Oral evidence: Antisemitism, HC 136

Oral evidence, 4 July 2016.

Witness

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP

Chair

I welcome the Leader of the Opposition, Jeremy Corbyn, as our witness for today. This is our ongoing inquiry into antisemitism. We are most grateful to you, Mr Corbyn, for coming here. This is the first time that the Leader of the Opposition has given evidence to a Select Committee, as far as we can establish. You have done so very openly, for which we are very grateful. Can I start with the fact that I need to declare an interest? I have known you for 32 years as a colleague and a friend. Obviously, other members of this Committee have also known you to varying degrees in the last years that we have all been in Parliament together. You have been commended for your work on diversity and racism, but there is a great deal of criticism about the way in which you have handled the issue of antisemitism. Why do you think there is so much criticism by Jewish members of the party, the Jewish community and others about the way that you have distinguished between your incredibly strong record on fighting racism in respect of black people, Asians and others, and your weak record on dealing with the issue of antisemitism?

Jeremy Corbyn

Thank you very much for inviting me. I am very pleased to be here and to take part in questions and discussion. I have spent my life, as you correctly say, opposing racism in any form within our society. Since I became leader of the party, it was brought to my attention that there were cases of antisemitic behaviour being reported at Labour party events, or indeed in public, by members of the party. Our compliance unit took appropriate action, and some members of the party were suspended from their membership. In total, less than 20 were suspended, all of which was part of a due process. I became concerned about this, so I asked Shami Chakrabarti to undertake an inquiry, along with David Feldman and Jan Royall, into antisemitism in the party. I promised that would be reporting by the end of June, and it has indeed reported.

Chair

Indeed, and I was present at the press conference when it was launched, and I will refer to the Chakrabarti inquiry in a second. Until you had these matters drawn to your attention, had you come across any antisemitism within the Labour party? It seems that you have acted because these matters have been brought to your attention, which you ought to do as leader of the party, but had you come across this in your very long career in the Labour party?

Jeremy Corbyn

A long time ago, there were sometimes antisemitic remarks made—I’m talking when I first joined the party and later on. Over the past years or so, no, and in my own constituency, never under any circumstances. I was alarmed when I heard these reports. I did obviously receive the reports, and that is why I thought the best thing to do was to set up an inquiry, which also was designed to look at the issue of racism within the party and to propose a due process by which the party should deal with issues of racism. Shami Chakrabarti’s report does exactly that and sets up an appropriate process to deal with these issues. I have to say we are the only political party in Britain that has ever done this, and I think that Shami should be commended for her report and the Labour party should be commended for this, because we’re setting up a process that other parties may wish to follow.

Chair

Yes, indeed. This Committee is on record as being a great fan of Shami Chakrabarti, but this isn’t the occasion to honour her; this is the occasion to look at what the Labour party has done and what it has achieved.

Jeremy Corbyn

Absolutely.

Chair

Now let us look at the immediate reason why this was set up, which is the comments made by Ken Livingstone, who was a witness to this Committee but not a witness to the Chakrabarti inquiry, which the Committee finds puzzling. The Chakrabarti inquiry did not take any evidence from Mr Livingstone, but you have heard what he has said. Do you want to take this opportunity to condemn the words used by Ken Livingstone and distance yourself, as leader of the Labour party, from what Ken Livingstone has said—his reference to Hitler’s support for Zionism?

Jeremy Corbyn

Ken Livingstone made remarks that are wholly unacceptable and totally wrong. They were drawn to the attention of the party compliance unit very rapidly. A decision was made within a very few hours to suspend his party membership. He is now—the remarks are now being investigated by the party and due process will take place.

Chair

So you are happy to condemn—not happy to condemn, but you do condemn what he has said. You don’t believe for one moment what he said to this Committee—that the crisis has been stirred up by embittered Blairites.

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I think we have to condemn the way in which he made the remarks and the remarks themselves, and the equation of Hitler and Zionism at the same time. As I said, his case is being investigated. Due process is under way.

Chair

Jackie Walker, a vice-chair of the Momentum movement, wrote about the “African holocaust” and Jews as “chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade”. Why is she in the Labour party while Ken Livingstone has been suspended?

Jeremy Corbyn

Jackie Walker is a woman of black Jamaican heritage and European Jewish heritage, and as I understand it, she became involved in an online discussion about the history of the slave trade and the financing of the slave trade, and unfortunately she then became involved in a discussion about the gradations of horror that go with that. She was indeed suspended. She made strong representations to the compliance unit of the party—I wasn’t a party to any of that—and she was subsequently reinstated on this. I think she is somebody that does have a deep understanding of issues of racism that have affected her and her family in her life—

Chair

So you are happy to have someone in the party who has made those comments.

Jeremy Corbyn

She has explained herself. I was not present at the meeting when she explained herself, and therefore I was not a party to the decision to reinstate her. I am content that she has now been reinstated in the party and that she will make a positive contribution to our party and not in any way indulge in any activities that would be damaging to the party.

Chair

So has she apologised for the statements that Jews are “chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade”?

Jeremy Corbyn

I don’t know what she said to the compliance unit, so I cannot confirm that one way or the other.

Chair

Those are not comments that you would associate with.

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I certainly wouldn’t make those comments myself, and I think it is an inappropriate way of doing things.

Chair

Let us turn to the Chakrabarti inquiry. You set it up because of the concerns that had been raised. Many regard this inquiry as a whitewash because it does not contain any facts and figures, and it did not take evidence from some of the principal people accused of antisemitism. Why did you think this inquiry was relevant when it really doesn’t come to any conclusions?

Jeremy Corbyn

I did not ask her to subvert herself to the whole party process. What I asked was that she undertake an inquiry into the generality of the allegations that had been made and the way in which the party deals with these allegations and with racism in general. I asked her to look at that process—you will see from the terms of reference of the inquiry that she followed those—and to come up with conclusions that would involve rule changes within the party so that we can deal with this. But she also, crucially, comes up with advice on education and inclusion within the party. I asked her to report within two months, by the end of June. She achieved that, and I think she should be commended for that. We launched the report last Thursday, which was the last day of June.

Chair

But she has not taken any evidence from some of the principal players who led to the establishment of her inquiry. She did not take evidence from Ken Livingstone, for example.

Jeremy Corbyn

She has taken evidence from a very large number of organisations, which are listed on pages 30 and 31 of the report. She also had a very large number of representations made by individuals, which she obviously took on board, and she has taken part in many dozens, if not a hundred, separate meetings with people to form their views. She has put forward a report that will go to the national executive of our party at its next meeting. I hope the party will accept the report in its entirety, as I do, and I hope they will put forward the very necessary rule changes that will bring a due process to the party if those rule changes are approved by our annual conference in September.

Chair

Indeed. But it was hardly an independent report. The criticisms that have been made—

Jeremy Corbyn

I understand, by the way, that she did take evidence from Ken Livingstone. I wasn’t aware because it is not listed because she didn’t list the individual evidence that she had taken, but she did take evidence from Ken Livingstone.

Chair

That is very helpful. But she was not an independent figure, was she? Within 40 minutes of her being appointed to be in charge of this inquiry, she joined the Labour party. Certainly at the press conference that I attended she referred to “we in the Labour party”, so it is not an independent report. That is why it has been criticised as lacking the degree of independence and robustness that one would expect if somebody from outside the party had conducted it.

Jeremy Corbyn

She was, as you know, director of Liberty for many years. She has a very good reputation both as a human rights lawyer and as director of that organisation, which has defended civil liberties in this country and has spoken up on human rights issues all around the world. She was joined by two other people. I think she has produced a very good report. She has produced the report because I asked her to look at it objectively. I did not at any stage direct her as to how to write it or what to write.

Chair

I didn’t say you did, Mr Corbyn. I asked whether she could be regarded as being independent in that she is a member of the Labour party and she conducted the press conference as a Labour party member.

Jeremy Corbyn

She became a member of the Labour party after ceasing to be a director of Liberty. She is obviously a Labour party supporter. She has the best interests of the party at heart and has therefore produced this report. Is she politically independent? No. Is she independent in the sense of how one approaches issues of racism or other things objectively? Yes, I believe she is. I think her own record and her own experience proves that very much.

Chair

Indeed. This Committee knows of her record in respect of other matters and is very happy with it. Let us deal with what I regard as six tests: the six opportunities that you have had to deal with the issue of antisemitism, in which you have found yourself wanting. The first and the most recent was at that press conference when you made a comparison between the democratically elected Israeli Government and Daesh. The Chief Rabbi described your comments as offensive and alarming, and you were subsequently reported to your own party’s general secretary by Jewish Human Rights Watch. Would you like to take this opportunity to clear this up and say that you did not mean in any way to compare a democratically elected Government—no matter that it holds a different view to yours—with the criminals who run Daesh/ISIL?

Jeremy Corbyn

At no stage did I make that comparison. I am disappointed that that reference was made by the Chief Rabbi or anybody else. What Shami Chakrabarti—

Chair

You never made that comparison? You never said that in a sentence?

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I didn’t say that. Can I complete the answer? What Shami Chakrabarti says in her report, and I endorse, is that because somebody is Jewish they should not be expected to have special knowledge of, support for or opposition to the state of Israel and its activities any more than somebody who is a Muslim should be expected to have special knowledge of, support for or condemnation of the Government of, say, Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan. It would be wholly wrong to expect them to do that.

Chair

But you have never made that comparison?

Jeremy Corbyn

I said “Islamic states”—lower case. It would have been better, with hindsight—many things are much better with hindsight, as every one of us around this table is well aware—if I had said “Islamic countries” rather than “states”.

Chair

So you did make the comparison but it would have been better if you had not used those words? Miss Chakrabarti, there is no need to nod at the back. Thank you.

Jeremy Corbyn

If I’d used the words “Islamic countries” there would have been no doubt whatsoever. I am disappointed that some people decided to say that I had made an equation. I had not made an equation and I do not.

Chair

So you never said those words?

Jeremy Corbyn

I do not make an equation in that way. As far as I am concerned, the activities of ISIS/ISIL/Daesh are wholly wrong and wholly unacceptable.

Chair

Secondly, at that press conference you failed to intervene when one of your Labour MPs—a Jewish Labour MP, Ruth Smeeth—was accused by a Momentum activist of “working hand in hand” with The Daily Telegraph. She left that press conference in tears. Do you wish you had intervened, as leader of the party, to stop that?

Jeremy Corbyn

To be quite honest, I was not aware that she had left at that stage. The remarks made by Marc Wadsworth, which were along the lines that she had been working hand in glove with The Daily Telegraph, were inappropriate and wrong. He made another point, which was a reasonable one, about concerns over levels of black representation within the party. I answered the points on black representation within the party. Shami absolutely criticised—I totally support what she said—the way in which he had made the other remarks concerning Ruth Smeeth.

Chair

That is very helpful. In 2009 you shared a platform with Hezbollah at an event where you described them and Hamas as your “friends”. Are they still your friends?

Jeremy Corbyn

The language I used at that meeting was actually here in Parliament. It was about encouraging the meeting to go ahead and encouraging there to be a discussion about a peace process in the Middle East.

Chair

I am asking specifically: do you regard them as your friends?

Jeremy Corbyn

No, it was inclusive language I used which, with hindsight, I would rather not have used. The general point I was making—

Chair

So you regret using those words? That they are your “friends”?

Jeremy Corbyn

I regret using those words, of course.

Chair

And they are no longer your friends?

Jeremy Corbyn

I have done so on many occasions. I would also say that, to bring about a peace process anywhere in the world, you have to reach out.

Chair

Yes, we are coming on to the peace process, but specifically they are no longer your friends? Hezbollah and Hamas are no longer your friends?

Jeremy Corbyn

They never were.

Chair

So you regret making that comment?

Jeremy Corbyn

I have already expressed that.

Chair

You have also shared a platform with figures like Raed Salah who was found guilty by a British judge of using the blood libel—a lie that Jews use Christian blood for rituals. You invited him for tea on the Terrace of the House of Commons.

Jeremy Corbyn

He didn’t come.

Chair

He didn’t come?

Jeremy Corbyn

No. He was under house arrest. I met him to discuss the terms of his house arrest.

Chair

But you invited him?

Jeremy Corbyn

He is an Israeli national and I was quite surprised that, if he was seen to be such a dangerous figure within Israel, he had been allowed to travel; he travelled to this country. I met him while he was under house arrest and had a very long discussion with him about how to bring about an eventual peace process within the Middle East and about his concerns about Palestinian people living within the borders of the state of Israel. I said to him that I absolutely condemn any form of racism—

Chair

But you wouldn’t invite him back to tea at the House of Commons like you did previously?

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I don’t think so. He is not coming back, either.

Chair

You wrote defending Stephen Sizer, a vicar disciplined by the Church of England for antisemitism, saying he was “under attack” by a pro-Israeli smear campaign. Do you regret those comments?

Jeremy Corbyn

I have met Stephen Sizer on many occasions in his role as a vicar and as somebody that supports Palestinian people and who feels with much justification that their human rights are under attack. These are people living within the Palestinian territories. I was very surprised when that was done to him—

Chair

So do you still support what he does? Would you still support what he says?

Jeremy Corbyn

I supported what he was doing in supporting the Palestinian people. The things that emerged later on I was unaware of at the time.

Chair

Finally, you sponsored a Labour movement conference on Palestine which called for Labour to disaffiliate from its Jewish arm and denounce “the Zionist state as racist”. Do you stand by those statements?

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I don’t believe that to be the case. What I have been involved with all of my life is opposition to racism in any form, and also a very deep desire to see a long-term, durable peace settlement in the Middle East. I have visited pretty well every country in the region. I have met Palestinians in refugee camps. I have met Israeli politicians, some of whom I agree with and some of whom I profoundly disagree with, and vice versa in Palestine. The only way you will ever bring about the process is by meeting people with whom you profoundly disagree, as a way of promoting dialogue.

Chair

Thank you. Let me just be clear for the record. You are saying to this Committee that you did not use these comments at the Chakrabati launch: “Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu Government than our Muslim friends are for those various self-styled Islamic states or organisations.”

Jeremy Corbyn

“States or organisations”—those are the words I used. It’s in my speech.

Chair

You did use them in the speech? So you did make the comparison?

Jeremy Corbyn

I used the words “Islamic states”, not “State”.

Chair

You did make the comparison, then?

Jeremy Corbyn

I made the comparison, which I just explained to you a moment ago, that Jewish people should no more be expected to be knowledgeable, defensive or critical of the state of Israel than Muslim people should be expected to have an equivalence of knowledge on any Muslim states. The point we are making is that everyone in the Labour party should be treated equally. They have an opinion, or they don’t have an opinion. It should not be based on what their ethnicity or their religion is.

Chair

Do you accept that Jewish groups and organisations are fearful, with you as the leader of the Labour party, given what you have said and done—some of which you have regretted today, I think for the first time—that you are fostering a period in the party where antisemitism exists?

Jeremy Corbyn

I think that is deeply unfair and deeply wrong. It’s absolutely the last thing I would want to do. What I want is a large, inclusive party. What I want is a party that welcomes all. I want a party that is open for all, where the members, whatever their faith—or lack of faith, if they are humanists—are equally welcome within the party, and that is the way we have to go forward. Many of the Jewish groups within the party—some are critical, some are not critical, but that’s what a political party is like and about.

Nusrat Ghani

Mr Corbyn, you said earlier in response to the Chair that antisemitism has existed in the Labour party for some time. Is that correct?

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I said that it’s been brought to my attention since I became leader. I do not believe there is a high degree of racism within our party—

Nusrat Ghani

No, antisemitism.

Jeremy Corbyn

I want there to be no racism of any sort. Antisemitism, of course, is a racist—

Nusrat Ghani

I don’t have a huge amount of time to ask you questions. Can we separate racism and antisemitism? I am just going to talk about antisemitism. So you weren’t aware of comments made previously by members of the Labour party that most people would consider antisemitic? For example, back in 2014, Vicki Kirby said, “Who is the Zionist God? I’m starting to think that it might be Hitler”, and tweeted, “What do you know abt Jews? They've got big noses and support Spurs”. You weren’t aware of any of this antisemitic activity?

Jeremy Corbyn

I’ve said that I was not aware of antisemitic activities in the constituency parties that I have been involved in. The remarks that you have just reported are utterly disgraceful and totally unacceptable, and indeed within society they are totally wrong and unacceptable. I supported a campaign to prevent the use of antisemitic slogans at football matches, particularly at my own club, Arsenal. I am pleased to say the directors of Arsenal have silenced that completely, and it no longer happens.

Nusrat Ghani

Now that you’re aware that it has been taking place for some time, do you still agree with Ken Livingstone and your brother Piers, who believe that antisemitism and all these allegations have arisen since you were elected as leader, or do you accept that it’s been taking place for longer than that?

Jeremy Corbyn

Of course I understand it’s been taking place for longer than that. The question I was asked was if I had experienced it at a personal, individual level—no. Within the party, on the remarks that were made, I am not sure if the person who made the remarks you reported is a Labour party member or not; I didn’t catch the name.

Nusrat Ghani

They are a Labour candidate. We have got comments from Labour councillors as well. They are quite widely available.

Jeremy Corbyn

Okay. Of course they are completely unacceptable.

Nusrat Ghani

How long have you been a member of the Labour party?

Jeremy Corbyn

Me?

Nusrat Ghani

Yes.

Jeremy Corbyn

Since 1965. Sorry, 1966.

Nusrat Ghani

Have you been involved in any activities to stamp out antisemitism within the Labour party?

Jeremy Corbyn

I have been involved in every anti-racist group—

Nusrat Ghani

Antisemitism.

Jeremy Corbyn

I said I have been involved in every anti-racist group within the party—

Nusrat Ghani

Antisemitism.

Jeremy Corbyn

—which includes opposition to antisemitism as well, in any form in which it should arise.

Nusrat Ghani

This report is quite confusing, because on page 1—

Chair

This is the Chakrabarti report?

Nusrat Ghani

Yes, sorry. It has “antisemitism, Islamophobia” right at the top, in the first sentence. I thought this report was just going to be about antisemitism, but it doesn’t seem to be; it covers all sorts of racism. In the second paragraph of page 1, it says that the “toxic atmosphere…is understandably utilised by its opponents.” So I am not sure whether the report is trying to state that antisemitism has just been brought about recently by “opponents”. However, on page 27, one of the first recommendations that the report makes is, “Epithets such as ‘Paki’, ‘Zio’ and others should have no place in Labour Party discourse going forward”, which makes an assumption that they did have a place in the Labour Party discourse previously. I just want to understand whether this report identifies antisemitism as being a new thing or something that’s been taking place for a while, considering that we have so many comments from people in the Labour party who have made antisemitic remarks.

Jeremy Corbyn

The report is into what it says; the terms of reference are absolutely clearly laid down, and those terms of reference were widely accepted by the national executive—indeed, unanimously, by my recollection. The report looks into these issues and proposes ways of dealing with them. I would mention the first line. It says, “The Labour Party is not overrun by antisemitism, Islamophobia or other forms of racism.” It goes on to explain that it was the Labour party that initiated anti-racist law in Britain for the first time. All the anti-racist laws in Britain have come from Labour Governments.

Nusrat Ghani

How long did this report take to put together?

Jeremy Corbyn

It was concluded last week and it was initiated about two months before, so two months, basically.

Nusrat Ghani

And I repeat that the first recommendation is that “Epithets such as ‘Paki’, ‘Zio’ and others should have no place in Labour Party discourse going forward.” The fourth point is that “Labour members should resist the use of Hitler, Nazi and Holocaust metaphors, distortions and comparisons in debates about Israel-Palestine in particular.” I am quite surprised that this report has been written to support you in communicating within the Labour party. It feels like a report that would have been written for some children to understand what is and isn’t antisemitic and racist. Did you really need a report to tell you that these words were offensive, and did you really need a report to tell you that comparing “Hitler”, “Nazi” and “Holocaust” to Jewish people is inappropriate?

Jeremy Corbyn

Of course I know these words are deeply offensive, and I’m sure everyone in this room knows that they’re deeply offensive. I just wanted—and I am pleased that the report includes it—to make it absolutely clear that we would not accept the use of the words “Paki” or “Zio”, and that we would not accept this idea of equivalence—the Hitler comparison and other issues like that. We just make it absolutely clear; it is there as a recommendation, which I hope will be accepted by our party.

Nusrat Ghani

Should there be a recommendation, in point 4, that “Labour members should resist the use of Hitler”? Surely it should say, “There is no place in the Labour party” for that. And it is just a recommendation, so if people do use these terms, what will happen to them? Will they have their wrists slapped, or what?

Jeremy Corbyn

What will happen is that they will be told they should not use them.

Nusrat Ghani

But you needed a report, compiled over a period of many weeks, to come to that conclusion?

Jeremy Corbyn

We are the only party that has had the courage to have a report on our own party, our own organisation and our own structures, and recommend rule changes that will prevent any of these things from happening in the future.

Nusrat Ghani

But don’t you think that it’s a sad state of affairs for a political party to come up with a report where the No.1 recommendation is that epithets such as “Paki” and “Zio” have no place in the Labour party? And if you really think these are offensive terms, at the top of page 27, it says, “This Inquiry was triggered by a series of unhappy incidents”. I don’t think racism and antisemitism are “unhappy incidents”.

Jeremy Corbyn

The report is written, with its conclusions, to hopefully be accepted by the party to bring about those rule changes. I think we should be commended as a party for being prepared to look at these things—

Chair

Mr Corbyn, you’ve said that before several times—

Jeremy Corbyn

I know I’ve said it.

Chair

Yes, several times. I am interested in the answer to the question.

Nusrat Ghani

Are those unhappy incidents?

Chair

Order. In answer to Nusrat Ghani’s question—I am interested in this answer—do you think the incidents that have been described are “unhappy”, or do you think it is much more serious than unhappiness?

Jeremy Corbyn

I think it is extremely serious. The word chosen is “unhappy”. I think the important point about the report is the recommendations that come from it.

Nusrat Ghani

Last week, at the launch of the report, whichever way you try to phrase this, you compared Zionism with Daesh and allowed one of your MPs to leave in tears.

Jeremy Corbyn

I’m sorry, but I didn’t compare those things.

Nusrat Ghani

That MP has stated that under your stewardship the Labour party “cannot be a safe space for British Jews”. The report belittles racism and antisemitism, because it describes these incidents as “unhappy incidents”. Was the launch just another one of those unhappy incidents, or do you think it has genuinely increased confidence in the Labour party’s willingness and ability to represent British Jews?

Jeremy Corbyn

There has been wide acceptance of the report so far. I am glad that it has encouraged a public debate. It has encouraged a debate within the party, as indeed all such reports must do. Was it an “unhappy incident”? I think having the report is a bold step, for which we should be commended.

Nusrat Ghani

In 2011, Paul Flynn, one of your MPs, criticised the appointment of the first Jewish British ambassador to Israel by saying that he had divided loyalties because he had “proclaimed himself to be a Zionist”. Last week, you appointed him shadow Secretary of State for Wales. Why did you appoint a man who judges someone’s ability to do their job based on their faith to a shadow Cabinet post? How does that show that you are using your position to actively combat the problem of antisemitism?

Jeremy Corbyn

I don’t think Paul Flynn is in any way antisemitic or in any way racist. He made those remarks in the context of someone’s appointment as an ambassador because of issues that he thought that ambassador had. I do not accept that Paul Flynn is in any form a racist. He is a good man and he represents his area well.

Nusrat Ghani

You said earlier that everyone should be treated equally, regardless of their faith, but it now seems that everyone should be treated equally unless they are of the Jewish faith.

Jeremy Corbyn

Not at all. Everyone should be treated equally, regardless of their faith. Absolutely.

Nusrat Ghani

So Paul Flynn will stay in his position in the shadow Cabinet, even though he has questioned someone’s faith and said they had an inability to do their job.

Jeremy Corbyn

I think he questioned their political views, rather than their faith.

Nusrat Ghani

A final question. You have often said that you have to talk to people with whom you profoundly disagree. Have you had any conversations with members of the Israeli Government?

Jeremy Corbyn

Yes, I have met members of the Israeli Government over the years. I have been in Israel and Palestine on nine different occasions. I have visited the Knesset and met members of many parties there. I would also say that, in the context of political work over the years, I have met people very much on both sides of the equation in Northern Ireland, Colombia and many other places.

Chair

Ms Ghani, in this Committee a final question means the final question, not three other questions after.

Jeremy Corbyn

Is that directed at me?

Chair

No, at Ms Ghani.

Nusrat Ghani

One more. In April you were invited to visit Israel by the leader of Israel’s Labour party to help you to “better understand the scourge of anti-Semitism”, but you said you were busy with existing commitments. Do you accept that this matter is so serious that you need to prioritise a visit? I urge you to get on a plane, make that journey and make that visit.

Jeremy Corbyn

I have been in Israel nine times.

Nusrat Ghani

What about now, since you were invited in April?

Jeremy Corbyn

I cannot really set out my travel plans here and now.

Chair

Nor would we want you to, because I am sure they would be very detailed. On that point, have you met the Board of Deputies since you became leader?

Jeremy Corbyn

Yes.

Chair

On how many occasions?

Jeremy Corbyn

One.

Chair

In respect of the Chakrabarti report, you said in answer to Nusrat Ghani that you hoped it would create a debate, but it wasn’t a position paper, it was an inquiry into antisemitism. It was not supposed to create a debate. Surely it was an action report.

Jeremy Corbyn

It is an action report that I hope will create a debate about understanding, inclusion and education, and about forms of education and inclusion in the party. That is clearly part of the recommendations that she has put forward.

Chair

That is very helpful.

Victoria Atkins

“Sad”, “shocked” and “insecure”. Those are the three words that the president of the Board of Deputies chose when asked in this Committee two weeks ago how he felt when he heard about Mr Livingstone’s comments—your friend Ken. There are 300,000 Jewish people in this country. Are you upset that you and your friend have upset them in this way?

Jeremy Corbyn

Ken Livingstone has been suspended from party membership following the remarks that he made, so obviously we have taken action as a party.

Victoria Atkins

You have very clearly said today that you have had problems with words, because you got “Islamic states” and “Islamic State” mixed up on Friday.

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I did not say I had problems with words. I said I had problems with the way in which some journalists chose to interpret what I said. I felt that if I used the word “countries” rather than “states”, there would have been less confusion.

Victoria Atkins

Alright. I will try to make it as easy as possible for you, because I am going to ask about your actions, as opposed to your words. Stephen Sizer is the vicar banned from the Church of England for six months after suggesting that Israel was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Why did you write a letter of support for him, claiming that Mr Sizer had been victimised because he “dared to speak out against Zionism”?

Jeremy Corbyn

Mr Sizer had done a great deal of work on support for human rights for Palestinian people over the years. I absolutely don’t agree with him on his ideas of the conspiracy theory. I just thought that his previous work should be recognised.

Victoria Atkins

Another one: Sheikh Raed Salah suggested that Israel carried out the 9/11 attacks. He has been convicted of funding Hamas and has been banned from the United Kingdom, yet you invited him for tea on the House of Commons Terrace.

Jeremy Corbyn

At that time he was not banned from the United Kingdom. He was visiting the United Kingdom. He is a citizen of the state of Israel. He carries an Israeli passport. He came here and, I think, addressed one meeting in the House of Commons, which I did not attend. He was due to come to a subsequent meeting here. In the meantime, he was arrested and put under house arrest, where he was for some months. I took that opportunity to have a long discussion with him, in which I reiterated my views on racism in general, which I explained to Mr Vaz earlier on.

Victoria Atkins

So you went to him for tea, rather than him coming to the House of Commons.

Jeremy Corbyn

He wasn’t allowed out, so that was the only way of doing it. He was under house arrest in Ealing.

Victoria Atkins

But you went to visit him for a cup of tea, rather than him coming to the House of Commons.

Jeremy Corbyn

Well, he couldn’t leave the house, so that was the only way.

Victoria Atkins

Okay. It is not really where the tea was, but the fact that you proceeded to continue having cups of teas with him.

Jeremy Corbyn

I had a discussion with him about his views on the position of Palestinian people within the state of Israel.

Victoria Atkins

And then Paul Eisen, who describes himself as a Holocaust denier, says, “I question that there ever existed homicidal gas-chambers.” He has suggested that you helped fund his campaigning endeavours. Have you?

Jeremy Corbyn

Paul Eisen founded a group called Deir Yassin Remembered. Deir Yassin was a village that was destroyed during the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948. He used to hold an annual event called “Deir Yassin Remembered”, and I indeed attended some of those Deir Yassin Remembered events. He actually lives in my constituency. As far as I was concerned, what he was doing about Deir Yassin Remembered was reasonable, and the events were quite large, and a broad range of people came to them. He later produced these views, with which I totally and profoundly disagreed, and I let them know. I have not attended anything else since.

Victoria Atkins

Just remembering that we are talking about actions, not words, last week we had the launch of the report on antisemitism. The Momentum supporter, Mr Wadsworth, offended one of your Members of Parliament so badly that she left the room in tears. You have been caught on camera apparently saying to Mr Wadsworth as you left, “I sent you a text about it.” What did the text say?

Jeremy Corbyn

I will explain. Last Monday evening, there was a big demonstration in Parliament Square, which was nothing to do with this report. As I was leaving that event, I was surrounded by a lot of police, who were very helpful actually in getting me away from the event. Marc Wadsworth was trying to get through the police cordon to say something to me. The police decided that they would not let him through the cordon, because they wanted to get me away, so he was not allowed in. I felt quite bad about that, because I did not know what he wanted to say to me—I still do not know; he did not get through the cordon. When I was leaving the event last Thursday, I said to him I was sorry he was not able to speak to me on Monday. He said he wanted to talk to me now, and I said that was not possible. I said, “If you wish to speak to me, get in touch.” He has not been in touch.

Victoria Atkins

But this is a man who upset one of your Jewish Labour MPs so much that she left the meeting in tears. That was the same meeting at which you made a mistake about Islamic State.

Jeremy Corbyn

I must say that I was not aware that she had left the meeting.

Victoria Atkins

You didn’t see it?

Jeremy Corbyn

No.

Victoria Atkins

How big was this room?

Jeremy Corbyn

It was quite a big conference room with a lot of people. I did not see her leave.

Victoria Atkins

You didn’t see her leave.

Jeremy Corbyn

No. I wasn’t told she had left until afterwards.

Victoria Atkins

How is that you, as Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition, have the personal mobile number of this gentleman who has said these things in a national press conference?

Jeremy Corbyn

Marc Wadsworth has been an anti-racist activist for 30 years in London, on many occasions. He has written a number of books about Saklatvala and many other people. He is well known within the Labour movement in London.

Victoria Atkins

So he is a friend of yours.

Jeremy Corbyn

I know him quite well. I have often disagreed with him; sometimes I agree with him. I didn’t think the remarks he made were right, appropriate or helpful, and that was exactly what he was told on Thursday.

Victoria Atkins

I am just looking at the evidence across the board. I know other colleagues will have more questions to put to you, but it seems to me very unfortunate that you appear to have so much contact with people who have unpleasant views about Israel and Jewish people. Would you accept that?

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I wouldn’t accept that. You are going on what a number of media outlets have reported in the past six days, or maybe a bit longer than that. I know a very large number of people in many anti-racist organisations and human rights organisations. I have spent my whole life on these issues.

Victoria Atkins

To clarify, surely you are not suggesting that all these incidents that the Chairman and I have put before you did not happen, are you?

Jeremy Corbyn

Of course not.

Victoria Atkins

No, so let’s ease up on blaming the media. All that this is is an observation that you have an unfortunate habit, it seems, of talking to such people in this way—I am not aware that any other leader of a major political party has this sort of history. You are unusual, to put it bluntly.

Jeremy Corbyn

It is very kind of you to say that.

Victoria Atkins

Unique.

Chair

I think Mr Corbyn takes that as a compliment.

Jeremy Corbyn

I take the “unusuality” as a compliment, if I may. Thank you.

Chair

Anyway, we do need to move on. Ms Atkins, a final question.

Victoria Atkins

Going back to the three words that the President of the Board of Deputies used—sad, shocked and insecure—do you think he is going to feel any more reassured after hearing your evidence today, given your admitted contact with these people, who have such unsanitary views?

Jeremy Corbyn

I had a long meeting with Jonathan Arkush when he came to my office. We had a long discussion about a lot of issues: about the history of Jewish people in this country; and the history of Jewish people in Spain and across Europe. We had a very interesting discussion that lasted a very long time. We got along quite well. I am disappointed he has made those remarks. I am more than happy to meet Mr Arkush to continue that discussion. Look, if we want a strong cohesive society, we oppose antisemitism because it divides us.

Victoria Atkins

You talked about—

Chair

Ms Atkins, we need to move on.

Victoria Atkins

Sorry, Mr Chairman. You talked about how you were disappointed that that was the President’s feeling. It seems to me that you are shifting, if I may say so, the burden on to those who feel upset by the comments of various representatives of your party, rather than looking at the root cause itself, which is that some people in the Labour party—not all by any means—have said some rather unpleasant things about Israel and Jewish people in recent years.

Chair

Thank you. Can I have a brief answer to that as we do need to move on?

Jeremy Corbyn

Mr Arkush made his comments. I am disappointed he made those comments. I am aware that he welcomed the establishment of the Chakrabarti inquiry, as did many other people. I look forward to his response to Shami Chakrabarti’s report.

Mr Winnick

Would you say, Mr Corbyn, that the Labour party has a long history of fighting and combating antisemitism?

Jeremy Corbyn

Yes, I would, going back to the 1930s and, indeed, before that. I remember discussing the way in which the party stood out against antisemitism, from the rise of antisemitism in Britain, from probably the end of the 19th century onwards. I remember discussions with the late Ian Mikardo and others on these issues. I think we have a very, very clear record on this within the party. The party was very much part of the opposition to the rise of Nazism in Britain in the 1930s.

Mr Winnick

And also very much at the forefront in fighting Mosley and all the poisonous filth that he was spouting at the time. Eighty years ago, the Labour party stood shoulder to shoulder in the places where Jews were under attack. Am I right?

Jeremy Corbyn

Yes, you are. Mosley was a member of the Labour party, and fortunately later left the party to form the New party, which eventually became the British Union of Fascists. It was the Labour party that stood up with many, many others at Cable Street and many other places. That is the Labour tradition that I know, understand and recognise. My first job in the trade union movement was in the 1970s working for the National Union of Tailors and Garment Workers, which was itself an offshoot of the Jewish tailors’ union. I worked with many older men—older tailors—who had been through the most appalling racism. Indeed, some of them were Holocaust survivors who had come to this country. I learned a great deal from those people of what they went through in their lives. The idea that I would accept any of this is just wrong.

Mr Winnick

Mr Corbyn, has Labour been a political home for Jews without any form of discrimination because of their racial origin?

Jeremy Corbyn

Interestingly, one of the founding organisations of the Labour party was Poale Zion, along with Christian socialists, the Independent Labour party, trade unions and so on. The origins of the Labour party are extremely interesting. From the very beginning, the party accepted into affiliation a specifically ethnic and religious-based organisation. Indeed, it now has a very wide range of religious and ethnic-based organisations in affiliation to it.

Mr Winnick

The internal inquiry, which has been much spoken about today, made the point that in the 1945 election there were 28 Jewish MPs. Were you surprised that, of those 28, 26 happened to be Labour, and that there were no Tories or Liberals?

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I am not surprised by that at all. The history of the Jewish community in Britain, from the 18th and 19th centuries particularly, is that the Jewish community was very active within the Labour party and movements for social justice. It was, indeed, very radical. There was the Bund—the Jewish workers’ organisation—and Jewish people were often in the leadership of many trade unions, both manual working unions and other unions, so I am not surprised. The other one was actually a Communist. I think that, of the 28 in the 1945 Parliament, there was one Conservative, one Communist and the rest were Labour.

Mr Winnick

In 1966, there were Jewish Tory MPs—they amounted to two. Be that as it may, there have been a number of questions asked about Palestine. We are not the Foreign Affairs Committee, but inevitably the issue of Palestine has come up. Recognising that there is a Palestinian cause that is not going to go away, which many of us believe is a just cause, do you feel, Mr Corbyn—perhaps you don’t feel this; I don’t know—that there needs to be a special responsibility, bearing in mind the history of the Jews and the fact that 6 million were murdered not for their religion, which was of no concern to the Nazis, but because of their racial origin? Do you feel that there needs to be a particular sensitivity among certain people who have been mentioned today, who I would consider—I don’t want to be misunderstood by people with genuine mental health difficulties—if you like to use the word, loonies: Holocaust deniers who use any form of antisemitism they can think of, including the blood libel nonsense and such poison? Do you feel that there needs to be more sensitivity when dealing with the Palestinian cause and the continued occupation of the lands conquered since 1967?

Jeremy Corbyn

Of course there has to be enormous sensitivity. The Jewish people faced the Holocaust. Six million died in the gas chambers because Europe descended into the horrors of the Second World War because there was insufficient opposition to the racism of the Nazis, which was not just in Germany; it was in France, this country and many other countries. Of course there has to be that sensitivity. In the many events that I have been to over the years, there has often been a significant Jewish presence—at events calling for peace in the Middle East—and a degree of solidarity with Palestinian people during, for example, the bombardment of Gaza. Does that make them anti-Jewish? No. What it does mean is that they recognise that there is an historical issue here, which has to be addressed and dealt with, but antisemitism has no place whatever in that discourse.

Mr Winnick

Would not this be sensible? I do not want to give myself as an example, but if I address any sort of conference dealing with the Palestinian issue and the rest of it, I am very careful to find out who are the organisers. If any remarks are made that are prejudiced against Jews, just as with any such remarks made at a different type of conference—a prejudice against Muslims or, for that matter, Christians—I would walk out, because I would not wish to be associated with those with the most poisonous views, which to some extent, of course, derive from the early Christian Church, and are now unfortunately carried on in so many parts of the Middle East by religious leaders, as you probably know. Do you feel, perhaps on reflection, that that might have been done in your case and would be done in whatever position you might occupy in the future?

Jeremy Corbyn

I have been at events concerning Palestine and at Palestinian conferences when a speaker has raised the issue of, essentially, Holocaust denial and has been asked to be silent—and, indeed, has been asked to leave the conference, or has been removed from it as a result. I think that anyone who is serious about bringing peace to the Middle East or supporting the rights of Palestinian people would not allow themselves to descend into those arguments.

Mr Winnick

Final question. Are you quite clear that in no way were you associating Israel—which in my view, like yours, has many, many defects, to say the least—with the mass murderers of ISIS, who murder simply for the sake of murder? Am I right?

Jeremy Corbyn

Absolutely no connection.

Mr Winnick

No comparison whatever—

Jeremy Corbyn

No comparison, no connection.

Mr Winnick

However critical one can be about Israel.

Jeremy Corbyn

Everyone knows that I have been critical of the state of Israel and its activities—indeed, I believe you have yourself—but of course there is no comparison. I made no such comparison.

Mr Winnick

Thank you.

Chair

You have been to a lot of demonstrations in your time in Parliament and before. Were a demonstration to be organised against antisemitism, would you take part in it and would you be in the leadership?

Jeremy Corbyn

Of course I would support a demonstration against antisemitism, as I would against any other form of racism.

Mr Burrowes

On what basis do you condemn Ken Livingstone’s remarks as being wrong and unacceptable?

Jeremy Corbyn

The use of the Hitler comparison on the issues of Zionism in Germany in the 1930s—the historical parallel that he drew.

Mr Burrowes

So on the basis that they are racist and antisemitic.

Jeremy Corbyn

I think it is a wrong comparison to draw, but his remarks are subject to investigation and there is a due process going on within the party. I think we must let that process take place; it is not for me to comment on a process that is going on.

Mr Burrowes

But you have done. You have made a judgment that you have condemned it—

Jeremy Corbyn

No, I made a point about the remarks, and I think we should allow them to be investigated.

Mr Burrowes

You have made a judgment that they are wrong and unacceptable. Should Ken Livingstone—

Jeremy Corbyn

We made a judgment that he should be suspended.

Mr Burrowes

You sign up to the Macpherson definition of racism, don’t you?

Jeremy Corbyn

The Macpherson definition of racism is that, in the first instance, the person who feels that a racist remark or incident has taken place against them should have it treated as such for investigation—in this case by the police. That was the fundamentals of the Macpherson recommendations. After that, due process takes over, and that due process would decide whether or not it was a racist incident.

Mr Burrowes

But you know that the Macpherson definition is not simply about criminal proceedings. There has been an acceptance of the judgment of Macpherson and the way we treat racism across institutions.

Jeremy Corbyn

Yes, indeed. I was in the House, as you were, at the time of Macpherson.

Mr Burrowes

Absolutely. So surely you would agree that Ken Livingstone’s comments should be regarded as racist.

Jeremy Corbyn

Listen, Ken Livingstone’s remarks are being investigated. The party will investigate them and will come to a decision on it.

Mr Burrowes

So you won’t at this stage, despite condemning it and saying it is wrong and unacceptable, tell us that and make it clear, as others have done? Let’s look at the list—we’ve got the Chief Rabbi, the Board of Deputies, the Holocaust Education Trust, the Jewish Labour Movement and many other Jewish people in my constituency and no doubt yours, who regard it as racist. Why don’t you agree with them?

Jeremy Corbyn

There is due process taking place on Ken Livingstone. I condemn the remarks that he made. That is why I and others were consulted on this and he was suspended from party membership. Due process is taking place. The Macpherson report was after the tragedy of Stephen Lawrence and was a very brave report. That report sets out the parameters and ideas on which investigations should take place but, ultimately, a due process would decide. What Macpherson was concerned about was what he saw—and I think he was correct—as institutional racism within the Metropolitan Police Service.

Mr Burrowes

Well, it has wider application, as you know. The Chakrabarti report made the point that the use of Nazi and Holocaust comparators was wrong. Plainly, even when the report was published, Ruth Smeeth, following the Macpherson definition, would consider that she was a victim of racism at the hands of Marc Wadsworth. Aren’t you willing not simply to say that Marc Wadsworth was not right and inappropriate or Ken Livingstone was not right and inappropriate? Surely, you need to go to the heart of the question and say what it is, which is racist and antisemitic. [Interruption.] You don’t need to look at these post-it notes coming from behind, you can answer the question.

Chair

Order. Can I just say to Mr Rotherham and Ms Chakrabarti that it is not really in order to keep passing notes or whispering to the witness constantly? [Interruption.] No, you may not, Mr Rotherham.

Mr Burrowes

He doesn’t have to be briefed. You don’t need to be prompted to say it as it is, that Ken Livingstone was racist and antisemitic.

Jeremy Corbyn

Look, I have made my views absolutely clear on what Ken Livingstone said—

Mr Burrowes

Okay, you’re not willing to say it.

Jeremy Corbyn

Sorry, can I finish? There is a due process. He is part of that due process that is taking place at the present time in our party. I would suggest that other parties also look at due process for themselves when their members make racist remarks.

Mr Burrowes

I look forward to having other parties before the panel here. Was Ruth Smeeth a victim of racism?

Jeremy Corbyn

I’m going to talk to Ruth about it. I haven’t spoken—

Mr Burrowes

Have you talked to her yet?

Jeremy Corbyn

I’ve just left a message and I’m speaking to her later.

Mr Burrowes

You’ve left a message. Have you left a message with Marc Wadsworth about his racist and antisemitic words? You were keen to text him.

Jeremy Corbyn

Can I say that I have had no contact whatsoever with Marc Wadsworth? I will work out what is going to happen now, what process is going to take place.

Mr Burrowes

But on the face of it, it is an antisemitic trope about Jewish and media collusion—do you agree that that is racist and antisemitic?

Jeremy Corbyn

I need to know exactly what was said before I can make a comment on that.

Mr Burrowes

Before you take action, does it have to be a trope, a slur or does it have to be a physical attack? When do you take action as leader of the Labour party?

Jeremy Corbyn

Listen, I have taken a lot of action as leader of the Labour party. We have suspended a number of members because of reports we have received of racist remarks made by them or racist actions that have been taken. They are being investigated. What this report does is set out a process by which those who are suspended will get a fair hearing; those who feel that they have been abused by those individuals will also get their evidence considered. We have taken action that shows a great deal of responsibility by a party. I don’t recall any other party, including yours, doing the same.

Mr Burrowes

I’m asking you the questions today. I am happy to ask similar questions of other parties. You are the person to answer these questions. As leader of the Labour party, are you really taking this issue seriously when you have a senior member of the Labour party, a Front-Bencher—the shadow Leader of the House—saying that allegations of antisemitism in the Labour party “are among the wildest and least accurate of insults”? Do you agree with him that they are among the wildest and least accurate of insults?

Jeremy Corbyn

I do not know why or in what context he made those remarks. The number of people suspended is not huge. I want to have all those cases investigated. I draw your attention to the first page of Shami Chakrabarti’s report in which she says, “The Labour Party is not overrun by antisemitism, Islamophobia or any other forms of racism”. She goes on to explain issues of the background of the party and then the details of her inquiry.

Mr Burrowes

So, do you dissociate yourself from him when he said in his email to Labour MPs that antisemitic incidents that have been reported have been created by “malicious, anti-Labour forces”? Do you associate or dissociate yourself from that?

Jeremy Corbyn

I don’t agree with that, because some people clearly have suffered and do suffer. That is why we made some suspensions and are having some inquiries.

Mr Burrowes

Is it appropriate that since those remarks, the result was that he was promoted to the Front Bench?

Jeremy Corbyn

It wasn’t a result of that; he was promoted as there was a vacancy.

Mr Burrowes

Finally, is it appropriate—in your words, “your honour and pleasure”—to host antisemitic organisations such as Hamas?

Jeremy Corbyn

In the context of that, I have explained many times since it was drawn to my attention—interestingly, some years after it happened—that that was inclusive language used in order to bring people together to promote a dialogue and a peace process. As I have explained to some of your colleagues, I have met people in many contexts—Northern Ireland, Colombia and many other places—with whom I totally and profoundly disagree. You would probably totally and profoundly disagree with them. You only bring about a peace process if you talk to others. Indeed, former Prime Ministers have met Hamas on many more occasions than I have. Indeed, on one occasion I was with 60 European parliamentarians in Gaza after Operation Cast Lead. We had a long meeting with the Government of Gaza which, as you well know, is Hamas. Does that mean we approve of Hamas? No. Does it mean we want to see an end to the siege and a peace process? Absolutely, yes. That is why we were there. They were from all parties, by the way.

Mr Burrowes

But just to check on your views, do you believe, looking at the charter of Hamas, which you are very familiar with, that it is antisemitic?

Jeremy Corbyn

I don’t agree with the charter of Hamas, but I do think you have to have—

Mr Burrowes

Is it antisemitic?

Jeremy Corbyn

You have to have a dialogue with people that you disagree with.

Mr Burrowes

It is antisemitic, isn’t it?

Chair

May I help? This is what the charter says: “The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: ‘The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!’” That is in the charter of Hamas.

Jeremy Corbyn

That is completely unacceptable, obviously.

Mr Burrowes

Is it antisemitic?

Jeremy Corbyn

Yes, it is, but I’d say the Israeli Government on many occasions have, by proximity, met with Hamas, as Hamas has met with them. Is there a space for a peace process in the long run? There are former agents of Mossad and others who say the only way to bring about peace is by discussions with Hamas. Extremes have to come together on both sides.

Chair

Mr Rotheram, I thought it was you who was passing notes. Of course it wasn’t, it was Miss Chakrabarti. Miss Chakrabarti, I know you have been a witness here, but you are not today. Mr Corbyn is the leader of the Labour party and he is very capable of answering these questions. We would prefer you not to keep passing him notes.

Mr Umunna

At the launch of the Chakrabarti report, you said, “The Labour Party is built on the values of solidarity, social justice, equality, internationalism and human rights.” It is my determination to uphold those values, and no other consideration, that drives my questioning today. You also said in that speech: “To assume that a Jewish friend or fellow member is wealthy, part of some kind of financial or media conspiracy…is just wrong”. In the light of that, I want to clear up the issue of Mr Wadsworth, which has been brought up several times. In front of you, as has been said, he accused our friend and parliamentary colleague, Ruth Smeeth, of “working hand in hand” with The Daily Telegraph. As you know, Ruth is Jewish and is also a former deputy director of Hope Not Hate, the anti-racism and anti-extremism campaign. I know you were not chairing that press conference but for the sake of clarity, because I know you have said you feel it has been misreported, why, immediately after Mr Wadsworth made that claim—he was given a mic; I have watched it—didn’t you call him out for attacking Ruth Smeeth?

Jeremy Corbyn

Shami was chairing the press conference. She called him out. I answered his point. The second point he made was a legitimate one concerning black representation within the party. I absolutely concur with what Shami Chakrabarti said to him.

Mr Umunna

But do you accept that ordinary Labour party members would have wanted, with all those cameras rolling, to see you, as our leader, take a lead in calling him out and taking him on—not waiting for the chair of the press conference, which was a Labour party-organised press conference—for repeating what was a stereotypical slur in relation to Jewish people?

Jeremy Corbyn

He was called out. He is called out. He was wrong.

Mr Umunna

But you did not do so.

Jeremy Corbyn

We did that. It was Shami who was chairing the press conference. I answered the point he made. We have made it very, very clear what our position is.

Mr Umunna

In Shami’s report, she talks about people—

Chair

Could you refer to her as Ms Chakrabarti? I know she is a national treasure, but Ms Chakrabarti is her proper name.

Mr Umunna

In Ms Chakrabarti’s report, she talks about people employing insensitive, dehumanising and/or abusive language and stereotyping that has the effect of shutting down open discourse in our party. After Ruth took issue with Mr Wadsworth’s comments, she was told by some of your supporters in the room, sitting in the first two rows, to shut up and be quiet for taking issue with Mr Wadsworth’s comments. Why did you not step in and stop them doing that to her, given that they were seated right in front of you and Ms Chakrabarti?

Jeremy Corbyn

Shami did that, and they were shut up. They should not have made those—

Mr Umunna

But why didn’t you do it?

Jeremy Corbyn

Because I was not chairing the press conference.

Mr Umunna

But you are the leader of the Labour party. It was a Labour party-organised press conference.

Jeremy Corbyn

Listen, we made it very, very clear—I have made it very clear here, and we all make it very clear here—that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

Mr Umunna

Mr Wadsworth comes up to you on your way out. That was a third opportunity. Why did you not pick up Mr Wadsworth on what he had said to Ruth Smeeth?

Jeremy Corbyn

He wanted to talk to me, and I said, “Get in touch if you want to.” He has not been in touch. I explained that he was prevented from speaking to me on Monday by the police—there was no deliberate intention by the police.

Mr Umunna

But you did not see that as an opportunity to pick him up on his comments to Ruth Smeeth.

Jeremy Corbyn

I wanted—

Mr Umunna

Clearly not. Let me move on. Mr Wadsworth is a self-proclaimed Momentum activist. In his oral evidence to us, Ken Livingstone said, in relation to the comment by the vice-chair of Momentum, that he thought it was antisemitic to say that Jewish people were important in financing the slave trade because he did not believe that that was true. Do you agree with Mr Livingstone that that statement by the vice-chair of Momentum was antisemitic?

Jeremy Corbyn

You are talking about Jackie Walker.

Mr Umunna

Yes.

Jeremy Corbyn

Jackie Walker’s case was investigated, and she—

Mr Umunna

I know. I am just asking whether you think, as Ken Livingstone said to us, that to state that Jewish people were important in financing the slave trade is antisemitic because, as he said, it was not true. Do you think that what she said is antisemitic?

Jeremy Corbyn

True or not, it is the wrong comparison to draw.

Mr Umunna

Do you believe that it is antisemitic or not?

Jeremy Corbyn

I think if you condemn people for their faith and funding of something, yes, that does become antisemitic, because what you are doing then—as I think you would probably agree—is calling them out because of their faith or their ethnicity, rather than the fact of what they were doing, which was apparently funding the slave trade.

Mr Umunna

Okay. Momentum activist David Watson, who is active in Walthamstow and is the fundraising officer of that constituency Labour party, has been suspended pending an investigation into very serious allegedly antisemitic activity on social media. The national spokesperson for Momentum shared a platform with that individual on Saturday afternoon in Walthamstow. Do you think it is appropriate, in the light of the very serious allegations outstanding against Mr Watson, for the national spokesperson of Momentum to be sharing a platform with him?

Jeremy Corbyn

I was not aware that he had.

Mr Umunna

Would you think it appropriate?

Jeremy Corbyn

There is an investigation going on. I think we have to let due process take place.

Mr Umunna

I understand that the report presented to our party’s NEC by Baroness Royall into alleged antisemitism at Oxford University found evidence of it among members of that Labour club who were active in Momentum. Do you notice that time and time again in these incidents of activity and offence caused to and against Jewish people, Momentum seems to pop up quite frequently?

Jeremy Corbyn

Momentum members have been mentioned many times this afternoon in many other places. There are many people in Momentum of Jewish, Muslim and other faiths. I do not accept that it is in any way racist or antisemitic—quite the opposite. Those people are very active in opposition to racism in any form within our society.

Mr Umunna

I agree with you that there are some—

Jeremy Corbyn

And I am sure you would probably agree with me.

Mr Umunna

I agree with you that there are some good people in Momentum who have the best interests of the Labour party at heart and are horrified by what their fellow Momentum activists have been saying and doing, but there are others in that organisation who quite frankly do not have the party’s best interests at heart, and who have a history of campaigning against the Labour party—and still do. Many of them are not even members of our party, yet they seek to influence the affairs and the activities of the party. Indeed, staff at the Welsh Labour party HQ were told last Friday not to go to work because of fears for their safety after Momentum announced a demonstration outside the building. Frankly, Momentum is a party within a party posing as a movement, which is why many of our trade unions refuse to fund it. In order to help with this antisemitism issue, do you not think it would be helpful simply for Momentum to be wound up and shut down?

Jeremy Corbyn

Momentum is a place where many people who have come into political activity for the first time, or returned to political activity, are activating themselves—on housing issues, on transport issues, on wage issues and on many other issues. Surely that degree of engagement in political activity is a good thing. Surely that degree of commitment to social causes is a good thing. Surely, if that brings into the Labour party a whole generation who have been so put off by the politics of the past, that is something that we can welcome and, at the same time, educate people as to how they behave.

Mr Umunna

But there is no reason why they cannot do those things in a Labour party led by Jeremy Corbyn. We do not need a party within a party that often campaigns against the Labour party to do those things.

Jeremy Corbyn

Mr Umunna, I thought this was an inquiry about antisemitism.

Chair

Order. It is an inquiry into antisemitism and that question is out of order. This is not a seminar on Momentum or the way in which the Labour party operates. Do you have any more questions on antisemitism?

Mr Umunna

I do have one final one. I should say, Chair, that what I am doing is drawing a direct correlation and line of causation between some of the acts of antisemitism we have seen in the Labour party and the activities of Momentum, in which I accept there are good people, but there are also people who do not have the best interests of the party at heart. Can I just ask my final question, for the record? I should say that one of the things I have found most insulting about this issue of antisemitism in our party is the suggestion that I or any other Member of Parliament has raised this issue because we are somehow disgruntled careerist Blairites. My family have been victims of prejudice and hatred. My father was beaten up by the police when I was a child. The reason why I raise the issues that I have raised today has absolutely nothing to do with Tony Blair, who ceased to be the leader of the Labour party almost 10 years ago. It has nothing to do with my career—in case people hadn’t noticed, I actually am not in the shadow Cabinet. It has everything to do with my concern about us upholding the values in our party. I would appreciate it if you, as our leader, could send a very clear message that every MP who raises these issues should be afforded respect and should also be afforded the benefit of the doubt that what drives us is our concern about our values.

Chair

Thank you. Mr Corbyn, a quick answer.