Oral evidence: Young adult offenders, HC 397Tuesday 12 January 2016

Oral evidence, 12 January 2016.

Witnesses

Baroness Young of Hornsey OBE, Chair of the Task Group producing the Young Review, Jeremy Crook, Director, Black Training and Enterprise Group, and Raheel Mohammed, Director of Maslaha, gave evidence.

Chair

Welcome, Baroness Young and Mr Crook. It is good to see you again. I know that you have spoken to us informally, Baroness Young. Now we are doing our formal evidence session, so I am very grateful to both of you for your help and assistance, and to Mr Mohammed who will join us fairly shortly.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

He has just nipped out.

Chair

We take it as no discourtesy at all. We will move on. I am sure that he will join us.

Dr Huq

I think that I vaguely knew you as Lola Young, when you were an academic. I do not know whether that is declaring an interest.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Yes, that is me.

Dr Huq

You were an external examiner at the institution I worked at. I do not know whether that counts as declaring an interest.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

To be discussed.

Dr Huq

It was a long time ago—20 years ago or something. We know that young people are overrepresented in the criminal justice system, young BAME people even more so, yet in the last staff survey of NOMS, from June, only 7% of staff self-identified as BAME, although the MOJ refuted that and said that not everyone answered the survey. I have a very broad, open question first of all. How would you characterise the MOJ’s and NOMS’s governance of equality issues relating to ethnicity and religion?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

First, thank you very much, Mr Chairman—I believe that is what you say at this end of the corridor—for inviting us along to give evidence this morning. Thank you very much for your question. Staffing was one of the issues that we discussed. It was raised with us and obviously we wanted to raise it. I want to say at the outset that it is not simply a question of counting numbers and saying, “Because this proportion of BAME young people are in the system, you should have this proportion on the staff.” What we want are really good, professional staff who know how to deal with a variety of experiences and have a deal of cultural competency. That is what we do not have at the moment. I do not have to hand the figures for the representation of BAME people within the staffing of the criminal justice system, but it seems clear that if you look right across the board, from the policing end all the way through to sentencing, through prison, until you come out again afterwards, there is a dearth of BAME staff and practitioners in the system. Interestingly, there are a number of BAME organisations based in communities that try to establish very good relationships with some of the young people and help them when they come out of those institutions. In addition, at some of the places we have been to, some strides have been made, in terms of diversifying within the chaplaincy, for example. There are some very good imams who have been able to make really good input into defusing some of the difficult situations that can arise in prisons. Another example we came across—I think it was at The Mount—was a programme for black self-development being developed by a staff member, which specifically targeted young black men in the prison, to help them to address their offending behaviour. It recognised the perceptions and experiences of racism and discrimination that they had, but tried to build resilience and self-questioning about their criminal behaviour and so on. With regard to NOMS and the MOJ, we have had a lot of support for most of what we have been trying to do. Indeed, we cannot work without their institutional backing. Within NOMS, we have found that equalities is an area that they are looking at and addressing. We want to help them to do that in a constructive way. I do not know whether Jeremy or Raheel want to add anything.

Jeremy Crook

The current NOMS equality strategy identifies the lower number of black and Asian staff as a challenge that needs to be addressed. In London about 25% of the staff are from BME backgrounds. That is the best in the country. Outside London it gets a lot worse than that. Of course, London should be near 40%, in terms of ethnic minority profile. There are issues around progression of ethnic minority staff in NOMS, which has been identified as a challenge and an action in their current strategy. It is very important that that is addressed.

Dr Huq

In your evidence, you state that preventive measures and interventions are particularly pertinent for young black people and Muslim youths, because they enter the CJS at a faster rate than their white peers. Do you have any idea what sort of measures are likely to have success with those two groups?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Some of the things that I have already mentioned, such as self-development courses that look specifically at the predicament they are in, with regard to the external influences on their lives and why they have ended up in this particular situation—

Dr Huq

Is it leadership skills and stuff like that?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Yes. It is about self-reflection. It is about looking at issues around masculinity, for example, and how it is possible to be a man in lots of different ways, not necessarily exhibiting in specific ways. It is about looking at and acknowledging racism and discrimination—not saying that it is an excuse or a justification, but looking at how it impacts on their lives and how they address that. It is about looking at the very basic issues of literacy and numeracy and at employment. Nobody is saying that that is the single answer. There are other examples of good practice that we see around the country. As in a lot of these areas, the problem is that there is a lack of cross-departmental working. That also affects mental health issues, for example, which are predominant among young men in some of those communities. The problem around employment is another big issue that is not really addressed. When we look at unemployment among young black and Asian/Muslim men, in some geographical areas it can be really high. When we think back along that route, there is also education; often quite poor educational experiences have been had. It is about looking at all those issues—not disregarding them, but at the same time not seeing them as an excuse—self-reflecting and trying to enable those young men to develop the resilience and desistance that they need to see them through.

Dr Huq

To what extent is it possible to do more early intervention programmes to stop black people and Muslim people at risk of becoming involved in these issues?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

There is a lot to do with the educational system. One of the slightly frustrating things that was part of the impulse to do this work was that these issues have been around for a long time. We have known about underachievement educationally in certain sections of these communities. It is not uniform across all the different categories. One point I would like to make is that we talk about BAME, but it is a huge category of people; within that, there are lots of divisions and differences and there is a lot of variety. We should not be stigmatising whole communities as being totally criminalised because of what has been happening. None the less, there is an issue we need to look at. In the educational system, a higher proportion of black boys, in particular, go into pupil referral units and are expelled, so it goes way back. Some of the early interventions Lord Harris talked about are not necessarily culturally specific, but it is necessary to take into account cultural specificity when you are dealing with those particular groups.

Chair

Again, this is pre-criminal engagement with the criminal justice system. That is the point you are making.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Absolutely.

Chair

How do you characterise NOMS’s response to Lord Harris’s report and to the work that you did, Baroness Young?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

We found NOMS’s response to our report quite positive. We have developed what I feel is a good working relationship. In producing their equality strategy, which was not published but was produced in October last year, they took on board a lot of the issues that we raised and the strategy referred to the Young review in its initial phase. We are continuing to work with them. They have a space on the advisory group that we set up last time around, during the interim phase, and will continue to do so. The same applies to MOJ officials. We have found quite a strong working relationship. That is not to say that we get everything we want, when we want it. There is obviously a deal of negotiation to be done, but we feel that that is working quite well. We also have a standing item on the agenda for the equalities sub-committee that is specifically around the Young review.

Victoria Prentis

How do you think the Government’s policies on dealing with gang activity are going?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

This is a very tricky one, although I could say that about all of the issues. I want to bring colleagues in on this particular issue, as I am trying to explain something that is quite complex. Nobody is denying that there is an issue around gangs. Particularly as a Londoner, one feels this acutely. It also affects other urban areas and is very troubling. People have looked at why young men, in particular—but increasingly, young women—are attracted into gangs. There is all the material about substitute families, substitute structures and so on, plus careful grooming on the part of gang members. On the other hand—or on another hand, one might say—when we talked to young people from some of those black communities and the people who have been working with them around the country, the sense was that, whenever two or three young black men are gathered together, it constitutes a gang, in a way, in the eyes of authorities. They felt stigmatised by the idea that somehow, if there is a big group of young black men gathered together, that will be viewed as a gang and logged as such, whereas if you are not black—if you are a group of young white people or white boys—you will not necessarily be considered as a gang in the same way.

Victoria Prentis

But there is clearly a problem within prison establishments—particularly the YOIs, because people seem to grow out of their dependence on gangs—as to whether prisoners can be moved around prisons, because of the different gangs within the YOIs.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Yes. I am not denying that that is a very real issue. Jeremy has done some work in this area.

Jeremy Crook

There are issues in some YOIs around gangs and postcode location, which escalate sometimes in some institutions. Even if a young person is not in a gang when they enter the institution, they may have to be categorised into one postcode or another and affiliate with one group of young people, rather than other groups. That is an issue. From our point of view, the stereotypes of the young black male gang association and the young Muslim male extremism association become quite prevalent and all too often colour and taint the way people are dealt with in the criminal justice system. Research shows that a large number of young black men who are in contact with and are charged by the police are not in gangs at all. The assumption is that they are in gangs, but they are not on any gang register that the police hold. Research coming out in the near future will highlight the fact that we have to be very careful about the association of young black men and gangs in the criminal justice system, because clearly often it is not a factor in a young person’s journey to the criminal justice system. Although in certain parts of the country gangs are a serious issue and need to be dealt with, they cannot be the all-pervasive issue that influences the way people are supported.

Victoria Prentis

Even though for the small number of young people who are in the end incarcerated it is clearly a very significant issue. Would you agree that the gang culture in YOIs is a significant problem?

Jeremy Crook

In some where we have been and have spoken to young people and officials, it is definitely an issue.

Chair

It sounds like you are downplaying it, Mr Crook. Our evidence was very strong that this was a real, big issue and was one of the most significant issues.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Yes. I am not trying to dodge the question or the issue, but our focus has been on 18 to 24-year-olds, so we have necessarily been looking at YOIs.

Victoria Prentis

That is what we are looking at, too.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Absolutely.

Chair

It is exactly the same area. The evidence that we have had from people is that this is not a minor or tangential issue; it is fundamental.

Victoria Prentis

It is affecting the regime, as they call it, in YOIs on a day-to-day basis, every minute of their lives, because different groups of prisoners cannot be released with others and cannot be free to associate with others. Is that not your experience?

Jeremy Crook

In one institution, one of the prison officers who had been there 20 years said, “We have a real problem getting young men to come out of their cells to do any educational classes, so they can spend 20 hours a day in their cell.” Then on the news you will hear that there is a big issue of violence in that particular institution and that young men are scared to come out of their cells to go to educational classes.

Victoria Prentis

But that is the evidence that we have received.

Jeremy Crook

Yes, there is definitely an issue—

Chair

That is ducking the issue again, Mr Crook. Gangs are a real issue, aren’t they?

Jeremy Crook

Gangs are a real issue, but I am also saying that young men who are not in gangs will go to some institutions and then become affiliated to a postcode.

Chair

They may join gangs when they are there.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

In part, because of the expectation.

Raheel Mohammed

Can I come in here?

Chair

Mr Mohammed, I would be grateful for your take on it.

Raheel Mohammed

Our research has focused on young Muslim men in London and Leicester. The feedback that we have had from them is that they group together and are sometimes seen as a threat, but they may be seen as a threat purely because they are seen as being too religious. That becomes a factor. When people talk about gang culture, it depends on who is saying that. For a young Muslim man inside a young offenders institution, it may be a group of people who provide support, but a prison officer may see them as a threat. We have had interviews both from people in probation and from the Crown Prosecution Service saying that groupings of young Muslim men are seen as a threat. The factor of religion comes into that as well.

Chair

It can be seen as cutting them off, either deliberately or inadvertently, from their fellow inmates.

Raheel Mohammed

The instances we have heard of are things like somebody who wants to pray in his cell asking for a Muslim cellmate, because the non-Muslim cellmate has the television on every time he is praying. That causes more friction. There are other instances where prayer mats have been available for young Muslim men but have been given out to be used as rugs by non-Muslim inmates. That is where the friction can happen sometimes. Young Muslim men will pray only five times a day. It does not take up a whole day of being grouped together.

Chair

You can be observant and not cut yourself off from the rest of the prison community, can’t you?

Raheel Mohammed

What they are saying is that just being seen as being observant is seen as a threat, at the minimum level.

Marie Rimmer

Have you found a good understanding of different religions in institutions?

Raheel Mohammed

No.

Marie Rimmer

Absolutely. This is very important. Unless you understand Islam, you cannot appreciate the lifestyle that is required by young Muslim people. They naturally migrate to one another and are seen as wanting to be separate, when it is just that they understand one another. It is lack of understanding.

Raheel Mohammed

As an organisation, we have done quite a lot of work in health. We use religious and cultural understanding to improve health messages. That understanding of granularity does not translate to the criminal justice system. What does it mean to be a Somali man in Ladbroke Grove, as compared with a Pakistani man in Birmingham?

Alex Chalk

There are important distinctions between Sunni and Shi’a.

Raheel Mohammed

Yes.

Marie Rimmer

They just do not understand.

Raheel Mohammed

It will differ from city to city as well. That is just not there at all.

Marie Rimmer

Has there been any proper research on establishments highlighting that?

Raheel Mohammed

This month we have a report coming out with the Barrow Cadbury Trust that will have some of that evidence.

Marie Rimmer

That would be useful.

Chair

It will be interesting to see that, when we get it. If need be, perhaps we can have further conversation about that. That would be very helpful.

Victoria Prentis

Can we move on quickly to joint enterprise? This may follow from what you have just said, but do you think that there are specific concerns about the BAME community and joint enterprise?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

There is a report that either has come out or is about to come out on some research that has been done by Manchester Metropolitan University covering gang membership and joint enterprise. Again, it points to disproportionality in terms of the number of young black men who will be caught under that provision. There are some concerns about how joint enterprise works that have been expressed quite widely. It is an area that certainly needs review.

Victoria Prentis

The previous Committee made some comments.

Chair

Indeed. It is a live issue, isn’t it?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Yes. It is not exclusively a race issue, but it impacts disproportionately upon that community.

Chair

All of us who have been lawyers are alert to the issues around joint enterprise and how it works—or doesn’t.

John Howell

I want to pick up on the paucity of data on ethnicity and religious background.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

I am sorry, but I cannot hear you very well.

John Howell

I am sorry; I am speaking as loudly as I can. I want to pick up on the paucity of data on ethnicity and religious background within the system. What are you doing to work with the Government to improve that?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

This is principally through NOMS, of course. We have had a number of discussions about the data overall, not just in relation to the particular area you rightly pointed out. For example, at the moment data are not really collected about faith. We are just adjusting to a new sort of landscape on that. There are also issues around something I alluded to earlier, which is the breakdown between the different communities that come under the heading of BAME. People categorise themselves in different ways. Some people might fill in the form to say that they regard themselves as mixed heritage, for example. There is no clear way of picking up those differences across the system. Within the big group of organisations and institutes that constitute the criminal justice system, those statistics are collected in different ways. We are trying to work through with NOMS ways in which we can clarify that, so that at least we can read across the data that come from all the different institutions.

John Howell

How well do you think community rehabilitation companies, the national probation service and youth offenders institutions are working together to do that?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

This is a big issue. It is certainly something with which we are concerned. Through the advisory group, where we have representatives from all the different bits of the system—it is currently interim, but we are just recruiting to have a group that will be together for three years—we have been very much at pains to talk and hold workshops with CRCs. A few weeks ago we had a workshop with the CRCs, just along the corridor, which was very productive. We were very heartened to have people come from all over the country, plus from Wales, to talk through some of the issues. They pointed to where they felt the challenges lie. Of course, you get into the situation where one part of the system thinks that the challenge is somewhere else and everybody thinks that it is somebody else’s responsibility. As you are suggesting, people need to come together to address things in a much more holistic way. That applies to cross-departmental issues. So far we have mentioned mental health only very briefly. That is another area where we need to make sure that we join up the dots and get appropriate working.

Alberto Costa

I want to refer to the concept of developmental maturity, which is discussed in the evidence from Mr Mohammed’s organisation. You point to other ways in which young Muslim men have poorer outcomes. Have any of you or the advisory group conducted any work with sentencers to raise their awareness of the concept of developmental maturity and how it affects young black and Muslim men?

Raheel Mohammed

There will be some recommendations in the report that we are just finishing off, which will include understanding what maturity means for a young Muslim man. The T2A Alliance have done some work around maturity. In their reports, they state that a delay to the important role transitions of getting a job, leaving home and getting married will affect your maturity. That has a disproportionate impact on young Muslim men. According to the last census, 100,000 Muslim men of working age were unemployed and 400,000 left school with no qualifications. That will have an impact on their maturity. It is about making a sentencer understand what that means in relation to a young Muslim man, but also taking into account the bias we are hearing about, based on the fact that they are seen as being Muslim and are affected by the wider public debate around radicalisation and terrorism.

Alberto Costa

Are there any other comments about that?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

I have a very quick one, which is that we have been contacted by the magistrates and will be working with them. We are going to do a session with them later this month or early next month—I cannot quite remember the date. That is one of the groups referred to earlier with which we need to work.

Alberto Costa

Can you tell me a little about the session that you hope to do with magistrates? What will it involve?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

We do not know yet, because we are in discussion with them.

Alberto Costa

Is this with the Magistrates Association?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Yes, that is right. They contacted us. We are now in the first year of a three-year project funded by Barrow Cadbury, which is a key player in this field, Lankelly Chase, another foundation, and Esmée Fairbairn Foundation. Each of them has put in a sum of money to keep us going for three years. The idea is to ensure that there is a robust examination and, as far as possible, implementation of the recommendations that we made in the Young review report. We are now at the stage where we are consulting/talking/workshopping with a number of different constituent parts of the criminal justice system to inform our strategy for the next three years. That is the point where we are at the moment.

Alberto Costa

It might be helpful for the Committee to have an update when you have formed the strategy.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Absolutely.

Alberto Costa

That would be helpful.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Definitely.

Alberto Costa

Can I turn to the Black Training and Enterprise Group? I understand that you argue that black, Asian and minority ethnic young men would have the most to gain from a distinctive approach for young adult offenders. We have touched upon it a little, but could you expand on your reasoning for that?

Jeremy Crook

Essentially, we believe that young black and Muslim men very often need particular interventions that come from a community base and really address the issues that some of those young men face. We know that there are issues around developing a positive identity at a young age, which is very difficult when much of the time you are surrounded by negative stereotypes in the media, and how to position yourself as a young man and as a boy in your community. If you see around you very few positive role models in the community—entrepreneurs and successful professional people—the horizons and aspirations are quite low. We want to see more intervention—we do this ourselves—to try to raise aspirations in schools, colleges, prisons and YOIs. That is what we have been doing for the last three years. We know that it has a beneficial effect. It is particularly powerful when we can connect successful black men with young men in prisons and YOIs, so they can have a conversation, with the space to share their experiences. Some of them have been in prison themselves, have come out, been successful and turned a corner. For those that need it, we particularly want to see the opportunity to share experiences, to encourage and motivate and to show young people that you can make the right choice at the right time, and with the right help be successful in what you want to achieve. Very often young people will need help to identify what their aspirations are, realistically, and how best they can achieve them. For the last year and a half, we have been working in Hackney with young black men, with the council and the CVS. It is quite clear that they feel that they do not get very good careers advice at the right time and they do not come into contact with successful black men at the right time, so a gap appears at critical periods of their young lives. We need to make sure that there is more of that help available at the right time. The problem is that the resources for that to happen are still difficult, and getting more difficult. With less public funding, it is getting more difficult for voluntary organisations and community groups to provide those services. In some prisons we saw very good examples, which Lola has referred to, where external organisations are making a real difference for young black men in the programmes that they provide, but they are short term and very often are not sustainable. That is a real issue. We have heard from governors who believe that these programmes are very important and make a difference. They say that if they went to another prison they would commission the same kinds of services that they have in the prisons that they are running in different places. Unfortunately, examples of good practice were very difficult to find across the prison estate. There is a need to put a lot more energy, time and resource into this issue, to make sure that support is available at the right time—hopefully, before people get to prison. Schools, communities, police and local authorities must work together, certainly earlier, to make sure that this package of support is there at the right time. From what we have seen in schools, there are too many young black boys on report or being excluded in year 7 or year 8. That is when you need to get in there with the right kind of intervention, to make sure that they get the most out of school, and can be good young people and achieve. Fifty-eight per cent of black Caribbean boys still leave school without five GCSEs, including maths and English, so the majority do not leave school with a basic education, as far as we are concerned. That is a particular challenge that has repercussions later on.

Richard Arkless

The Young review expressed the concern that BAME young men are assessed at a higher risk level than their white counterparts and that the system is overly focused on risk. What evidence did you have to support that assertion?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

We met a number of researchers and academics. We also had researchers and academics on the task group. Some of those we met were working with community organisations and some of the young people concerned. Some of that material will come out shortly in the report from Manchester Metropolitan University. This has been reported as part of a swing towards the risk assessment of young people. There is an argument that, in the past, the way in which individuals were assessed with regard to what would happen to them once they entered the system was too amorphous and vague and that the pendulum has swung towards a much more tick-box assessment—to caricature it. This relates to some of the earlier points that were made about gangs. One of the instances that came up time and again was the assumption, or assessment, that because a young black man came from a particular area, in a particular urban situation and with a particular background, he was more likely to be part of a gang or to be a higher risk. I do not think that anybody would claim that there is no such thing as racism, discrimination and bias, wherever it comes from. One would expect that to be manifested in the system, and it is. There is the long tail that Jeremy referred to, all the way through from education. When you hear some of the comments from teachers, police and magistrates—from whatever quarter—you realise that it is really hard to break down the idea that this is how these young people will be.

Richard Arkless

Was any statistical evidence available? Was it just a kind of feeling that you got from taking evidence, or did you have statistics to say that BAME people were assessed at a higher risk?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

I do not think that we took any statistical evidence on that, so at one level you could say that it was purely anecdotal, but, as I said, there is the report that is coming out. Perhaps we can make sure that the Justice Committee gets a copy of that report, which should give the statistical backing for that.

Chair

It would be very helpful to have that.

Richard Arkless

What steps do you suggest should be taken to overcome it, given the Government’s rejection of Lord Harris’s recommendation that support for young adults should be informed by a broader needs assessment?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

You will probably gather from what we have said that we see that as very important. That assessment should also be done with a level of insight and understanding, if not necessarily personal experience, of the kinds of conditions that these young people are grown in, as it were. As Jeremy says, there are interventions that can be made, but they have to be made at the right time and with the right people. We very much think that, without swinging the pendulum back all the way to the other side, there needs to be a much more individual assessment of a human being. As someone who does not come from having worked in this sector, one of the things that struck me when speaking to ex-offenders and current offenders and thinking through some of their experiences was that you are talking about human beings. There is a level at which you have to pull back in certain situations and it is about statistics, throughput, quantity and so on; but, at the end of the line, a young man can come out of the system having been in it in one way or another since the age of nine, through care, being an orphan or—even if he is not an orphan, strictly speaking—having a mother with a mental health problem. After the young man comes through that, he is sent away to a school for naughty boys. Then he comes through the prison system, having spent half of his life in prison. When he comes out, obviously very depressed, and tries to get work, he sends off 50 applications and cannot get a job. Then he tries to set up as self-employed. He cannot do that, because he would need to be able to drive and the insurance costs would be £12,000 a year. This is the person. Of course, one accepts that there has been a significant amount of criminality, but if we are really serious about turning people around we have to look at those individuals and what we can do for them.

Chair

Of course, most people will not have exactly that trajectory, which is putting together every harsh element that you could have in your life.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Exactly.

Chair

It is a worst-case scenario. The majority of people will not be in that situation.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

No, but unfortunately there are enough that it is worrying. If we had a magic formula that could tell us that x plus y plus z plus whatever will equal somebody going into the criminal justice system, it would be easy. It is not as simple as that and I wouldn’t want to pretend that it was.

Chair

We all know that there are no magic formulas in life, that’s for sure.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

There are no magic formulas.

Mr Hanson

In your report, there is a whole chunk from about paragraph 92 onwards relating to the stereotyping of some young Muslims as terrorists. In fact, you and the Committee will know that about 1% of the Muslim population in prison is there for terrorist offences. What evidence do you have to back up the assertion that there is a problem of perception by staff or, indeed, fellow prisoners?

Raheel Mohammed

In the report that will come out later in January, we have interviews with young Muslim men who have gone through the criminal justice system, with the Magistrates Association, with probation, with the Crown Prosecution Service and with local police forces. All say that there is a problem with how young Muslim men are stereotyped and then treated.

Mr Hanson

For example, you have a really interesting quote from a prisoner who stated, “I asked an officer when the post Ramadan food would be distributed, the officer replied ‘I don’t care, I am not a Muslim’.” Is that attitude commonplace?

Raheel Mohammed

From the interviews that we have had with young Muslim men, there seems to be casual racist banter in YOIs and prisons that you probably would not see in other public services. It is impacted by the wider debate around radicalisation and terrorism. Magistrates are influenced by that as well.

Mr Hanson

We have statistics that show that 1% of the Muslim population is in for terrorist-related offences. The key question I am really interested in is whether experience in prison, at whatever age, following contact with prison staff, the attitude of fellow prisoners or, indeed, the nature of the regime, leads to more people coming out radicalised than went in.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Raheel will probably have something to say about that. I do not know what is available statistically and in terms of hard research, but one really important thing that you will see in Raheel’s research is about trust. We cannot run the criminal justice system—or, indeed, any agency or institution that serves the public in a general way—unless there is real trust. Once that breaks down, it becomes a real problem. It is almost like making a pre-emptive strike: “If they’re going to see me like this, this is how I’m going to be.” That undermines trust and does not allow things to work as smoothly as they might. On the other hand, we came across some examples where trust has been built up. When a particularly difficult incident took place in one prison that we visited, where some non-Muslim prisoners set light to a copy of the Koran, it was dealt with very quickly, openly and transparently. We were told by the Muslim prisoners in that particular prison that that was due to the leadership in the prison, working very closely with the chaplaincy, which was headed by the imam. That triangle of trust enabled a potentially difficult situation to be handled.

Mr Hanson

How has your recommendation 97—“Training for prison officers should be reviewed”—been received by the MOJ? What does that mean translated into practice?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

I will defer to Jeremy on some of this. Again, it is about our working relationship with the MOJ, and with NOMS in particular. If you look at their equalities strategy, which is not properly public but is available, you will see that that is one of the key areas they are looking at in terms of staff. It is also part of a wider question, which is about professionalisation and the understanding of what the role of a prison officer, a police officer or any of these other officers is.

Mr Hanson

The question that I am asking is, what will be done now, following your recommendation 97, that has not been done to date by the MOJ or NOMS?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

At one level, that is for them to answer. We are here to say, “You have to do something. We will help you and be as constructive as possible in anything”—

Chair

What do you think they should be doing?

Baroness Young of Hornsey

There are a number of things that they need to be doing. Partly, there is an issue about how the role of prison officer, to which you referred specifically, is viewed and what kind of training and professional development goes on within that profession from the beginning. It is not simply a question of saying, “We do two hours of diversity when you first come into the role and we might top that up every five years or so.” It is about continuing professional development. That is one thing. An atmosphere or a culture needs to be created in which it is possible for people to talk about their insecurities, anxieties and difficulties and to be quite open and honest about some of the issues that come up around race, culture and ethnicity, in order to move forward. I am not saying that it should be like a therapy session. This is all directed towards a certain kind of professionalisation of the role. That is what I would like to see, plus ways of working with organisations like BTEG and other community-based organisations to encourage more people from those communities to come into the system in the first place, as workers.

Alberto Costa

Mr Mohammed, in answer to a question that Mr Hanson asked, you said, “Magistrates are influenced by that.” I was not quite sure what you meant. Could you expand on that?

Raheel Mohammed

In our interviews with the Magistrates Association, we were told that magistrates would give more punitive sentences to young Muslim men, compared with non-Muslim men.

Alberto Costa

You were told that by the Magistrates Association.

Raheel Mohammed

Yes. It was by Richard Monkhouse[1].

Alberto Costa

Thank you.

Raheel Mohammed

Can I come back on the point about religion? One of the starkest findings in our report is that religion is seen by these young Muslim men as a real anchor and level of support, but it is almost on the opposite spectrum for criminal justice professionals. How you bridge that gap is really important. As Lola said, it is not about doing half an hour of diversity training; it is about incorporating tools and processes, so that it becomes an everyday part of the establishment. If you look at the NHS, for instance, there are examples where it happens really successfully. There is no squeamishness about difference in culture or difference in religion. There is a massive difference in the criminal justice system.

Marie Rimmer

That is the point I wanted to come to. It is all right to go on diversity courses for a couple of hours and to pass an exam, but it is about understanding and respect. It is about building a culture within these establishments that respects and accepts and understands that Islam is a deep, deep anchor for these young people. Unless that is respected, they will go together and then they will be seen as wanting to be different. For me, it is prime land for radicalisation if that goes wrong. It needs to be said. I have a very small Islamic community, but I respect and understand them. I am active and involved there. It is no good just going to the Eid festival—it is about understanding and being part of it. Other people need to understand. We need to do this. It is very important. How do you impress that upon people?

Chair

I think that you say that you are trying. You are doing your best.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

It is an ongoing thing. There is not a magic bullet. We have to accept that people hold prejudices, biases and ideas. We all do; I do not think that anybody is exempt from that. The point is, how can we get rid of those when it comes to our professional life and the way in which we interact with people? Also, how can we work with the organisations and structures that already exist in some communities? Personally, I think that part of being constructive is to see it as a two, three or four-way thing. It is not about one side or another. That is something we have to get over. We also have to ask how people in the communities we have been talking about—some of those organisations—can be much more focused on prevention and make those early interventions from somewhere that is not necessarily a statutory organisation. How can we harness that energy? In the report, a draft of which I have read, Raheel refers to one comment by a young Muslim man in prison. He talks about a theme that was picked up in a publication called “Freakonomics” that came out some while ago; I do not know whether you remember it. The kinds of skills that you learn as a drug dealer or whatever in criminality are transferable skills, like it or not. What we have to do, and what that young man was saying, is harness some of that energy, know-how, nous and entrepreneurialism for something that is good and productive and contributes to the growth of society, our community and our mutual acceptance within that. Until we can see these issues through that prism—if we continually see it as a battle of one thing against another—we will not make too much headway.

Marie Rimmer

There has been too much emphasis on black and Asian faces and not enough on getting other people to understand and respect.

Chair

I am sure that that is right, but we probably need to move on to the evidence. Mr Mohammed, does this relate to some of the work that you have been doing?

Raheel Mohammed

Yes. On the point that Lola was making, in one of our earlier projects we worked with a group of young Muslim men in Mile End. A number of them wanted to help to prevent offending by the younger generation. We worked with a group of them to run social enterprise classes in the local schools. Those young Muslim men, who had been through the criminal justice system, were gaining new skills, but they were also helping to prevent other young people who might be at risk of being excluded from being excluded. There are practical initiatives that you can do.

Chair

Thank you very much. We always run up against Question Time at about 11.30. I am sure that we will want to revisit your report when it comes out.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Will you drop us a line about the two points that you wanted us to submit? One was the Manchester Met report. The other—

Chair

We can get that done.

Baroness Young of Hornsey

Thank you. Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses

Rt Hon Lord McNally, Chair, Youth Justice Board, and Lin Hinnigan, Chief Executive, Youth Justice Board, gave evidence.

Chair

Welcome, Lord McNally and Ms Hinnigan. Thank you very much for coming to give evidence. I am sorry for keeping you outside for a bit. You will know that sometimes these things get a life of their own when it comes to questions and cross-examination, but we are all very grateful to you for giving evidence. We are particularly interested in how Lord Harris’s work impacts on what the board is doing and how you see things going forward. It was interesting to hear some of the things that the Secretary of State said yesterday in the Commons about how lessons can and, perhaps, need to be learned. First, I would be interested to get your take on the Government’s response to the Harris report and how you see things going forward. From your point of view, what are the key issues that you need to achieve—where we are and where we’re not?

Lord McNally

Thank you very much, Chair. This is very welcome. We both gave evidence to the Harris committee and welcomed the report when it was published. The Government’s response may have disappointed Lord Harris, in that they did not simply say, “Wonderful. We’ll implement the whole lot,” but that is not necessarily the way Governments respond. I have been very encouraged. We are in a period of opportunity as far as penal reform is concerned. As Mr Gove indicated yesterday, he has set in train a whole number of issues. In our own terms, there is the review across the piece of youth justice services that is being carried out by Charlie Taylor. There is the inquiry into education in prisons. There is the announcement about selling off the old Victorian prisons and using some of the proceeds for a new prison estate, which will give opportunities for different kinds of approaches to imprisonment. For those who are interested in penal reform in its broadest sense, the way Mr Gove is taking things forward makes this a period of real opportunity to put forward and develop ideas. The Harris report is and should be a vital document in that process. In all of this, certainly in our own area, it is always work in progress, in terms of learning lessons and seeing where there is need for improvement. One thing that we have said consistently is that there is a need, certainly in the youth estate but perhaps throughout the prison estate, to upskill those who are looking after inmates, so that they have the skills and resources to deal with often very difficult and complex characters. There is optimism. At my board, we are working on our evidence to the Taylor review. I have said on a number of occasions that, when it comes out, I want it to be seen that the best ideas for reform have come from the Youth Justice Board itself. We are working hard on our experience. Do you want to say anything more on that, Lin?

Lin Hinnigan

No. I would endorse what you said about the opportunities from the youth justice review. Obviously our focus is on young people under 18. However, we recognise that the time of transition to adult services is particularly high risk for them, as they move from a system that has evolved to look particularly at their needs to an adult system that is not designed in the same way. That is a particular risk. The focus on transition is an important one for us at the Youth Justice Board.

Chair

Lord Harris made quite a strong point about the fact that the most effective interventions happen before engagement with the criminal justice system. Does that fit with your experience?

Lord McNally

Absolutely. One of the encouraging statements made by Mr Gove is his absolute endorsement of the view that diversion is far better than rehabilitation. Since I have been in this job, I have consistently said that we need to get upstream of the offences. I hope that this Committee will encourage the breaking down of silos. It is not just a matter for education, health or social services. The things that influence and draw a young person into criminality happen a long way upstream. Of course, there is the occasional young person who comes into our custody from a stable, comfortable background, with good parenting, but that is the exception.

Chair

It is unusual.

Lord McNally

You can count most of them on one hand.

Chair

Usually a specific type of offence that has led them there.

Lord McNally

The factors that come up time and again are a background of domestic violence and abuse, drugs and alcohol, mental instability, a parent or sibling already in the criminal justice system and long-term, intergenerational unemployment. There is a big overlap between what we are trying to do upstream in terms of diversion and the interventions and initiatives on troubled families. We are fishing in the same pool.

Chair

You are, aren’t you? To do that fishing, you need the resource. What is your take on resourcing, in terms of the pool?

Lord McNally

We are aware that we live in hard times—in times of austerity. What we have said very clearly to the Secretary of State—I hope that he passes the message on to the Chancellor—is that you cannot continue to salami-slice youth services without their breaking down. That is why we welcome the Taylor report. If there is no instant bonanza around to solve all these problems, all of us—local authorities, the Youth Justice Board, youth offending teams, the police and everybody involved—have to think smarter about how we use the resources that are available. One thing that is encouraging—I hope that the Youth Justice Board has been a pioneer of this—is that through multi-agency co-operation you can get better and more effective use of resources.

Chair

That is the sense I get, and you have a core budget that you probably need to protect to enable that.

Lord McNally

Yes. I hope that I am not quoting him out of context, but Mr Gove has said to me, “If you have a solution that needs resources and you can convince me that it is the right solution, I will fight for those resources.” That is encouraging, but we are not in the world where a Minister says, “What should we do?” and you say, “Spend more.”

Chair

That was long gone before both of our times.

Marie Rimmer

As you said, the Minister has to go to the Treasury, so there will be cuts, and there are cuts. I am interested in what you said about co-operation. Do you not think that more integration of youth facilities and services would be a better use of resources now? At the Youth Justice Board, you have said that there should be more integration of services for youth, to make better use of that resource.

Lord McNally

We are looking at the way things are structured. Recently I was at a meeting where somebody referred to the 1998 Act as a straitjacket. I think that is unfair. The 1998 Act was brought in because of the consideration at that time that youth services were the responsibility of many but the priority of none. What the Youth Justice Board did in the justice system was give priority to young offenders; it had the structure and the statutory responsibility to encourage cross-disciplinary co-operation. We will have to see whether the Taylor review produces different structures. There are some interesting things. Surrey has a structure that is much more integrated and they claim great success for that. However, I am afraid that if we simply say, “Let it all move back into general children’s services,” or even any other local authority department, that priority for youth justice services will be lost. I have accepted an invitation to have a look at the Surrey model. I am not afraid of reform or reorganisation, as long as we can retain what has been the great success of the youth justice system, which is cross-discipline co-operation, underpinned by statute. We are at a moment when we have to look at how better to spend our money. As a board, we are certainly not afraid of looking at new ideas, new ways and amalgamations of various bodies. That is what a good review is about. We have a very open mind as to where it will take us, as long as we retain the best of what the 1998 settlement gave us.

Chair

The key bit is the statutory underpinning for that, isn’t it?

Marie Rimmer

Yes. For me, it is about that having more influence on youth services in local authorities. If it had more influence on the primary services for youth, it would be very effective.

Lord McNally

You are quite right. Often the youth services have the best impact upstream.

Chair

That is exactly right. That is an argument for greater integration with local authorities, in a sense. I should be interested in the Surrey model, I must confess, as an old local government hand, but it strikes me that the Surrey work is notable precisely because it is not the norm.

Lord McNally

Yes, but there are other experiments. Leeds is also doing some interesting work. We are not trying to impose a straitjacket. There is scope within the legislation for experimentation and initiative, but if you lost the statutory underpinning, human nature being what it is, you might lose something in the process.

Chair

I understand that. Forgive me, but I would like to pursue this for a second. What is your relationship with the Local Government Association like? Does the board engage with it on a regular basis?

Lin Hinnigan

We engage particularly with directors of children’s services and the Association of Directors of Children’s Services. We have engagement with the Local Government Association, but the strongest link is probably with the ADCS.

Chair

It strikes me that the political buy-in that you need at local level will have to come from the members.

Lin Hinnigan

Yes.

Chair

What are you doing at the moment to see precisely how this work fits in with the devolution agenda—with mayors and the devolution package?

Lord McNally

When Mr Gove first announced the Taylor report, we had a first look at that. One thing that we pointed out was that the devolution agenda might tie in very well. To my mind, it is very interesting that some of the most interesting developments in youth justice services have happened in Wales and, if I may say so, in Scotland, where you have devolved responsibility that has also produced new initiatives and ideas. If we can get it right, the devolution settlement offers real opportunities.

Chair

I am going to move on to some specifics, unless colleagues would like to come in on that specific point. Perhaps it is something we can revisit as we move forward, because it is very important. I want to deal with some of the specific issues we are looking at in the inquiry. One thing we have heard a lot of evidence about is maturity and how that affects offenders, offending, sentencing and so on. Obviously that was in the Harris review. The Government’s approach was to say, “Yes, up to a point, Lord Copper.” What is your sense? Leaving aside the legal status that happens at 18, is 18 some magic figure? When I was a barrister, I was not always conscious that there was something very different between a 17-year-old and a 19-year-old, in terms of what happened when they got involved in the justice system. What is your take on that?

Lord McNally

My chief executive is a professional in this area. I will give you my view as well, but I will pass it to her for an opener.

Chair

By all means. That is the prerogative of being chair.

Lin Hinnigan

I should start by saying that the legal definition provides a particular framework. There are rights and responsibilities around children and protections for children that are not there for others, and there are different responsibilities on 18-year-olds. We cannot entirely ignore that. We are particularly keen that the entitlements and protections for children should not be in any way compromised or diluted by an approach that looks more widely. I am a psychologist by background, and certainly developmentally all the evidence now shows us that brain development continues well into the 20s. Very often the young people we are involved with or who get involved in the youth justice system have had abuse, neglect and damage. If you look at the pictures of their brains at age three or so, you will see that their brain development was severely hampered early on. Therefore, for them that development certainly continues later. Many features of an 18-year-old, and beyond, into the 20s, are very similar to those of younger children, under 18. We believe, therefore, that one should look at the needs of that particular group and ensure that, as we do with young people, we are trying to look very much at the individual and their individual needs. It is not about what age you are; it is about where you are at, what experiences you have had and how you have learned and developed. It is interesting that generally in society adolescence has grown. More and more children do not leave home. All the things that helped desistance, such as having a job, a partner, a family and so on—we know that a lot of youth offending drops off when people settle down—have been pushed later on for the whole population. People do not settle down so early, so there is extended adolescence in general. Obviously, it is particularly acute for our young people who are neuro-developmentally—

Chair

A number of other western European or common law systems seem not to make such a rigid distinction in their approach to that cut-off point.

Lord McNally

No, they seem to manage it better. I went to a conference—you may follow this up—where evidence was given by University College London on brain development that was quite compelling. Part of the problem is that the law is very rigid. The under-18s are children, and children are protected by a whole range of Acts of Parliament and by a UN convention. Nevertheless, there are ways of making 18 a much more wavy line, certainly in terms of treatment and the passing over of responsibility. Recently I heard a very interesting lecture about the Scottish example. Their dividing line is 17. Nevertheless, they manage to make that a wavy line in terms of care and responsibility.

Chair

Have you talked to Ministers about whether or not the YJB’s remit might be extended, for example, over that wavy line or non-wavy line?

Lord McNally

It is very interesting that at the last election two parties had in their manifesto a suggestion that the remit of the YJB be extended past 18. Neither of those parties was successful in the general election.

Chair

I am sure that it was not the determining factor.

Lord McNally

I do not think that it was the determining factor. It has been looked at by Ministers. Let us be very blunt. The cost implications are quite considerable. The under-18 estate is far more intensively staffed and far more expensive per head, so it is something a Government would have to take real care over. There is a possibility that we can look at transitioning—a lot of work has been done on that—so that it is not such a cliff edge at 18 for those who are in custody, and for those who are being looked after in the community. There is a real opportunity realistically to explore what everybody identifies as a 16-to-25 problem, rather than one that changes dramatically at 18. I do not know whether Lin wants to say more about what we have been doing on transitioning.

Lin Hinnigan

It is worth noting that it is not an absolute cliff edge at 18, in terms of the work that the youth justice system does. For instance, if young people are on a youth reparation order or a DTO, YOTs will continue to supervise them and will not pass them over to finish their order. Similarly, in our secure estate, approximately 10% are 18-year-olds. If a young person is on a DTO or a longer sentence that is coming towards the end, we hold on to them in the youth estate. That judgment is made on a case-by-case basis. There is a little bit of flexibility. I am sure that there is not as much as one might like, but it is not an absolute cut-off at that point.

Chair

Is this work in progress, as far as you are concerned? Is it something that needs to be revisited, or do we accept broadly the settlement where we are and tweak around the edges?

Lord McNally

It would be a big bite by any Government to take on—

Chair

It is a lot, isn’t it?

Lord McNally

There should be a lot of encouragement to keep exploring and looking at other examples of how the area is being managed. Part of it is making sure that things that work keep going and not allowing artificial barriers or interventions to stop some really good work being continued. In terms of what we have been doing in the under-18 estate, it is sometimes worrying whether when they move into the adult estate, or even into the community at adult level, they will get the same kind of support as they were getting previously. If they do not, do you lose all the gains that you have made?

Chair

Part of that is the whole issue around individual responses—vulnerability and needs assessments—which you do while they are within your regime, but it may be different elsewhere.

Lin Hinnigan

We have developed assessment tools that are specific to under-18s or to young people. As we have discussed, those will often have relevance for other people at that level of maturity. For instance, we have the AssetPlus system, which we are just developing and rolling out to all youth offending teams. It is a comprehensive assessment and planning interventions framework that encourages a full picture, moving away from simplistic ideas or labelling, such as vulnerability, towards a much more detailed look at the particular risks—and strengths, because it also looks much more at strengths, following the research on desistance—of any individual child, so that you get a much more rounded picture, which can be shared across all agencies. There is also the comprehensive health assessment tool, which has been developed with NHS England and the Department of Health and is designed to take a look at the whole of someone’s health needs, mental and physical. It is carried out by a health practitioner when a young person comes into custody, to give a view on what their health needs are. Again, that is a useful tool. There is much that can be taken from those assessment tools that would be useful with young adults.

Chair

Do you regard those as the principal assessment tools and performance measures?

Lin Hinnigan

Yes.

Chair

That is very helpful. I will deal with a couple of specifics, if I may, because you have been very helpful in giving us a comprehensive overview. How do you see CRCs, the NPS, the Y2A portal and so on engaging at the moment? What is your assessment of how that is going?

Lin Hinnigan

The Y2A portal was developed precisely to try to address the issue of transition and is a key part of our work to support transition. It is a web-based system to enable information to be passed over from youth offending teams to probation services. It went live in July last year. As of November, 90% of YOTs, CRCs and the national probation service were signed up and using it. It is a pull system; it depends on CRCs or the NPS asking the YOT for that information. The majority of them have signed up to the national protocol for transitions, which would support that transfer. In terms of CRCs, obviously the work started originally with probation trusts—a single agency delivering probation services. Now we have the CRCs involved as well. Because young people are high risk at transition—the very nature of transition makes it risky—the NPS will take young people and carry out an initial assessment, although the YOT is the initial point of contact. Because they are seen to be at risk, due to the nature of transition, the NPS will always make a risk assessment and pick up the young people first. It may then pass them on to the CRC, if that is appropriate, but a reasonable percentage of them stay with the NPS. We have a much smaller youth justice population now, so they tend to be those with more complex needs and greater risks. As I said, 90% of YOTs, the NPS and CRCs have signed up to use the portal and have taken the training.

Lord McNally

One hobby-horse of mine since I have been in this job is the transfer of information. I still worry that different bodies squirrel away vital information and do not share it. When the troubled families initiative was launched, the Prime Minister got a very shirty letter from the leader of a Conservative authority, saying that he could not possibly give the information that the troubled families unit was going to ask for because of the Data Protection Act. As the Minister for Data Protection, I got an equally shirty note from No. 10 asking, “Why is this?” Of course, the truth is that it was not prevented. Too many bodies are loth to share vital information.

Chair

I agree.

Lord McNally

Particularly within the criminal justice system, at every point where an organisation or an individual is looking after somebody in custody they should have the fullest picture of their vulnerabilities and background. It needs a bit of nudging, to make the various bodies that contain that information share it readily with other professional colleagues. I do not think that it is a step towards a Big Brother state to have that. It is a step towards making sure that people in custody are kept safe and given the proper treatment that they need.

Chair

Personally, I have huge sympathy with that, from my own experience. It used to worry me in the criminal justice system, as an advocate and sometimes as a prosecutor, that I did not always have access to information, or that we had to go through convoluted methods to get hold of it, particularly when dealing with vulnerable victims or vulnerable witnesses. You are absolutely right as far as that is concerned. Talking of the justice system leads me to my final question, before colleagues come in. It concerns the differences in approach between the adult court and the youth court. Are there things that can be learned either way? People have made the point that the spectrum goes up to about 25. There are times when a circuit judge or district judge in the adult environment will be dealing with someone who really has the same issues as someone who would be dealt with differently in a youth court. What can we do about that?

Lord McNally

Again, it is very encouraging that recently Mr Gove addressed the Magistrates Association and really challenged them to think outside the box. I am very worried about giving our colleagues from the SNP too many references, but there are things that can be learned from Scotland, New Zealand, Northern Ireland and so on about how to handle that. One thing that stuck in my mind very early on was from a conference, where an expert on youth justice quoted a young defendant who had been asked whether he felt remorse for what he had done. He said, “No.” Afterwards his advocate said, “Why did you answer in that way?” He said, “I don’t know what ‘remorse’ means.” We get a lot of advice about the language used, the structure of youth courts and so on. There is an opportunity to look at that. I have always believed that the magistracy is a massive resource. Maybe we need to look at different ways of using the magistracy, but there is scope for a way of dealing with this that allows follow-through by the sentencing magistrate—to find out what happens next, as it were—with a lot more problem solving by those courts. There are a lot of ideas around. Mr Gove has said that he is up for this. One of the prompt results of the Carlile report was the appointment of Mr Justice Davis. For the first time, we have a senior judge overseeing youth justice. I will see him again in a week’s time. He is certainly bringing together the various elements in the legal profession to address it. Recently the Bar Standards Board published a report on it. CILEX has some very positive ideas. There are a lot of good ideas to gather. There is real scope for reform at the youth justice level—in the youth courts.

Lin Hinnigan

You spoke of opportunity and capacity. The fact that youth crime has fallen so much means that youth magistrates, who have specific training and are trained particularly to deal with young people, have less and less business. They are complaining about that, but there is an opportunity, in that you have a specially trained magistracy that has the capacity to deal with other young people.

Lord McNally

The Magistrates Association is keen to try some piloting of more problem-solving courts.

Chair

That is very interesting. It may be something the Committee needs to return to. I think that you are right, Lord McNally. I get the sense that there is a real openness to this from the judiciary, as much as from practitioners. That is particularly welcome. Thank you both very much for your evidence, which is immensely helpful.

Lord McNally

Thank you, sir. Without over-flattering you, can I say that this Committee has always had a reputation for very constructive ideas about the youth justice system? We look forward to working with you in what I hope will be a very exciting time of change and improvement.

Chair

I think that is right. It will not be the first time that we have worked together in exciting times of change and improvement, Lord McNally. I look forward to carrying on with it. It was very good to see you both.

Lord McNally

That, as they say, is another story.

Chair

Unless there are any other matters, the official session is finished. Oral evidence: Young adult offenders, HC 397 27 [1] Note by witness: This opinion was not given to Maslaha by Mr Monkhouse. It was made by a senior member of the probation service in relation to their observation of Magistrates.