Oral evidence: Sexual Harassment in the Workplace, HC 725

Oral evidence, 23 May 2018.

Witnesses

Megan Butler, Lorna Fitzjohn, Dr Henrietta Hughes and Philip White.

Chair

Good morning. Thank you so much for coming along today. I will very swiftly move on. I apologise for keeping you waiting. Before we start with the questions, perhaps you could just say your name and the organisation you represent, starting with Megan.

Megan Butler

Megan Butler, Executive Director of Supervision from the Financial Conduct Authority.

Lorna Fitzjohn

Lorna Fitzjohn, Regional Director for Ofsted.

Dr Hughes

Hello. My name is Henrietta Hughes. I’m the National Guardian for the NHS.

Philip White

I am Philip White, Head of Operational Strategy at the Health and Safety Executive.

Eddie Hughes

What do you think are the most effective incentives for employers in your sector to take action to tackle sexual harassment?

Dr Hughes

In the NHS, we really need to have staff who feel valued and respected at work so that they can deliver the best compassionate care to their patients, and sexual harassment is certainly part of the overall bullying and harassment that staff in the NHS report every year. I think it’s really important that it hasn’t been done in a granular way, but it’s certainly something that is a massive incentive for employers to ensure that all of their staff feel safe and supported at work.

Lorna Fitzjohn

I would just like to reiterate that. Talking about the school sector, it’s very important that staff are retained and that they’re happy and productive in the workplace. However, schools also have a responsibility to create a positive environment for children to learn in. Leadership in that school should also provide a good role model for young people.

Eddie Hughes

What about other things, inasmuch as any legal obligation or bad publicity that might ensue? Are those not motivators or drivers?

Dr Hughes

I would certainly say that it would be worse publicity for an organisation if something was going on that they are not aware of than to actually be transparent about it and to ensure that action is taken. The actions are really key in this.

Megan Butler

From our perspective, regulatory focus is a key incentive for achieving focus on this in the financial services industry. That is why it is central to what we do.

Philip White

The only point I would add is that, ultimately, the main incentive is sanctions. When the chips are down, sanctions against employers will ultimately drive change.

Chair

Sorry, but the Victorians weren’t good on acoustics. If you could raise your voices, we would be very grateful. Thank you.

Vicky Ford

We just can’t hear.

Chair

It is difficult to hear in this room.

Eddie Hughes

I just have a few questions in a row, Philip, so maybe we both need to shout—forgive me for that. Would employers be correct to consider sexual harassment a health and safety issue as well as an equalities issue?

Philip White

I think we have to be very careful about what we mean by health and safety. A number of aspects, whether safeguarding, food hygiene, fire safety or a number of other areas, are placed at the door of health and safety. Where HSE is coming from is health and safety at work. Our key focus in this area is around what we would consider violence and aggression, particularly from third parties. We see particular challenges in a number of sectors, whether retail, health and social care, some other areas of the public sector, logistics and transport, and so on. We are focused on the violence and aggression aspect. Invariably, matters are not compartmentalised in the workplace, so some issues, including sexual harassment, might come into that broader ambit, but our focus is very much around violence and aggression to workers as they go about their daily work.

Eddie Hughes

Do you have a role with regard to sexual harassment?

Philip White

Our view is that, where there is more specific regulation and legislation, and where there are more specific bodies that deal with these issues, they should deal with these matters. In this area there is legislation, whether it is the Equality Act 2010, the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 or the Sexual Offences Act 2003. That is enforced by people like the police, and the Equality and Human Rights Commission also has a role. Our view is therefore that they are better placed to deal with these issues when they arise. However, that is not to say that there could be an overlap in some areas.

Eddie Hughes

I am slightly confused by the “S” in HSE—the safety element. Surely employers have a duty to ensure that, when their employees come to work, they are safe. Sexual harassment surely constitutes a breach of safety. Is there a duty on employers, under health and safety law, to protect their staff from sexual harassment?

Philip White

There is no specific duty under health and safety legislation regarding sexual harassment.

Eddie Hughes

Health and safety law can be slightly vague sometimes and is open to interpretation. Is there no existing law that you think could be interpreted in such a way as to relate to sexual harassment?

Philip White

There is no specific legal requirement under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 or its framework in relation to sexual harassment. As I said earlier, other legislation applies to this area, and where there is more specific regulation or legislation, we look to those and to the organisations that enforce them to act within their locus.

Jess Phillips

Do you know what caused the most deaths of women at work last year?

Philip White

I don’t know.

Jess Phillips

Would you consider that deaths of women at work came under Health and Safety Executive legislation?

Philip White

If they were killed by a reversing vehicle or an exposure to gas—

Jess Phillips

So when their safety is not their interpersonal safety, it would come under the Health and Safety Executive?

Chair

Surely a death at work would come under you?

Jess Phillips

The answer is violence against women.

Philip White

A death at work, when that happens, is initially investigated by the police in relation to potential for corporate manslaughter. If there is a violent incident, we will investigate that. In fact, HSE recently took a prosecution against a local authority where two social workers went to visit a client. They were hit over the head with a metal bar. They were not killed, but they were seriously injured. We investigated that jointly with the police. The police took a prosecution for the violent behaviour. We took a prosecution against the local authority because we felt that the evidence showed that their procedures and processes were not followed, or were not appropriate for dealing with the violence.

Jess Phillips

So if a workplace did not have procedures in place that kept their staff safe at work, that is under the remit of the Health and Safety Executive, in that example.

Philip White

In that example, where there was violence.

Jess Phillips

Okay. So if your employer does not have policies that keep you safe at work from violence, would that be a responsibility of the Health and Safety Executive?

Philip White

In terms of physical violence, yes.

Jess Phillips

Regardless of who that is from?

Philip White

Typically, our experience is that it is third parties that create that violence. There have been other cases—last month there was a murder on a construction site in London. That is clearly a matter, in our view, for the police to investigate. It is not a matter for HSE.

Jess Phillips

Of course, but do you think that the Health and Safety Executive has a role in making sure that workplaces have safety practices at work that keep people safe from violence at work?

Philip White

Yes.

Jess Phillips

Okay, so does the Health and Safety Executive have any specific guidance for violence against women and girls at work?

Philip White

We don’t have any specific advice regarding violence against women and girls at work, but there is guidance and case studies in relation to managing violence at work on our website. There is also a European piece of guidance that has been developed by the social partners that we and other Government Departments have signed up to.

Jess Phillips

Three women were murdered at work last year due to violence against women and girls, so it might be worth looking into.

Eddie Hughes

I think it might. Would sexual harassment be something that you would look at in a risk assessment when you go into assess companies to see whether they are appropriately keeping their staff safe?

Philip White

Looking specifically at violence and aggression is a very limited part of our work plan because we have a strategy set out for focusing our work in particular areas. We have limited resources. We have to place them where we can achieve the biggest outcomes, and prevent major hazard and catastrophe happening—from at oil and gas facilities, gas pipelines and the like. However, where we have looked at violence and aggression—we recently did this in relation to the Prison Service—we will look at the employers’ policies and arrangements for managing violence and aggression.

Eddie Hughes

But not sexual harassment?

Philip White

We are not specifically looking at policies for sexual harassment, but violence and aggression in the round.

Eddie Hughes

I appreciate that this is a subjective question, but do you think that you should—given the prevalence of this, the amount it has been talked about, and the effect that it has on women? Do you think it would be appropriate for health and safety to have a remit here? It seems clearly to fall under the “S” bit of the acronym. When women are going to work, they deserve to be safe. The Health and Safety Executive has part of that remit, surely.

Philip White

I do not think there is any argument about any one of us not wanting people to be harmed at work in any way. The danger is, as I said earlier, that safety can be interpreted in a very broad way. We have things put to our door about safeguarding, food hygiene and what I would call traditional health and safety risks at the workplace. Then you move into these other areas. There is legislation pertaining to issues relating to employment law and issues relating to equality and sexual harassment at work. There are bodies that can enforce that legislation, and the police obviously have a key role here. Our view is that if there is more appropriate legislation, it is for other bodies to take that up. We do not see this as a mainstream health and safety at work issue under the Health and Safety at Work Act.

Chair

So that is driven by legislation, not by any decision taken by the Health and Safety Executive.

Philip White

No. I come back to this point: our policy is very much that where there is other more specific legislation—and there is a raft of other legislation that covers this area of sexual harassment and harassment—that is more applicable, and those who are responsible for enforcing that, or dealing with those, should take the appropriate actions. We cannot fill the gap that may or may not be there in relation to that issue.

Eddie Hughes

So if somebody was concerned that an employer was not doing enough to protect their employees from sexual harassment, that is not something that the Health and Safety Executive would be—I nearly said interested in—concerned with?

Philip White

People do raise concerns with us, and we look at that and we have to take each case on its merits in terms of what the particular elements of the concern or the complaint are. We pass those on to other authorities, which could be the police, local authorities or ACAS—

Eddie Hughes

But you would not have taken any enforcement action in regard to those.

Philip White

There are some matters where sexual harassment might be part and parcel of a broader picture about how that employer is dealing with violence and aggression. It is foreseeable that someone might be concerned that their employer is not dealing with a number of issues to do with their own safety. Part of that might be sexual harassment, and the major bulk might be concerns about aggression or threats of violence from third parties. We might well look into that and, depending on what we find, we might refer the sexual harassment bit, if it is an issue, to the relevant authorities, or it could just be dealt with by putting a policy in place to deal with the third-party risk. It is not easy to compartmentalise everything exactly here; there are overlaps. When you deal with one issue, it might resolve a small amount of another issue, if that makes sense.

Eddie Hughes

Are you doing any work with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to plan to address it and to consider the topic further?

Philip White

We are meeting with them early next month. One thing is clear: we can always improve the way we work with other agencies and authorities. We have liaised with them in the past. It is something that we perhaps need to improve and raise our game on, in terms of more regular liaison and engagement with them.

Chair

I am still not really clear who decided that violence or threats of violence are something you deal with, but threats of sexual harassment or sexualised behaviour are not something you deal with. Who decided that?

Philip White

It is a policy set by the Health and Safety Executive’s board.

Chair

So it is a board-level decision, which is not driven by legislation. It is what the board has decided as being safety in their minds.

Philip White

There is a general policy that, as I said earlier, our legislation could be seen to be very far-reaching. A big example of that, where we had challenges in the past, was around patient and user safety, where the law was slightly unclear in that area—

Chair

So that was a decision of the board; it was not a decision of anybody else.

Philip White

The broad policy—HSE’s policy position—is that where there is other specific legislation that pertains to a particular area, it is appropriate for that legislation to be applied and for those regulators or authorities to take actions. The HSE board will not necessarily decide on each particular issue, because we are faced with so many issues where our legislation overlaps with other legislation, and indeed, for some areas, we have memorandums of understanding with other agencies and authorities. We work under the broad umbrella that where there is other legislation that is more applicable, which other agencies can enforce, they should take primacy in that area. We cannot be seen to pick that up. It was under that umbrella policy that that decision was made.

Jess Phillips

How many women are on your board?

Chair

Three out of 10—I just checked.

Philip White

One of the board members is also a commissioner of the EHRC, interestingly.

Jess Phillips

What information does Ofsted collect on the prevalence of sexual harassment among school staff?

Lorna Fitzjohn

We collect information on inspection. When we go into a school, we will have discussions with staff, pupils and parents on a range of topics, including how well they are treated at the school and what is happening in that environment. That is one way.

Jess Phillips

Is there any specific questioning about sexual harassment? As a parent, I have certainly never been asked.

Lorna Fitzjohn

No. Our framework refers to sexual harassment, and no, we probably would not launch in with a question on sexual harassment. However, if issues arose from any of those parties that pertained to that kind of concern, we would obviously follow that up, so it goes with that. We go into classes; we spend time at break time with pupils and staff. We are round about the school all the time looking at behaviour. That is the main activity we would carry out.

Jess Phillips

Do you collect specific information from staff about levels of sexual harassment within institutions?

Lorna Fitzjohn

If it came up, yes, we would.

Jess Phillips

If it came up. In what way might it come up? If you did a staff survey and somebody said, “Sexual harassment is rife at this school,” for example?

Lorna Fitzjohn

Yes. We carry out a staff survey, a pupil survey and a parent survey while we are there at the school, and we ask questions specifically about whether people are treated fairly. They can then reply in an open text box, and we would follow that through. That is anonymous—it doesn’t have to be, but it generally is—and it is voluntary.

Jess Phillips

How many times has it come up, say in the last year?

Lorna Fitzjohn

I probably could not give you a figure, but it rarely comes up. We are there to inspect the school, the quality of education and the safeguarding of the pupils, and that is generally what people see us as being there for. If it does come up, and I have certainly come across a couple of occasions where it has, we follow that through with the leaders and managers at the school as appropriate, and other agencies if need be, including the police.

Jess Phillips

Going back to the example you just gave, can you tell us about the circumstances in which inspectors look at a school’s policies and procedures on preventing sexual harassment?

Lorna Fitzjohn

Yes. It is not a tick-box approach; it is not a case of reading all the policies and ticking that you have seen them. What is really important to us about policies and procedures is the impact of them. One of the key ones in school is behaviour—behaviour of pupils, behaviour of staff and the general culture and ethos of the school. That is a policy we would particularly look at, and we would want to see the impact on the behaviour of all that are at that school. It is important that young people have good role models, learn and prepare for life in modern Britain, and have a curriculum that supports their future. We would look at sex and relationships education and personal development. There is a wide range of subjects. We also have a complaints procedure for complaints against schools.

Jess Phillips

Is that open to staff?

Lorna Fitzjohn

It is open to anyone. We have had staff complaints, and pupils. We have just over 11,000 of those complaints a year. They are followed up and categorised. If it was sexual harassment it would be categorised as safeguarding, and those are obviously looked at in detail. That informs us whether we need to go into that school sooner than we had planned, and we do.

Jess Phillips

So you would go in sooner than you had planned. Obviously, Ofsted has quite a big role in assessing the leadership of a particular school and leadership is a core part of what comes out in an Ofsted report. In the assessment of leadership, are there any specific criteria for assessing how well a leader leads their staff in this area?

Lorna Fitzjohn

There are. Obviously protected characteristics under the Equality Act are within that, so we look at that specifically. Following your last inquiry and the recommendation that was made to us, we changed our handbook and the way we inspect to specifically refer to this, so it is followed through on inspection. Leadership and management are key to a school, the culture, the ethos and the way they work, not only for the staff who work there, but for the pupils being educated there.

Jess Phillips

One in five teachers in the most recent NASUWT survey said that they had suffered sexual harassment from pupils, other staff or leaders. How many inspection reports in the last two years have noted problems with how schools prevent and respond to sexual harassment?

Lorna Fitzjohn

I am not aware of any reports that specifically note that. Certainly there will have been inspections that involved inspectors looking particularly at aspects of sexual harassment in relation to the leaders and managers at the school.

Jess Phillips

Do inspectors have any specific training in how to spot sexual harassment?

Lorna Fitzjohn

Yes, we do. We have online training for safeguarding, which we are all due to have completed by today. It is mandatory and it includes a section on sexual harassment. That is online, but more importantly, we also talk through case studies and examples and discuss our work in relation to a range of topics.

Chair

When was that introduced?

Lorna Fitzjohn

We have always had training on safeguarding. That has always been important. But since your last inquiry we have added additional training on sexual harassment in schools.

Vicky Ford

My questions are to Megan and the FCA. You have mentioned already the importance of regulation. Are there aspects of the FCA’s regulatory role that specifically or indirectly relate to how a firm that you cover tackles sexual harassment or becomes aware of sexual harassment?

Megan Butler

The short answer to that is yes. From our perspective, misconduct is misconduct, whether it is financial or non-financial. The key tool we deploy in this area is what we call the senior managers and certification regime. That is a regime that holds the senior leaders of financial institutions to account and holds them responsible for the delivery of proper outcomes through that business, with a particular focus on the cultural values and norms within that business. They are particularly held to account for determining whether their key staff are fit and proper to do their roles. When we look at fit and proper, that is not merely in the context of financial decision making; it is in a broader, cultural set of values. It encompasses the whole of that individual. We do not believe that a culture that tolerates sexual harassment and other forms of behavioural misconduct will encourage a “safe to speak up” environment, an environment where the best business decisions get taken and where the best risk decisions get taken. So we do not compartmentalise that away from a consideration of what makes an individual fit and proper, and we expect firms to take all of those aspects into account when they look at whether their key individuals are fit and proper to do their roles.

Vicky Ford

How long has that fit and proper test been in place?

Megan Butler

The senior managers regime has been in place for two years. The certification part, which is about all the individuals within the firm, has been in place a little over one year. We are in the very early stages of this development across the financial services industry. It is also fair to say that at the moment it is only rolled out across banks and some of the major investment banks. It is rolling out across the insurance industry later this year, and we expect to have the legislation made to allow us to roll out across the totality of financial services next year.

Vicky Ford

I think I should probably declare that I was part of the legislation in setting that up, so it is good to hear that that has happened.

Jess Phillips

On the issue of what is fit and proper, can you comment on whether you think it was fit and proper to attend the Presidents dinner?

Megan Butler

First up, I would say that I don’t think we were aware of any of the major firms that were in attendance at the Presidents dinner.

Jess Phillips

I am sure we can get a list.

Megan Butler

Secondly, depending on what the particular behaviour was, it could speak to fit and proper. Absolutely it could—there are a range of things that can and do, which we have focused on. For example, there has been a long-term focus, but in particular more recently, on the sort of environment, incentives and perks that get given to particular people in certain jobs within financial services. The behaviour at those things definitely speak to fit and proper. I would also that this is not just the regulator saying this. Most of the firms with whom I interact would agree with me that it absolutely speaks to fit and proper.

Jess Phillips

But will there be any fallout from it being unfit and improper?

Megan Butler

From the Presidents dinner?

Jess Phillips

From the Presidents Club, or where it was found that somebody was attending—we wouldn’t need to look too far to find one—other salubrious events being attended by people at the top of financial services.

Megan Butler

Yes indeed, there are implications. We see data and information relating to that. For example, on an annual basis we look at the remuneration approach within banks and we look to see how they incentivise and reward particular individuals. Particularly, we look at whether individuals have had their remuneration impacted because of behaviour of this sort. We see evidence that banks are reducing remuneration and in the most extreme cases, are dismissing people for this type of issue.

Vicky Ford

Does part of having the fit and proper regime include the firm establishing a whistleblowing procedure?

Megan Butler

That is not part of fit and proper; that is under a separate regime. We have express rules requiring firms to have a strong and effective whistleblowing regime in their institutions.

Vicky Ford

Does that whistleblowing regime include sexual harassment?

Megan Butler

Absolutely, it would. I do not think the particular words are in our rules, but it would.

Vicky Ford

Does part of doing that fit and proper test require a history of sexual harassment issues to be considered?

Megan Butler

Again, that is not expressed in the words of the rules, but the whole point of the fit and proper test is that it encompasses the totality of that individual and their behaviour in the broader context.

Vicky Ford

In that whistleblowing regime that you have set up, how many issues have you had to do with whistleblowing on sexual harassment in the last five years?

Megan Butler

We have had a number of whistleblowing complaints to us on sexual harassment. We have had nine or so in the last couple of years. It is a very small number. In the context of whistleblowing, we have had 1,500 or so in that same period. It is a very small proportion that gets through to us. That is as it should be, because the first place that an individual should feel that they should blow the whistle is in their own firm. That is why the whistleblowing regime is aimed at the institutions themselves. But if that fails, the individuals can come to us, and they do.

Vicky Ford

Nine came to the FCA, but do you have a view of how many are happening at firm level?

Megan Butler

We do not have the data on how many go through to individual firms. I think it is important to recognise that each firm has a very different culture. Each firm will have pockets of different sorts of problems. Different parts of the financial services industry, as such a broad church, will have different areas of issue and focus. We do not gather that data, but we expect firms to.

Vicky Ford

And when you go in and do your inspection of the firm, would you inspect that whistleblowing regime?

Megan Butler

We would certainly inspect the effectiveness of a whistleblowing regime, definitely.

Vicky Ford

Have you ever taken enforcement action if you have considered that that has not been effective?

Megan Butler

In terms of the whistleblowing regime, yes, we have taken enforcement action on whistleblowing issues. In terms of issues specifically of sexual harassment, no, we have not taken enforcement action in that area. It is fair to say that the connection between poor culture and poor outcomes in the context of financial services is not a link that regulators used to make. It is a relatively recent discipline.

Vicky Ford

Are you taking steps to encourage firms to have specific policies or take actions to prevent sexual harassment and to encourage staff reporting? Have you identified that as a specific area?

Megan Butler

We have identified, and we are talking extensively to firms about, the broad diversity and inclusion agenda, of which this is a key part. For example, last night I hosted about a dozen senior leaders from UK banks, expressly to talk about diversity and inclusion and how they can share what works and what does not work so well, and the challenges they face around that as leaders. It is very much part of the ongoing supervision dialogue that we have.

Vicky Ford

You have written publicly about your experiences with sexual harassment early on in your career. Now that you are the lead senior person responsible for conduct across the industry, do you feel personally this mission to help stamp it out and make sure that the industry is really focused on it?

Megan Butler

It is certainly a subject that speaks very personally to me. Having been in the industry for the best part of 30 years and a supervisor for the best part of 10, I see that there has been a change in the last couple of years. There are a range of factors that have brought that to the fore. Some of that is regulatory focus. Some of it is the #MeToo movement, which has been referred to here today. Things like shining the light on some very difficult statistics about things like the gender pay gap have been really helpful too, across financial services, in raising this issue much further up the agenda, which can only be to the broader good.

Tonia Antoniazzi

These questions are for Dr Hughes. How do you and the National Guardian’s Office support a speaking-up culture in the NHS?

Dr Hughes

Following the Mid Staffs inquiry, Sir Robert Francis recommended that every trust in England and every hospital in England should have a freedom to speak up guardian, with a national guardian to lead that network. That is my role. The guardians come from a wide range of professional backgrounds at different levels of the hierarchy and act as that real human contact that staff can get in touch with to speak up about anything that gets in the way of patient care. Over the last year, we have been collecting data. I was appointed 18 months ago, so I can talk to the first year of data we have collected. Over 6,700 cases have been raised through freedom to speak up guardians, of which maybe half were about bullying and harassment and about a third were about patient safety. What we have not done with that first year of data is drill down into it to understand within the bullying and harassment figures what types of bullying and harassment there are, but I certainly think the work of this Committee has really informed our thinking about how we could do that in the future. The guardian’s role is to be there to be not just reactive but also proactive—to look at the culture in the organisation, to triangulate data from other departments such as complaints and incidents, and to work in partnership with, for example, the staff side, the dignity at work advisers, the guardian of safe working hours for junior doctors and others who are there to have a sort of temperature check of the culture. The speaking-up culture appears to be correlated with the CQC rating, so in the outstanding trusts, managers support staff to speak up and the barriers are not there, whereas if you look at the inadequate trusts, the reverse is the case. We see this very much as part of that development of the leadership in creating the positive speaking-up culture.

Tonia Antoniazzi

To what extent has your work helped to encourage NHS employees to speak out about sexual harassment in the workplace?

Dr Hughes

It is not something that we had looked at particularly, but I wrote to the freedom to speak up guardians when I knew I was going to be coming here and a number of them replied to me. So I cannot really say that there is data, but just in terms of the themes, we find in any type of healthcare environment that there can be staff-on-staff, staff-on-patient, patient-on-staff and patient-on-patient harassment. With that last one, we have not really seen any themes of that emerging, but the CQC are looking at that in terms of sexual safety on wards and will be publishing later in the year. The themes that have come back from the 15 trusts who contacted me are they had had cases very much fitting into those themes of staff-on-staff, staff-on-patient being witnessed by a colleague, and also patient-on-staff.

Tonia Antoniazzi

What proportion of your cases have looked at trusts’ responses to reports of sexual harassment of employees, by either colleagues or third parties?

Dr Hughes

In terms of the numbers that came back just from that very brief pulse survey of guardians, it was about just under 30 cases, but other people have come to me. What we would say is that it is not something we have asked every trust to report on, but compared to the thousands of cases of bullying and harassment that have been raised through freedom to speak up guardians, it fits very much with what your other witnesses have said: these are really tiny numbers, which are very out of proportion to a lot of people’s experiences in their careers in the NHS—I would say including my own as a trainee and as a medical student, and even in senior roles as well.

Tonia Antoniazzi

Have you made any specific recommendations on actions that trusts should take to tackle and prevent third-party harassment?

Dr Hughes

It is something we are looking at in terms of how we can use data that we are getting from trusts to be able to inform good practice. At the moment, we have not made any recommendations. We have been undertaking case reviews where we look at cases of speaking up that have not been handled well, and none of those to date has raised issues about sexual harassment. We have seen other types of discrimination on protected characteristics and made recommendations on that. One thing that we recommended related to the CQC and its fit and proper review, so that bullying and victimisation of someone who had spoken up would be seen in the same light as other aspects of fit and proper such as fraud and theft. That is a watermark change for the NHS because, of the numbers of people that have spoken up to guardians, 5% have said that they have suffered detriment. I was going to say, after listening to the other witnesses earlier today, that the NHS Improvement freedom to speak up policy, which should be adopted by all trusts, has a specific line in it that says anyone who victimises someone who has spoken up will be taken through a disciplinary process. I have yet to find a trust that has told me they have done that. When you consider 5% of 6,500 people, we should be seeing hundreds of examples of that, and that is something that we will look at in a thematic way.

Tonia Antoniazzi

Who has the responsibility for ensuring that your recommendations are implemented?

Dr Hughes

The recommendations are implemented by the trusts under the regulators, NHS Improvement and the Care Quality Commission, so we would expect every trust to look at the recommendations that we have made, not just the trusts that we have reviewed. That would then form part of the well-led inspection by the CQC. We have regular meetings with the trusts to support their implementation of the recommendations, and that is jointly with NHS Improvement and the CQC. The recommendation we made for the CQC has been through its internal audit process.

Chair

I am so sorry, we are overrunning, so I am going to ask one last set of questions. Across the board, we have heard today about the huge disparity between reported levels of sexual harassment and the number of people coming forward. What could we do as a Committee to help you do more to resolve that problem and have more victims of sexual harassment come forward? What is it within your area that is stopping people coming forward? What could we do to help you manage that better?

Megan Butler

The key thing that we need is the broader implementation of the senior managers and certification regime, which means we need that legislation turned on for us across industry. That is the tool we use to push firms to get to the right place on these issues. That is what we need to do. We need to get firms creating the right environments. The more we can do in that area, the more light we can generally shine and the more we can keep this as part of the dialogue, keep this in the public domain, and keep talking about the issue.

Chair

When it comes to Ofsted and schools, what is a recommendation that we could make that would mean that more of those one in five teachers who report being sexually harassed come forward and are caught by the Ofsted regime, which is there to build trust?

Lorna Fitzjohn

I think it goes back to shining a light on it. We are not necessarily the people they should go to. There are other agencies they should go to. We have a very specific role as an inspectorate in relation to schools.

Chair

Who should they go to?

Lorna Fitzjohn

They should go to people within their own organisations. There should be a robust response led by the governors of that establishment so that there is a way in which they can take things forward. We will then have a look at the records of that. There are the unions, the police, and other parts of the charity sector that may well give them information.

Dr Hughes

I think the most important thing is about disbelief. At the moment people have disbelief that this is happening in their organisation. What was very interesting from your witnesses last week was that if you ask the men in the organisation whether it is happening, they do not believe that it is, but if you ask the women they know full well that it is. So there is something about getting that belief in an uncomfortable truth about one’s own organisation, because the insight has got to be the first step in recognising that something needs to be done.

Philip White

I think a mechanism is needed whereby people will feel they can trust where they go to to raise these issues and that they will be looked into.

Chair

But if our recommendation from the Committee was that there should be a duty on the Health and Safety Executive, would that not help?

Philip White

I do not think it would, because sexual harassment is not our area of expertise or locus. Interestingly, I think some of the recommendations on independent arrangements that the EHRC put forward in its report would probably help.

Chair

But dealing with aggression and violence is something you know about, so why wouldn’t you know about sexual harassment? Why shouldn’t you?

Philip White

I think sexual harassment comes in so many different guises, and there is a gradation of issues within that. Other agencies or bodies have a lot more expertise in dealing with these particular issues. We can certainly play our part in terms of signposting people on to the right place. Indeed, when we find issues, we signpost people on.

Chair

Where do you signpost them to?

Philip White

It could be to the police, to the EHRC, or to ACAS. We need to make sure that there is much more joined-upness in the system among regulators and authorities, to make sure that things get to the right place and are dealt with by the best-placed person.

Chair

But not preventing it, only dealing with the problem afterwards.

Philip White

No, prevention is absolutely key.

Chair

But none of the agencies you have just mentioned can prevent the problem from happening. The police cannot prevent it from happening. The EHRC cannot prevent it. You could, because you have duties to keep the environment safe at work. You could make this part of your agenda, if you chose to.

Philip White

The duty in health and safety legislation is fairly and squarely on the employer. It is not on HSE.

Chair

Yes, but you enforce safety at work before problems happen. You do not just come and mop up the blood afterwards.

Philip White

Some of our work is preventative, but about 50% of our work is, I’m afraid, about mopping up after the situation has happened.

Chair

But 50% is not.

Philip White

We have a lot of demands on our time in a number of different areas. We have to prioritise, particularly where there is death, serious injury and serious ill health.

Lorna Fitzjohn

Can I add something on the prevention side? I think we all have a duty to prepare our young people, and pupils who are being educated, in relation to personal development, life in modern Britain and sex relationship education. I think there are things that the Committee could do to really promote that part of the curriculum.

Chair

Brilliant. Thank you all very much for your time today. I am sorry we have overrun—I really apologise for that, but it was extremely helpful.