dhar alluded to what could have been the tipping point. There was some point in her brother’s life where he was particularly vulnerable. She would not confirm or deny whether he was emotionally vulnerable at the time. It could have been any gang he could have joined but he chose to join Daesh. We have taken evidence from the Muslim Council of Britain, from the Bethnal Green Academy. We have taken evidence from imams that represent vast numbers of Muslims in this country, and all the time I have asked them, “Was there a particular point that you knew that someone you were working with, or someone that practised within your mosque, was about to become radicalised? What would you have done differently?” Until I heard from Ms Dhar, I have not heard evidence from any other person representing Muslims in this country that could say they came across someone that was about to be radicalised. Knowing that, it is incredibly hard to work out how you can have a counter-narrative if people don’t come forward—like Ms Dhar—and explain to us what made them radicalised in the first place. What can we do to be the counter-narrative if people always say, “It is not happening in our community. It is not happening within our mosque. It is not happening with any of our network”? How do you come up with a counter-narrative?
David Anderson
Yes. It is difficult. There is a certain amount of the taking down, the working with social media companies to take down, the banning of hate preachers and so on, which is going on. There is a certain amount of admiring the work of people—like the two women I have mentioned—but of course, as soon as the Government starts funding them, then people start objecting that they must be in some sense less than impartial, or creatures of the Government or something like that, so that is obviously a difficult thing to do. There is a certain amount to do in making the rules in public fora, whether that is a prison, whether that is a university, or indeed whether that is the media. If you are going to invite one of these characters on your show, are you going to do to him what happened to Nick Griffin on “Question Time”, or are you just going to give him an easy ride? All these things could be done. I would agree with the thrust of your question that one cannot exempt Muslim organisations from this, but I am not pointing the finger at them. In the evidence of the Muslim Council of Britain, and the East London Mosque, and the Bradford Council of Mosques, they all said, “The Government does not engage with us.” I have looked at the Community Engagement Forum and there are many worthy people on it but, so far as I know, they are right when they say that. I think more engagement would be very beneficial, and I don’t just mean a touchy-feely conversation. If the Government wants to put conditions on engagement, that is fine. I think some of these groups are trying, and the Chair and I both addressed the conference of the Muslim Council of Britain that they had in November. The purpose of that conference was to try to determine what they ought to be doing about terrorism and extremism. Well, maybe they need more of a shove. I think there is a risk that, if you do not talk to these people, you end up with two dialogues of like-minded people. You get the Government talking to people who think like them. You have the mainstream Muslim community talking to each other but not really engaging with the other side. I think a dialogue could actually broaden minds on both sides and might help produce solutions.
Nusrat Ghani
We can only produce solutions if people come forward and tell us exactly how the problems occur. The evidence you spoke about, the imams from Bradford mosque, when I asked them directly, “If you feel that the Government is not speaking to you, what advice would you give them if you have come across people that have become radicalised?” every time I asked them that question, they kept saying, “We have not come across anyone that showed any signs of radicalisation,” so I put it to them, “What would you offer as advice?” They had nothing more to give. What more can we learn from these groups, who say they are being excluded, even though we are trying to communicate with them, when they will not come forward and say, “We have come across people that are being radicalised within our network”? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say, “No one is talking to us” but when we say “Help us” they say, “It doesn’t happen here.”
David Anderson
I do understand that, but of course the point of this whole strategy is to unite the whole country—all of us—against the men and women of violence on the extremes. I do not see how you can do that without talking to everybody and making sure that everybody buys in to whatever it is you are proposing.
Mr Winnick
Presumably one wants to encourage people to speak English, which is desirable in itself. It is somewhat illogical to reduce funding to help foreign language speakers learn English, but that is somewhat outside your remit.
David Anderson
I think that is one for me to swerve, Mr Winnick.
Mr Winnick
It would also be true to say, would it not, Mr Anderson, that people from this country when there was an empire, colonies and the rest, and many went to India, for example, it was somewhat rare in many instances for those people from Britain to learn the native language?
David Anderson
There may even be some British people in Spain who are not yet wholly fluent in the Spanish language.
Chair
I think that is outside our remit.
Mr Winnick
On the subject of learning languages or learning English, which as I said is desirable, is it not the fact that those who committed a mass murder in our country—7/7, 52 people murdered, others seriously injured—spoke perfect English? That is a fact, isn’t it?
David Anderson
Indeed.
Mr Winnick
A brother of the witness that we just heard from was born in Britain. There were certainly no difficulties about his language. So, while it is desirable obviously—to repeat myself—that English is understood and spoken, those who have committed such crimes spoke perfect English.
David Anderson
Yes. I would repeat that, in my view, it is desirable for any number of reasons. I would not see this as solely, or even predominantly, part of a counter-extremism strategy but a very desirable thing in its own right.
Mr Jayawardena
We had evidence from Kingston University a little while ago, and Professor Weinberg said that the Government was putting universities in an impossible position with regard to the Prevent strategy. The Government’s view is that provisions for academic freedom are part of the guidance. In your view, as an independent person, do you believe the protections are adequate?
David Anderson
I do not review the Prevent strategy and I have not talked to very many university vice-chancellors. I have talked to one or two about the Prevent duty. The best I can do is to refer to the comments made the other day by Louise Richardson, the new Vice-Chancellor of the University of Oxford. As well as being the new Vice-Chancellor, she is one of the world’s most distinguished scholars of terrorism. She wrote the book “What Terrorists Want”, and she summed it up in three words: revenge, renown and reaction. I think the reason she said that people should be allowed to speak, so long as they can be challenged, is that if you start not allowing them to speak, you drive them underground and you get exactly the reaction that the terrorists want.
Mr Jayawardena
Why do you think it is that the Prevent strategy has proven so controversial to British Muslims? In the same hearing, we had the President of the NUS say that they believed that the trust in the Prevent strategy more generally, is “broken”. Why do you think it has proven so controversial?
David Anderson
A lot of influential people have said that—people from the police, people formerly from the intelligence agencies. I hear a lot of stories about Prevent going wrong and I even put a number of them as an appendix to my report of last September, but, first of all, I have to ask myself, “Who is telling me this story? Are they somebody with a professional interest in fomenting grievance, or are they someone chronicling how it is?” The second thing I have to ask is, “Are these likely to be permanent features or are they teething troubles?” When you have teachers overreacting to four-year-olds who start saying they want to pray or something, well, is that something that will have been ironed out in a couple of years’ time? I certainly applaud people—and I mention again Sara Khan—who work within the Prevent strategy. She is not necessarily flavour of the month with everybody, but she thinks there is enough good in that strategy to be worth working with. That is my instinct as well, although I certainly would not defend everything that goes on under it.
Mr Jayawardena
One final question if I may, Chair. Mr Anderson, do you believe that it is the role of Government to respond to non-violent as well as violent extremism?
David Anderson
First of all, we do have very extensive laws that extend already to aspects of non-violent extremism. I am wary about the proposed counter-extremism Bill—although I have not seen the Bill since last July and things may have changed a lot since then, I just don’t know—for exactly Louise Richardson’s reasons, that I am concerned about the reaction, I am concerned it will be counter-productive. That does not mean I think the counter-extremism strategy is wrong to be looking at non-violent extremism. It does not mean, for example, that I think institutes of education that take people for eight or 10 hours a week should not be inspected. I am sure there are a lot of good things in there, but I am very wary about extending the law, the hard law, any further than it already goes into what people believe and what they say.
Chair
Shami Chakrabarti, who will be giving evidence after you, said that Prevent was the biggest spying programme in Britain in modern times, and an affront to civil liberties. Do you agree with that?
David Anderson
No, I do not. I think there have been some mistakes along the way with Prevent. Project Champion would be the obvious example, in the West Midlands, where a network of cameras went up and the community were probably given a misleading impression of why the cameras were there. That undoubtedly fed the narrative that the whole thing was spying. I think the police have done what they can to pull that round. I would say that one difficulty has been that Prevent has been asked to bear too much weight. I think it was anticipated in the last Parliament that the Department for Communities and Local Government would build a strategy and engagement that would be quite separate from Prevent, and would leave only the hard end to the Home Office and to Prevent. For one reason or another that did not work. We now also have counter-extremism within the Home Office but, as we heard yesterday, in relation to the way the announcement on language was treated, even that seems to be sometimes viewed very much through the perspective of terrorism.
Chair
There is a lack of co-ordination between Government Departments on this?
David Anderson
I do not say that, but I do say that I am sure everybody in this room spends a lot of time with Muslim constituents. I spend quite a lot of time with Muslims. I am not just talking about the people who foment grievance when I say this. I think a lot of them feel under siege. That makes them quite thin-skinned and quite willing to believe—even when there is no reason to believe—that Prevent is perhaps not motivated by the best reasons, and is a sort of spying programme.
Tim Loughton
Mr Anderson, you have made it very clear that you do not think a change in law is necessarily the solution, and you have talked about various spying tactics, but in your report last year you talked about the proliferation of extremist propaganda. The Government boast that they have taken down x-thousand pages, and clearly that is just the tip of the iceberg, but all forms of social media still seem to be available for people to access, for terrorists in Syria to be able to talk to family, contacts and potential recruits over here. What could the Government be doing, given that huge resource of Cheltenham disrupting social media capability and so on? Why is it not happening? Why is it not working and what more could be done?
David Anderson
I think things are turning round on social media. One difficulty of course is that nearly all these companies are based in the United States, where they have very strong free speech traditions, very strong privacy traditions, and do not particularly like kowtowing to what foreign Governments ask them to do. I know the Chairman has also met with Google and I met with Google in California. They told me about their Trusted Flagger Programme, which they operate on YouTube, where Governments and NGOs can say to them, “We would like you to take this down. We think it is fomenting terrorism.” They told me 96% of requests from the British Government for take-downs are honoured—their average is 31%—so it sounds as though the Government are basically getting what they want out of that. Even Twitter, although I think it woke up to this late, will tell you it has taken down tens of thousands of terrorist accounts and, indeed, it was recently sued in the US. I saw a few days ago that Twitter was sued for giving material support to terrorism. I think there are things that can be done with the co-operation of the social media companies, and in the long term I suspect that is going to be the better option than covertly trying to spy on them or anything of that kind. An interesting part of this is what Sir Nigel Sheinwald recommended last year. I did my report, “A Question of Trust”. He produced one at the same time saying that we need an agreement with the Americans, so that what we ask of the social media companies is treated equivalently to what the Americans ask. We got it with child sexual exploitation very successfully.
Tim Loughton
But 4% still probably amounts to tens of thousands of pages.
David Anderson
No doubt.
Tim Loughton
What about disruptive techniques? I remember going to Dharamsala a few years ago, and in virtually every house you went into—in a fairly rural, not very sophisticated town—there was a Tibetan in front of a computer screen communicating with people in China, posing as various people, to give some very effective propaganda about the human rights abuses that China has inflicted on Tibet and various other things. Really effective. Why are we not doing something like that?
David Anderson
You mean the counterpropaganda?
Tim Loughton
Yes.
David Anderson
There are obviously risks in doing things like that because if the Government is rumbled as having been behind it, that simply increases the cynicism of people who are cynical enough about the Government quite openly giving funding to individuals, who are themselves trying to counter an extremist message. I am not able to inform you on precisely what the Government gets up to because I do not know.
Tim Loughton
The Government need not directly be doing it but it could be facilitating moderate Muslims, and people from other faiths as well, to be the ciphers for alternative messages, which could actually influence potentially vulnerable and impressionable people, that there is another side to this story. Do you think the Government has a role in facilitating, without necessarily instructing everybody at Cheltenham to get on their computers and do it themselves? That would also make the moderate Muslim community feel engaged in a process against the extremists who are doing so much damage to that faith, let alone the rest of the country.
David Anderson
It certainly has a role in setting the rules of the game. Whether it has a role in pumping out counterpropaganda is a more difficult question. There are good examples of sites that have had support, for example, Abdullah-X YouTube channel, followed by some young people, a good counter-narrative to Isis. As far as I know, it is not funded by the Government. I think it might have had small grants from other people. The trouble is that if the people are ill-disposed to the Government anyway and cynical about the Government’s motivations, and if they perceive counter-narrative work as being somehow funded or facilitated by the Government, then they are cynical about that as well.
Chair
In your report in June 2015, you said that some service providers were tipping off customers that they were under surveillance by the security services. Has that now stopped?
David Anderson
I think I said it was something that they had spoken about doing. I am not sure I had actually said that they were doing it.
Chair
They are not doing it?