Oral evidence: Radicalisation in prisons and other prison matters, HC 417Wednesday 13 July 2016

Oral evidence, 13 July 2016.

Witness

Rt Hon Michael Gove MP, Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, gave evidence.

Chair

Secretary of State, welcome, and my apologies for having kept you waiting. You will gather that these are important issues, and you will have heard some of the evidence that Mr Acheson gave. What I would like to do is start on the radicalisation issue, and then we are going to ask about some of the broader prison agenda over which you also preside.

Michael Gove

Thank you; I would be delighted to do so.

Chair

Could you help us, so far as you are able to at the moment, by giving your reaction to the Acheson review and its recommendations? Are you able to help us with the response you have made or are proposing to make?

Michael Gove

Yes. I heard some of Ian’s evidence to you, and I know that you took some evidence in private. In essence, I was very grateful to Ian for undertaking the work that he did. The report that he delivered contains a number of quite sensitive aspects of detail, which means that our view was that it was unsuitable for full publication. In conversation with Ian and with colleagues across Government, we have agreed in broad outline an abstract that goes to the heart of all the arguments that Ian made and sums up the recommendations. As I think Ian indicated, we have accepted the overwhelming majority of his recommendations and hope to implement them. We also hope to publish that abstract in due course. As I am sure the Committee will appreciate, the reason that it has not yet been published is that we need to secure the agreement of other Government Departments. Although there has been no opposition, there has been a natural desire on the part of other Government Departments, when dealing with such a sensitive matter, to make sure that every “i” is dotted and “t” crossed, but I hope that we will certainly be able to publish the summary and the recommendations in short order.

Chair

That is very helpful. I do not know if you can help us as to whether or not the point Mr Acheson raised about the Prevent awareness training having been fully rolled out has yet been taken on board.

Michael Gove

Yes. One of the things that Ian may have mentioned, and certainly that I would like to mention, is that we have made some changes at senior level in NOMS. An outstanding former governor, Claudia Sturt, is now taking forward this work, in order to ensure not only that the staff are appropriately trained but that some of the operational recommendations, which are well evidenced and appropriate—I hesitate to say straightforward—are now being implemented.

Chair

Would that also include making sure that the risk assessment requirements are fulfilled? There was some concern that was not the case.

Michael Gove

Yes, absolutely.

Chair

There was an issue raised around the situation of imams and some of the programmes that were used. There has been reference to the Tarbiyah programme. Have any steps been taken about that at this stage?

Michael Gove

Yes. There are two programmes that I should mention. One, Ibaana, had been in preparation before I arrived at the MOJ. I had a number of concerns about it, and we sought to replace it. In relation to Tarbiyah, again a number of concerns have been brought to my attention about that programme, and we are rewriting it. I have talked to colleagues in NOMS, and we are making sure that we have external support, including from the think-tank Quilliam and others.

Chair

Do you propose to make any changes to reinforce the capacity of NOMS in the light of the findings?

Michael Gove

Yes, I do. Again, I must be careful, because one of the things we know, at a time of political change, is that there will be a new Home Secretary in place in the next 48 to 72 hours. I must allow him or her, because he or she will be the lead Minister with respect to extremism, to have a chance to read the report and come to any conclusions they might about other areas.

Chair

That is perfectly understood. Mr Acheson talked about the sophisticated model that was postulated relating to the small number of prisoners who may be so dangerous that they need to be incapacitated. Are you in a position yet to say what the Government’s approach is to that?

Michael Gove

Again, I am very sympathetic to the recommendations that Ian has made. He gave a very clear and comprehensive analysis of not only some of the dangers and challenges of concentrating the most difficult prisoners but some of the dangers and challenges of allowing them to continue to be in a position where they can proselytise and radicalise. It is our belief that the way in which we currently deal with those prisoners needs to change, but again it is vitally important that I give whoever is the new Home Secretary an opportunity to ensure that he or she is happy with our recommendations as well.

Alberto Costa

Are you in a position to say, Secretary of State, given the comments Mr Acheson made about the number of Muslim prison officers, whether or not there will be any form of positive recruitment for many more Muslim prison officers?

Michael Gove

Overall, we need to make sure that we augment the capacity of existing prison officers and new recruits to understand the challenges. We also need to make sure that under-represented communities are part of the Prison Service. I am absolutely committed to making sure that we can recruit more people who have a Muslim faith background to work in our prisons, yes.

Dr Huq

It is good to see you, Lord Chancellor. This time last week we thought you might not be here because you might have other leadership things in mind, but they seem to have fallen like skittles since then. Good to see you this morning. We are just gathering what we can from leaks from the report so far, because it is not out. I wondered if you had seen the Barrow Cadbury Trust’s funded report called “Young Muslims on Trial” and a paper by a theologian called Ryan Williams—not Rowan Williams—from Cambridge University. They have both concluded that people can often jump to wrong conclusions about things like Muslim prisoners praying and reading the Koran. They have come up with conclusions, including the one that Mr Costa put to you, about having more Muslim prison officers. I would caution you to take heed of these academic findings. Often there is wrong-end-of-the-stick-itis. Conversion is often seen as a sinister thing. I know you are a Wham fan from seeing you rap, but Ian Brown, the lead singer of Stone Roses, apparently converted to Islam for a period when he was in prison because he said the food was better; he got chickpea curry and not spam. What is your opinion on another recommendation, which was the licensing of imams? That has been floated before in various forums.

Michael Gove

There was an amazingly comprehensive range of allusions in that question, from my being struck out as a skittle in the course of the last seven days to my fondness for 1980s music. At the core of your question are two very important points, if I may say so. The first is that it is often the case that people find faith in prison, and it is often the case that that faith, whether it is Christianity, Islam or another, can be a source of renewal for that individual and can give structure, meaning and purpose to their life. You are absolutely right to say that we need to draw a clear distinction between people who use their time in custody to reflect on their past life and then embrace faith—a wholly welcome thing—and radicalisation. I have always tried, both in my previous career as a journalist and as a politician, to draw a very clear distinction between religious piety and political extremism. Your question gives me an opportunity to restate that. It is really important that we stress that they are two very different things, and it will often be the case that people will embrace religious piety but absolutely do not cross over into engaging in political extremism. Staff in prisons from a variety of backgrounds can help us to ensure that the decisions of an individual to convert or to deepen their faith are respected and supported, but that the separate path that some may go down of political radicalisation is detected and dealt with. Related to that was your point about academic research. That is critical too. There is academic research about the impact of incarceration on people as they reflect on the decisions they have made in the past and the new moral path that they might follow. That is important, and so too is academic research into radicalisation and the particular factors that lead some people to go down that path. It will certainly continue to influence the work we do in NOMS, as it has already influenced Ian’s work. On the final point about licensing imams, in the light of some of Ian’s recommendations we are reviewing how we do that. The one thing I want to say is that I have met and benefited from conversations with some outstanding imams who are currently working in our prisons. I would not want any cloud to hang over anyone who is currently working in our prison system. Those whom I have met and have had the pleasure of talking to are doing an outstanding job.

Dr Huq

Are you monitoring the rise of post-Brexit racism within prisons? The Guardian last week said that it has rocketed there as well.

Michael Gove

I listened to the Director of Public Prosecutions earlier today, who made the point that more hate crime was reported overall in the course of the last 12 months. She made the point that at the moment it was difficult to tell what all the factors were that had led to that increase in the reporting of hate crime. Of course, we monitor all sorts of incidents that occur in prison. As you know, and as we acknowledged in the House of Commons on Monday, there has been a significant increase in serious assaults in the prison estate. We try very hard to ensure that we monitor the reasons why assaults have been on the increase. Whether or not there is a relationship to outside political events, I will leave to others to decide.

Chair

We will move on to the broader prison reform agenda, but I am grateful for your help on those very important matters, Secretary of State.

Mr Hanson

In March, we discussed some of the issues around the proposed reform prisons. We now have six reform prisons in place and six governors for reform prisons in place. How did we choose the prisons and the governors?

Michael Gove

We chose the governors in consultation with NOMS. We chose people who were outstanding leaders within the Prison Service. We chose a range of prisons. We did not simply want to choose prisons that were already performing well. We wanted to show that in a variety of different contexts a greater degree of autonomy could bring results. The idea of choosing those six prisons was to ensure that they were as representative a cross-section as possible of the prison estate, in order not to cherry-pick prisons that would automatically prove a particular preconceived agenda.

Mr Hanson

I genuinely want to get to the bottom of what a reform prison means. Last week when we asked the prisons and probation ombudsman in this very room, and when we asked the chief inspector of prisons in this very room, they did not have much of a clue as to what it meant in real terms—and also what the baseline was from which they were monitoring what it meant in real terms. Perhaps you could help us by giving some indication of what you expect of a reform prison as of 1 July.

Michael Gove

As of 1 July, reform prison governors have been given operational freedom in a variety of areas, over everything from how they allocate their budget to the ways in which they can reward individuals who work in those prisons. The principle is that a greater degree of autonomy should progressively be granted to those prisons. At the moment, the governors are free from a variety of the NOMS regulations that have hitherto ensured that they operate within particular constraints. I hope that when we publish both our White Paper later this year and then legislation in due course, additional freedoms and additional independence will be entrenched in statute.

Mr Hanson

Why would the chief inspector of prisons, at question 35 last week, when I asked him what he understood a reform prison to be, say, “There is still a lot of opaqueness around that”? If he does not know, how does the estate know, how does the Prison Service know and how do the public know what the benchmark is and what the tests are for the reform prisons?

Michael Gove

I would say two things. The first is that the chief inspector of prisons was absolutely right. There will be more detail to come, as I mentioned. The principle of reform prisons is to give people gradually increasing levels of autonomy. The best answer I can give to your question is to look at what individual governors have done and are doing differently in order to take advantage of the new freedoms they have. For example, one governor is responsible for Kirklevington Grange and Holme House—two individual prisons—and one of the things that he has done is take advantage of the fact that he no longer has to follow the PRS, the prison rating system, which is drawn up by NOMS. As a result of that he has been able to ensure that individuals who otherwise, under the pre-existing regime, would have been incentivised to be in the workshop in the prison, can now work outside the prison in a way that makes it easier for them to acquire the habits and develop the pro-social behaviour that will make it easier for them to take up work on the outside when released. I would say that seeing is believing. The answer to what a reform prison is doing that is different is to look at the changes that have been made. It is 12 days since the first reform prison governors were given the opportunity to make changes, and already we are seeing steps being taken in each of the individual institutions.

Mr Hanson

I accept that, Secretary of State. This is not from somebody who is opposed to the general principle. I am simply trying to get to the fact that, if the chief inspector of prisons and the prisons ombudsman said to us last week that they do not know what the baseline is for measuring the success of the prisons, I am interested to know from you what you think is the baseline. There are changes, but how do you judge whether improvements have been made through the reform programme?

Michael Gove

In a speech that I gave last night to the all-party parliamentary group on penal affairs, I made the point that ultimately there will be long-term judgments that we make about the success that these prisons have in rehabilitating offenders and ensuring that individuals do not go on to reoffend. It is also the case that there are short-term judgments that we can make about how effectively prisons are operating. In our White Paper we will be outlining a new system of accountability designed to ensure that prisons—not just reform prisons but all prisons—are judged more effectively on the impact that they make on the lives of individuals in custody.

Mr Hanson

Are the current Prison Service instructions centrally issued by NOMS still valid in all reform prisons?

Michael Gove

Not all of them, no.

Mr Hanson

Which ones are not?

Michael Gove

Individual governors have freedom to depart from some of the PRS criteria, for example, as I mentioned earlier.

Mr Hanson

I think it would be very helpful if you could publish now—because we need to know, and I am sure the prisons ombudsman and the prisons inspector would need to know—which PSIs, prison service instructions, are not being utilised, or which ones governors could move away from.

Michael Gove

Yes.

Mr Hanson

Is that an agreement to publish which PSIs governors can now—

Michael Gove

In the reform prisons, absolutely, yes.

Mr Hanson

Before the White Paper.

Michael Gove

Yes, there is no reason not to.

Mr Hanson

That would be very helpful. Secondly, could you tell us whether or not the reform prisons have had extra funding as part of any allocation on Prison Service issues to deal with, for example, prison safety?

Michael Gove

There are two separate things. There has been some additional funding for the reform prisons in order to make the transition, but it is also the case that 69 prisons have received additional funding to deal with security issues. NOMS made an operational judgment about which prisons within the overall prison estate required additional funding in order to deal with particular security problems.

Mr Hanson

What about other Government Departments? Obviously, from 1 July, reform prisons could potentially commission health, employment and skills services from departments other than the Departments of Health or Business. What is their view of that? What assessment is being made by DH and BIS of the reform prison programme?

Michael Gove

With respect to BIS and Education, BIS have transferred the money that used to be allocated, through OLASS, to particular further education colleges for prisoner education, and that money is coming to the MOJ. Reform prisons are in the vanguard of being able to commission alternative education provision. As for health, we have been in discussion with Health Ministers about how we can commission or co-commission services in the future more effectively. So far we have found that both BIS and the Department of Health have been hugely encouraging about the direction we wish to go in.

Mr Hanson

Could you give us some indication of whether there is another jurisdiction anywhere else in the world that currently has that level of local government autonomy on performance metrics, league tables and assessment of individual governor performance, and, ultimately, whether there is a model you are working to or whether this is entirely home-grown?

Michael Gove

It is not entirely home-grown, no. It has been influenced by looking at penal policy in other European countries—I was about to say other EU countries—and by looking at some of the steps that have been taken in similar jurisdictions from Singapore to Canada. Of course, our reform programme has been influenced by what happens in other jurisdictions, but it is also shaped by some of the unique circumstances that prevail in our prison estate.

Mr Hanson

I have one final point, which links to what the prisons ombudsman and the prison inspector said. Ultimately, when things go well in the reform prison, lots of people will take credit. If things go wrong in the reform prison, where does accountability lie? Is it with the governor, NOMS management or the Minister? Where does accountability lie ultimately?

Michael Gove

With me.

Mr Hanson

That is clear enough.

Victoria Prentis

Let’s hope it stays that way. As a Committee, we are absolutely interested in and keen on the idea of reform prisons. I am sorry to be balls-aching, but we need to look very carefully at how we measure the results that come out of them. With regard to the pilots, you said “vanguard” earlier, which I thought was a telling word. Are they also being used as a test? Are they pilots in the true sense of the word?

Michael Gove

Yes. The point about the choice of those six prisons and the four governors who are responsible for them is to help prepare the way for what we hope will be a greater degree of autonomy overall within the prison system. Analogies have been used, and they are not always helpful even though I have used them myself, but I will deploy them now because they are probably the best way of understanding things. When the first academy schools were established, and when the first foundation hospitals were created, the intent was to ensure that people at the frontline could exercise a greater degree of freedom. Indeed, we learned from some of the—I hesitate to say missed steps—particular policies that were piloted in the early academy schools before we then went on to refine the model. By “we”, I mean the preceding Labour Government, the coalition Government and this Government. At the moment, the principle is that new governors were appointed. From 1 July they were given a greater degree of operational freedom. The White Paper will outline, and legislation will subsequently outline, how a greater degree of autonomy—

Victoria Prentis

Can I stop you for a minute? I think you told the House last month that your original intention was to publish a White Paper and the draft Bill at the same time in the autumn. Has that now changed?

Michael Gove

My intention is to publish a White Paper this autumn. I have asked the Department to make sure that it will be ready for publication in October. If it is ready earlier, I will let you know. The Bill will come later than that. It is important that there is an opportunity for people to reflect on and discuss the White Paper before we then produce legislation. One of the things I also want to do is to make sure that the working behind the legislation we produce—the proposed prison and courts reform Bill—is shared with this Committee at the earliest possible time.

Victoria Prentis

Will we get it in draft?

Michael Gove

I am not sure yet whether or not there will be a draft Bill or whether we will produce a means of allowing a discussion around particular policy areas both in prisons and in courts reform before we then move to producing a Bill.

Alberto Costa

Ms Prentis has more or less asked my questions, but could you briefly expand your answer in terms of the timetable for the legislative proposals?

Michael Gove

My hope is that we will be able to introduce the Bill in the course of this parliamentary session, but I think it will be at the back end of the parliamentary session. I do not think that we will have a Bill ready to go until the beginning of the new calendar year.

Chair

Secretary of State, we are embarking upon this immensely ambitious programme of reform as well as estate modernisation, which we will touch on in a moment. At the same time we are doing that against the background, which we were both discussing in the Chamber on Monday, of pressures on prison safety. Are you confident that there is enough capacity in terms of staff and managerial capacity at the moment within NOMS and the Prison Service both to make the reforms and to meet the safety challenges? The concern is that you cannot do the two at the same time.

Michael Gove

I quite understand. Unless we make some of the reforms that we have been talking about, we will not deal with the particular problems that we have with safety and security. One of the concerns that I have had since coming to office is the way in which prisoners’ time is deployed and the way in which prisoners themselves are given a sense of hope and optimism about their future. I will mention two things in particular. We are proposing to change the incentives and earned privileges scheme to ensure that there is a greater degree of governor control and autonomy, so that behaviour in prison is more closely linked to a governor’s judgment about the regime that an individual should enjoy. I was very struck, as I may have told the Committee before, about the way in which the MCTC, the armed forces prison in Colchester, has a very close relationship on the part of the commanding officer between behaviour and reward, or in some cases sanction. That creates a much more positive environment. Some of the problems we have with security and safety come as a result of boredom, frustration and a sense of futility and hopelessness on the part of prisoners, which means that either they resort to drug-taking or their frustrations manifest themselves in violence. If there is a more constructive regime, it can make a change. One other area, which affects only a small number of prisoners but is one where I am anxious to move, is with respect to IPP prisoners. Yesterday, I had the opportunity to talk to Nick Hardwick, the chair of the Parole Board. It is important that we recognise that, although there are some prisoners who are currently in that regime who must remain in custody because they pose a risk to the public, we must do much better in making sure that we process those cases. If individuals believe that they are going to remain in custody for a significant amount of time and there is very little they can do to influence that, it again creates an atmosphere of frustration that contributes to making the estate less easy to manage. Reform is a necessary aspect of making sure that we provide calmness and order in the prison estate.

Victoria Prentis

Your Department has very kindly provided us with confidential information about IPP prisoners up to March this year. Do you have any observations about the characteristics of those prisoners—the type of prisoners who are currently held under IPP sentences?

Michael Gove

One can divide it in certain ways. There are just over 650 whose tariff was for two years or less.

Victoria Prentis

It is those who most concern us, as they must you.

Michael Gove

Exactly. Talking to the chair of the Parole Board yesterday, they are the individuals who are the focus of our greatest attention. There are also some who have been in custody for longer than would have been the case if they had simply had a determinate sentence for that crime. There are people who have been in prison for far longer than would have been the case if they had been given the maximum sentence that was not an IPP. Of course, there will always be individuals, some of whom might have been sentenced for a relatively short period, whose previous record of offending and whose risk mean that they should remain in custody. But it is that particular cohort that is the focus of our greatest attention.

Victoria Prentis

Would you consider changing the release test or other legislative change in order to deal with that cohort?

Michael Gove

I am actively considering what we can do at the moment. I do not want to anticipate what I or the Parole Board will say, but I think you can take it as an absolute yes that we want to make sure that we make progress.

Victoria Prentis

That in itself is helpful. One other way we could help to deal with this is by the provision of more offender training courses so that prisoners are able to prove that they have done the offender work. Is there a plan at the moment to target such work at IPP prisoners?

Michael Gove

That is one of the areas that I am in discussion about with both NOMS and the Parole Board. We want to make sure that people have an opportunity to demonstrate that they have engaged in such a way as to reduce significantly any risk on their release. We want to ensure that people who are determined to demonstrate that they have turned the corner and wish to make a positive contribution are given the opportunity to do so. You are absolutely right to draw attention to the fact that there are individuals who have been denied the opportunity to prove that.

Victoria Prentis

Is there going to be extra monitoring of IPP prisoners on their release? Is that something you have considered?

Michael Gove

One of the things that we need to consider is not so much extra monitoring but the rules around recall. Again, I do not want to anticipate what we may say, but you are absolutely right to suggest that, at the same time as taking a potentially new approach to this cohort, we also need to provide people with appropriate reassurance, both that these judgments are being made holistically and in the interests of public safety overall and that individuals on release are going to be treated fairly and given a positive opportunity to demonstrate that they are now making a contribution to society.

Victoria Prentis

Thank you; that is very helpful. Perhaps we could ask that you come back, if necessary, when the plans are slightly more advanced to discuss it. This is clearly not quite the moment to do so.

Michael Gove

I absolutely hope to, and without wanting to speak for him, I am sure that, once some of the policy detail has been thrashed out, Nick Hardwick would be delighted to come and explain how the Parole Board will help us in that role.

Chair

Indeed. He has been most helpful and frank with us so far.

Alex Chalk

I want to pick up some of the comments you made earlier, Secretary of State. If I may say so, as context for my question, I and many of my colleagues hugely welcome the agenda that you have come up with—trying to get rid of boredom and frustration, reform prisons, the treasure in the heart of every man; it is all fantastic—but can you achieve any of that where you have prisoners in certain prisons locked up for 23 hours a day? Isn’t that really what you have to focus on before you can do all the other exciting stuff?

Michael Gove

To paraphrase, we have to walk and chew gum at the same time. We have to do both. You are right. It is not restricted to local prisons but it is particularly acute in local prisons; there are individuals who are in their own cell for an insupportably long period. That needs to change, absolutely. One of the reform prisons, Wandsworth, is a local prison. It is very big, and because of the nature of its design it is not an optimum place in which to keep offenders. Nevertheless, there are changes being made by Ian Bickers, the governor there, even now, in order to ensure that there is more purposeful activity for more of the prisoners more of the time. You are right: it is in no one’s interests to have a situation where individuals are behind their own door for that length of time.

Alex Chalk

What I am anxious to ensure is that, while one is focusing on all these exciting ideas, one does not lose sight of the wood for the trees. The wood, if I may respectfully say, is to get people out of their cells and on to courses. That has to be act 1, scene 1, hasn’t it, otherwise everything else is doomed?

Michael Gove

Yes. The first thing I would say is that, broadly, making sure that prisoners are engaged in purposeful activity is a sign that a prison is working well. One of the things I have discovered doing this job—I knew it anyway from Education—is that having one target or one metric for what a successful institution looks like skews behaviour. Certainly, if one were to have to choose one, ensuring people were involved in purposeful activity would be just that. One of the things about Sally Coates’s education review is that it was explicitly designed to ensure that we did not just improve the provision but changed the culture in all our prisons to ensure that more prisoners were able to acquire the qualifications that would enable them to succeed on the outside. One of the other changes, of course, that reform prisons are pioneering is making it easier for prisoners to undertake work, and allowing prison governors to use the money that comes from prisoners doing productive work to reinvest in the prison and in the regime, so that we reinforce positive incentives to get people contributing positively.

Alex Chalk

Fantastic. Can we have confidence that your Department will keep a laser focus on that issue of the amount of time people are inside, because it is such an important metric?

Michael Gove

We focus on a variety of metrics and, absolutely, we are keeping a particular focus on that. Colleagues in the Department know that that is the one metric that I have said I am most attached to, but they have also stressed to me that it is important to balance them all together.

Dr Huq

I want to ask about prison estate modernisation. The announcements we are getting on prison closures seem to happen on an ad hoc basis once the decision is made. Also, a number of those that have been closed have not been disposed of. There are going to be five new prisons in the four remaining years of this Parliament, if we do not have a snap election. Do you remain committed to that? If so, when will we hear when the new prisons will be built?

Michael Gove

Yes. If I am still in post, snap election or not, I hope the details will be announced in the autumn. I would not say that there has been an ad hoc approach. We announced the closure of one particular prison, Holloway, for particular reasons to do with the reconfiguration of the female estate. We made an announcement about the closure of HMP Kennet, because it was not the best site for holding the prisoners who were there. We will be saying more in the autumn both about which prisons we propose to close and about where new prisons might be built.

Dr Huq

Is there a clear strategy for prison closures and decommissioning?

Michael Gove

Yes.

Dr Huq

We are all in the dark about this. We do not know what is in your report on radicalisation, and these prisons are being kept secret.

Michael Gove

There are two things I would say. First, on radicalisation, I think Ian Acheson has been admirably clear and honest with you. More information will be shared in due course. As for the prison estate transformation, work is going on at the moment, including determination to ensure that we have the best commercial advice, to identify which sites would be the best to sell. We have identified prisons that could be closed on the basis of a variety of factors and we will present in the autumn our final decision on which should, and where new prisons should be built.

Dr Huq

In March you told us that the remainder of the estate, which is seven eighths of the prison population, would continue to be invested in. Is that still the case? I am asking about Wormwood Scrubs, local to me. Two prison officers have been attacked recently and there are staff walk-outs. People want assurances. You mentioned the Sally Coates education review. Will all those things continue? Will digitisation and all those kinds of things go ahead? At the moment it feels like stalemate.

Michael Gove

You are absolutely right to be concerned about Wormwood Scrubs. As I stressed earlier, local prisons tend to pose the greatest challenges for NOMS and governors. There have been particular challenges in Wormwood Scrubs. Funnily enough, it was one of the first prisons I visited when I was Education Secretary. The experience there convinced me of the need for us to change the way in which our prisons are run. What I would say is that we will continue to invest in the maintenance and upgrading of the estate that is not sold.

Chair

One of the key things for the success of the reform prisons is going to be the monitoring approach. You said very fairly to Mr Hanson that ultimately the buck stops with you as the Secretary of State. Will you be publishing the criteria against which success or otherwise is monitored, and the process by which that is done?

Michael Gove

Yes. There are three different ways in which I would like to see accountability exercised. The first is that there should be certain clear dipstick measures, as I have termed them, which mean that at any given point one can see how well a prison is operating. Following Alex’s point, one of them would be, for example, the amount of time spent in purposeful activity—not just out of cell, but in purposeful activity. There will be a range of metrics that anyone could look at and see how well the prison was doing at that point. Secondly, it is only fair to allow governors themselves to set aspirational targets for their own institutions. We can then say, “Okay, Ian Bickers, you want to achieve X and Y at Wandsworth. That is great, and we will measure you against that.” The final thing—the most difficult—is to draw a direct line between what happens in the institution and the subsequent behaviour of offenders. We know of course that you cannot place direct responsibility on an individual governor for the actions thereafter of everyone who has been in their institution, but we need to try to ensure there is a relationship between what we do in custody and the likelihood of reoffending.

Chair

You make a fair point about what happens thereafter. That links to the transforming rehabilitation programme. Is the Department reviewing that at the moment, independently?

Michael Gove

Yes, we are. One of the things that we want to make sure of is that we have the right mix between the National Probation Service and individual community rehabilitation companies. The other thing, as I think I mentioned in the House the other day, is that some of the community rehabilitation companies are performing more strongly than others, and it is important that we learn from those that are working well and support those that may be going through difficult times.

Chair

Perhaps that is a topic we can return to. We are glad to know that there is a review. The final thing from my point of view, unless any members have other questions, is the Bill—the prisons and courts Bill. Could you help us with what the courts bit of it might be? Might it include, for example, different approaches to sentencing, which might reduce the pressures on the prison population?

Michael Gove

Yes, absolutely. I would say two things, and thank you very much for touching on it. The first is that some of the changes will have been prefigured by Lord Leveson’s and Lord Briggs’s work. They reflect the broader programme of HMCTS reform, which is secured with Treasury backing. I hope that before Parliament rises we will be able to publish a broad narrative outlining the nature of courts reform. It is my intention, if I am still in post, to do that next week if the new Prime Minister is happy with that. There is one particular thing that I am very keen to do, and where I have been delighted by the support from the judiciary, and that is to move towards problem-solving courts. This Committee has made the case for just that approach, and we hope that four or five Crown courts will be able to adopt a problem-solving approach. I am sure every member of the Committee appreciates why both in north Liverpool and in the Glasgow drugs court we have seen examples of the judiciary being actively engaged in diverting people away from custody by ensuring that they receive support, whether that is mental health care or drug and alcohol abuse support, to tackle the cause of their offending behaviour. It has been hugely encouraging that the judiciary have been so positive and engaged in this work. It is a move away from the traditional role of the judge as the impartial dispenser of a sentence and the impassive face of justice to a much more personal and engaged approach to try to ensure that an offender’s behaviour is tackled effectively. It is great that the judiciary, and the Lord Chief Justice in particular, have shown such leadership on this.

Chair

You are absolutely right, and I am grateful for that comment about Lord Thomas, because every one of us who has engaged with him, right the way down the ranks of the judiciary, has found how positive this approach is.

Michael Gove

Let me place on record my huge gratitude to the whole judicial executive board, but also to the Lord Chief Justice. He is an outstanding leader of the judiciary.

Chair

We are at one on that. The renewed commitment to radical reform in the area is a very positive note, which I think we all share as members of the Committee. I thank you as always for your time, your courtesy and your evidence, Secretary of State. We look forward, I very much hope, to continuing to discuss this with you in the future.

Michael Gove

It is a pleasure to appear before this Committee. Thank you very much. Oral evidence: Radicalisation in Prisons and other prison matters, HC 417 3