Oral evidence: Ofsted’s inspection of schools, HC 1029

Oral evidence, 25 June 2018.

Witnesses

Mary Bousted, Nick Brook and Matthew Shanks.

Chair

Good afternoon and welcome to the Public Accounts Committee on Monday 25 June 2018. We are here today to look at Ofsted’s inspection of schools, focusing in particular on some important work that the National Audit Office has done looking at how Ofsted works, how effective it is at monitoring schools’ effectiveness, and how it uses its information to effect better education. We are also keen to look at how it uses the data that it gathers, so there is an awful lot of stuff to get through. We are delighted to have a pre-panel on this, with some people who are very much representing those at the coalface of education. From my left to right we have Matthew Shanks, the executive principal of Education South West—how many schools are in Education South West, Mr Shanks?

Matthew Shanks

Ten.

Chair

Ten. Anne Marie Morris was right. We guessed it was 10, but we wanted to check. Then we have Dr Mary Bousted, who is the joint general secretary of the National Education Union, and Nick Brook, who is the deputy general secretary of the National Association of Head Teachers. Later, we will have witnesses from Ofsted and the Department, who are in fact in the room right now, so you have a chance for them to hear you directly. Thank you to those of you who have submitted evidence. You have submitted that, so you do not need to repeat all of it here in the room. We expect this part of the hearing to last about half an hour. Could I start by asking each of you to tell me very quickly what you think the best and worst thing is about Ofsted, from your perspective?

Matthew Shanks

There are a few best things about Ofsted. I think the training that has come in since it became centralised, the short inspections and the use of practitioners from the field as Ofsted inspectors are the best things about it. I think the worst thing is that there is still sometimes a feeling that there is an over-reliance on data prior to inspections taking place. I still think there is a level of inconsistency sometimes within some of the inspections. The other one is the public perception and some school leaders’ perceptions of Ofsted, which I think are not fair.

Mary Bousted

The best thing about Ofsted is its survey reports. Some of those have been extremely interesting and valuable.

Chair

Could you explain that a bit more?

Mary Bousted

They take a particular issue, look at the inspection evidence and then do more general conclusions, which are sometimes very helpful for the education system. I think the worst thing about Ofsted is that it is a key part of an accountability system that is driving teachers from the profession—52% of teachers leave within 10 years. The NAO says that Ofsted inspections cost £44 million, but we think the costs of Ofsted and the accountability system to the education system are huge, and hugely more than that.

Chair

You put a lot of detail in your evidence, so thank you for that.

Nick Brook

I think accountability systems should always be tested against their ability to improve. One of the best things about Ofsted has perhaps been the ability that it has had historically to improve its systems. If you go back to when it started, 26 years ago, Ofsted had an undeniable impact in transforming the education system in this country. Today, I think we see much less evidence that the inspectorate is having a positive impact overall. Schools have transformed in the last 26 years—90% of schools now are “good” or better, yet fundamentally the approach to inspection has not changed that much in that period. That is why NAHT decided that we would put together an accountability commission to review those issues. We will report in September, and I have circulated details on that to the Committee. Through that work, and having spoken to many headteachers over the past few months, I have heard much more positive than negative about the calibre of inspectors on inspection of late. There is absolutely inconsistency—that is undeniable—but not as much as we have seen in the past.

Chair

So that is a good thing?

Nick Brook

That is absolutely a good thing. Overall, I have heard it said more often than not that schools believe that they have had a reasonable judgment at the end of an inspection. That, however, is different from the question whether inspection is having an impact or not. I hear much less about inspection uncovering anything of worth that the schools did not actually know already. To finish off, I would say that the problem appears not to be about the calibre of inspectors, as far as headteachers see it, but a lot more to do with the rigorousness of the inspection process itself.

Chair

Thank you for those thoughts.

Layla Moran

Picking up on that point, Mr Brook, what could Ofsted do more—or differently—to help to drive school improvement?

Nick Brook

I think we should look at short inspection in the first instance: 65% of schools are now good, which means that the majority of schools in this country can expect to have a short inspection rather than the full inspection of old. This is a one-day inspection. One-day inspections simply do not seem to be long enough to be useful, yet they are now the norm. Ofsted has become reliant on the short inspection model to perform its duties. As I say, around 65% of schools are now good. But there is so much to get through in such a short period. Last week, I talked to one of our teachers who has recently trained as an Ofsted inspector and she described it as a near impossible task to get through the work that was needed within a one-day inspection. I think the picture I’m painting here is that we have good inspectors attempting to achieve the impossible in schools. How could we make it more worth while? We could look again at the nature of inspection.

Layla Moran

Thank you. Mr Shanks, you made the comment that one-day inspection is good. How does that square with what Mr Brook has said?

Matthew Shanks

My experience of one-day inspections is that there is an awful lot to get through, but it is more done with the school rather than to the school. Two-day inspections tend to be a team or one inspector coming in “doing to” the school, but on a short inspection, because it is only one day, the school is far more involved, so you are able to look more deeply into their school improvement planning and their strategic knowledge of what is working and what is not working within the school. In terms of being a force for improvement, I always feel that, having done inspections or being inspected, it would be good to have time after that to tap into some of the expertise that the inspectors have. They come in and they inspect. Sometimes, as Nick says, they agree with what the school is saying, but they have experience, expertise, knowledge and wisdom from being in schools in other areas, and that is not always able to be passed on because of the nature of the report writing and because it is only one day, so a model that is a one-day inspection and then a visit later on to provide some support would be more effective.

Mary Bousted

I must disagree. It is not the view of our members that the standard of inspections is improving. Ofsted said to the NAO that short inspections are largely about compliance, and that is certainly the view of our leadership members. I got a long email yesterday from someone who went through a short inspection: “The inspection was frantic, inefficient and superficial, entirely inadequate and definitely requires improvement.” This was in a special school with children being urged very quickly to give preordained answers to tick-box questions. The Report itself says that inspectors are finding the workload too high and Ofsted itself says that its short inspections are about compliance. The idea that you know you are going to get a fair, valid and reliable inspection when an inspection team comes through your school door is not the view of my members.

Chair

A lot more of your members are now inspectors because more practitioners are becoming Ofsted inspectors.

Mary Bousted

Some of them will be inspectors. It is largely the leadership group members that are inspectors. We have more teachers in membership than leadership. I don’t know how many more of them are inspectors.

Layla Moran

What is the view of your members in challenging the assertions that Ofsted makes? Do they feel that the complaints procedure could result in changes of grade, for example?

Mary Bousted

Most of the leaders would not bother challenging an inspection. In fact, Ofsted lost a case at the High Court. When Ofsted places schools in special measures, it has no appeals process. Ofsted argued that it was so careful about placing schools in special measures that it did not need an independent appeals process. The judge found against them and said it is simply against natural justice not to have an independent appeal, particularly when a school is placed in special measures. That has been appealed. We do not think Ofsted’s current position, with the High Court saying it has to have an independent appeals process if a school is put in special measures and then Ofsted not changing that and going to an appeal court, is valid.

Layla Moran

Isn’t it also true that last year there was not a single change?

Mary Bousted

Yes.

Layla Moran

There was no change, so my question to you is, if it then went to an independent panel that found that the judgment was sound, what is wrong with that? Does that not say that Ofsted is doing a good job?

Mary Bousted

But it doesn’t go to an independent panel.

Layla Moran

The complaints procedure is independent.

Mary Bousted

It is not independent of Ofsted.

Layla Moran

Okay. It’s different people. It’s arm’s length.

Mary Bousted

Yes, but it’s not independent of Ofsted.

Layla Moran

But it is working within the framework.

Chair

It is the equivalent of a governing body doing an appeal, so that would be seen as independent. That is what parents are offered if there is an exclusion.

Mary Bousted

We do not regard that as independent. In any inspection agency worth its salt, if there was a complaint against a judgment, it would be sent to a different body—particularly when a school is put in special measures, which is such a—

Chair

Governing bodies do appeals for school decisions as an independent governing body.

Mary Bousted

Yes, but governing bodies do not quite have the influence and the effect that Ofsted has, if you place the school in RI or in special measures.

Chair

I am just saying that there is a potential corollary there.

Layla Moran

Indeed. Perhaps we can pick that up later. Mr Brook, can I ask you the same question?

Nick Brook

I was talking to a headteacher last week who is a MAT CEO. In the last year, she has experienced six inspections, so I think she was in a particularly good position to talk about reliability and consistency across those. One thing that came out from the conversation was an issue she had with one of her school inspections. She said, “The complaints procedure is still very difficult and stressful, with no external moderation. We should not have to have had to revert to a costly letter from our legal team to bring about a satisfactory response from Ofsted. It was not until our education lawyer wrote a letter to Ofsted, which cost £700, that they took the complaint seriously and took appropriate action.” On the very small sample of one headteacher that I spoke to, it is quite clear that it is not without issue. One of the reasons we do not see many changes through the complaints system is that a lot of the complaints are to do with the conduct of inspectors, and that can be very much, “you say, they said,” and therefore the outcome of that will be one where the judgment stands. Overall, when you look at Ofsted’s statistics, they show high levels of satisfaction with inspections themselves, but very low satisfaction where people have gone through the complaints procedure. I think that is reported in the NAO Report as well.

Layla Moran

Thank you. I will move on to a related issue: the number of schools that are outstanding and therefore exempt from inspection from a very long time. Mr Shanks, are there any of your schools that have not been inspected in, say, the last five years? Which ones and how many?

Matthew Shanks

Yes. Two of the 10, one primary and one secondary, are both outstanding schools. I would like them to be inspected, and their heads would like them to be inspected as well.

Layla Moran

Why would you like them to be inspected?

Matthew Shanks

Because you want to test yourself, and you also do not want to allow complacency to slip in. There is also an unfairness to a system whereby some schools have achieved outstanding gradings in the past, when examination regimes were different and opportunities to pick up particular qualifications—without going down that line—were there. Those schools should be looked at, rather than just on a data exercise.

Layla Moran

Is it not the job of the multi-academy trust to ensure that standards are high?

Matthew Shanks

Yes, absolutely.

Layla Moran

Currently, MATs are not inspected, although I understand that is an argument to be had. Would you agree with that assertion?

Matthew Shanks

Our MAT is actually undergoing a pilot inspection this week. They are preparing today, while I am here—so there is a level of confidence in there. Yes, of course we can inspect them, look after them, work with them and build them up, but there is nothing like that external verification, and I think that external verification is key. There are some outstanding schools out there that people do not think are outstanding any more, and they should be inspected. There are also outstanding schools that maybe are brushed in the same way because they are not seen as outstanding because others are not, and if they were inspected in the same way there should not be any fear or favour in inspection or in having schools inspected, because this is the regime we have.

Layla Moran

Do you agree with that, Dr Bousted?

Mary Bousted

About the length between inspections?

Layla Moran

Do you agree that all schools should be inspected evenly and everyone should have the same number of years between inspections?

Mary Bousted

I think all schools should go through a quality assurance process. That should not be something that happens on a snapshot basis; it should be something that is intrinsic to the schools. The present Ofsted model is defunct. It does not give the quality assurance that parents want and need, and it does not give the quality assurance that the country needs for the money it spends on education. Other countries are finding much more intelligent ways to quality assure and to assess the quality of education that children and young people get. The most devastating conclusion in this NAO Report is that Ofsted cannot prove that it raises standards of education or the quality of children’s and young people’s lives. That is an absolutely coruscating statement about an inspection agency.

Chair

It is very interesting to read.

Gareth Snell

I am sorry to interrupt. Very quickly, Mr Shanks, there is an anomaly or discrepancy in what you said. You said in your opening statement that one thing you thought was bad about Ofsted was its general level of inconsistency in inspections, but now you are saying that your schools would welcome an inspection because they believe themselves to be outstanding. Is it not therefore the case that schools that think they are doing very well want an inspection, because they expect to be told that they are doing well, and that schools that come out of an inspection without an outstanding rating fall back on saying that the inspections are inconsistent and that the rating is not their fault?

Matthew Shanks

Yes, I’m sure. I did not actually say my schools want to be inspected because they think they are outstanding. I said they wanted to test themselves, which is slightly different. There are still inconsistencies within Ofsted. That does not mean that there should not be inspections. I agree with Dr Bousted’s saying that the regime can improve, in terms of the timings between inspections and the type of inspections taking place. However, one thing I pointed out was that the best continuing professional development—CPD—I have had in 26 years of education is the new Ofsted CPD and training. The development we have seen in that, in terms of being research based, should make the inspections better. Going back to Ms Moran’s point about the quality of inspections and the timing between them, it is absolutely essential that everybody, including the school, is involved in that process, and that it is not a “top down, done to” regime.

Gareth Snell

But overall, would you have faith in the inspection process within the schools in your MAT to give a fair and accurate reflection of what is happening in your schools?

Matthew Shanks

Within the south-west, absolutely. I have complained to Ofsted in the past and not had my complaint upheld, which I can understand, because of the specification within the criteria in Ofsted. That is where changes have been made since then and continue to be made. It is not just about data or historical data; it is about the whole system and being a force for improvement.

Anne Marie Morris

Mr Shanks, you said, as did Mr Brook, that there is inconsistency. If we take the perspective of the parent, they often make decisions based on the Ofsted grades. They don’t look behind them or at the whys and the wherefores. If there is this inconsistency, is Ofsted actually giving fair and balanced information to parents on which to make a balanced judgment?

Matthew Shanks

I don’t know the answer to that. The only thing I can say is that parents do base their decisions on schools an awful lot on Ofsted judgments. I think that Ofsted is moving towards making it a fairer and more efficient system from that point of view. I feel like I am defending Ofsted here, but having worked with them I have seen those changes. Interestingly, on parents, I don’t think they have a big enough say in what happens within inspections. I deal with parents on an almost daily basis who would like their children to have energy drinks, for example, and who could therefore rail against and make complaints against the school. However, there could be a system whereby schools have to engage with parents more regularly and then feed that into the Ofsted report. Schools often don’t get to hear what the parents say about them during Ofsted inspections, apart from at arm’s length. I think schools should have the right to be able to answer, and to support or to defend, if necessary, those comments that are made from parents.

Nick Brook

I agree with the suggestion that parents would expect a school that has been judged as good to be a good school, and one that has been judged as outstanding to be outstanding. To bring it back to the previous question, I think many parents will be very surprised to know that 296 schools judged as outstanding had not been inspected for 11 years. If we are looking at confidence within the system, we need to take that point about outstanding exemption into account. Can we have confidence that one “good” is as good as another? At this stage I do not think we can. One area of focus within the accountability commission is whether inspection is equally fair to schools that serve children in all different types of circumstances and contexts. Mary will provide more evidence on that as she circulates that around, I am sure. It is certainly an issue that many school leaders, and teachers for that matter, are put off teaching in areas of challenge, simply because they don’t believe that the inspection system would treat them fairly. That is an issue of perception that we absolutely need to challenge. Work from the Education Policy Institute and others suggests that there may well be something in that.

Chair

You clearly get this from surveys of staff. We have looked a lot at teacher recruitment, training and retention, and there are a raft of different issues behind why morale can be low and teachers are leaving the profession. On a scale from one to 10, where do Ofsted rankings fit for both of you? I will take Mr Brook and then Dr Bousted, unless you have done joint research?

Nick Brook

We could both say a number at exactly the same time and see if it is the same one. On a scale of one to 10, fear of the accountability system seems to be a very high concern. I would take that in the round. We are talking about not just Ofsted here, but the interplay with performance tables and the fear that if I have poor results at the end of one year, it could be career-ending for myself. For school leaders, that really is quite significant.

Chair

For school leaders it can also be quite a challenge. If you go into a school rated outstanding by Ofsted, there is nowhere to take it, so it can be quite difficult to recruit to those schools.

Nick Brook

Exactly. I hear more headteachers of outstanding schools who would like to see the end of exemption than those who would like to keep it. I echo what Matthew said, that they perceive unequal treatment, precisely because they are no longer inspected. They say that it puts them at a disadvantage when showing parents around, because they have no recent inspection report to show and parents are unable to really judge one school against another. We are in this odd situation where exemption has gone from being celebrated by many outstanding headteachers to being a cause for concern.

Matthew Shanks

Especially if you are a new headteacher, who has been head of a school for three or four years, and you were not there when the school got its outstanding rating, staff begin to question a little bit, and that can create unease.

Chair

Dr Bousted, on a scale of one to 10, where are you?

Mary Bousted

When Nicky Morgan did her workload challenge, accountability was one of the key things teachers were saying was a key driver in overwork, and the excessive work and stress for teachers.

Chair

Is that collecting data, or—

Mary Bousted

My members tell me of the ever-present fear of several things: performance league tables, the plethora of accountability measures, which the DFE has imposed and which they are now clearing up a bit, and actions on behalf of school leaders who fear for their jobs. What happens, therefore, is that work is passed down to teachers, which is not about the quality of teaching and learning, but about proving the quality of teaching and learning. That is where you get the five-page lesson plans, the dialogic marking in three pens and sweating the data—an increasing issue—as though having a meeting about data to show progression means that those children show progression. It is almost as if having the meeting is as important as the progression. In the UK, the hours our teachers spend in the classroom is about the OECD average. Where we double the OECD average is in time spent out of the classroom preparing for teaching. Much of that is not preparation that is really about thinking through the age range or the subject, but writing incredibly detailed metrics, lesson plans, marking schemes and data progression in order to demonstrate that you are doing what it says on the tin—that is, going in and teaching effectively.

Layla Moran

What do you think of the myth-busting exercise that Ofsted has done?

Mary Bousted

I think the myth-busting exercise is a valiant attempt, but the problem with it is that no one really believes in it. There are two problems. First, it does not get down to a lot of teachers. Secondly, when Ofsted says, “We don’t want very detailed lesson plans,” well, you did. In ATL we ran a course about five years ago called “Demonstrating progress in 20 minutes”. Teachers were knocking down the doors, because that was part of the framework. When the Ofsted inspector comes in for 20 minutes—

Layla Moran

But that was five years ago, and this is coming since then.

Mary Bousted

But they still carry through. I went to a meeting last week. It was made clear that we don’t need dialogic marking. It was in Gloucestershire, there were about 40 teachers in the room. I said, “Put your hands up if you are primary teachers.” About half of them put their hand up. I then said, “Keep your hand up if you still have dialogic marking,” and 15 out of the 20 kept their hand up. The difficulty with the myth-buster document is twofold. First, it is difficult to get information into schools, because they are snowed under with information. Ofsted really have tried to myth-bust the documents. Secondly, there is a credibility gap, because people still see in an Ofsted report from two or three years ago that this is what is required and now we are saying that we don’t need it. People don’t just forget what was there before.

Layla Moran

Mr Brook, isn’t that what leadership should be doing in a school to ensure that these critical changes are filtered down?

Nick Brook

I echo the point that there have been valiant attempts by Ofsted to get the message through about what is and is not required at inspection. I do think it is a slightly different question though. The point in school leaders’ minds is more akin to entering a court of law without a defence to say, “Take us as you find us,” knowing full well that Ofsted will come with access to the performance data that it is relevant to that school. There will always be a demand on the school, particularly if their data is looking anything other than wholly convincing, to build a compelling argument and a compelling case as to why they are good or outstanding when the data evidence may be borderline. That is what is driving the behaviours in the system—the recognition of the consequences of a poor inspection and the need to—

Chair

I will bring Anne Marie Morris back in, but I want to challenge that point on data. I have been a school governor myself, and it is very helpful to see that data from a higher level, so you can see if a cohort of pupils or a cohort in a particular subject area is not doing so well. For example, you can see very quickly with GCSE results if the maths cohort is dropping down a level, and then you can quickly see where to drive improvement. Surely that data has a role in the day-to-day management of a school, regardless of what Ofsted then do with it.

Mary Bousted

Data absolutely does, but the problem is that those schools are drowning in data and much of it is spurious. So you get—

Chair

So you think that, really, Ofsted should be listening to practitioners about the data you need for the day-to-day stuff, and shaping their requirements around what is useful to the school.

Mary Bousted

Yes. We need data that is rigorous, valid and reliable and that gives consistent information. In many schools, there is a manufacturing of data to meet the perceived needs of a leadership team who are desperate. That is particularly the case in schools with deprived and challenging intakes, where it is more difficult to demonstrate progress, so you get a proliferation of data. My members complain—two or three years ago, the complaints used to be about assessment; two years prior to that, it was about planning. Now when the complaints come through, they are about the proliferation of data, much of it spurious.

Anne Marie Morris

Mr Shanks, as I understand it, the way Ofsted works is that it tries to take an objective view of a school and it will not look behind the grade, if you like, to the cause of any particular issue being below standard—things such as underfunding, which we are very familiar with in the west country. If an inspector is not taking account of that, and the reason that you are delivering something that is not quite outstanding is that you do not have the money to pay for the teachers, how on earth does that get fed back to Ofsted, if they are all silo reports? Similarly, there are a number of issues with mental health, which have grown exponentially over the last 10 years. The challenge is that that needs to be dealt with by Ofsted, and they need to feed back to the Government that there is a real issue here, which they ought to be reporting on from first-hand knowledge. Am I right in thinking that that is an important missing piece? Are you aware of any way in which Ofsted try to pull all the schools’ results together and look at issues such as that, which are the causes, and feed them back to the Department for Education?

Matthew Shanks

With the caveat that you do not ever want to make excuses for poorly performing schools in deprived areas—it ties in with what we have been saying about data—there is a set of standardised data on which schools are judged. It used to be very much about attainment; it is now far more based on progress, but there are still ways that progress figures and data can be manipulated. For example, schools that are outstanding sometimes withdraw children if they know that they will not achieve, so they get a higher performance 8 score, whereas schools that are not in that position, which might have Ofsted coming in and might be questioned about how many children started the course and finished it, are not in a position to do that. That is one reason to go back to outstanding schools being inspected. Those kinds of things are still happening. We have heard about the game- playing that Ofsted is trying to cut down on in curriculum choices and particular courses that are being offered by leaders for teachers to deliver in the classroom. There is also the focus on using the data in a specific way. I absolutely agree with Dr Bousted’s point that, sometimes, schools are working on conversations about the data rather than about the teaching and what is happening in the classroom. Because of the set criteria on which Ofsted inspect, there is no line about mental health. PDBW—personal development, behaviour and welfare—is there as a strand, but it is not seen to be as high a strand as outcomes. Therefore, you could have a school that does amazing things around mental health, personal welfare and support, and it might be outstanding in that, but if its outcomes are not as such, the school will still be an RI or a serious weaknesses or a good school, so it does not gain in that way. In terms of funding, it is really difficult—sitting as a school leader—because you do not want to wash your dirty linen in public and talk to Ofsted about all the difficulties you are facing and show all the areas. In the same way, you do not want parents to know that, if you are trying to recruit into an area where it is difficult to recruit, or teachers to know that, if you are trying to recruit into an area where it is difficult to retain teachers. You certainly would not want that to appear in the report. I do not know what the answer would be to that. One of the things in the MAT inspection pilot looks at that across multi-academy trusts to see how working together can produce greater financial efficiencies. I think the funding question and conversation needs to carry on, because as you know, I still think schools are underfunded. How could that be built in? Maybe, in the new specification coming out in September ’19, equal weighting could be given to the four areas, at least within PDBW, outcomes and so on, because at the moment, we are all slaves to trying to drive a particular data train, and progress of children is key.

Anne Marie Morris

Do you have any very brief comments, Mr Brook?

Nick Brook

Yes, and I’ll be very brief. You talked about some unethical behaviours that are going on in schools—off-rolling and so on. One thing we should bear in mind is that, yes, we expect much of school leaders and we want them to behave ethically, but surely the system should be set up in such a way that doing the right thing is the easy thing to do. Where you require bravery or heroic leadership to do the right thing, something is clearly not right. I will just emphasise also the point that data management has got somewhat out of control in schools. Tracking progress is not the same as improving learning, and I think we all have a responsibility to get a balance—

Chair

You need to track progress to see whether you are improving learning.

Nick Brook

Yes, but attempts to predict outcomes five years ahead and look at various flight paths and various other strange things that are going on in schools now just don’t seem to have a place in education in the future, in the NAHT’s opinion. To pick up on the final point that was being made—I am trying to read my handwriting. Actually, it is an absolute mess, so I won’t even attempt it, because you did ask me to be brief, and it would take hours for me to decipher what I’ve scribbled on this page.

Chair

If you agree with each other, you can always say you agree, because we are trying to bring this section to a close, as we have lots to get through with the other witnesses.

Anne Marie Morris

One of the real challenges that Ofsted has is a lack of inspectors. Given what you say about Ofsted and how that puts teachers off coming into the profession or staying in it, how on earth is Ofsted going to attract more headteachers and deputies to be inspectors?

Chair

Shall we start with Dr Bousted? She had a momentary break there.

Mary Bousted

I think that, with the current pressure schools are under, that’s a real ask, because although I’m sure you get very good CPD if you are an inspector—because it gives you the opportunity to go and visit lots of other schools—the more challenging the circumstances you are in, the more difficult it is to leave your school. I just want to finish with this. I know I have put it in the evidence, but I want to say it. The evidence is clear that Ofsted does not give judgments to schools in challenging areas that they deserve—that the judgments for schools in disadvantaged areas are disproportionately negative, disproportionately lower. The EPI—Education Policy Institute—did a report two years ago and said that has a real effect.

Chair

We could get into the debate about this, but I represent an area that is incredibly challenged, and we have some of the best schools in the country, which get outstanding ratings, so there is also an element of what is actually happening in the school. We are not a policy Committee. Isn’t Ofsted set up a particular way to look at certain things? These are matters of policy that we are not here to challenge on this Committee.

Mary Bousted

No, but there are, particularly in London, schools that have a highly multicultural intake and have a rich cultural area, so there are issues about that. You said, “Is the issue just funding, for schools that are very poorly funded? Can Ofsted get to the grain of that?” There are other issues that impact greatly on the judgment a school gets and which, in my view, Ofsted misreads.

Chair

Ms Morris, do you want to ask that question of anyone else?

Anne Marie Morris

No, I think that, given the time, we should move on.

Chair

Sorry, it seems like we’ve been going at quite a pace, but we have had some good evidence in as well, so let me thank you very much for coming, particularly Mr Shanks, who travelled up from Devon for this afternoon’s session, at quite short notice. Thank you very much indeed. The transcript of this section of the hearing and, indeed, the next section will be up on the website uncorrected in the next couple of days, so please have a look, although our colleagues at Hansard are excellent, so it’s usually very good. You are very welcome to stay for the next panel if you wish. We will now switch over to the permanent secretary, the chief inspector and colleagues. Examination of witnesses

Witnesses

Matthew Coffey, Julia Kinniburgh, Jonathan Slater and Amanda Spielman.

Chair

Welcome back to the Public Accounts Committee on 25 June 2018. We just heard some interesting evidence from people who are at the coalface of our education system, in schools in England. I will introduce the second panel, and I have alerted Mr Slater that we have some particular questions for him. On our panel this afternoon is Matthew Coffey, the Ofsted chief operations officer. How many years have you been there, Mr Coffey?

Matthew Coffey

Four and a half years in that role, but I have been at Ofsted since 2007.

Chair

I thought it was some time. Amanda Spielman is Her Majesty’s chief inspector. I think this is your second time at the Committee, so welcome back. You have been in post about 18 months, I believe. Jonathan Slater is the permanent secretary at the Department for Education, who in this Committee needs no introduction. Julia Kinniburgh is the director of accountability, curriculum and qualifications at the Department for Education—just a small workload for you there. I think this is your first time in front of us, so a very warm welcome. Before we kick off on the main subject of Ofsted, Sir Geoffrey has a question.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Mr Slater, can I ask about your ministerial direction on T-levels? Why did you think it was necessary to give that direction?

Jonathan Slater

It is a big change programme with a complex set of reforms. Any such big change programme will involve a plan with a series of challenging component parts. The timetable that we have been set for implementing that challenging plan works fine so long as each element of the plan goes ahead without any hiccups. Faced with that sort of choice, you can either decide to stick with that plan, put your shoulder to the wheel and do your very best to make sure that everything goes in accordance with the plan and that there are no hiccups, or you can buy yourself some more time, in case something goes wrong, in which case you have built the contingency into it. Those are the two choices, and my advice was to buy yourself some more time, to allow for the possibility that it would not all go according to plan. But it is completely legitimate for the Secretary of State to say, “I hear what you are saying, permanent secretary, but I want to stick with that plan and make sure we do everything we possibly can to achieve it.” The way that managing public money works in such a scenario is I put my advice in writing and he puts his decision in writing, and we give him a copy and he gives you a copy. That is the answer, basically.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

So the Secretary of State, Damian Hinds, decided that you should stick with your original timetable and begin in 2020. Can I briefly explore with you how that will work? The first courses will start in September this year.

Jonathan Slater

No, September 2020.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

September 2020. What impact does that have on the timetable?

Jonathan Slater

If everything goes smoothly—it may well do, and it is my job to do my very best to make sure that it does—we will hit that timetable. A number of things need to be done to hit that timetable. To take an example, we have to pin down the specification for the three T-levels. We have to work out and agree with employers, with their agreement, what is the digital T-Level curriculum. We have to select an awarding organisation, such as Pearson or City & Guilds—those sorts of people—to sit over that and to set the examination. We have to choose one of those, and then it has to set an examination. We have to get a process in place with sufficient employers around the country to provide three-month work placements for people on that T-level. We have to get FE colleges resourced and teachers trained to teach those T-levels. We have to get students ready, willing, waiting and wanting to apply to do those T-levels. We have between now and 2020 to get each of those elements in place. We have a plan that gets us there, and if we hit each of the milestones on the plan, it will be fine.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Sorry, my question was imprecise. These courses will start to be taught in September this year in readiness for 2020.

Jonathan Slater

Actually, no. You will be surprised at how much work is required before you can even start. In September 2020, the first students will start their two-year T-level courses.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Okay. Another problem was finding enough industry placements for 45 days. How is that shaping up?

Jonathan Slater

Good work is being done. We are piloting the work placements principle right now around the country. We have got many work placements in place so that we can test what is working and what we need to adjust before we go live with the system in September 2020. In some areas it is a lot easier than others. We are increasingly funding further education colleges themselves to work with employers in their localities to reach agreement with local employers to provide that piece of the jigsaw. We are at the piloting stage, funding FE colleges with two years to get it ready.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Okay, finally, because this hearing is not about T-levels—

Chair

Perhaps Ms Kinniburgh can answer.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Yes. Perhaps you would like to answer this, Ms Kinniburgh. It is clearly taking up quite a lot of resources in your Department and in your area of responsibility. Is there anything that will need to be deprioritised to make this whole thing work?

Julia Kinniburgh

It is not actually my area of responsibility. We have a separate director who is responsible for T-levels, and she is dedicated solely to that.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Okay, Mr Slater.

Jonathan Slater

We have stood up a team with a director who is full time in charge of this programme. They have been so for the past year. We are lucky enough to benefit from additional resources from the Treasury for this priority, given its salience and significance for the Government. I have not had to fund this programme within the baseline of the Department. That is not to say we do not need to prioritise, but they have given me extra money for this one.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Thank you.

Chair

I want to pick up on the issue of academy heads’ pay. You wrote to academies asking them to explain salaries over £150,000. I think you have written to them again since then, or the ESFA has. Can you give us an update on what information you have got back and what you are doing about it?

Jonathan Slater

Sure. We started off, as you will recall, with a letter to the chief executives of those single-academy trusts paying somebody £150,000 or more, asking them to justify that. We then followed that up with a letter to multi-academy trusts in the same situation. According to our records, there were 117 single and multi-academy trusts that were paying someone more than £150,000. That has come down by 18 so far, as a consequence of that engagement between us and them.

Chair

They are just not paying people as much money?

Jonathan Slater

Yes. I would expect more of the same to follow. I am happy to keep the Committee updated as data develops. In other words, I do not think 18 is going to be the limit of the change. We are now turning our attention to trusts that are paying someone between £100,000 and £150,000. We have only just started that process, so it is too early for me to update you on the numbers. I would be surprised if any hearing of this Committee takes place where you do not ask me for an update on those numbers.

Chair

So just come prepared every time—just like “Blue Peter”.

Jonathan Slater

That is why I had the figures off the top of my head, even though the hearing is on something else. Obviously it is important that we get this thing right, and I will tell you—

Chair

There is a lot to probe there, but we will not have time today to wonder why 18 suddenly are not paying as much. I have to say that this Committee is not of the view that everyone should be paid less than a certain amount; it is that they have to justify it.

Jonathan Slater

Absolutely. That is why it is not 117, but 99.

Chair

Okay. The other issue that you have talked to us about before is the asbestos management assurance process. I think you have now extended the deadline for information from schools to today from an original earlier deadline. Is that because you are not getting the information in on asbestos?

Jonathan Slater

I am sorry, but I am not up to speed with the reason for the timing. I have updated the Committee in the past on how important it is that we get assurance that those local agencies, whether they are trusts or local authorities, have got proper asbestos plans in place. That is the process we have been going through. I am obviously happy to update you in more detail as we—

Chair

Obviously the deadline is today, so we would like a response in the next couple of weeks about what that has brought in. We have raised the issue a number of times in this Committee. It is a ticking time bomb. Schools that were okay when you and I were at school are perhaps no longer safe. It is also a challenge for those governing bodies, is it not? They have to come up with a plan that is not funded to sort that problem out. If they do not get the money from the bidding process for that work, they have got the problem of an asbestos plan and no money to deliver it. Are there any plans for central Government—the Department, or indeed the Treasury—to fund the asbestos plans?

Jonathan Slater

That is precisely why we did the condition survey work a few years ago, and why we have been supplementing it with more information about specific subjects. In particular, there is this focus on asbestos. We obviously expect that to play into engagement between us, trusts and local authorities on condition improvement in the future.

Layla Moran

Carrying on from that, to your knowledge what proportion of local authorities have submitted their plans?

Jonathan Slater

I’m sorry, I don’t have that information off the top of my head.

Layla Moran

The reason why I ask is that, in one school in Oxford, the only reason why the asbestos was discovered was that a pupil punched through the wall. That caused them to bring someone in, and that is when they found the asbestos. That was quite recent. I am curious to know whether you think there is a problem out there, because I suspect there might be.

Jonathan Slater

It is crucial that agencies at a local level, be they local authorities or trusts, take seriously their health and safety responsibilities in general, and particularly those relating to asbestos. They must be on top of it. We have issued guidance so they know what they have to do. We are asking about the extent to which they can assure us they have done it. I’ll update you on the deadline when I get the results of that.

Chair

Our concern is that the guidance is all very well, but what happens if they do it, find a problem and there is no money to fund it?

Jonathan Slater

If that were the case, sure, but we have an annual bidding round, and our guidance on asbestos is not new.

Chair

We will continue to pursue this with you in writing. We see you often, Mr Slater.

Jonathan Slater

In circumstances with experts around us, we will discuss the benefits and disbenefits of removing asbestos from a building in situ. As you know, it is not always best to remove the asbestos.

Chair

It is not always the same for everything. It is a growing issue, and we have raised it as a Committee a number of times.

Jonathan Slater

It is very important for us, too.

Chair

We will correspond with you and pick it up at a later date. Sadly, it is not something that is going to be resolved overnight. It would be great if it was, but unfortunately we don’t deal with instant results in this Committee. We now turn to Ms Spielman, the chief inspector. I want to ask you a couple of questions before we get into the main body of the Report. On what basis did you assure Parliament in your annual report of 2016-17 that you had met your statutory target to re-inspect schools within five years, given what you then found out?

Amanda Spielman

There was a control weakness, for which I have to apologise. The previous reports will be corrected in the report we will lay with you in two or three weeks. There were a handful of inspections that were not completed within the statutory timelines, and an explicit decision was taken at the time—it wasn’t a matter of oversight—that there was a good reason to defer the inspection in those cases. That wasn’t communicated properly through the certificates of assurance, so I was unaware of it at the time I signed off the annual report. I can only apologise and say that that will be corrected.

Chair

What have you done to make sure that doesn’t happen again? That is misleading Parliament, which is a serious matter.

Amanda Spielman

Indeed. We have put procedures in place to ensure any decision to defer an inspection past a statutory deadline has to be reported either to Matthew Coffey—my COO—or directly to me. No sign-off can be made without that.

Chair

So that will be amended.

Amanda Spielman

We will be including the amended details in the annual report for 2017-18.

Chair

Can you tell us any reasons why the 43 schools were not inspected?

Amanda Spielman

Just over 30 schools—I think it is 32—came about because of a minor technical policy change by DFE in the numbering of schools, relating to school mergers. That had the side effect—for whatever reason, nobody properly thought about and discussed it—that those schools were set up to be treated as continuing schools, whereas the DFE policy previously had always been that merged schools should be treated as new schools and given until the third year to be inspected. We set them up as new schools on our system, instead of setting them up as continuing schools, which would have brought them into inspection slightly earlier. The other 11 were all exceptional cases, mostly relating to schools that were expected to close. Our information was that they were closing, and therefore the requirement to inspect did not apply. There were special provisions. For one or two, there were some other exceptions. For example, the head of a very small infant school was suddenly diagnosed with very late-stage terminal cancer, and there were one or two other unfortunate cases. In every case, it was known—there are records on our system—that it was considered an explicit decision. So I am satisfied that there is no deeper control weakness about schools simply slipping under the radar.

Chair

You would expect me, perhaps, to observe that if this happened in a school you were inspecting you would be pretty hard on them. Have you had disciplinary action inside Ofsted as a result of this?

Amanda Spielman

No, we haven’t.

Layla Moran

Moving on to your speech in the last week, you started by saying that it was not going to be controversial and then you made some interesting points. My first question is what evidence do you have that doing lines actually improves behaviour?

Amanda Spielman

I didn’t suggest that it did, but what we have seen over the last few years is that a number of schools have taken steps to put in place quite strong behaviour policies to address what they see as the needs of their school and have often come under a great deal of fire. The point I wanted to convey was that if those schools put in place policies that are effective, coherently implemented and beneficial for children in those schools, the head’s right to make decisions about policy should be supported, not undermined.

Layla Moran

So this is about supporting the heads in their decisions, rather than a personal view?

Amanda Spielman

Indeed.

Layla Moran

Mr Slater, would you be happy sending your child to a school that made them do lines as part of their discipline process? Is there not a point where it is the DFE’s job to say what is and is not good in a school? I would argue that there is not much evidence that doing lines changes behaviour in the medium and long term—perhaps in the short term.

Chair

In short, isn’t it a bit old-fashioned?

Layla Moran

Is it a bit old-fashioned? Should we still be doing this?

Jonathan Slater

The difference between Amanda as the head of a non-ministerial department in front of you, and me, as the head of ministerial Department, is that she gets to express her views unencumbered by Ministers—

Chair

Watch out, Ms Spielman, he is after your job.

Jonathan Slater

—which is a jolly good thing, without fear or favour, and I explain Government policy because I work for Ministers.

Chair

So what is Government policy on writing lines? You must have been prepared for this one. I am sure half a dozen civil servants were beavering away to work out what it was before you got here.

Jonathan Slater

The Government do not express a view on the benefits or otherwise of a particular approach.

Chair

Mr Slater, you would get an Oscar for your performance.

Jonathan Slater

It’s just a difference. If we were doing each other’s jobs, I would express my own view and she would defend Government policy.

Layla Moran

Coming back to the point about measuring behaviour, in Ofsted reports there is a general view of behaviour. Would you say that your measurement of good and bad behaviour over time is robust enough to make value judgments about doing lines, for example?

Amanda Spielman

We did not make a value judgment about doing lines, but we have seen in reviews done for DFE and in our inspection reports that clarity and consistency of application and support by schools for all their staff is very important. That typically needs to be explicit and consistent, not variably or casually enforced, and pupils need to understand what will happen, and when, if they infringe the rules.

Layla Moran

Teasing out the point of the role that Ofsted plays in school improvement, is there a place for the gathering of that data and the spreading of best practice? Do you consider that Ofsted’s role, or is that someone else’s role in the system?

Amanda Spielman

We do a considerable amount of survey work. In fact, to the point that Mary Bousted made, it is one of the pieces that I, too, regretted had been partly squeezed out of the Ofsted model in recent years. I have significantly increased the research team so that we can carry on doing the kinds of survey reports that people have found so valuable. We are consulting with the sector, and have consulted in a number of places, to put together the research and survey programme that we will publish shortly.

Layla Moran

So is there a survey report that suggests that doing lines helps to improve behaviour? Do you see what I am trying to get at?

Amanda Spielman

It was an example of the kind of thing that is found in some of the strict behaviour policies, but the important point is that there is a great deal of public criticism of heads who decide that their school needs a firm behaviour policy, and I am very uncomfortable with seeing people piling in to condemn them.

Layla Moran

Moving on to, just before the main report, the comment about working-class families and communities, do you not accept that the judgment that Ofsted gives those schools can be seen as unfair, particularly by heads and teachers in those schools?

Amanda Spielman

Yes, I recognise that there is a perception. The difficulty is that it is not necessarily wrong. For example, it is well recognised that schools in white working-class communities in coastal towns face many challenges. They have a greater difficulty with recruiting and retaining staff and they do not have a culture of aspiration from parents. There are many reasons why it may be harder for those schools to be effective. The difference depends on what you think an inspection measures. Our overall responsibility is to measure standards of education, which I take looking from the point of view of a parent—“If I am looking at school A and school B, which do I expect my child to have a better experience in?” That is rather different from judging in which school the leadership team is trying the hardest. Schools in different circumstances may have different levels of challenge to run. We recognise that. That is why our leadership and management judgment is actually the better indicator of whether there is a concern with the team. However, unless our responsibility is changed to being primarily about measuring the quality of leadership, rather than the quality of education, we can never perfectly reconcile the two, given the difference in circumstances that schools find themselves in.

Layla Moran

Finally, to Mr Slater, can you see how this is possibly causing a vicious cycle with schools? They have a difficult cohort, they then get lower grades and then middle-class parents don’t want to send their kids there. How do we break that cycle?

Jonathan Slater

Well, it’s complicated and has a multi-faceted answer. There are a couple of things. That is why we announced the programme of opportunity areas, based, among other things, in coastal areas.

Layla Moran

But not in the north-east, which has a large number of schools that fit that criteria.

Jonathan Slater

Sure, but we decided to start with six, and then another six, to make sure that we were spending the money wisely and well and that we were learning from it and growing as we did so. Equally, it is important to take full account of the intake, as you say. The Department made a very important move a few years ago from the lead indicator being attainment—the proportion of kids getting a particular number of GCSEs with good grades—to the progress 8 measure, which is designed to take account of intake and the progress that the school has made. It is not perfect, and we continue to seek to learn and develop as we go, but those are two examples.

Amanda Spielman

Just one thing there. Another point is that the picture that one sees is quite significantly different if one looks at schools that have been inspected under the current framework, rather than looking at the entire history, including the schools that haven’t been inspected for seven, nine or 11 years and which were often inspected under past frameworks that paid much less attention to progress.

Layla Moran

Let’s now deal with the issue of there not being enough inspectors. Mr Coffey, didn’t you know that bringing the inspectors in-house would cause a problem, because there weren’t enough of them?

Matthew Coffey

In 2015-16, when we set about—

Layla Moran

Surely that was entirely predictable?

Matthew Coffey

Well, what was predictable was the number of inspections that we needed to do. We planned to do that number of inspections. We also realised the number of inspectors that we needed. It was also a challenging fiscal year for us, as it was for everybody. Part way through the year, after we set all our plans out, like every other Government Department we had to find £6 million of savings in year. The only way we could do that, because of our full-time workforce, was to not engage those people who we engaged on a casual, daily basis. That fewer Ofsted inspectors were coming through the system was absolutely fine, given that weren’t going to be doing as many inspections as originally planned. However, we were very clear that we were in the luxurious position of being able to choose the very best and most available inspectors. We took a clear policy decision to increase the number of serving practitioners on our inspections. About 48% of those who applied in the first wave got through, but as it turned out, that was sufficient because of our desire to meet the requirement of saving £6 million.

Layla Moran

What is the latest position?

Matthew Coffey

The latest position is that we are fully resourced and fully staffed with Ofsted inspectors. We have used our experience of 2015-16. We have trained many more to lead inspections. It was really good to hear from the NAHT earlier that in terms of the feedback from headteachers there are no problems with the calibre of inspectors that come through. I suspect that is because such a high number are serving practitioners. We have 166 Her Majesty’s inspectors focused on schools and we have 1,500 Ofsted inspectors who are focused predominantly on schools.

Layla Moran

Are all of them now completely trained up?

Matthew Coffey

Yes, indeed they are. There was a challenge, but, as I say, it was eased by the £6 million in-year saving. We wanted to take the best inspectors through. When we took them all through, in total there were sufficient, but they were not all in the right places. We are a structure of eight different regions, so in the north-east, Yorkshire and Humber, there was always a challenge. In the south-west, there were more inspectors. Over the last two and a half to three years, we have been able to put that right with highly trained and competent inspectors.

Layla Moran

Ms Spielman, how concerned are you that 45% of inspectors have said the workload was unacceptable?

Amanda Spielman

We know, and when I came in I knew that the short-inspection model as first introduced was creating considerable problems. It had not entirely been anticipated quite how intense it would be.

Chair

Was it Ofsted that shaped the short-inspection model?

Amanda Spielman

In conjunction with the Department in the context of the expected spending programme, a profile of spending reduction.

Chair

So you were forced into it, but you shaped it.

Amanda Spielman

Yes. The intensity of the work and the uncertainty that the immediate contingent conversion created added up to an unacceptable workload. We recognised that. We consulted a number of people on how to iterate the model to get to something that would fit better with the sector and with inspectors so that we could continue to build, ideally, a virtuous circle of inspectors finding it rewarding and consequently providing good input to the sector. We consulted twice last year to get to the right iteration. It was put in place at the beginning of this year.

Layla Moran

Can you give examples of what you have changed to make it better?

Amanda Spielman

We no longer make conversion automatically immediate if we are not sure that the school remains good or if we think it might be outstanding. We convert only if we have serious concerns about behaviour, safeguarding or the quality of education, otherwise we come back and visit the school again inside the five-year statutory requirement, so that a full inspection is completed a little later to leave the school with some recommendations for what it needs to do to be comfortably good and to give it time to put that right.

Layla Moran

How long has that been in place for?

Amanda Spielman

Since January.

Layla Moran

So it is relatively new.

Amanda Spielman

Yes.

Layla Moran

Of the schools that have been inspected that you then thought needed to be moved in category, how many have been re-inspected in the six months or so that we are talking about?

Amanda Spielman

It would be quite unusual for them to be re-inspected as quickly as that.

Layla Moran

Presumably there are schools in that category that will go up, so they would want to be inspected quite quickly. Equally, I worry for the schools that will go down, because that is another year that the children are in a school that is not actively—

Amanda Spielman

Can I take the second one first? If we have significant concerns about a school, we can and do convert immediately when necessary. In a relatively small number we have—

Layla Moran

How many?

Matthew Coffey

1% at the moment.

Layla Moran

1% of all inspections at that point?

Matthew Coffey

Yes.

Layla Moran

That’s very low.

Matthew Coffey

It’s about 20%—

Layla Moran

How many in numbers? How many schools are we talking about? I’m struggling with the scales. You can write to us if you prefer.

Matthew Coffey

I’ll write to you with the true figure. The interesting point is that 20% of those inspections are identified for a full inspection section 5. But, as we started it in January, they are just coming in this term to now be inspected fully. We can give you the data on those, and tomorrow we will publish our official statistics as well, which will have all those conversions.

Layla Moran

You don’t want to give us a preview? Go on.

Amanda Spielman

I don’t think we can.

Layla Moran

You are not allowed to.

Chair

I think that would be a breach of something.

Amanda Spielman

It would. At the other end of the scale, we recognise that for some schools it is disappointing not to be able to have a full inspection that they hope will result in an outstanding grade as early as they would like. We have to apply our resources where the risk and the need are greatest. Schools can ask us to inspect early, and if we have capacity in the schedule, we can endeavour to do that.

Chair

But up to five years is a long time to wait either way, as Ms Moran has highlighted. Presumably that is because you have not got enough money to go in any sooner.

Amanda Spielman

Indeed. We have a very finite resource, and we have to put it where we see the most need.

Chair

But the worry is, for anybody, including the school, and the parents who are looking at that information and making choices partly on the basis of it, that the school could be going up or down and they would not know for five years.

Amanda Spielman

I understand that, but we work to the statutory framework, which is inspection within five years. Within that, we try to prioritise based on all the information we have around data on academic performance and other kinds of risk and complaint to triangulate and put up our capacity.

Chair

Mr Slater, do you think it is acceptable that when a school is inspected on a short visit, and that raises concerns that it may go up or down a category, that information is not available to other people—that the long-term change of category is possibly not made for up to five years—given that resources kick in for certain schools if they go to a certain level?

Jonathan Slater

As Amanda says, Parliament has decided the frequency with which schools get re-inspected. They get inspected within five years. That is a decision of Parliament, which is—

Layla Moran

But Mr Slater, “within five years” could be six months. It is less than five years, not at five years.

Amanda Spielman

Can I clarify one point? It would be a maximum of two years between one of these new model short inspections, where we say that the next inspection will be a section 5, and the next inspection, because the short will be some time after the last full inspection that gave the judgment.

Layla Moran

So it is within 24 months?

Amanda Spielman

Yes.

Matthew Coffey

We are working on an average of good schools being inspected through the short inspection methodology every four years.

Layla Moran

But the point is, Ms Spielman, you could do that faster if you had more money?

Amanda Spielman

Yes.

Layla Moran

That is helpful for everyone. I am glad to hear that you are at full capacity, but we understand from the Report that you are still losing inspectors. Given the pressures on schools today, how confident are you that you will continue to be able to recruit inspectors from schools in future?

Amanda Spielman

You can imagine that that is one of my top priorities. Last year, we made it a top risk on our strategic risk register. We have put in place a big programme of work. We discussed it very extensively with our board. The changes to short inspections that we consulted on and have now made were very much in response to inspector feedback. The results so far are cautiously encouraging. Inspector turnover is back down to just about where it was in 2014-15 before we put the short inspection in place. In the staff engagement survey—we take careful note of the civil service staff survey every year—I think Ofsted comes 11th out of about 100 Government Departments, and our school inspectors are about in line with the Ofsted average. Turnover is concerning, but I do not think we are in an exceptionally difficult situation, although we do need to put particular effort into ensuring that we continue to move things in the right direction. The training that has been discussed is another thing that is helping us. That was something I chose to put in; I wanted to broaden out the training that inspectors get. We have substantially increased the concept of what inspector training should be, and I am very pleased with the feedback I have heard, which I am getting from a lot of quarters. In fact, I get people coming up to me at every event I go to and saying, “How do I get to be one of your Ofsted inspectors?”

Chair

But Dr Bousted pointed out that if you are in a challenging school it is harder to release yourself or your senior team to go and be an inspector.

Layla Moran

I was curious to know how many of your inspectors are in schools that are not good or outstanding, given how good that professional development would be for an RI or special measures school.

Matthew Coffey

That is a really interesting point that we have been working with the Department on—how can we get more serving practitioners from multi-academy trusts to work with us in a reciprocal way.

Layla Moran

Do you have that data? Again, could you write to us with it?

Matthew Coffey

I can write to you. I have just written to the Minister to give an update on how that is going. All our inspectors—the 1,400 I mentioned—are from good or outstanding schools. That was an initial criteria. We also identify when somebody leaves and goes to support a struggling school. We do not take them away, but we accept that they probably want to focus on the challenge that they have in their school at that moment.

Amanda Spielman

One point to add there is that we pay the school for our Ofsted inspector time, so they can provide cover as necessary.

Layla Moran

Turning again to the length of inspections and the 78 inadequate schools that were not re-inspected on time, what do you say to the parents of children in those schools, Mr Slater? Can you assure them that the schools are improving enough within the timeframe before the re-inspection?

Jonathan Slater

The division of labour between Amanda and me—it is important to get this right, given that I work for politicians and she doesn’t—is that we set a statutory framework within which inspections have to be done. It is a five-year thing. At the next level of detail down, she is accountable to you, not to me, for her targets.

Layla Moran

True, but what I am trying to get at is, who is responsible for actually making sure a school improves? Ofsted plays a part, but not the whole part.

Amanda Spielman

The authority responsible for a school is either its governing body, which may be a school-level governing body or a MAT governing body, or a local authority. Every school has a body that is responsible for it.

Jonathan Slater

If a school fails its Ofsted inspection—if Ofsted finds it to be inadequate—the responsibility transfers to the Department to do something about it. If it is a local authority-maintained school—we discussed this in our last hearing—the school will turn into an academy.

Layla Moran

Do you accept, Mr Slater, that it’s really muddled? I am referring to figure 5 in the Report.

Jonathan Slater

Sorry, what page is that?

Layla Moran

Page 21. There is an excellent picture, as ever. On school accountability and improvement—you would think the two go hand in hand—there are so many different bodies. Mr Slater, are you sure you have your head around this? I’m sure you do, but can you explain it to us, because it is very muddled? What is the purpose of Ofsted in school improvement—not in inspection, but in accountability and improvement?

Julia Kinniburgh

As you say, there is a complex landscape. The first thing I want to say is that the Secretary of State has recognised that. At the NAHT conference in May, he made a statement in which he said that he wants to be clear that we need to clear up some of this, and he made a statement about setting out some principles for accountability. Those principles were about clarity and transparency, and about different bodies’ respective roles. This diagram is absolutely about that. Ofsted’s role is to be the independent body that can look at a school and give an independent judgment about how it is performing. There is then—

Layla Moran

But it’s a bit hit and run, isn’t it? They go in, give a judgment and leave, and they are not accountable for what happens next.

Julia Kinniburgh

What happens next will depend on the judgment the school is given. If it is given one of the top judgments—

Layla Moran

No, we understand that. We are talking specifically about the 78 inadequate schools that were not re-inspected. My question was, how do we know that those kids are not left languishing in inadequate schools, and that nothing is going to get done as another inspection gets delayed to 30 months?

Julia Kinniburgh

When a school is inadequate, the responsibility passes to the Department. If it is a maintained school, we look to find a sponsor academy for it. If it is already in an academy trust, we look to re-broker it. That is where the responsibility transfers.

Layla Moran

But from our recent hearings and previous NAO Reports, we know how difficult that is. Perhaps Ms Spielman would like to tell us about that.

Amanda Spielman

If I may, I will address the circumstances of the 78 schools very briefly. The definition that the NAO applied is slightly narrower than the one we use. In fact, a third of those schools were inspected in the 18th or 24th month after the original inspection. The NAO were looking for inspection by the date of the month, but we were counting to the end of the 18th or 24th month following the inspection, so it is a matter of a couple of weeks. Another third were inspected in the following two—

Chair

This is a cleared Report.

Amanda Spielman

We did explain this; it was discussed. I am just explaining that the NAO applied a slightly narrower interpretation of our handbook than we apply ourselves.

Layla Moran

Are we not splitting hairs here? In the end, parents don’t care which definition is used.

Amanda Spielman

If I could carry on—

Chair

It is still a long time—18 months.

Amanda Spielman

Two thirds of them were inspected very shortly after that window, within a couple of months. A quarter were cases that related to imminent school closures where we had been notified of the closure, so we did not proceed to inspect because there is a risk of wasting public money inspecting a school that is closing at the end of a term. There were about 10 cases over five years—so about two schools a year—where exceptional circumstances, for example around re-brokering in progress and delayed inspection—

Chair

Could we go back to that bulk, which you talked about being inspected within two months? That rather demonstrates the splitting hairs on the date, because it still took up to two months in some cases to get them inspected—two months after the deadline.

Amanda Spielman

Our handbook is not that precise. It does not say, “Must be inspected within 24 months of the date.”

Chair

You are going back to procedure. Surely we are talking here about the quality of education in schools for pupils.

Amanda Spielman

We are very focused. We keep all these schools in our programme. We are constantly reviewing the situation, checking what is happening with these schools, and having them in our line of sight ready to inspect. Where it sits—

Layla Moran

Sorry to interrupt, but I really want to try to understand this. Are you in constant conversation with the schools during those two years?

Amanda Spielman

No.

Layla Moran

So who is? Who is checking that these schools are improving? Two years in the life of a young child is a long time.

Matthew Coffey

We have eight regional directors in Ofsted, and this is the one thing that exercises them more frequently than anything else. They know all these schools. They know that an Ofsted judgment of “special measures” or “serious weakness” will trigger the DfE to take the action that Julia has just set out. With all good intention, we do not just sit back. We will watch and we will see. If there are delays in that re-brokering, we will not hesitate to inspect that school. We can provide you with case study examples where, yes, the date might have been breached because we were fully expecting a transfer of responsibility to happen in that school at a given date and, for whatever reason—land or governance—it did not happen, and my regional directors will not hesitate to go and inspect that school.

Layla Moran

Are there examples of schools that fall in that category—that have asked to be inspected earlier, feeling that they were now ready—and you could not go back and inspect, because there was not the resource? That is loaded, because I know there is at least one.

Matthew Coffey

I would want to check the data. It does not surprise me, particularly if the school is a maintained school and does not want academisation, or whatever, and parents get themselves together. I have certainly come across examples of where there has been a request, but I go back to Amanda’s point that we are charged with balancing scarce public money; we have to be really careful that we spend it entirely appropriately.

Amanda Spielman

We don’t inspect to order—at a school’s request. We take account of requests, but we do not guarantee to inspect. We also have to keep confidentiality about exactly when a school will be inspected. We do not inspect by arrangement.

Layla Moran

I have a final question on this set of points. Ms Spielman, you can speak freely, as Mr Slater is envious of.

Jonathan Slater

I’m not sure I’m envious; it is just a difference.

Layla Moran

Or maybe not. You can speak your mind. What would your ideal inspection cycle be for schools? If you had as much money as you wanted, how often would you go into most schools—exceptions to one side?

Amanda Spielman

That is a difficult question for me to answer without climbing into the Minister’s space. It is important for me to remember that Ofsted’s job is to inspect—

Layla Moran

But the Minister is not an educationalist. He is making other decisions. I just want your opinion.

Amanda Spielman

Most people seem to think that it is reasonable to expect a school to be inspected during a child’s time in that school. I have not come across many people who think that five years is too short a gap between inspections.

Layla Moran

Would you like to have it more frequently than that? Is five years too long?

Amanda Spielman

When we set up the short inspection model, with the more limited assurance that the short inspection model sets out to provide—it is a different kind of inspection—we aimed for a shorter gap. That did not prove to be operationally sustainable. At the moment, we are aiming for every four years, to leave a space for these follow-up section 5 inspections in the cases where we think that is the right next inspection.

Layla Moran

Thank you. Finally, Mr Coffey, how much does an inspection actually cost?

Matthew Coffey

£7,040.

Layla Moran

So at the time of the NAO Report I understand that the NAO had come up with its own figure for that. Is that a figure that you had before and did not share?

Matthew Coffey

We had a slightly different methodology, but we came up with the same answer. The challenge from the National Audit Office was that we did not have that figure to measure year on year. Our discussions have been such that, in 2015-16, a very large proportion of what Ofsted delivered in terms of inspections was contracted out under a single contract to three organisations. When we brought that in-house, we took 111 people under TUPE into our respective back-office support.

Layla Moran

Do you have a handle on this now?

Matthew Coffey

Yes, we do, but it is clearly part of our operational strategy to ensure that we can continue to delve down into the data—not only Ofsted’s own data, but working very closely with other regulators. We benchmark very well against CQC in terms of back office.

Layla Moran

Using what data? The NAO was very clear in paragraph 2.2 that you do not have reliable data on measuring your own efficiency.

Amanda Spielman

I think the NAO had two concerns. One is that the costings are done off our budget rather than being reconciled to the final outcome. We are happy to accept that, but our budget and outcomes normally are pretty close to each other, so we do not think we have been working with bad information. The other is that quite a lot of our costs are allocated across remits, so assumptions have to be made, and there is a degree of arbitrariness in deciding how the time and cost of all the different back-office teams who do work for schools, social care, early years, FE and skills should be allocated.

Layla Moran

When you do a benchmarking against other inspectorates, do you know that you are using the same methodology? Otherwise, that benchmarking is pointless.

Amanda Spielman

Yes, we did quite a significant piece of benchmarking work last year. We used Deloitte and did some benchmarking against CQC and the Food Standards Agency.

Chair

Can you give us an example of what you found out when you were benchmarking against the CQC?

Matthew Coffey

Just in terms of the amount of spend on the back office, we are very aligned in the proportion for complaints, for the support of inspectors and for inspections. We are heavier in our customer contact centre than it is, and we are doing some work to understand the technologies that it uses.

Chair

When you say you are heavier, do you mean you are spending more?

Matthew Coffey

Yes, per head. Similarly, in data and insight, it is heavier. We are taking a different approach, and we are using an awful lot more technology. We are working closely with them to see how they can benefit from the investment—

Chair

Can people ring up Ofsted and make a complaint?

Amanda Spielman

Yes, out of our website.

Chair

I recently had cause to do a bit of mystery shopping, and I was told that it was Government who set Ofsted inspections, by the person who no doubt was from some outside agency on the end of the phone. I decided not to beg to differ, because I thought it was probably not worth having the argument with that individual, but you might want to know that that happens. Secondly, I was told to put it all in writing. I am an MP and I can put it writing, but an awful lot of people would not be able to do that. What happens if someone has a complaint and is not able to articulate in that form?

Matthew Coffey

We would expect to be able to engage in a discussion with them and understand better what the complaint was. I am sorry that that happened. We do not contract any of that out. They are all Ofsted employees. I am happy to take that complaint separately.

Chair

I might raise that. So you are telling me loud and clear that if you are not able to write very well, or English is your second language and you are not confident to write, you could raise these issues directly with Ofsted through some phone line.

Matthew Coffey

You could do. It is important to say, on Ofsted’s responsibilities for receiving complaints about schools, that legislation states that complaints should be made in writing. We would want to assist anybody that we could, but that is not a complaint about Ofsted—that is a complaint about schools. That is just what the legislation says.

Chair

Yes, that was the point.

Layla Moran

One final question on efficiency. I am looking at your response to the NAO Report, which states, “We are confident we compare well against other school inspectorates internationally,” which the NAO concedes it did not look at. What grounds are you basing that on?

Amanda Spielman

Looking at total budgets, money per child and money per inspection, at the high-level data we have on the number of inspections in other inspectorates and internationally, and at Ofsted historically—we have got some good information for Ofsted going back 15 years or so.

Layla Moran

Mr Slater, is there a way of delineating efficiency as value for money per inspection, in terms of the money put into school improvement? Have you done any work on that in the Department?

Jonathan Slater

Obviously, I read the Report with keen interest. I was struck by the fact that Ofsted had managed almost—you have explored this before—to fulfil all the inspections it was supposed to, within a significantly lower budget than it had previously. In so doing, to quote from the Report, 44% of heads “said that the inspection had led to improvements” and “71% of respondents agreed”—

Layla Moran

There is a large proportion who do not think it leads to improvements.

Jonathan Slater

Absolutely true. My point is that this survey data—the assessment of cost per inspection over time—is the sort of assessment we use.

Chair

The point of Ms Moran’s question is that there is a difference between inspection and school improvement. That is the key thing. The evidence we heard before is stuff we have had in writing. Inspectors come and go, and there is not really a school improvement relationship.

Amanda Spielman

Chair, may I say something on this? First, as you may know, Ofsted’s responsibilities were adjusted a number of years ago, so we don’t have explicit school improvement responsibilities. Inspection serves a number of purposes in the system, one of which is to provide assurance to responsible authorities and the Government that intervention is not required. Another is to provide schools with constructive advice that helps the management to improve, and another is to provide classroom teachers at a subject level with advice, feedback and thoughts for improvement. Lastly, but most importantly, it provides that for parents. As inspections have got briefer and smaller, the first purpose—assuring Government and the responsible authorities that the school is above a certain line—has gradually come to be a larger and larger part. On the other parts—I have a lot of sympathy with this—we have done focus groups with teachers, for example, who tell us that they feel somewhat excluded from inspection, because it is now very much a leadership conversation. It is about discussing the leadership’s evaluation of their performance and triangulating that with data and some observation of, and discussion about, the school, which is nevertheless very far short of a full review of all aspects of a school.

Chair

The simple question is, do you think that is good enough and would you like to go back to a place where you have more opportunity to provide advice, including one-to-one feedback?